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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
Mark Ackers: Hi everyone. Here's
what's coming up in today's
episode. My guest started out in
banking, selling mortgages and
managing high net worth clients.
Spent over a decade in corporate
sales and boardrooms before
making the leap in 2015 to start
their own business. Since then,
they've also trained over 5000
people and run and host the SME
conference, an event I'm very
much looking forward to speaking
at, and is about to begin a
doctorate focused on making
sales a more ethical and
sustainable profession. My guest
today is Jessica Williams, did
you used to be crap at sales?
Yes. How crap are we talking on
a scale of one to 10?
Honestly, I think like a one,
sometimes I have let my facial
expressions get the better of
me, and sometimes my facial
expressions say far more than I
should really. They describe me
as raw. So I'm not sure whether
that was a compliment or what,
but I'm from Yorkshire, so I'm
renowned of saying it as it is.
We've spoken about two of the
biggest killers in the sales
profession. Is need for approval
and imposter syndrome. I was
thinking, Who the hell am I to
do all of this? Who the hell am
I to be able to, you know, to
hold these positions. And I let
that get inside my head. You
said I had to do something about
it. What did you do? 75% of that
is here. And if you don't get
that sorted, it's a really dark
place to be. I got to the point
where I was doing all of that
and nothing was making a
difference. I was like, Okay,
our perception, which isn't
reality of how successful
someone else has been or what
they're doing. And I think that
can be a really, really negative
trait, and I think it's easy to
get sucked into that we're
responsible to turn ourselves
around.
If you were to start again
today, what's the one thing you
do differently to accelerate
your journey.
Hello and welcome to another
episode of The I used to be crap
at sales Podcast. I'm Mark
Akers, your host, the co founder
and Head of Sales here at my
sales coach, you'll know the
crack Buy Now this podcast is
where we cut through the noise
and the glossy headlines and get
into the messy truth about
building a sales career that
actually works, my guest today
has very much lived that
journey. My guest started out in
banking, selling mortgages and
managing high net worth clients.
Spent over a decade in corporate
sales and boardrooms before
making the leap in 2015 to start
their own business. Just
Williams, a hybrid sales and
marketing agency built on
relationships, not gimmicks.
Since then, they've also trained
over 5000 people and run and
host the SME conference, an
event I'm very much looking
forward to speaking at in
October this year. They also sit
on multiple boards. Is a fellow
at Northumbria University and is
about to begin a doctorate
focused on making sales a more
ethical and sustainable
profession. Personally, they're
also an avid runner and outdoor
explorer who's completed 13
marathons, including Ultras,
helping to raise over 50,000
pounds for charities to date,
and a mantra, business can and
should be a force for good. My
guest today is Jessica Williams,
Jessica, welcome to the studio.
How are you?
Jessica Williams: I'm very well.
I mean pressure after that
introduction, right? Do you know
what? I get a lot of good
feedback on the intros. I do
work hard on them. That's very
impressive. Honestly, I feel
like you should be my voice over
from now on. Can you rewrite my
LinkedIn profile please?
Mark Ackers: We can discuss
that. Yeah, absolutely. Jessica,
thanks so much for coming to
studio. We've had many in person
podcasts, but for a while,
there's been a number of online.
So it's great to have someone
back in the studio and sat in
the orange chairs. Chairs you
claim to be very comfortable.
Honestly, they're super comfy,
and now I know where they're
from. Thanks to your colleagues,
I may purchase one.
So we always start of a yes, no
question. Jessica Williams, did
you used to be crap at sales?
Yes. How crap are we talking on
a scale of one to 10?
Well, honestly, I think, like a
one, I think I was pretty bad.
Okay, maybe a two, one of the
things I always like to ask
I've always loved chatting to
people, but I don't think I
understood the importance of the
closing. Ironically, right? So
maybe a two?
guests, because I've got so many
I can think of personally. But
if you just reflect back on your
career, is there a particular
like Howler of a mistake that
you've made that's really bitten
you that you could share?
This a funny story. I'm
definitely quite I was
described. Actually, I did a
keynote on Friday, and I asked
them why they asked, you know,
they asked me, and apparently
they described me as raw. So I'm
not sure whether that was a
compliment or what, but I'm from
Yorkshire, so I'm renowned of
saying it as it is, and
sometimes I have let my facial
expressions get the better of
me, okay? And sometimes my
facial expressions say far more
than I should really. So
definitely I've kind of been
seen wincing, kind of in
meetings and kind of go, you
know, in quite a lot of
situations, I am better at
controlling my facial
expressions now and not saying
what I think as much. So I think
there's quite a few times where,
yeah, I've probably either said
the wrong thing and been very,
very direct, or my facial
expressions have indicated.
Stated absolutely how I'm
feeling, even though my body
language was pretty much kind of
contained, sent wrong, you know,
sent wrong emails. I did have a
situation where I signed off an
email remarkably
inappropriately, by accident,
using very inappropriate word.
And yeah, I didn't, didn't hear
from that prospect again. Or
what did you use? It was, it was
not a good word.
So let's start early in your
career. You started financial
services, mortgages, private
banking, advising high net worth
clients at Yorkshire bank. How
did you first get into sales?
Was that by design or was that
by accident?
going to be very, very honest
here with you. So I was a little
bit naughty at school and got
kicked out, much to my parents'
dismay. So I was very fortunate
to go to an all private girls
school, and my parents, I think,
had much higher hopes for me
than perhaps I yeah, I believed
in and yeah, I had a pretty,
pretty, pretty rubbish
childhood, to be honest with
you, for lots of different
reasons, and I'll come on to
that in a minute. But in
essence, I left school after
GCSEs, not on a voluntary basis,
and start, kind of didn't really
know what to do. And that's how
I ended up joining the bank,
because it was kind of a part
time cashier role. You know, I
literally started as a cashier
at the Yorkshire bank in
Sheffield and worked kind of my
way up the ladder, and realised
pretty quickly that I enjoyed
interacting with people and got
into kind of a pretty, pretty
much a sales role within two
years. So talks about the weight
of expectations of parents, I
suppose, for context, what did
your parents do for a living? So
my parents are separated when I
was young. My dad ran his own
very successful and still has a
very remarkably successful
business, and my mum and stepdad
ran a leisure business called
just Williams leisure. You'll
see where the link goes now. So
both of my parents run their own
businesses. I had a pretty,
pretty rubbish childhood. My
little brother died when he was
seven years old. Sorry to bring
the tone down, but that's one of
the reasons it's called just
Williams is named after him, and
that drove me, but it did put a
lot of pressure on me, a huge
amount of pressure, and I
probably put quite a lot of
pressure on myself to succeed as
well. And I think also that's
why I learned very quickly. And
it's something that concerns me
about, you know, the generations
that followed me, is that
ability to communicate with
anybody. So from being very
young, because my little brother
was you, was was ill, I
interacted with adults, left,
right and centre in lots of
different contexts, in lots of
different ways. So I learned how
to communicate.
I suppose just you referred him
as your little brother. How old
were you?
I was 13 when he died, right?
And he was seven when he died.
