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The Build a Vibrant Culture Podcast explores the real-world strategies behind building strong work culture, improving organizational culture, and leading with clarity in today’s fast-changing business environment.
Hosted by leadership expert Nicole Greer, this podcast features conversations with business leaders, executives, and entrepreneurs who are shaping modern business culture through effective communication, leadership development, and intentional management practices.
Each episode delivers practical insights into leadership and business, including topics like team communication, project management, career growth, and creating workplaces where people perform at their best.
You’ll gain actionable tools, frameworks, and leadership skills you can apply immediately through coaching concepts, real-world examples, and professional development strategies, whether you’re a manager, executive, business owner, or emerging leader.
If you're looking for guidance on building a thriving organizational culture, improving communication, or advancing your leadership career, this podcast is designed for you.
Learn more about training, coaching, and courses at https://vibrantculture.com
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/build-a-vibrant-culture-nicole-greer/
For speaking inquiries: https://vibrantculture.com/speaker-kit-request/
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Want to be a guest? Send your request to podcast@vibrantculture.com
2026 Nicole x Justin Jones-Fosu
[00:00:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, the joy. It is going to have fun with Nicole oh, because we're gonna build a
[00:00:16] Justin Jones-Fosu: vibrant culture on this podcast that will last Even when people laugh.
[00:00:26] Nicole Greer: Oh,
[00:00:27] Nicole Greer: made me so happy.
[00:00:29] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:00:29] Nicole Greer: And I was, I, I was looking at your history and everything, and you're from Grand Rapids originally, so that's, that's like that whole Michigander thing. And then I was like, I, I bet you he was influenced a little bit by Detroit Motor City. Oh, yeah. Motown, so I,
[00:00:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: the bar,
[00:00:49] Justin Jones-Fosu: all that.
[00:00:50] Nicole Greer: Yeah. I went to high school in Toledo and
[00:00:54] Justin Jones-Fosu: oh for real
[00:00:54] Nicole Greer: so it's right next door to Detroit. And then when I graduated they sent me up to up to Dearborn. And so I got a whole bunch of that good R&B background. That's the best music in the world. Makes you happy anyway.
[00:01:09] Justin Jones-Fosu: It does.
[00:01:09] Nicole Greer: Welcome to the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast everybody.
[00:01:13] Nicole Greer: I have the amazing Justin Jones-Fosu Oh, I've got him on the show. I'm so excited. And am I saying your last name correctly? I want to get it right
[00:01:22] Justin Jones-Fosu: perfectly. Yeah.
[00:01:23] Nicole Greer: All right. Awesome.
[00:01:24] Nicole Greer: Awesome. And Justin and I have been like, we acquaintances for a long time. We've been in the national, national Speakers Association for a long time together, Carolinas and National. And I, I don't know, I, I don't know how I got a hold of your, your book, but I was like, I want to I want to have him on the show and have him talk about the book. And so I've got you here today and I'm so thrilled. Thank you for so much for joining me.
[00:01:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'm excited. I mean, now couldn't be a better time, not only with "The Inclusive Mindset" but also "I Respectfully Disagree." And just to have these types of conversations 'cause we, we need it more than ever in our culture today.
[00:01:58] Nicole Greer: Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. So look what he sent me in the mail, everybody, "The Inclusive Mindset": how to create, how to cultivate diversity in your everyday life.
[00:02:08] Nicole Greer: So I'm just delighted to have this. I've got, look how many can you see how many pages are earmarked? Can you see that everybody? I love that.
[00:02:15] Justin Jones-Fosu: So, so I love asking this question. I know we're probably gonna dive into it, but what, what's the number one thing that stood out to you so far?
[00:02:22] Nicole Greer: I, I don't know. I just think it's too much.
[00:02:24] Nicole Greer: But I did do a giant fold on this page. So let's take a look and see what I love so much on these pages. Oh, I see what this is right here. What is an exclusion mindset? So, you know, it's so important that you look at both sides of the coin, right? To see what's on the front, what's on the back. And so we talk about inclusivity, but like, what is exclusivity?
[00:02:46] Nicole Greer: Let's define everything. So we're really clear on things. So that was the thing that stood out to me. And then you have your trademarked inclusive exclusion mindset continuum.
[00:02:56] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes,
[00:02:57] Nicole Greer: but that is all the way on page 41. So we gotta start at the beginning. You want to do that?
[00:03:03] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes. And let, and let's, if you're open to it, let's mix in some stuff on Respectful Disagreement, which is the new book.
[00:03:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because I'd love to kind of like that actually, "I Respectfully Disagree" came out of the inclusive mindset, and it's very interesting how it happened. But let's begin, let's begin this journey.
[00:03:18] Nicole Greer: Okay. Or, or, you know what, Justin, I don't know how much time you want to spend with me, but we could have a whole nother conversation about that because I think this is rich and delicious.
[00:03:27] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:03:27] Nicole Greer: And we should dive into it. So we'll see.
[00:03:29] Justin Jones-Fosu: Let's do it.
[00:03:29] Nicole Greer: All right. So the first thing on page three the very beginning you say, what type of hugger are you? And so I got tickled to death by that because I'm a big hugger. Like people come to shake my hand and I go like this, you know, I put my both arms out front and they're like, oh, she's coming in for a hug.
[00:03:45] Nicole Greer: You know? So I love that. And it says, you grew up in a very hugged filled family. You're a mama's boy and that you love to hug the dog and the cat. So I'm like, you know, well, that's why I, I like Justin so much. So this chapter is about embracing the right approach. Will you talk a little bit about the right approach to this whole concept of diversity, equity, and inclusion?
[00:04:07] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. So for me, the approach begins with the hug, right? And so that's why I love the, the thing. And so this, what we found in, in our, our, our unofficial research is that there are different types of huggers. There's the, you know, the handshake person, hello, it's good to see you. It's the hand hug, right?
[00:04:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: There's the side hug, right? There's the, you know, the hand, you know, the other hand hug, which I'm not sure anybody still does anymore, that then you have that.
[00:04:31] Nicole Greer: I
[00:04:32] Nicole Greer: don't know that one,
[00:04:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, I'm gonna hug you, but my body's not gonna touch you. Hug. Yeah, in the south we call that the church hug. And and then you have that full on frontal hug that you're like, oh, right.
[00:04:45] Nicole Greer: Yeah.
[00:04:45] Justin Jones-Fosu: And interesting thing is that oftentimes, oh, and I forgot the other people, there's some people, when I ask them to hug, especially in my presentations, they're looking at the person to the left of them and to the right of them and say, if you touch me. Hashtag diversity. Right. So the interesting thing is that how we show up and how we approach this conversation matters.
[00:05:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: If we approach it from a very don't touch me approach, we're likely not gonna learn even if we approach it from a very formal handshake. Right? I, I'm, I'm supposed to do this. It's not gonna seep into our souls in a way that it makes it an everyday aspect of our life where it becomes a part of our mindset.
[00:05:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: It's when we fully embrace it. Right? And I'm not talking about fully embracing ideologies that you don't agree with. I'm not talking about embracing those things, but embracing people and the humanity that exists, that's the full embrace. And so, that dovetails nicely into what you brought up which I think is a part of this approach, is the inclusive, exclusive mindset continuum.
[00:05:47] Justin Jones-Fosu: And that p we found that there's four different types of people when it comes to this conversation. They're the, there's the, I don't want tos, right? Not gonna learn. There's the, I have tos, right? And they're the ones that have the body posture with the arms crossed, like, you know, company's making us do this.
