Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take
a moment, often in this space, we
go to a direct thought, a physical
sensation in our body, or an
emotional state that's present.
In this moment, I ask you to
listen to what is arising,
what is taking the center of the
stage, be it your heart, your
thoughts, or a physical sensation.
Taking one breath in and one breath out,
finding center,
and in this meditation,
amplifying your listening,
awakening the witness,
and playfully being
present to what arises.
Breathing in and breathing out,
allowing the calm,
allowing the resistance, Allowing
any sensations, emotional,
physical, or thought, to be present.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Finding your space
and watching it as it sits with you.
Finding the relationship of being
present to your whole system.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Now, consciously and collectively,
showing compassion to this
experience, this allowance,
And your spirit
with no rush and no sense of urgency,
finding your body,
placing hand on heart
and opening your eyes.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
psychedelic psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today, I get to revisit,
reconnect, and reflect with David.
David, how are you coming in today?
Coming in good, very full right now.
Yeah.
You're coming off of a beautiful
experience with MDMA recently.
And before we dive into that,
David, I'm curious, how do you
watch, witness, and listen to.
When it's time to do another session.
Yeah, I think that
this is not my first time doing this
and I'm starting to recognize my body.
Like when I go into these sessions so
many things open up for me and I'm able
to recalibrate and address issues and.
Like focus on things that I really want
to and really, and really deal with those,
those traumas, whatever they might be in
my past, but then I, feel that I get to a
point where almost it's not stagnated, but
I feel as if I'm at a point where my body
feels that call to do something bigger.
It's like, I, I am, I've.
You do kind of these bite sized
chunks at a time that you can really
focus on and then digest and like
sit with and like be with and then
you gain that confidence and that
comfortability with that new existence
that you've created for yourself.
And then once you've gotten to that point,
I think it, you start to look inward again
and start to feel, okay, what is this?
Am I still searching for something?
Am I still questioning something?
Am I still reeling with a situation
or a feeling inside of me that
is not fully resolved yet?
And I think those questions kind
of start to pile up and you're able
to do some of that work without
having to go into a new session.
But I think A lot of the time, those,
your body's like asking for like these
new big reveals to kind of be brought
back to the surface and then for you
to, you've had the time to rest and
regurgitate and like digest a lot of
the things that you've dealt with and
it's like, I'm ready for the next step.
Like thing to work through and, and to
kind of add that new piece of me back in.
That's a vital and really awe
inspiring definition and explanation.
I, I hear when I'm listening, I imagine,
I feel myself becoming depleted and the,
light isn't as strong, but at the same
time, there's an invitational light and
an opportunity that almost amplifies
me to turn towards another session.
Is that what I'm hearing?
Yeah, I think so my relationship
with it has kind of turned a
little bit as well, where it felt
like I, I had to do this work.
I had to like fix myself or
fix these things in my past.
And I think being as have I had a
couple of these sessions, I now view
this as like, Instead of obligatory,
it's like to fix these things.
It's like opportunistic
that I get to grow myself.
Like I've, I've kind of established this
base of who I am and like what my values
are and like grow, grow from there as an
opportunity and not like an obligation.
What's the emotion that I see?
And I'm so grateful for, I
think, I think it's that one,
it's that recognition of just,
of just.
Being happy with you, like being
even just like confident enough
in the place you are right now to
like find peace within yourself.
And it's like that, that knowledge
and that like, actually felt
belief that I feel good about me.
I feel confident enough about me
to like, know I have a safe place.
And I think it's so emotional because
The longest time in my life, I haven't
ever felt like I had a home, like I had
a safe place to be and I finally feel
that safety and I think this like really
heavy emotion is like my body allowing me
to like, let go of these guards, these.
Like protection mechanisms that
I've held for my entire life.
And it's just, there's these
heavy weights kind of slowly being
set down that I can just relax.
And I think my body's like really
thankful for those experiences now.
