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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
We tend to say, here's the 99 things you need to do to turn this valve instead of here's what a valve is.
Mike Coffey:And
Amy Rosellini:the next time we meet, let's talk about what you do with this valve. Next time we meet, let's talk about what the valve will do when you do that thing. And so giving people just enough information that they can handle at that time and creating other systems within the workplace where they can learn that, not just when they're sitting in a conference room looking at a PowerPoint.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative, Bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow, rate, and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at GoodMorningHR.com.
Mike Coffey:According to the Association for Talent Development, firms spent an average of $1,283 per employee on workplace learning in 2023, totaling more than a hundred and 1,000,000,000 with a b dollars. However, anecdotally, most of us would agree that a lot of workplace training is not as effective as we need it to be. And according to Gartner, sixty four percent of managers don't think their employees are able to keep pace with future skill needs. And worse, 70% of employees said they haven't even mastered the skills they need for their current jobs. Joining me today to discuss why training often fails and how organizations can fix it is doctor Amy Rossellini.
Mike Coffey:Amy is a human resources consultant with over two decades of experience specializing in organizational learning and human capital strategy. Since 2013, Amy has led RLT Impact, a consulting firm offering fractional CHRO and learning services. Amy holds a PhD in information science from the University of North Texas, and she also chairs a CEO advisory group in North Texas where she meets monthly with a peer group of CEOs to help one another tackle their most important business challenges. And she serves as an adjunct faculty in the business schools at UNT, SMU, and the University of Dallas. Welcome to Good Morning HR, Amy.
Amy Rosellini:Thanks so much. It's a lifelong dream to be here, and I'm so grateful to have the opportunity.
Mike Coffey:Well, I we met at the APNA conference, I think, in San Diego last fall, and I go to so many conferences. And it's rare that a conference that's someplace in my wheel or a presentation at someplace in my wheelhouse, you know, people leadership stuff really blows me away, but the stuff that you shared there, I think I went up to you after the conference and then emailed you. I really wanna do you know, get you on, and it took us several months to get this done, but I'm glad you're finally on the podcast. So I said a hundred and $1,000,000,000 with a big o b, in training, and it just doesn't seem that a lot of companies are getting the ROI that they want, from that money. Do you think that number's accurate?
Mike Coffey:I mean, you know, or is is there is that a is that impression that training isn't giving us what we want accurate? And if so, where do you think we're failing at it? You know,
Amy Rosellini:I do think the number's accurate. I I was able to serve a CHRO in a few different organizations, and our average spend per employee was a thousand dollars. The stronger the culture, the the higher that number went. So for it to be a little over a thousand dollars, 12 hundred dollars per employee on training, that that number's not surprising. And then I think when it comes to ROI, unfortunately and sadly, putting out the training, you know, maybe what we're measuring is did we do it?
Amy Rosellini:Did they attend a training? Yeah. Is that we we we did it, and so it must be successful rather than really understanding at the beginning when we introduce training what is the measurable, how do we determine success, and I think that's a lot of what's missing out there.
Mike Coffey:And so when we're talking about these budget numbers, this is actual not this isn't knowledge transfer from a supervisor to an employee sitting at a desk or let me show you how to do this. This is more structured, you know, organization development kind of formal training. Is that what we're talking about?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. In my experience, it's more it's it's absolutely formal training. It's either sending somebody off-site or maybe the dollars and cents put into an internal training program, vendors brought in, consultants, things like
Mike Coffey:that. But I can tell you from the employee relations issues I've been involved with with clients over the last thirty years, I think the training from that manager to that employee, just whether it's in a conference room, across a desk, alongside one another, I think that kinda sucks too a lot of times. And, you know, I did the training. Why don't they get it? And, you know, and and it's always the employee's fault.
Mike Coffey:You know, I I hate you know? I I well, I say I hate those supervisors under the bus because it's not their fault. They weren't trained to do it well. They weren't you know, we it's it's it's our standard drinking game here on the podcast if, you know, we we somebody's good at a job, so we make them a supervisor without ever giving them the training and and tools to do the job. There we go.