And so you're having
conversations with adults as a
13 year old, about right, okay,
yeah, from even younger than
that as well. So, you know, I
think it taught me how to
converse. It really shaped the
rest of my life, not, I'm not,
you know, I don't believe in
playing the victim in any way,
but it shaped the rest of my
life in terms of my drive, in
terms of my ability to
communicate with people, and
probably led me directly to my
to my path to sales. I can
totally understand what you're
saying in a sense of
communication, and learn to
communicate with different
people. And the skill that that
really teaches you in because
that's what it is in sales, is
the ability to speak to
different people at different
levels, at different times, and
alter how you communicate. So I
think learning that at a young
age, I can see how that's really
helped in the career you're in
today. So you've got two parents
that have got their own
successful businesses. They they
obviously want the very best
you, like any parent would what,
what career did they want for
you? So I think they wanted me
to go into the legal profession.
So I remember, though, did you
do like careers, like one of
these weird assessments? So I
did one. I did one. I remember
it came out I was going to be
like a florist or a beautician.
I don't know what I answered,
but yeah, I think there was a
there was a lofty sense that
actually, I would probably be in
the legal profession.
Ironically, my grandpa and my
mum's side set up the, what was
then the Institute of sales and
marketing in Yorkshire, so he
kind of led that. So a lot of my
and my dad's in sales, so, you
know. And I think being your
own, running your own business,
everyone's in sales, right? So I
think it was kind of natural to
me to kind of fall into that.
Maybe, yeah, I can see why we
pull towards that. And we've had
a lot of guests talk about their
parents being in sales, them
overhearing sales conversations,
understanding about commission
and what that leads to, etc. I
suppose it's interesting.
Therefore, if your parents, when
you go in the legal route, and
then you've gone down the sales
route, sometimes that can be
difficult. And I've spoken about
that, almost being a little bit
embarrassed to tell my parents
I'm in sales and I make cold
calls. Did you have that feeling
or not as such? Because
Absolutely. And it's like, well,
I was in banking, wasn't I for
11 years so, and then I think my
grandma, God, rest her soul. She
passed away last year, but she
definitely told everyone I had a
PR company, even though I've had
it for like 10 years. So, yeah,
I think there's, you know, my
dad gets it. I think, I think
they both get it, really. But,
you know, I think there's a lot
of people that still have that
negative association.
From a sales perspective, I
think the fact that it's my own
company obviously has helped
enormously. I named it obviously
after their business in legacy
to them and my little brother so
but, yeah, but I do think there
is still such a negative
association with sales.
I'm always conscious when we
talk about something, what I'm
about to say now, people
listening to this podcast will
be the same as us, because
they're listening to sales
podcast. They want to improve,
they want to learn. But really,
we can all be guilty of thinking
the profession and the image of
possession is changing. It's not
it's just our bubble. And like,
do you think it's changing a
bit, though, if you go and ask
the average person on the street
what they think of a sales
person, there is still a
negative association, isn't
that? Yeah, I think it's just
our bubble, our network, who we
hang out with. And like I say,
people listen to this podcast
will be of the similar mantra,
and you can just be guilty of
thinking the profession's
getting better. It's just who we
interact with. So we're in
banking. You worked there during
the 2008 credit crunch. What was
that like?
Really challenging. And I think
that was a really, without
sounding cliche, a really big
shift in my career and my
mentality. And you know, I
understood and I loved working
in that industry at a very
challenging time. But it became
very apparent that relationships
were really, really important to
me. And actually I developed
some amazing relationships with
with with my clients, but
because of, obviously, the
nature of what was happening in,
you know, in the crash, that we
were being forced to make
decisions that were based on,
not the relationships that we
had, but in essence, the the
industries that that these
organisations were in. And I
think, you know, that was, I
found that really challenging.
We had to make some really, you
know, we were, as an
organisation, we were massively
overly exposed in certain
markets. So, you know, we had
to, you know, my expertise was
in the in the property side of
things. So, you know, we had to
make some really tough calls. It
did, however, shift me, my
mindset massively to realise
that just because you run a well
performing business, and it
might otherwise poor performing
sector. It absolutely is all
about the individual. And for
me, it was kind of the turning
point in terms of thinking. For
me, it is about, you know, the
integrity of the individual
running that organisation, not
necessarily the sector they're
in. So, you know, it was a bit
of a shifting moment. And, you
know, it was clear that there
was a lack of investment in the
market, for the industry, well,
for the for the organisation I
was working for, and it was at
that time, or just after that, I
started doing a lot of work on a
corporate social responsibility
basis for the bank, and made
connections with the
entrepreneurs forum and started
our kind of outreach in that
field. So that was kind of the
turning point that made me
really think about my future
career and where it was going.
Because it wasn't about
relationship, it was about
ticking a box, and it was about
a sector. And that didn't sit
well with me at all. Why not?
Because actually, for me,
everything is about
relationships. You know, I'm a
massive, massive advocate for,
you know, the key factors that
make up a really strong
relationship in business or or
personally. And you know, it was
about the fact that, you know,
the, you know, obviously change
happened in a market. I
absolutely get that, but it was
the it was the fact that, you
know, the relationships that we
had, that I had with my clients,
etc, were really being tested
and compromised. And it wasn't
necessarily something that I
fully believed in at the time.
So I really struggled with
that. And when you talk about
relationship and it matters. I
think anyone listening will go,
of course, having great
relationships is only a good
thing. What do you define as a
great relationship with your
customers versus perhaps what
someone's standard definition
might be? Well,
and I suppose it's semantics,
really, isn't it? Everyone will
have a different definition for
me. You know, we as an
organisation stand for years,
and our business as a force for
good. So, you know, for me, it
is important to have that
alignment of values, and I don't
mean that in a fluffy sense at
all, is you've got to have a
similar outlook to a certain
extent. You've got to have that
trust there. You've got to have
that openness. I think that's
really, really important, and
that ability to be able to
communicate openly, that's
really, really important
integrity is, you know, hugely
important. And I think, you
know, are you working towards a
common goal, you know, so from a
business perspective or a
personal perspective, is, what
are you trying to achieve
together? And so for me, the
kind of relationship aspect is,
is a really kind of key FOSS to
my business and who I am as a
person.
And I can, I can I can tell that
by the way you've answered the
question. What was really
interesting is you use the word
Trust. And I think if you don't
have trust, yeah, anything
exactly, but what you didn't use
was the words or or leaning
towards like, being liked or
being loved. It's about trust.
It's about working together.
It's about a common goal. And
one of the things I've seen
throughout my career is sales
people struggle with the need to
be liked, the need for approval,
and that is around, you know, I
want my customers and prospects
to like me, to love me. I want
to get but as I say, You didn't
mention that. You mentioned
about trust, and do you walk
that line quite well where,
obviously you want to be liked,
right? You don't want to not be
liked by your kind. Lessons, but
trust feels like basically what
you're saying, very
literally, about two weeks ago,
finished the book The Art of
being disliked. Literally, two
weeks ago, I was smiling
because, yeah, I mean, I think
notoriously, if you you know, I
don't know what the statistics
are, but I think a lot of us are
more people pleasers tendencies
than we like to think. And I
think sales people, you know, we
have that, I'm generalising, a
lot of us have that constant
need for gratification, and, you
know, being satisfied and
getting the return that we're
looking for. But I do think, you
know, I, I run a business, you
know, I can't, I can't be liked
all the time. I don't want to be
disliked, but I don't
necessarily have a need to be
liked. And I think that's a
really difficult line and
something to say out loud,
because I think people's
perception of you, when you say
that's like, Oh, you're
arrogant, isn't it, though, if
you say, Well, I don't need to
be liked, that's like, well,
what? You're arrogant. And it's
not about that. It's about, you
know, I'm very I'm very driven,
I'm very focused, and so for me,
it's about, I'm here to achieve
what I need to achieve. Now
that's on a relationship based
approach, but it's results
driven ultimately. So, you know,
am I? Is everyone gonna like me?
