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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Chris Bruno
Welcome back everybody to the Restorative Man podcast by Restoration Project. My name is Chris Bruno, one of the hosts here, and I am super excited for part two of a conversation with my lovely wife, Bruno. Good to see you. Yeah, hi. Welcome back. Today we're going to dive into really the conversation around mothering sons and the postures, the explorations, the partnership between
Beth Bruno
Thank you.
Chris Bruno
the mother and the father in raising boys. So, Beth, glad to have you back.
Beth Bruno
Yeah, thank you. You know, our son is 25 years old.
Chris Bruno
Don't say that, that means we're old.
Beth Bruno
But you know, I was just, I was reading something that I wrote about him just, he was just a couple years ago. So he had already left college, was in a different state, was working. And I just chuckled because some of my fears, my thoughts, it sounds so cliche, but I was worried about the same things I used to worry about when he was six or seven years old. Like, are you eating anything other than pancakes?
Are you making friends? Are you happy at the end of a day? Are you lonely? Like still concerned. And I say cliche because, you know, I know my mom is the same way and I'm 50. so yeah, like, my goodness. But it's so true. Like as a mother, as, and perhaps as a father, like our concerns for our sons don't actually change a whole lot.
Chris Bruno
No, don't. We're still worried that even as a 25 year old man that is eating right, making friends.
Beth Bruno
Yes. So anyways, we're talking about all stages, I think is my point. Whether you have a five-year-old boy and you're just starting on the journey really of raising him to be a young man or whether you've already launched him. So much of this is actually the same.
Chris Bruno
Mm hmm. Yes. Well, as as we talk often in Restoration Project about the rites of passage journey, right, especially as we're talking about boys today, that it is the father to find the man within the boy and to call him forth. That is the rite of passage, right? There is a man that God has put inside of every little boy and it is the father's task.
to explore, discover, name, invite, create spaces for all of that to bring that man out of that boy so that as he enters into manhood, he has a sense of who he is, who he was created to be. He has the blessing of the father and all of that. there's all the language that I just used was very father focused. And it would be a travesty to have
it only be about dad and to not be about the very important process of a mother's role in her son's life as well. And so that's what we want to talk about today. So Beth, when you think about your journey with our son, your journey in the rites of passage, you know, that I was giving leadership to, but you were very much involved in like, are some of the first things that come to your
Beth Bruno
Some of the first things I picture is how much our son, and I believe pretty ubiquitous for all boys, is that their world, the first 10 years of their life, is very, very feminine. All of his teachers at school, his Sunday school teachers at church, even some of his coaches, honestly, were women.
I am the one typically that was home more often when he was home. Our moments of interaction and engagement felt there was just more of that as well. so we have a very, the world of women is the world of the boy, that first part of his life. And so I remember that being one of the biggest shifts that we talked about.
of how to bring the boy out of those spaces and how that was not a statement against me, but it was a necessary movement for him to locate himself in the world of men, to belong there, to find identity there, to see himself there. It required a separation.
Ironically, think our intentionality in creating that space mirrored a developmental stage where boys are pushing against moms, against the feminine to differentiate themselves from that world. And so what he started to exhibit on his own mirrored what we were starting to do intentionally. we say all that like it was this
you know, beautiful, logical, you know, thing we put in place. It was brutally hard.
Chris Bruno
hard.
Yes. Say more about what was hard for you, right? Because you were so, like you said, so much a part of his life and then he starts to push away and push out. Like, what was your experience with that as a
Beth Bruno
Yeah, I mean, not he's the first and like it's all brand new. I don't know all of this then necessarily, but what I'm experiencing is aggression, anger. think at the time I might've said, you know, the school day was really difficult. The safest place is here at home and with me. So I received the brunt of all of that, you know, pent up anxiety and social pressure and
Well, that all might be true. That probably is also true. What I didn't understand was that, he's actually going through all of the right developmental stages here. And yes, it comes out as aggression and anger toward mom or toward everything I have to say and everything I cook and everything I ask of him. But, but really what's happening, right, is that differentiation, but that's how it felt. It just felt like I thought we were
I thought we were buddies. And now all of a sudden I feel like the enemy. And literally can say or do nothing that doesn't elicit a tantrum or fury. I remember, I don't remember exactly how old he was, but I remember some interchange occurred and his room was in the basement.
Chris Bruno
and kind of push.
Beth Bruno
And he removed the mattress and the box springs from his bed and pulled it up the stair, basement stairs to block the door so that we couldn't get down there. And we weren't even trying to get down there. It wasn't until like hours later, I think that I noticed, this is what he's done. But just need, he needed that kind of angry, you know, physical attempt to block me from his life.