[00:06:02] Justin Jones-Fosu: So, I'm here. So I, I want to take that out a different context for a second. Imagine you're on your first date to McDonald's. Sorry if McDonald's is one of your sponsors, but you're on your, your first date to McDonald's, right? And you have a Happy meal sitting there and you're like, I really don't want to be here.
[00:06:16] Justin Jones-Fosu: but The app says I'm supposed to, so I'm here. Right. It's probably gonna be your last date for several reasons. Our goal with this work is to get people to the, "I get to" and "I love to," and the "I get to" is like, I get to experience people. I get to experience difference because it makes my life richer and I love to, and I'm not talking about training right.
[00:06:42] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'm, I'm talking about where we leave our home bases and we get to experience the beauty of people and cultures around us. That's the, the approach I'm talking about.
[00:06:51] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And that's so funny. 'Cause you know, I tease all the time. I, I do tons of training Justin and I'll say, you know, there's three types of people that come to training.
[00:06:59] Nicole Greer: The first type of person is what I call the lifelong learner. That's the person that gives the full on body hug, doesn't need to know you They're ready, they're ready to embrace it full on. They're like, I know I'm gonna get a nugget. I know there's gonna be an opportunity where I'm gonna need what I'm just about to be taught.
[00:07:13] Nicole Greer: You know?
[00:07:13] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:07:14] Nicole Greer: There's that person, and then there's the person who is the hostage. You know, like they don't want to be there. And then there's the vacationer. Oh, there's training, will there be lunch? You know?
[00:07:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: I love that
[00:07:24] Nicole Greer: if we get done early, do I get to leave? Do I get to go home early? Yeah. You know, so like that's, I, that's, I've always teased about that, but like, that's what we're talking about here.
[00:07:32] Nicole Greer: And I, I couldn't agree more. And I think that this embracing thing is like the lifelong learner. Like, I can't get enough information. Like I really want to understand how the world works and hello, how could I make it work better? Yeah. And me be part of it. Right? Yeah. So good. So good. Yeah. And so, you know, I love in your book too, at the end of every chapter, everybody, he puts in there kind of like three action items that you can do, right?
[00:07:55] Nicole Greer: So it's not just a book to read, but it's a book to digest, right? Yeah. Like, so, like, how could I really chew on this? And one of your things you, you say in here, which I don't think a lot of people have done Justin
[00:08:06] Justin Jones-Fosu: mm-hmm.
[00:08:06] Nicole Greer: Is write down your honest thoughts when you hear the terms: diversity and inclusion and maybe how your past experiences have shaped that perspective.
[00:08:16] Nicole Greer: Yeah, I think that's a huge challenge, but would serve the world in a powerful way.
[00:08:21] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. I 100 agree with you. And the reason that, that I find that it's important is because what I've realized is that we all have different starting lines and different starting points. Some of us have come to this conversation and it's been very positive in the sense of like,
[00:08:35] Nicole Greer: yeah,
[00:08:35] Justin Jones-Fosu: diversity is a good thing and powerful and we need to learn.
[00:08:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: I mean, I learned that from my mom growing up because my mom was one of the first black female air traffic controllers in the Air Force, and she shared
[00:08:45] Nicole Greer: Ha Good for her.
[00:08:47] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, she shared her story with me and I was just really glad, you know, I interviewed her for the book and I was just like, mom, like, where did you get this perspective?
[00:08:54] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because I realized it didn't come from me, Nicole, it came from my mom, and she shared how there were some times she'd be stationed in Japan for two years, and in that same two year timeframe, there were some soldiers who had the opportunity to, but never left base. She was like, Justin, I don't want you and your brothers to be like that, to never leave your home base and not get to experience the beauty of people and culture around you.
[00:09:16] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so my mom would take us to stuff that we didn't know a lot about. And even stuff that we disagreed with, Nicole, I remember sitting there like, why are we here? But I realized that my, my mom did for me is that she cultivated this, this understanding of that there's humanity, even in those that we disagree with.
[00:09:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so that's how I was introduced to the concepts of diversity and inclusion. But other people have not been introduced in that same way. And so understanding where our starting point is, is so powerful for how we move forward in embracing it. So I love it. Like even right now, I love Nicole. You're not gonna believe me and I say this, but I'm sure.
[00:09:53] Justin Jones-Fosu: I love when people tell me that they don't, they don't like or care for diversity. I love it. I love it. You know why? Because my first question back is not or is not a statement, it's a question. It's not, oh, I can't believe you said that. Oh, da da blah, blah.
[00:10:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: My first question back, Nicole, is how do you define it?
[00:10:13] Nicole Greer: Yeah.
[00:10:14] Nicole Greer: I don't think, I don't think they do. I think they just look at it and It's like a judge thing.
[00:10:19] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, the judge. The judge. The word. Mm-hmm. But part of it has been prac. Some of us practitioners have been at fault. I, I, I used to operate from this space is that diversity became about the big three, right?
[00:10:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: It was about race, gender, and identity. I realized that even as I was doing that was that we are, sometimes we've been boxed in the message. For me, diversity is every single one of us. Diversity in its simplest form is just difference from the macro perspective. Now there's a lot of micro areas and race, gender, and identity and religion and politics and belief systems, all that stuff.
[00:10:52] Justin Jones-Fosu: Economics is all a part of that. But every single person, whether. you're You know, blue, white, black, all the things right? Or however you identify whatever gender you have and what you identify, all those things is that we are all a part of this thing called diversity because every single one of us is different.
[00:11:11] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right. Yeah. It all goes back to the snowflakes and the fingerprints. I'm just, I mean, people haven't they got the fingerprint snowflake message yet? I mean, it's a good thing, right? That's right. That's right. Okay. And so, you say in here, you know, that there's just a little secret to working with diversity and, and it's this thing of difference.
[00:11:31] Nicole Greer: right that like accepting this fact that people are in fact different and that we can, we can embrace them. And I love how you come at it in the book because one of the things that I think is similar between building a vibrant culture and building a knowledge base and an awareness of how important diversity is, is that you do it one person at a time.
[00:11:52] Nicole Greer: You know, like we're working on diversity, so we're having a training or we're working on culture, so we're having a training, but really what we want to do is we want to you know, invite people to understand it for themselves and, and, and do see it with fresh eyes and an open mind.
[00:12:07] Justin Jones-Fosu: 100 And now if you allow me to give some shades of gray to that.
[00:12:10] Nicole Greer: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Justin Jones-Fosu: I promise you it'll only be 49 of the shades. Okay. But the interesting thing is, is that yes, absolutely. So the inclusive mindset has been my focus, right? And I used to be very prideful. I'm gonna be honest with you about this part particular point. I thought that my approach to this message was the only approach, and I realized that that's not true, is that we need both.
[00:12:34] Justin Jones-Fosu: Kind of this interpersonal focus, but we also need it on the macro organizational level too. And the reason that that's important is because sometimes the, I can, we are the only people that we can, you know, hold ourselves accountable to. Right? Like I can only make choices for me. But From an organizational perspective and our work with leaders is that we can actually create better cultures where people can engage in these conversations more.
[00:12:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: Let me give you a great example. There's an organization that we work with that began to do these opport, create these moments for both formal and informal conversations to hear people's stories. Right. And so I love from a leadership perspective, they created this place where they, people started having conversations and realizing that we're actually more similar than we thought.
[00:13:19] Nicole Greer: Oh,
[00:13:20] Nicole Greer: that's exactly right.
[00:13:20] Justin Jones-Fosu: I had, I had othered, right? And, and so that's why I think it's of both, it's that we can only control ourselves, but if we are leaders, we have the opportunity to create these both formal and informal opportunities for people to better connect and, and that's how we build more vibrant cultures.
