Jay Kim - Why Do We Feel So Discontent, Fragile, And Foolish In The Digital Age?

Show Notes

Jay Kim - Why Do We Feel So Discontent, Fragile, And Foolish In The Digital Age? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Hey, Why God Why family. This is Peter Englert, one of the co-hosts of the show. Unfortunately, on this episode, we had technical difficulties with our audio, but our guest's audio was really, really good. And we felt that the content of this episode was so good that we wanted to keep it as is. So, as you listen, we appreciate your patience and your kindness and we hope that this episode helps you respond to a question that you might not feel comfortable asking in church.

Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why Podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I'm one of the co-hosts here. We are part of the Lumivoz network of podcasts. We exist to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church. I'm here with our illustrious co-host, Aaron Mercer and our fantastic producer, Nathan Yoder. We have a great episode. Before I get started, I want to make sure you know, we're working with InterVarsity Press. So our guest today is Jay Kim and he has a new book that actually comes out the day of this recording about analog Christianity. And so if you use the code WHYGOD you get 30% off. But he's asking the big question why do we feel so discontent, fragile and foolish in the digital age? I don't know. That sounds like a pretty loaded question, Aaron.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah. No, I'm really looking forward to this podcast. Thanks for being on here with us. What a great question. And one I think a lot of people are asking in this day and age. So many digital tools, so many digital possibilities and yeah, obviously there's a lot of discontent out there and this is going to be great to talk about.
I'm really excited to talk more. Obviously wisdom from your book Analog Church, as well as the one that's coming out when this podcast is coming out, Analog Christian. And yeah, no, I think this is great. I should say that we are recording this thing actually in early June and I found out right before this podcast that we're on opposite sides of the NBA Finals here.

Jay Kim: That's right.

Aaron Mercer: We're going to try not to let the Celtics, Warriors thing get in the way of our conversation.

Jay Kim: Yes.

Aaron Mercer: And by the time this podcast comes out, we're going to know. One of us is going to be sad [inaudible] be happy. What are you going to do?

Jay Kim: That's right. Love your enemies. Love your enemies.

Aaron Mercer: That's right. There you go. There you go. Okay. Thanks so much for being on the podcast with us and would love to just maybe as introduction to this conversation, just hear a little bit about your story, your faith journey and how you got to the church you're at now and also maybe start to tease out how that got you to want to write about this important subject.

Jay Kim: Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you guys so much for spending some time and letting me chat with you all and everybody listening. Really honored to be on and love the work you guys are doing. Yeah. I mean, my story ... I'll try to keep it brief and not too boring. I live and serve in the Silicon Valley of California. The tech mecca of the world. And I've been here basically my whole life. I wasn't born here. I was actually born in South Korea to Korean parents obviously. My parents separated when I was really young for a variety of reasons. And then my mother had ... Her sister lived out here in Silicon Valley, in San Jose specifically. So we came out here when I was young. Really young. Before I can remember. And I never left. I've been here basically my whole life.
Left for short little seasons here and there, but essentially have been here my whole life and have served as a pastor in the local church for basically about 20 years now. So within that 20 years have served in a variety of pastoral roles across four different churches in 20 years. Started out as a student ministries pastor and a college ministry pastor. Had a season of church planting and then was a teaching pastor at the church where I am on staff now. And very recently transitioned into the lead pastor role here at this church.
And all of those churches and all of my local church context has been, again, right here in the Silicon Valley. And much of my more public work, the books and some other things I've done, that lives quite a bit at the intersection between our ecclesiology and our discipleship to Jesus and the digital age. Yeah. A lot of it is informed by my geography and my own personal history and the current reality of my life, which is that most of my family work in tech. A significant percentage of our congregation here at our church works in tech. I'm sitting in my office now. I could drive to the big giant Apple spaceship, their big office, the new office they built a couple of years ago. I could drive to that office in about seven minutes. And Google is about 15 minutes up the road and Facebook, a short drive after that.
So we really are in the epicenter of it. Yeah, that's informed quite a bit of my work. Some of my own wrestling intention with what our digital technologies, what are they doing to us? Not just, what are they doing for us? That question is pretty easy to answer. But more difficult, but I think more important question is what are they doing to us and how are they forming us? So, yeah, that's been a lot of my journey in the last several years and yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Peter Englert: I just want to jump early on because I've had a couple people say this and I think this will help frame our conversation. We're in Rochester, New York, you're in Silicon Valley. And I feel like outside of Silicon Valley there's this idea that we have all these tech entrepreneurs that the way that ... I don't want to be crass. But the way that they make money is technology, but the way that they practice at home is there's nothing digital, there's no inventions. Even at the schools, there's no laptops. But you felt the need to write Analog Church and Analog Christianity. So give us your real perspective on a daily basis, how technology might be the same or different in Silicon Valley as you serve and minister in that area.

