046 | Jack Orr-Ewing | From Start-Up to 40K 9L cases: Duppy Share's (bumpy) journey to become the UK’s largest independent Rum Brand

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 046 I had the pleasure of chatting to Jack Orr-Ewing. He is the CEO of the Westbourne Drinks Company - The Duppy Share.

He brings an incredible experience of the various stages of brand development from the start to reaching scale in a market. We dived into efficient marketing spend and how to align the route to market to each brand stage. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

0:00 Introduction

1:00 Building Demand

5:09 Entering A New Market

10:43 Selecting Bars

15:11 Differentiating Your Brand For On-Trade

23:08 Utilizing Portfolio To Enter Bars

28:47 The Target Consumer

31:45 The Duppy Share

34:21 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Jack Orr-Ewing

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Jack Orr-Ewing

CEO | The Duppy Share Rum

What is MAFFEO DRINKS | Frontline Insights for Drinks Leadership?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

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Hi and welcome to the Mafia
Drinks podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 46 I had the pleasure

of chatting to Jack or Ewing.
He is the.

CEO of the.
Westburn Drinks Company The

Dappy Share.
He brings an incredible

experience of the various stages
of brand development from the

start to reaching scale in the
market.

We dived into efficient and
effective marketing spend and

how to align the route to market
to each brand stage.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Hi, Jake.

How you doing?
I'm very well.

Thanks, Chris.
Thank you very much for having

me on.
I'm looking forward to talking.

To you, Absolutely.
Welcome to the My Fur Drinks

podcast.
It's a honor to have you here.

I think we bumped into each
other on LinkedIn for a for a

while but never got the
opportunity to speak.

And now, you know, finally we
managed.

So I'm really, I'm really happy.
I'm excited and I'm an I'm an

advocate and I follower of you
on that LinkedIn and look

forward to your your updates.
It's always got interesting

things today.
Thanks Jake.

So let's start with you are the
CEO of Dappy Share.

Let let's dive in on you know
one of my dear topics which is

creating demand versus creating
brand awareness.

I've been in endless
conversation in corporates where

you know all all the brand
managers, marketing managers are

talking about we need to grow
brand awareness.

We need to grow brand awareness
and I get goosebumps when I when

I hear that because you know,
for me brand awareness as such

is a very fluffy term that can
lead to a lot of like money

spent but not in an effective
way.

So what what is your take on?
How do you build demand for a

brand in your experience?
Well, I mean, number one is find

yourself a slot on the hottest
podcast in the country and that

is absolutely the way to go.
But I completely agree with you.

We've been talking a lot in the
office.

You know, we are the UK is #1
premium rum brands.

We do about 30,009 liters.
We've been marketing ourselves

at times at, you know, with big
budgets, at times with more

trimmed budget for nearly ten
years in the country.

You know, we are still not a
well known brand and you know,

brand awareness is something
that is incredibly expensive and

hard won.
And that's just in the UK where

we are quite a significant, you
know, player within the

independent spirits kind of
category.

The big mistake that you you
often make as a independent

spirit is to overly focus on
consumer awareness, trying to

drive your pull through from the
consumers by doing expensive

events or investing in
influencers or putting lots of

money into social media.
When you know, as you say the

the real game is to build your
distribution footprints and to

work with your trade partners to
actually get your product

selling.
And you know, it's an incredible

leap of faith when you really
think about it.

That you're giving away bottles
or spending a lot of money in a

festival or a or giving giving
away drinks or spending money on

an influencer.
For those people to go and buy

what is an awful lot of drinks
from the very few pubs or bars

that you might have managed to
get listed at the early stage of

your brand.
You've got to sell an awful lot

of cocktails to cover £500
influencer fee, which is a tiny

amount of money to spend on
influencer.

So you know, I think the big
learning for me over the last

5-6 years of running this brand
has been to really delay your

consumer marketing until you've
got the distribution footprint

to back it up.
And I think that is later than a

lot of spirits founders might
hope for in their journey.

Wow, that's you.
Don't know how happy you make me

with to to say what you said
because it's exactly my my

philosophy.
Because especially in my

experience is that even if you
approach 1000 consumers,

potential consumers that by the
way drank your brand for free in

that festival, but most probably
or or they bought, they bought

it at a fair price or whatever
they would be, you know, then

even if they love it, they took
a picture of it and then they

have no idea where to go and
find it that that is the biggest

issue.
What I always recommend is that,

OK, I'm not against doing events
as long as they are small, let's

say sustainable events, but they
shouldn't be in the trade where

your product is distributed.
So if I want to go back to it

next Saturday, I know that I can
find that product in it.

