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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the Dad Tired podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by Range Leather. If you're like me. Uh, you're probably playing outside a lot with your kids these days and you need a good hat to keep the sun out of your face. Got a great hat for you from range leather. If you're watching on Spotify or YouTube, you can see the actual hat that I'm, uh, holding up here.
They got a great dad, tired hat, custom dad, tired hat. They've also got ones for each state. I've got a USA hat here. Just really, really good looking. High quality hats. You can see these are dirty 'cause I wear them all the time. They're made of genuine who ween leather, which is, uh, some of the best leather that you can get.
It's gonna look really good in the sun after a long time. So if you're out there in the sun, you don't have to worry about it like starting to fade or anything. It's gonna give it a really sweet, uh, worn look to it. They create top-notch, high quality hats here in the us. Actually in Wyoming and just want to give a quick shout out to Tim, the COO of the company.
He's been part of Dad Tire for a long time. Big supporter of what we're doing here and we love what they're doing at Range Leather. If you go to range leather.com/dad tired, you can use the promo code. Dad tired. To get 15% off your order. That's range leather.com/dad tired. Use the promo code, dad tired, all one word, and you'll get 15% off your order.
That being said, let's dive in to today's episode.
Sam, super excited man to have you on our show today, bro. I, I've been looking forward to this conversation. You've got a new book out, um, with the title alone, like really intrigued me. I'm a fan of, uh, good titles. But anyway, before I jump into all of that stuff, just tell us who you are and what you're up to these days.
Jared, thank you for having me on. I'm a super big fan of you and your work and dad tired. Um, I am, uh, a therapist. Obviously an author now, um, a therapist full time. I work with men, married couples, um, and I do a lot of sexual trauma recovery work. And, um, as I say, I'm also a lover. I'm married 21 years and a father of three sons who are, uh, almost 13, 10, and seven.
So it's a rowdy, rowdy house around here. Dude, we're, uh, we got kids in similar age groups. Oh, nice. But all boys, boys are different, bro. Boys are, uh, yeah. I, I, I have my boy. So I have, my oldest is a boy, and then I have three daughters. And, um, my son is like, he's, he's probably my most calm child. He's very like, uh, he's risk adverse, like pros and cons to every personality trait, you know, sometimes I have to get him to take risks.
Yeah. But sometimes we'll hang out with our friends who have boys. And they're just, you know, they're jumping off the roof into the pool and stuff and I'm like, holy, this is a different, it's a different kind of heart. Yeah. There's an energy that builds between them. Yeah. That you know, especially now that we're in summer mode, that.
Man, they need me to kind of step in and like steer that energy. Like, no, don't, don't use your, your anger or your energy to fight your brother. Let's find a different way to channel that. And, uh, sometimes that's hard, but do you ever let them fight? Do you ever just like, just let 'em go at it a little bit?
Get it out? Yeah. I mean, there is some that I don't have boys, you know, I don't have boys that like, like sometimes my son is just like. It's like, dad, let's box. You know? Let's, yeah. He just wants to just kind of get some aggression out. Yes. So we'll box, we'll, we'll rest. But like with boys, do you just kind of let 'em like get after it a little bit?
Yeah. You know, sometimes they, is that good or bad? Your therapist? You tell me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, there's a place for like learning how to handle intense emotion, right? Yeah. And so like, there are times where I'm like, I gotta let this play out. They're, they're at each other a bit. Yeah. But I've, I've gotta let them find their way, especially as men with their, their anger.
How, how do you, how to not just shut that down or discipline that out of them, but like, Hey, you've gotta find a way with this. I can't always rescue you from these fights. Or, you know, call time out and like, put people in their corner. So, you know, never obviously to the point of anybody's getting hurt, but like they, they will get intense with each other and then figure it out and kind of walk it out together.
And that's been fun to watch, like, uh. I'm not always the referee, you know, on the side. Mm-hmm. So there's a place for that. And then obviously, you know, when, like all of us, um, girls too, you know, like life when they come home from school and stuff, right? They have, they have a place they wanna get some of that energy right out.
So trying to help them find a way to do that. Usually we try to do like basketball or jump on the trampoline or pillow fight or, um. My younger two like to wrestle together a lot. Yeah. They're, they, that's like a, a bond they have. Yeah. Um, so yeah, finding ways to steer that and help them embody it better and know, know their own limits.
I, I know this isn't like, uh, the subject of your, your current book, but, um, yeah, because we're talking about it, I'm super curious. Um, so many men. I'm trying to think of the right way to say it. Like I think a lot of men deal with anger. I, I didn't know, like I had anger, like some big anger pieces of my personality until I got married and had kids.
Honestly. Yeah, like I, I was a pretty calm and cool collected guy and then I saw sides of, I've seen sides of me in marriage and in parenting that I'm like, whoa, that it's, it is kind of scary, like my, the, the places where I can get really angry. Yeah, and I think a lot of guys would say they have, you know, they struggle with anger in some way.
I'm curious, like from your perspective, both professionally and as a dad of boys, like how do you, what do you tell guys or what would you tell guys who are like, I don't know how, I don't even know how to ask the question, but like that pent up, like we, we need that out. The Yes. Somewhere to release that instead of just like burying it and bottling it.
Yeah. Um, like how do you, what's a healthy, biblical, good way to get out those huge emotions that we feel as men instead of just like being told. Suck it up and bury it. Well man, and we are in the sex talk. You never got right now. Yeah. Because of this. Right. Men have such, have so few healthy outlets kind of culturally among men for how do you de-stress.