Absolutely not. And I know
there's lots of people out there
that don't I'm pretty much like
Marmite because I say it as it
is, but you know, that's okay.
And how long have you been like
that, of that mindset where you
don't need to be liked
probably, I mean, my business
has been going. We turned 10
earlier on this year, so I think
that took a long time.
Realistically, I think it's
probably only in the last few
years. And as I say, you know,
I'm really conscious. I feel
like quite conscious saying it
out loud, because I feel like it
sounds really arrogant. And it's
not about arrogance. It's, you
know, the key thing that I've
learned over the last few years.
And again, I'm not suggesting
I'm perfect in any way, but it's
about setting boundaries. You
know, for me, about, you know,
I'm very purpose driven. I'm
very goal driven. I'm very
focused, and not all the time.
By the way, I had some great
white wine on Friday night, and
that was not focused. But, you
know, I'm, I'm very clear about
what I need to achieve, and I
think it's taken me a long time
to appreciate that. Actually, I
don't need to please everybody,
and I don't need to be, you
know, everyone's best friend.
And I actually can be
controversial. That's who I'm.
It's taken me a long time to
kind of the word authentic is
totally overused, I think, but I
am myself now, and I say it as
it is. And maybe I don't know,
I've earned the right to do
that. Maybe I've just, you know,
you know, I've got to an age
where I can, maybe I'm more
caught. I don't know what it is,
Mark honestly like, but I think
it's not that I'm arrogant. I
feel like I'm justifying it now
because it is. It's a strange
thing to say, but, you know, I'm
pretty confident in who I am.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, but
I don't need people to love me
or like me anymore like I used
to.
I think what's interesting is,
how did you realise that you
needed to make that shift? Did
someone point it out to you, or
was there a moment when you
thought, I'm being a people
pleaser here?
I had a couple of tough
situations that I was part of
for a long time, and had a
really tough time about three,
four years ago, which, as I
said, I've never really talked
about. Ironically, I was doing a
keynote on Friday, and I talked
about my journey for the first
time, like my personal journey,
because I can talk about sales
and marketing till the time till
the guys come home. Till the
cars come home, but I've never
really talked about my journey,
and I said it then, you know.
And I think it was a real shift
for me that I made a conscious
decision that you can't exert
your energy trying to keep
everyone else happy to your own
detriment, you know. And I use
the example of Christmas, right?
Sorry to say the word Christmas,
but, you know, and you just
like, you just try and keep
everyone else happy, and you're
like, the only person that's
unhappy is yourself. You know, I
think you get to a point where
you have to have really clear
boundaries. You have to be
confident in your own ability.
You know, you have to be able to
back that up from a credibility
perspective. I'm not just saying
everyone's confident in their
own ability, but I think it is
easy to get consumed by other
people's your perception of
other people's perception. Does
that make sense? Right? And I
think the way that social media
is now is that we just scroll
and we scroll and we scroll. And
there is a real issue with
looking at how everyone else
lives their life and our
perception, which isn't reality
of how successful someone else
has been or what they're doing.
And I think that can be a
really, really negative trait,
and I think it's easy to get
sucked into that. And so I'm not
saying I'm perfect in any way,
shape or form, but I'm very,
very conscious decision to set
boundaries and to not let that
affect me as much as it used to.
And you
spoke about having, like, a
couple of tough moments. Were
they like professional moments
with clients,
perhaps in a few of the
different roles that I, that I,
that I was part of at the time,
right?
Okay? And I mean, you are,
you're very busy, you're in lots
of different roles and non exec
positions, etc. So again, share
only what you're comfortable
with, but you had situations
where maybe being a people
pleaser has affected you, and
you've had to sort of stand up
and disconnect from if they like
you or not, because that's not
going to serve well for either
party. Yeah, so maybe slightly
controversial. So I've
definitely been appointed for
the wrong reasons to some of the
situations or some of the
organisations I've been
appointed to. And I don't say
that lightly, I obviously have a
lot of NDAs in play. So I'm
going to be very cautious in
terms of what I say, but I put a
massive expectation against
myself, and also I was appointed
for the wrong reasons. So, you
know, I think the pressure that
that kind of accumulated to get
there to result in a situation
where I actually stepped down
from everything I did four years
ago. So, you know, I think it
was very much of, again, I'm not
a massive fan of the word
imposter syndrome, but I
definitely had something if that
was the case. And I was
thinking, Who the hell am I to
do all of this? Who the hell am
I to be able to, you know, to
hold these positions and I let
that get inside my head, and
that's a really, really
dangerous situation if you let
those things get inside your
head, and if you listen, and if
you see all that scrolling that
you do, if you let it get inside
your head, it is only a downward
spiral, or it certainly was for
me. And so, you know, that was
quite a journey to recovery for
me in terms of getting back on
my feet, and I made it. That's
where kind of boundaries come
in. I was like, right? I know
what I need, you know, I think
for the first time in my life,
certainly in the last two years,
I know what I need to preserve
my energy. I know what I need to
stay focused. I know what I need
to kind of achieve, what I need
to do. And you know, I do have
lots of things on but I'm very
cautious and very protective of
my time. And you know, I spend
time with people that I choose
to spend time with
them, sales leaders. I guarantee
this, the forecast you're
looking at isn't accurate. Why?
Because your reps have deals
that become stuck in the
pipeline, things like champion
leaving not being taken to
power. Competitor enters the
deal at the last minute. They're
ghosting. You imagine if your
reps had access on demand to
support where they could get one
to one deal coaching with one of
our expert coaches. That's what
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a meeting coming up and they
want to ensure they're putting
their best foot forward. They
can book time with a coach and
prepare for that upcoming
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there's a last minute problem.
They need help moving an
opportunity forward. They can
book same day coaching with one
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your reps every opportunity to
secure the best outcome and keep
your forecast as accurate as
possible. So it's interesting.
You hit up on imposter syndrome
there, and I think we've spoken
about two of the biggest killers
in the sales profession is need
for approval and imposter
syndrome. And I think it's
really important to say, as far
as I'm aware, in terms of my
experience and the time that
I've spent in this industries,
everyone has that, yeah, I agree
to a different level in terms of
need for approval. There was a
research done by objective
Management Group. We actually
used their evaluations at my
sales coach, and the need for
approval was the number one
thing that separated elite sales
people to low and average
performers. Need for approval
from whom the prospect okay,
that need for I don't want to
ask tough questions, I don't
want to challenge, I don't want
to push, I don't want to
consult. I'm worried about
upsetting them. I'm worried
about losing the sale when they
haven't got anything to lose at
this stage. It's interesting.
But then there's that imposter
syndrome, because all too often,
sales people are selling to
someone in a more senior
position, in a role they've not
done, perhaps in an industry
they've never worked in. And you
can have that imposter syndrome,
you know? And everyone suffers
from that, but it's when you
understand that that's what's
happening, and you work on it,
you can start to overcome it. It
sounds like you've come out the
other side. And I
don't think you appreciate when
you're in it, that you're in it.
