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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01.264)
Welcome back to our series about the feminist founders framework and the various components of that. We've already talked to you about the first piece, which was vision. And so now we're going to dive into the next bucket, which is leadership and talking about, think that when we think about this faith, correct me if you feel like it's different, but I think we're talking about both internal self leadership and then also leadership of others.
So even if you're a solopreneur and you don't necessarily have a team, there is always a leadership component in business because you're leading yourself. But even if also, if you don't have a team, most of us, we still have clients and we need to show up as leaders for our clients. We have community. need, you know, we want to show up as leaders inside of those communities. And even if we don't have employees very often, we still have people who helping us in different components of our business, whether that's with bookkeeping and taxes or...
you helping with some social media things with your podcast editing, whatever it is. Most of us have other folks and those are places where we can also show up as leaders. And clearly, if you have a staff, then you are necessarily a leader. But I just want to make sure that I think sometimes when we think of ourselves as solo preneurs, we think, well, I'm not really a leader. I'm you know, it's just me. But you have to lead yourself and you want to set. You know, we hear a lot about thought leadership.
and the way you're showing up talking about your business, talking about your industry, those are all opportunities for leadership. So when you think about leadership, Faith, I'm assuming there's probably a similarity there. Is there anything I'm missing when I think about like the ways that we show up as leaders?
Faith Clarke (01:38.304)
I don't know that it's missing, but one of things that helps me is to think about my business as separate from me. So I'm leading in the design and structuring and execution of my business. There's a relationship between me and this entity, and I'm leading in that relationship. And so...
that even when as a solopreneur, because I still am a solopreneur, there's something about going with a Ksirasa-ra kind of approach, or really being intentional about what am I crafting? And so that's for me the leadership component. What am I crafting? Because something is going to show up. It's going to be crafted in some way. And am I the one influencing that? I think leadership is influence.
Am I the one influencing that or am I just kind of letting the forces, you know, make things happen as they happen? So it's kind of how, so I think even when we think about with staff, yeah, there's a people management component, but that's not necessarily leadership. You know, are we the ones influencing the intangibles in our business as well as the tangibles, the profits, the, you know, products, stuff like that.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:58.16)
Well, that's why it comes on the heels of vision, right? Because that vision piece is an intangible. It's not a product we're selling. It's not a thing we can count in a spreadsheet, but it is what matters to us. What is this world we're wanting to create? What are the things that we value the most? Who do we want to be as we go about creating that world? And that is where the leadership piece comes in, because this is what separates
that vision from being a thing that just sits on your website or in your manual and doesn't actually mean anything versus it being something that actually drives the decisions in your business. And that is how you use that information as a leader of yourself and of others and of your company. It's am I taking that vision and actually making it happen? And so it's that idea of
inviting others into that vision, inviting yourself into making the vision happen, and then inviting others into that journey with you of creating that world that we want. And that is where it becomes more tangible. Am I doing things that actually make this vision a reality?
Faith Clarke (04:06.702)
Right? And starting with, like you're saying, myself, right? So have I invited myself into the vision? And then how am I holding myself accountable to living this vision out just with myself? And then how am I inviting, like you're saying, others by creating environments where that vision is the norm, the new normal inside here in conversation with me? That's the place where we're living out that vision.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:36.198)
Yeah, accountability is such a big important part of that, right? Because it doesn't matter what you say you value if your actions don't align with that. And so that's where, you we have to hold ourselves accountable as leaders to say, before I start telling other people, this is what our business stands for. This is the world that we're trying to create. Am I actually doing that for myself? And that can be really hard, I think, to get honest with yourself sometimes. And it's hard sometimes to do that.
If you are a solopreneur and you're kind of in a vacuum, right? Where you're not necessarily having other people to reflect back to you what they're seeing, you're having to be able to, you have to get really honest with yourself to say, am I really, am I actually showing up the way I say I'm showing up? am I leading the charge at creating this world that I envision? And that's challenging. Like I can speak for myself that that's been challenging for me.
because there are times where I say this is the thing I want, but then if I get really honest and look at the way I'm showing up, my goodness, some of my practices are still really grounded in this stuff I say that I don't want, that is against what I say I want. An example of that is, I very clearly have said I don't want to participate in hustle culture. Like I want to create a world where rest is valued, where we are free to deliver in a time that works for us with our own bodies, rhythms and those things.
And I really do believe that and I do value that. And then I can get, if I get real honest with myself, there are many times where I have to catch myself and say, why am I creating this false urgency? You know, why am I making myself, why am I so attached to this deadline? I'm a solopreneur. I get to set my own deadlines. Why have I now made myself where I'm feeling stressed about getting something accomplished by a certain date that I set for myself that I can easily change?