Mike Coffey:So those numbers are right. Then why do you think it's failing? If we're if we're just not if it's not working, why is that?
Amy Rosellini:Well, so let's talk about maybe that informal piece that you just mentioned of the supervisor sitting right across from the person. They're telling them everything they need to know. And if you're not willing to throw supervisors under the bus, I'll throw my mom under the bus if that's fair. Why not? Yeah.
Amy Rosellini:I had dinner with my parents. Listening.
Mike Coffey:So
Amy Rosellini:She's I doubt it. I doubt it. She's not big in the HR world. I did dinner with my parents last night, and she was talking about another family member. I won't name them just in case.
Amy Rosellini:She was talking about another family member, and she said, well, are you giving them them advice? Are you telling them what to do? And my response was, when's the last time you did something because someone told you to do it? Right. And and so I don't think it's that different in the workplace.
Amy Rosellini:I think supervisors have positive intent. They wanna help their employees. They're trying to do what's right for a team. But at the end of the day, they don't have the tools to know how to change behavior. And so I think we're putting money into, well, let's let supervisors train them.
Amy Rosellini:Let's get supervisors to tell them. Let's train the supervisors on telling them in the right ways. But at the end of the day, we learn by doing. We learn by failing. We learn by experiences.
Amy Rosellini:So having a supportive culture, having recognition in the right places might be better spends of our money to help those supervisors and how do I give them the experience to learn this instead of how do I tell them what they need to
Mike Coffey:know? So what do you think the things behavior wise that affect how well we conduct training or how well people receive training? You know, so much of the workplace if everybody was robots, we could just write the code and just get it done. But, you know, we bring people, you know, come into the workplace, and they're just they're a hot mess. So how does behavior how does, you know, people's just their natural behaviors affect how they receive training or how they provide training.
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. So so twofold. Right? So if we're just talking about the trainer themselves, I think it from the company standpoint, they're measured on, did I get all this content out? Maybe we're trying to fit so much content in a short time frame.
Amy Rosellini:I've certainly been in trainings where they said, well, hold on. I just need y'all to listen so I can get the rest of this out because you need to hear this, and and y'all are asking too many questions. We don't have time.
Mike Coffey:Right.
Amy Rosellini:And where people are learning the most is the questions. So the other side of this coin is when employees want to know the information, they are more likely to change behavior because they are more likely to accept the knowledge that is shared with them. You're less likely to take on knowledge you didn't ask for. You're more likely to do something with knowledge that you were actually inquisitive and wanted to know about. You know, we live in a world where we can access whatever information we want at any given moment, and so that just in time information is what works best for a lot of folks.
Amy Rosellini:Instead of just get in here, sit down for six hours, let me tell you what you need to know. I think that's where the struggle is is maybe how we compensate a trainer is make sure you struggle is is maybe how we compensate a trainer is make sure you get all that information out, but how an employee learns isn't necessarily how we're training those trainers to speak.
Mike Coffey:And companies have trainers that they bring in from the outside, and they have internal trainers. I've always, you know and I'm the guy who on occasion is the outside trainer who comes in, but I've always had a bias towards that internal trainer who understands the company, understands how what I'm training right now is how it's relevant to the organization's culture. What's your take on on those two, inside versus outside?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. So I'm I'm very similar. When companies ask me to come out and do a training one time, I price it in such a way that you really don't want me to do that. I can you know, money's money, and I do have children. So Right.
Amy Rosellini:I gotta send some people to college here. So I'm willing to do what I need.
Mike Coffey:Probation fees. And so, yeah, I've got yeah.
Amy Rosellini:There you go. There you go. And so what what I I believe, and I just spoke with a company this morning, a little larger organization, is I think maybe initially they were looking for you'll come in and train this. And, ultimately, where we landed was I'll come in and help develop the strategy and help facilitate, but, ultimately, let's put your leaders in front of people as much as we can. It might not be for an entire training.