There's a lot of people that do
that, that they take, for

example, like a fancy hotel,
rooftop bar or whatever where

they're not distributed.
And then they throw a cool party

with super cool people.
And then these people go back to

their rooftop and there's like,
no, never heard this brand.

Yeah, there was a party.
There was a private party two

weeks ago.
Sorry.

Like we've never we've never
heard that brand since.

Exactly.
And the one thing you quickly

learn about super cool people is
that they very rarely buy their

own alcohol.
They all go to the same parties

and drink for free the whole
time, and none of them bought a

bottle of spirits in their whole
life.

So the worst market to target
with your sampling anyway?

We spoke about distribution.
So how?

How do you move the first steps
in a country?

What was your experience?
Or at least what What would you

recommend to do?
Because does it start with the

neighborhood?
Does it start with the city?

Does it start with the country
itself?

How'd you pick the city?
How'd you pick the place to

start?
So, so I think we were very

lucky in our timing.
So Doc, we founded in 2015 right

in the middle of the Gen. boom
there was, there was kind of new

Gen. brands and distilleries
popping up all over the country,

you know, let alone in London.
And you know we were going into

a bar and saying can I talk to
you about my rum brat?

And they would say don't you
mean gin.

And so the refreshingness of of
it being a rum brand was a was a

little bit of an an end and
there was less of a you know we

were one of the first big
independent, I think we were

first independent Rum Brown
found in the UK for over 100

years when we started in 2015.
You know that is not the story

that is today and it's
incredibly easy to founder

spirit brand today on Master of
Malts when I started there were

250 rum products you know there
are over 1000.

Now there's that just so show
the kind of innovation and the

growth in the category all great
things for a leading independent

spirits brands but it does you
know makes you a lot less unique

and a lot so you know your sales
pitch much harder to land from

from Duffy perspective we don't
own our own distillery.

We don't have a business center.
We were hap.

We were founded in Notting Hill
and Notting Hill.

Carnival is the Europe's largest
St. party and a huge celebration

of Caribbean culture in the sort
of centre of London.

That for us feels like a bit of
a marketing and a kind of that's

where our tribe kind of go to.
And it's a wonderful melting pot

of English Caribbean and
Caribbean diaspora people that

all come to one place.
That's a one moment in the year

where we kind of own it.
But broadly, you know, rum in

the UK is a is a broadly drunk
spirit, but you need to be

listed in an awful lot of
places.

So while our heartland has
always been London, our desire

as a brand is to get into
national listings as early as

possible.
And we've always managed to find

ourselves that spot as the one
independent brand that sits in

the rum category alongside the
kind of mainstay competitors.

And you know, I love walking
into a pub and seeing your

Appleton's, your Mount Gays and
your Krakens, Bacardi, Captain

Morgan and Duffy.
And I love being that one quirky

independent brand within that
category.

And there's probably always a
nice space for an independent

brands within those kind of more
mainstream brands.

And, you know, you might be
seeing a fraction of the volume

that they would be getting
because you can't afford to buy

your space on that list.
But you can definitely justify

your place on that shelf.
And that's kind of how Duffy's

been successful in the UKA.
Slightly different story.

When you talk in the
international markets that we're

in the Czech Republic where you
are is is a good example of

that.
No, we don't have that biggest

independent you know kind of
category card that we can play.

So it is much more of a
traditional bartender by

bartender starts in Prague,
spend a few days in Burno try

and get ourselves into the top
20, top 30 bars and play more of

a kind of premium traditional
route into the market.

But I do think, yeah, UK and
make our route to our biggest

success has been get into the
Nationals as quickly as possible

and try to expand your
distribution footprint from as

early as you can in your
journey.

It it's very interesting what I
what I what I usually talk about

here is is is also like the fact
that there is always for any

spirits category there's always
a traditional consumption

occasion and a modern more
modern one you know a wider 1.

So of course like when you think
of a ram occasion from a

restaurant perspective or from a
bar perspective, we were

discussing this that you don't
actually have a clear ethnic

provenance to to look for.
Like in terms of like what I

gather would have or Italian
spirits or beer would have.