And hearing it so beautifully articulated,
what is your body saying to you in
this moment, within this minute?
I mean, I think that it's so often I
feel the obligation to have to have like
an answer for something or a, like a
like a rationale behind this or that.
And I don't like, listen to
what I'm saying internally.
Like, I'm not just taking the information,
questioning and asking myself what I
actually feel, what I actually want.
And then saying it out loud.
And I think that even just doing this,
even just talking to you right now,
it's like a, it's like me proving
to myself and showing to myself
that I have these feelings and these
thoughts that I can tap into and ask.
And I can feel confident
enough to like, say out loud.
So I feel like I'm grounding myself, even
at the moment, like I'm rooting myself to
the ground and like feeling confidence in
my voice and my ability to ask myself what
I want to say and what I want to think.
And so it feels good.
Yeah, it's fucking priceless.
I appreciate it.
And thank you for walking us through that.
Can I ask with this emotion
and this regard, what do you.
And how do you revere and
look at the medicines?
I think that, I think that so much of, I
think that it's so often that I'm, before
was blindsided by all these feelings that
I had, that it was hard to like, actually
get a sense of what I was feeling or what
I was thinking or what I was dealing with.
And I think through these sessions
that I've had they've been incremental
and I've like the bait, the first one
being a re baselining, a feeling of
like emotions or like large chunks,
like large things that have happened
in my past, dealing with them directly.
And basically taking the, like
taking some level of control
over those situations back.
Actually finding that they
aren't in control of me.
I have this.
It's this dual self sort of thing where
it was me when I was in that situation.
And now me as a person who can take,
who can take action, who is strong,
sensitive, intelligent person.
It's one of who I genuinely
believe in and care about is able
to go back and like protect that
person who was in that situation.
And it's like, I finally have a friend
who I can walk into those situations with.
Okay.
And recognize that they're the
per the people, the person that I
was during those situations needed
love, needed caring, needed like to
be cared about and deserved that.
And so it's only through
doing this, like work.
Was I able to like actually go and visit
those situations and then also feel like
feel the the resolution actually feel
the resolution because there's so much
of the the thinking like you can think
through so much of this you can like
just I know that they shouldn't have
done this to me I know I shouldn't have
been treated this way I know this it's
like you you can logic your way through
it but like It's only a piece of the
entire puzzle and until you actually
physically feel that that part that that
resolution and you actually allow your
body to kind of be involved as well.
It, it feels like that's the key.
That's really the path forward to like
actually releasing this, this held
belief inside of you that it feels
like a perfect segue into integrating
your last experience, this desire to,
integrate the whole system, the body,
the heart, the spirit, and the mind.
Can you tell me a little
bit about what that's.
like in the last experience you
had and what you're integrating?
Yeah, I mean, the last experience was
significantly more like physical, like
somatic and It it did kind of take me
out of my head, like out of the thinking,
like the rationalizing, the like logical
portion of me, like I'm, I'm a very
logical, like thought thinking person.
And then, I mean, that's to be honest,
part of like a lot of the defense
mechanisms I have is like overthinking
and like being capable of like.
Root causing problems and,
you know, that hypervigilance.
And so this last session was more
physical, more like getting myself in
my body and like, and the ability to
actually feel my body, like actually
feel my chest, feel my legs, feel.
My stomach and then also just recognizing
how much tension I've held inside of me
for that long and how raced I was for
every single situation, like every single
possible conversation I have with somebody
situation I'm in where I'm uncomfortable.
Thinking about what I have to do, what
I've done in the past, everything is like,
my body is physically bracing for some
bad thing to happen or will happen again.
And being in my body this time, I'm
actually sensing that like physical
tension and that ability to like
actually release that, that muscle,
those muscles that have been plunged.
It's like combining the, the
knowing that it wasn't right
with the actual physical release.
Of my body is like a, it's a perfect
pairing of the two things together.
Cause like when you release your
muscles, I feel, I feel actually looser.
I feel less constricted.