Yeah. How do you, how do you come down from life? Because life asks you, you know, anger is really. Um, at one level, a kind of fight or flight, right? It, it, it, it's, it's because life asks you to kind of go at it sometimes, and men feel that sense of like the stress, the man pressure, right? That that can make you tired.
And when you put it all on the field, how do you come down at the end of your day? And, you know, a lot of times it, you know, things that I've seen men struggle with alcohol. Right, because it's a vasodilator, it will relax you right? Chemically for the, I mean, I, I obviously know what that means, but for the guy who doesn't know what it means, what's a vasodilator?
So literally like relaxes your blood vessels. So like, like, like literally relaxes your muscles, but it, it will let blood flow, uh, flow through your body versus like being sort of truncated when you, um. Are in fight or flight, you know, being keyed up, that sense of just being stressed or your, your blood pressure being high, right?
So alcohol is a very, uh, reliable, obviously the side effects of it are, are harmful, right? Yeah. In, in terms of like taking qu you know, large quantities of it, all of that. But, um, so I see men use alcohol. Or pornography is honestly a, I think the reason most men are led to pornography is not just this overabundance of lust, but it's actually, how do I de-stress?
Yeah. Right. That they're, the, the, the chemicals that are released during, um, you know, sexual release are relaxants, literally. Yeah, that's the, the term. So they, they will relax you. So, you know, finding like why do, why do guys struggle with like pornography use or alcohol abuse? I think it's because we're trying to find that way.
How do I come down from my life? How do I calm down inside? How do I regulate my emotions? How do I feel comfort? Um, and that's hard. It's hard to find healthy ways to do that. Um, the healthy ways. Can I just before you get into the healthy ways, which I want to get into. Um, I, I've walked through with many guys their struggle with pornography and finding freedom in porn, uh, from pornography, and I've heard so many guys say that.
They're like, dude, that doesn't even feel like sexual. Like, you know, if my wife found out, or when my wife found out, she just was crushed because it was like she thought I was wanting all these other women. And dude, I just literally just, I was so stressed. I just like needed a moment to like, relax. Yes, I've heard, literally heard those exact words.
Multiple times. Yeah. And it's, it's, in other words, it's body up, right? Mm-hmm. Like you're saying, it's not just this, um, desire to go cheat and, um, like I'm interested in other women. It's, it's largely starts body up now, obviously. It, it can follow a script. Yeah. And, and we need to talk about the formational nature of that, right.
It can actually shape your arousal. Mm. Um, and, and the story that's a part of what you're acting out in is a whole conversation I have in the book, but, so getting beer, you Yeah. You saying that is essentially saying, if I'm hearing you right, like having a beer isn't just having a beer because it will have some kind of side effects on you.
I mean, yeah, and, and in the same way, pornography isn't just like, oh, I'm just doing this to relax. It will have some kind of side effects on you. Right. So is that what you mean by saying body up like it. It's not just a quick relaxant, right? There will be other ramifications to that action. Exactly. Am I hearing you right on that?
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. In other words, um, you're not just an animal, right? You're not just a body. You're not just a, um, what? I got rid of the urge and now I'm good, right? And right. It's like, well, no, because you're more than that. God made you, you know, um, you know, as Psalm eight says, you were made a little lower than God.
Meaning like, uh, um, you, you have this, you're of the earth, but you're this image of God. And, um, so you're more than an animal, so it's gonna shape you. And it actually, sorry to and keep interrupting. Yeah, totally. I, no, I don't wanna keep, I, I really, I'm gonna let you get all your train of thought. I just want people to, when they hear that like, you're a little lower than God.
Meaning we're creating the likeness of God. We're not a monkey. Yes. We're not an ant, we're not a dog. We have, you know, we're whole, you know, mind, body, spirit like we're, God has created us. Yes. Unique and different than the rest of his creation. Just wanted make people like, when me hear that out, if any new Christian, that's a good foot, you know?
Yeah. Okay. Right. Right. Like, we're unique in, in the created order, right? We're, we're this, um, you know, we're the image of God. Obviously everything in creation bears his fingerprints, his, it's his artwork. But we're, you know, we're that special. Design the image of God. And so mirroring that is to say, right, you're not just a monkey or an animal or an ant.
Right? Like you, you have more than just urges in a body and Yeah. Um, so it, it's understanding that what you choose to comfort with needs to mirror your, your design. Mm-hmm. And alcohol shapes you. Um. Obviously we understand that in terms of alcoholism, um, pornography shapes you and it, it shapes you in a way.
Um, you know, what gets men there is a stressed out, maybe a stressed out body. I need re I need relief. And that's exactly what I hear from my clients as well is, um, most of the time it has nothing to do with sex to start with, but they go there and it ends up, you know. We could get deep into what gets acted out, right?
Like what you, what you do in that ritual, where you go with your pornography use has a whole lot to do with your own story, your own history of being overwhelmed and stressed out. Um, or, um, you know, as I say in the book, um, like the parts of your story where you. Feel shame for things, right? Because it's, it's more than just, gosh, I had a stressful day.
A lot of times guys are also kind of trying to soothe, uh, I didn't feel like I showed up well or, yeah, gosh, the day was terrible, or I feel like I'm failing. Or Right. It could be the stress of like, man, I just blew up at my kids, or. I felt like I wasn't there for my kids, or, you know, I'm not connected to my wife and I don't know what's wrong.
