Chat with a Therapist: Talking to Kids About Alcohol w/ Merrilee Burke, LMFT

In this 30-minute discussion, therapist Merrilee Burke shares effective strategies for discussing alcohol with children coming of age. If you enjoy this episode, please leave a review or email your feedback to [e-mail]. We'd love to hear your thoughts!!

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Mike Hardenbrook

#1 best-selling author of "No Willpower Required," neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert.

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"Journey to the Sunnyside" is your guide to exploring mindful living with alcohol, whether you're cutting back, moderating, or thinking about quitting. While Sunnyside helps you reduce your drinking, this podcast goes further, covering everything from mindful drinking and moderation to sober curiosity and full sobriety. Through real stories, expert advice, and practical strategies, we’re here to help you find what works best for your journey.

Mike Hardenbrook is a #1 best-selling author and neuroscience enthusiast, dedicated to helping people transform their relationship with alcohol.

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Mike: 00:00

Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and, of course, inspire your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardenbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. Alright.

Mike: 00:36

Mary Lee, thanks for coming in today. Last episode was amazing. In fact, it was our most popular one. And we're gonna do something fun today, which is we're gonna completely go off the cuff. We talked about doing another subject, and we decided, you know what?

Mike: 00:50

We're gonna talk about how to interact with your your kids as they're becoming adults around the subject of alcohol. So first of all, thanks for coming on, and this is gonna be a lot of fun.

Merrilee: 01:03

Well, thanks so much for having me back. It's good to see you again.

Mike: 01:06

Yeah. So let's talk about this because I have kids. They're 4, 10, and 12. And this and I'm already thinking about, like, how am I gonna talk to them about alcohol? Actually, in fact, I'm thinking, should I be or all kinds of I got a list of questions.

Mike: 01:21

But, but first, let's talk about before we get into some of the older kids as they're getting into, you know, experimenting with alcohol and then eventually of the drinking age, so we'll just put the number around, like, 15, 16, kids in the home that are how do we talk to them? But the first one, let's take a step back because I think about this all the time and I think a lot of others do is the habits inside the house. How important do you think those are and how influent influential do you think that they are? When it comes to our children as they're getting older, obviously, there's an impact. But let's just chat about that for a few minutes.

Merrilee: 02:01

Okay. Yeah. I think, I mean, certainly kids, are paying attention to everything, and they're seeing everything. And but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to mimic the behaviors they see. You know, so if they have parents who are heavy drinkers, you know, depending on what the parents behavior is when they're drinking, the kids might notice, not notice to varying degrees, be curious, they'll certainly have questions.

Merrilee: 02:25

Kids have questions about everything, as you know. And so, you know, it's it's hard to say specifically, you know, without knowing the context of the drinking. You know, is is a parent's drinking problematic? You know, that's something that kids are certainly going to notice and you're probably gonna wanna think about how you wanna explain that to them. But if parents are, let's say, social drinkers, you know, who maybe kinda overdo it every once in a while, you know, I think it's really up to the parents to decide how they wanna address that, but I think it's worth considering the idea of addressing it because, you know, like I said, kids do see things and they don't always ask questions.

Merrilee: 03:01

They could be forming opinions about things or having concerns about things and not vocalizing them. So I think it's a really good idea to think about, you know, addressing it with kids and and because it's part of their life, just like they see you going to work. It's like, what do you say about what you do when you go to work? What do you say about, you know, if, if an older relative is getting confused, you know, how do you explain that? So I think, you know, drinking is just one out of a lot of things that you wanna think about really mindfully what you want your kids to know and what you want them to understand about it.

Mike: 03:32

Yeah. You know, I'd one of the reasons I asked because I asked out of personal experience. So I grew up in a household where I think I saw my dad drink a beer once. Like, there there was, like, no drinking really going on at all, and yet here I come at this age that we're talking about 15, 16, out of a cannon and straight into party mode, you know, for the next, whatever, 10 years. And, it's interesting because I guess and maybe you can comment on this is is it more of like an adopt or rebel sort of, like, mentality when it comes to what goes on in the house?

Merrilee: 04:10

Yeah. That's right. I mean, that that is very common for either for kids to to kinda copy what they see or to go the opposite way. I kind of went the opposite way. I saw my father drinking all day every day my entire childhood and that really scared me away from drinking until I was older.