I feel less braced against the world.
And when I physical body feels
less braced against the world.
My mind isn't thinking I'm in danger.
I'm scared of this situation and it's
like a Symbiotic thing or it's not
a vicious cycle sort of situation.
That's really beautiful yeah, I get
the imagery of like releasing the grip
and releasing the bracing and with it
there's like a lever of just the just
baggages drop, the weight seems lifted.
And then what I'm hearing from
you, then the thoughts become
clearer and softer and more easy.
Is that what your experience is?
Yeah.
The bracing, your mind is sending
signals to fight, like is like
squeeze those muscles, like fight
against it, tense against it.
It's sending those signals.
It's sending like, The, it's constantly
having to like make decisions like this.
Is this a thread?
Is this not a thread?
Like all of these things
are constantly happening.
And then the physical release is,
you know, I, there's so much more
space just available to be able to
breathe and, and think through things
and not be scared of the situation.
And it allows space for the thoughts to
come in and not a reaction to come out
and like an actual thought to come out.
A lot more reflection time, a lot more
space to listen to what's leading the
way rather than maybe reacting to past.
Yeah.
Things that aren't present.
Yeah, exactly.
It's not reactive.
Cause I think so often I've gotten
really good at reacting and like this
is a new muscle is to like bring the
information in and ask the question
of myself and then bring it out.
What's coming up for you?
I see and hear the smile in your voice.
Would you acknowledging
about yourself in this?
I think it's,
I think I was so, I've been like so
afraid that I didn't have the answer.
I didn't have the, the, I wasn't
smart enough or quick enough or
thoughtful enough on these things.
And it's, you know, I just,
it's not, it's not true.
It's that I never really gave
myself enough space to actually
let that person out or let those.
Thoughts or those, those feelings actually
show to the other person, because it was
always dangerous in my mind to actually
show who that person was to like express
how I felt or what I actually thought.
It was like scary to actually have that
be shown to somebody else because I felt
that their judgment or their their belief
in what I said, like directly affects me.
I think I'm starting to
recognize that that's not.
That's not as much the case anymore.
And then I have just as much
right to be here as anybody else.
I have just as much right to have a
thought or a feeling or take up space.
Tell me where you're sitting right now.
As I see you, that's really beautiful
because you do deserve to take up
space, have a thought, have a feeling
what's alive in you in this moment.
I think.
It's still, it's still new.
It's still like coming in waves
where it's, I, I do believe it.
And then I feel that, like that
rocking back to, are you sure?
Are you sure?
Are you sure?
But it's that waves like back to that
fear state, but it's like, I'm catching
myself and I'm recognizing it's okay.
You're going to be afraid.
You're going to go through this.
It's not going to be like smooth, but it's
okay to kind of swing in these directions.
You are moving in the
direction you want to move.
And it's nice to like catch myself,
like not falling into these like traps
that I've set for myself previously.
And it's fucking really beautiful.
And David, I'm hearing that you're
not extinguishing the conversation
and I amplify and totally value and
validate the desire to have that gentle
conversation with your higher self,
talking to the fear that might come up or
maybe even listening to what age we are.
Right.
And so not only endorsing speaking
to myself, but speaking on behalf
of myself is what I hear you saying.
Yeah.
It's that.
You know, that, that dual, that
dual feeling where I'm showing
up, I can feel my authentic me
showing up more and more often.
And then I do see that slipping into
the, like, you know, it's, it's not
a backslide, but it's a, you know,
you're, you're dipping back into
those, those known mechanisms that
say that protected you in the past,
those things that like genuinely
made me feel safe, made me physically
actually really safe in the past.
Because I've got, I was
really good at that.
I mean, I've done it for over 30
years doing those types of things.
And so, you know, you catch, I catch
myself doing the, my, you know, defense
mechanism or whatever, whatever,
whatever I would typically do that
didn't really serve me in the past.
And I recognize that, okay,
why am I feeling this way?
