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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Heather Bell: I got so badly burned in previous roles that now I'm like, "I can't be a torch bearer." I've tried making room for
[00:00:06] Shannon Curran: No, I get it
[00:00:07] Heather Bell: I can't be the only woman in the room anymore because I'm exhausted
[00:00:12] Shannon Curran: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:14] This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public. .
[00:00:24] Heather Bell: hi, Heather. Thank you. Thank you for coming to talk to us. I know that you mentioned that you've listened before, so I'm not gonna do the whole entire, spiel, but, tell us about you. Tell us about your family.
[00:00:36] Yeah. So I, I live now on the East Coast. I'm near Philadelphia. I'll talk about why that's relevant in a second. I have a 10-year-old boy and a six-year-old girl, and, um, my husband and I have been together for, like, 15... Yeah, 15 years. My daughter was just looking
[00:00:55] at our wedding album last night and said, "Everyone looks so young here.
[00:00:59] You're [00:01:00] so young." I'm like, " Okay, yeah, you've made us
[00:01:03] Um, we moved, we moved from California. I lived in the Bay Area my whole life. It's where I grew up.
[00:01:11] We moved during COVID, to be on the East Coast near my in-laws. and my parents moved to be with us, too.
[00:01:17] So we
[00:01:17] have, like, a whole
[00:01:18] Mallory Lee: Oh, great That's great
[00:01:21] Heather Bell: in tech for about as long as I've been with my husband, so
[00:01:25] Mallory Lee: Okay. And where do you work right now?
[00:01:27] Heather Bell: Yeah, I work for Vector. so I'm in, MarTech and have been, largely in go-to-market, tech sales for a lot of my career. Half of it, though, was at OpenTable, which is objectively, I think, more fun than any other tech
[00:01:43] that, uh, that I've sold
[00:01:44] Mallory Lee: Awesome. Okay. So you must work with Sarah then, who is another one of my tech friends, Sarah McNamara. She's the best
[00:01:53] Heather Bell: Yeah, I work with two celebrities. I work with Sarah McNamara and Jess Cook.
[00:01:58] Shannon Curran: So Jess is gonna be on the show in a [00:02:00] few weeks too.
[00:02:01] Heather Bell: Oh, fun.
[00:02:02] Mallory Lee: Oh. I didn't even know that
[00:02:06] Shannon Curran: I didn't look, I was like, "Vector?" I was like, "Oh, this, you can tell that this is not our full-time job." I thought we were like... So awesome. Talk about a, like, badass women leadership team there.
[00:02:16] Like, that
[00:02:17] Mallory Lee: know
[00:02:18] Heather Bell: It's why I joined. Yeah. When I was looking for a new role, Jess posted about it, and immediately I wanna work with her, right? She's... She is everything you see online. She's even cooler. Like, she's good at karaoke, and she's good at her job, and she's humble. It's... She's a lot. It's- She's incredible
[00:02:41] Mallory Lee: That's so cool. Awesome.
[00:02:43] Shannon Curran: That's Awesome.
[00:02:44] Mallory Lee: um, side note, I didn't know that people grew up in the Bay Area. I thought everyone just moved there.
[00:02:50] Shannon Curran: That's how I feel about LA too. I feel that way about LA. I'm like, "You can grow up there?" You know, like that is like a funny, yeah
[00:02:56] Heather Bell: You can. And then all of, like, [00:03:00] my son was there until he was four, so all of his uncles, my, my husband makes video games. All of his uncles make video games. so if he has a question about something, we're just texting Uncle Brian about, the 2K game that they have questions on. So life is very different for Bay Area kids.
[00:03:17] In my case, I grew up in Napa, so a lot of our friends were in agriculture
[00:03:21] Shannon Curran: Ooh, beautiful
[00:03:23] Mallory Lee: I'm jealous of that. I'm in Indiana where everything's very flat. We have a lot of corn. We have a great cost of living. We joke about
[00:03:33] Heather Bell: That's
[00:03:33] the
[00:03:33] Shannon Curran: g-
[00:03:35] Mallory Lee: Yeah,
[00:03:36] Heather Bell: long commutes. so definitely a latchkey kid and, really didn't understand the sacrifice that they were making until I was a parent. but they commuted like an hour and a half each way because
[00:03:46] Mallory Lee: Wow
[00:03:47] Heather Bell: it was too expensive to be closer to San Francisco or Oakland where they had to commute to
[00:03:53] Shannon Curran: And what did they do for work? Were they in tech or no?
[00:03:56] Heather Bell: No.my mom worked... She has the coolest job. Well, did. [00:04:00] She retired recently. Worked for the USDA and, helped get grants to make sure that we can breathe and that trees are happy and healthy throughout, the Pacific Northwest and then the Pacific Islands. and my dad worked for Lockheed Martin. he, like, can't talk about what he did, so um, that was, that was, like, more tech. Um,
[00:04:19] Shannon Curran: in the CIA, uh, we just can't talk about it.
[00:04:22] Mallory Lee: Lockheed Martin, yeah.
[00:04:24] Heather Bell: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:24] Shannon Curran: yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:25] Mallory Lee: quotes
[00:04:26] And your role at Vector is in sales
[00:04:30] Heather Bell: Yeah, I'm the VP of sales. So I joined Vector about five months ago to help scale. So it's my second, builder role where I'm helping build out the, what the sales org looks like and what the process looks like
[00:04:45] Mallory Lee: Awesome. So we mentioned that you guys have a strong female leadership team. is the sales team 50/50, lots of women, like lots of guys? What's the breakdown
[00:04:56] there?
[00:04:57] Heather Bell: Our team is very small [00:05:00] right now, but we have two women and one man. Um,
[00:05:04] and as we're hiring, so I desperately need aides if you know anybody. and I would say all the applicants, everything's been 50/50.