Merrilee: 04:25

That's part of the reason I didn't start drinking till I was 25. And then when I did start drinking and it became an issue, it was very different than how he drank. For him, it was he was very much self medicating, whereas for me, it was, you know, something I was trying to do for fun that got out of hand on a pretty regular basis, but it was never a daily thing for me. Mhmm.

Mike: 04:45

It was

Merrilee: 04:45

never I mean, I guess in some ways it was a coping mechanism, but not like it was for him. It was something he really needed. Chemically, he was dependent, but also, you know, emotionally he really needed it to to function. Yeah.

Mike: 04:56

I think there's a clear distinction there. So, like, if parents are wondering, you know, should I bring be drinking in the house? I think there's another layer that goes on to that is how are you using it inside of the house. So if you're using it just to, numb out, if you're using it, like, they see you all stressed and poor drink because of that versus they see you, you know, maybe doing a celebratory drink or toast or something like that or because it's relaxing by the pool, not because it's out of necessity. So I think, you know, we really just need to be mindful of not only, you know, at what quantity and what visibility around our kids are we gonna have alcohol, but also, like, what's our mental state and the reason that we're gonna drink it, at that time.

Merrilee: 05:38

Right. Right. And it's something to consider. If if your reasons for drinking and your ways of drinking are things you don't feel comfortable talking to your kids about, then it might not be something that you want to be exposing them to, because they're going to know and they're going to be affected by it. So then that's something that could be, you know, kind of a red flag for someone when they're thinking about their drinking.

Merrilee: 06:01

If you can't, if you can't don't feel comfortable verbalizing to someone why you're doing what you're doing, you know, that could be an indication that there's a problem there and something that you might want to start working to change.

Mike: 06:11

Yeah, A 100%. So let's talk about, how we talk to, like, our adolescent kids. And so you and I had chatted a little bit about this. Like, I have younger kids, and I don't think that this would be the first conversation that you have with your kids around alcohol. I mean, I know personally, I haven't had, like, a deep conversation yet, but it's definitely something as my 12 year old.

Mike: 06:34

I I feel like I'm probably behind to just have some very, like, high level, you know, just to make mention and see what her thoughts are around just, you know, culturally speaking, see it in movies, seeing it, you know, occasionally in the house or when we get out. But for this conversation, we're gonna fast forward through that, and we're just gonna talk about, you know, at this point, at maybe high school age or something. And so, you know, what's the like, when and how should we start thinking about, how we approach this subject with our with our kids?

Merrilee: 07:09

Well, I think you've mentioned something really important there, which is this probably you don't wanna wait to have the first conversation about drinking when you think they might be considering starting to drink. Like, hopefully, it's been an ongoing conversation and something that they know that they can talk to you about. I think in a lot of families and maybe different cultures, it's sort of taboo. And I think what I what I find kinda really interesting, kind of confusing about our culture is it seems like there's this understanding and acceptance that that kids start drinking typically at fairly early ages. I think the last statistic I saw was, I think, 15 or 16 is the average age that most kids start to drink.

Merrilee: 07:46

And it seems like it's kind of a given that, you know, certainly after the age of 18, that drinking is very common, even though it's not legal until someone turns 21. So I feel like underage drinking is somewhat accepted in our culture and yet not talked about. It's kind of like this, you know, don't ask, don't tell kind of a thing, which I think is is strange because, you know, if somebody has the attitude that, you know, people under 21 shouldn't be drinking alcohol, I think that's really valid. But it's it's weird how we have this this attitude that isn't that. That's like, well, they're going to do it, but let's pretend they're not doing it.

Merrilee: 08:21

And I don't think that that's particularly healthy because then you're sending, you know, these these young people, sometimes kids to do this this have this experience of drinking that a lot of adults have problems controlling and mastering and being safe with. So if adults, if people in their thirties and forties who've been doing it for years have problems with it, you know, why are we letting kids do it and letting kids do it on their own? You know, so I think it's really important at the age, and I think it would be different, obviously, from kid to kid, you know, person to person when they're going to consider drinking. Is it 15, 16? Is it 18, is it when they go to college?