No, it's like the power of
reflection, isn't it? Is? You
can say, God, you're absolutely,
that was totally, and you can
give it that label, but
actually, when you're in it, you
don't see it, and that's the
danger. And it's, how about, how
do we ensure that people don't
get in that vicious cycle?
Because I think when you get to
the bottom, it's too late. I
mean,
in some ways, I think you almost
have to experience it to it's
like, it's like a rite of
passage, in some ways, but you
don't know what you don't know.
And until someone points it out
to you, you can't start to work
on it, and it sounds like you
had your own journey. Who's
helped you through imposter
syndrome, through need for
approval.
See, I would agree and disagree
with that. So I think self
awareness is one of the most
important aspects of the only
person in sales. So from a
characteristics like EQ and
sales, self awareness as part of
EQ is like one of the most
important aspects. So for me,
that is, like, almost one of the
top things that I recruit for is
that level of self awareness.
Because actually it's you. You
have to be able to spot it in
yourself. So yes, other people
can that can be there, and you
can have coaches, mentors, and,
you know, you can go to
conferences, you can listen to
this amazing podcast, obviously.
But I do think that it's really
important that you have a level
of self awareness, to be able to
understand actually when this is
happening to you, and when you
feel that now, when it becomes a
physical sensation. So which I
felt, where you can kind of feel
that, almost like that stress,
you know, we've been there where
you know it's a genuinely
physical reaction your body,
when you you know whether that
be fear or that be pressure. Or
whatever that is, it's not
intuition. There's a difference
between intuition and fear,
right? And you can feel that
physical you know. That is your
body telling you you know,
whereas, actually, if you you
know, if you record yourself, or
if you've got a mentor that can
kind of coach you and listen
back, you know, to certain
conversations. If you are self
aware and if you're being
objective, you can kind of say,
well, actually, why am I
speaking to that person, that
stance or that style, or
whatever it is, Am I speaking to
them on a book I've just read
vertical or horizontal
relationships? And I think for
me, it is how I got to that
journey was, yeah, I mean, I had
a pretty I was at the bottom of
that cycle, you know, I was at
the bottom of that kind of
spiral. And so I think you're
right. I don't think, I think I
think it's very difficult to
understand it, unless you've
been through it, unless you're
in it. And I was at the bottom
of it, and I was like, right, I
have to do something about this,
because this is consuming me,
and this isn't, this is not
making me good at my job. This
is not making me, you know, good
at anything, to be honest with
you. So
what did you do? Then you said I
had to do something about it.
What
did you do? So, well, this was,
I suppose, this was with,
combined with lots of other
things at this at the time,
right? So I just literally had a
bit of a long, hard look at my
life. Honestly, I had some
therapy, and I just realised
that actually, the types of
things that I was doing that was
leading to me feel, for me to
feel totally like an imposter,
and just, you know, at least
it's some pretty negative
feelings, I think, yeah, I got a
coach, I got, like, a mentor, I
got some therapy and and I quit
the thing that was making me
feel pretty
sure. So I think what you shared
there is exactly what people
need to hear like you've
identified a weakness. It's
impacting your career, the thing
that pays your mortgage funds
your lifestyle is impacting
that, and you've gone and done
something about it proactively,
and you didn't wait until it was
too late. I
mean, I was on the verge. Don't
be wrong. So I, you know, I
think, I think with anything
when it whether it be imposter
syndrome or whatever it is, you
know, we live in such a fast
paced world, don't we? Is, you
know, I journal, I run, you
know, I, I'm pretty good at kind
of, I guess, sleep, I, you know,
all the things that we think are
going to help us. And I was
pretty good at doing all of
that. I got to the point where I
was doing all of that, and
nothing was making a difference.
I was not okay. I was just not
okay. You know, I think it's
your ability to think you've got
to get yourself out of this, and
I think only you were
responsible for doing that. And
so when I realised I was not
okay, I went and did everything
I could. And, you know, it took
a while. My business wasn't any
great shape at the time because
I'd probably stepped away from
it a bit too much. We're
responsible to turn ourselves
around. And I think I
definitely, yeah, I definitely
did that. I
think that's the key. Like, no
one's coming to save you. No,
no. So who did you work with
from a coach point of view,
like, what? What was the kind of
brief that you gave that coach?
So I've had lots of different
coaches throughout my whole life
and mentors. So we've got a non
exec now in the business, and,
you know, I've got some really
sharp growth plans, so he's very
much to support me for that.
I've also got a culture coach at
the moment who is like a
leadership and a culture coach
for me. So I'm really trying to
scale my business at the moment.
And you know, you know, I
haven't done it to this level
before. So for me, it's about
really understanding who I am,
where my like, blind spots are
just in 360 degree feedback that
was fun. And you know, it's
about kind of understanding what
type of culture I want to create
in the business. So, you know,
there is a different person for
you on a coaching or on a
mentoring, on an exec
perspective, depend it on the
different time in your life,
right? Depend on the different
phase that you're going through,
dependent on your goals,
dependent on your ambitions. So,
you know, I think you have to,
and sometimes you don't have to
have someone formal. So, yeah,
there's loads of other business
owners that I like go for walks
with, or sometimes wine with. Do
you know, I mean, you just chat
and say how it is, and because
it's not, it's not all rosy.
It's really, really tough
running a business. And
actually, a lot of that, I would
say, I don't know, quote, don't
quote me on this, but I reckon,
like 75% of that is here. And if
you don't get that sorted, it's
a really dark place to be, and I
think that's one of the key
things that I've done over and
I'm getting better, I'm not
perfect at is you've got to be
able to be vulnerable, you've
got to be able to be honest,
you've got to be able to not let
the noise bother you. You've got
to be able to surround yourself
with good people and have frank
conversations, and you've got to
have boundaries, and they're the
things that have kind of, you
know, I've worked on a lot over
the
years. It sounds like what
you've done really well is
surround yourself with people
that have almost been on the
journey that you want to go on,
had the success that you want to
have, and people that you can
just be open and honest with and
have the conversation. Because
without that, you're just left
to your own devices. After more
than a decade in banking and
entrepreneurs forum. You
obviously mentioned them. That's
how that job would have come
about. Then you sat up and took
the leap to set up just Williams
in 2015 How long did you have
the idea before actually going,
I'm doing
it. Oh, you like this, right? So
I said when I was 15, I'm going
to be a CEO by the time I'm 30,
right? I had no. Idea what that
was going to be in. But I think,
you know, I was surrounded by
parents that ran their own
business, and I did one of my
modules for my math, for my MBA,
was nature, nurture,
entrepreneurism, which I think
is quite interesting anyway, but
yeah, I'd said, basically, when
I'm 15, right, by the time I'm
30, I'm going to be Chief Exec.
So I had no idea for what, or
like, what I mean I was, I only
had two staff, but, you know,
technically, kind of got it. So
when I left the bank, I did an
MBA and specialised in sales
psychology. Worked for the
entrepreneurs forum for two
years. Realised during my time
there, through a lot of the data
that they collected for people
that run their own businesses,
there were two issues that just
came up time and time again for
and this was based on businesses
that were growing and, you know,
yeah, the based on success
metrics, in essence. And the two
aspects were access to finance,
so always cash related. And
finally, returning sales people.