You don't have like a Chinese,
Japanese, you know, you don't

have the the very widely
available, kind of like cuisines

of the world.
Carbon Cuisine is not even in

the top 20.
Most searched for UK cuisines,

you know in the UK.
And I was listening to your your

podcast by Paul Donnas, Doesn't
him talk about it.

If you are a tequila brand, you
can legitimately go to Mexican

restaurants in every city and to
build your Kilo brand to that.

The same for Malfi Gin or
Peroni.

You could just do that through
Italian restaurants.

But the the number of searches
for Caribbean food in the UK is

less than 5000 a month, you
know, versus in the UK, you know

on Google search, the
equivalents in the top 10,

they're most of them are half a
million plus.

Now there's really isn't a sort
of massive interest in Caribbean

food that is changing.
And Turtle Bay Restaurants is

the kind of absolute lighthouse
most amazing partner that we've

got.
And their founder adjects Joe

Acrimer as one of our investors,
has given us amazing access to

the Turtle Bay menu and they're
one of our biggest customers.

They sell more through 50 Turtle
Bay restaurants than we do

through 400 Asda's or 400
Morrisons.

So they're a fantastic partner,
but there's aren't many of those

in the UK.
You know the second biggest

Caribbean restaurant chain I
think of Cotton's who have six

or seven, so it's in the third
biggest is Rum Kitchen with two.

So how did you, how did you
select the the the bars that are

right for you.
So when it when it comes to what

could be a target occasion or
what could be a focus that you

have like do you have a a
typology of outlet that for you

makes sense to start?
From so our sort of perfect

example is between 5:00 and
12:00 sites informal premium is

our kind of what we call an
informal premiums.

It's quite an urban trend that
we've definitely seen in London.

You'll see it in New York.
I probably don't know enough

about the F&B scene and in
Europe to make comment on it,

but places where you've got some
reason you know high quality,

high quality food that's served
in an informal way.

So places like Schoolmate,
Burger Kitchen, Honest Burgers,

Asian Barn, Pizza, Pilgrims
Meat, Liquor, that high energy

food land, they've got a small
menu of maybe 10 drinks and you

can take one or two of those.
They're the sort of places that

might do 3 or 4000 bottles a
year and that and you and you

can get your arms around them.
You can train their staff, you

can give them incentives, You
can get them all wearing

T-shirts and they're selling
enough per site to make it all

worth your while.
That's our absolutely perfect

count.
You know, they're not

particularly geographically set.
You know, even Pizza Pilgrims

doesn't necessarily call itself
an Italian restaurant.

And it's really about, you know,
right target audience.

They like to have a pre or
during dinner drink.

They're the really, really nice
sights.

We love to target those.
To go back to your question

about Rum's occasion, I would
say rum's greatest strength is

it also its greatest weakness at
the same time.

And it's it's kind of
versatility.

You can have a rum punch, you
can have a rum, Old fashioned

mojitos, daiquiris, pina
coladas.

There's this kind of enormous
range of drinks that you can

serve.
And you know you're talking

everywhere from your sundown or
on a beach with your family

where you might have a pina
colada all the way through to

drinking rum and cokes at 3:00
in the morning in a nightclub.

It's a huge stretch of occasions
that to go after and

unfortunately none of them are
really big enough for you as a

independent brand to own.
You know, there's no, after all

spritz moment where enough
people are drinking pina coladas

for you to become a pina colada
brand.

I I was, you know, listening to
you and Paul talking about some

incredible brands.
You know your your Guinness

moments, your Peroni moment,
your after all moments, your

Magna's moment moment.
You know Hendrix, you absolutely

know as someone even not inside
the industry what those moment,

those occasions are, how that
drink is.

They are big international
brands with great distribution

power as well as marketing money
to to create that moment and to

deliver that moment and that
occasion and to have a little

bit of power over your
distribution to be able to kind

of make sure that that moment's
delivered.

I think the kind of difference
of experience between the

independence and the startup
versus the the global, it's just

absolutely no control of your
distribution until quite late on

in your journey and even with a
great distributor that you don't

really have that portfolio
power.

So you know, as much as I would
love to say share is in our

name, rum is a collective
collegiate experience.

It brings people together.
There's no better example of

that.
Serve down the rum punch, it's

got it.
It's steeped in history, It's

delicious drink.
It's very popular.