Merrilee: 08:59

And I think, you know, the the important thing is for kids to know that they can talk to their parents about it and that, you know, if they have no intention of drinking and then they go to a party when they're 17 and everybody's drinking and now suddenly something that wasn't an issue a day later is an issue. So ideally, you know, you'd wanna have the kind of relationship where you can talk to your kids about it and then decide, you know, what what do you want them to know? I think that's a really important thing because there's what do you want them to do, probably you just don't want them to drink at all, right, because it's risky and why would you want your kid doing something risky? But how realistic is that? So then there's a question of like you know what are your preferences, what would you like them to do, but also what do you think it's important for them to know as people who might drink someday?

Mike: 09:44

Yeah. I think you nailed it there, and also one of the things that I think most parents do, and I know that this is like sort of the, you know I guess we're old school now, but, like, things are changing. But I think the conversation was more around alcohol with our parents was, you know, this is when you can do it and this is when you can't. And it's usually around, like, you know, you're not you're only 16. You're not supposed to drink.

Mike: 10:09

But I think the conversation really needs to shift. In my view, is that, it's instead of the emphasis on being when you're allowed to or when it's okay, and it's the emphasis should should be more around, like, teaching our kids how to drink in a way that doesn't harm them or put them at risk instead. Because, you know, we made this comparison on this video that we made, which was, like, what if you learned how to drink like you learned, you know, like, somebody taught you how to drive a car, like, you know, you do you do this. This is step 1. Don't do this.

Mike: 10:43

Don't don't cross here. That's the you know, like and I know that's kind of a weird, analogy there with car and driving, but but it's true. Like, it's a basic thing at that age that you learn how to do, and you you gotta drive. And, yeah, some kids are will choose to never drink, but I don't think that that's that's just gonna happen on its own for those people, I I believe. The rest, we need to I think we need to give them more direction than we do to set boundaries on this isn't allowed until you're 21, or if you do it, you better not caught get caught.

Mike: 11:19

But then there's no direction when you do it. You know, like, and that's why you got binge drinking.

Merrilee: 11:24

Mhmm. Exactly. And, no, I think that that's a perfect analogy, the the driving. You know, we don't say, well, they're gonna grab some keys and drive a car someday, let's just hope they'll be safe when they do it and we know we teach them how to do it and you know they used to do that, I don't know if you're familiar at all with the Greeks and the symposium approach, but people, adults used to teach young people how to drink and how to drink in moderation and how to not overdo it And that's gone away and I think a big part of the reason that's gone away is because of the legal drinking age. Because, you know, if you're an adult, you don't really want to be, you know, in any way kind of giving alcohol to somebody who's underage or you know providing it to them or, encouraging them to do it, But then the result is that they're teaching each other how to do it, and then that's why things become so problematic and why it's binge drinking because kids teaching other kids how to drink and really this is something adults should be teaching.

Merrilee: 12:19

And I think, you know, and I'm not, you know, talking about laws and changing laws is kind of outside of my scope, but, you know, I think there's a real conversation to be had about lowering the drinking age because if it was 18, you know, then you could have people who work at colleges supervising college parties, right? And you know, tracking how much alcohol, you know, the kids are getting and having and you could have a supervision there because what's happening now is nobody wants to supervise because they don't wanna get in trouble.

Mike: 12:47

Mhmm. Yeah. And, you know, I think most people don't wait until they're 20 one anyway, so it's not like that laws. Just, keeping anybody that wants to do it from actually doing it. So let me ask you.

Mike: 12:59

It might make it difficult, you know, thinking back to fake ID days and asking the older brother to get by the group of keg. But, so let me ask you. So, like, how do we approach it then? So if we wanna come to them and talk a little bit, like, assuming that we've already had some conversations, I'm gonna guess that you're gonna say or I'm gonna guess that we need to lay a little bit of boundaries so that we are understanding each other, what's what's okay and what's not okay, and maybe safety nets? What do you how would you approach it?

Merrilee: 13:33

I think safety is is the number one thing, right? Making sure that they're not driving, finding out, you know, who they're going to be drinking with, making sure especially, I mean, not that bad things can't happen to young men but especially for young women and girls to understand the risks when they're drinking and making sure that they're drinking with people that they're safe with And, you know, again, you know, transportation, that kind of thing, not doing risky behaviors, not swimming and drinking, you know, things like that. Just making sure that they're aware of how alcohol might affect them and how it could put them in danger in various situations that they might not think about until they're in the situation. If they're already drinking, it's, it might be too late. So I think safety, number 1.