It's because I'm not really living into that value yet. And that's the self leadership piece. And I think it can be so hard to do that sometimes for yourself.
Faith Clarke (06:40.47)
Yeah, I think that the thing that makes it hard too is that there are legitimate reasons, there are legitimate reinforcers of the old leadership patterns, like my rent coming due tomorrow. so the fact is that the environment has been set up to herd us in a hustle way.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:58.386)
That's a big one.
Faith Clarke (07:05.014)
so that we are producing because our bodies have been commoditized for labor in this system. And when we try to do something different, we come upon the really true and honest risks associated with that in the environment, especially if you hold multiple marginalized identities. And so a lot of the people that we care for in Feminist Founders, to start off, many of them are not men.
And so you start off from that position of, there are risks and reduced resources associated with not cooperating with system. And so part of our leadership has to be how do we build the leadership practices that strengthen these muscles and help us to be able to navigate those risks? And how do we build even communal leadership practices that can help us to
Okay, fine. I'm close to the ledge now, Becky. The rent is due tomorrow. What are the, know we are in a group where that's a question that comes up. What are the more restful ways? are the, remind me again of what I value and give me some ideas about how I can do this in ways that are not, yeah, toxic, harmful, you know, and aligning with old structures, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:27.474)
Well, that's where community is so important because again, that's sort of what I was driving at where it can be so difficult to do this for yourself because you can have all of the best intentions and all of the greatest heart for all of this and have really clear values and things that you believe in. it is almost always easier to bring like to have others do that or to hold that for others and sort of exceptionalize yourself.
Like I'm the exception from these rules and not in ways that is like, think for most of us who have big hearts, it's not like, I'm better than that. But it's like, it's almost like I don't deserve that thing that comes up where I want it for my people. I want my team to know that they can rest, but I don't know that I really deserve rest. And I have to, and I think having community that you can share your values with and who understand that and can be that mirror for you.
is so, so important when you are especially a solopreneur, but any business owner, because in the way we view leadership often, the leader gets somewhat removed. We want to remove some of those, separation, but still there is some separation that happens there and having others that you can turn to so that you're not burdening your employees with your own feelings on these things. It's just so important whether you're a solopreneur or you have a team to have community you can turn to that can sort of
hold that mirror up like you do for me and Jordan does for me and Taina does for me to say and we do back to say, wait a minute, is that aligned with your values? Are you showing up for yourself the way you say you want to? Cause it's hard.
Faith Clarke (10:03.82)
Yeah. And I think too that, just as you said, you know, you don't want to burden your employees. I, when I hear that phrase, I just think that's so much a part of the system of separation that we've inherited, right? That leaders need to look a certain way to, lead us to, be almost, it's, it's the model figure, you know, and in so many ways we, don't allow ourselves to.
be fully human and to allow our work communities to support us. And so, you know, what if we were actually leading and creating spaces where all of us together are creating this new culture, which means I let my vulnerability show, you know, I allow myself to be, there's a way that when things are financially difficult in the business, there's this thought that, whoa,
If I tell the people, then they'll leave and then I'll, you know, or whatever it is, you know, they won't trust my leadership. And I, the deconstructing of old systems, it's like you can't start and then not continue because you have to challenge that. like, okay, how do I lead? Vulnerably. How do I lead? and model how to navigate hard things. How do I, lead in a way that encourages community to support me?
And what if that community is the people that I've brought on? My clients, my team members, you how do I lead with that vulnerability? And that's terrifying because again, the risk of loss of your reputation, like we all know, you kind of look that way, you know, but I just, I keep asking myself, what is the different way that I really want? I'm, we're in uncharted territory, you know, this isn't something that's being done.
widely across the board.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:59.408)
Right. Well, and I think it makes me think a little bit about what are some of the misconceptions people have about leadership. Because I do think that's a big one, that it looks like you can never be vulnerable, that you can never be sharing those realities, that you have to turn elsewhere for that, that we can't invite the team into the messiness. And I agree. And so thanks for catching that, because I agree. I think another one is that leading means that you never follow.
Right, so if I'm the leader in the organization, I must always be in the lead. And I think it's really important too, to recognize that you can be a leader who also follows. That sometimes there's someone else on your team who may be better suited for something in a particular setting and it's okay to let them lead. And this is where that micromanaging thing comes up that none of us like to experience. And yet often we go into leadership and we think, well, I'm the leader, so I have to have all the answers. I have to be the one that's leading in all situations.