Amy Rosellini:It might not be for the entire program. But if we're building a leadership development that's, let's say, eight months long, I'd like your executives and your leaders to get in front of them as much as possible. I certainly have companies that say, you know what? Why don't you come in and continue so you become a part of our culture? You become a part of who we are?
Amy Rosellini:And so it's one of those two ways I prefer to wait work. Either I'm alongside those executives and those leaders in the company, or they are bringing me in on a regular enough basis that we're not we're not basing everything on one training class. We're continuing to meet with the leaders, to help train the trainers, to help create recognition programs and other ways to get that knowledge to become part of who the company is.
Mike Coffey:And, I mean, you were talking about leadership training, and I always say what we call the soft skills are really the hard skills, and I think those are really important. What do you think the do you think that training is more or less effective than, like, hard skills training, you know, putting tab a in slot a, that kind of work? Or do you think it's equally is there a disconnect on both, of them?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. There disconnect on both, but I'll answer it actually in a way maybe a little different from what you're asking so you can tell me to clarify if if you don't like this answer. I think how we market and how we talk about the soft skills is what makes people discount them, so they are harder to train. And when we say, hey. You need to come here, and we'll teach you how to build trust.
Amy Rosellini:That's that's initially, I'm like, no. I know how to I'm trustworthy. I'm honest. I have integrity. And so we kind of build the trainings wrong where we say, you don't have this thing, so you need to come learn it, instead of let's find out where people are.
Amy Rosellini:Let's do some assessments. Let's those people that are really great at it, let's put them in front of others. And so I think sometimes it's just how we strategize from from go and how we package it.
Mike Coffey:So if what we're doing is right now is not working and we're not getting the ROI well, let me first ask. Do most companies really know what the r what ROI they're really expecting when they spend when they spend all this money, or is it just, you know, rainbows and unicorns and we're gonna do this and sing Kumbaya at the end? Or, you know, do they do they have, you know or do you see companies that have, you know, hard expectations? Okay. We're gonna see employee engagement go up by x percent, or we're going to see retention change, or we're gonna see our cost per hire reduced or whatever.
Mike Coffey:Do you see those numbers out there that companies go into, or what are they looking for when they say they're looking for an ROI?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. I would say they're looking at those numbers more once I've been in there. No. Before this in there. But coming to companies raw, where they maybe haven't had a lot of learning strategy or training development strategy, they measure success on how many hours did we train, how many hours did an employee receive of training, what we what you just said at the beginning, how much money do we put into training.
Amy Rosellini:So that's a lot of what I think the focus has been in the past, and I think what we're trying to come to is how do we measure a successful training, and are we assessing and auditing and determining if we have a successful training programs instead of just did people sit in a seat for a certain amount of hours. And so there there's that opportunity to look at cost per hire, to look at your retention rates, to look at what behavior changed or how performance management, you know, maybe they needed less performance management, maybe they were more motivated, maybe they were became a better learner after they've attended things within the training program. And I think that's still new and on the cusp of us measuring those pieces to associate with training, I I don't think that's become standard yet.
Mike Coffey:And so our our traditional training model is we're all called you know, where everybody's in the conference room of some sort, and there's a speaker talking to the audience, and they've got their 8,000 PowerPoint slides with 1,500 words on each one. And they go through it. And the presentation's over and they leave. But it's still even if there's follow-up and but it's still follow-up, you know, presentations, it's still that one speaker talking to the audience. Is that model flawed, or is is there is there a way to change that dynamic that makes it makes it more effective?
Mike Coffey:Or how do you how do you approach that?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. I feel like you answered that in your question. I think you know that that Yeah.
Mike Coffey:I read your paper. Okay. Full full full disclosure. Amy wrote a very detailed paper. I I guess that was was that your dissertation?
Amy Rosellini:Or I don't know which paper you you read.
Mike Coffey:The one about knowledge transfer, it was I had to look a lot of the words up. There were a lot of words with more than four syllables, and I I still
Amy Rosellini:looked at it. Use multiple syllable words in all of my presentations.