Right. There's a, there's a lot of other stresses other than just, man, I put it on the field and it was a good day. Right. Um, and so understanding like, um, you know, your sexuality is storied, it, it, your sexuality has been living your life with you. And so it's been shaped by your story, and a lot of times that's not on the surface for guys.
Like, guys don't come to me saying, Hey, I want to talk about my story of sexual formation. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I've never heard guys say that. Yeah, right. It's, it's, its the stuff that's a couple layers deeper, that's a part of what they're reenacting. In their life. Um, and, and again, we could get deep here, but the, it's the nature of trauma that if we don't heal it, we end up reenacting it.
It it stays with us and shapes how we kind of experience and make meaning of life. Um, and that's, that's a big concept, I'm aware. But, um, again, just wanting to come back to. Being curious about what you soothe with, um, and in particular, you know, what are you drawn to in, let's say pornography, right? That that has meaning to your own story and it's deeper again than just you have an urge and you need to get release, right?
It's tied back to. Potentially, or what, if I'm hearing you right, like some type of pain point? Um, yes. 'cause again, we're not animals, you know, it's not just some like, which I, I, I think a lot of people, especially in the secular world, would just kind of say that like, this is a part of human nature. This is a normal urge.
You know what's interesting? I was just talking to somebody, uh, I was in Canada and I, um, I was doing a, a show, a TV interview, and there was another guy backstage who, this is his. Kind of wheelhouse. And, uh, we were talking about how, uh, it's really fascinating how the secular culture, um, is starting to talk about how harmful pornography is even from a Yeah.
Total. Totally like, secular. Um, obviously as Christians we believe, there's so many reasons why this is harmful, but it's interesting to hear, like even you kind of, if you listen to some like big. Men podcasts where they're just talking about like becoming a better man. Like they talk about cutting out pornography, which isn't, that's a, that's a pretty new conversation, right, right, right.
'cause it, you know, like in the name of being sex positive, right? There was always this sense of like, you need to bless everything that people want to do in the secular culture. Like that's the way to be sex positive is just everything goes right. Just like, yes, yes, yes. And you're right, they're finding out as like, oh, actually.
This can actually be really harmful. There's so much in the script of pornography as an industry, the scripts of what's getting acted out, right? There's such harm and, um, people are starting to recognize. Um, and some of the books that I read, there's an a journalist, Peggy Orenstein, um, and I don't, she doesn't seem to bring any faith background.
She's naming like, um, you know, guys that, and another one, um, Gail Dines who wrote Porn of, what is it? Um, can't think of the name of her book, porn Land, but she's naming like, there are guys that actually can't, they can only, their sexuality can only really function in pornography. It can't even show up with real women anymore.
Wow. And they're realizing like, oh, this is actually. Yeah. Impactful. Um, yeah, it's, it's good that they're starting to recognize, you know, just from, um, kind of honoring what makes us human. Yeah. That this, um. That we are, that this shapes us. That it, it's, it's not just a sex is not, I would say sex is never just sex.
Yeah. It's never just an urge. You act out. Right. Um, and I think they're starting to recognize that. It is fascinating. It's fascinating how culture, 'cause it, it, I've even heard it, some of the conversations, I was just listening know, listening to a podcast on the plane last night. Um, and again, totally secular, but how even from a woman's perspective, there's kind of there, there's getting more of the conversation.
Like, um, you know, it's okay if we sleep with a lot of men, like women can be free. We don't have to have the shame of like. As they would say, body counts. You know, we can sleep with whoever we want. And this is the, the freedom of a, the new woman. Um, but then there's now the backlash of that. There's also the, that started another conversation again, in a secular world of saying like, actually that's not like great and you're not happy and right.
You're, you're still not fulfilled and it's not working for you as a woman and it's not working for your potential one day partner as a man. Like, it's just really fascinating how these, um, God designed. Conversations are coming up in secular culture as humanity is trying to figure out the best way to flourish and find freedom and joy.
Yeah. And they're swinging the pendulum on in every direction and, um, and still not finding it right. Um, which again, I I think as missionaries in a culture is opportunity to give good news, you know, where obviously where we find good news and, and complete satisfaction in Jesus and the way that God designed things.
Right. Um, I you, so you probably. Have a lot, you've probably seen a lot of freedom like in your office from guys. I imagine as you're walking through these stories and helping 'em tie dots. Mm-hmm. Excuse me. But, um, I, I think some guys listening to this podcast right now, they might hear you talk about like, how it's not just a nerd, it's not just a sexual thing.
There's like, there's a whole story that's been written and it's being written. It has to do with your pain. And that might feel overwhelming to a guy who wants to find freedom in this area. But it's like, dude, I don't. I'm like trying to work 40 to 60 hours a week and my wife needs me to be a better husband.
I gotta be like the spiritual leader. My kids don't go to bed on time and their soccer practice. Like, where in the world am I gonna find time to like figure out my whole story and uh, find freedom from this thing? You know, like that feels overwhelming. What would you say to that guy? Yeah. Well again. To start with that man pressure to, to show up.
There's gotta be a place that you give yourself space to come off the field somewhere. Um, and again, I think guys attempt that in ways we've talked about, but it's easy as a man to almost objectify yourself. Hmm. With. I need to produce, right? I need to, um, and, and there's a good like, man urge to show up well for your family.
And that's a good thing in a man that that's, that he's got that pulse and that desire. But there's gotta be a place as a man where you're letting yourself be off the field, even if it's for a half an hour here or an hour there. Um, you can't objectify yourself, meaning force yourself to just produce, produce, produce, produce, produce without there being some space you're making.