And they were the two things
that I think it was like, fight,
no, it wasn't. It must have been
about seven or eight quarters
just came up time and time
again. And I was like, there's
an issue here. And I was very
aware that, you know, even
though I never had an actual
sales role, as in, in the job
title, I was literally doing
that day in, day out in Bangkok,
right? And, you know, I started
talking to family and talking to
other people, and was aware that
I it just has such a negative
association compared to our
European American counterparts,
you know, the the association
with sales is just not a good
one. And I was like, there has
to be a different way of doing
it, you know. And speaking to a
lot of the owners of the
businesses, they were hiring
sales people. They were, you can
guess, this lasting less than
two years, not working out,
wasting a lot of money, and they
were just going through this
cycle time and time again, and
kind of going, Well, nothing's
changing. And I was like, well,
it has to be a different way. So
that's really when I, you know,
I did my, did my MBA at the same
time. So did and specialise in,
as I say, sales psychology. And
looked at and looked at options,
and then, yeah, set up, set up
the business and doing sales
consultancy, which obviously has
kind of expanded
and grown since then. And you've
obviously got two parents that
have got their
own businesses. Well, they
wanted one sets retired, the
other one's not now, but, yeah,
but when you're
doing that, how much did you
speak to them about this? Did
they encourage you? They try and
put you off. Do they give you
any words of advice? I
think they were like, go for it.
But, you know, I was earning
great money working in the
banking industry. It was very
ethical. I can assure you, I was
earning great money in the
banking industry. And when I
worked a lot, I did what I've
always been an absolute kind of
I've always had a very strong
work ethic, probably, you know,
from my parents. But yeah, I
think they were like, you know,
just give it a go. Give it a go.
I do know what it's awful. I
don't remember what they said. I
remember asking somebody in the
first six months if it got easy,
and they were like, No, you just
get better. I was like, Yeah, I
keep telling myself, and look
that newer every day. I'm like,
come on, you've got this.
So 10 years later, you've built
a BEC Corp, you've trained 1000s
created recognisable brands,
certainly here in the Northeast.
You know, when I've told people,
come on the podcast, they know
exactly who you are and what's
going on. If you were to start
again today, what's the one
thing you would do differently
to accelerate your journey?
Oh, do you know? I know the
answer to this straight away. I
would hire quicker and more and
more senior, and I would
outsource more. I think there's
a real issue when you set up a
business, regardless of what
you're in, what what sector or
industry, and you think, you
think you should know all the
answers, so you don't ask the
questions, because you feel
like, well, I've set up my own
business. I should know this.
And you know, you I didn't take
as many risks as I should have
done in terms of hiring senior
people. So I would have hired
quicker, and I would have
outsourced more. So What
stopped you from hindsight in
the first place, was it cash
cash flow? Right? I was going to
say, was it cash flow? Yeah,
when you say high, saying what
kind of level we talking about.
So obviously there was just me
when I set up, but I would have
hired more senior sales and
marketing professionals sooner.
Obviously, we're at a different
stage now in the business, but I
think when I first set up, I
tried to do too much,
and was it all your own money in
the business? Okay? So that also
adds a different dimension where
you've really
got to, yeah, I didn't get any
investment. And, you know, we've
pretty much, we've grown
organically. As I say, we're at
a stage where we've got quite a
lot of changes happening with
the business. Happening with the
business at the moment, so we're
in a very different position to
what we were then,
understandably, 10 years on. Was
that a conscious decision just
to bootstrap it yourself, rather
than get investment? Yeah, it
was because I think, you know,
it was the first business I had.
I wasn't 100% sure where it was
going to go. And, yeah, I think
it was probably a little bit of
naivety as well, if I'm
honest, right? Okay, so we're
hire more senior, yeah, take
some risks. Outsource quicker
and outsource quicker. What?
What kind of things would you
outsource quicker, like,
perhaps, so I probably would
have got, like a VA virtual
assistant. I would have
outsourced some of the finance
stuff quicker, yeah, and. Thing
that, you know, I think you try
to wear so many hats, right? You
know, I was used to wearing very
well, and I'd done, you have to
hit the ground running. I had a
mortgage, and I had a lodger for
just over a year, which was
just, I've got some horrendous
stories from that. I'll tell you
over over a pint. But I took a
lodging because, you know, I
earned no money, you know. And I
had we in, you know, I barely
paid myself for the first year
and a half. So, you know, it's
kind of that you just do what
you can to make it work. We
didn't have any, you know, we
didn't even have necessarily
monthly reoccurring revenue.
Now, then, as I say, our model
is very, very different, but we
grew, I think, in the first
three years, we grew up to 17
staff, which was crackers, and
then the wheels came off, and
then, yeah, it was, it was a bit
tough. And now we're kind of
back where we are now,
well, and make a success that
you have done 10 years later as
part of that journey you you
talk about, I mean, going to 17
people in three years, it feels
like you've learned some lessons
there, because I say the wheels
come off, tell us what you're
comfortable with, but when you
say the wheels come
off, what do you mean? So we
grew very, very quickly. So when
I said I didn't outsource
quickly off, do you know? I
mean, it was like that was in
the first year. So we grew
remarkably quickly. We were kind
of, we won loads of awards, we
won loads of new clients, and
honestly, we didn't have the
infrastructure to cope with it.
Obviously, I didn't know that at
the time. You know, we were just
growing at such a rate. I
appreciate it's relative. But,
you know, we were growing at
such a rate that I was very
quickly, kind of, you know, lots
of people start a business
because they like what they do.
Leading a business is very
different to starting something
when it's just you and you do,
you know. So I'm quite honest
and open about it, and saying I
was probably a little bit out of
my debt and I didn't have the
people around me to that I do
now to support that growth. And
also, you know, our clients
terms were short, we were
probably were naive. So, you
know, we were on six. I mean,
it's, I'm laughing at myself
now, going, you fool. You know,
it's quite obvious, isn't it, in
hindsight, right? So you'll love
this, and I can't believe we did
this, but how I used to be crap
at sales. I have admitted this.
So we ourselves some of our
because we worked across
multiple industries. So some of
them had, like, you know, nine
month pipelines. Like, 12 months
pipelines, our contract terms
were six months. Like, course,
it wasn't going to work. Do you
know what I mean? So, you know,
we weren't evidence in that ROI
within the first six months,
because, actually we but we
developed a really strong
pipeline that was clearly going
to drop us, you know, further
further down the field. So, you
know, it caused us a, you know,
some issues in terms of
retention rate with staff and
with clients. And, yeah, we kind
of went, this is this is not
sustainable. And it wasn't,
I think there's an important
segue here into just Williams.
So it was a sales and marketing
consultancy where people would
outsource. Ironically, the thing
that you're saying you would
have done yourself quicker is to
outsource, and
that's what your business was.
Yeah, we're always good at
telling other people, it's just
doing ourselves, right,
exactly, but yeah, so that
challenge, therefore outsourcing
sales to you. You're building
pipeline for them in a six month
agreement, but their sales
cycles
Jessica Williams: up to 12
months. Yes, what could possibly
go wrong?