[00:13:37] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. I have this exercise that I do with people all the time called vibrant identity. And in that exercise, you know, talking about having formal and informal conversations, we formally introduce it. But I think what happens is there's all these spinoff conversations afterwards, you know, and in that vibrant identity we talk about, like, you know, when you popped on the planet, what were you given?
[00:13:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. '
[00:13:59] Nicole Greer: cause that, that's all, that's the only perspective you have is like where you came from and what you know, and whether or not you had a great mama like Justin or not, you know? And and then we talk about all the positive choices you made in your life. And people start to find common ground, you know, like, oh, I did this and that was really good in my life.
[00:14:15] Nicole Greer: And it's like, just like, oh, I can relate to that choice, you know? And then at the core we talk about, you know, what do you really value? And like. You know, nobody ever puts something ugly in the middle of like, what they really value. You know, it's always something that we can all relate to. So I, I agree.
[00:14:32] Nicole Greer: Those, those conversations are huge and, and you go on in the book to talk about having a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset which is based on the work of carol Dweck yeah. Who's been doing this work. Yeah. She's been doing this work for a bazillion years. Yeah, and so talk, teach everybody a little bit about growth mindset versus fixed mindset, because I think you do need a growth mindset in order to, to embrace all of this.
[00:14:55] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I'll tell it to you a story form. So,
[00:14:58] Nicole Greer: yeah.
[00:14:59] Justin Jones-Fosu: I, I, one of the things I've started doing in my life, right, because I, in reading Carol Dweck's work around growth mindset, I started to ask, alright, how do I do it? It's this, you, are you born with it? Can you cultivate it and can
[00:15:10] Nicole Greer: you
[00:15:10] Nicole Greer: can cultivate?
[00:15:10] Nicole Greer: it yeah
[00:15:11] Justin Jones-Fosu: And she talks about how you can cultivate it, right? And so I was like, so I started doing this thing every year called a birthday challenge. So, and I, and I encourage your listeners to consider this as well. Mm-hmm. So every year on my birthday, I ask myself a question, what's one thing that I've never have done but would consider doing Right.
[00:15:27] Justin Jones-Fosu: Or have always thought about doing? And so it's led me to be able to run a marathon, to climb Mount Kilimanjaro, to learn how to sail, all these different things. But I'm gonna bring you into the one example of when I first learned how to ski. 'cause even though I grew up in Michigan we grew up very poor, didn't have a lot of money initially.
[00:15:45] Justin Jones-Fosu: Grew up on the welfare system. My mom worked her butt off and we eventually got off right? And so all these things, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to ski at this little place called Vail, Colorado. Not, not where, not very well. No,
[00:15:56] Nicole Greer: they don't have very tall hills
[00:15:58] Nicole Greer: in Michigan either, by the way. Everybody,
[00:16:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: yeah, we
[00:16:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: don't.
[00:16:01] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes. Yeah. But but I, so I'm in Vail right? I'm just having a good time in my middle thirties at the time with some of my fraternity brothers, and I am falling over. I am, you know, bundled up. I'm, you know, on the little magic carpet just trying to scoot up. And these little kids who are like 5, 6, 7 years old, I like whooshing past me, like, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh.
[00:16:22] Justin Jones-Fosu: Right and I'm just like, I'm feeling
[00:16:24] Nicole Greer: They don't even have any ski poles.
[00:16:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: No. Right, because they don't, they, they learn without it. And Nicole, I'm feeling embarrassed. I'm feeling like, why am I here? I shouldn't have made this decision. And you know what? It's because I'm comparing myself to them and where I think I should be, rather than taking the perspective of how do I learn, keep growing and utilizing, quote unquote failure as another data point of learning rather than a data point of doubt.
[00:16:51] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so this is where I began, keep coming back and I kept going back. And now I don't, I don't go to Vail every year 'cause that's be very expensive. But I go now in North Carolina to Sugar Mountain and guess who I take with me?
[00:17:03] Nicole Greer: Your babies
[00:17:03] Justin Jones-Fosu: I take my
[00:17:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: kids.
[00:17:05] Nicole Greer: Yeah.
[00:17:05] Justin Jones-Fosu: Who
[00:17:05] Justin Jones-Fosu: became those little kids that were coming down?
[00:17:07] Justin Jones-Fosu: Whoosh. Whoosh. And this is the essence of the growth versus fixed mindset, is that fixed mindset People, they only do things that make them look good, especially compared to other people. That they look at failure as final and just a cement cementing of their doubt of that they couldn't do it and they don't want to be perceived as ignorant, where growth mindset folk, they lean into this concept of the only competition is who it's myself.
[00:17:41] Justin Jones-Fosu: And that data is just learning and that if I don't know something, it's the power of the not yet.
[00:17:48] Nicole Greer: That's right.
[00:17:49] Justin Jones-Fosu: And that's the beauty of the growth mindset. And so I encourage us, it's, you know, we often shy away from things that we're unfamiliar with because we don't want to be perceived as ignorant and unknowledgeable and not knowing, rather than walking head first into it to learn to grow and to make progress.
[00:18:07] Justin Jones-Fosu: And that's the journey that we're on with the growth mindset.
[00:18:11] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right. And so, you know, I, when I did my capstone project at Queens University, I did it on the growth mindset. And my favorite part was this part about, you know, you know, how how's it coming along Eh not so good.
[00:18:24] Nicole Greer: But I'm not yet, I haven't learned it yet.
[00:18:26] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes.
[00:18:26] Nicole Greer: You know,
[00:18:27] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes
[00:18:28] Nicole Greer: and so the work that I did was based on "not yet," which was this thing of like your ability to deal with ambiguity. Yeah. Like I think that's a huge, a huge thing to think about is like being okay with the what you don't know and being okay with the unknown is really important.
[00:18:46] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:18:46] Nicole Greer: You know, like, it's all gonna be okay. It'll all work out, you know? And so I would flip that to this place of just have faith in people. Have faith in the situation. Mm-hmm. And then the resilience to get back up and go again. Right. So it's really a growth mindset requires a great deal of building of character to be okay with messy, you know?
[00:19:03] Nicole Greer: Yeah. So I think that's fantastic.
[00:19:05] Justin Jones-Fosu: And, and if I could dovetail because you, what I love that you do in your sessions around helping people to connect things that they've already done or that they've done well, I, I want to use this in this moment. Imagine for those who know how to ride a bike, remember when you learned how to ride a bike?
[00:19:19] Nicole Greer: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:20] Justin Jones-Fosu: Some of y'all like this, you know, been eons ago. It's like, in order to learn how to ride a bike, we had to fall. We were so excited about the possibility of being able to ride and ride with without our hands and ride, without hopefully still wear your helmet. But yeah, we were, we were just so excited about the possibility of what could happen and what could come, that we were willing to fall to break bones, to have scrapes in order to get there.
[00:19:46] Justin Jones-Fosu: And what if we adopted that same philosophy in our lives today? Is that We're going to fall. And that's exciting because of the possibilities of connecting and building a better culture, both organizationally and better culture societally, when we step into that, that that zone. So that's, that's why I just want to bring us back to that, that riding a bike
[00:20:08] Nicole Greer: Yeah, that's so good. Because, you know, the thing is, is that you gotta face fear head on. Like you could, you know, crash and burn and scrape your knee and stub your toe and knock your head on the sidewalk and, and do all these things. And so it's just having that, you know, like I, I love what you said is, is tapping into what's possible.
