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Host Nick Lenzi discusses the book Atomic Habits by James Clear with guest Amber Walker, Director of Engagement at The Bible Chapel in Pittsburgh, PA.
Show Notes
Promo: Making Time
You have the same 24 hours in your day as the most accomplished people in the world. So why doesn't it feel that way? Follow along on this special 6 episode series as we take a look at how to make more time. By following biblical principles and taking a look at what you really want, Making Time shares the secret to having all the time you need... with a little help from some friends.
Learn more and download group guides at https://lumivoz.com/making-time/
For questions, comments, or sharing your tips on how to make more time, reach out to makingtime@lumivoz.com
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You have the same 24 hours in your day as the most accomplished people in the world. So why doesn't it feel that way? Follow along on this special 6 episode series as we take a look at how to make more time. By following biblical principles and taking a look at what you really want, Making Time shares the secret to having all the time you need... with a little help from some friends.
Learn more and download group guides at https://lumivoz.com/making-time/
For questions, comments, or sharing your tips on how to make more time, reach out to makingtime@lumivoz.com
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Why are habits the best way to build consistency inside your groups? Join us for this month's episode of Reading Lenz as host Nick Lenzi is joined by Amber Walker to breakdown the New Times #1 Best Seller Atomic Habits by James Clear. This book has sold over 5 million copies, tune into to hear what you should know about this book and the takeaways we are bringing into our groups.
Episode Highlights:
Episode Highlights:
Atomic Habits Intro (8:35)
Difference between a habit and a goal (12:40)
Make it obvious (17:30)
Make it attractive (21:50)
Make it easy (28:40)
Make it satisfying (37:05)
Lightning Round (42:00)
More About Our Guest Amber Walker:
Amber is the Director of Engagement at The Bible Chapel in Pittsburgh, PA where she has been for 2 ½ years. Prior to moving home to Pittsburgh, she was working in New York City doing marketing for American Express. When she's not creating community, you can find her cheering on the Steelers and seeking out good eats around town.
About the Host Nick Lenzi:
More About Our Guest Amber Walker:
Amber is the Director of Engagement at The Bible Chapel in Pittsburgh, PA where she has been for 2 ½ years. Prior to moving home to Pittsburgh, she was working in New York City doing marketing for American Express. When she's not creating community, you can find her cheering on the Steelers and seeking out good eats around town.
About the Host Nick Lenzi:
Nick has been helping people belong as the Community Director at Hoboken Grace Church in Hoboken, NJ since 2009. Prior to joining Hoboken Grace full time, he was an analyst on Wall Street at an investment bank. He is also the host of the show Reading Lenz which airs on the Group Talk Podcast on the 4th Wednesday of each month.
Creators & Guests
What is Reading Lenz With Nick Lenzi?
Small group discussions with Nick Lenzi and guests. Applying practical tips and lessons from other areas of ministry, each month Nick shares insights for your church's group ministry.
00;00;01;05 - 00;00;21;03
Jason
Welcome to Group Talk for Shows, one podcast from the Small Group Network focusing on topics relevant to small group ministries. Whether you're in a church of 100 or 10,000, whether you're a volunteer staff, we want to support, encourage and equip you to lead well. So relax, listen and enjoy reading lessons with Nick Lindsey.
00;00;21;20 - 00;00;38;13
Nick Lenzi
Hey, Small Group Network. Welcome back to another episode of Reading Lens. We're so glad you chose the time to hang out with us. Here's how Reading Lens works. Each month I have with us a guest who is also a small point person. Share with you insights from books we are reading and what our takeaways were and how we plan to operate them into our lives.
00;00;38;24 - 00;00;48;07
Nick Lenzi
Leadership for our small groups. I'm excited to introduce you to a guest, and by the end of this podcast, I know that you're going to be a big fan of hers as well. Welcome to the show. Amber Walker.
00;00;48;13 - 00;00;51;19
Amber Walker
Hi everyone. I am really looking forward to our conversation today.
00;00;51;20 - 00;01;07;11
Nick Lenzi
So some of my excitement is personal because I'm just thrilled to have another Giddens are on the podcast. For those who might not know the term, you guys are just another name for a person who's from Pittsburgh, and Amber is currently the Director of engagement at the Bible Chapel, where she has worked for two and a half years.
00;01;07;11 - 00;01;10;22
Nick Lenzi
Amber I know your story. Why don't you walk us through how you arrived at this role?
00;01;10;22 - 00;01;30;18
Amber Walker
Yeah, I love to. You know, my heart has always had a burden for two main things. One, connecting the disconnected kind of going after that person on the sidelines, the one that's not involved, and also being a community. I think this is how we're wired and how Scripture calls us to community right so to a special burdens of mine.
00;01;30;21 - 00;01;50;10
Amber Walker
So with these burden, this is often led me to volunteering in my churches and connections ministry and small groups ministry. They've done that just naturally as a volunteer and being a part of the serving aspect of our church. But about four years ago, I was living in New York City, as you know, at the time specifically Hoboken. Specifically living in Hoboken.
00;01;50;11 - 00;02;18;11
Amber Walker
Yes, working in New York City, you know, the extension, the sixth borough of New York, but moved from Pittsburgh to go live there and 20, 15 was there until 2019, you know, as rising up in my career, doing great things, feeling excited about that, but was feeling a little bit of a sense of fulfillment in that role. And so I started thinking about and just praying about Lord, what's next for me and really just looking at like God, how have you widened truly and how can I be operating out of my truth?
00;02;18;11 - 00;02;44;02
Amber Walker
Gifting journaled a prayer. So I couldn't deny that I prayed it very specific. Asked the Lord God, show me how you wired me and would you please open up a door that would give me an opportunity to operate out of that gifting and bring the glory back to you is less than a week later that I got a text from somebody on staff at the Bible Chapel, the church that I had kind of grown up in my faith in in Pittsburgh that said, Hey, Amber, we have a role for you.
00;02;44;02 - 00;03;06;20
Amber Walker
And literally your gifting on a piece of paper so get ready to move back to Pittsburgh. Couldn't be more clear right now. Thank you for that big sigh, Lord. I just kept walking toward that end. Back in the director of Connections at the Bible Chapel really was asking, Why did they bring me back for this role? Our church had done a congregational wide survey and an echo that we were hearing out of.