[00:05:13] I do
[00:05:13] think that a silver lining of go-to-market tech is
[00:05:17] Mallory Lee: Mm-hmm
[00:05:19] Heather Bell: there are, there are a lot of women, whereas when I was in security tech, I was only woman in leadership.
[00:05:25] I was the only woman on the sales floor, the only woman in meetings. so it gets lonely very, very fast
[00:05:31] Mallory Lee: Yeah, I would love to hear more about that because I personally haven't experienced that very much. what I've experienced is being like in the executive team meetings where I'm the only female, that's been,
[00:05:45] Shannon Curran: Every day.
[00:05:47] Mallory Lee: Yeah,
[00:05:48] of times. But always think that the breakdown across big sales orgs is fascinating because I think you hear about women who like need to be one of the guys, and [00:06:00] I don't know how true that is or anything, but, I'd love to hear your war stories from that.
[00:06:05] Heather Bell: Yeah. I found, you know, yes, you need to be one of the guys. Like, I love baseball, and I started playing fantasy football so that I could talk about it. it doesn't change the fact that I'm not, that, I'm not getting invited to insert male activity like golf, which I know there are a lot of women who golf, but I don't golf, so I'm not invited to the golfing thing.
[00:06:29] I'm not invited to the private club thing. I'm not invited
[00:06:33] to drinks after because there's sensitivity of you can't be one-on-one with your female, subordinate often. It was like my CRO. be one-on-one in a bar with a woman after work. so it was a lot of lunch meetings, and there were things that I definitely felt like there was implicit bias because of that, you know, you're a little...
[00:06:55] They have to keep you in a, a little bit in a box
[00:06:58] Mallory Lee: Ja
[00:06:59] what'd you do [00:07:00] about that?
[00:07:01] Heather Bell: I left the company. I got everything that I could.
[00:07:05] Mallory Lee: Ja yeah, you take in everything that you can. person was still a sponsor. I just figured out, how can you sponsor me getting drinks at night? And often that meant going to a place where remote work was a bigger priority, because remote work there's much less of that, right?
[00:07:25] Heather Bell: Like you
[00:07:25] can participate in Slack channels, and you can get one-on-one time, and at least it was maybe, maybe just that it was less visible to me,things that were happening kind of around me. But for me, remote work did unlock a lot of that. But I have really found that if you look around and you're there because you're the woman, that is not where you want to be.
[00:07:46] Vector is the first place that I've been at I know I wasn't hired because I was a woman, I was hired because I was the best person for the role,
[00:07:54] and nobody talks about, uh, gender. Except for in our most [00:08:00] recent hiring. we just offered a new head of CS, and it is another woman that's coming on board.
[00:08:06] And, um, so our, our two white male co-founders were like, "Wow, we've really built a team that is not like the two of us." that was the only time that it ever came up
[00:08:16] Mallory Lee: ... So I've also been in tech for a long time, and I'm c- and I'm a fractional CMO currently. I'm on multiple leadership teams where I'm the only woman. And It's interesting, 'cause I had someone say to me once, it was actually pretty recently.
[00:08:28] Shannon Curran: She was like, "Aren't you sick of, being in environments where it's not value- like, women are not valued? And, like, c- okay, are we just gonna not participate in that anymore?" And I was like, "So that's not my take, because how is it ever going to change if I ... And I am in a place of privilege where I am able to get these roles, I'm able to be in the rooms, I'm able to
[00:08:50] So, who is gonna change it if not me, right?" And so that's where I actually do talk a lot about the need for diverse perspectives in the [00:09:00] room, right? And this is what I, what I always say about hiring, is we need a diverse pool of candidates. And then once we have that diverse pool, we pick the best person,
[00:09:06] But if you don't have a diverse pool, you didn't do a good job. You just reached out to everyone's network that they all went to business school with and now they golf with on the weekends, and now they all, built a company together. That's how you don't get diversity of thought and, like, perspectives and all those things, right?
[00:09:20] And so I think it's an interesting thing of, like, it's great not to talk about it if you don't have to, but sometimes it is the hard conversation that you have to talk about to build a diverse team, with interesting perspectives, especially when your ICP is women. this is what kills me, is, like, when you're in companies that you're selling to women and you have a bunch of, white guys planning the events, and you're like, "Oh, God, this is not gonna
[00:09:40] Or choosing the swag. This came up today for me. It's like, "Guys, no more vests. No more vests." Like, I can't, I ... Like, we gotta stop this. It's an
[00:09:48] Mallory Lee: People are giving away vests?
[00:09:51] Shannon Curran: They're ... Well, so they're talking about swag for, like, an, an offsite. And they're like, "All
[00:09:55] Mallory Lee: Oh, for like the employees
[00:09:56] Shannon Curran: or a vest." And I was like, "So, no.
[00:09:59] Like, we're not [00:10:00] gonna do that. ..." Like, the ladies are not into that. Like, I, we gotta
[00:10:04] Heather Bell: that's a hill I will die on and I will stomp my feet at every company of
[00:10:08] Shannon Curran: Wait, do tell
[00:10:10] Heather Bell: so going back to the security company I was at, everything was a vest,back when you could do like a
[00:10:16] partnership. They don't, I don't think they do it anymore.
[00:10:18] so you walked in, tech heyday, this was like 2014. Wall of Patagonia. You could pick, you could have your vest. at the time I was 100 pounds heavier than I am now.
[00:10:30] Nothing fit me. Patagonia didn't make a double XL. Okay, well ... And they didn't make a women's cut. Like the company didn't buy a women's cut.