So in some ways, it's gotta start with the kindness you give yourself to say, I'm worth a deeper conversation. I'm worth making space. For this. And I'm not saying that's easy, right? It's not like you just then go magically, boom, you get an extra hour here or a half an hour there. Um, that will take effort, but it's gotta start with, I'm worth, I'm not a pack animal.
Yeah. I'm not a beast of burden. So where, where are you letting yourself be a human and kind of humanizing, um. Life's not gonna give you that. Your, your boss probably isn't gonna say like, Hey, you've worked really hard. Why don't you take an hour off? Right? Yeah. Yeah. Your boss will just want more. So, um.
Again, not saying that's true for everybody, but that's the general feel of life. It's always gonna take more. Um, you can't tell your, you know, your mortgage company like, Hey, I needed a couple extra hours off this month, so Yeah, totally. I'm gonna be a little short. They're gonna be like, no, totally. It's not how this works.
So you've, you've got to find, because I believe it's God's voice, right? Romans two, the kindness of God. It's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's not God's anger with you that is gonna, that should drive your healing. It should be that God is kind. Yeah. And he, and he wants that kindness to be yours.
So risking on, I'm worth space to reflect on this. Um, and then I think. Curiosity is a huge gift. So, you know, if you're saying like, man, that sounds great to, you know, engage my story and find a different way towards freedom, but you know, I feel so stuck in this habit or whatever. Um, I think curiosity is your greatest gift there after kindness is, um, being willing to sit and I think God gives us this freedom.
His grace to be curious about our own behavior. Just say, why did I just do that? Yeah. Because it will never be just, well, you're just a terrible sinner. Right. That's why you did that, that that might be a thread like, yes, we're sinners. Yes, we act out of that, but there's always more to the story. Yeah. And that is where, when I sit with guys, that's where we can start to open up the conversation deeper is.
What got you to that moment? Yeah. What was going on beforehand? Um, I tell this, this story in the book, but there was a dad, a man that I work with in counseling and, um, he's given me permission to share this, but he was telling me this story. He came in and, you know, um, he's a contractor and he was describing to me.
Having acted out with pornography, like, Hey, just as a confession right now. And that's always a brave confession. But the, the question became like, so what's the story? Like? What got you there? Yeah. And we started to explore just what led up to that moment. And, um, he said, well, I, I talked to my wife. I stopped at the grocery store to get some things on the way home from work.
I forgot some things. My wife was mad at me, and he's like, that anger from her triggered me, like just spiraled me. And um, and at some point in the rest of the night he acted out with pornography and, you know, of course felt terrible for it and like, oh, I'm, you know, beating himself up. And as we sat, you know, my question to him was like, what were you searching for?
What were you, literally, what were you looking at when you were searching for pornography? And this is a guy that had done some work in counseling a little bit, but the thing he came to is, I think I was looking for a woman with a really genuine smile. Wow. And it was like, whoa. He's like, I just wanted to feel liked.
Wow. That's what the pull to pornography was. Wow. And again, that is a guy doing his work. Right. But that curiosity Yeah. Led him to, that's what he had ached for. Right. Which is what he didn't have in the moment with his wife Wow. Is that she was mad at him and, and he felt like, ah, I, I just want her to like me.
Hmm. Um, and. There's a whole conversation that we went further into, which was the history of wanting to be, wanted to be liked. Like that smile had a whole story to it in his own, um, relationship to his mother. And, and the only times he could get his mother's smile, right? So there was echoes even deeper than just, hey, this moment with my wife.
You know, because, um, it, you know, it, it wasn't just like, well, he couldn't handle his wife not liking him for Right. An hour or whatever. Right, right. No, there was deep, there was a deeper trigger to, he so rarely got his mother's smile. Wow. And his mother's delight. And his mother's affection. So again, can you start to hear, we've never gotten there.
If what he said to me is, I looked at porn. You know, which is a brave confession. Yeah. And, all right, man, well keep praying. Right, right, right. There was a sense of like, no, we need to be curious at a deeper level to what got you there. Um, and yeah. Yeah. So it, I mean, I mean, kind of goes to the thought of like, you know, just to installing like an accountability software.
On your phone, that might be a good first step. Mm-hmm. But there's gonna be some deeper things that you're gonna have to ask yourself and deal with, um, right. If you're gonna find real, like probably lasting healing in this, right? Like, you gotta, you gotta really start digging down to the core. And that's, that's something we talk about a lot on the shows.
Uh, I, I personally think like some of the best leaders, the best spiritual leaders, the, the healthiest men are the most self-aware men. I don't know a man who is healthy, who's not self-aware. Right. Who's willing to ask himself some hard questions. Something we say a lot in this podcast and in the Tirred ministry is just having the guts to ask, God, is there anything in me that offends you?
Yeah. Which one? That's just a, that's a prayer of repentance, but it's also a self-reflective question. It's hard, hard to ask God, uh, is there anything in me that offends you? Without kind of examining your heart and allowing the Holy Spirit to examine your heart? It's like, okay, why did I do that? What is there?
Like, why? You know, why is that behavior happening? Have you seen, in my experience, I have yet to meet a guy. I'm not saying this guy doesn't exist, but I have yet to meet a guy who's really found healing from this particular, like the pornography issue by himself. Everyone that I've seen find healing from their addiction to pornography has been by what that guy did in your office, confessing.