00;03;06;20 - 00;03;24;14
Amber Walker
That survey was really hard to get connected here. Right? So I really just that phrase was really just I was mulling around with that bouncing around in my head. What does that mean when somebody says it's hard to get connected here? Right. And so I translate that as it's really hard to find my people here. I don't have my people here.
00;03;24;14 - 00;03;42;04
Amber Walker
I don't have my community. I don't feel part of this body. And in my reflection on my time in church, right when I felt most connected was when I was in community, when I was in community. It was when I was a part of a small group. Right. So I saw that as an opportunity area for us as a church.
00;03;42;04 - 00;03;59;26
Amber Walker
We had small groups at our church, but they were one of many things that we did. So I raised this to our leadership team. You know, the Lord works in mysterious ways for His Holy Spirit. It was already on their radar and their hearts were leaning into you. How do we become a church of small groups, not just a church with small groups?
00;03;59;26 - 00;04;28;12
Amber Walker
And so they invited me into the opportunity to be a part of building that for the Bible Chapel. And so that brings me to my current role in building up this story and leading this ministry with a number of other leaders in our church. It really is a total team effort, but really exciting and year one, we were able to launch about 120 with 1200 members across campuses, which is like the Lord to totally black the work of the team.
00;04;28;12 - 00;04;29;18
Amber Walker
So awesome. Yeah.
00;04;29;24 - 00;04;48;22
Nick Lenzi
So, so Amber and I knew each other from when she was here at Hoboken. Grace and Hoboken, and when she took this role. You reach out to me at some point in that I can't remember when, but we've sort of kept in touch since then. And one of my favorite things about Amber she's always sharing her wins with me and I just like, I'm just like cheering for her on the sidelines.
00;04;48;22 - 00;05;06;01
Nick Lenzi
And, and when I got that one for 100, I was I swear, I like audibly was like, yes, I, I know even at our own church like that, there's, I swear there's like make a good podcast someday. But like, breaking through that barrier is really challenging. So for you to get there, I was so excited for you.
00;05;06;06 - 00;05;26;14
Amber Walker
I love that. Yeah. And like when I say it was a total team effort, like people on the Bible chapel staff, but also people like you, people I had reached out to you that were in my network. I love that about a church, right where a body of believers, many locations, local churches, but the way that I was able to lean on people like you and other people in small group networks.
00;05;26;14 - 00;05;30;27
Amber Walker
Right. Was able to really build that. And again, the Lord blessed it.
00;05;30;27 - 00;05;46;24
Nick Lenzi
Yeah. So it's interesting. I didn't intend to talk about this, but I think one of the things, if you're a small group point person, I'd highly recommend if you're in like first couple of years, so maybe one through three, like reach out to as many people as you want and the worst you're going to hear is like, I don't have the time.
00;05;46;24 - 00;06;03;28
Nick Lenzi
But it's amazing how many of the people who also do this role are willing to share what they've learned and then what those who are here for more than three years like make yourself available for those conversations. So this is one of the things I was trying to do, Amber, when I was reaching out, you know, I could get a little bit of that, like I'm not sure I have anything to share.
00;06;03;28 - 00;06;28;01
Nick Lenzi
And I was like, no, not true. Like, you are totally putting things to work and coming up with new ideas and even working with a sort of a multi-generational church that you have. That is another challenge within itself that that I'm proud that you've been tackling as well. But yeah, I think the secret of the longevity in this role is then giving back away and sharing your time and what you've learned and stuff like that.
00;06;28;01 - 00;06;33;02
Nick Lenzi
And it's really filled me in like you're ten on so I can tell you that for sure.
00;06;33;02 - 00;06;52;17
Amber Walker
And every new person that you talk to, you know, they might be willing to offer up another person you could connect with. So don't be afraid of asking as you set up those coffee chats with people, hey, who's one other person maybe within your network that you would recommend I meet with? People are are surprisingly willing to support and yeah, really good reminder.
00;06;53;05 - 00;07;10;09
Nick Lenzi
Of one of the other phrases I learned from Eddie Mosley long ago. One of the great ways to open the door to those conversations too, is to say, Hey, I'd love to hear what you're learning. And it's been a really good opportunity. It also works with small group leaders and small group members. When you use that same phrase, do you ever want to set up coffee with them or something like, Hey, let's get together?
00;07;10;09 - 00;07;22;27
Nick Lenzi
I'd really love to hear what you're learning. Like people just love to share that stuff of of what's working in their life or their ministry. They'll be for sure. We both have this love for Pittsburgh I'm curious, since returning home, what have you loved about Pittsburgh?
00;07;23;25 - 00;07;44;09
Amber Walker
Well, outside of the fact that I was born and raised here, right? So my family's here. My sister actually just got married and just had a baby. So I have a new niece and love that family here. But also I just love the small town feel of Pittsburgh. But it has that city life, too, right? Granted, in comparison to markets, it's a smaller city.
00;07;44;27 - 00;08;05;11
Amber Walker
It's a little bit more manageable there. But I love that you kind of get the best of both worlds in the small town feel, but also that city vibe and just the architecture and the bridges and the cultural district. Like you have kind of all the things you would want in one place, though. Love that about Pittsburgh. Also, let the food I mean, there's all kinds of different cuisines.
00;08;05;11 - 00;08;15;09
Amber Walker
Pittsburgh's actually pop in as a new kind of foodie type occasion, which is cool. I've seen a lot of new restaurants that have developed here since I lived here prior.
00;08;15;09 - 00;08;19;09
Nick Lenzi
So when I go back home, I need to encourage my parents to take me beyond Chili's. Yeah.
00;08;19;11 - 00;08;30;25
Amber Walker
Oh, my goodness. You got to get at a deli. Even those chains, man. There are so many cool, like new mom and pop restaurants. You get to check out Lawrenceville the strip district. Good ones. You know.
00;08;31;15 - 00;08;39;01
Nick Lenzi
Making Me Too Hungry has been reporting this over lunch of pie, making that even thought. Hey, so we're here to talk about a book, Amber wants to tell me about today's book.
00;08;39;02 - 00;08;58;00
Amber Walker
Yes, I'm super excited. Yes, I love it. The book is Atomic Habit by James Lear. And for me, Nick, I don't know how you stumbled upon this but a friend recommended this book as one of her top five leadership books. And I'm so glad that she did. Soon after I heard about it from her, I downloaded on Audible.