And there are times where it's absolute, like I think it shows better leadership to say, actually, you're the person who has the strength, you lead here and I'll follow in this situation. And that's vulnerable to do. And so I think that idea of vulnerability as a leader is really important. And if we can't do it when we're solopreneurs, right? If we can't be vulnerable then, if we can't find our communities that we can step inside and say, I need to be vulnerable here.
How do we think we're gonna do that when we have a team of people? We can't. And so it's important to like, that's where that self leadership comes first to learn how to develop these skills. And it's, I see this all the time where I, with my clients, and I don't know if you have this experience as well, but my clients who are leaders, they're, you know, who have teams who will very often like talk about the things they want for their team, these value set that they have around rest or.
you know, or whatever the thing is. Yes, I want my team to feel like they can be really vulnerable. And yet, when I talk to them about how are you showing up vulnerably, how much rest are you getting? They have exceptionalized themselves. Well, I can't do that either because I'm the leader and they won't trust me. They'll, whatever that is or like, well, but I'm the one the ship goes down if I am not taking care of it. So I can't rest. And I always think like,
Becky Mollenkamp (14:22.204)
What are you modeling? We talk about that. Like, what is that modeling? And people think, well, no, but I'm telling them this. But we know in the same way, and I don't mean to infantilize adults, but in the same way children learn by what they see their parents doing far more than what they hear their parents doing. That's the truth for all of us as we age. We take much more on like, what are they showing me? Because they can tell me whatever they want. But if I don't see it, then I don't believe they actually mean it. And how do I know what...
I see it's like what I see them doing. If they're the last one to leave the office, the first one to show up, you they're never taking breaks. And how do I start to feel like it's safe for me to do, even if they're telling me all the time, no, no, no, really, you should rest. I don't know that I believe it. Right. So it's, it's so important for us to do this internally so that we can model it.
Faith Clarke (15:10.35)
Yeah, I think that the, mean, just calling ourselves on our lives, really, it's super important. The doing for, not doing with is just a function of supremacist ideology. It's the same stuff, patriarchy and all the other ones, determining that some people need me to do for them. But then I, you know, I care for me. It's just a function of hierarchy. And the more valuable I am,
the more I have to know the right answers, the right way, and leadership is how I show that, right? And so that's wholly different from integration, where everybody has expertise and everybody has needs and we're all kind of feeding in. And my leadership, one of the examples of leadership that I really love is that person who is able to say, wait, I think this is the wrong forest, know, separating the forest from the trees.
that we're all in the space doing the work in ways that share our skills, share our capabilities. And my role is to what's the vision, how do all the things align, and how am I constantly inviting people into this vision and then helping co-create this new world, right? And so, yeah, my work is, yeah, this is the right forest. Or no, is this the right forest? While at the same time,
having the humility to say, I don't have all the knowledge and all the skills to do this work in this forest. And for that to be okay, because what we're perpetuating is this, yeah, you need to have all the right answers, which nothing in nature works that way. I am, know, part, because this, lot of this is so much, it's new, I haven't lived it out in workplaces.
then I am looking at nature models. how, I am nature, how does nature work? And just to kind of see the interplay of information passing and sensing and offering and receiving that's happening in nature. It's like, we've built something else that definitely can't work where we are these rules and you know, anyway.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:31.332)
It makes me think about, I love that you just brought that up because I've never thought about it this way, but it makes me think about birds and you know how they fly in that V formation. And what you learn if you study birds is that lead bird changes because they get tired. So they move to the back and then the next bird steps up and that continues to happen and they cycle through because they know we can't get the distance that we're trying to get if this one bird is there because they will slow down too much.
Faith Clarke (17:42.062)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:56.658)
because they will get tired. So we have to allow them to rest, to take a back seat and slow down a little and not have to be that front bird so that we can continue to get where we need to go so that we survive. And I haven't thought of that, but I love that model of leadership because that is, it's this collective approach to leadership, knowing that it's for all of our benefit because it helps all of us go farther, go longer when we share the load.
And you mentioned inviting people in, and this is the piece that I was kind of hoping you would speak the most to because it's the piece that's probably the newest for me and the most challenging for me, which is what does it look like? I think it's, I've done a lot of work on that internal leadership part and I'm still constantly working on it. But the idea of inviting others in, when you talk about inviting team members in, I think we've shared a little of that here, but even like clients, collaborators,
What does it look like? What does it mean to invite them into the vision and into that leadership piece?