[00:20:26] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah,
[00:20:26] Nicole Greer: right. Like, what's possible if I ride this bike, it means I could get over to my friend's house in 15 minutes instead of having to walk over there in an hour, right? So don't miss that, you know, possibility will thinking will help get you there faster, more efficiently, do all sorts of things. Okay?
[00:20:42] Nicole Greer: All right. So chapter three is, is a, is called diversity redefined. And so you say on Chap let's see. Let's see. What page are we on? 28 26. Merriam Webster defines diversity as the condition of having or being composed of differing elements. Okay. And so, you know, I, I think it's good to slow down for us to define diversity.
[00:21:02] Nicole Greer: And so you also say diversity is not sitting around the campfire and singing kumbaya or handing, holding hands and singing Queen Latifah's rendition of unity, or We are the world. All right? So, you know. Get, get into that a little bit. The difference between what it is and what it isn't.
[00:21:19] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, so what we've started to say, I want to start first by saying what it's not so that we can get to what it is.
[00:21:24] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so,
[00:21:24] Nicole Greer: okay, sure.
[00:21:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: As you mentioned, it's not that kumbaya experience where I have to agree with you, right, that real diversity is that even when we disagree that we can still respect each other. It's also not the big three, and even how we talk about it, it's been interesting. I remember when I first kind of encountered this, it was the 2016 primaries.
[00:21:41] Justin Jones-Fosu: And Oh yes, I'm talking about politics. Sorry, y'all. And in 2016 primaries the interesting thing happened was, I remember the newscasters came on and they, they came on. It's like, we've just been to Iowa, we're headed to New Hampshire, but wait till we get to the more diverse states. And I remember screaming at the tv like, no, I have been to both Iowa and New Hampshire.
[00:22:05] Justin Jones-Fosu: They're both extremely diverse.
[00:22:08] Nicole Greer: Right. Labeling, labeling, labeling.
[00:22:10] Nicole Greer: What
[00:22:11] Nicole Greer: the heck?
[00:22:11] Justin Jones-Fosu: Aha. The question is what type of diversity are we talking about? And so as, as, as I've encountered people, I've asked people to consider using prefixes for diversity. So are you talking about gender diversity? Are you talking about religious diversity?
[00:22:26] Justin Jones-Fosu: Are you talking about economic or cultural or language diversity? Ability to call it out, because sometimes in our desire to be more inclusive, we have actually excluded whole groups of people even in this conversation, and that's why for the last 10 plus years I've been screaming like, y'all, we have to start talking about this differently.
[00:22:44] Justin Jones-Fosu: Or else there's going to be a rebellion against diversity and inclusion.
[00:22:49] Nicole Greer: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:49] Justin Jones-Fosu: And Nicole, that's where we are today.
[00:22:51] Nicole Greer: Oh, I know.
[00:22:52] Justin Jones-Fosu: It's
[00:22:52] Justin Jones-Fosu: because it's how we've talked about it. Oh like, I, I went to that place. it wasn't very diverse. I'm like, what are you talking about? There's a lot of different people. A lot of there.
[00:23:01] Justin Jones-Fosu: There's
[00:23:01] Nicole Greer: Right, how many places did you go?
[00:23:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: Right. And not even at one place, but like think about like you could come from the same place, look very similar and could you still be very different?
[00:23:12] Nicole Greer: Of course.
[00:23:14] Justin Jones-Fosu: And that's why we came to this opportunity, that diversity, at a simplest form, it's just difference Even in our families that might be very similar, there's extreme differences. Y'all know, you know, the extroverts and introverts that's the difference, right? Uncle Bob that comes to the family gathering, you know, we, you love Uncle Bob.
[00:23:32] Nicole Greer: We're not sure about Uncle Bob sometimes,
[00:23:35] Justin Jones-Fosu: right? Sorry for all the Bobs out there.
[00:23:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: Right? It's it, it's the new Karen. Okay. But the interesting thing is how do we show up? And so diversity is difference It's also an opportunity for growth. It's not something that we have to be perfect at. And the last thing is that we take the tortoise approach and, and one of my favorite fables growing up was the tortoise and the hare.
[00:23:56] Justin Jones-Fosu: I, I'm actually my birthday challenge this year is studying the tortoise. Right? I've been really impassioned I just came from the Galapagos for a week and I just was doing,
[00:24:03] Nicole Greer: oh stop
[00:24:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: tortoises. Just having a great time and it's this apart, is that we've often mislabeled the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare.
[00:24:12] Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, because we called the tortoise
[00:24:14] Justin Jones-Fosu: Eddie
[00:24:15] Justin Jones-Fosu: Slow. The tortoise wasn't slow. You know why tortoise wasn't slow? Nicole? Because slow is a comparison term, but the tortoise was resilient. The tortoise was wise. The tortoise kept going. The tortoise, if I could say this was vibrant because
[00:24:35] Nicole Greer: Oh yeah, it
[00:24:35] Nicole Greer: was
[00:24:36] Justin Jones-Fosu: because it was his journey.
[00:24:39] Justin Jones-Fosu: So all of us, no matter what journey we're on, we don't have to know all the acronyms and all the things, and we don't have to have DEI tattooed on our left arm, right? Like all we have the opportunity right where we are to make progress. And last but not least, that diversity doesn't mean we'll, we'll never make mistakes.
[00:24:59] Justin Jones-Fosu: I've been doing this work for over two decades and I am still learning. I still make mistakes.
[00:25:04] Nicole Greer: Of course,
[00:25:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: I still have wrong thoughts, like even a little small, something small. Like did you know that when you're hashtagging something, whether on social media, LinkedIn, other places, that you should capitalize the first letter of every word because those who have a reading disability, the reading software can't pick up all uppercase or all lowercase letters.
[00:25:22] Justin Jones-Fosu: That's a small moment of inclusion that creates vibrant cultures that we all seek and desire. So we're, we're learning together.
[00:25:29] Nicole Greer: Hmm. So good. So good. Yeah. And I, I, and I love the fact that you talked about the tortoise and the hare because,
[00:25:35] Nicole Greer: Again, I think it comes down to like the character traits of the, of the tortoise.
[00:25:41] Nicole Greer: Right. You know?
[00:25:42] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:25:42] Nicole Greer: So he might've been quote unquote slow and steady, but he didn't take a nap. You know what I mean? He kept on working. Yeah, working.
[00:25:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: And he
[00:25:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: wasn't slow. Let's stop this comparison. He was steady.
[00:25:52] Nicole Greer: That's right.
[00:25:53] Nicole Greer: That's right.
[00:25:53] Nicole Greer: Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Okay.
[00:25:57] Nicole Greer: And then you go on to,
[00:25:59] Nicole Greer: The next chapter and you talk about inclusivity in inc. An inclusive mindset. And what is an exclusion, exclusion mindset. And that's where I had the pages turned over. And you have in here,
[00:26:11] Nicole Greer: The inclusive mindset is different,
[00:26:13] Nicole Greer: from an exclusion mindset in 10 key ways. We could probably do 10
[00:26:17] Nicole Greer: podcasts on these 10 ways Yeah. So the first one is a person with an inclusive mindset focuses on trying new things, even when difficult, when someone with an exclusion mindset focuses on only engaging in conversations and experiences that are easy. And that's what we've been talking about, but I wanted to say that whole thing.
[00:26:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. No thank you for sharing that. I mean, one of the things that is part of our tortoise principles, we call it Nestle into the hard. If we have a wise and steady framework, right? We, we took away the slow but wise and steady and nestle into the hard is, is something that I've learned from my mom, right?