00;08;58;00 - 00;09;02;22
Amber Walker
And, you know, you really like an audio book when you stop every couple of minutes to jot down and.
00;09;04;06 - 00;09;04;16
Nick Lenzi
Carry.
00;09;04;17 - 00;09;18;17
Amber Walker
On. Yeah. Cleaning, doing laundry, like multitask, but like every couple days, stopping, write something down that I was getting out of the book, I eventually had to just stop everything I was doing, sit down, listen to my notes. They knew that this was a good read for me.
00;09;18;17 - 00;09;40;21
Nick Lenzi
I had originally I was a fan of the Craig Rochelle Leadership Podcast, and he had James on before this book even blew up. Like this book. I don't even know what the sales are on this, but it is been out for like five or six years. I just saw it at that target and I was like, Man, for a book to still be at Target after like six years means like it's really making an impact.
00;09;41;02 - 00;10;04;15
Nick Lenzi
So yeah, so that was like my introduction to it. But like I had read this or five years ago and knew I always wanted to do this episode. And I'm really glad you picked up this one because it's a fantastic one. And I thought, you know, hey, let's do this in January because, you know, probably what's happening is, is people had hopes and dreams and goals and they get to the end of it and they're like, it's already the last week of January and we've given up on those things already.
00;10;05;02 - 00;10;30;03
Nick Lenzi
So, hey, this is a second chance right? This is what we're all about here in the church giving second chances out there. So preach. The other thing I love about this book is that if you ever wanted to start the habit of reading, I think this is like an excellent one to start with, because not only is it already about like creating good habits and stopping bad habits, what's really great about this book is it's also like I feel like it's designed to be consumable as well.
00;10;30;03 - 00;10;49;17
Nick Lenzi
So like every chapter is only 10 minutes, which for a guy that reads a lot like I love when it's just like quick chapters because you can just like knock them out. So he kind of really helps you out, like get that, that snowball going with it. But you are right, this is a book that you will write so many notes and you'll wear out highlighters is super practical.
00;10;49;18 - 00;10;58;12
Nick Lenzi
So atomic habits, obviously, that's a mega, you know, and everything. But how does the author define atomic habits and what are they and what are they not?
00;10;58;12 - 00;11;23;21
Amber Walker
Yeah, so broken down. He says atomic means it has a couple of different meanings. So number one, it's extremely small amount of the. Number two, it's the fundamental unit of a larger system. And number three, it's the source of immense energy. So that's how you define the atomic. And then the word habit is a routine or practice performed regularly, an automated response to a specific situation to really and breaking down the definition of atomic habits.
00;11;23;21 - 00;11;35;12
Amber Walker
Right. We can glean the central theme of the book. If you make small, easy changes, backing 1% improvement on top of each other, then you're able to achieve remarkable results in the long run.
00;11;35;17 - 00;12;04;08
Nick Lenzi
Yeah, I really have related to that, especially this might surprise a bunch of listeners that have been listening to podcast. I grew up with a reading disability and so did like Eventually Someday have a podcast that's all on. Reading is pretty crazy, but I think it was when I got out of college, I like was able to start this reading habit and now that I've been doing it for like 14 years, like it is those really tiny things over time because my staff will ask me all the time, like, how do you, how do you knock out so many books?
00;12;04;08 - 00;12;22;11
Nick Lenzi
And it's just like, you know, you just create a consistent habit. So like I read maybe like 20 minutes a day. It doesn't need to be huge. And what's crazy is like over time I've learned like I read so much I've read so fast. Not an easy example for me of habits that are working. There's not many that I would say that aren't aware that I could probably give you a lot of bad habits that I have.
00;12;22;11 - 00;12;23;09
Nick Lenzi
But anyways.
00;12;23;18 - 00;12;26;19
Amber Walker
So you talked about that you for anybody think.
00;12;27;00 - 00;12;43;18
Nick Lenzi
Oh, that was the other beautiful thing about this. Not only does he tell you how to start good ones, he really helps you in breaking the other ones is really great. So, so yeah. So I alluded to this a little bit earlier in the podcast, but you know, he really tries to set out the difference between a habit and a goal.
00;12;43;25 - 00;12;46;08
Nick Lenzi
Could you walk us through what's the difference between a habit and goals?
00;12;46;12 - 00;13;12;02
Amber Walker
Yeah. So I actually I love this question because I think it reveals a fundamental lot the way that we all are. Maybe myself, but I think we all approach achieving results, right? So we set a goal. So goal he defines the one time accomplishment, the accomplish the goal it's done. Whereas a habit is something that practice regularly. It's not a one time thing in my own life and a reflection of this dynamic, right?
00;13;12;10 - 00;13;38;00
Amber Walker
I've accomplished a lot of great goals. Like I run in half marathons that required extensive daily training for months on end to only slip back in the bad habit of skipping daily exercise right. Because once the race is over, the goal has been accomplished. Right? So had I set that habit of daily exercise, right, I might have continued with that versus accomplishing that goal and then losing that that good habit that I needed to accomplish that goal.
00;13;38;05 - 00;13;57;19
Amber Walker
Right? So and I love how he said success is the product of daily habit. And not once in a lifetime transformation. So I think that just kind of flipped on its head how I thought about creating the type of life I want, being the type of person that I want to be right, thinking more long term habits versus short term goals.
00;13;57;19 - 00;14;14;20
Nick Lenzi
Yeah. The thing I wrote down it was to was he says goals are the results you want to achieve and systems are about the processes that lead to those thoughts. So you may have heard this quote before, and I think it's him and it comes from this book, but it's you don't rise to the level of your goals all to the level of distance.
00;14;15;04 - 00;14;30;27
Nick Lenzi
And I love the illustration he gives with that too, because talks about how two football teams are ever sorry talks about like in the NFL, how 32 football teams are all trying to win the Super Bowl. They all have the same goal of winning the Super Bowl. But at the end of the day, only one wins it and it's usually the one who's got the best.
00;14;31;01 - 00;14;37;12
Nick Lenzi
So then winning it also gives the other illustration that everyone who's in the marathon is trying to win the marathon kind of thing.
00;14;37;22 - 00;14;54;22
Amber Walker
It's just that I mean, one thing I did write this down but this that comes to mind as you're setting up as we were setting up this small group ministry this past year, we really did try to think through what is every single thing that we have to do to build this ministry and how are we going to do it.