[00:10:38] I'm like, "Okay, well, one, you're telling me I'm too fat to wear swag here. That's great. Thanks."
[00:10:44] Uh,
[00:10:45] and two, the company there was actually, o- outside of leadership, um, was very, like there were 50% women. You're telling me we can't put on this giant swag wall, we can't have any women's cuts? And that was the one thing that [00:11:00] like I made happen swag-wise
[00:11:02] because it does matter. A unisex tee, I wanna see the brand, I wanna see the size chart. I wanna know exactly because I wanna wear the swag. I don't want some giant shirt that I'm gonna look terrible in. And I think it's something that companies are now kind of coming around to, but the ugly swag too, I can't get over. And it is,
[00:11:22] Shannon Curran: The polos. The polos.
[00:11:25] Heather Bell: a male person picking the swag
[00:11:28] Mallory Lee: I remember when I was an intern at Carrier, during college, and it's a big heating and cooling manufacturer for anybody who doesn't know what that is. But it was all guys, all, you know, my dad's age. Like, they were awesome guys, loved them, but the shirts and the attire, it was very dad. they would order the women's cuts, but they were still, like, dad shirts, you
[00:11:56] Heather Bell: Mm.
[00:11:57] Like a
[00:11:57] Mallory Lee: I would
[00:11:58] Heather Bell: polo. You're like,
[00:11:59] Mallory Lee: yes, [00:12:00] ladies
[00:12:01] for
[00:12:01] Shannon Curran: I think I've told that story on this podcast about the polos that I just threw out at a user conference. I looked like a tennis coach. I was like, "I can't, I can't make this work. This isn't working for me. It's just not working for me. I can't do it."
[00:12:14] Mallory Lee: I will like a, um... This is so niche. I will do like a Croft & Barrow sleeveless women's polo.
[00:12:25] I think, I think, those can be cute, right? they're a
[00:12:28] little preppy. They're okay. Well, you never
[00:12:31] But
[00:12:31] Heather Bell: I- like not my aesthetic
[00:12:34] Mallory Lee: I
[00:12:35] don't have
[00:12:35] Shannon Curran: on you. I've seen you in a golf tee. I've seen you in a little golf shirt. They do look cute on you.
[00:12:39] Mallory Lee: Oh, well thanks. But yeah, it just down to the swag I think is a great point. And, you know, the socks, we're in like the era of tech socks. and they're always men's socks that are like and long, and a lady would never wear them. I just give them to the kids now 'cause they think they're fun
[00:12:59] Heather Bell: [00:13:00] Same.
[00:13:00] Shannon Curran: And it sounds
[00:13:01] Heather Bell: today with from, a previous company that are like tall tech socks like covered in the logo
[00:13:07] Shannon Curran: And it's what, it's some of the stuff that sounds silly, but it is what builds inclusion, right? Like, if you can't see yourself, it feels almost as if like you don't, you're not appreciated or seen in the culture if like there's no way for you to be seen in like the visuals of the, of the space.
[00:13:23] And we've talked a lot about remote work on this show, and I think you just mentioned that created a lot of, it felt like equity for you, in your role. So have you always, have you exclusively become remote? were you not remote when you had little kids? Like, what was that like, like for
[00:13:38] Heather Bell: Yeah.
[00:13:39] Um, so yeah, exclusively remote now. It was, an active choice during COVID, because we wanted to be, we wanted to be in an area where I could give my kids what I call, like, the idyllic American childhood, where they can go outside. They literally run out. We live on a cul-de-sac.
[00:13:59] I could not [00:14:00] give them that in the Bay Area and see them, because it's too expensive.
[00:14:04]
[00:14:04] you need a million bucks for an entry-level house, and then you're both commuting. So then childcare, when we left, it was gonna be, I think, 3,200 a child. so you know, that's
[00:14:18] mortgage
[00:14:20] Shannon Curran: Well, that's how much ... Yeah, that makes sense. That is crazy. That is $7,000 a month. Holy crap.
[00:14:28] Heather Bell: And you, you
[00:14:29] Mallory Lee: a
[00:14:29] lot
[00:14:30] Heather Bell: I was, I was in-person. I was in-person five days a week, and so was my husband. so then I'm only seeing my kids from like 5:30 or 6:00 until bedtime, and they're going to be in the office by 9:00. You'd have to drop them off no later than 8:00 because of traffic. so yeah, r- remote work, it was something that will I now sacrifice roles?
[00:14:55] Yeah. In this recent job hunt, I can't work for any big shiny logo, [00:15:00] any AI, like specifically AI company. They want you in office. And where I live, I could do it, but again, I would not... I would just not see my kids because the commute would be fairly brutal to either New York or Philadelphia.
[00:15:14] so for me, I don't wanna be at a company that needs me to be there, and I'm doing right now just fine and at places where people have the same outside of work values as me. And that makes a big difference in terms of, like my daughter is in first grade, and I wanna go be a lunchtime volunteer, not every day, but I'm gonna go maybe once a month. I wanna be a
[00:15:40] room parent. I couldn't do that if I was in an office five days a week. And people at my company understand that, and they block their calendars, whether or not they have kids, for the things that matter to them outside of work so that they can then be their best selves when they are at work
[00:15:56] Mallory Lee: Yeah. That's so good. [00:16:00] I posted about the whole calendar blocking thing this week, and
[00:16:04] Shannon Curran: You went viral in Mal
[00:16:07] Mallory Lee: I don't know what viral is these days. I don't
[00:16:09] Shannon Curran: Over 100,000 views on LinkedIn is viral. I would call that
[00:16:13] Mallory Lee: Is it? See, I think of like million impressions as viral, but
[00:16:17] Shannon Curran: Well, sorry, not all of us are gonna get there. So
[00:16:20] I'm not I'm not either. I have no plans of getting a million impressions unless, I don't want a million people to know who I am. I have no interest in That But what if they're listening to our show? What if they're listening to our
[00:16:34] Great. Know who Mallory is, don't know who I am.