Jay Kim: That's a great question, Peter. Yeah. I think some of it derives from that anecdotal story, but it is a true story that Steve Jobs was militant about his own children not using Apple products until they were adults. We know it's a true story because he told the story. He confirmed it. And so I think that sort of anecdotal story has taken on a life of its own. However, also anecdotally, I would also say in my own experience with people, it's far more common than you would think that the men and women who create the digital technologies that are so ubiquitous in our lives, they are quite mindful of in particular their addictive properties. And a part of it is because they understand it. They make it, they create it. Even on the business marketing side. It is mind blowing how some of these big tech companies, some of the research they do into spheres of even neurology.
This isn't anything new. It's been written about at length now by people like Tristan Harris and Jaron Lanier. Secular writers who have done a lot of work in this area. The famous study is that there have been ... And it's a true one. It's real. There have been brain scans done where people who are addicted to their digital devices, smartphones in particular, they've done brain scans where as the person is using their digital device, the same exact sort of neurological lights flare in their brain as when a cocaine addict does a line of cocaine or is about to do a line of cocaine.
I don't say that to be alarmist or to scare anybody. I say it primarily to say, one, it has been proven that our digital devices have inherently built within them a particular addictive property and that the men and women who create these technologies because of their deep awareness of those addictive properties, they are wary of how much they allow, especially children and even teenagers to use some of these things. And I think again, not to be alarmist, but that should say something to us. That these are not just neutral bits and pieces of technology that we place into the hands of young people especially.
In the next book, Analog Christian, I open with the story of this advertising campaign that cigarette companies, Camel cigarettes in particular in the 1940s used where it was called more doctors. And they had these ads where they would have doctors ... And I'm using air quotes here. These doctors smoking these cigarettes and it would say more doctors recommend Camel cigarettes. And the whole concept was that smoking cigarettes actually might be healthy for you. And we look at advertisements like that today in the 2020s and we just think how laughable that is. And I do wonder sometimes if we're going to look back 40 years from now and think about how easily and casually we placed smartphones in the hands of 12 year olds, and just ask ourselves how in the world? What in the world were we thinking? How in the world did we do that?
Because I do think there are some inherent dangers into the technology. So again, back to the original question. I think the people who make the technology are more deeply aware of those qualities. So I do think even in my experience as a pastor here in Silicon Valley, yeah, the people who are most deeply connected into the development of these technologies, they do live with a deep awareness and a caution in terms of how much they themselves, and then in particular younger generations that they have a relationship with, their own children or grandchildren, they are quite wary and cautious about how much they allow, which is really fascinating and illuminating I think.

Aaron Mercer: So let me just dig in there. I think this could be an interesting way for our conversation to go. I'm sure we'll touch on a lot of points, but are there certain ... As you're talking and you're and you're talking about the people in your church, I'm curious what technologies they might be most concerned about. Sometimes I wonder are there things that are in Silicon Valley are commonplace that we might think are maybe not cutting edge, but things that we're still trying to figure out how to use. Is there something that you are more concerned about than others? You can be talking about texting or using Google AdWords or things like that on the one hand or Facebook or-

Peter Englert: Just don't say podcasting. Okay. Just don't that.

Aaron Mercer: Peter, doesn't want you to say the podcasts are harmful. Right. But I mean, then you could start getting into other technologies like artificial intelligence or other sorts of visual things, or even ... I mean, you could even get into gaming and avatars and things like that too. So what are the things that are most concerning? When you talk about people are concerned about it, what are the sorts of things people are concerned with?