Who, like, who's feeling this?
And like you said, like,
what age is this person?
Like, I really do.
Like, if I sit with it, I can sense
this is a 10 year old kid, or this
is a kid who's in college or a young
man who's like in his career right
now, like you can sense that like
felt age and like, you can show up.
in a way to talk to that person to like
actually be there and like show that
emotional support for that person who
is needing that at this point in time.
Yeah.
It's really fascinating.
And I appreciate the just
detail that you shared.
Someone I respect recently said,
yeah, the past is the past.
And so too, is the reactivity
to that experience.
And often the reactivity And
how I translate that is the
reactivity can also be put down.
We can still have some discernment
and some similar body sensations
or some emotional sensations,
but that is different because the
past is not happening right now.
We check that and then the reactivity
becomes nuanced and we see, Oh yeah.
And you and I have always talked,
we're not like throwing everything out.
We're not starting from ground
zero, but you're able to go,
okay, this feels true to me today.
And this isn't actually serving me today.
Yeah.
I think that discernment
is a really big one.
Cause I think, you know, I'm not.
So blissed out where I'm like, just
walking into traffic and saying, Oh,
everything is just hunky Dory and fine.
It's not like I'm like throwing
caution to the wind or anything.
I'm, I'm still thinking through things
and like protecting myself when I need
to be protected because you do, I mean,
it's still like a world that you need
to have that discernment in, but it's.
It's actually questioning, is
this an appropriate response?
Is this how I actually feel?
Why is it that I feel this way?
Can I do something about this?
Is this something I need
to do something about?
Can I accept the situation?
Can I fight back?
Can I use my voice?
Is this even a big issue?
Like you actually, I'm starting
to use that discernment and just.
Question my place in the world and what I
actually want and what I need to react to.
It's slow, you know,
it's, it's a new thing.
It's like, it's taking
me a while for sure.
Well, and I have to defend you
and defend many others right now
is we have to remember our life
and how long we've lived, how long
we've been absorbing information,
both from society, from familial
experiences, from life experiences.
And we take our age, and we take all the
lived experiences, and to your point,
it feels like it takes a while, and
it does, rightfully so, but my public
service announcement is if you take
the ratio of the devotional work you've
done with the medicines, and you put
that up against your lived experience.
I see in you today, David,
exponential transformation, evolution,
ascension, healing towards wholeness.
Yeah.
I mean, I couldn't agree more.
I feel this there was steady increase
or like slow increase before doing this,
where I was like questioning things.
I knew things weren't right.
I knew things didn't feel correct.
I was speaking with therapists or speaking
with people in different modalities and
like trying to figure out what it is that
worked for me and what didn't work for me.
And, you know, I would make slight,
I would be slightly better, slightly
here, but I wasn't like, Sitting
with the emotions and dealing
with them like really closely.
And I think as soon as I started
doing this work, it, it's crazy
how quick things have improved.
Like things have, and it's not
easy, but like it's, it's work
that has been so rewarding.
It has been unquestionably the best
thing that I've ever done for myself.
Like it is.
taking, taking back control
of these situations and really
like feeling them and allowing
that to not control me anymore.
I mean, it's been, it's been what, two
years or almost two years since I've
started this kind of like type of journey.
And it's, I feel like I'm on a rocket
ship helping myself become who I'm
supposed to be or who I want to be.
And I'm so incredibly grateful for it.
I don't know how I could have gotten
this far without this kind of healing.
Thank you for saying that, and I, I'm
really humbled by your devotion to
it, and yet, what I always want to
echo is your articulation of it's not
easy, and you know, just because they
call MDMA empathy or the love drug,
it still brings up a lot of work.
A lot of, but it gives us that like
30, 000 foot view as we're integrating.
No, it gives us that deep
relationship to self, but also
vantage point that feels safe.
Yeah, no, it absolutely does.
It's like, as soon as you get into it,
like you, you start to feel these things.