[00:16:38] Mallory Lee: wanted to revisit something you said, Shannon, and
[00:16:41] you mentioned that A lot of times you're the only woman in the exec team in the room, right? And you don't want to abandon that mission because how else are people gonna see that it's possible, right?
[00:16:54] Shannon Curran: But I also think that if you are in that room, it's because you are valued.
[00:16:58] Mallory Lee: You don't end [00:17:00] there if people don't value what you're gonna bring to the table. So, you know, even if they're not doing a good job of getting like a 50% female leadership team, they still value you enough to make sure you're there. And so I think that, building on that and increasing the value and showing them, much that helps the overall process and the overall effort, I think is a good thing to keep doing.
[00:17:25] It doesn't make me wanna like run away
[00:17:28] Shannon Curran: Yeah. And I, it's interesting, I t- I spoke on a panel last week, about, influence and personal brand. Very funny. and I was like, "I don't know, guys." but I often do get people, and I'm sure more people think this than tell me too, which is a really interesting thing to think about when you're, like, a public person on the internet, is, do you ever worry that people aren't gonna wanna hire you?
[00:17:49] And Mal, I know you've gotten this before too. It's like, because you're s- you're, like, so open about flexibility with your kids, or you're so open about how you, prioritize [00:18:00] other things other than work, or you have... And I'm like, "No, I'm just good at my job." Like, that is, uh, like I don't know. There's no other way to get around that other than being extremely proficient.
[00:18:10] Do I feel a lot of pressure that I always have to be maybe 50% better than everyone else in the room? Maybe. I'm really hard on myself if I make mistakes. I'm like, it's not acceptable to me, whereas it's interesting when I feel like people think about, deadlines as suggestions, and I'm like, "That's not a suggestion.
[00:18:27] Like, just do your job." and I think that there is something in there about me feeling more pressure, but also if someone doesn't want to work with me because they are concerned I'm not gonna be focused enough on their business because I, like, have a life outside of them, or, like, because I create content on the internet, or because I do anything else, it's like, I don't wanna work with them anyway.
[00:18:47] and there's enough people that see value in the things that I do, like you were saying, Mallory, that, like,do you want your business to grow? Like, I'll do that. or you can talk to people that have worked with me before.
[00:18:55] And I don't, like, there is a little bit of swag in that, of having to be like, "This is [00:19:00] who I am, and, like, I am happy to be that person. And if it doesn't align with your values, chill, cool. Then I don't align with your values, and that's cool." Like, I would rather us know that before we get into working together.
[00:19:10] I don't know, Heather, I know you were saying in this recent job search you were very thoughtful about remote work and about flexibility with your family. Like, did you ever feel like you couldn't talk about that in your interviews or anything like that?
[00:19:22] Heather Bell: I do think it's an interesting dance. I would say before I had my second, did not want anybody to know I was married or that I had kids in an interview. And legally you're not, uh, you're not allowed to ask, but a lot of times, it comes up in conversations. this was probably the first round where, yeah, I was open about it.
[00:19:44] And, I was very open about my deal breakers of like, I have to have these things in
[00:19:50] this next role, which, um, Rebecca Grimes, who you had on, actually helped me shape those. and one of them was, yeah, a company where not only I wasn't gonna be the only [00:20:00] woman in leadership, but I wasn't gonna be the only parent.
[00:20:02] Um, m- what I had seen most, and then I have a question for you, Shannon, uh, is that not only was I the only woman, but I was the only person with a, with two working parents, uh,
[00:20:16] in, in
[00:20:17] Mallory Lee: Ooh, that's the best
[00:20:19] Shannon Curran: Big one.
[00:20:20] Heather Bell: very different dynamic when you're on with somebody and, they don't understand having to take the kid to the doctor's appointment or,
[00:20:29] Shannon Curran: Or wanting to.
[00:20:31] Heather Bell: yeah.
[00:20:31] Shannon Curran: just having to, but like wanting to,
[00:20:34] Heather Bell: Yeah.
[00:20:34] and that is something like I hold onto it with like such a firm death grip of like, my husband would happily do it. We're, we're definitely 50/50, and often I travel a lot, so he takes on more. doctor is something like I will not let go of. I need to be there with the physician under- understanding exactly what's happening.
[00:20:51] Shannon Curran: What percentile is my child? Like, there's really
[00:20:54] Heather Bell: yeah, perfect are they?
[00:20:56] Shannon Curran: How wonderful. How much better are they than everyone else's kids?
[00:20:59] Mallory Lee: I'm [00:21:00] here to get the compliments of the good job I've done.
[00:21:02] Shannon Curran: a...
[00:21:02] Heather Bell: Exactly. I am curious though, Shannon, because, I think I got so badly burned in previous roles that now I'm like, "I can't be a torch bearer." I've tried making room for
[00:21:12] Shannon Curran: No, I get it
[00:21:14] Heather Bell: I can't be the only woman in the room anymore because I'm exhausted
[00:21:17] Shannon Curran: That's fair
[00:21:18] Heather Bell: So how... Like, what do you say to, yeah, to women who, like, are feeling that way and maybe are, I can't be the only one in the room anymore"?
[00:21:27] Shannon Curran: And you shouldn't have to be. Like, that's the thing. It's not our job to teach people to be better. I just have the energy at this point in my life to do it. So that's why I'm willing to do it. I'm also kind of a pain in the ass. Like,It's a part of my personality. but I also, I think this swag did come with starting my own company, like being my own boss, knowing that, I have diversity in my revenue, I have diversity in my income, so if I decide to not work with a client, like I have, that's one-third or one-fourth of my income instead of my entire, my entire livelihood, right?