And I also don't think I understood hormones were a thing. I wasn't prepared for the male hormone to kick in at that stage of his life and what that would again mean for me as his mom.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, I mean, I can imagine and so speak to this, but I can imagine that the boy that you were so connected with and close with that when you started to feel and you've used the word aggression, you've used the word fury, you've used the word anger, like, and so that may be the case. And also just this sense of like, I need you to go like I need more space. need you to go away.
I need to be able to have what's happening inside of me and my body to fully be like on fire or whatever it is that's happening inside of me. And you're asking me to extinguish that.
Beth Bruno
You're saying I as in our son was.
Chris Bruno
Yes. I, yeah, the boy is experiencing that fire and he's pushing against you as the mom who's trying to understand and trying to care for and trying to be with and trying to create a safe space for after school. And he's just like, I don't want to do that. I just want to feel the fire inside of me.
Beth Bruno
Exactly. So true. And I think that's why we start to see young men make bad choices because there's a fire inside that they don't know how to extinguish in safe ways or in smart ways because that's another thing, right? They're actually fully developed up there in that frontal lobe. And so they're making dumb choices. I love our friends who ask their son to be smart and his stupid.
Boys are just, yeah, so yes to all of what you were saying. Which makes me think about, you know, as that age coincided with you starting a rites of passage for him when he turned 12. And we started to have more kind of understanding and language around all of this for us. Again, when we talk about posture, not prescription, but one of the postures that we began to take was
a posture of space that I wanted to grant to you and him away from me and the world of women. And intentionally granting that space felt really important.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, I mean, even just a moment ago, you used the word extinguish the fire. And I feel like that is a feminine understanding of that, right? To extinguish the fire. And I'm like, no, we don't want to extinguish. We want to channel the fire. We want to give it a direction. We want to give it some sense of like, and so in your stupid be smart, like just like you said, Hager's
Beth Bruno
Yeah.
Chris Bruno
Here's what you do with all of that energy that's now come online. Here's what you do with these things so that it is like unto goodness instead of unto destruction. Right?
Beth Bruno
No, that you're totally right. Like, yeah, in my world, fire ruins things. It destroys things. It burns things. It is unmanageable, scary, hard to be around. And I think that's part of the challenge for moms is that our methods of, you know, eliciting good behavior or obedience or even connection
that worked for 10 years, stop working when there's a fire in your presence. And so how do we need to adjust even in our understanding of what the fire means and like you said, channeling it instead of extinguishing it. And one of the things that worked for us was to create the posture of space. That for me to step out of some of those
Chris Bruno
Let's see.
Beth Bruno
conversations or discipline or expectations communicated like, cause all I want to do is extinguish it. And you were able to invite it to go in a different direction.
Chris Bruno
And this is where the partnership is necessary between the mother and the father because the mother at this stage needs to give the space and then the father needs to step in to that space. what ends up happening is that if those first 10 years, you know, just as an example, are spent far more with the mom and then all of a sudden the fire shows up and dad's also used to not necessarily being as engaged and involved in the boy's life.
If he's not gonna, if dad's not gonna show up in that space, then all we have is a fire burning in the basement, right? That she's given space to need space from. And that's the partnership. I think that's so important is for dad to actually step in and go, okay, I can take your fire. Cause mine's actually bigger than yours. And I'm gonna teach you how to contain it and direct it so that it can be unto the goodness that God has placed inside of you.
Beth Bruno
Yeah. Well, and until I did that, you know, our interactions got increasingly strained and you know, I found that at times when it felt impossible to talk or he had no words and I was like striving for connection, I would go toward, well, I'm just going to tell you things that you need to do or that you haven't done. I'm just going to keep on kind of an attempt on my part to connect all it sounded like to him.
was micromanaging or nitpicking. And so I noticed our relationship becoming even more strained. actually stepping out and creating space salvaged our relationship and allowed then me to have a different posture. this was, and I write about these things in the 10 year update in the back of Man Maker Project, kind of a chapter for moms.
I talk about a posture of space and then a posture of touch. So when I'm no longer, you know, coming at him with all of that micromanagement, seeking connection, and I'm allowing you to kind of enter into some of those spaces, Ivan can focus on the other two postures, touch and delight. And those, feel like because I did that,
Chris Bruno
Hmm.
Beth Bruno
We have a relationship today.
Chris Bruno
Okay.
Beth Bruno
So our sons need our enjoyment, mother's enjoyment and delight of him because we're the ones who will model what that looks like for all future relationships with women. They need to see utter delight in our eyes, the ways in which they bring us, you know, smiles and enjoyment and pride and...