00;14;54;22 - 00;15;23;06
Amber Walker
Yeah. So as we thought about leader recruiting, as we thought about leader onboarding and training, right? We built out the process. We built workflows to make sure that we were kind of ticking and passing all of these things along the way. So I can truly say that building thinking through what we need and then building the process end to end and then just executing was what helped us to be successful in getting the ministry kind of up and running getting that foundation and the legs underneath of it.
00;15;23;06 - 00;15;40;16
Nick Lenzi
Yeah, yeah. The other thing I was thinking about too, when you were talking about your answer to this too, it's interesting. I think one of the other things where this is really going to come in with small groups and churches is, you know, we really will set out often to make goals and we'll neglect the systems that go in that are a part of it.
00;15;40;16 - 00;16;01;00
Nick Lenzi
And some of that even comes down to metrics and what we are measuring. And sometimes we can start measuring the wrong things. And it's interesting how you were talking about like the successes that the product, the daily habits and how if we if we're able to measure those kind of daily habits. And I was listening to a recent conversation that was really good one with Rick Warren and Carrie Newhouse.
00;16;01;16 - 00;16;28;26
Nick Lenzi
And one of the things he was talking about was, you know, it's I love the phrase he uses, like it's beyond the nickels and noses in other words, like it's not just about like financing and the tenants that comes in because that just like a church can be alive, but it's that it can be unhealthy. And I know that Steve Clayton talks about this a lot as well where when it comes to their groups, they're trying to measure beyond just like how many people are attending, but what are the habits that these groups have established?
00;16;28;26 - 00;16;48;21
Nick Lenzi
What are the baptisms that are coming out of it? What are the ways in which they've been inviting others to be a part of their groups? What are the ways in which they have a thing of how many people are doing the daily devotionals and in other different ways to kind of go with their five purposes? So I love how that is a thing we'll probably get into a little bit later of what it is that creates good habits.
00;16;48;21 - 00;17;05;04
Nick Lenzi
So I mentioned earlier about this book just being really easy to read. One of the things I left out was that he has a really clear outline that makes it easy to follow as we're going along and what he does is he follows this outline. James identified how to build habits and four simple laws, and that's what we're going to dove into today.
00;17;05;04 - 00;17;21;15
Nick Lenzi
So our conversation from here on out are going to be about these four different laws. So why don't we cover these four laws? So the four simple laws are make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy, make it satisfying, and you can use this outline for the habit you want to create. But for today, we're going to put this in the lens of small groups.
00;17;21;15 - 00;17;37;09
Nick Lenzi
I'm sure we're going to give you different ways of like becoming healthy that that kind of tracked with us. But for your purpose, isn't this a small group podcast? We're going to talk about this in the context of small groups. So let's start with make it obvious. What do we mean when we want to make a habit obvious yeah.
00;17;37;09 - 00;17;57;06
Amber Walker
So he talks about in the book, you want to set a specific get really specific around the time and the place that you're trying to incorporate this new habit. One example was he says, After I sit down to dinner, I will say one thing that I'm grateful for that happened today, right? So that's a very specific time place a new habit that you want to implement.
00;17;57;12 - 00;18;20;26
Amber Walker
And this is one of my favorite parts of the book, one of the things that I immediately started implementing in my life. But is this concept called habit. Yes. So, yeah, trying new habits, you old good habits that you already have established. Right. And so I think I heard about this earlier about fun fact this is how I develop the habit of making my bed every day for adulting.
00;18;22;14 - 00;18;47;27
Amber Walker
So, you know, every morning like clockwork, go to the kitchen start the Keurig, brew my coffee. There's like a solid minute where you're waiting for your water to warm up and you get your magical being water. And so instead of just staring off into the abyss of my living room, I started using that one minute to go in and make my bed and seriously could do not sparingly have missed doing this ever since learning about this habit stacking formula.
00;18;48;14 - 00;18;56;23
Amber Walker
And I'm sure there are much more ways that I can put it to better use and maybe have done so. But love that. Love this concept that lays out for us.
00;18;56;23 - 00;19;20;19
Nick Lenzi
Yeah he talks about in the book and he gives resources to it. I think it's on atomic habits dot com but one of the things he recommends to is like list out the things that you do at the start of the day or the end of the day and put a plus or minus in the different ones. And I thought that was a really good way to of just looking through and, and identifying what are the things that you want to kind of remove or what are the things where you can actually attach one of these habits to as well.
00;19;20;19 - 00;19;27;15
Nick Lenzi
Like you said, like making the bed. But let's talk about with small groups so how do we make small groups obvious? I have a quick one. You want me to go first?
00;19;27;15 - 00;19;28;05
Amber Walker
Yeah, go for it.
00;19;28;13 - 00;19;59;15
Nick Lenzi
One of the things I love to do when it comes to making small groups obvious is I love to make things as consistent as possible. And so with our leader trainings that we knew where rare bird, we do leader trainings once a month. And what I do is it's always the last Sunday of every month p.m. and I try my best to stick to that schedule as much as possible because I want every single leader to be able to look at a calendar and know like, oh, I can, I can write in and I'm going to have training on this day or I know I need to block out this day so they can look
00;19;59;15 - 00;20;17;11
Nick Lenzi
at a calendar and see this know instantly. I also have a a network call that I do, and it's always the third Thursday at 3 p.m. So three, three, three is one of those kind of things. So I love those like little things. You look at a calendar and it makes it obvious. So that's one way how I use that obvious when it comes right again.
00;20;17;12 - 00;20;37;12
Amber Walker
And that's good. I think consistency. And I think another thing is clarity and over communicating, communicate for clarity. So we all know the saying, right, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So I know that's usually used in like a negative connotation, but genuinely like keeping top of mind right? Small groups, different things going on for leaders, but also your members.
00;20;37;12 - 00;21;05;12
Amber Walker
I heard from somebody like the next the new thing of marketing is going to be the calendar. Like taking over somebody's calendar. And in that to not to say that that's what we're trying to take over people's lives, but really keeping top of mind for your leaders and for your group members if you are a leader, kind of the things that you have coming up like if you just have a simple like meeting invite reminder to the people, don't forget you text your group the day before their show excitement for your group.
00;21;06;00 - 00;21;29;16
Amber Walker
So they don't forget, especially when you're starting with a new group and trying to create that habit, helping them make it obvious in ways that you're reinforcing and communicating and reminding. Starting a text chain or a group, meeting with your small group members these are ways to help just encourage attendance as well as, you know, when people don't show up or stuff happening so that you see those people and reach out to them.