Merrilee: 14:14

And then, you know, I think, you know, measuring, thinking about like what is a drink? What is a glass of wine? What is a mixed drink? I don't know if I've told you this before but when I first started drinking, I thought the way you made a mixed drink was half liquor and half whatever else. And I thought that for years and no wonder it was a messy couple of years.

Merrilee: 14:32

And it wasn't till somebody saw me doing that and said, what are you doing? That I found out that that's not actually how you're supposed to make a drink, but how would I have known? You know, I

Mike: 14:39

never saw anything. Tasted horrible. Horrible.

Merrilee: 14:42

But, you know, you get used to it and I got I guess I got used to it. But, you know, that would have been really helpful for me to know, oh, this is how you make a drink, you know and what is a glass of wine, you know how much is a glass you know if you're filling up one of those red solo cups halfway with wine, that's not a glass of wine, that's a couple glasses of wine in one cup, right? So I think helping them to understand you know what is a drink so that they can start to get in the habit of pacing themselves and being aware of how much they're drinking and not just going and filling things up. And then, and also being aware that it can take a while for the effects of the alcohol to kick in. So just because you feel fine now doesn't mean you're, if you keep drinking you're going to feel fine in a half an hour or an hour.

Merrilee: 15:23

So just helping them understand what it's like to drink and you know how to do it in in more responsible ways, in ways they won't hopefully regret.

Mike: 15:35

Yeah, you know, I mean, so I'm curious to know about your thoughts for the parents that are have the attitude of, you know, they already know they're gonna do it. So they suggest if you're gonna do it, I'd rather you do it where I am or at home with your friends, you know, and you can take your your professional hat off and just give me your, you know, own opinion on this if you want, if that makes you more comfortable. But what are your thoughts on

Merrilee: 16:07

that? I mean, you know, tough to say to a parent what they should do with their kids, right, so I would never wanna want to do that, but, honestly I think that that's just more responsible. Now it might seem less responsible because again you're an adult, you're essentially you know breaking the law, but is it, are you going to be able to to keep your kids safe by doing that? Are you or keep them safer or help them to learn good habits because you're the person they're learning to drink with and you know, you know that they're at home, you know they're not going to be driving, you know who's there, you can keep them safe. I mean to me, if I were a parent and I'm not, so that's why I'm kind of ready to tell anybody how they should parent, but you know I think, you know, thinking about what's actually going to help my child to be safe and to develop habits that they will hopefully keep for the rest of their lives and keep them from having problems down the road, you know, that seems like the the most reasonable, you know answer to

Mike: 17:05

me. Yeah I'm with you. Like I I don't think at that age I wouldn't necessarily encourage it but in my mind, not only does it keep them a little safer, but it also allows me to recognize potential problems or potential, like, misuse or be able to have a conversation around it. But but end of the day, like, the most important thing that I stress to my kids and I tell them now is that there is nothing that you tell me that we can't figure out together. And that I promise you if it's something that you're worried about, I will not get mad.

Mike: 17:38

We will figure this out together. You just but I can't help you, and we can't do this together unless you tell me and you're a 100% honest. And so for me, like, if I just I just want that communication number above, you know, maybe having them there. Because then if they're out and something happens, hopefully, they know that, you know, they they can always call home.

Merrilee: 18:09

I completely agree with that and putting my therapist hat back on, you know, that is what the kind of attachment that we want parents to have with their kids, right, where and I know some parents, you know, wanna just scare their kids into doing what they want them to do and that might be effective at certain ages or with certain things but, you know, in the long term, if kids and parents have a dialogue and can be honest with one another, you know, then that that allows parents to give, to pass on their wisdom and their lived experience and to to essentially to parent, you know, if you actually know what your child is experiencing and what they need to know and if they can come to you for things for guidance then that's, you know, your opportunity to parent. Ben Stuart

Mike: 18:54

Yeah, I think the communication, at least in my, I'm only talking from my own experience and of course like, everybody's a a first time parent in one way or another. I mean, you can have multiple kids, but you still only get this live do this live once and and your parent wants. So, you know, we all do the best we can and everybody's different, I think. So so if we start talking about our to our kids and, what are your thoughts on how do we I think part of that is is talking about, this goes back to, like, the DARE program, which we already know didn't work, but peer pressure was always part of of that talk. And I think it is, like, what your peers do at that age, you're so influential.