Jay Kim: That's a great question. I mean, I think it's across the board. It's easy to use the word technology or digital technology, but you just rattled off several different expressions of digital technology that all within themselves have their own unique dynamic. And in particular, their own unique formation dynamic. So watching YouTube videos and texting are in some ways similar, but they're actually very different sorts of experiences. So I think the concern or the caution I see at least in the people that I serve and my friends and family, it's not so much, at least at this point because I think we're still fairly early on in this journey, it's not so much sort of like YouTube is okay, but social media, Instagram is bad or TikTok is evil so just watch Netflix. It's not so much of that. There isn't as much of that sort of differentiation.
I think the tone and the tenor of the conversation at least at this point seems to be much more in general, what does a primarily digitally mediated life, what is that doing to us as embodied humans? I think at this point that's also my highest interest. And again, I said earlier that there is a sort of inherent danger built into some of these technologies, but I have to parse that out a little bit more. I don't think the tools themselves are inherently evil. I think typically most tools are amoral. They don't necessarily have an inherent morality. Although one could argue that there is a lot of conversation about design ethics. Tristan Harris. Many people know that name because he helped produce that Netflix documentary, The Social Dilemma. But he's been writing about this for many years. Tristan Harris was actually a design ethicist at Google and he left because he says publicly, he realized it was just a PR move. Google wasn't really interested in implementing ethics into their design because it hurt the bottom line.
So now he's fighting for ethics in design. So you can argue that there is some sort of latent inherent immortality maybe, but what I mean is that generally speaking, if we can leverage whatever tools, digital tools in particular, with enough discipline, we have it within ourselves to a certain extent, we have it within ourselves to make sure that the digital technologies are being used by us and that they're not using us. But I think so often the danger is that because we don't see these technologies for what they really are or what they really can be in terms of their formational or deformational effect on us as humans, they end up using us. That's Tristan Harris's whole argument. He has this famous line, "Everyone thinks social media is free, but nothing is free. If it is free, then you are the product." And that's true when it comes to social media.
So I think that's generally the concern is that all of these technologies in their various forms and in their unique ways are using us rather than being used by us responsibly. And that they're deforming us from experiencing life as whole, full, healthy embodied human beings. And of course, for me as a pastor and as a follower of Jesus primarily my greatest concern is about formation into Christ likeness. So the question I'm trying to ask is as digital technologies and are irresponsible, maybe even dangerous misuse of these technologies and in turn their use of us and their deformational effect on us, how is it then deforming us from the journey of being formed into Christ's likeness? I think that's really one of the key issues, if not the key issue to address when it comes to digital technologies, particularly for followers of Jesus in the digital age.

Peter Englert: I want to come back to the episode question because one of my favorite things to do with guests is to sit down with them and say, "Hey, if you could put your topic in a why question, how would you do it?" And immediately you were like, why do we feel so discontent, fragile and foolish? It came off the tip of your tongue like that. So maybe I'm wrong about this. I have a feeling that you didn't necessarily go looking for writing two books about Analog Church and Analog Christianity. It found you in a very God sovereign way. You might have rather done a book about Ecclesiastes or something else. But help our listeners understand whether it's two moments or one moment what was the moment or the season that you said somebody really needs to be engaging this topic? Because I don't hear you say run from technology and I don't hear you say fully embrace it. But you're saying, hey, we're becoming discontent, fragile and foolish and it seems like the digital age is helping us understand it. What was that one moment that you can point to and say, I need to respond to this?

Jay Kim: Yeah, there was one moment. I tell the story in Analog Church. When my son was ... He had just been born. He's almost four now so this is almost four years ago. My son was a newborn. My daughter was three. And they were playing in this little ... We had an open floor plan. And so they were playing in this room and I was in the kitchen, but I could see them. And they were both laying down on the floor and my daughter, my then three year old daughter leans over and begins hugging and kissing her little newborn brother. So I pulled out my cell phone and I'd snap a photo because it's one of those moments you just got to snap a photo. And then immediately my mind went to, I got to post this on Instagram and Facebook, because this is going to be a winner. I'm going to get so many likes or whatever. That's where my mind went.
So I'm editing the photo, getting the right filter, all those things. And I'm doing all that, I'm just immersed in that process. And then I feel this tug on my leg and I look past the digital image of my daughter to see my actual real life daughter. And looking up with sadness in her eyes, she says to me, "No more email daddy. No more email." And what it told me was that she had seen her dad be physically present but absent in every other way so many times already in her three years of life and most of the time flipping through email that she just assumed it was happening again. And it just broke my heart. And I put my phone down and hugged her, apologized and we started playing with her little brother.
But that got me thinking. It was a real wake up moment for me where I realized this is a problem. This is not a hypothetical problem. It's not something for me to preach about. This is an actual problem deforming who I am as a father and as a husband and just as a human and as a follower of Jesus. So I just started doing a lot of reading actually. Not Christian writers. I just started reading other writers. Secular writers who'd been addressing the issue of technology and how it's shaping us. People like Gene Twenge and Adam Alter, Nicholas Carr, Jaron Lanier, Tristan Harris. Yeah. The list goes on and on. Some older folks, Marshall McCluhan and Neil Postman, people like that.
And it started to open my mind. These people started giving me language and concepts to be able to identify and name what was happening in me in terms of my addictions. So then as a pastor and as a follower of Jesus, I started asking that question pertaining to the church. Well, if digital technologies are affecting me in this way, they must be affecting others and they might be affecting our ecclesiology and our understanding of what it means to be the church and that's where Analog Church came from. And then as I continued thinking about that idea, the reality is this book that's just coming out now, Analog Christian, was actually the first book that I was going to write and the publisher suggested we flip flop it around and I think that was the right move. But this book, Analog Christian, is way more personal.
This is the stuff that I've been wrestling with now for six, maybe seven years. And in earnest for at least the last four or five years. And a lot of that is driven by ... It's very personal. It's just my own sense of discontentment and fragility and foolishness. And a part of that obviously is just sin nature in me. I'm a fallen, broken sinful human. But what I've realized is much of it has been hyper accelerated by what the digital age and my digital online social media proclivities have done. That they have accelerated me on this journey down the path of discontentment, fragility and foolishness.
I have just found myself, in connection to my usage or social media's usage of me, I have found myself growing increasingly discontent and fragile and foolish in a lot of ways when I'm really honest with myself. And I think many people, if not most people can relate to that when they just take a deep breath and consider their lives. So I just felt like we had to talk about it. And not just talk about it but I found that scripture and Paul's words in his letter to the Galatians in particular, had a lot to say about it when we began unpacking it. So that's really where it came from.