[00:26:55] Justin Jones-Fosu: I, I used to wonder like, why would my mom make us go to events that we disagreed with? Like, why would she have us at these places? And it wasn't until realizing that she, these seeds, those planted around humanity. And so I like learning, right? And so part of learning is also learning. Sometimes what not to do.
[00:27:16] Justin Jones-Fosu: Sometimes learning helps me confirm my choices. That's, and sometimes learning is just understanding somebody's story of how they got there. Let, let, let's talk about something difficult. You, you want to talk about having difficult conversations. Let, let me introduce some of your listeners. Some of you all have heard of this guy, but the gentleman called Darrell Davis.
[00:27:36] Justin Jones-Fosu: Now Darrell Davis is a black blues musician who befriends Ku Klux Klan members. He, he goes to Klan rallies, not to shout people down, but to actually go and hear their stories.
[00:27:50] Nicole Greer: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:51] Justin Jones-Fosu: And he's been credited whether directly or indirectly, with over 200 Klansmen turning in their robes because of his approach.
[00:28:02] Justin Jones-Fosu: Some former grand Masters grand wizards have even made Darryl Davis, the grand, the godfather of their children. Why? Because Darryl Davis didn't shy away from having difficult conversations about hearing perspectives that might be outside of the norm. Because he saw the possibilities even in scraping his leg on the sidewalk of what could happen from the power of hearing someone's story.
[00:28:30] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so this is the essence of why the inclusive mindset rather than exclusion mindset is important, is because when we choose to hear and connect to people, not everybody will change. I'm sure every, not every Ku Klux Klan member that you talk to changed. I know that's not, not in fact, but I do know that some have.
[00:28:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: and That we have the power to grow and change, and that's the beautiful aspect of this.
[00:28:54] Nicole Greer: Yeah. It's about the one sheep. Yeah. There's one sheep out there you're supposed to find and,
[00:28:59] Nicole Greer: Help them. Help them. See. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So the second thing you're saying here is a person with an inclusive mindset takes initiative and an active role.
[00:29:07] Nicole Greer: And that's what you're talking about right there. Yeah, right. Number three is a person with an inclusive mindset listens deeply to what other people have to say.
[00:29:16] Justin Jones-Fosu: What you say?
[00:29:16] Nicole Greer: I said a person would.
[00:29:17] Justin Jones-Fosu: What did you say, Nicole?,
[00:29:18] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'm just messing with you.
[00:29:19] Nicole Greer: Oh see, I'm such a sucker. You know what Justin? You're starting to act like my brother and I don't appreciate it.
[00:29:28] Nicole Greer: I.
[00:29:30] Justin Jones-Fosu: But I am your brother, Nicole.
[00:29:32] Nicole Greer: Well, my brother from the same mother. That's what I'm talking about right now. Oh my goodness. So you know I it, you know, always fall for it. Okay. So number four, a person with inclusive mindset reflects and recognizes their faults and seeks feedback. See, that's, that's the, that one's about ego.
[00:29:51] Nicole Greer: That's what I think. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
[00:29:54] Nicole Greer: yeah.
[00:29:54] Justin Jones-Fosu: And before you jump forward, I, I want to give strategies because I'm a strategist. Right. Let's do it. I sometimes feel like this message is so big that people don't know where to start. They don't know how to engage. And so two things that you mentioned around the inclusive versus exclusion mindset.
[00:30:09] Justin Jones-Fosu: One was about
[00:30:11] Justin Jones-Fosu: taking a proactive approach. It's not just being passive. And so one way that we can do that, one strategy that we've encountered, I'll give you a mathematical formula called 1MC/W which simply stands for one meaningful connection per week. What if you built into your calendars 15 to 20 minutes to have a meaningful conversation with somebody at your job, in your community,
[00:30:32] Justin Jones-Fosu: At the school, or your children, or all the things, or at the pet daycare, whatever that thing might be, and to just.
[00:30:38] Justin Jones-Fosu: Ask them about them. I, I, I believe in and operate by this statement is that we should seek to be more interested than interesting, right? And as we have these meaningful conversations, we learn about people and experiences and grow, and that, create that formula allows us to move forward. And you may say, Justin, that's too much because that's 52.14 times a year.
[00:30:57] Justin Jones-Fosu: Well, I'm glad you challenged me. We'll flip the w upside down and make it one meaningful connection per month. But maybe it's a lunch. That's the opportunity for us to develop. So that's the strategy behind that. In deep listening, the strategy I want to give you is we, we call it the power of three. What we found in our research is that most people only listen to the power of one or the power of two.
[00:31:18] Nicole Greer: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:19] Justin Jones-Fosu: It's because they can't wait to bring it back to them themselves. So imagine a power of three like this Nicole, and say, Hey Nicole, how are you doing today? You're like, I'm fine. I'm like, I'm fine too. That's power of one. If I took it one step further, I was like, oh, what makes you fine? Oh, I was talking to this interesting Baldhead speaker.
[00:31:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, I remember that Baldhead speaker. That's, that's, that's two, right. But three, I was like, what made him interesting? And he was, oh, he's talking about, you know, one meaningful connection per week. He was talking about how we move to an inclusive mindset like, oh, and see. When we stop at the power of one or power of two, we're not genuinely listening. In a distracted world, the way that we have deep listening is engaging with the power of three.
[00:31:56] Justin Jones-Fosu: So I, I want you to, as you're listening to this episode, the next person you talk to, I want you to practice the power of three. Our brains are triggered, and sometimes this is what I love doing this in our sessions, is that people want to jump in. It's not because they're egotistical or narcissist, it's because they're trying to find connections.
[00:32:14] Justin Jones-Fosu: But be very careful in your desire to make connections that you don't end up taking control. So somebody says to you, you ask 'em how their weekend was and they're like, oh, I went to this great seafood restaurant. Instead of doing what we about 96% of us do is like, but have you been to this one? What if we asked them, what made that restaurant great for you?
[00:32:35] Justin Jones-Fosu: And begin to dig deeper into their journey. I just want to give some strategy as we think through the, some of the concepts.
[00:32:41] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And you know, my mind is going a million miles an hour listening to you because in the, in the rest of the book you talk about powerful questions, which is a huge part of what I do and build a vibrant culture is teaching people to ask questions.
[00:32:53] Nicole Greer: In fact, many of my leaders,
[00:32:55] Nicole Greer: I, I talk to them about my shine coaching methodology, and one of the habits is I want you to ask two questions before you give your opinion. Yeah, you know, just this little habit of being interested in what your employees have to say, being interested in the story, being interested in the process before you just come off with an opinion that's not fully informed, you know?
[00:33:14] Nicole Greer: So I think that's really huge. And then you also go on to talk about dialogue. Which is a whole nother podcast, but just doing the art of dialogue I think is so important.
[00:33:24] Nicole Greer: And you have a different author in here? I already ordered the book, but
[00:33:27] Nicole Greer: I, you know, I got the information from name,
[00:33:31] Nicole Greer: yeah,
[00:33:31] Nicole Greer: yeah.
[00:33:32] Nicole Greer: That I worked underneath. He was a master coach and he taught me dialogue. It changed my thinking and he used to say you know, imagine the power of all of everyone's genius at work.
[00:33:44] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:33:45] Justin Jones-Fosu: That's good.
[00:33:45] Nicole Greer: You know, it sounds fluffy, but it's like, no, no, no. Imagine
[00:33:49] Justin Jones-Fosu: yeah.
[00:33:49] Nicole Greer: If everybody's brain was harnessed because we were curious about what they knew or what they experienced or where they've been, I think it's so good.