Mike: 19:38

You know, how does that conversation fast forward to, like, a more modern day approach and conversation, with more effective strategies than maybe we grew up with?

Merrilee: 19:47

Right, well, and and the interesting thing, sometimes there is peer pressure, and I think a lot of kids know to, you know, if you say no to someone and they keep trying to get you to do something, you know, that's not, you don't want to necessarily listen to them. But it's not just peer pressure. It's just pure influence. It's whatever everybody else is doing. And if they're doing something and it seems normal, you know, that's a big thing for young people is wanting to be normal and fit in and be like everybody else.

Merrilee: 20:12

And if everyone else is doing something and it seems normal and it seems fun, even if there's not pressure, it might just seem like, you know, a a good thing to try. So I think, you know, normalizing that experience, recognizing that that's what's going to happen, that your kids are going to go into the world and be around other people and be influenced by them and just like you said just kind of keeping that that dialogue open and having your kids know that they can come to you and talk to you about whatever is going on in their life and that you won't be, you know, punitive or judgmental, that you'll listen and that you're there to help them and to guide them and not to punish them.

Mike: 20:51

Yeah. So what are your thoughts on let's, I think, let's assume that a lot of people here listening wanna change their habits with alcohol and that, at some point, most of them were uncomfortable. Maybe they'd say it was problematic. And do you talk about that with your kids? Do you talk about moderation?

Mike: 21:12

Do you talk about, like, hey. I had I've had some in the past. This is where I was. This is where I am. This is how I got there.

Mike: 21:20

Or is this, like, information that it's too much or maybe not helpful or the opposite, you know, of that?

Merrilee: 21:28

I think, you know, that's that's a tough, question to answer because I think it's case by case. I think it depends on the parent and their unique situation and the child and, you know, obviously how old they are, but also, you know, what they're needing from that parent because, you know, the the ideally as a parent, you don't want to put your your struggles onto your child and then give it to them as something to worry about but also pretending that something's not wrong. If it is, that doesn't really help the kids either. So it's it's really tough to say because I think it really is case by case.

Mike: 22:02

That makes sense. Totally. I mean, I think it's just like it goes all the way to where we started, which is, like, does your lead, how you behave in the house actually influence your kids? And, yeah, to some factor or another, it does, but it's really kinda case by case. I mean, in my case, it had no influence on me because it wasn't in the house and my went my own direction anyways.

Mike: 22:23

And so, so I think I wanna kinda, like, in encompass everything that we're talking about here. And so, like, if somebody if I came in and my daughter who's 12 now was actually 15, and I said I wanna start talking to her about, you know, she's gonna start going out. How should I initiate this con this conversation? What would you tell me?

Merrilee: 22:46

Well, I think, you know, kind of going back to this idea of, you know, hopefully, you've been having conversations with her. And not just about drinking but about, you know, anything that's going to come up about sex, about, you know, things that about, you know, peer pressure, about friendships, about cheating in school, you know, anything that could be a challenge, you know, hopefully those conversations are already happening of you know scary things are going to happen, weird things are going to happen, I'm somebody you can talk to about those kinds of things. So hopefully there's already been a bit of a conversation that this idea of that she might drink someday has already been something that's that's kind of been addressed. So then if there seems to be a moment where, you know, she comes to you and she goes, you know, I was at this party and some of the kids were drinking, I didn't drink, I didn't really want to, but it was just kind of weird to see some of my friends doing that. You know, that might be the moment of like, okay, now is the time to have this conversation.

Merrilee: 23:44

And then in terms of what that encompasses, was that the question about what you would say or when you would say it?

Mike: 23:51

What you would say, but like, how would you approach it, you know?

Merrilee: 23:55

Well, in this, you know, I'm gonna do what I like to do and turn it back on you. What is something, what do you wish someone had told you about drinking before you started?

Mike: 24:04

I wish somebody told me what, like, a normalized amount of alcohol was. In my mind, I was like, kids rage. And if, this is the only time in my life it's acceptable to just, like, go free for all. So I'm gonna go free for all. And I sort of wish somebody could would have told me is that, yeah, you're gonna make mistakes.