We would like the Duffy moment
to be a sharing serve, you know,

So we want, you know, punch
bowls.

We spent a lot, a lot of money
and time and thought building

out beautiful punch bowls,
ordering, you know, extra large

cocktail shakers.
It's really tricky for a brand

our size to go into the trade
and say we want to be a rum

punch group serve and I want you
imagine to list my punch bowl,

here's a punch serve.
I want you to put that on the

menu at 25 lbs And serve it in
these gold cups.

They're like, who the hell are
you?

You know, you can't be.
No one drinks this.

No one.
No one's walking into into pubs

asking for Golden Punch bowls at
the 25 lbs Each.

So there isn't a an occasion for
that and we're not big enough to

to drive it.
The role of that independent is

to be nimble and to be flexible
and to work with your sales

opportunities and to kind of fit
your brand into what they need.

And they're looking for a late
night daiquiri.

So you you damn sure you can
make a damn good daiquiri?

I think like what you were
mentioning before like you know

the apparatus priest, the
Hendrix, Jane and so on like

kind of moments that they are
also, you know coming through

many, many years of trial and
error.

I don't, I don't have evidence
of this but you know I'm I'm

pretty sure that in the
beginning like even those big

brands they were not sure about
what to go for.

I'm, I always bring up the
example of Campari because you

know I'm in I'm a big Negroni
and I'm American drinker.

But I'm pretty sure that I mean
when you go to easily there's a

lot of Campari Spritz going on.
So.

So I'm pretty sure that there is
still imperfection into their

execution on OK like well do we
go for Campari Spritz but then

we cannibalizing upper spritz
and then oh are we going single

mindedly for an Americano or an
or a Negroni.

So I hear what you say about the
agility, the blessing and the

curse of rum on you know from
old Fashioned all the way down

to Pina colada.
But when you can get into that

and put that foot in the door
then you know trying to to make

the most out of it.
Because I I was what I was

thinking was when you were
mentioning all those brands that

you know that we share is
sitting next to is how to

differentiate yourself and in a
way you answer with the fact

that you're independent.
But then in the moment in which

there's more independence
fighting for that shelf or next

to that be share, then how can
you differentiate yourself into

the mind of that bartender or
that bar owner?

Yeah, well it's a really good
question.

USPS are easily, easily
explained but poorly understood

from our perspective.
We've over the course of time as

we've scaled what we've managed
to do is use design and the

blends to create something that
tastes really premium and looks

really premium but can can
operate on a commercial basis

that is competitive with our
biggest competitors.

And that's been a real success
story for us and that we can go

up against Havana and with our
white rum compete like for like

on price with Havana Three that
offer a much superior liquid

with a design that is you know
looks a lot more premium and can

command a higher price point.
So a lot of our pitch into the

trade is to say you can get the
kind of big global house

products commercials that you
can charge your consumers a

independence premium, you know
positioning.

So we're we're better
commercials than our independent

competitors and our best kind of
look and feel design and command

a higher price point than our
house kind of global

competitors.
So we're kind of offering them

an improvement against both of
our competitors.

And so I think that is you know
we're able to do that by

leveraging our position as the
largest independent.

You know because we've managed
to achieve that kind of scale of

production that means that our
kind of cost of goods is pretty

competitive with our with our
major global competitors that

it's.
That said, I think we're Duffy

is always going to be good is
going to be in those kind of

medium scale UK brands where we
can put a brand ambassador in

there.
They're going to meet me or meet

George, they're going to get
kind of bespoke menus.

We'll come up with some names of
the cocktails.

We'll give them sort of signs,
bottles from our, you know,

brand partner Kano that we can
do some things as an independent

brand that are pretty kind of
big and interesting, adding

value on a more emotional level
than than either our small

independent friends or our kind
of global competitors.

So you know, I think a lot of
those intangibles do end up

playing quite a big part in kind
of winning those listings.

Yeah, we can get our arms around
and make a difference in there.

Now that's that's very
interesting what you're saying

because that's the the, the best
thing when you deliver to your

customers and to your consumers
a very good you know quality

price ratio and and you
basically basically is is not

worth for them anymore to go
with a more mainstream brand.