Peter Englert: Real quick, you said something that I actually would want more context. Why do you think it was important to write Analog Church before Analog Christian?

Jay Kim: Yeah, that's a great question. In hindsight, it feels like it was divine providence. I don't like to over spiritualize things but it's pretty hard for me to get around it. It feels like it was divine providence. Initially the decision was just the publisher ... I had never written a book before and the publisher thought, "Analog Church is much more of a niche book. It's focused very specifically on church leaders and pastors. And we feel like if you can give them something that's valuable, that'll help you then have a little bit of credibility with church leaders to be able to write to broader audiences from there." So it was mostly just a strategic move. But in hindsight, Analog Church ... The book writing process is years long. So I signed the book deal two years before the book came out.
The last word of the book was written a year before the book came out. But the release date for Analog Church had been set a year in advance. It had been set to March 31st, 2020. And we had no idea that a pandemic would shut down everything. So two weeks before the release of the book, a book in which I argue that embodied presence as the local church really matters in the digital age, embodied presence as the local church no longer was possible. So we actually had conversations like, should we even release it right now? Should we delay? But we decided to release the book when we did. And so yeah, Peter, in a lot of ways, it just feels like it was divine providence in that way. Because if there was anything I would've wanted to say in the midst of the pandemic, it would've been what's in that book. So yeah.

Aaron Mercer: That's so interesting. Thank you for relaying all that. I'm curious. I have several questions, Peter, that are in my head. I want to ask them all. Just maybe jumping off of your Analog Church element of it first. You were reaching out to church leaders and people who were trying to figure out how to navigate speaking to people in the midst of when there's so much digital change that's happening. I mean really every day there's new things that are happening. One of the things that people are talking about now, of course, the metaverse is a big thing or the virtual reality or augmented reality. You live in Silicon Valley so you could probably tell us what's coming that your parishioners are talking about that is going to come next that the rest of us haven't seen yet.
Should churches or ministries or really anyone who wants to have outreach, should they be trying to engage? Should they be buying a property in the metaverse to engage on? I know that's a new hard thing to understand, but is that something people should be looking at, or should people be looking into using augmented reality or whatnot for church services? Or on the flip side, would you see that as something that's adding to a problem that we don't want to get into? What are your thoughts on that?