Mm-hmm. And then working through it. Every guy that I know that's found healing has confessed it. To another brother and is like working through it with some other people. Like how big of a piece do you think that is? The, I need somebody else to help me with that. Which by the way, there's guys listening to this I know for a fact who are independent, introverted, you know, like strong-willed and, and in many ways I, I'm, I kind of described many parts of my personality in all that.
Yeah. Like I, I'll do this on my own. I'll figure this thing out by myself. So they hate that question and they hate, you know, where I'm going with this. But, you know, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. First of all, I love that your culture and your, your message and your ethos is that self-awareness. You know, be open to asking God.
I mean, that's such a brave question. Mm-hmm. You know, is there anything offensive in me? Mm-hmm. Um, uh, that's amazing. So it's the nature of shame to isolate us. Yeah. Right. Shame, shame is, is, is actually triggers in the body of fight or flight response. Um, it is re shame registers as trauma. It mirrors traumatic memory in terms of research, meaning it shame feels to the body like a threat, even a deadly threat, which is weird to think about, right?
'cause it's an emotional. Experience, like how do we register that as so dangerous? But research says it, it gets you in fight or flight. But again, what? You're not running from a bear, right? Yeah. That's about to maul you. You're running from yourself. You're actually scared of something inside of you that feels dirty.
Broken. Wow. Um, so. Just to set up this conversation with, how do, how do you, how do most men cope with shame? Shutting that part of them down? Yeah. Disconnecting from part, that part of them hiding that part of them. Yeah. Like, this is the dangerous part of me. I need to get away from it. I need to hide it. I need to push it away.
So I, I would want to invite men to understand, um, and this is my work in counseling. It's why I am a counselor. Um, I. Because I went to counseling in my own struggle with pornography. Mm. Wow. Um, in my late teens, early twenties, and found this kind of kindness. Wow. And it's what transformed me. So, um, shame.
That's cool. Wants to isolate you. Yeah. So when guys say like, oh, I can, I can tackle this, right? Like, uh. Um, I would wanna say it's the nature of shame that it wants you to think you can tackle it alone. Wow. And the way that we bring and fight shame is through vulnerability is risking on kindness. And again, that can happen in relationship with God.
Right. So you're, you're not alone when you're with God. But I've, I've not seen. A man without injuring himself in a different way, get over pornography without being in some form of community. And I'm not saying you need to go broadcast it and Totally tell 50 dudes or something. Totally, yeah. You know, it may be one or two people.
Yeah, completely. What do you, what do you mean by, uh, without, what did you say? Hurting himself in some other way. Injuring yourself in another way. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like he just replaces one thing with another. Yeah. Like, and often an addiction to almost like control. Mm. Like, or guys will so shut down their own sexuality or what moves in them that they, they, they get out of pornography.
But it, it's with this almost shut downness, this numbness. There's not a, um, there's not a, a connection. It almost starts to feel like an addiction to control in. Its in its own way. Like, I've conquered this Right. And I've mastered, um, maybe what I'm trying to say there is they haven't recovered their heart in it.
Mm-hmm. Meaning like, maybe they've stopped the behavior, but, um, wow. Yeah. Like I, I'm thinking of one guy in particular that. Um, said he had mastered, you know, he lust, he didn't lust anymore. Um, and he was, uh, I heard this story from a friend. He, he, um, this is his good friend and he was sitting with his wife at like Starbucks or a restaurant or something, and his wife was like, so like, you don't.
He said he so had conquered it. He didn't even feel anything when he saw a beautiful woman anymore. And his wife was like, so like that waitress over there who was pretty, you don't even, you don't even notice her. And he's like, no, I've, I've, I've conquered this. Um, and there was something in his wife though that broke a little, because there's a sense of like.
You stuck recognizing beauty. Yeah. Yeah. And also I don't believe that guy, I don't trust that guy. Right. I don't know him, but I don't trust him. Right. And there's Right, there's probably self deception of like Yeah, you've probably just numbed yourself. Yeah. Dude. To your inner world. Yeah. So that's what I mean by further injury is like you're not actually reintegrating, you're not actually reconnecting with your heart.
You're probably just shutting something down. Yeah, it's okay. So this is a, this kind of leads to a, probably what you're talking about in the book, but like that, so that would be an extreme version, but I do think that in Christian culture there's this, this like subtlety of you do need to cut this part out of you.
Like sex is, yeah. And, and nobody, I've literally never heard a single pastor or you know, author say this. But the kind of gen, if I could sum up general cultural Christianity from my own perspective, this is my own opinion, but it kind of feels like sex is bad before you get married and then they tell you.
But it's awesome when you do get married, but let's not really talk about it and keep it under control and you better like, you know. It just, that's a small part of you that you'll figure out later. But essentially, yeah, nobody really ever talked about him. Right. You know, it was really bad. And then it's supposed to be really good, but nobody ever talks about it and don't look at porn 'cause that's super bad.
Which I agreed that it is. It's bad on so many levels. Um, but that's kind of the end of the conversations. Like, dude, okay, this ha like what you're saying with this guy. Like, I still wanna look at my wife and. Think she's beautiful and in many ways, like, is it okay to lust after my wife? Like, is that biblical?
Nobody ever talks about that. You know, like, what, what do, can we have a conversation? Which, anyway, you wrote a book about it. So like, help us unpack like what is healthy sexuality as a disciple of Jesus? This is such a big part of men's personalities and their being the way God's wired us. We are sexual creatures and we want to be faithful and honor God with it and have it for his glory and his beauty.