Mike: 24:28

You're probably gonna get, you know, drink too much, but it's not worth it. Like, it's definitely not worth it because you'll miss out on things, which I did. Like, I think I did. I think my journey was more difficult because of trying to be the party guy. Mhmm.

Merrilee: 24:45

Right. And I think, you know, and this is something I, you know, I work with my adult clients on, which is there's an amount of alcohol, I think, for just about everybody where you can have fun and you can enjoy it and not get out of control, not put yourself at risk, not feel like you wanna die the next day, that there is a balance to be had. And it's not always your, like you said, everybody makes mistakes trying to find that balance and it's just how long are you gonna keep making the mistakes? Are you gonna do it a couple times? Are you gonna do it pretty regularly for years?

Merrilee: 25:14

You know, when are you going to kind of figure out that balance and figure out that balance is the goal? Even if you wanna have fun, even if you wanna let loose and rage and whatever it is and get wasted, even if that's the goal, you know, there's a way to do it that is less harmful than another way to do it and so putting a plan in place, understanding like how many drinks is a lot of drinks and again, like, what even is a drink, You know, and thinking about are you, are you thinking, okay, I'm gonna have 4 drinks and then you really are having 8 because you don't know how to track what you're drinking and how's that gonna feel the next day? And are you even going to be able to remember anything that happened? I mean there is an amount of drinking that someone can do that takes all the fun away, right? Where you're sick, you're throwing up, you're blacked out, you're crying, you're stumbling down the street, whatever it is, and is that really fun?

Merrilee: 26:04

And is that what the goal is? And really, I think that's important is to, to help them to, to talk about and understand what their goal is. What are they trying to accomplish with drinking in a particular night?

Mike: 26:16

Yeah. I think that's I think that's good. I also think, like, blaring in, like, what the consequences could be potentially. Not in, like, waving your finger, you better watch out, but more like, hey. Listen.

Mike: 26:28

You know, this is these are these these are the facts. This is reality. You know? So as parents, do you think it's acceptable to just basically assume that your kids will probably make some mistakes, around alcohol while they're in the house still?

Merrilee: 26:45

I think, you know, it's acceptable, not only acceptable but, realistic to accept your kids are gonna make mistakes about everything, right? Yeah. You get people and that's kind of the the journey of life is no matter how, you know, well you're parented, how much guidance you get from your parents, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to make bad decisions and hopefully they're not irreversible. Hopefully they're, you know, a really bad hangover or a dented fender or something like that. Hopefully they're not things that, or you know, you know, getting caught cheating in school and getting a bad grade.

Merrilee: 27:15

You know, hopefully they're things that you can learn a lesson and bounce back from. I do think it's important, you know, like you said, you don't wanna wag your finger, but it's also important for them to know like, hey, there are bigger consequences sometimes. There are sometimes when you're taking this kind of risk like you're taking with drinking, there are some consequences that you don't get to bounce back from. You know and that, and I think it's important for them to know not to scare them but you know just to, to go into it you know with all the information they, they can get.

Mike: 27:42

Yeah. Do you think that the conversation's any different between somebody that's just coming of age and maybe going to parties at 15, 16, like we're talking about, and parents that have kids that are going away to college. Do you think any of that changes?

Merrilee: 27:58

Well, I think, you know, one of the the tricky things there is the parents not being able to be there to supervise. Like you said, there is a version of that where a teenager is drinking but they're drinking in their parents' home under their parents' supervision. Whereas if they're going to college, you know, who knows who they're drinking with, you know, especially depending on how far away the college is, you know, it's, it, that's really tricky. So, you know, hopefully those conversations have already happened. Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's kind of a scary thing, right?

Merrilee: 28:28

And I think it's something maybe that's why some parents don't talk about it is because it is scary to think, Wow, my my child is going off into the world by themselves and there are bad things that can happen and they're going to be having to make big decisions and probably making mistakes. So but I think that's that's that much more reason to talk about it.

Mike: 28:47

Yeah. So I have one more question before before we wrap up. This is something I think that is when it happens is really difficult. Parents don't know what to do, about this, and and it you sparked it when you said you don't know who they're around. So sometimes a a peer that's a bad influence can really, like, change the trajectory for another child.