[00:33:57] Nicole Greer: All right. So another one in here that you have is, a person with an inclusive mindset intentionally engages others who look, think, and behave differently. While someone with an exclusion mindset either leaves all their interactions to chance, which I thought was interesting, or only engages with those who look, think, and believe similarly.
[00:34:16] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, that's so powerful for me. And it's one of the, again, the principles that I learned from my mom. And
[00:34:23] Nicole Greer: so what's your mom's name?
[00:34:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: I realized her name is Valerie Jones Williams. She's
[00:34:28] Justin Jones-Fosu: an amazing.
[00:34:28] Justin Jones-Fosu: soul
[00:34:28] Nicole Greer: Oh my god. Valerie Jones Williams. I love her.
[00:34:30] Justin Jones-Fosu: Amazing
[00:34:31] Justin Jones-Fosu: soul. And she's actually, she'll we're putting a big event on, on Friday, so she's coming on Thursday.
[00:34:36] Justin Jones-Fosu: So I'm really excited to see Mom
[00:34:37] Nicole Greer: Best grandma
[00:34:37] Nicole Greer: ever too. Do they? Is she just, yeah.
[00:34:39] Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, she's yes.
[00:34:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah,
[00:34:40] Nicole Greer: yeah, yeah.
[00:34:41] Justin Jones-Fosu: By the way,
[00:34:42] Justin Jones-Fosu: if, if your like, parents are living, so this is a quick side note. Several years ago I started asking a question. I love my birthday, right? But I started asking a question. My friends are awesome, but I was like, why am I spending my birthday with my friends?
[00:34:55] Justin Jones-Fosu: Why don't I spend it with the person who birthed me?
[00:34:58] Nicole Greer: Yeah,
[00:34:59] Nicole Greer: that's good.
[00:34:59] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so every birthday I have, and again, not everybody's person's living, so I understand that. But every birthday I have, I, I, I, I spend with her because it's my birthday and what we call her birthing day. We do kind of her living list, not the bucket, you know, but her living list, the things that she always wanted to do.
[00:35:16] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so we've been to the Grand Canyon and we have traveled to the Niagara Falls and we're gonna do like a, well, I can't tell because she may listen to it, so I can't tell what's happened this birthday. But the interesting thing is that what I learned from my mom. is that We intentionally seek out the perspective of others.
[00:35:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: We intentionally go and engage with people who think, look, and believe differently. And I realized, Nicole, I wasn't living up to my mom's ideals. I was starting to surround myself with people who looked like me, thought like me, believed like me. And so I created, again, as a strategist, I created a thing, a process that would help me.
[00:35:52] Justin Jones-Fosu: And we walked several organizations through this, but I love when individuals do this themselves. And it's called The Circles of Grace Challenge.
[00:36:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: And a
[00:36:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: Circles of Grace challenge is simply this, where every six to 12 months I've extended it. Before it was six months, but every six to 12 months I go to events, experiences, or I engage with people in either which I don't know a lot about or that I disagree with, and I go only asking two questions.
[00:36:20] Justin Jones-Fosu: What did I learn about these events, people, and experiences, and what did I learn about myself as I experienced them?
[00:36:27] Nicole Greer: That's right.
[00:36:28] Justin Jones-Fosu: And, and some of my circles of grace challenges have been so transformative where I've said like, oh, wow. Like I, I got that all wrong. Like I thought I knew, but I didn't because I spent more time asking questions.
[00:36:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: And there's some that literally have confirmed and like they are exactly how I thought they were right. But what I did receive was a first firsthand experience rather than from social media or the news or other places. And that allows us to make humanity go forward.
[00:36:56] Nicole Greer: Right. Get, get yourself some data points, people.
[00:36:58] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And what he's talking about is on page 49, you know, and so these circles I think are really good. And I, I love that you're a strategist, not just talking about it, you're giving us actual to-dos. But also a great visual. So there are several great visuals in the book too that you kind of need to, you know, get downloaded in your brain.
[00:37:17] Nicole Greer: Give Justin credit. But in the middle he says like, there's you. And then around you is like your family and friends, you know, like that's the comfort zone, right? Yeah. And then people like you and people like those you love. And then I love that outside circle is creating these meaningful relationships and getting exposed to others.
[00:37:35] Nicole Greer: I
[00:37:35] Nicole Greer: think that's really,
[00:37:36] Nicole Greer: really good.
[00:37:38] Justin Jones-Fosu: Thank you, Nicole.
[00:37:38] Nicole Greer: Yeah,
[00:37:39] Nicole Greer: yeah. Such good stuff. All right. So the other thing about inclusive mindset, it focuses on ways that we can progress in our strengths and weaknesses in matters of diversity and inclusion where someone with the exclusion mindset focuses on how to be perfect before they take action.
[00:37:55] Nicole Greer: So that's kind of a a back to the growth mindset, fixed mindset kind of thing.
[00:38:01] Justin Jones-Fosu: And if I could press pause and double, double click there. My wife says double click. I've been adopting that language. But double clicking there is, is the unintended, unintended consequence of moving into this strengths based culture is, I think people have gotten it wrong of what the initial intention of strengths-based meant.
[00:38:24] Justin Jones-Fosu: Strengths-based, never meant, don't do things that you're not currently good at. And that's where people have leaned into. It's like, I'm only gonna do the things that I'm strong in and which means that I'm excluding opportunities for growth in learning. 'cause you don't know if you're strong or not in these things.
[00:38:41] Justin Jones-Fosu: Strengths-based training and strengths-based learning was never meant to be that. So I, I, I want to be very careful because I talk about both strengths and areas that we are currently weak in and develop. Like, you know, I go to the gym almost every single day and there's been things that I've been weak at,
[00:38:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: but I've worked on them and I've gotten better. And, and so be very careful in this strengths-based culture in society. Like, you know, I know my top strengths is strategy, right? I've done, you know, all the strengths finders and all that kind of stuff, but it doesn't mean ignore the areas of potential growth.
[00:39:14] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so that's one thing I want us to consistently think of. Just don't do the things you're good at.
[00:39:18] Nicole Greer: Yeah, and I, and so, my turn to dovetail on that one. So I, I am a certified strengths finders coach and I couldn't agree more that people are confused about strengths finders. So it's like when you look at that list of all those strengths you, you know, you do want to take into consideration the value of them.
[00:39:36] Nicole Greer: And what you might do to, what I say is shore it up. It might never be your number one 'cause you can't have everything be number one. Hello? It's a list, right? But you can look at, you know, like the bottom of the list and go, Hmm. What, what might happen in my life if I shored these up? Or, or, or gave them a little attention and intention.
[00:40:02] Nicole Greer: So I'll tell you a quick story. Justin. I was working with this gal, she's an organizational development professional inside of her organization, and I was coming in to help them build a vibrant culture. And she and I have just, you know, like. Sister's from another mother, and we just have the best time together.
[00:40:16] Nicole Greer: And and so she's, she took the strengths finders and she was like, called me and she's like, I'm depressed. I'm like, what's the matter? And she said, discipline is my lowest word on here.
[00:40:28] Justin Jones-Fosu: Mm.
[00:40:28] Nicole Greer: And I was like, yeah. Now, here's the thing, I do have to remind her of things a lot of times she doesn't oftentimes write down everything she should write down.
[00:40:38] Nicole Greer: She does. Sometimes she forgets things because she's not as organized or as disciplined as she needs to be. And she's like, I really need to work on that, don't I? And I said, yeah. You know, which is what I call truth telling, honesty and candor, you know, is is it's like letting people know, no, that would really help you and it would help the rest of us.