[00:21:59] So [00:22:00] it is very different for me and I think I ... That's why I'm ... I remind myself all the time that, like, it's a part of my journaling, it's a part of all the things I do, is like there's a purpose for the things that I'm doing that is greater than, shareholder value, right? Like, there is something about this that, matters to me of, It's funny, this panel last week, it's just like right on the top of my head. They asked me what is a piece of advice you'd give to people that want to start to build a personal brand or be more influential in their jobs, and it's like every time I question myself, I would say,
[00:22:30] who did I need 10 years ago? Who did Shannon need 10 years ago, and can I be that person for whoever that girl is, right? Growing and be- and, like, in this j- in this world. I wish I had seen someone that would, lead in a way that she felt was authentic to her, that felt, really aligned, that could deal with when it doesn't work, and, like, just have to be confident that it's not her.
[00:22:52] It's just the wrong situation, right? so get yourself into the right one. But I can totally understand that, it's not everybody's jo- it's not your [00:23:00] job. I say this often to people that are different to me. It's like it's not your job to teach me about who you are. It's like it's my job to learn, and it's my job to try and do it when I can, right?
[00:23:08] And also, you're in sales, Heather. That's harder. I feel like sales is harder than marketing, I think. talk about a boys' world. that is ... I don't even know h- I'm always in awe of people that run sale- like women that run sales orgs. It is,
[00:23:22] Mallory Lee:
[00:23:22] Shannon Curran: I feel like culturally really different
[00:23:25] Mallory Lee: Shannan, you need to, you need to go talk to your puppy
[00:23:29] Shannon Curran: Oh, my dogs.
[00:23:31] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:23:32] You need to go talk to them
[00:23:34] Shannon Curran: Tell them to get a life. Tell them to get a life. Okay, I'm gonna... I'll be right back
[00:23:39] Mallory Lee: We're doing all the outtakes today. It's my favorite
[00:23:42] Heather Bell: My dog is so old now that I feel like she can't be bothered to bark, but when she does, she's very passionate.
[00:23:49] Mallory Lee: What kind of dog do you have?
[00:23:51] Heather Bell: She's a mini Labradoodle, so she's 28 pounds and, yeah, like a little curly, curly lady
[00:23:58] Mallory Lee: That's so fun.
[00:23:59] Heather Bell: [00:24:00] Your house is so clean, I cannot imagine that you have pets
[00:24:03] Mallory Lee: Oh, thank you. I do have a dog. I've got, one dog. She's a Vizsla. Her name's Penny. So she's like 45 pounds.
[00:24:14] she loves to sit on my desk. she jumps onto the desk
[00:24:21] Heather Bell: Oh
[00:24:21] Mallory Lee: sits here with me. So it's funny because she's, not shy about it, and she'll interrupt any call that she can to come up and sit next to me.
[00:24:32] out the front window here is, the street right in front of my face. And so
[00:24:37] likes to look out and see what's going on and, all of that, and it's just, her little fun quirk that she does. funny. it reminds me of something that you were talking about before. So being flexible and upfront or really transparent about, who you are, what's important to you, and all these things in the interview process.
[00:24:56] I totally err all the way on the other side of, [00:25:00] like, I'm gonna overshare because I want you to, like, want you to want 100% of it, who I am, you know? And I
[00:25:08] want any surprises.
[00:25:10] so in this most recent adventure where I was getting interviewed with Zipline, I needed to do my, presentation to the exec team and stuff, and the first slide of my presentation was, what you should know about me.
[00:25:25] And so it was, a picture of my family, like me and my kids, and I talked about that. And then it was a picture of Penny on my desk, and I said, "There's a dog on my desk. you need to know that." Because if you're the kind of people who can't handle a dog just, sailing across the screen to be on the desk and, like, distract everybody from a call, then I don't wanna work here.
[00:25:47] You know? Like, that's just... And everybody loves her, so it turned out for the best. Every time she joins our calls, people love it
[00:25:55] Heather Bell: Dog on the desk is a huge green flag. Yes, please[00:26:00]
[00:26:01] My dogs are now in the yard. So I just literally just opened the back door and let them out. I was like, "Figure it out, guys." The Amazon driver, that's who that was. It was arch nemesis was in the front of the house, How dare you honestly, it's really something else. my dogs are barkers, like major barkers, it is.
[00:26:18] Shannon Curran: My son will often say, "Mari and Maisy, calm down. Calm down." like, "They're not calming down. They're not calming down." I'm like, "I know. Tell me about it, dude." I'm like, I'm overstimulated, two kids, two dogs. I'm like, "This is crazy." When we go on a family walk, people look at us like we're insane.
[00:26:36] They're like, "What is happening there?
[00:26:39] Mallory Lee: Well, because they're big dogs.
[00:26:41] Shannon Curran: they're huge. Yeah,
[00:26:42] Mallory Lee: They're big dogs, yeah. I think that's the difference
[00:26:45] Shannon Curran: yeah, and they're like wolves that we brought inside. They're, like, classically, like... Every time I joke that they're misbehaved, I'm like, "They're not even supposed to be in here." You know what I mean? they're, like, not,
[00:26:55] Heather Bell: We did this them
[00:26:57] Shannon Curran: Yeah, exactly. I don't think they're domesticated. Like, [00:27:00] they're... We rescued both our dogs from down South, which is, a very common thing in the Northeast, and, so they're both just, black dogs. to describe them, like Mallory's met them, they're, like, one really big one, one kinda medium-big one, and they're just, two, just, like, running around.