Jay Kim: Yeah. It's a great question. I think we're pretty early in the conversation so I don't want to jump the gun here. I think I'm still learning. But at least where I stand now, what I would say is ... I suggest this in Analog Church. I'm not a Luddite. Some people assume that I am. That my argument is throw away all digital technologies and live on a farm and churn your own butter and raise cattle or something. If that's what you're called to do, that's wonderful, but that's not me. I'm not arguing for the elimination of digital technologies. I'm only suggesting that we be thoughtful and careful in some ways about what position of power and authority we give these technologies in our lives. And also to live aware that if we are not intentional about placing these technologies in their appropriate place, they will take the place of their choosing.
That's the way the business is designed. And you see that all the time. You see it when you go to a coffee shop or a family dinner, and everybody's sitting two feet from each other, but immersed in their phones. They're sitting physically close, but couldn't be further apart in every other way. Well, that's because the technology has a hold of you. We are worshiping at the altar of the technology rather than experiencing the fullness of life when we gather with embodied humans.
So when it comes to the metaverse, again, I think we're really early, but I guess the first thing I would say is be mindful of what position of power and authority you give the medium. The other thing I would say ... And this is something I say again in Analog Church. I think that digital is fantastic for informing one another, but transformation ... Not information, but transformation I believe happens most deeply and most effectively in analog, in embodied ways. When you actually show up and do the work.
And if that is true .... And I would suggest that is true. So an example of that would be, if I want to transform my body, my actual physical body, I can watch all the workout videos I want to, I can get all the information and actually know all the information about how to do every single workout there is to do. But if I don't physically in an embodied way do the exercises, go to the gym, run, whatever it might be, I'll be informed, but I'll never transform. And so it is with a soul and a life. So if that is true then what I would say is that the metaverse is fantastic for information.
So I think if we give it ... The metaverse as well as other digital technologies. If we give it that sort of position in our lives, say this is a great place for me to go to be informed, to have access to information in a really dynamic, engaging way, great. But if the expectation is that the metaverse will transform your life, I have a hard time believing that at this point. Because at the end of the day, you're going to put the headset down and find yourself just sitting in the same old basement with the same old life. And maybe emotionally and even I would admit even socially you might feel a sense of connection. What I'm not saying is that digital connections are not real connections. They are. They really are. It's akin to having a pen pal before the internet. We would write these letters to one another.
Although I would also argue that a pen to paper, writing a letter like that is a much more analog experience than a digital one. So I would make that argument. And not to rabbit trail too much. So an example would be, if I wrote my wife a Valentine's email, that's a very different experience than if I give her a Valentine's day card. And it's hard to quantify why, because the words are the same. But most people listening to this podcast would tell me, "Hey dude, just husband advice, probably don't write the Valentine's email, probably a better call to get the card." We just know it. The experience is different. Sort of analog hand to pen, to paper sort of thing.
So we just have to be mindful. The metaverse is digital. The metaverse is digital and that means it has particular limitations. But those limitations are not pertaining to information. I think it's a great place to be informed and to a certain extent in a limited way to connect socially. But if we want transformation and if we want deep, meaningful connection in the most human way possible, I still think analog embodied presence is the way to get there.

Aaron Mercer: Let's do a quick follow up here. I framed that question as in, what would you advise to some of the leaders that are ministry leaders or whatnot, but maybe even talking to an individual, what are some things that you would be ... Again, and I totally get not against the use of technology at all. It's like you said, often an amoral thing. But to use it in the right way or to use it cautiously, what are some things that you would recommend to an individual who might be listening to this podcast to be wary of? And let me put it another way too. What's something that you have seen as maybe the most corrosive, the most disembodied and like you said, what is something that you're aware ... Is it the like button on Facebook? Is it the scroll? Is it keywords? Hashtags? What is something that you're most wary of for individuals when they're en engaged in technology?

Jay Kim: Yeah, that's a great question, Aaron. I hesitate to say most anything because I think that it's all of those things you just named, I would say, yes, they are corrosive. And I say that with no hesitation. I say it in full confidence. I think there is enough research and data. In fact former engineers, high end senior engineers, including the person who designed the like button have been on record as saying that was one of the most dangerous things we've done and the results have been catastrophic. I'm paraphrasing but essentially that's been said. Because this is not about just technology. It's about human psychology and social structures. And it's really about feeding the deepest, darkest, most insecure parts of our souls. Again, there's a lot of data and research to show this. I mean, it's highly addictive. The desire for likes and retweets and all of that. It's just really dangerous.
There's a lot of literature about this that people can look up. I cite some of it in both books. But yeah, so I hesitate to say any one thing is the most dangerous. I think maybe a better way to say it would be on the flip side of that. One of the paths to recognizing maybe what components of digital technology are most dangerous to you is to digitally fast for a while and to deeply consider what it is about the fast that makes it most difficult. What do you miss the most? Do you miss the likes the most? When I used to post these pictures, I used to get 120 likes and I don't have that because I'm not posting pictures.
It's impossible to really know and diagnose yourself until you fast. It's almost like before you go in for surgery, sometimes they tell you to fast. You have to empty out your system for them to be able to go in and get out the thing they need to get out. And so I think it's very similar to that. I'm borrowing from Andy Crouch who is a brilliant thinker, writer and a friend who I admire and respect quite a bit. He suggests these different versions of digital fasts.
So he suggests one hour a day, one day a week, and then one week a year, if you can. So try to fast every day from all digital technology at least one hour a day. And that might be during dinner. You have a long dinner with your family or your friends for an hour and literally all digital technologies are off limits. And maybe one day a week. Can you take a Saturday? And that sounds intense for a lot of us, which reveals the level and depth of our addictions. But is it possible that you can take an entire day of your week and just literally not touch any digital devices? And then this is the most extreme. Can you do a one week fast in any given year where for an entire week you're offline essentially completely? No email, no social media. Use a phone for literally making phone calls if you need to, but nothing else. No texting. And I've done some of that. I've never done a week in a year, although I'd like to eventually. But I have done and do regularly the one hour a day and fairly regularly the one day a week. Typically, Saturdays with my family. And early on I realized it ... Yeah, it happens pretty naturally. You realize the things you miss most.
So what was diagnosed in me through that process is that the most dangerous addictions ... And I'm addicted or was addicted to so much about digital technology. But what I discovered about myself that I didn't know, I was most addicted to email, interestingly enough. Not social media as much. But the incessant need to check my email, which was connected to all sorts of other inner work stuff in me. My incessant need to be needed. My deep, unhealthy desire and hunger for significance in the eyes of the world. And again, that's formational. That's formational. So I was feeding that need in unhealthy ways, which was forming me, deforming me and reforming me in dangerous ways. So diagnosing it and recognizing it has been step one in the path toward healing and wholeness and being reformed into the image of Christ.