Mike Coffey:I give them a big
Amy Rosellini:you should know.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Okay. So okay. So my question, tell me, feed it back to me so that, it makes sense.
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. For sure. So, knowledge transfer happens in my mind and in in the model that I I wrote about when there is behavior change. So meaning if people understood what you shared but they didn't do anything different after the training, that was an unsuccessful training. And I think we're in a world where, at best, we are doing an assessment of, did this person understand what the training was about?
Amy Rosellini:Did they have a new understanding? And I think we check the box and say, they have a new understanding. We did it. Successful. Done.
Amy Rosellini:And instead, what we should be saying is, did this person do something different in the workplace as a result of the training that they attended? That's really what we're looking for. And that isn't a the solution for that is not we need new training, though that's a piece of it. And having more experiential learning, not having somebody stand and talk to you, but instead having ways for you to learn through failure, through growth, through experiencing different things within a training environment, or within, work with your supervisor where you're doing on the job learning. Those are great ways.
Amy Rosellini:Also, creating recognition programs, creating step by step ways where people are learning a little at a time. We tend to say, here's the 99 things you need to do to turn this valve instead of here's what a valve is. And the next time we meet, let's talk about what you do with this valve. Next time we meet, let's talk about what the valve will do when you do that thing. And so giving people just enough information that they can handle at that time and creating other systems within the workplace where they can learn that, not just when they're sitting in a conference room looking at a PowerPoint.
Mike Coffey:Building one competency or one piece of a competency at a time and building it that way. Yeah. That's that's certainly how how we do it. We've for, all of our analysts, they've got common you know, we've got a whole for each of the sections in our company, we've got competency models for each of those roles and where they can start in any any section, but then we try to cross train a %. But everything is one little piece at a time, and we measure it.
Mike Coffey:We make sure you know? And they don't ever go do anything that's unsupervised. You know? We're dealing with, you know, people's lives, their jobs, the you know, our clients' expectations until they're checked off that everything that their peers have fed given feedback consistently that, yeah, this met expectations. This is what we were looking for.
Mike Coffey:And then we let them loose. But and then before that, though, they've got that safety net that their peers are looking at things, and things aren't gonna go straight to a client or to a consumer or anything like that until it's been cleared. But then once they're once we take that safety net away, they know and we've seen actually somebody will be at 94%, ninety three %, you know, quality level. And when we take the safety net, it goes up to 98, 90 nine, because they know the safety nets. And and, you know, we know to expect that now.
Mike Coffey:But we teach them one little piece at a time, and and for us, that's what's been, you know, really successful. And it's it they know where they're going. When they see the competency model, they know how it fits in how we serve our clients and all of that. So telling that story around it, I guess, is important.
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. Another piece you're doing right, if I can comment. If I can comment on how well you're doing, if
Mike Coffey:you don't mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stop.
Amy Rosellini:Thank you. No. Is is the the peer review. So having, like, a peer assessment or a peer feedback because we tend to, in training, do a lot of self review, which we know is 50% inaccurate. Then you do manager review, which the manager, if if they're not doing it right, now I have to do more training.
Amy Rosellini:So it benefits me to say that they're doing it right, whereas there's nothing in it for peers. Peers, it's like, if you don't do it right, one of us is gonna have to do it. We need you to learn to do it right. They have a vested interest in being more honest in that audit and in providing that feedback. So I just kind of wanna applaud and recognize that's a really positive way to kind of get a feedback loop going is with peers.
Amy Rosellini:That tends to be the more dependable way to get feedback and get information back to somebody who's trying to learn something new.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And my my people get every day when they come in, they see their quality numbers from their peer reviews from the day before. Plus, they've got internally, we we've got a system where they can go see everything that got that got flagged. So they can learn from that experience. But then everybody each team has their own quality.
Mike Coffey:And so I like I said, I've got a vested interest in making sure that my team's quality is high. So I'm gonna help this person to get up to the competency level that we need them. And they're still peer even after they're self approving, they're you know, they can release work to the wild. We still do some a a smaller set of peer review on every day. So everybody is still seeing the bits and pieces and making corrections or or suggestions along the way.