00;21;29;22 - 00;21;44;14
Amber Walker
They're not just a number right we're here to be a community, and so express to them that they're not coming, whether it's a leader event or the leader things that you're planning or it's your actual group that you see that they're missing from that and they matter and you want them there.
00;21;44;24 - 00;21;50;23
Nick Lenzi
That's really cool. All right, let's move on to the next one, which is make it attractive. So same question. What do we mean when we want to make a habit.
00;21;51;04 - 00;22;01;27
Amber Walker
So habits become attractive according to you? Clear. When we associate them with positive feelings, the more attractive an opportunity is, the more likely we'll do it.
00;22;01;29 - 00;22;29;21
Nick Lenzi
Yeah, I thought this one was really good too. He talked about how behaviors are attractive when they help us fit in. We imitate the habits of three groups in particular. The close, the many in the community. And man, if you want to talk about small groups, I think the close and the community is one of those. They're really important so obviously as a church, as you're trying to do spiritual formation, small groups are going to have to play a big part of that because this is where those habits are going to are going to be able to start.
00;22;29;21 - 00;22;32;07
Nick Lenzi
So how do we go about making groups attractive?
00;22;32;09 - 00;22;56;25
Amber Walker
Yeah, I think we have some opportunity here to talk a little bit more practically about how to make your group environment a little bit more attractive. Just appealing to the senses through various ways. But where I want to start before we maybe get into some of those things is really how do we set small groups apart from just social club or networks that are a little bit more kind of of the world, right?
00;22;56;25 - 00;23;17;12
Amber Walker
Like what's that being a part of a church, small group apart. And I really believe that to be, you know, the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, living out the one another passages love one another, care for one another, one another's burdens, right? That's different than the world that says it's all about me and it's about my time and my goals and my priorities.
00;23;17;12 - 00;23;37;13
Amber Walker
Right? And really having your groups be priced centered and Christ led, that's something that's going to look different. That's going to be attractive to the people in your church, the people not in your church. I mean, when I was in New York, I remember I had my one year luncheon with my boss, and she asked me, she said, you know, what are you up to this weekend?
00;23;37;13 - 00;23;54;25
Amber Walker
And I said, oh, you know, I'm doing this with this group on this night. And then Saturday morning I'm going for breakfast at this place and then Sunday and church and brunch. And then I have a small group. And then at this she's like, Holy crap, I don't think I know you're gonna do like, oh, she's like, Oh, my goodness.
00;23;55;04 - 00;24;10;29
Amber Walker
Amber, you're in New York. Like, you've only been here for a year. How do you have all these? And it's the body of Christ, right? That's all. You can hang our hat on. We have brothers and sisters all over the world. No matter what city we find ourselves in, we have people who are a part of the body.
00;24;10;29 - 00;24;35;05
Amber Walker
Right? And that was such a testimony to somebody who is not a believer, who's not a part of the church that was attracted to her. Right. So just really cool that know what we what we have as a church family. But so I would say just like starting big picture, we got to start with the gospel. We got to start with talking about the gospel centered, Christ led Holy Spirit led in our groups to make them attractive.
00;24;35;05 - 00;24;58;14
Nick Lenzi
Yeah. I think that's that's really good. I remember practically personally my first year of leading a small group, not leading small groups, leading a small group. We were meeting on Monday nights and I had started in April and I started with kind of like a book study kind of thing and things went great. And as we went into the fall, we ended up, we had like 12 guys in our group and we just fell into this bad habit of watching Monday Night Football every Monday night.
00;24;58;14 - 00;25;13;23
Nick Lenzi
And I took a group of 12 all the way down to four, and it was the greatest thing that I needed to learn though, because it's like, don't be ashamed to have Jesus be the thing that's attractive about your group, because that's why they it's such a big, important part of why they want to be there and you shouldn't shy away from.
00;25;13;28 - 00;25;32;15
Nick Lenzi
So I'm thankful that you, you share that as a way to make a habit and practice with that. So one of the things that's really cool about this book is that he talks about pretty much we have these four laws, but the opposite is true for all of them too. So if we want to make something a bad habit, go away.
00;25;32;15 - 00;25;38;29
Nick Lenzi
We want to make it unattractive. So what are the things in group that are unattractive that we should try to avoid or not do?
00;25;39;00 - 00;25;58;16
Amber Walker
Yes. And pitfalls, I think where you steer away from the truth, from the gospel. I mean, again, carrying off of our my point that I just shared where we talk about like a little bit more shallow things or you get into kind of sharing opinions versus focusing on the word of God and letting the truth of his word inform us and renew our minds.
00;25;58;16 - 00;26;22;25
Amber Walker
Also, I think discussion issues. So if you have kind of a environment, you're fostering an environment that is judgmental or not open to hearing where somebody is at, it kind of like gently leading them to treat over talkers, dismissive people are things an unhealthy leader trying to do everything out of your own strength, letting issues go unchecked in the group.
00;26;22;25 - 00;26;45;26
Amber Walker
So if there's maybe somebody that's problematic for one reason or another, not being the leader and taking the time to to meet with that person one on one to try to address the issues, gossiping outside of group right. Small groups are a place for confidentiality and compassion and repentance and building, fostering that safe environment and and really setting the expectations from the upfront.
00;26;46;04 - 00;27;05;29
Amber Walker
I think so many times you fall into maybe issues down the line because expectations weren't set from the beginning. Right. And everybody coming into a small group, no matter no matter what, they have some sort of expectation. Right. And so at the very early onset kind of setting expectations about this is what we're going to be about as a small group.
00;27;05;29 - 00;27;13;08
Amber Walker
This is what we're not going to be about as a small group is so, so important for leaders. So avoiding some of those kind of pitfalls. What I would say, yeah.
00;27;13;08 - 00;27;34;26
Nick Lenzi
It's it's really looking at your group and thinking about, man, what are the distractions inside my group and how can I and hopefully you understand to the distraction as a person, you don't eliminate the person. It's more like having the courage to actually go and talk to them because more often than not that that or maybe you have an over-the-counter group where you have someone who just has a social norm that's not normal.