Peter Englert: I love the direction that Aaron's question. It actually fits really well. So we're talking about being discontent, fragile and foolish. My grandpa and grandma Englert in the 1960s ... I'm not sure which was which, but one was a registered Republican and the other was a registered Democrat and their philosophy was we are going to be registered this way because we'll get the information on both the candidates, which will allow us to make a decision. Which, it's very fascinating for me to think about that right now, because you could post an article from pick the opposite side of the aisle and people are like, do you know that ... Without even reading the content. And as we think about being discontent, fragile and foolish, how do we as individuals overcome ... There's almost this legalism that if you're on this side of the issue, you can't spend time with this person. And we're actually not having the necessary conversations that are really messy.
It's like, I'd love to have a conversation, but you have to come to my side a little bit to this. I mean, I'm sure you're probably going to cover that in Analog Christian, but how can we do better digitally, but even more importantly, in person in a world where there would probably be no couple that say I registered this way. I registered that way.

Jay Kim: Yeah. That's a great question. There's this fantastic book that came out a year or two ago called Hate Inc. by a journalist named Matt Taibbi. And he basically talks about media in general and specifically news and social media in the digital age. I'm paraphrasing him but the whole book is about the concept that media in general and social and online and news media specifically, it runs on the fuel of antagonism and hatred. So again, going back to that Tristan Harris quote about if something is free, you're the product. In the digital age the incredible polarization and division we feel, it's because we are the product being sold to and from one another amongst news media. So in a weird way people think, well, Fox News and CNN they're rivals and they hate each other. And the reality is, in some ways you can argue that's true, that they're competitive. But in other ways, and I would suggest in more accurate ways, they're actually in cahoots. It's not necessarily CNN and Fox News. It's not even necessarily progressive and liberal with a big VS in the middle against one another.
It's really humans and embodied relationships versus news, social online media narratives. And I think awareness is one of those things. Again, not to repeat myself, but this is where a digital fast or a news fast or a media fast is really helpful. My wife, for example, used to be on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and actually several years ago deleted everything. So you cannot find her on social media at all. And she is a different human being. And she talks about just how much better she feels.
And I have never met a person ... I have several friends, I mean, dozens of friends who've taken that step. Just deleted all of their social media. Every single one of them, 100% of them say how much better they feel without it. And you would think that there would be a lot of loss and longing and, "Oh gosh, I don't know what my friends are up to. I don't see them on Instagram or Facebook anymore." There is very little of that. There's a little bit every now and then. It's like, "Oh, I didn't know so and so had a baby." But what you quickly realize is that with the people with whom your real life relationship dictates that you probably should know that they had a baby, those relationships are mediated in real embodied ways anyways, that basically what you're missing is mostly the friend you had in high school that you haven't seen in seven years. They had a baby and you didn't know. There isn't a here's my dear friend and because I don't have Facebook, I had no idea she got married. That never happens.
You realize that there was a whole world before the internet and human beings were able to mediate meaningful relationships without the internet. And you rediscover that when you leave it behind. So yeah, I think in so many ways ... Full disclosure here. If I wasn't a writer who had a book contract with a publisher, I would delete all of my social media too. Just watching my wife live that way, it just feels like a better way to live. I don't even know if that answered your question, Peter, but those are some thoughts.

Peter Englert: No, I think that those are important thoughts. Something I laugh about was, I think it was ... It was the following year after the pandemic started. We started reopening church and my wife started coming back and she was pregnant. And people didn't know that she was pregnant. So people would be like, "Hey, can we meet?" And it was two weeks before she was due. "Can we meet?" I go, "Hey, I'm going to schedule a meeting with you but if I canceled, know this is why." And it was really funny. They didn't know. They're like, "Your wife's pregnant? What? How long? Did you just find out?" So there's a lot of ... People in your circle find out. But where I want to go is you're painting a picture of a flourishing life. And you're trying to ... How can we engage digital?
So you've talked about fasting. But I want to push you that take us through a Monday through Saturday. We talk a lot about Sundays. What's the positive space as opposed to the negative space of you painting a picture for 21st century people? We have dechurched and unchurched people that listen to this podcast. What does that look like in your mind from that Monday through Saturday, embodied presence? What are those things?