Touch as well, like healthy touch from a woman starts with mom. And so to be able to show affection, connection in that way felt huge. And so in the absence of perhaps my space in some of those harder conversations or in some of the experiences that you were creating with him in the world of men, I filled spaces with touch and my delight in very pointed intentional ways.
throughout his teen years. And like I said, I feel like that is what saved then and created what we have now.
Chris Bruno
that is so, so good. And I see it, I mean, just as a 25 year old, even now, like seeing the two of you just sit on the couch, there is something beautiful that's there. And that would not have happened if you had tried to continue to fill all the space the way that you had.
Beth Bruno
Yeah, I think it's hard for moms to have that future vision. I think they worry. In fact, I've heard women express a real fear of what will be on the other side. If they grant that space, if they, you know, have the dad do a whole rites of passage year that she is not hugely a part of, like what will be true for her and her son on the other side.
And again, we can't prescribe that if you do A and B, then you'll get C. Like we can't guarantee anything, but I do want to encourage moms. Like there is more for you and your son on the other side. I do believe it's possible. And I do believe it's a partnership, right? Dads, and maybe you can speak to this. What does it look like to partner with mom? What does it look like to
be in it together? Where does a dad invite her into the posture of touch and delight? Where does a dad encourage her, hey, remember we talked about postures of space? Like, what does that sound like and look like in a healthy co-parenting relationship?
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Well, I have some thoughts to that, but I want you to speak to that too. The first thing is that the rites of passage for boys and the rites of passage for girls is ideally, and I know there's situations where this might not be the case, but ideally a co-created experience between mom and dad. That there's, it's not like.
I'm deciding what I'm going to do with my boy and then you Beth, you're deciding what you're going to do with our girls. No, that it's, it's a co-created space where we are, what do we want for him? What are the ways that we want to talk? What are the experiences that we want to have? What are the other men that you as the mother and as a woman trust with the heart of your son?
And not just me determining that, but for us to be doing that together. And then intentionally lay out a plan, intentionally lay out like, okay, so what do we do in this situation? And it's not what do you do in this situation, but what do we do so that there's this continued, like, I'm not just standing there at the top of the stairs reminding you, you told me you were gonna do space, right? No, it's the sense of like, we have a sense of togetherness from the very beginning.
that grounds then the child, boy or girl, in the parents giving guidance to this process. And though the primary parent in the rite of passage is going to be the same gendered parent, it is still this collaborative co-partnering that is happening between us.
Beth Bruno
So, yeah, you know, all of that, I'm just thinking practically, you know, when you're parenting young kids and it's a very busy stage of life. If your kids are involved in anything, more than one thing and you have more than one kid, we get it. It's a lot. I think we can't underestimate though, overestimate the importance of planning to make any of this actually happen.
You can't be intentional without intentionally planning and setting forth kind of the vision of what you're talking about. And so that was a really important kind of rhythm that we developed early on was looking a year ahead and calendaring things out and getting on the calendar. This is when I'm going to do this with him or this is
the trip that I would love to take and here's how we're going to save for that trip or here's how we're going to earn extra money for that trip. Here's who I want to invite to be a part of that, another man, for example. And so just really getting on the same page requires sitting down with one another and getting on the same page. And so whether that's a long morning, a whole day, an entire weekend, I think establishing that rhythm as co-parents is really important.
to do anything of what we're talking about.
Chris Bruno
Yes. And I just want to, I mentioned there's all kinds, that's an ideal world that you get to do that. And there's all kinds of reasons. There's families with special needs kids that take up a lot more mental bandwidth and emotional bandwidth. There's families that are now, you know, the parents are no longer married to one another. There's a whole variety of reasons that might be a challenge. And like, we would just want to encourage if, if you're in one of those situations,
to still have the intentional thoughtfulness and invitation to the degree that is possible. Like push it to the degree that is possible. that's going to be better than just you try to go your own. So Beth, I want to ask you, like, what was it like for you when we were walking through this rites of passage journey for our son? And just to be clear, like a rites of passage journey starts
but it doesn't necessarily end. because if it's, you know, ideally in that 12, 13, 14 year old range when, you know, puberty is hitting for those boys and we gotta help them figure out how to channel that fire, right? In those moments. It's not like when the year is over, the rites of passage year is over, that all of a sudden he's a man. Okay. So let's just be clear on that. But what was it like for you during that season to be sending him off?
Beth Bruno
Mm-hmm.
Chris Bruno
to whether it was to me with me whether it was to another man that we had you know kind of tapped on the shoulder and asked to help What was it like for you as a mom?