Mike Coffey:But all of this sounds like so much work for the supervisor. It'd be so much easier if I could just check a box. How do you change that supervisor's mind that this is an investment that that's that they need to make the time to do?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. And so that is where you look at, again, recognition and reward. How are we compensating that supervisor? If ultimately, the better they train people, the higher people will perform, which means the higher their department will perform, which means the higher the company will perform, what's the supervisor skin in that game? So whether there's a system of rewards, whether that's tied to a bonus or compensation of some kind, I think it's really looking at how do you reward people for for positive behavior.
Amy Rosellini:And so so, typically, a training solution is not just a solution in a classroom. It's much broader, and it really touches kind of all of that people strategy.
Mike Coffey:And that means redesigning that supervisor role too. I mean, if if supervisor's role is really just supervise or, better yet, lead people and they're sucked into the daily work of getting the job done on a daily basis, and they have task oriented roles that are taking more of their time than the people leading roles. I think that makes it really hard for a supervisor to to spend the make the connections, spend that level that much time at that level working one on one with employees, paying attention to the dynamics of what's making somebody successful or what's getting in their way.
Amy Rosellini:Right. And if we're making assumption that most supervisors are that player coach role where they're doing the work as well as, you know, trying to help supervise and lead the work, in those cases, they are probably being more rewarded for the execution. They're probably getting more recognition, more positive reinforcement on what the job they're doing because you feel really valued when you do a job well. And you were promoted to supervisor because you were probably one of the best at doing that job. So if that's where I feel valued and that's where I feel recognized, what what the company is actually doing is affirming, keep doing that.
Amy Rosellini:Don't keep supervising. Because with supervising, it's a hard job. You're probably hearing a little bit more negative reinforcement and a little bit more coaching and redirection. And so it's hard as a player coach not to lean into the player side when that's the reason you got promoted in the first place.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And we just often don't don't train them to set that expectation and what we measure. And like you said, you know, if we're measuring number of hours of training delivered or that we sent our people or we spent our budget or whatever it is, you'll you'll get what you measure. Right? And those those those more difficult measurements about true productivity, engagement, whatever you're trying to fit whatever problem you're trying to fix, and that's always a problem too, is some executives go to some conference someplace and they hear a speaker and they think they get excited about that topic and bring that speaker in to do the training because I think it's gonna, you know, motivate the troops, but there's no there's no answer about what what problem we're trying to solve here, how do we you know, what's the measurable issue.
Mike Coffey:It's the same thing with AI, though. Right? I mean, I'm I'm hearing from people, for the last two years whose CEOs are saying, I wanna see AI used in HR. Okay. Well, how?
Mike Coffey:What what problem do you wanna see solved? And and so I keep and people keep coming to me because I speak about AI at a lot of these conferences and saying, okay. So what we should what what should we implement first? And I'm like, first, you figure out what your problems are and figure out what your biggest problem are is, and it may not be an AI solution. Let's just let's just figure let's fix our biggest problem.
Mike Coffey:Maybe technology is the answer. Maybe it's a people. Maybe it's training. Just work on your biggest problems. Don't, you know, don't just go you know, as soon as you say I'm gonna solve something with AI, every you know, if you've got a hammer, everything that looks like a nail, don't go that route.
Mike Coffey:So we've gotta get we've gotta get those expectations correct about what we what we wanna solve, what the problems are. And let's take a quick break. Good Morning HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been pre approved for one half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information visit goodmorninghr.com and click on research credits.
Mike Coffey:Then select episode one eighty eight and enter the keyword training. That's t r a I n I n g. And if you're looking for even more recertification credit, check out the webinars page at comparativeinfo.com. And now back to my conversation with Amy Rossellini. So we we do our training and we have maybe some measurements going up.
Mike Coffey:What is what does that follow-up process look like? What is the feedbacks, you know, what does that cycle look like?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. I thought you had a good example of, in your training having the feedback loop with peers. And so the first is how are we measuring training? So before you ever even decide what a training should be about, it's exactly like you said. You have to ask the question, what do we expect to change because of this?