Mark Ackers: It's easy to sit
here with 2020, I know, right,
and look
Unknown: back. I mean, it's
pretty obvious when you say it
out loud anyway, but, yeah, but,
but I think
Mark Ackers: part of it as well,
though, like you say, if you're
not able to hire senior people,
and you're hiring people where
everyone looks up to you, that
is difficult. And you are going
to drop balls, and sometimes you
drop the wrong ones. But I think
that's something I've always
sort of said to myself, is
you're going to drop balls, make
sure you drop the right ones,
Unknown: and it's hard. I mean,
I wish we could all do that. How
do you manage that?
Mark Ackers: Oh, didn't say do
it well. So you say the wheels
come off after three
Unknown: years? Yeah, probably
three four, yeah, talk to us,
being
Mark Ackers: the owner of the
business, being the person that
buck stops with. Like, tell us
about that. Like, what? How did
you cope with that? I think
it kind of, do you know what it
was probably, I'm saying three
four years. It was probably
about, well, no, wasn't it kind
of coincided, actually, it was
five years, sorry, because it
coincided with the the pandemic.
Don't you think? Like, like,
like, does anyone else, I think
that's like a time warp, like,
it feels like it happened like
25 years ago, but yeah, it
coincided with that, actually.
And, you know, I think
ultimately it the book stops
with you, you know, and this is
probably one of in regards to
our earlier conversation, is
where you kind of have to put
those boundaries up and you kind
of have to say, right? Okay, so
I'm gonna have to make some
really tough calls here, and
everyone's gonna like me and
everyone's gonna like the
outcomes, but ultimately, my job
as the owner and leader of the
business is to do the right
thing for the business. Now, as
a BEC core, our job is to use
our business for a force for
good. So we believe in
stakeholder equity in essence.
So it's quite different just to
a limited company, which is
limited, you know, if you, if
you're limited by guarantee,
obviously it's shareholder
equity, not stakeholder equity.
So I am governed legally. Our
articles of association are
different. So I'm governed by a
different kind of creed. So for
me, it is about our
stakeholders, every single one
of them. So you know, you have
to make some tough. Calls, you
have to change your model, and
you have to keep going, and you
have to have some amazing people
around you to be able to help
you do that. And you have to be
really frank and really honest
with yourself and say, right,
okay, why did this go wrong? And
these are not questions that you
answer in 24 hours or even two
or three months. But, you know,
I think maybe my banking
background and being relatively,
you know, I'm not risk averse,
but I'm certainly risk
conscious. Is that, you know,
I've always made sure that we
are well protected as an
organisation and well financed,
and I don't take unnecessary
risks.
Talk to me about tough calls,
tough days, what? What was the
absolute bottom moment for you,
and the toughest moment in that
period? I
think I had a week where, like,
five people handed the notice
in. That was a bit soul
destroying, you know. And we're
at the point where, as I say, we
didn't, we didn't, you know,
we've never made anyone
redundant, but we, I think the
writing was on the wall. And
that was really, that was hard,
because it's, it kind of still
feels personal rejection, you
know. And actually, in sales or
leading a business, Rejection
hurts, it does. And I think
that's another issue from a
sales perspective, isn't it,
which kind of goes to LinkedIn
with the other things that we've
talked about is that, you know,
you can't make rejection
personal, but sales rejection
and leadership rejection are
different. I know that, but you
know, ultimately, even a few
weeks later, I was like, my god,
they saved me from having to
make them redundant. But at the
time, it was like, What do you
mean? You're leaving? You're
kind of having that, like,
ridiculous conversation you had
where, you know, actually it's a
BEC, it's like a benefit that
they're leaving to the business.
But actually, if it still feels
really personal, you know. And
you know, during covid,
obviously we were, we were doing
sales and marketing for clients.
Some of them wanted to put us on
hold, you know? I mean, I
remember single handedly moving
our office into, like, a tiny,
little office myself one
Saturday, you know, what? On
Sunday, you know. And like,
shifting all the desks and,
like, you know, it was that's
quite soul destroying. Well, you
know, you're paying rent for
something for like, a year, and
no one's allowed in the office,
or whatever. And then, you know,
so lots of situations, you know,
like that. I do think people,
regardless of what industry
you're in, people is always one
of the hardest things of running
any business, regardless of
sector or anything it's it's
people that's the hardest
aspect.
Do you ever come close to just
giving up during that period? Do
you know
what? I literally had a talk
with somebody today about that
bizarre Lake because I think
it's some people call it
motivation, some people call it
focus. Some people call it Mojo,
whatever. But I think, yeah,
it's hard, right? You know, from
a cash flow perspective, from a
from a from a mental like
awareness perspective, from a
just trying to keep your head
above water perspective, like,
you know, the thing is, is about
and actually this is the same in
sales and leading a business is
you have to perform every single
day. Yeah, you have to choose to
turn up. You have to choose to
bring that energy. You have to
bloody well choose that you're
going to have a good day.
Because if you don't, you let it
rule you. And I'm not being
cliche in terms of saying that.
So that's very much similar in
sales as it is in leading a
business, because I have to
choose every day to come in and
be positive and positively
influence my team. That's a
choice. When I think you start
to waver a little bit and you
know that, you know it's not
that you let your emotions
affect other people around you,
but I think when you kind of
just think, I've just got
nothing left, then, yeah, I
think you have to question that.
But that's ability to manage
your right energy levels and
know yourself and have that self
awareness to know that. Yeah,
I've had some really, really,
kind of tough times, and I've
had some really, really, but I
don't know a business owner that
hasn't It's your ability to pick
yourself back up. It's grit.
It's absolutely if you know what
you're trying to achieve, right?
It's and that's why I'm like, I
believe in purpose led
businesses, is that I'm very,
very clear about what I'm trying
to achieve. So that doesn't make
it easy. That doesn't make it,
you know, like, I'm making it
sound easy. It's not, you know,
the punch bug in my gym. It's
like, great fun on some days. Do
you know what I mean? Like,
bottle of red wine. Love it. I'm
not saying any this is right?
I'm just saying we all have our
different coping mechanisms, and
I think the more that you know
your own you can you can be more
consistent in from sales
perspective or from a leadership
perspective, in terms of and it
is about surrounding yourself
with good people. So important,
when you say, surround
yourselves by good people,
people could interpret that
differently. What do you mean by
that?
I think it's having a mixture of
people that you can talk to
openly. So whether it be
coaches, mentors, whatever that
looks like, I think it's having
a good mixture of friends,
family around you, but I think
it's having a really good team
that will support you in that
well, that will challenge you,
but are there to positively
influence and bring the same
level of energy? And I think
that's really, really important,
that the that you've got that
purpose centred leadership,
which allows you to focus on on
the same goal in a business, and
that you are kind of dedicated
in terms of achieving that. What
I'm
definitely picking up, Jessica
is just how you have got
yourself to a place where you
will just surround yourself with
the right people, but you'll
open up, you'll communicate,
you'll share what, what's
working, what's not working.
Turn to people for advice.
Unfortunately, so many people
don't do that. They sort of live
in their own mind, and they
don't open up and they don't
share. Why do you think that is?
It's almost like you've beaten
me to my own questions. To you,
people want to hear your answer
to that.