Because all of a sudden it's
like I'm going to mean like you

know I can premiumize
effortlessly and convince and

command higher margins for me.
I was having this discussion

with one of the guys at Bacon
Vent in Berlin last October and

we were talking about this with
with some of these brands that

are very premium but then they
are very unaffordable.

And then all of a sudden it's
like yeah, I would, I would love

to to support you and I would
love to support your

independence journey but it just
doesn't make sense for me.

You know I can do it because I
love you Jack and you're a nice

guy you're always here having
old fashioned at my bar.

So as long as possible I can try
to squeeze you in with margins

and so on.
And we were discussing this with

Maurice Doyle.
You know the the love and money

in the in one of the one of the
episodes now like you need.

Balance out the the love and
money.

But at some point, you know, the
love ends if you don't deliver

money either either with higher
margins or with, you know, lower

COGS versus another independent
brand.

And then all of a sudden you
gained your spot and you're

going to be there for a long
time because it makes sense all

of a sudden.
You don't want to bartend kind

of wincing when they have to buy
another one of your brothels.

If it's too expensive, I think
you're going to create a huge

barrier.
I think within rum.

Rum probably has a little bit of
a category issue that there's

not a huge amount of appetite
and interest and understanding

of rums above 30 lbs or €30.
You know, I think there's a very

few brands that hit any kind of
scale above that price point.

Don Paffer and Diplomatico are
the kind of standout success

stories and Stephen Carroll did
an incredible job with Don

Paffer.
Get getting it to that kind of a

scale.
So 250,000 nines in a similar

kind of timeline to us did an
amazing job at that, but it's

really, really challenging to do
it, you know.

And yeah, he, he focused on
markets where there is quite a

good culture for drinking, you
know neat spirits and creating

an occasion.
But couldn't really make it work

in the UK beyond beyond kind of
eight or 9009 liters because

there really isn't like this
this big big kind of a premium

rum interest.
You know people aren't aren't

willing to spend that much
money.

So you've got to kind of compete
in the cocktails and the name

cocktails and rum doesn't have
its names even category call out

to like the gym tonic that is
getting people even aware that

they're drinking rum.
Yeah.

And as a as a rum brand
operator, the number of times

you talk to someone, either a
trade show or friends of dinner

party and there's sort of
gumption, they'll say to you, I

don't really like rum.
Oh, well, great.

That's basically my entire life
selling it.

So thanks very much.
But you sort of then say, well,

do you like, do you like
daiquiris?

Yes.
Do you like pina coladas?

Yes.
You know that.

Well, they're all rums.
The people don't necessarily

know that rum is the kind of
primary ingredient and these

super famous, really successful
cocktails, but they drink all

the time.
You know, rum is always three or

four out of the top 10 cocktails
in the wild.

I can, I can imagine.
Like you know the average person

like doesn't really know because
there's there's no rum in the

name.
It's not like a whiskey sour

that you automatically.
Yeah.

So it's it's made with whiskey,
you know, and and even.

Everyone in the name and.
Old Fashioned is another

example.
It's like you can be done with

rum, with whiskey but some
people don't.

You know, I I only drink Old
Fashioned, you know that.

But they they only know their
category.

Yeah, of Old Fashioned and they
don't know the other ones.

It's very, it's a very
interesting one.

Quite a small number of people
even know that Bacardi is

around.
They think of it as a category

that kind of sits on its own.
They think I drink Bacardi, but

they don't really know that
that's even around.

And what how do you play with
your with your portfolio?

Do you do you play different
games with different SK US or do

you have one one that you use as
the foot in the door and then

you expand distribution with the
others?

Or is there like a flagship or
is more of a portfolio?

Kind of game.
So we we launched them kind of

sequentially.
So Duffy aged was the IT was

just called Duffy Share in those
days and that was the first

product.
It was a blended golden rum, 3

year old Worthy Park Jamaican
rum and a five year old

Foursquare Barbadian rum and you
know SAS on the shelf.

It was a it was a bit of an
everything product.

We're using it in cocktails.
You could drink it on the on the

rocks.
It worked really well with the

rum and ginger or rum and coke.
And as that product grew you

know we were seeing it kind of
sitting on the shelf at

Morrison's and having to do a
you know 28 lbs down to 22 lbs

discounts.
And at the same time it's

sitting on the shelf in
Selfridges at 33434 lbs.

And it was kind of being
stretched in every direction.