00;27;34;27 - 00;27;55;18
Nick Lenzi
Right? They're probably aware of it and they they're actually probably unaware of it. And they also don't understand why they have trouble making friends and connecting and you're someone who can really help them walk through that and give them that safe environment or it really helps people want to stay and be a part of. Cool. Well, that was the first two laws so that was make it obvious, make it attractive.
00;27;55;19 - 00;27;59;27
Nick Lenzi
We're going to take a quick break. We're going to hear from Jason. And after the break, we'll be back.
00;28;00;14 - 00;28;19;04
Jason
Hey, group talk listener Jason here, group to producer and I just wanted to let you know about one of the greatest resources at the Small Group Network has to offer huddles. Huddles are a way to connect small groups of people together at least once per quarter to build relationships, find encouragement and share ideas and resources. Basically, it's a small group for small group point people.
00;28;19;14 - 00;28;39;27
Jason
And huddles can meet in your area or meet online so do you want to find a small group network huddle near you? This small group network dot com forward slash huddles and search for huddles in your area. We have them all over the world. If you don't see one near you, step out and start one. You'll be surprised how many small group one people in your area are looking for 11 more time.
00;28;39;27 - 00;28;48;01
Jason
That small group network dot com forward slash huddles. Define your huddle today now back to reading Glenn's OK.
00;28;48;01 - 00;29;06;22
Nick Lenzi
Welcome back we're doing the book Atomic Habits by James Clear I have with me Amber Walker from the Bible Chapel and Burke, Pennsylvania. We have two more laws of habits that we need to hit. The next one I think might be one of my favorites which is Make It Easy. Who doesn't love making it easy? So what do we mean when we want to make a habit easy?
00;29;07;03 - 00;29;14;00
Amber Walker
Yes. We mean we will naturally gravitate toward the option that requires the least amount of work. Surprise, surprise.
00;29;14;11 - 00;29;35;06
Nick Lenzi
You know, one of the things that really jumped out about me in this and it's really interesting to think when it comes to small groups, but when he was talking about make it easy he introduced us to this thing called the two minute rule, which is where you literally just show up, do something for 2 minutes. So if you're trying to start a gym habit, you can start as easy as just showing up at the gym for 2 minutes and then leave because you just want to start.
00;29;35;06 - 00;29;49;20
Nick Lenzi
The first thing you want to get going is just that habit of going there and just even just being able to do any checkmark at all. So even though you go there and you maybe you're not and you're like, I would look so down on someone who shows up for 2 minutes, like, no, we want to encourage them because they got there.
00;29;49;20 - 00;30;04;29
Nick Lenzi
And that's how things start. We start small, we just keep stacking on on these small things. And so it really makes me think like, man, I don't know how I would feel, though, if someone took my group in as the first time and their habit was just coming to my house and then leaving. Right. But two.
00;30;04;29 - 00;30;05;10
Amber Walker
Minutes.
00;30;05;10 - 00;30;21;22
Nick Lenzi
Yeah, or 2 minutes later. But I do think there's other ways in which small groups where we could make it easy I'm going to go first and I'll hand it over to you. I think one of the ways that we can make it easy, too, is I think sometimes we we forget about how intimidating and daunting it can be to show up to a small group.
00;30;21;22 - 00;30;54;19
Nick Lenzi
And so any of those things that we can do to really help ease them into coming. One of the things that I know, especially in our context, that's really helpful and where you may remember this actually being here, but it can be really intimidating to go into someone's apartment here. So we usually try to encourage, hey, if you have a new guest coming, go meet in a public place because it's likely that they they've been to a Panera before, they've been to that coffee shop and they know the familiarity of that space and it's not as intimidating as like I'm going to go into apartment complex, figure out where we're supposed to go and meet
00;30;54;19 - 00;31;07;21
Nick Lenzi
these strangers. And the other thing that's nice about those, like there is different things like it kind of makes it a little bit easier to exit than it is at someone's house. But that was the one I kind of thought of. What do you think about when it comes to making small groups do the things that we might add that make it difficult?
00;31;07;21 - 00;31;08;05
Nick Lenzi
Yeah.
00;31;08;05 - 00;31;30;02
Amber Walker
So one thing I just was thinking about, and I know this is part of the strategy for Grace around offering dinner at dinner groups. Right? About think about your group members right? They are not just small group members. They are mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, bosses, direct reports, you know, like the list goes on and on about all the roles that we play in our lives.
00;31;30;12 - 00;31;52;27
Amber Walker
So it's going to go a long way as a leader to think through, you know, what that person has on their plate and how do you make it easier for them to show up so I think, yeah, offering dinner or snack for the people that are coming straight from work have busy schedules, right? Just going a little bit to the extra mile to offer and practice that hospitality for them is going to make it easier for them to show up to a group.
00;31;52;27 - 00;31;53;09
Amber Walker
Right.
00;31;53;15 - 00;32;10;06
Nick Lenzi
And actually also make linking to them, make it obvious because it's a bit of a habit setting that you're taking away like they've got to eat. So you're here. You're really trying to help them link those two things together. And this is also why I'm kind of against I'm not a big fan of potlucks, which might sound crazy in a church world.
00;32;10;16 - 00;32;30;04
Nick Lenzi
I hear that, but I don't it may just be a context thing here, but I find when we do potlucks or do anything like that, it actually really hurts our attendance because then someone needs to bring something in order to come. So you've raised the level of like coming from just, hey, just show up to show up and bring something like don't the watch out for those kind of things.
00;32;30;04 - 00;32;32;10
Nick Lenzi
If you have those kind of habits in your group where it's a really.
00;32;32;10 - 00;32;32;27
Amber Walker
Good point.
00;32;32;28 - 00;32;50;03
Nick Lenzi
There's something and to it like this is what can happen with book studies or Bible studies where there's homework that comes with it. Like if there's like watch out those things that you need to bring with you in order just to show up to group like the lower that you can make that bar of like, hey, what does it take for you to do something?
00;32;50;03 - 00;33;03;25
Nick Lenzi
So that's one of the things I've really been trying to teach my group leaders as well is like, I would really love for groups to be the place where it's the place where we're coming together and we're just encouraging and supporting one another. And it's where a check in to be like, Hey, what are you, what have you been learning this past week?
00;33;03;25 - 00;33;19;02
Nick Lenzi
How have you been experiencing God being? And say, like, hey, you know, this past week I was reading James, too. I came across this verse, the tune on all week, and I really think I need to take this step and we're able to encourage them that way. Like, I almost think that it's great when that stuff's happening outside of group and then you're able to sort of come into group and.