Like what does that even look like? Sorry, I just vomited on you on the, no, man, that's, that was a beautiful riff, right? Because that, that is the message, right? Is like, hey, um, you know, maybe men, if they get a sex talk, this has been my experience, they get maybe a, a really simple sometimes shoddy anatomy lesson.
Mm-hmm. And then it really quickly goes to a purity lecture of like, oh, and by the way, you know, make sure you're not letting this, um. You need to be scared of this, right? And you're like, you need to really keep this under wraps. And it's like, you know, you need to cage this like the lion at the zoo. And it does develop this relationship in men to feel suspicious of their own sexuality of, you know, I think that is the kind of purity culture injury to men is I need to be really afraid of what happens in me because it's probably lust.
And there can be this even sense of like, oh my gosh, I'm probably a half step from lust or an affair or Right. Like, ah, I need to be really afraid of this. And there's not a blessing of actually, you know, this is a part of creation. God called good. Yeah. In Eden. And you sta still bear that original blessing even though we've fallen from Eden.
Um, so there is a. A sense of, um, that's, that's really why I wrote this book, is to help men be able to sit with and bless and welcome what moves in them. Because again, if you're, let's say you're standing at Starbucks or the grocery store, right? And, and you see a beautiful woman, um, a beautiful person, you're, you're.
It's so easy to think like, oh, whatever's moving in me needs to get shut down. Rather than letting saying, hold on a second. Like, you are wired as a cre creation of God to love and appreciate beauty. Yeah, and that's not, arousal is not the same as lust. What moves in you is not the same as lust. You can be moved by a beautiful person.
And be moved to worship God. Wow. Like I'm thinking of a friend that said to me, he was watching, um, Caitlyn Clark, the NCAA star, right? Yeah. During March Madness and now the Indiana Star. Uh, and he was saying like, I'm so drawn to watching her. She's so good. Yeah. And, and her finesse on the court and. He was, he, he stepped back to say like, I, it doesn't feel sexual, but he was questioning, right?
Like, is is that lust? What am what am I feeling right now? Yeah. What is this happening? A three pointer from half court. Yeah. Feels something in my body. Yeah. Yeah. There's a sense of like, um, I said to him, I'm like, man, I think you're experiencing this other thing called awe. Mm. Which is you are just moved.
By her finesse. Hmm. Her grace, her beauty in a fuller sense than just what she looks like. Hmm. But her way on the court. Right. Like and that's beauty. Hmm. And that can, that kind of awe can actually le it can be reverent, it can be respectful. Mm. Um, that can, um. That can lead you to worship God and be like, wow, God.
Like you would, you know, in a, in with a beautiful sunset or, um, I had a woman client say to me once, um, she said, uh, I thought this was amazing. Like, wow, to get an insight from the world of women. She said, oh, I noticed guy's checking me out at the grocery store from time to time, and I'm flattered. Hmm. And then she paused and said, but then there was those other looks, the creepy ones.
Mm. And those are really haunting. Mm. In other words, this woman could tell the difference between like a man who was just appreciating her beauty. Like there she had a felt sense of difference in her body about a man just appreciating her beauty and noticing her. Yeah. Versus a guy that was objectifying her or lusting after her and that felt creepier to her.
Yeah. I, what I'm picturing in my mind, I'm such a visual guy, um, uh, and like analogies and stuff, and what I'm picturing is like the road, beauty is a road and then it comes to a fork in the road. Yeah. And you, you, we all can be on that road that of beauty, which is great, but the fork is which, where am I going to take this?
Where am I gonna let this road lead? And one will be like towards sinful, lustful, inappropriate, um, thinking, and the other will lead towards worship. And it's like, yes. Um, but we all got there on the same road, you know, which started with beauty. Yeah, that's well said. I like that. Right. In other words, beauty is the thing that's just, you're wired for.
You put that so well, and then you have a choice. Are you gonna go to lust? Are you gonna go to awe and worship? Yeah, that's really good. Because awe and beauty can, beauty can actually back to like what are some healthy ways to soothe beauty can actually be a really healthy way to soothe. Meaning like, um, gosh, you know, living in Colorado, just going for a hike and it's, it's not just like I get physical exercise, it's also like I'm stopping to take in the views.
And there's, there's research on awe that it, it reduces our cortisol levels. Mm. It lowers our cortisol levels. It lowers your heart rate. Mm. So taking in beauty can actually be one of those soothing, comforting things like listening to good jazz. Yeah. At night or, um, um. Taking in nature. Um, I feel that when I'm on the water, it like, it has a, um, it's got this, um, dynamic to it.
This, uh, a sense like, you know, the six sense, there's a separate sense that it's hitting, although it is hitting many of the senses, like being near water and seeing water and feeling water, but there's something deeper, like there's something spiritual going on when I'm on the water near water. Lake Ocean River.
Seeing something like some, I'm like, this, this is doing something to my health right now in my spirit that's like deeper and, and again, I, I always feel like I, I, I feel like sometimes you, we used to talk like that as, or think that stuff as a Christian back in the day and I'm like, oh geez, I'm getting like hippie and weird.
But now I'm just like, dude, that's, that's just how God created thing. Like that's just how Yeah. Incredibly masterful God is as a designer. Yeah. You know, he's just like putting in all these like. Cheat codes in the, in the world, in our human bodies and in the earth's like, did you wa go walk outside? Like let your feet bare feet feel the grass and like look at some water and watch how that's gonna like release some chemical in your brain.