Faith Clarke (18:58.958)
Yeah, I think that I tend to start from a place where we're all, you know, under dreamed, is there a word? We've all kind of squashed our own desires for what's deeply good for us. And so the first thing when I think about inviting people into a vision in any context, and like as a backdrop, I have a home team, I have a staff team that helps me take care of my son.
So I have been hiring for him for, I would say, you know, 15 years. And because my desires for him are in such contrast to what I see school systems and public service systems having for him, visioning has always been part of my recruitment process. So how I wrote my ad, the very first ad that I felt really good about,
was a statement of vision. my language was, if you see yourself as a person who, and then vision, vision, vision, vision, vision, who, it was a kind of an invitation through words into, it was called the everyday superhero. So at that time I was inviting people into kind of, yeah, put your cape on it and bring meaning into your own life. And so whether it was in the ad or in that first interview, my first interview,
with anybody starts off with like a thought, yeah, like a thought puzzle. And in the thought puzzle, I'm spinning the story of this vision that we want to create. And my own exploration is will this person join me in spinning the vision? And so, and then when I'm having my orientations, it's like, so this is where we could go. And this is what we need to believe values to go there.
And this is a technique we use to go there, but this technique doesn't work if we don't believe this value. And I am building that bridge between our actions and our values because I know that we've lost those connections in the other places that we've been in because I lost it and it took so much effort. so, and with my clients, especially with clients, I have worked really hard to keep up.
Faith Clarke (21:24.642)
breadcrumb trail of vision in all the spaces where they could encounter me. So if they're gonna think I'm wackadoodle, they're gonna think it from the breadcrumb trail because I am spinning the story of what we're creating and why in every way. And so even how I engage my first, people have these, people have formulas for sales calls that you do with clients. Now my sales call is straight,
I want to hear what you're envisioning and this is what I envision and we go off into rabbit holes because I want them to see how I implement what I value based on my vision just in that first conversation with me. And I guess I'm just saying all of that to say, if we believe that we all are vision starved, then there is not too much vision in how you lead. And so,
One of my primary things is how do I, as a leader, have a practice of keeping my visual alive in my body and then making it be something that comes out of my mouth and it shows up at the end of my fingers? And that's the invitation to people. It shows up all the time in all my interactions.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:39.002)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:44.178)
Well, and the piece that I was hearing as you said it and then you verbalized it that feels so important is the action part. Because I think so often vision values are things that live as words and companies think they have it covered. But it is that like, how do I turn it into action and inviting others into the creativity and the exploration of what could it look like? The imagination, like let's dream together. What does this look like if we take these words, this story that we've thought about and
How do we bring that into this situation? What could it be? Right? No wrong answers. What could it be here? What could it look like here? And inviting others into that dreaming with you. And I think trying to find people who are willing to go there, right? Who aren't just saying, feed me the action, tell me the answer, and then I'll do it. And not to say that there's anything wrong with those folks, because of course, so many of us show up that way. Because like you had said earlier, and we all know, we don't have
the experience with this. This is new. We're used to this very traditionally masculine, this very patriarchal vision of what work needs to look like, what life needs to look like. And it doesn't involve creativity and vision. It's status quo, it's rigid, it's this is the way I tell you you do. And so it's hard to challenge that. And it's gonna be harder to find people who are willing to
go into that with you because they aren't sure how to do it. And so I think as part of, in my mind, part of that leadership then is not just inviting them into it, but encouraging them, right? Helping them feel the safety and comfort that, no, this really is different. And when I say there is no bad idea, I mean there is no bad idea. When I invite you into this and you share, I'm not going to judge it, I'm not going to belittle it, I'm not going to say you're wrong, I'm not gonna punish it. Because I think people are probably scared.
often to engage in this way because they haven't, we don't have experiences of this. And the times when we have tried to be creative, we've probably been shut down, right? And so I think that's part of the leadership too. If you're gonna try to do business differently and truly challenge these systems, you have to know that it's gonna be harder to find folks who are there with you and that you're gonna have part of that leadership is like helping them, like bringing them along and helping them feel
Becky Mollenkamp (25:07.6)
that safety to show up in this way.
Faith Clarke (25:11.116)
Yeah, no, because our businesses are hospitals. Like this is a process of healing for the people we invite in. And so the steady, you know, what is it going to take for faith to drink water regularly? It's constant reminder. Like everybody, let me drink water. No, everybody who knows me needs to say.
did you drink some water? And then I'm going to have to just stop and obey, you know? And I think that's the same, these restorative practices as leaders, part of what we are also going to need to do is that people are not going to trust us. They're going to trust us. Like when I spin my yarn in the ad and you know, in the first orientation, everybody's excited, but their habits are going to show up in their daily practice. The habits that they got over life.