But as we kind of chased growth
and we were taking on investor

money to try and kind of scale
the brand up, you knew that you

had to kind of release products
at a lower price points to

protect your initial brand.
And Spice rum in 20/17/2018 when

we launched our Spice Rum was
absolutely flying and growing

from a small base really
succeeding.

So we launched our Spice Rum in
order to protect the premium

positioning and the price point
of our age rum.

So our Our Spice Rum was kind of
built to do the retail job of

starting at 25 lbs, coming down
to 20, driving awareness and

allowing the aged rum to stay
there as a kind of premium

product.
Think what I thought was the

same consumer sitting across
aged and spiced as we kind of

understood and did more insights
and talk to more people.

People are normally either a
spice rum drinker or a rum

drinker and you know, you can
see it in the UK.

There's Ian Burrell who runs the
UK Rum Fest, the Global Rum

Ambassador.
You know, there was a couple of

years where he ran two separate
rum fests.

There was the Spice Rum Fest and
the UK Rum Fest if they are

massively different consumers.
So there was a very little kind

of crossover between those two
brands.

So, so no cannibalization and
definitely acting in different

spaces and often a different
space on the menu or different

space on the shelf between aged
and spiced.

And then we had this great
opportunity in 2021 with a brand

partner that we had been in
conversation with for five years

before that there's a UK actor
and rapper called Kano and we've

been talking to him for years
and we saw he did a bit of promo

for Rare Nephew and we got
obviously very jealous and

thought why?
Why are you working with them?

Come on, let's do a brand
together.

And we started talking to them
about to Kane about doing a

white rum kind of in partnership
together.

And in the process of doing
that, as soon as we even came up

with the idea of a brand called
Duppy White that was going to be

20 lbs on the shelf, it got
listed in tank in Tesco straight

away before we before we'd even
put a label on a bottle or put

any liquid it.
So we suddenly felt ourselves

potentially being dragged down
to a less premium pride, You

know, that's premium portfolio.
So at the same time releasing

Duppy White, we released Stuffy
Exo which was a 40 LB product.

So our our, our portfolios kind
of evolved out of needing to

kind of protect the overall
positioning.

But now that we've got four
products sitting across the kind

of rum spectrum we're able to
have quite a clear commercial

strategy.
So Duffy White is house poor

competitive to Havana Three put
it in the bar and you want it to

be your rum and coke and what
you know your your highest

selling cocktail.
It's a brilliant, brilliant

product for its commercials can
compete on price with probably a

pound more than Bacardi in most
bars.

So it's a pretty good
proposition.

And then the spice and the aged,
so you're kind of premium

upsells and exos.
It's in the back bar and doesn't

move a huge amount, but it
premiumizes the the portfolio

and it does as much of A brand
positioning job as a volume job

for us.
Wow that's that's that's a

really great strategy.
It sounds like it was really

build bottom up because it's not
something made on a PowerPoint

presentation of a portfolio
strategy.

But it comes with time and you
know issues and challenges and

opportunities and you know like
making all things fit with each

other.
Then consumers see the end

result, which is a back bar with
three or four SKU's.

But but like in the in the end
there is something for each type

of consumer.
I heard you guys talking about

the different consumer and the
the the downside of having a

broad portfolio is that you are
talking to a huge number of

people.
You know a Duffy White is a

predominantly urban younger
audience.

Duffy white and Duffy spiced
tend to be drunk by more female

consumers and then you've got
age and exo which are talking to

an older male consumer.
Exos kind of tends to be above

45.
So a tiny brand like us with

with limited resources is
actually trying to talk to kind

of students all the way through
to grumpy old men having a cigar

in their library, you know?
And it's a there's a lot of

different occasion for a lot of
different people in the strength

of having something for
everyone.

The risk is that you've got
nothing for anyone.

What I would argue there is that
there must be a type of person

that looks for that type of
brand regardless of the taste

profile.
It could be someone that is like

it's a connoisseur but then
wants to introduce other friends

and people to the category so
maybe they buy another one for

other people or vice versa.
You know it could be like a a

young girl that you know loves
that brand and then introduced

the the XO to the father or to
the uncle or whatever the aunt

or like the ram drinker of the
family.

But it I I guess and seeing what
you know, your communication,

your website and your your
product, your label, you know it

speaks to a certain type of
people re regardless of the age

and the taste profile.
I think that's true.

Again, go back to your
conversation with Paul.