[00:41:01] Nicole Greer: If you could just shore that up just a bit. Like, we don't expect you to figure out how to write an encyclopedia and, you know, do all the things in life, but like that does need your attention and intention, so I love that. I love what you're saying. So good. All right. Another thing you have in here is a person with an inclusive mindset doesn't compare themselves, and you've shared that just earlier.
[00:41:22] Nicole Greer: But those with an exclusion mindset generally compare themselves to those that they perceive are worst. At least I'm not as bad as him or her. Yeah. I think that one's huge. Yeah. Like letting yourself off the hook.
[00:41:36] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:41:37] Nicole Greer: Kind of thing.
[00:41:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: It's so, it's so easy. I mean, it's one of the things.
[00:41:39] Nicole Greer: Yes.
[00:41:39] Justin Jones-Fosu: I remember a while ago, I think my pastor was giving a sermon about why we love watching like these train wreck documentaries.
[00:41:49] Justin Jones-Fosu: It makes us feel good about ourself, and it was very just interesting kind of that, that concept of like, we love watching the people like, oh my gosh, I can't believe. Or the people who hoard, oh my gosh, I can't believe because it's like, at least I'm not like them. But unfortunately, I think we take that same approach to our everyday lives.
[00:42:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: It's that we, it's easy for us to say, oh, at least I'm not like them. Versus asking the question. How might I develop and grow? What's my, we, we call it in our team plus one? What's my plus one? What's that one area that I'm imperfectly, I imperfectly progressing in. And that's the opportunity. But when we take that a level of accountability self, it's harder, it's nestling into the hard, but it allows us to grow.
[00:42:35] Justin Jones-Fosu: And I, I just, I find that most people, it's, you know, I don't say most, a lot of people. Just simply like, well, you know, oh, at least, at least. And, and that's, that's the very, the most dangerous statement, and at least that's achieving our goals. Well, at least I hit my sales number last, last month. Right? Oh, this is a whole new month at least.
[00:42:55] Nicole Greer: That's
[00:42:55] Nicole Greer: right. It's a do over dude.
[00:42:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'm saying like, at least, so that's, that's the one of our most challenging statements, at least.
[00:43:04] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. And I've got a mentor, Justin, her name's Anne, and she's like late seventies, 80 pounds soaking a wet, ball of fire and and she will say, listen, don't validate, justify and rationalize everything.
[00:43:17] Nicole Greer: Take a look. I'm like, oh, hey,
[00:43:21] Justin Jones-Fosu: that's
[00:43:21] Justin Jones-Fosu: brilliant.
[00:43:22] Nicole Greer: Isn't that good? Yeah. And so she's amazing. All right. And then, you know, there's 10 here. I don't know, I'm kind of, I think I've missed a couple, but it's because Justin's illustrating them so beautifully. I think this last thing I think is really, really good.
[00:43:35] Nicole Greer: A person with an inclusive mindset looks for opportunities to invite others who are missing from the room, especially marginalized and underrepresented groups, while someone with an exclusion mindset focuses only on their self interests. So that one when I read that one, I just immediately go back to my upbringing.
[00:43:57] Nicole Greer: And if you don't get that from, you know, your amazing mama that Justin had, or my grandma Murt, you know?
[00:44:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:44:05] Nicole Greer: You know, I, I was told you go down there and you ask her to come over and play, and I'd say, I don't want her to come over and play. She says, you got you. She know I'm eight years old, I don't know nothing.
[00:44:16] Nicole Greer: And she says, you go ask her. And I'm like, okay. You know? Yeah. And like, I didn't know why she was forcing the issue, but now I know why she was kind of like, you do this, that's what you do. You invite, and one of the concepts you have in here, which is a strategy of Justin's, is welcoming people.
[00:44:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:44:34] Nicole Greer: I love that so much.
[00:44:35] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:44:36] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. I, I, I, a quick story about that, so I
[00:44:39] Nicole Greer: Yeah, please.
[00:44:39] Justin Jones-Fosu: My birthday challenge, lean, learned, leaned into, so now I do an international trek every single year. That's a part of the journey. And so one, one year I did Machu Picchu and of course after you've done the Inca Trail and backpack and camped out in tents and done, you know, I don't know how many, you know, tens and tens of miles that you want to go to the gym the next day.
[00:45:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so I did. So I'm in Lima, Peru, and I come out of the gym. It's a Sunday and closed early, and I'm leaving. I'm getting ready to go back to the Airbnb and I notice there's this this, this circle of young people who are listening to music and dancing. I'm just so captivated because I'm loving the music.
[00:45:18] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'm like, oh, this is awesome and amazing. I'm like, this is great. And so I'm tapping my head and tapping in my shoulders and da da da. And I wanted to join a circle, right? But then I started to have these moments of doubt. I started saying, but oh, I'm different than them. I'm What if they don't speak the same language I do?
[00:45:42] Justin Jones-Fosu: Like I'm from a different country. I'm I'm much older. And then the big question came, Nicole, I was like, what if they don't like my dancing? And so all these moments,
[00:45:54] Nicole Greer: I'm trying really hard. My moves here,
[00:45:57] Justin Jones-Fosu: all these moments of doubt. I'm getting ready to walk back to the Airbnb. This gentleman comes out one of the best dancers that was in this circle.
[00:46:05] Justin Jones-Fosu: I mean, I'm fascinated. This guy was amazing, but I later found out his name was Pantera And Pantera came out and he was like, Hey, hey man. Right when I was getting ready to leave. He's like, Hey. He's like, where are you from? I was like, United States. He is like, you know, what's your name? I'm like, Justin. He was like, like Justin, if you, if you want to join the circle, you, you can join the circle.
[00:46:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: And he's like, if you want to dance, you can dance. And, you know, I tried to play it off. I was like, I've just been waiting for the right song. Right. But all the while I was dealing with these you moments of doubt. And, and, and, and so I joined the circle, right? And as I'm joining the circle and I'm just having fun and seeing people, you know, having great time and all these things.
[00:46:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: And I decided to jump in, right? And the right song came on and I was doing all my stuff and boy, doing my Michael Jackson, blah, blah, blah. Right? And I'm doing, you know, I'm, and I'm having a great time ah, ah, right. And all these things. You, you, you can find it online. The interesting thing is that when I got done, everybody was like, oh yeah.
[00:47:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: And you know, person gave me, gave me a high five and all these kind of things. One guy even tried to imitate me, right? All these kind of things and what I learned in that moment because I didn't know that there were videotaping me, right? And I, and it wasn't until I got back home and I saw it on Instagram, and as I was watching this Nicole, almost getting goosebumps talking about it, I realized that that was a perfect moment of inclusion.
[00:47:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: Pantera Pantera He left the circle where he was one of the best dancers and he came out to me, this guy, he didn't even know if I could dance, but he just noticed me observing from the outside. And he asked me about me, where are you from? What's your name? And he said, he welcomed me into the circle. He said, if you want to join the circle, you can join it.
[00:47:46] Justin Jones-Fosu: And then Nicole, he invited me to dance. He's like, if you want to dance, you can dance. But here's the kicker. When I got done and they clapped, right? None of them may ever dance like me, but that was a moment of belonging because I felt like I could dance the way I freely wanted to dance, and they still embraced me.
[00:48:09] Nicole Greer: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:09] Justin Jones-Fosu: Here's where that is important for us is where are we the best dancers in our circles? That we need to like Pantera leave the circles, go and hear and ask people about them. Welcome them into the circle, invite them to the table, the event, the golf outing, the other thing that you go to, and encourage them to show up.