And so my constant invitation, I talk a lot about radical invitations. I'm going to have to repeat myself a whole ton. And, that's part of my invitation as a leader into vision. And then I'm also going to have to let myself be seen struggling with this because I do struggle with it. And so I'm going to have to catch myself saying, my goodness, I, I want to have the right answer and I don't have it. And I feel like y'all are not going to trust me anymore. And that's.
hard for me and yet I'm the one who, I call myself out loud on all my stuff because people have to see that I also struggle with the various things that everybody struggles with. Otherwise, no one has permission and all their old patterns will just be showing up.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:49.926)
Yeah, it's funny because I think in the first or the second episode, the last episode we did around vision, you talked about, and I know I've heard you talk about this, that that vision is kind of the medicine that we need, right? And that's the medicine we want to give others as the medicine that we need. And now the leadership is the hospital of where we're administering this medicine for ourselves and others. So we'll see if this metaphor rings, continues in our other episodes that will be coming out. But I know we're trying to be mindful of time.
Again, we could talk about these issues forever because we care about them so deeply and it's what we wanna help others with, which is why we're sharing this with you because we hope you listeners are also excited about challenging business and looking at what are the pieces that, what does it mean? Like, what does it actually mean? Because we all talk about it, not all, but a lot of us are talking about it. We don't know what it actually means in practice. And so that's what these episodes are about. And again, at the end of the series, we're gonna invite you into a program with us. If you're wanting to take these things and make, take it deeper, but also,
Take it specifically to your business because I know how it can be. listen to this stuff and you think, that sounds great, but I don't know how to bring that to this specific thing inside of my business. And that's what we want to help you with at the end of this. But also, even if you don't invite, you know, don't join us in that offer, we hope that we're giving you some information that will be valuable. So before we finish up, I just want to make sure, was there anything else you wanted to make sure we talked about, Faith?
Faith Clarke (28:07.724)
Well, before we even, I'm going to check. But when I say medicine, I'm always talking about the thing that heals, because I am so much, I'll just out myself. I'm not a big pharma. I'm anti some of these structures. And so when we think of hospital for ourselves, I'm just like, what's the culture of healing and restoration that we're creating? And for sure, this element is part of the medicine. I think that I am.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:32.465)
Well, that's perfect because we're talking about culture next.
Faith Clarke (28:36.686)
I think that just as we wrap up, as a leader, I'm trying to get myself into a rhythm. I'm a rhythm and ritual person. And just the way our lives have been, it seems like it wants to break my desire for rhythm and ritual. Everything feels chaotic and haphazard. So I'm asking myself, what's the rhythm of engagement with my vision? And...
establishment review of my own practices. So what's the one leadership practice that I'm being invited into right now for myself and it so happens to be rest. Like, Oh, how do I do this? Please. Right. And then what's my rhythm of engagement with that? What's my check-in, you know, just the same way you check your KPIs or whatever you check at the end of the month. What's my check-in on my practicing of my self-compassion and my rest and my
these various things that we've hopefully operationalized into practices and activities that we're doing with ourselves. And so that's, I'd ask you that.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:42.97)
I think it's a thing to, yeah, it's a good thing to leave people with to ask yourself what is for you, what is that? And I know, like for me, I was immediately thinking rest, then I think the truth is I think mine's vulnerability at the moment because I need rest. But for me to take that, I have to get vulnerable with people and share that, hey, I'm dealing with some depression right now. I'm dealing with some issues that are.
heavy and it's been challenging and it's hard for me to want to invite people into that because of all of those things around does that make me seem like less of a leader? Does it make me seem less strong? So vulnerability I think is my current challenge and how am I doing that? What does it look like? And so thinking about some of those checkpoints or ways of measuring it I think are valuable. I think for me it's like, am I showing up to calls? Because right now I don't even want to do that. So thank you for that.
That's a great question to ask yourself. And then our next episode, we're going to talk about culture. You just mentioned culture because especially when you have a team, but again, your culture includes your clients. It includes not just team members, but clients and community. Again, what is this like when we take that leadership and then start to bring it? How do we create a culture where it doesn't require only you involved to make that show up, right? You can be out of the room and that culture still continues.
So that will be our next episode and thank you so much for listening to these episodes with us and thank you Faith for doing this with me and for being my partner in all of this. I love it.
Faith Clarke (31:10.19)
I need people working with me on the stuff that matters. So thank you for being that person.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:15.378)
Yeah, thank you everyone for listening. All right, we'll be back shortly with another episode.