[00:27:14] They're, like, bully breed pit mix, like shepherd mix dogs, and they just are... They're our pride and joy. I love them very much, but they are,
[00:27:23] Mallory Lee: I think people call that a super mutt, right?
[00:27:25] Shannon Curran: That's there.
[00:27:26] Mallory Lee: Yeah, I love it. They're the best
[00:27:28] Shannon Curran: is. My big one definitely is. my smaller one, she's like husky pit. That's mostly what she is. She loves the snow. she is very...
[00:27:35] But that also means she's an escape artist, so I'm hoping that they haven't escaped the fence when I go downstairs. If they have, I'll call them back. But they're stoked.
[00:27:44] Heather Bell: curious, you had the dogs before the kids?
[00:27:48] Shannon Curran: Yes. This is a, yeah, hot topic. I feel like on everyone saying they, nothing will change when I have kids. I love my dogs so much, and your dogs do [00:28:00] become pretty overstimulating when you have kids, um, I found. But I still love them, but
[00:28:05] Heather Bell: I just remember feeling, especially when I had the second, like there are too many things to keep alive. Like I just feel so bad, like this dog is not getting any attention and all of my houseplants were dying. I'm like, "This is too much." I took on too many live things
[00:28:21] Shannon Curran: I had this exact thought this morning as like Willa is crying. I don't know what was going on. She was just like in a weird mood. She wanted to be held all morning. Sebastian's like, "I want a snack." And then I need to feed the dogs before we get out of the house. No one has shoes on. I have to let them out.
[00:28:36] And I was just like, "Ugh." Like, I was like, "I have created a monster. Like, what is this?" Like, I have ... I feel like we've just come out of the fog a little of, so I have a 15-month-old as of today. She's officially a toddler. I know. And I'll have a three-year-old in a few weeks, and I feel like we're finally getting to the point, like the cadence of like all right, like can take the dogs on walks.
[00:28:56] Can ... I took Marty for a run yesterday. He's way too fast. That's the only problem, like [00:29:00] is we do not pace at the same pace. Well, he's like in the eight-minute mile group. I'm like the 10-minute mile group. I need him to chill.
[00:29:06] Mallory Lee: he pull you? ...
[00:29:08] Shannon Curran: Yes. Like, it was like being mushed. I was like I gotta, um ... But yeah, it is really hard, to keep them all in line and feel like you're giving enough attention to all of them.
[00:29:20] I totally get that. Yeah, I feel that way
[00:29:23] Heather Bell: We have shifted. It's gotten a tiny bit better because of the 10-year-old. Now they take on the responsibility. They feed the dog.
[00:29:30] Mallory Lee:
[00:29:30] Heather Bell: the little one, my six-year-old, waters the plants. So it gets better,
[00:29:34] just takes a long time.
[00:29:37] Mallory Lee: I try to get
[00:29:37] Shannon Curran: to water the plants and then the plants die, so it's fine. So Maria waters the plants
[00:29:44] Mallory Lee: no, she does not. No.
[00:29:46] Shannon Curran: Oh, got it.
[00:29:47] Mallory Lee: No. Um, okay, so h- I have a question. I remember back in the day, right, married, getting our first dog, all these things, there was the big debate, like [00:30:00] getting a dog prepare you for having kids?
[00:30:04] And I think there's a lot of polarizing perspectives here, right? So I wanna know which camp you guys are in. Is getting a dog when you're young good practice for having children later? Yes or no
[00:30:17] Heather Bell: I think no. Because you can leave that dog and go to the bar, and you can leave that dog and go to dinner, and you can leave the dog. You can leave it. Like,it's much easier to get somebody to watch the dog than a baby. I will say it allows you to see what kind of a partner your partner might
[00:30:37] Shannon Curran: Yes.
[00:30:39] Heather Bell: responsibility-wise. Like, are you willing to get up and take the dog out in the middle of the night if they have to go to the bathroom or do the walk? It is not apples to apples because parenting is... a lot.
[00:30:52] Mallory Lee: What do you
[00:30:54] think, Shannon? I think there's, I think it creates a shared language around caretaking, which is, [00:31:00] like, cool. I
[00:31:01] academic of you. That's a very academic answer
[00:31:05] Shannon Curran: Sorry. I'm like, today is a day. Like, I have, have, so, I've, it's been a day. new CEO at one of my clients, I feel like I've been very, like, zoned in. I, I do think it does that.
[00:31:15] It helps you, create this, you're both caring for a thing. But I will say, I, even noticing the difference in my, in how I parent. Like, I can resent my dogs much easier than my kids. Like, there is, like, something about that, and I know my husband can too. Like, it's different to wake up in the middle of the night for a dog than it is for your baby, right?
[00:31:35] Like, who you care so, like, it's just a different level. I do think it's good practice in communication around caring for a living creature. that I do think is good. but it definitely is not, like, you don't have the same, feeling around one or the other. I still love my dogs.
[00:31:49] I'm so grateful that my kids are growing up with dogs. Like, I'm so glad they are. Like, it's the first thing my toddler talks about every morning is, "Where's Marty and Macy? where's Marty and Macy?" You know. but yeah, so I feel like, what do you [00:32:00] think, Mal? Did it help you?
[00:32:02] Mallory Lee: I don't know. I fall on the other end of the spectrum where I think it's a good thing. I think it can help you understand what life is like when it's not just the two of you.
[00:32:12] And I think that puppies are needy and you have to
[00:32:17] on how to raise them, right?
[00:32:19] Shannon Curran: I don't think I could ever have a puppy again. I don't know. That, that almost took me out. That almost took me out.