You know, I think that the big,
the big mistake is to target

consumers that are too young to
be able to afford your products.

It's and as much as Duffy's kind
of aspirational consumer is a

kind of 25 to 35 year old urban
creative, you know, people that

work in AD agencies and come to
our super cool people parties

that we throw.
The reality is when you look at

your analytics, the very sort of
few pockets of lights that you

get as an independent brand on
who's buying your product.

You know, you look at your
Waitrose data, over 50% of our

Waitrose, you know, people that
have bought Doppy Age from

Waitrose are older than 50 and
they never show up on our

Instagram, they never show up to
our parties, you know, but they

like the product.
The price point's about right.

They're maybe trading down from
a malt whiskey or something and

they enjoy brown spirit or dark
spirit.

And they're making that choice
almost entirely on product price

and packaging, having never
tried your liquid before, you

know, because you're a new
product to them, you've got to

kind of have a broad enough
church to bring everyone in to,

to your brand.
And we've been so lucky with our

you've got an interesting name
that is a nice brand hook that

people kind of are intrigued by
without without necessarily

understanding what it means.
And the packaging is really

nice.
Our designer is the most genius

person and the most valuable
asset to our company and the

price point is competitive.
And those those three things are

the things that will get your
consumer to try your product.

The fourth thing is then liquid.
You absolutely have to have a

liquid that stacks up and does
you know, follows through on all

those premium price points, nice
nice packaging and and sits on

the shelf in the right place.
But if your liquid then lets you

down then you're in trouble.
But to listening to your your

views on whether you start with
liquid or start with brand, your

brand is what entices people in
and your liquid is what gets

them to come back again.
But very few people try try your

liquid on, you know, before they
buy a bottle on the shelf.

Or you know, often it's a gift.
I love that if you allow me I'll

I'll steal it with pride and and
and let's let's clarify actually

for the listeners like what was
the reason behind the name

because I, I I love that story
So what's the reason of the of

the Duffy share.
I mean, the name came from so

Duffy was founded by George
Frost, aged 25, was in the

Caribbean.
He was waiting actually for his

brother to come join him at the
bar and was sort of overhearing

a bartender talk to a customer
who was asking what why there

was a shot of rum sitting at the
end of the bar and he said I

asked to keep the Zuffy's away
and he said I will you know what

if the Duffy already talking
about and he said I will they're

the concepts in that in whiskeys
and cognacs called the Angel

share which is the amount of
spirits that evaporates away

during the aging process.
But in the Caribbean we don't

believe that stuff.
We believe that these crazy

spirits called Duffy's, they
come into the distillery, they

swoop between the islands and
they steal all the best rum from

the barrels that's aging and
they blend it together and they

have this massive party And
George interrupts and said, oh,

what do they call that?
And he said, oh, it's, you know,

it's called the Duffy Share.
And you know, for someone who

was at the time thinking about
setting up a a, a rum brand and

trying to think of a name and a
brand positioning that worked.

You know, knowing that you're
not going to have a distillery,

to be able to have a story that
kind of leaned on that caravan

heritage and recognizing the
incredible talent, skill and

heritage of the distilleries
that you're working with.

But while also, you know, being
upfront and legitimizing a

project of being a blended rum.
That Duffy Share story kind of

allows you to lean on that
heritage and to to kind of

recognize the talents and the
skill of those people and then

deliver a beautiful packaged
product that tastes great.

And there's a blend, a blend of
rums, which is kind of what the

project was that we were trying
to do.

So the name in the brand all
kind of stuck up behind the

liquids and it kind of tied the
liquid together with the story

and it was a really nice way of
doing it.

And you know that story told it
1000 times.

But like it's a nice short story
that's just enough for a boss

and or a consumer to remember it
and become an advocate for your

brand without being overly
complex or for anyone to have to

understand or memory.
I remember you know too many

facts or figures about history
A.

Lot.
I love that.

I love that.
That's a beautiful story and

super easy to re retell to
people over I.

Think most people have vaguely
aware of the Angel share of the

story.
It's a good, you know, I think

it's that's a quite a broadly
understood concept and I think

to be able to then twist that
concept and tell it from a

Caribbean perspective and change
it for RUM, it'd been quite a

kind of useful tool.
I love.

I love that.
I love that.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a.

Twoart Episode 46.
And 47, if you enjoyed it,

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