Beth Bruno
There was, there's some fear there. You know, there's a risk, think, depending on the variables at play, the who, the what, always felt a little, I was always on the edge of a little bit of fear. I think being able to see what the experiences or conversations meant for him, even if it was
little nuggets of words around it, or just I could read his face. It always felt affirming in the end. I think the biggest thing for me was in Man Maker, the various aspects of manhood became for me, you know, we talk about file folders that we're creating for our kids, but at age 12, 13,
I mean, they don't necessarily know what that actually looks like in life. They're starting to gain some of that definition. The file has been labeled. It's in the filing cabinet, but they will continue to add to it their whole lives. For me as a mom, it felt helpful to be able to kind of pull out excellent action from the file cabinet and just reference it.
when I'm cleaning the living room and the couch cushions come off and there are a thousand candy wrappers shoved into the corner where he sits and three pairs of dirty smelly socks to just be able to reference excellent action. And for it to almost stand alone, like he knows exactly what I'm saying. We do not need to have a big old conversation about it. And those sorts of things became.
scaffolding that I could lean on also. that, you know, just became part of our vernacular at home. And also, I think for me to recognize that I do not expect that to be a very thick folder at age 13. He needs more experience. He needs his own kind of categories for what that's going to look like in his life, how that's going to play out, what he'll face.
that will require that of him and the older will grow over time. So to even have that mentality was helpful also when in so many ways, I mean, to call the boy, call forth the boy at age 12 or 13 where you feel like you're still a boy. But to know that it's the beginning, we're beginning to create all of these definitions for our kids. That all was really helpful for me.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. And it's fun to even now today with these boys that, you know, have gone through restoration project things to be able to pull out that mental file folder and just say a few words and have it be like, ⁓ here we are. I know what you're talking about. And that's the scaffolding. That's that mental structure that we're trying to build in to go like, if you have fire inside of you, let's direct it towards some excellent action. Let's direct it towards.
some courage, let's direct it towards some, you know, the building of the kingdom of God. Like this is where you take all of that inside of you and apply it.
Beth Bruno
And to that end, the rites of passage process is ongoing for the boy. It also ought to be ongoing for dad. Taking your son to base camp boys at age eight and beginning to introduce some of these aspects and then returning several times as they're in your home around experiences that continue to deepen those aspects.
once they've launched, know, once they're out there to continue to create intentional time with one another and revisiting those aspects. Like all of that is an ongoing process for the parent as well. Yeah.
Chris Bruno
Well, yeah, ongoing process for their parent and even in the parent's own life, you know, like when I'm starting to make these definitions in my mental file folders for him, I'm going like, ⁓ crap, like I need to pull some things together here in my own excellent action if I'm going to talk about it with him. you know, and also like reflection on my own story. How can I give to my son something that I never received myself? And, and this work in my own life as a father was prompted.
by the work that I wanted to do with my son and it became something that I was doing for my own self in the process as well.
Beth Bruno
Yes. exactly.
Chris Bruno
Well, it's a whole other podcast potential, but all of this is brought up just like, so all of the men in Restoration Project themselves are sons. And so what, know, some of the reflection around what would it look like for me as a son to reflect back on my mother and how she was with me or wasn't with me. What some of that experience was, you you mentioned differentiation, like what that
Individuation, did that happen? Like all of that process, think is going to be an important conversation for the future.
Beth Bruno
So, well, and if I could just throw in, you know, what we talked about last week about, you know, girls finding themselves in a very masculinized fatherly figure of God, you know, it's been equally difficult, I believe, for men to find the other good parents, the mother in that same masculinized fatherliness of God.
And so where can men experience some mothering from God by embracing Rahmana? God is a womb like God. And there's so much mothering image around God in scriptures that we don't talk a lot about. But for men, where can healing happen? Around the story with their own mother by discovering more of that side of their own God.
Chris Bruno
Yes. okay. Yes. We'll talk about that in another episode or maybe like having different episodes. So yes. So good. Right. So the Fierce and Lovely Basecamp, the Man Maker Basecamp are coming this summer. Beth, you will be one of the guides at the Fierce and Lovely Basecamp. I will be one of the guides at the Man Maker Basecamp. And so
If anything in these last two weeks has resonated with you as a listener, we would love to invite you to bring your son, bring your daughter, bring yourself to these experiences for ⁓ deeper conversations like this, for some shenanigans with your kids in some really fun spaces and to build some of those memories. And so we'd invite you to come and see this summer. So Beth, thank you for being here on the podcast again. next time, guys.
Beth Bruno
Thank you.