Amy Rosellini:And so then that question is if that's a behavior you expect to change, I've seen companies put in place an audit where somebody actually measures behavior change. So somebody from that organizational development team is going and observing, whether it's in a automotive you know, a car dealership, whether it's in a factory floor, whether it's in an office environment and just tracking, you know and there's plenty of IT tools that can track kinda screen time and where people are utilizing their time and which sites they're visiting. But where do we expect people to change behavior? And if you just did a CRM training where you expect productivity to go up 20%, and you can track CRM usage, and you can see, like, how many you know, what higher percentage of customers are we putting through, or what how many follow ups as a percent are we putting through. And you can see, are we seeing that that increase that we plan to see in efficiency, and in utilization?
Amy Rosellini:That's where again, I think a lot of companies are missing. They didn't determine what that metric was before they started the training, so they don't know what they're measuring after the fact.
Mike Coffey:And we've all worked with them. We've got people who are knowledge subject matter experts in how we used to do it or the way we do it right now, and convincing them that we need to make a change in how we do it, that they need to go to a training, maybe learn some new skills. And I'm convinced this is could be another drinking game here. The the skills you have right now are are not gonna be the skills you're gonna need in your job in four years, five years, and and the job's gonna be different. The technology's gonna be different.
Mike Coffey:The things that we we we're trying to accomplish or, you know, the mission may be even different. So, but there are people who think they know it. And how do you convince those folks to not just attend the training, but to really participate in it and be open to the idea that maybe there's some value here beyond, you know, what we've done in the past. And that's probably the problem is so many companies have a long history of dog and pony show training that does doesn't really accomplish anything. So how do you convince somebody who's either got that stale mindset or that, you know, well, yeah, I've been through this before, idea.
Mike Coffey:How do you convince them to really invest themselves in that training?
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. So there's a couple examples, maybe some here's what not to do and here's what to do. When it comes to what not to do, maybe not say, hey, employees. We want you to learn empathy, so you need to come here and learn empathy, and we're gonna teach you empathy. Nobody that doesn't sound fun.
Amy Rosellini:I don't wanna go to that. That doesn't sound like a good idea. And, again, we talk about, like, our phones where you pick up the phone because you wanna check the weather, and all of a sudden, you've gone down a rabbit hole of politics that you didn't even know you wanted to go down, because you have some marketing geniuses really saying and selling to you on something that you didn't know you wanted, and then you start learning it and you start wanting to know more about it. So I think some of it is even how we package training that it we we because we look at it as a check the box and we don't look at it as how do we sell this as an opportunity for growth, I think that's one piece of kind of changing how we package training and how we look at it. And then a second piece that is, in my opinion, related to that, instead of requiring training, offering training, giving people opportunity.
Amy Rosellini:Why not get a MBA in this topic? You're not gonna get an MBA at the end of it. Like, you're not actually going to have a new degree, but you're gonna be really solid at what leadership means at this organization. You're gonna be really solid at what being a supervisor has become at this organization. You're gonna be really solid at how to sell in this company and providing people, like, hey.
Amy Rosellini:You wanna move your career forward? Here's ways to do that. And allowing people that optionality or that customization where they get to choose and they get to select when they walk into a training. Again, if you package it really well and give people that option, I think you will know if your training is successful by how many people are choosing to go do it rather than how many you're requiring to go and do it.
Mike Coffey:And the, you know, you mentioned empathy. So, you know, let me do that horrible sales interview process, but here's a bottle of water. Sell me this bottle of water. Sell me well, how would you if I wanted to if if we knew we had an issue that leadership wasn't connecting to people, didn't there wasn't that leadership employee connection, and I need to develop empathy. So what does that what does that sales job sound like to convince somebody that, yeah, we need to, you know, con you know, go to this training on empathy?
Mike Coffey:How would you how would you frame that?
Amy Rosellini:I love that you're asking that. So it would depend on a lot of things prior to the training on empathy of what's going on in the company.
Mike Coffey:Right.