Like you're welcome. You know it's like that. Yeah, it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. It's so cool. Yeah. How do you, shifting gears here a little bit. I was thinking, 'cause you have three boys and your boys are getting to the age that many of us. Uh, saw pornography for the first time. So I've, I've got a, a brand new 13-year-old boy.
He just turned 13. Um, so this is a, like, I think about this kind of stuff all the time. Are what are you doing practically to try to shape the story now for your young boys, um, so that they're not sitting in an office like yours, you know, 20 years from now having to unravel a, a, uh, a rat's nest. Yeah, for lack of better words.
Yeah, there's, I mean, there's such a sense of, you know, the behavioral things of like being very aware of devices. Yeah. Right. Like, um, just really being intentional about that as. Restricting, um, access and just I think trying to steward just the, the. Uh, the reality that we have the internet in the house and yeah, trying to be intentional about that portal to the, to the world, um, because that is a place kids will go.
Um, I talked with a, some parents who have a 14-year-old son and, um, and they've given me permission to share this story. You know, their, they, their son came to them at 14 and said, or maybe it was 15. But it started when he was 14 and they said, he said, you know, I'm, I'm struggling with pornography and what had gotten him there, Google, he, he had heard his older brothers talking about dating.
'cause he had some older teenage brothers and he realized he didn't know how to kiss a girl. Wow. And so, you know, talk about, there's, there's part of the sex talk. Yeah. But. He, he went to Google and typed in how to kiss a girl man and the, the predatory nature of pornography, that search engine optimization.
Yeah. What pulled up is some pornography links. Yeah. And that became this shame, intrigued cycle for him until he was so desperate Right. And afraid he opened up to his parents. So again, like just being aware. One level guarding devices. The other part to that story is trying to meet your children in their sexual curiosity.
Yeah. Right. Like making sure that you're, as I say in the book, it's not, it's not one sex talk. Right. There, there is an iconic moment where you, you may learn about sex, but there's, it's hundreds of, yeah. One minute sex talks. Over their life is what I've read as like the best vision. Mm-hmm. So how to kiss a girl is a one minute sex talk, even though you might not even talk about sex obviously.
Right. But it's the romance talk, right. Um, part of it. And so just trying to be, keep open channels for like, if your kids ask, and this will start early, right? Yeah. Like my, when my son started asking like, you know. Dad, what are these balls under my penis? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, what are they? Yeah. Answer that question.
Right. And you don't, you don't have to give an hour long lecture. Right. And say everything, but say one minute worth of, of information to, to meet their curiosity. What did you tell 'em? I said, well, those are te, those are called testicles. Yeah. I'm just trying to 'cause the, I'm trying to give practical 'cause some guys are like you.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. My son will ask me that or has asked me that. Like, what am I supposed to say? Yeah. So you, you know, like, uh, what did I, I said, um, yeah, those are called testicles. So gave the name. Yeah. Right. Because naming things well and giving the actual name helps to fight shame. Yep. So yeah, those are testicles.
What do they do was the next question? Yeah. Well, they, they create sperm. That's the cell that God takes. And they had already asked at one point like, where do babies come from? So that's the, that's where God makes that cell that we talked about from a man that he joins to a cell and a woman. Oh. And I think at that point the conversation was, their curiosity was slated.
Totally. But then that, by the way, I've had so many of those conversations and I'm like, ready? I'm like kind of getting sweaty and I'm like, okay, here we go. And literally you say that last one and or you say like one line and they're like, okay. Where the Legos are, I'm gonna go shoot hoops or like, you know?
Right. It's usually they don't have the attention span to like sit and have that kind of conversation for 20 minutes. You know, it's usually like Right. Two quick questions and then they're, they're outta there. Right. But you're developing, the beauty of that is you're developing this sense of like, I can go to dad with my questions and he answers them.
He doesn't shame me. For them. It doesn't get weird. Yeah. Um, he doesn't say like, oh, we don't talk about that. You know, and, and I've had. I've sat with men whose parents would say that. Like, we don't talk about that as if it was like, you know, saying penis was a swear word, literally. Right. And so developing a culture of like curiosity is okay.
Curiosity about bodies is okay. Mm-hmm. And my parents are gonna answer my questions. Um, o otherwise Google will and Google will be the one to disciple our kids. Yeah. Which is the alternative to that. I've tried to be ahead of the game with my son, especially. Um, you know, just like I. I've had that conversation with him telling him like, dude, you're, you're going to seeing women and seeing them like in Beau, that there's nothing shameful.
Like God literally created you for that and your body as you are hitting puberty is gonna feel all kinds of things as you see a beautiful woman, like that's all God's design teeth. Channel that one day you're gonna get to like, see your, like, have that with your wife and it's gonna be awesome. You know, I'm trying to like, mainly because as a kid I wish I had that, you know, like I felt so much shame as a, uh, as a 13-year-old, a 12-year-old boy.
Like I didn't know what to feel. Nobody was talking to me about this. And what happened was I end up hiding. You end up doing things in secret and you feel all kind and I just really don't want my son to have that. I told him, I'm like, dude, do you. We live in a house full of women. It's me, your sisters, and your mom.
Like obviously you can go to your mom for anything. She's smarter than I am, but like nobody will understand what you're going through as a dude. Better than I can. Yeah. Like you can come to me with anything. And I've felt it all. I've like, I've seen stuff like I know stuff. I've, yep. I, I've been there, bro.