Mike: 29:07

And as parents, that's a really difficult thing because you don't wanna be like, you can't hang out with them because it potentially could make it even worse. So let's say, like, there's somebody that just is, like, it's definitely your your kid was not, like, all into going out and partying. All of a sudden, they've there's this new friend that maybe came in town, and now they befriended him, and now they're kind of getting into all of this. Do you have any advice for parents when they're in that sort of predicament?

Merrilee: 29:38

I mean, I think

Mike: 29:40

That was a hard question to ask you, so I apologize for the loaded question.

Merrilee: 29:45

No. I mean, I think and where I would go with this, you know, if this was coming up with, you know, let's say a client of mine, you know, is is think about what it was like for you because I think we've all had people in our lives who were bad influences and how and we can look back and say, oh, you know, that person and how, and we can look back and say, oh, you know, that person really wasn't good for me or maybe I never would have done that or gotten into that if it hadn't been for this situation. So I think we've all been there. So I think, because I think when you're on the outside, you know, and it's your child, you can look at them with this person who's a bad influence and just just see them almost as a villain and just wanna say get away from that person, leave that person alone, they're bad. But when we think back to the people in our life who maybe were bad influences, maybe they weren't all bad people, but maybe, you know, so it's, you know, we don't want to, to vilify someone who's in our child's life because like you said that could just backfire.

Mike: 30:35

So

Merrilee: 30:35

it's just trying to be understanding and you know trying to, to teach as best you can, you know, teach your child to, to make their own decisions and to listen to their own instinct and their own gut and do what they feel like is right and to be enough of an individual that, you know, they they aren't too badly impacted by the behavior of someone else but then that's tough because they're not individuals yet, they're kids, they're growing. So that's just one of those those tough things where you can only, you know, try to to to help you and guide your child as best they as best as you can.

Mike: 31:10

Yeah. Totally. I mean, it is one of those difficult things. I mean, you wanna be there as a parent to protect, but I know, you know, within me that the only way I can really protect them is to arm them with all the the tools that they need to do it themselves and to make the right decisions because, I'm never I'm never gonna be able to be there at every moment when they need me. And so the only way to really do that is, I guess, you know, when they're making mistakes, try and work through it with them, show them the right way.

Mike: 31:44

Know that they're gonna make mistakes, and and hopefully just, you know, make them great adults.

Merrilee: 31:49

Mhmm. I mean, that's that's the hope. And I think one of the the toughest things for parents, because when you're when your kids are young, you get to tell them what to do. Right? You get to say, no more ice cream, you know, and you've got to get up at this time and you've got to go to school and, you know, and and then there there comes this gradual transition where they become their own people and they get to make their own decisions and you can try to keep telling them what to do and, you know, it might not be very effective and it could even backfire.

Merrilee: 32:19

So it's, I think that's one of the toughest things about being a parent is recognizing when that shift is starting to happen and allowing them the freedom to be human beings while also kind of age appropriately maintaining some control.

Mike: 32:33

Yeah. Well, my 12 year old going on 20 would think that I shouldn't tell her what what to do still, but luckily she's 12 so I do. So, well, this is amazing. Before we go, is there anything else that, like, you really wanted to, for us to chat about?

Merrilee: 32:50

No, I think, you know, if there's something that somebody takes away from this, either for their kids, if they have kids or even for themselves, it's that idea of what do you wish you'd known? You know, how would things be different if you'd had some information before you started drinking, how would it have changed things? And is it, is it too late? Can, can you change things now? Can you learn, you know, from some of your mistakes and go back and, and start from scratch and pretend like you knew the right way to drink the whole time?

Mike: 33:18

Yeah. I think that's such great advice. And it also is like, if you ask yourself that, the same question I mean, your kids are a mini version of you in for most people, So you'll probably be closer asking yourself what you wish you knew than you would be taking advice, you know, from somebody else. And so I I man, that's such great parting advice. So, Merilee, you are a rock star.

Mike: 33:39

Thanks for coming on today. I really appreciate it.

Merrilee: 33:42

Of course. I'm happy to anytime.

Mike: 33:44

Okay. Have a good day.

Merrilee: 33:45

You too. Take care.

Mike: 33:48

This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped 100 of 1000 of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in 90 days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.

Mike: 34:19

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