[00:32:25] Mallory Lee: I know. I think if we ever get another dog, I'm gonna like adopt a senior dog. but yeah, I don't know. I think for us it was a good first step. I feel like it prepared us for being parents, in a good way.
[00:32:38] whether it's trying to figure out what to do about them. And then I remember once we had Grayson, we had, you know, one baby and one dog, and I remember thinking, "The baby's even easier because I can take it with me
[00:32:56] literally anywhere," right?
[00:32:58] And so I don't have [00:33:00] to go back home a
[00:33:02] certain time To let it out.
[00:33:04] Exactly. So like with Penny, we'll be out somewhere and it's like, "Okay, we gotta go home, let the dog out."
[00:33:11] So I don't know, I think there's like and pros and cons like on each side. But I used to tell my peop- my friends who were like younger who didn't have kids yet, like, "Oh, a dog will help you see what, what life can be like when you have other little things that you're responsible for." It's funny.
[00:33:30] Shannon Curran: That's funny. Heather, is there anything ... So I know you've been listening to the show. Is there anything you've heard someone talk about that you're like, "I need to get on the show 'cause I need to talk about this thing"? I wanna make sure that you like feel like you've gotten your, like your like platform to be able to talk about the thing that matters most to you as a full-stack mom.
[00:33:49] Heather Bell: one thing that, I do wanna talk about is taking the, the things you learn in the corporate world and applying it to advocating for your kids.
[00:33:59] because th- [00:34:00] there is an art form, in making sure that your kid gets what they need because depending on where they go to school, like my children go to school in a large and often controversial, school district.
[00:34:13] we're on the news a lot, unfortunately.
[00:34:15] So you have to really know how to work the system to get your kids what they need, and context behind that is my son was diagnosed with ADHD in second grade, and there's a lot that goes into getting them through the diagnosis so that they get the plan, set up and that so that the teachers do the things that they need to do to support this child so that they
[00:34:37] can learn.
[00:34:38] my son brilliant. I say this objectively. He's in the advanced classes now, but that's only because we fought to have his diagnosis considered in his education plan.
[00:34:51] And also lucky, again, that I work from home, and I could go, and I could be in the school and talk to the counselor and talk to the [00:35:00] principal and talk to the teachers and do his evaluations.
[00:35:03] A lot of parents don't have that flexibility. But it is an art form because you have to apply enough pressure that you get what you want, but also be nice enough that they wanna work with you.
[00:35:15] it is very much like executive leadership where I led with data, and I showed, "Here's all the work that I did to then bring this to the table, so that ideally we can work together really easily."
[00:35:28] the prime example is sales and marketing can be very contentious. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be a fight. but you need to, as a parent, do your part and know, know what you should be bringing to the table too.
[00:35:41] Shannon Curran: Yeah, it's all about That's great right? And that is the thing that we, that we do f- like, and I feel like this all the time. I know Melissa, who gets a shout-out on this podcast all the time, dealt with that with her son's autism diagnosis. And it's, we think all the time about, like, all these people that English isn't their first [00:36:00] language, or they don't have the systems, like, training that we have, and, like, how difficult that must be to navigate all of this stuff.
[00:36:08] I know there's a lot of kids in my son's school right now that are going through the, like, I think it's what I ... It's, ABA process. There's, like, a lot of, like, diagnoses that's really hard to get before the age of five, right? But they need a lot of support, and it looks, yeah, it's exhausting.
[00:36:23] Like, I think, but amazing that you're able to see the value in using those skills for your kids. Like, what a amazing benefit for them, that they're getting the care and the, the support that they need.
[00:36:34] Heather Bell: I will say also having a community has helped me with this. when my son started school, I organized a weekly... Not weekly, monthly, happy hour for all the moms in that grade. So then we could all get together and talk, and
[00:36:50] Mallory Lee: The whole grade?
[00:36:51] Heather Bell: them. we had a decent showing. I would say in a class there are generally 60 kids, uh, grade level.
[00:36:59] [00:37:00] Um, the busiest one we had had maybe, like, 22 people, uh,
[00:37:05] to it, so a decent,
[00:37:06] Mallory Lee: That's awesome. Yeah
[00:37:09] Heather Bell: but in that, we then learned, "Hey, what are you going through? How can I help you? maybe you have a good, psychologist that I should be working with," because children's mental healthcare is very hard, to
[00:37:22] Shannon Curran: So hard
[00:37:23] Heather Bell: trust.
[00:37:24] Mallory Lee:
[00:37:24] Heather Bell: so yeah, leaning in there, too, and, learning, but then also helping folks who are maybe in a different place in their journey.
[00:37:32] Mallory Lee: Now do like a happy hour.
[00:37:35] Shannon Curran: You should
[00:37:36] Mallory Lee: I'm inspired. No, I'm not capable of doing that, but,
[00:37:39] Shannon Curran: You should try it
[00:37:40] Mallory Lee: I just learned last night, this is such a sidebar. Last night was like the parent info night at the school. So the back to school night is like an ice cream social that's for the kids.
[00:37:52] And then there's a separate parent back to school night where the kids don't go and you just like go sit in the room and listen to the teacher for a half hour. [00:38:00] so we were doing that last night at the school and I found out for the first time that there's a website where you can go find kids and the parents and the contact information all the people at the school.
[00:38:12] And I like, "What in the world?" Like there's so many people's phone numbers that I've needed or wanted because the kids wanna have a play date or they want to invite someone to a birthday party. And I had no idea that you could just go to this website and find everybody and I'm, texting everybody and their brother to try to find someone's number.