[00:48:32] Justin Jones-Fosu: Not to assimilate to who you are, but to dance in the way that they dance. That's what I learned about not just being welcoming, but also inviting and creating cultures of belonging. And that's all thanks to Pantera
[00:48:48] Nicole Greer: So good, so good. Yeah. And and so you, you've got a whole chapter on welcoming and inviting.
[00:48:54] Nicole Greer: And I, I'll just, maybe this might be a good place to, to kind of, you know, we, we only got halfway through this thing. So inviting behaviors, you know, here are a few things that you can do. You can smile at people you can hold the door open. When in a meeting you can ask them somebody who's quiet what are your thoughts?
[00:49:14] Nicole Greer: And see if they have some value to add. And when people ask me to join ask them to join you for lunch. Ask them to be part of an important assignment, and then while sitting by yourself inviting people into the group. You know, so again, I just, I've just got my grandma MERT in my head the whole time.
[00:49:29] Nicole Greer: I see that whole list, you know, and, and you know, and dare I say this, but it's kind of like, you know, like that's what I was told is good manners. That's it. The mannerisms that create the inclusion that we're after, right? You know, it's thinking about somebody other than yourself. Pulling people in, making sure they're heard, they're seen, they're valued.
[00:49:46] Nicole Greer: I think it's so, so good. Now I'd love for you to leave everybody with one nugget before we go, and I think this is huge. You say on page 67, it's really good to be invitable Yeah. This is like a trait. Yeah, like a new character trait for me that I'm gonna put on my list because, you know, I I, I try to teach character everywhere I go.
[00:50:08] Nicole Greer: It's like, how do you, how could I be invitable Right? Yeah. So it's one thing to invite somebody in, but then you gotta be the kind guy or gal, you know, that I want to invite in. Like, if I think it's gonna be trouble, why would I invite? So it's, it's a two-way street.
[00:50:26] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. And that's one of the things that we had to uncover because we started again, more and more you get into the, the conversation and the research.
[00:50:34] Justin Jones-Fosu: People, we'd have conversations with people and they would say, Justin, I've been inviting people, but they always turn me down. I've been doing some of these things I've offered to mentor and they didn't want to be mentored by like all of these things. Or I invited them to the happy hour over and over again, but they were like, oh, I just want to go home.
[00:50:50] Justin Jones-Fosu: Right? So, and again, we don't always have to go to everything that everybody has and all these kind of things, but we have to be ask the question, how am I invitable to others? Am I the person that's also smiling back? Am I the person that's saying hi to people? I mean, I had to even, so, you know, again, I'm, I'm a story person.
[00:51:07] Justin Jones-Fosu: I learned a lot about this, so I, I built, you know, built a new home, right? And I was one of the first 20 homes. And what I didn't realize is that in my community, it's about 95% Indian. 95%. Right? And I was hemming and hawing like, well,
[00:51:22] Nicole Greer: You're gonna have some good curry at the cookout
[00:51:24] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, possibly, right? Possibly right?
[00:51:27] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes, yes. And so the interesting thing is just I was like, I was distraught initially because I was just, I wanted more racial diversity. I wanted more ethnic diversity. I didn't want it to be, I felt dishomogenous towards Indians right? And so I'd be walking and I'd be walking my dog or just walking, and they'd be playing volleyballs.
[00:51:45] Justin Jones-Fosu: It was my building and. And they were like, Hey, do you want to play? I was like, no, no, no. I'm walking right now. So I kept realizing, and I was like, Justin, you're not invitable They, they've been inviting you over and over again, and you keep on, no, I have something else to do. No, I'm running. No, I'm walking. And so one day I'm walking with my son, we're walking our dog.
[00:52:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: And it clicked in me. I, I said, the next time that they invite me, I'm gonna join. And because I still felt like an outsider in my own community, right. And I was like, and so they, they did it or no? No, they didn't even do it. I noticed it was like four against five. And as was watching, I was like, oh. I was like, Hey, y'all need another one?
[00:52:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: They're like, yeah, come on. Right. So I gave, you know, my dog to my son. I was like, all right, walk, walk the dog back home. And I went and played. That was the beginning. While playing volleyball with them, I learned their names, I learned some of their stories and then, and then every day at the same time, at least while we could, right?
[00:52:43] Justin Jones-Fosu: We were playing volleyball together and it grew because I shifted from being so busy to being a person that could belong. And that's our opportunity. So maybe don't turn down every happy hour. May again, even if you don't drink, you can go and like, I don't drink right now and I'll go and have, you know, a sparkling water with a lime and I'll still go and have conversation.
[00:53:09] Justin Jones-Fosu: Maybe don't turn down every golf, golf opportunity. Maybe don't turn down when a person invites you to an event or something like that. Or again, you don't have to go to everything. I'm not saying that right. My introvert, my introvert's like, no. Right, but I am asking you to consider, to consider how you might
[00:53:29] Justin Jones-Fosu: say yes to some things to be more invitable
[00:53:34] Nicole Greer: Mm. So good. So good. Yeah. And how's your volleyball game? See, there's no outside game.
[00:53:39] Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, I've,
[00:53:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: I've always been good. So, yeah. I mean, I've been good since little, so Yeah. I have, I've like trophies at my mom's house. Don't, yeah. Don't question my volleyball game. Oh.
[00:53:47] Justin Jones-Fosu: And,
[00:53:48] Nicole Greer: and the people, the people that had the four and went to five Got you. They were like,
[00:53:55] Nicole Greer: I,
[00:53:55] Nicole Greer: I,
[00:53:56] Nicole Greer: I'm the server, the court.
[00:53:57] Justin Jones-Fosu: Nicole, I'm the server that jumps up, that runs and jumps up and hits the ball. Like that's, that's my serving style. I don't just. Boop. No, no, no. I'm running and hitting it overhand like, wow.
[00:54:07] Nicole Greer: That is so fantastic. I love it. All right, everybody, it's been another fantastic, vibrant episode of the Build A Vibrant Culture Podcast and look, get, go get this book if you're on the YouTube, the Inclusive mindset how to cultivate diversity in your everyday life with my, hopefully I get to call you, not an acquaintance, but my good friend,
[00:54:27] Nicole Greer: justin Jones-Fosu and he is got another book out. Maybe he'll send me maybe he'll send me a copy of that and we'll talk about how to dis how, what is it? How to disagree.
[00:54:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: It's called, I Respectfully Disagree, how to have Difficult Conversations in a Divided World.
[00:54:43] Nicole Greer: Oh, doesn't that sound juicy everybody?
[00:54:45] Nicole Greer: All right. If it sounds juicy and you want to hear more about it, go down in the comments. It takes one hot second. Leave a little love note for Justin and then we'll show the love notes to Justin and we'll we'll see if we can get him back here on the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast. That would be fantastic in my life.
[00:55:01] Nicole Greer: Justin, it's been so good to be with you. I'm so grateful for your time and energy. It was so great to see you at Influence. Back in, gosh, was that August in July? No, it was July. July. It was in July. Yeah. And you should see he has a beautiful wife and kiddos. So cute. Yeah. All right. Well, good to be with you.
[00:55:18] Nicole Greer: I hope to see you at the next NSA event and and don't be a stranger. I'll talk to you guys later.
[00:55:23] Nicole Greer: thanks for
[00:55:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: Thanks, Nicole. Bye.
[00:55:28] Nicole Greer: tuning in
[00:55:31] Justin Jones-Fosu: bye. Vibrant Culture