Jay Kim: Yeah, that's a great question. It's not monolithic. I don't want to say here's the formula, just do this and everything will be fine. Lives are unique stories and people are unique stories. So I think it begins again with awareness. I think where the fast is most helpful, like I said, is it will help you diagnose in which specific ways digital technologies and maybe your misuse or abuse of said technologies, in which ways they might be most harming you, most deforming you, and then you can respond accordingly. That's where the fast I think is so helpful.
But in terms of a Monday through Sunday sort of rhythm, yeah, again, at the risk of repeating myself, I just think incorporating intentional rhythms to live a non digital life with some level of consistency is so critically important. So replacement I think, intentional replacement can be really healthy. Go on a walk on your break instead of scrolling your Twitter. Eat lunch outside instead of eating lunch at your desk while you read cnn.com or foxnews.com. Go slow.
Some of this comes from my friend, John Mark Comer's book, The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. He's got these really practical things like drive in the slow lane. Because there's all these, again, formational aspects of digital technology. It's not even just when you're using the technology. We've become as one example so deeply impatient because everything in an online world is so fast and we have to actually intentionally form ourselves into a patient people. And that kind of thing can be really practical.
So one thing I've started to do and then stopped doing and need to sort of restart again. I live about a seven minute drive from my office. But that seven minute drive is about a 20 minute ride on my bike. So for several months, not just for the exercise, but to slow myself down, instead of driving to work, which is so easy and convenient, I started riding my bike to work. Because it just took me longer and I was outside and I was using my body and I could feel the wind on my face. All of those things are ways to remind ourselves that we are dirt and dust. That God has breathed his life into animated creatures with body and bone. And digital technology makes us really forgetful of that fact.
We begin to believe that we're simply avatars or that we're simply these feeds that we project out into the world. But we're not. And so on a weekly basis I just think incorporating rhythms that are really embodied and being consistent and disciplined about those rhythms is a healthy and I would argue a very Christian way to live.

Aaron Mercer: Thank you for sharing all that. No, that was great. What are some ways that you would suggest to a Christian or even a leader, but let's just anyone who's listening ... What I'm hearing you say is it doesn't mean that you don't use tools. You do a fast from a tool to find out what's hanging you up or what are you craving too much of. But let's say once you've assessed where you're at, what are some ways that you can use some of these tools as tools and what are some signals that you might see, like, okay, I need to be a little bit cautious here about using social media or using ... I mean, guess I can see with social media or with some other tools, there's ways you can connect with people near and far. For a church, you can connect with people you have doing outreach around the world that you wouldn't be able to connect with otherwise. And you can be building relationships in that way.
But at what point does the tool become something more than that? Something that's feeding your addiction or even maybe an idol of sorts? What are some warning signs that you're looking out for to be cautious for yourself, for people in your congregation or just with friends or family?

Peter Englert: And I'd add this. I want to have some fun with you because you said you're jealous of your wife and friends that got rid of social media. I guess I'd even make it more personal. For your job as a pastor, one could argue and also as an author, you have to be on social media. What are some personal ways that you're engaging what Aaron asked to really help our listeners?

Jay Kim: Yeah, I think that's a great question you guys. I'll try to keep it really simple. For me, and it's the same answer to both of those questions. What would I suggest and what do I do? And there's probably a million ways to do this and brilliant ways to do it. Far more brilliant than anything I'm going to offer. Because what I'm going to offer is really simple. I don't do this well all the time, but I'm getting better at it. Every time I open any form of social media or online media to read the news or whatever, I try to ask myself, why do I feel the need to do this right now? And then why do I feel the desire to do this right now? And then the follow up to those questions is, do I actually need to do this right now?
And the order is important because it almost always feels like a need initially. And then the answer 90% of the time is I don't actually need to do this. I feel the need, but I don't have a good reason why. I don't need to go on social media. I don't need to read the news right now. It's not always true, but 90% of the time it is. So then I go to the next question. Okay. Yeah. Or need to open my email. And then it'll go to the next question, which is okay, so then why do I feel the desire? And I just try to name it. Well, I'm bored. Or I want to see who won the game last night so I'm going on espn.com or whatever. Or I just, honestly I posted that picture yesterday and I just really ... My desire is some affirmation. I want to see how many people liked it.
But naming it is really helpful because it strips it of its power. And then I ask the question after, okay, do I actually need to go on this right now? And honestly, sometimes the answer is yes. Yeah, I need to go on email right now. I'm working and this is the time allotted on my calendar that I go through my emails. Great, easy. I don't literally have to ask the question. Sometimes it's just very easy. Like yeah, I know the answer. This is on my calendar. Monday afternoon I spend time going through my emails. So I need to do it right now. It's part of my daily rhythm. But often the answer, most of the time, the answer ends up being, oh, I don't actually need to go on this right now. And then I try to have the discipline to not. And sometimes I fail, but I'm getting better. So there you go. Simple process for me, but it's been helpful.