And like, you can come to me. I didn't call him bro, that, you know, he's my son. I'm like, you know, right. I'm like, you can come to me with anything and uh, and I get it. So I'm just trying to like get ahead of that. Yeah, that's so well done, Jared. Uh, well dude, yeah, that's, I dunno what I'm doing. True. Well, hey, we're all, we're all finding our way and figuring it out and it's, but you're, you're doing that well to set up like, and blast what moves in him.
Mm. Right. And so he will be like, oh yeah, my dad talked to me about this. Yeah. You know, that's the goal. Yeah. Yeah. And that's primarily why we homeschool on it. So we homeschool, but I just wanna be able to like, have the freedom to, or the time to have as many of those conversations as I can before somebody else tries to disciple him.
But not to say everybody has to homeschool, but that's, that's a big part for us. Mm-hmm. Um, I wanted to ask you before, I know we're running outta time here, but, um, I heard Jackie Hill Perry. Are you familiar with Jackie Hill Perry? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She's, I, I think she's a wonderful teacher. Um, yeah, I agree.
She said something the other day that I thought was so it, like, I don't know why it hit me so powerfully, but she said she's a big proponent of like, counseling. Her and her husband even have liter, like they have t-shirts and hats that say like, Jesus and my therapist, or things like that. You know, it's like, you know, it's like they, they're, they're all for it.
But she said something the other day on her podcast with her husband, where she was like, um, one of the things that could happen, uh, is. You get so caught up in therapy like this, professional help, um, that it becomes, if it never moves, to here is my sin, my brokenness, my weakness, my story, my failures, that, and that's brought, and before my face, and now I turn that to Jesus.
As the healer, as the one who offers a better route, who can rewrite that story, all that stuff. If it never gets there, it just turns into a bunch of like narcissism, like this is my life now just becomes about me and I, I have a better understanding about who I am and all my flaws and all my brokenness and you know that I can tell you everything about my personality and why I do it, but it never gets to Jesus.
Um, it just turns into like this narcissism, and I don't know why that hit me so hard, because I kind of feel like we swung the pendulum really hard on. Therapy self-help mental health. Mm-hmm. Like all this stuff, like understand yourself, get better. And I think that's good and right. But I thought what she said was so powerful, like mm-hmm.
That's good and Right, because it exposes the problem. But if the ne if the problem never gets to Jesus, like it's just you like thinking about yourself all the time. Mm-hmm. I don't know what, how does. How does that hit you as a therapist? Like what do you think about that? Yeah. Well, I, you know, in many ways my, my perspective of therapy is therapy is really just inviting you to be clearer about where you are making your choices or what they are.
So, I, I see therapy, if therapy is only saying, you know, if somebody said to you, well, you did this because of your wounds, that's not good therapy. Hmm. Um, so your wounds set you up. They deserve kindness, but change all, change happens through repentance. Um, is my perspective. Yeah, I agree with that. So what do you mean?
Like, well, what about my wounds is, what do you mean repent of them? No, I don't re I don't mean repent of your wounds. I mean, therapy helps you be clear of where others sin was present and then what you are doing with your story. So there's your story that sets you up. There, there's how you are acting it out or what you're doing.
And in many ways, you know, one of the primary first repentance acts of repentance I invite people to is kindness towards themselves, right? Self hatred is not of God. So you know, just being able to be kind to your own story, meaning kind to your own pain, is an act of repentance. That's discipleship. So, um, I had a supervisor in grad school.
We called her, called her the Velvet Hammer. Um, her name was Lottie. And, um, man, she was a spitfire of a woman, but she said, she said, Sam, you know, therapy is just intensified discipleship. Wow. If it's done well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's going to help you be clear where you are sending. Or not sinning or what your choices are.
Yeah. So meaning like, again, kindness to yourself is an act of repentance. Yeah. You are softening, you're inviting your heart to be softened with empathy towards your own pain, which will lead you to be able to love others better. So if therapy is just there to tell you all of the ways you've been wounded and it's not your fault, that's not good therapy.
Yeah. That's very powerless therapy. Like, well then I don't have any choice. No. At some point we're just trying to, you know, as CS Lewis said, um, you know, there are so many reasons you did what you did that have nothing to do with you. Mm-hmm. Like, but it's, it's not that there's nothing you are responsible for.
Right. So he's saying, we're just trying to whittle it down to what is your volition. Right. Where do you have participation in the story? So hopefully if I'm doing a good job, I'm inviting people to that place of choice, like which often involves that first compassion towards themselves. And then, um, and then change that kind of moves out from there.
Yeah, I like that man. That's really good. Um, dude, this has been a really fun conversation. I appreciate, I agree, you taking time. I know we took it in all kinds of ways, but you got the book out, the Sex Talk you never Got, which I think probably most men listening to this podcast never really got a good sex talk or any sex talk at all.
And so many of the, the ways that we view sex and sexuality. Is a result of trying to be discipled by Google and porn and our Yeah. Stupid seventh grade friends that know nothing that told us about sex. You know, like there's so many things that shaped us and we just need to get back to what does God actually say about this.
So yeah, I highly recommend to everybody pick up a copy of your book. The Sex Talk you never Got, I imagine Amazon, Barnes and Noble, everywhere you can get that book. Mm-hmm. But bro, this has been really, really fun, man. Thank you for, for. Uh, just spending some time talking about this stuff. Yeah, absolutely.
Jared, it's good just to sit with you as another dad, another dude. Um, I've loved our conversation. Thanks, man. Yeah.