00;33;20;03 - 00;33;20;17
Nick Lenzi
Yeah, yeah.
00;33;20;19 - 00;33;51;10
Amber Walker
I don't think that really you touch on a really good point. Like it's important to often know your group. Yes. Discern kind of where your group is at spiritually, discern where they're at in terms of like their time and then kind of acting or responding accordingly. Right. And I think about in terms of, you know, flipping the script and talking more to small group point people here and in ministry leaders we really need to think about the people again and get back to the people putting ourselves in their shoes, making it easier for them to show up for things.
00;33;51;10 - 00;34;08;18
Amber Walker
And I think about and just want to speak to like Margaret point people here and ministry leaders. But as you're appreciating right, your leaders are your training. Your leaders think about times and ways that are convenient for them to get them. Whatever you're trying to do for them, you might think like, oh yeah, I'm going to appreciate my leaders.
00;34;08;18 - 00;34;28;09
Amber Walker
I'm going to plan this big dinner on a Saturday night. Right? But that creates problems sometimes for leaders who have kids can't get babysitters. Right. If one more thing that you're asking them to do, think about ways to celebrate them or train them in environments times that's going to be convenient for them. We just had a December appreciation event, right?
00;34;28;09 - 00;34;45;22
Amber Walker
And we did it between services because why? We knew leaders were already going to be there. They were going to be at the early service or the late service. So we made it between services. There was a pop up event. Come in, get a gift. We want to celebrate you. If you want to hang out and talk with other leaders, and spend time, great if you're busy, because guess what?
00;34;45;22 - 00;35;06;07
Amber Walker
It's December and we're all crazed around the holidays, right? Then pick up your pie and just know that we love you and we appreciate you. And they were so, so grateful for that. I got so many comments. Thank you for thinking of us. It is a crazy time, but this was awesome. Just to pop in, be all celebrated, get to talk with some other leaders.
00;35;06;18 - 00;35;26;04
Nick Lenzi
Yeah, I love that. That's a really great way of making it easy. I think when it comes to like this, is one man this. If you're a point person, think about this one a lot. Like I would budget this into your your quarter if not month to just constantly go and look like, are we making it easy for someone to become a leader or to jump into a group?
00;35;26;04 - 00;35;45;28
Nick Lenzi
And so like go to your website and see how many clicks that take. The less clicks that you can make it, the better I know there's some of these websites where you're just like clicking and clicking and clicking and clicking, clicking just to get to where you need to if you want to go back. There's a previous episode Allen White called Don't Be a Hero that I Did, where we really talk about this on on trying to make it as easy as possible.
00;35;45;28 - 00;36;03;25
Nick Lenzi
I think the last thing that I'd leave it with is think about what it is that it takes to become a leader and what are the ways you could make that easy as well. So I think one of the things that's really helped us get new leaders here at home, Grace, has been we have this simple thing which is like Choose the night execute the plan and take the training, right?
00;36;04;04 - 00;36;19;11
Nick Lenzi
And so, like, we have our first ten weeks laid out for the end. So if you want to see what it looks like, it's that ten week group dot com and you can see the ten weeks that we have. And what's great about it is like we wanted to make it as easy as possible for someone to start leading a group now.
00;36;19;24 - 00;36;35;05
Nick Lenzi
Now don't hear me say that we've tried to lower the standard for what a leader is. That's a different conversation. We're not trying to make it easy. It's more like we're trying to make it easy for them to say yes to the role because sometimes it can just be really intimidating of all the things that they have to do, and that goes, but this is awesome.
00;36;35;05 - 00;36;55;28
Nick Lenzi
One other thing that I want to hit on with Make It Easier section is he has a really great point in there. About the difference between motion and action. And I think this is something that every small group, leader and point person needs to know and it's, you know, paying attention that like all your group members and groups, are they actually taking action or are they just going through motion?
00;36;56;04 - 00;37;13;07
Nick Lenzi
So in other words, like, are they are they just staying in place or are they just going through these different things that are the actions actually making a difference? You talked about the difference between a motion action. Motion is planning, strategizing and learning, but action is the type of behavior that will deliver an outcome. So I thought that was a really good one distinction for us.
00;37;13;07 - 00;37;18;27
Nick Lenzi
So let's hit this last one, make it satisfying. What do we mean when we want to make a habit satisfying?
00;37;18;29 - 00;37;24;29
Amber Walker
Ask then you get a habit to start to feel immediately satisfied. Immediately. That little dopamine.
00;37;25;20 - 00;37;43;29
Nick Lenzi
Yes. In the first three laws are all about increasing the odds that a behavior will be performed. But this time this one is all about increasing the odds that the behavior will be repeated next time. So this is something I think our first first impressions or guest services teams deal with a lot. And because their whole goal is to get you there a second time.
00;37;43;29 - 00;37;50;21
Nick Lenzi
But for us, we should be thinking about this too. How do we get someone to group a second time? What are the habits we conclude in our groups that help? Yes, return.
00;37;51;11 - 00;38;09;07
Amber Walker
Yeah. So I'd love to hear your thoughts. I have a couple. First is just really build excitement that they're there, show that they matter, that you see them right before group. They were so excited. You're joining tonight. If you have any questions in advance of free to reach out when they get there, be excited about them connect them to other people.
00;38;09;15 - 00;38;41;00
Amber Walker
I've heard of some small groups that like kind of incorporate like a buddy that person that is that natural connector maybe that person that's on the guest services or connections team within your small group there really make that person feel welcomed and loved and cared for and and all of that. Just like over communicating. I think we can communicate and again, reaching out to them when they first sign up for your group immediately like showing how excited you are when after they show up, just texting them and thanking them again for coming, saying you're excited to see them again next week.
00;38;41;08 - 00;39;04;15
Amber Walker
I think that can go a long way. I think there's also going to depend a little bit on the person, right? And just using your discernment as a leader about that person's personality and how can you make it comfortable for them to be stimulated to your group, right? So they're outgoing. You might immediately add them to all of your text thread, then your chat and whatever all the things that they're a little bit more introverted.
00;39;04;15 - 00;39;13;14
Amber Walker
You might like take your time and kind of incorporate them or to not overwhelm them. So just a couple of initial ideas, you get the conversation.