Aaron Mercer: I like that.

Peter Englert: Man, I am so excited for your book to come out. Before we get to the last question I just want to remind our listeners, we've got to thank the great Krista Clayton from InterVarsity Press. If you want to go buy this book at ivp.com or ivppress.com, you can get a 30% discount by using the code, WHYGOD. But the question we always end with is what does Jesus have to say about this topic? Aaron and I respond and then the good news is like a good pastor you can clean up whatever mess we left. Does that sound good?

Jay Kim: Sure.

Peter Englert: You want to go first or you want me?

Aaron Mercer: Go ahead.

Peter Englert: Okay. So as you were talking we interviewed Paul Pastor and he said something very similar to what you said, which was, he said, his house doesn't have like gas heat. It's wood heat. So he has to chop the wood. And I was thinking about Jesus in this time. Because the digital age has definitely pushed us to be less patient. And I was just thinking about some of the miracles. Jesus told his disciples to catch a fish and pull a coin out of them. And he told his disciples to put the nets on the other side. And I wonder if what he would ask us to do if he was ... He's with us in a way, but if he was physically walking this earth with us that we could see and talk with him. And I wonder what he would ask us to do that would be so inconvenient, but it would be so helpful.
And what I'm leaving with in this conversation, why are we discontent, fragile and foolish? It's almost as if we think that we're way too much more important than we really are. And I think the power of what Jesus does is he actually asks you to do foolish things and to do so it forms you in ways that you never thought you could.
And I just think what's powerful about some of the things that he does, there's times when he literally calls Paul to go to the opposite direction that on a map it looks like this huge Z. And I think in some ways, what he's asking us to do with digital is where people are zigging, he's calling us to zag and not to be counter, but because he ultimately wants us to have a flourishing and better life. So I'm wrestling with that as I listened just in this conversation.

Aaron Mercer: Yeah. Thank you, Peter. Yeah, no. I think that it's an ongoing question I think that a lot of people wrestle with. Certainly, I do too. I think technology, there's a lot of power to it. There's a lot of beauty to it. I think that God does call some people to go into monasteries and whatnot or live out in the fields which there's a beauty to that too, but not everybody. And so how do we engage the world that we live in without giving into some of the dangers I think that we talked about today? And that's certainly something that I think through and whether ... Because I think technology can ... Particularly certain kinds of technology can feed either our pride or our fear and that's not healthy.
And so how do we use it in a way that's projecting love and connection? And that's an ongoing thing. And I thought this conversation was really helpful for that. Right now, if anything, I would guess that in America today in particular as well as a number of other countries, but certainly here in our context, we are overdoing it. The technology side. So I think I love the idea of a fast and those questions Jay, that you brought up of, do I need it and then name the reason why and then ask again, do I really need it? I think that's a really helpful framework to use. So I'll pass it over to you now for ... Close us up and-

Jay Kim: No. That's well said you guys. I don't have much to add to that. Yeah, that is well, well said. I agree completely. And I think those are great thoughts and questions to ponder. I think if I had a summary statement, Jesus' words in the gospels and Matthew six and other places, no one can serve two masters. So we have to ask the question is anything mastering me? Which then reminds me of Paul's words. Yeah, it's permissible, but is it beneficial? Right? It's permissible, but I will not be mastered by anything. And I think we have to ask those questions, which I think is essentially it's what you all are saying. So yeah. Completely agree. Well said.

Peter Englert: Well, Jay, we just appreciate you. Like I said, his book Analog Christian is coming out today when this airs and then there's of course his book Analog Church. I'd encourage wherever you are in your faith journey, it's well worth the read. So we always ask our guests this, but I hesitate to ask you just because of what our topic. Where's the best place people can find you online?

Jay Kim: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's always an ironic question to answer, but I'm online. I am online. So yeah. I just have a little website, jaykimthinks.com and all of my stuff is there. You could email me. There's a link to email me as well. Would love to hear from you. And yeah, that's my handle on ... Again, I have to be on social media. So Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, it's all just Jay Kim Thinks. So yeah, there you go.

Peter Englert: Awesome. And you can find us at whygodwhypodcast.com. The best way to get ahold of us is to click this subscribe button. We'll send an email with this great episode and other great episodes. We're so glad to be part of the Lumivoz network of podcasts. We hope you check those out. And Jay, thanks so much for being on with us.

Jay Kim: Thank you guys. Yeah, it was a blast. Thank you.