Amy Rosellini:That leadership decided or the executive team decided that that's needed. And so something's happening, and so I'd probably start more with the problem of, are you seeing this? One that I could I could see from a supervisor level. Has it been hard going from a peer to going to a leader of your your former friends or your current friends and the people that that you've worked alongside for ten years? That, it could be an empathy training.
Amy Rosellini:Like, understanding how that's difficult for them, understanding the transition people are having to make as they reframe who you are in their lives. Like, that's an empathy training. But you don't need to call it empathy training. You call that going from peer to supervisor because that's somebody that a new supervisor is like, yeah. It's hard.
Amy Rosellini:I used to go drink with these guys Thursdays and Fridays, you know, after work every week. Am I allowed to do that anymore? Can I not do that? I mean, there's a lot of questions that that type of a training could could answer that I think how you package it and say, here's some struggles we've seen at this level. This is gonna be an opportunity for you to come for ninety minutes, talk through some case studies, talk through some things that have happened in the past and how you can learn from that, instead of saying, come learn empathy now that you're a supervisor.
Mike Coffey:Right. So I want I want you to plug your model, and I wanna get give me the big the, you know, 50,000 view, you know, foot view of the KTMM model and how a company what it looks like when a company is implemented and is, you know, getting outcomes and improved outcomes from it.
Amy Rosellini:Yeah. So the big piece is, one, certainly, there's that feedback loop. That is what it's all about. We've talked a little bit about that. But the keys are the measurements in between each phase.
Amy Rosellini:So as you decide what the company needs or where there's a gap, how are you gonna measure that this training actually fills that gap? And then the big piece, which I think is the the second half of the model that people are missing the most, how do you make sure that not only did they understand what was communicated in that training, but their behavior changed because of it? And that's the next measurement piece. How do you measure that behavior change happened? And that might be a place where they could bring in AI, and there might be a a way through the technology to see if things have happened, and you can get some automated reports, and you can understand that.
Amy Rosellini:But a lot of the time, certainly with soft skills, it's not so easy to measure as and then we get a quick report to tell us if this person has empathy now in the workplace. So there's there's engagement surveys. There's there's pieces that are out there, but it's really understanding what are we expecting from a employee's behavior. And if we take something in leadership development, which is hard to measure, that that KTMM model really says, how do you measure when somebody goes from I understand this training to my behavior is different now? And then the loop is my behavior is different.
Amy Rosellini:Now I'm better. Now I have new problems. So now how does that how do we identify those gaps, and how do we continue down that path of, okay, what are the new gaps? What do we need to train now? Now that we're training this, at the end of it, how are we measuring that they understand this concept?
Amy Rosellini:And then once they understand this concept, how are we measuring if their behavior changed because of it? And if their behavior changed after a sustained amount of time, new issues will occur. What are the new gaps? How do we go back to the beginning and and look at what the training needs today? So it's it's kind of a constant evolution.
Amy Rosellini:You were talking earlier about there's those people in the workforce that don't wanna change. They're used to doing it a certain way. I love those people. They're usually the best at their jobs. Right?
Amy Rosellini:We need those people. We needed those people to get us to where we are today. The beauty is if we can start to recognize and reward people for learning. You got us here. We need to learn new, and we don't even know what we need to learn.
Amy Rosellini:We need you to help us learn and get those people to enjoy learning rather than you you gotta know how to do it this way now. It's not about doing it this way. It's just about learning a new way and learning a new way and learning a new way and and letting that process be what makes people successful and how we reward how we reward folks in the workplace.
Mike Coffey:That's the perfect place to end it. That's all the time we have. Thank you for joining me today, Amy.
Amy Rosellini:Thank you so much. It's a lifelong dream and it's been a pleasure. I really enjoyed meeting you.
Mike Coffey:Thanks for joining me. And thank you for listening. You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghr.com or on your favorite social media channel. And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcast. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at rob makes pods dot com.
Mike Coffey:And thank you to imperatives marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time. And I'm Mike Coffey, as always. Don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week and until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.