00;39;13;14 - 00;39;36;16
Nick Lenzi
Yeah, I, I really jump on the one that you talked about, which was, you said identify a buddy or natural connector. One of the things I do is we, I'll text my entire group and let them know, hey, we have a new James that's showing up to our group tonight. So I want everyone to be welcoming into their because when they come to group, they expect the leader to treat them well, but rarely do they expect the rest of the group that way.
00;39;36;16 - 00;39;57;00
Nick Lenzi
So when other people take interest in them besides just beta, no such a long way and helping them satisfy with the group. And then one of the other things that I'm trying to focus on as a leader when I'm inside those circles you the same thing when I have new group leaders at training events is really trying to match them up with terminology or things that they might be unaware of.
00;39;57;00 - 00;40;17;16
Nick Lenzi
And you know, the other thing too is that like you get someone new, you can get kind of they can kind of hurt the experience for the rest of the group. Members constantly be doing icebreakers and different things of like who am I. So when I have a new person come to a group and we've done the like, this is who I am, what I do, where I'm from, or wherever, the things that you come up with, I'll just go around the room and do it for them.
00;40;17;21 - 00;40;35;26
Nick Lenzi
They'll be like, This is Don. Don lives in Jersey City. He works for this company and does that, you know, and then just go around the room. It really helps speed it up. And then the other thing, too, is just help communicate. You know, you'll learn these names and know time and anything that you can do to acknowledge the intimidation or the things that could make it something uncomfortable.
00;40;35;26 - 00;40;45;11
Nick Lenzi
I think really helps them accomplish that. OK, all right. So that was atomic habits. Those the laws from it make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy and make it satisfying or anything that we missed.
00;40;45;12 - 00;40;49;28
Amber Walker
So honestly, I feel like we haven't even scratched kind of the richness of this book, but.
00;40;49;28 - 00;41;00;26
Nick Lenzi
That's how we end every episode in this show is that we get the book more like it is it. First off, we only covered the four laws. There's a whole like bonus section after it. But go ahead, Amber. Sorry for stopping.
00;41;00;29 - 00;41;05;08
Amber Walker
Yeah. No, no. Yeah, they just got to read it. They got to buy it. They got to read it fully endorse.
00;41;06;20 - 00;41;28;06
Nick Lenzi
The one thing that we were talking about before we got recording that I think is worth talking about is he also gives this awesome advice. I think it's in make it obvious, but it's think as if you are already so in other words, like, yeah, he has this awesome point where like if you want to become someone that's healthy or you want to start a gym habit or lose weight, then you start to do is start asking yourself what would a healthy person do?
00;41;28;06 - 00;41;43;04
Nick Lenzi
So you like you walk in a building and you see steps in the elevator. What would a healthy person well, healthy versus going to take the steps or you get to your refrigerator and you're hungry and you go, what would a healthy person do? Well, healthy person is going to eat a pepper or an apple healthy, you know?
00;41;43;04 - 00;42;01;01
Nick Lenzi
So like, I really love that aspect and I really think that's one of the things as again, as bloggers point people that we can be thinking through, like, you know, if our goal is to create disciples. All right, what is it the disciple would do right? And try to think about like, oh, well, they would 15 minutes doing this or they would meet the needs of X, you know, kind of thing.
00;42;01;01 - 00;42;13;25
Nick Lenzi
So I think it's a nice little guide as you are going through this and creating new habits. Let's head into the Lightning Round. So this is where we wrap up. Amber, what is another book that you've read recently that had an impact on your leadership?
00;42;13;25 - 00;42;39;18
Amber Walker
Yeah, so it's actually another book on Habit Ice Crest, and you catch a theme. So I really enjoyed and I feel like I got a lot out of Billy from this out of the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, which I know is an oldie but a goodie. It's funny, I feel like I just discovered this book and I've like shared it with a bunch of people and they're like, Oh yeah, I think I read that like high school or something.
00;42;39;18 - 00;43;02;21
Amber Walker
I'm like, I've never heard about it until just now. So yeah, I think it's another really good one, kind of as soon as somebody finishes reading Atomic Habit, it's a great book to pick up. Yeah. So you have the tools that you need to do develop habits from atomic habits, and then you have some suggestions of some habits that'll make you a little bit more effective that you can build up over time.
00;43;03;11 - 00;43;17;15
Nick Lenzi
Yeah. Believe it or not, book I haven't read. Oh, it's one that I have always had on my list. And I have a friend up in New Jersey who leads a church that called Emergency His name is Alex Hauser, and this is his favorite book, though he's always been encouraging me to read it and I've never got it.
00;43;17;28 - 00;43;19;19
Nick Lenzi
And then Amber, what's one book you're looking forward to?
00;43;19;19 - 00;43;33;22
Amber Walker
Yeah, so one of the pastors of our church that I'd pretty much read anything to do is lead the 12 Gospel Principles for Leadership in the Church by Paul David Trent. So I'm really looking forward to diving into that one next.
00;43;33;22 - 00;43;34;17
Nick Lenzi
That's going to be a good one.
00;43;35;05 - 00;44;00;03
Amber Walker
And I have to share just the kind of feedback and kind of a good wrap up. You're kind of reinforcing, as you said, how he encourages you to reinforce the identity and the person that you want to be. Right. And say, you know, what would a healthy person do in the situation? I am claiming and speaking over myself that I'm going to be a book finisher this year because I have a little bit of like A.D.D. when it comes to.
00;44;00;03 - 00;44;19;02
Amber Walker
But yeah, like I start one read about six chapters and seven talking about a great new book and oh yeah, I got to get that and I start reading that and so have all these books that I've started that I really haven't finished that this year. I'm claiming myself as a book manager and I'm gonna finish those reads that I've been a bit putting off as well.
00;44;19;02 - 00;44;23;04
Nick Lenzi
Amber, this was fantastic. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with others. I know it's benefited me.
00;44;23;04 - 00;44;26;20
Amber Walker
Happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me, Nick. I hope I hope this is helpful.
00;44;27;01 - 00;44;45;22
Nick Lenzi
Well, I'm Nick Lindsey. I thank you for listening with us. Thanks to Amber for sharing your experiences. We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. Come back next week for Inside Saddleback. Also, I'll be at the lobby this next month, February 20. 22 of you there. Please come say hello and thanks for joining us. Remember, leaders of readers take care of you and.
00;44;45;26 - 00;45;05;29
Jason
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00;45;06;10 - 00;45;17;17
Jason
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