So my take on it is, I think we
are fear, we fear perception, we
fear failure. And I think
people, yeah, I think people,
some people actually don't want
to help themselves. What do you
mean by that? So, you know, I
think some people in, as I
appreciate, this is slightly
controversial, but I don't think
everybody chooses to help
themselves. I don't think
everybody wants to actually get
out of the situation that
they're in with that mindset,
because it's protective, and
because actually that means
they'll have to deal with their
emotions, perhaps slightly
controversial.
I don't know, like I what I do
know is people show, I suppose I
didn't know where you were going
with that, if you were thinking
that people must enjoy
potentially that I think most
people do what you know,
absolutely want to, you know, be
the best version of themselves,
or whatever terminology you want
to use. But, you know, I think
it is. You know, self reflection
is really, really important. You
know, I'm a massive I ref, you
know, I reflect on everything. I
journal loads I always have
done. I have a coach that kind
of holds a mirror up for me. I
have some really honest friends.
I have, you know, people in
business that surround that I
surround myself with. And I, you
know, I don't let myself get
away with stuff. I hold myself
accountable. And I, you know,
I'm a massive fan of journaling,
as I say, in terms of the
business and also personally,
because it helps you keep so
accountable. And I think if you
don't have that level of self
awareness, it's the one thing
that I'd say, you know, if
there's another book that you
read, I read, I read loads and
loads and loads, but I have a
real desire for constant
improvement of myself and listen
to books, read books. That's one
of the reasons I'm doing the
doctorate. But I read loads of
books on emotional intelligence,
and it really changed my
perception and also the I think
we have a responsibility when we
work in a team environment, is
that how we impact other people?
And I don't think it's fair that
sometimes the way that we impact
other people, and I think if
you're not aware of the impact
that you're having on those
people, which is a negative one,
then you know what makes me
quite uncomfortable. So, you
know, I think you you have to be
I think one of the key, another
key attribute for sales people
is you have to be inquisitive,
right? You have to be curious.
That's about yourself as well.
If you think that you're the
finished article, then no one
can help you, but you shouldn't
you the minute you stop
learning, you start dying
genuinely, because you have to
be that. As I said, I know it's
really cliche, but you have to
be the best version of yourself.
And you can't do that unless
you're really self reflective,
and you look at yourself and go,
Okay, how can I get better? How
can I get to what I'm trying to
achieve? How can I help my team
get to where they need to get
to? How can I, you know, set,
you know, achieve the goals that
I want. But you have to start
with self
reflection. You've signed your
team up to another E Learning
course. You've hired a trainer
to come in and run a workshop.
But guess what? Six months
later, pipeline and performance
is still lumpy. My sales coach
turns learning into doing. We
evaluate everyone on your team,
we identify with real data the
critical gaps that are holding
them back, and then we remedy
it. We match each person to
their dream coach and provide
consistent one to one coaching
to help them fulfil their
potential and hit the number
less one size fits all,
training, more personalised
support, which results in the
growth of your team. That's
predictable sales execution.
That's my sales coach really
hitting like the key themes that
make elite sales people across
this podcast, and I'll try and
get them all. But we spoke about
need for approval. We spoke
about ability to handle
rejection. We've spoke about
trust. You've just talked about
their accountability. Spoke
about being inquisitive. You
spoke about emotional
intelligence. Like these are all
key attributes that you see in
elite sales people and leaders
really, very hard to interview
for, though, a lot of those
things, aren't they? And I'm
guessing you've had this in the
past, where you've hired what
you believe to be good people,
and then you've realised they
haven't got those traits. How
quickly do you remove them?
Oh, God. I mean, what's that old
adage that you hire high,
slowly, and you fire quick?
Something like this. Obviously,
that's not the phrase is this,
it's something like that, isn't
it? Yeah, I mean, definitely
it's. They are really difficult
traits to hire for. You know, we
do various different type of
psychometric testing. I get my
culture coach or my non
executive on some of the final
interviews. And actually, what
we've done, we've, we've hired
quite a few people recently, is
we get where, for example, a
sales manager, or hire a sales
manager with, with, with, kind
of a more senior member of staff
or a business admin have
interviewed that so they've,
they've, they've kind of aligned
the role and helped interview.
If I knew the answer that
question, I would never. Ever
have any staffing issues, and we
would be growing to the nth
degree. I think it's a really
tough one. I think you've just
got to, you know, you if they're
not right, you've got to get
them out quickly, unless you see
potential. And so I will say
that unless, unless you see,
because there's a difference
between cart and won't. So for
me, it's very much around their
if they want to get better, I'll
absolutely support them get
better. If they're a dickhead,
you get them out straight away.
I had a bit of an HR issue
because I put on my wall at
dickhead free zone,
who's head of HR for your
business? You'd be right then.
Jessica Williams: That was a
while ago now, but yeah, so
Mark Ackers: you mentioned, I
don't know, maybe a half hour
ago, about doing a 360 feedback
assessment. And you spoke there
about your goals and where
you're trying to get to. You
spoke about, I really love the
phrase, if you're not learning
your dying. Bit dramatic, but
hey, but I really like so my
question to you is, and you
probably work this out there,
what are you trying to work on?
Where's your big flaws today?
What was on surface from that
feedback, and what are you doing
to improve on
that? So I'm really, we're in a
real growth phase in the
business at the moment, and
sometimes, I mean, it's about a
year, over a year now, since
I've done kind of client facing
work. So, you know, it took me
quite a long time to step away
from that, to kind of lose, lose
control, and I don't know
everything that's going on, and
I think I'm still learning on
how to deal with that. You know,
that's quite just to let my kind
of team, and as my marketing
manager, keeps telling me, it's
not all about me. So, you know,
we've got a real ambition,
obviously, that the business is
it's difficult scaling a service
based business based on one
person, which is what I've done.
So the business has to be more
than just me. From for multiple
from multiple perspective, you
know, perspectives, it has to be
more than just me. So, you know,
for me, it is about learning how
to step away, learning how to
let my team take over. I'm
learning, I'm learning a little
bit about that. I'm not saying
I'm a control freak. Come
tonight to know what's going on.
And, you know, it's kind of like
I've got a bit of FOMO, really,
as to what's as to what's going
on. So I'm learning that that's
quite a big thing. And, you
know, I'm learning that
decisions are being made in my
business without me now, not
saying I like it. That's
happening, and that's the right
thing to do. You know, it's kind
of my baby, my baby's growing
up, and it's like, you're proud
of it, but at the same time
you're like, What do you mean?
You don't need me. Of course,
you need me. So, you know, I'm
learning that at the moment to
kind of like, step away, to BEC
off. And, you know, it's,
that's, and that's quite
interesting. And, you know, also
trying to manage a scale of
business from a cash flow
perspective, from a, you know,
from lots of different angles.
I've never, I've never, I've
never looked at that before. And
we're making some big changes.
We merged the two businesses
together a few months ago. So
again, these are all new
situations. We have never merged
two businesses together. We're
in the process of launching an
employee management ownership
scheme. I've never done that
before, so we're doing that. You
know, we've got kind of quite a
lot of big things that we're
looking at where, you know, we
we may be or may not be looking
for finance. We may or may not
be looking for acquisitions. So
there's quite a lot that may or
may not be happening and and I
start my doctorate in three
weeks. So, you know, it's like,
kind of Yeah, let's do this. So
I've got quite a lot to learn,
right? I
mean, it sounds like it. I mean,
using your analogy like the
business being your baby, yeah?