And you have control, like you
have the ability to touch on the
things you want to touch on to the
extent you want to touch on them.
I mean, you wouldn't necessarily be going
into this if you didn't believe that you
wanted to do something like of the sort.
So it's trusting in yourself to know
that you're going to, you're going
to, you want to go into this and then,
trusting that you can take it slow.
You can take it bite sized,
but just trusting that you're
moving in the right direction.
And as soon as you start letting
that in, like letting those in it
gets better and better and easier.
and easier and like you're able to ingest
and digest so much more so much quicker
because you do start trusting yourself
and start trusting the medicine you start
trusting the like the process and like
your body's ability to know what's right
and like and to Just be with it Yeah.
And just to echo what you said, but
also endorse that you're not just
doing this passively after a session.
What I admire about you and just to
insert our relationship is you're diving
into integration very, very consciously.
And you're using the bookends of
preparation and proper conversations
between you and I to really lay
out a firm foundation to land on.
And can you speak a little bit about
that relationship of how you Process
this and what you do after a session.
Yeah, I think, you know, the
sessions are obviously incredibly
valuable and incredibly powerful.
They're incredibly powerful moments
and they really do open you up and
allow you to kind of address things
and be with yourself and feel this.
like feel all the things that we were
talking about but the work that the
work afterwards is really where like
you make big big gains as well as
it's where you've come to and you're
you're living your normal life and
This is just opened your, your body
and your mind up to allow that back in,
like allow you to make these changes.
And so, you know, I'm, I'm constantly
like checking in with my body.
I mean, I start to notice like
I'll hold, be holding tension.
Or I'll be holding like my I'll be
gritting my gripping my hands or clenching
my jaw and I I stop and I try and release
that part of me I try and release that
portion of my body and actually like
try to relax this my physical body.
But additionally, I mean, I'll be on
my like yoga mat at home and I'll lay
and I'll, you know, do essentially like
a non psychedelic psychedelic session
where I'm just sitting and I'll meditate
with music and I put like a towel over
my face and I just sit with it and just
let the emotions like come up and I start
to, you start to follow these pathways.
You start to look and
say, what is this feeling?
Why am I feeling this?
Like, What is a story I'm telling myself
and then like looking at it directly it's
it's so often I feel like I've looked at
things like from my periphery and it's as
soon as I feel something drawing me I just
kind of let it continue to draw me down
the path of where I want like what it is
and it's looking at the the thing directly
whether it's Having a conversation with
somebody I'm afraid of or like, you know,
being, you know, talking to a, a person
in my past that really hurt me or whatever
it is, like looking at that directly and
allowing that, recognizing that I am safe.
I am actually safe.
I am actually not in danger right now.
And then I feel my body actually.
Relaxing and releasing
that, that health tension.
Thank you for that visualization.
Beautiful explanation.
What David, are you doing
to be gentle with yourself?
I think nature is really important
one, like actually being outside and
like walking on the paths near my home.
I think being around
trees is really important.
I'm so thankful that I have a partner
as well right now that is Is curious and
is empathetic and just allows me to have
time with her that allows me to You know
process things when I need to process
them, but also just be quiet and exist
and just be comfortable with with her
It's it's such a nice thing to have safety
within myself, but also safety in this
relationship that I have and we've grown
and fostered together i'm really grateful
for that It's really beautiful and I
can hear it and it's it speaks to the
importance and that you've been devoted to
being vulnerable with them and you've been
curating and sharing the intimacy that you
have for your healing journey and I can
imagine that it's symbiotic with you too.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of these
things where I feel like I'm, I'm
able to feel safe and I'm able to
show like the process that I'm going
through and I actually show to them
that I am properly, you know, be
afraid, but also feel comforted by
somebody else and allow that person in.
I think that's the biggest thing is
allowing them to come in and like
allowing, allowing that love into me.
It's really, really big.
That's huge.
I bow to you, David.
Thank you for this expression.
I see you.
I thank you always.
Thank you very much.