[00:38:30] Like they're probably like,
[00:38:32] "Mallory, go to the website," you know? so yeah, I'm still learning how to get organized and some of those things but
[00:38:40] Heather Bell: Our directory, like our directory is similar, and we have someone in our elementary school who was an American Idol, and they opt out every year. And it's like American Idol is so old at this point. They were like on one of the early seasons. And then I'm like, "Nobody cares. now your kids can't come on the play dates because you won't put your phone number in [00:39:00] here."
[00:39:00] Shannon Curran: It's like you're a, you're a Z-list celebrity. Like please put your phone over on this thing. Like
[00:39:05] Heather Bell: knows who you are
[00:39:06] Shannon Curran: Yeah, that is so funny.
[00:39:08] Mallory Lee: I'm not gonna try to you.
[00:39:10] Shannon Curran: we're actually over time, so I think we should do our save of the week really quickly. so Heather, if you've listened to the show, you know the save of the week, right?
[00:39:17] do you have something that's helped you become a better parent this week, working parent?
[00:39:22] Heather Bell: Yes.
[00:39:24] Mallory Lee: Yay.
[00:39:24] What is it?
[00:39:26] Heather Bell: I hired professional organizers. It was my
[00:39:29] Shannon Curran: Oh my God
[00:39:30] Heather Bell: present from my husband, and it has been the
[00:39:33] biggest save because we had our first week of school, and we have not had a breakdown over where's my backpack? Where are my shoes? Where's my lunch pail? Because now everything has a place. I realize that's like, it's a big investment, and that's something that, I would do it a, a hundred times I would do it again
[00:39:52] Shannon Curran: So jealous. I want to do this so badly
[00:39:55] So my save is the Hot, is the Hot Wheels potty. he loves it. he's like, "It's a car. It has [00:40:00] wheels." Um, it is like,
[00:40:02] Mallory Lee: Oh, it has wheels?
[00:40:03] Shannon Curran: Yeah, it does. It, th- they don't move. They don't move. Thank
[00:40:06] Mallory Lee: Oh, I'm picturing him like rolling around on the potty. Sorry. Okay.
[00:40:10] Shannon Curran: no, no, no, no. It, like, has fake wheels on the back.
[00:40:12] no, I think it's more, like, the commentary around making hard things fun, which is, like, all of parenting with little kids. It's like, when they're having a tantrum, the only thing that makes it better is making them laugh. Like, when they're having a... Which is, really hard as a parent, when you're, like, trying to regulate your own nervous system to be like, "I have to be silly and funny right now," but that's what three-year-olds need and, and they, we need to, like, bring joy to, like, things that are difficult.
[00:40:35] Mallory Lee: So we've been talking for days about, "Guess what we're doing this weekend?" And he goes, "Potty training on the car." And I was like, "Yeah." And, like, we are, like, really amping it up. And so I think that's my save this week is, just a little bit of whimsy maybe, and fun into the things that are hard and challenging, That's cool. Um, what's my save? Let's see. the school offers [00:41:00] this thing where you can buy the school supplies online, and they put
[00:41:04] and they, like, put them on your child's desk before the ice cream social night, and they're just there waiting for you.
[00:41:10] Heather Bell: That's amazing
[00:41:12] Mallory Lee: Yeah, this is the first year that I did it for all three boys, and it-- Last year, I wanted Cohen to be able to go get his kindergarten supplies, like rite of passage. So this year, no, they all three got the box. And it's a save because you don't have to think about it. You don't even look at the list.
[00:41:29] You just pay the man, and the stuff shows up. But I still allowed them to pick out, their own special kind of school supply to get them excited for the year, and Grayson wanted mechanical pencils. And last night when we went to the parent info night, he, wrote us a note and left it on his desk, and it was really sweet.
[00:41:49] It was like, "Check out this in the room, and check out that in the room." And then at the end of the note, it said, "P.S. Mommy, thank you for my mechanical pencils. [00:42:00] I love them so much. Love, Grayson." I just
[00:42:04] my God. I- it was so heartwarming, and, I'll save that note and probably look at it in 20 years and be a puddle on the ground.
[00:42:13] But little things. Kids just love the little things, and it reminded me of that.
[00:42:19] Shannon Curran: I love
[00:42:19] that That's a save that it's such a random thing that makes such a big difference to them and you never know what it's gonna be? But it's never the expensive thing like Disney or whatever. It's never those
[00:42:33] yeah. It's always like the, yeah, he, uh, we go to the dollar store once every two weeks, the store, and he gets to pick out two things. And it's always, this little horse that he picks out that he, like, sleeps with for three months. You're like, "This is like..." I love it. I love it.
[00:42:49] Mallory Lee: Oh.
[00:42:50] Shannon Curran: gals.
[00:42:51] This has been lovely. Appreciate you.
[00:42:53] Mallory Lee: All right. We got it done
[00:42:54] Shannon Curran: Heather, it was so nice to meet you
[00:42:56] Heather Bell: Yeah, so nice to meet you both. And ooh, you're in for such a treat with [00:43:00] Jess. She's incredible
[00:43:01] Shannon Curran: I know, like we're getting the whole team. I love this
[00:43:04] Mallory Lee: know. I love it. thank you. Thank you, Heather. Have an awesome weekend and, uh,
[00:43:09] we'll be in touch.
[00:43:11] Heather Bell: Bye
[00:43:12] Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms,
[00:43:14] Speaker: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:43:24] Shannon Curran: Mal, your house is looking particularly pristine today.
[00:43:27] Mallory Lee: Is it? Yeah, uh, sh- you have, like, the beige room of my dreams.
[00:43:34] Well, Maria is here, but like she can't come in here 'cause I'm doing this. And so I actually vacuumed this room this morning all by myself
[00:43:42] Shannon Curran: Wow, I'm so proud of you. It's really, women in STEM.
[00:43:46] Mallory Lee: Women in of you.