Until you get that, and at some
Jessica Williams: point it's
really pretty. By the way, don't
call it ugly.
Mark Ackers: You can get ugly
babies, though. We should
definitely cut that out. Some
will come from in the comments,
the way they've got on me this
morning. They probably will put
it in the trailer, sticking that
analogy, business being your
baby, and decisions happening
without you, and you have to
step away. I always sort of
liken that to when you teach a
child to ride a bike, you have
to accept they're going to fall
off. I remember saying that to
my boy, yeah, interesting.
Called William, yeah. And I said
to him, you know, before I let
him go, I was like, right? You
just to, you know, you are going
to hurt yourself. You are going
to fall off and you're gonna and
we started on the grass, then we
went to the concrete, because
that is a lot harder on the
grass, and just knowing when you
let them go, because I couldn't
keep up with him, he's gonna
fall off. But it's difficult,
isn't it? Like when it's your
business? One of the key things
I'm picking up, Jessica is the
importance your mindset plays.
You're very self aware. You're
obviously always trying to
improve and your mindset. I
mean, you've run 13 marathons,
including some international
ones, but ultra marathons as
well. What is an ultra marathon?
Specifically, Insanity,
technically, technically, it is
anything above a marathon, but
if you're kind of a serious
runner, it kind of has to be
over 30 miles. I've only done
two ultras. Oh,
just, just, just the two. Oh, we
won't talk about that. Then. I
mean, you've got to have an
incredible mindset to run ultra
marathons and marathons. And
yeah, you've run 13, just
jumping slightly out. But what's
the best International Marathon
you've
run? So I've done five
internationals. So actually,
kind of pretty much decided 30.
In three years as well, which
kind of makes it even more, a
little bit more insane. I didn't
always say I was totally
balanced with my decisions, but
I think again, one of the things
that I had a thing to prove
myself, which I've definitely
done now. My last one was
Vancouver in May 2025, and that
was pretty special. That was
pretty amazing. I loved Lisbon.
It was so hot. But Lisbon,
Lisbon and Vancouver. I think of
my favourite internationals in
the UK, I would say, oh my god,
I hated Kilda. I can't even tell
you how much I hated that run. I
just hate Kilda. Never,
honestly, I've never been so
miserable in my whole life.
Anyway, sorry, don't ever do
Kilda marathon. Yorkshire
marathon, where I got a PB was
probably my favourite,
very good. And you really, you
compare running to, like running
a business. Tell me more. Tell
me more
about that. I'm a I'm generally
a massive advocate for fitness
and mental agility. I think they
for me, you know, finding that
balance between, you know, I've
always been quite into my
fitness, and it gives me a
focus, it gives me a clarity. It
gives me headspace. It gives me
dedication to whatever I'm
trying to achieve. And because
I'm quite goal driven, I've
normally kind of aligned. So,
you know, I did Mont Blanc was
probably one of my biggest
achievements during that three
year period as well. And it was,
you know, aligned to kind of a
marathon. You set yourself a
goal, and you have to, you know,
you don't just, like, you don't
just grow a business. It happens
you have to align it to a goal.
You don't just achieve a sales
target, because it happens you
have to align it to a goal. And
a marathon is very similar, that
you don't just turn up on a race
day having not, you know, having
not prepared. It's about a multi
factor of things in terms of,
actually, the consistency.
Consistency is everything right
in life, in whatever role you're
in. For me, especially in sales,
consistency is really, really
important. It's about doing your
preparation. Really, really
important. It's about making
sure that you are in the best
space that you can be, you know.
And a marathon is a lot about,
you know, you're this, this bit,
you know, you are far more
capable physically than you
think you are.
I'll take your word for it, in
terms of, you talk about, like
everything sort of coming
together, etc, you've got the
well, you created the SME
conference. Tell us what that is
and who should attend.
So this is the fourth year that
we've been running this
conference. For the last three
years, it's been called sales,
service and success. So it's
literally just been aimed at the
sales market. But since our
rebrand to the SME agency, which
is sales marketing events, we've
rebranded our conference to the
SME conference. So it is on the
23rd of October. It is at when
you're told you are one of our
keynote speakers, and it is for
anyone within the North East
region or further afield who is
looking to grow their business,
who is looking to expand their
sales team, their marketing
team, or hire a senior sales and
marketing professional, and is
interested in learning from
people that are all the things
we've talked about that, say it
is it, say it is it. Is that
kind of lead by example. And so
we've got some amazing speakers
there, obviously yourself on the
sales space, on the marketing
space, people that are kind of
experts in terms of the way that
you speak, the way that you
articulate. We've got some,
yeah, we've just got a really
good culture guy there. So we've
got some really interesting
speakers.
Well, I'm very much looking
forward to it. And tickets
available now. They are, indeed.
It's an incredible venue.
Winyard Hall. I have spoken
there once before. Oh, all
right, I was the best man there.
So this would be a very
different type of talk. I don't
think, I hope it will be
slightly, I think won't be as
funny. Jessica, there's,
there's, there's loads that I've
just not got to cover with you.
I definitely would want to do a
part two. If you had to pick one
defining moment in your career
that's really shaped the success
of your business and where you
are today.
What would it be? I would say,
having to shut my office down
and all those redundant, all
those not redundancy, sorry,
having to shut the office down
for covid. And no, let me start
again. I think having the
failure that we did in year,
kind of four or five really
shaped me to to be the person
that I am from the business
side, I think climb Mont Blanc
shaped me to be on a personal
side, to be as resilient and
determined as I am.
So it's, it's really rising from
adversity and and challenges,
and it feels like you've managed
to see what is, you know,
unprecedented with the with the
pandemic, and what would be
unprecedented for me climbing
Mont Blanc, but thanks. I'll
take your word for it, but being
able to take from those lessons
and build from on there has been
instrumental for you. So I
suppose the lesson and the
takeaway for people is, when you
are being challenged, it's an
opportunity to grow. And what
can you what can you what can
you learn surrounding it with
the right people? The
key thing that I will say in
regards to that is you don't
always see that opportunity as
it's happening, but it's your
ability to reflect afterwards.
So, you know, none of us in
that, in that really difficult,
challenging time, can kind of
go, oh yeah, this is great, but
it's your ability to reflect and
adapt afterwards.
Amazing. Yeah, I'm going to
round up or off. I'm going to
round off with a new feature
that I'd like to introduce. I
want you to ask a question for
my next guest, and it can be any
question you want.
I don't know who your next guest
is, though, nor do I Oh,
wonderful. How have you aligned
your personal values to your own
professional growth?
I love it. Jessica, genuinely
say I'm just scrolling here on
my note. There's so much I've
not got to ask you, but this has
been an amazing episode. I love
how open, honest you've been. I
think people can take so much
from what you've gone through,
and there's just so many nuggets
we've touched upon that I think
it's gonna be a great episode
for people to do. Thank you for
coming all the way to offices.
Appreciate not too far for you,
but it's great to have you here,
and I look forward to getting
that I can't work out if you
like white wine, red wine or
beer, because we spoke about all
of them, but having a drink in
the future, and I definitely
would like to do the second
episode in the future.
Unknown: Count me in red wine.
Thank you for having me. You.