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A narrative podcast from two bird lovers (and friends) exploring all things bird.
I'm Hannah.
And I'm Cleo.
And you're listening to Birds on Birds.
Welcome back to Birds on Birds, everybody.
Hello.
I'm so excited to chat through all the stuff we have going on today, but also, I feel like we've both had some fun stuff going on in real life.
Yeah, and actually, I think it's been the 1st time that we haven't seen each other in longer than 7 days since we started this podcast, maybe.
So like the 1st time that I actually have so much to update you. Because I haven't actually seen you. Saving it for.. This moment.
I like write notes now to tell you about on the podcast, right?
Because otherwise we'll forget what we wanted to talk about literally.
I will every time I'm like, I don't have anything to talk about.
I know I did things.
I don't have anything to talk.
I don't want to just talk about school and sewing, but also people love your school and sewing updates.
I do have a small school update.
That's okay.
Unfortunately, but it's not, unfortunately.
It's not that bad, but it's just a smidge different than what I thought.
Yeah.
Oh, I think I know what you're talking.
Okay.
Well what's been going on?
What were you wanting to share?
Okay, things I wanted to talk about?
Where, what I wrote down that I think is really funny that I genuinely can't remember is Himalayan salt facts from your episode when you were like trying to figure out where...
Where Seesaw and layo salt came?
I looked it up.
Okay.
Can't remember anything about it.
The problem is, is that the only note I took says Himalayan salt facts.
Perfect.
So I'll get back to you on that.
But I do think there was something about it, like Himalaya caves that did create like salt bricks that were mined from like a cave situation.
Okay, so it's kind of similar to your grows on trees vibe.
It's like moisture. Moisture.
Maybe in the stalactite slagmites are like solved. Used to be the ocean because it rained for a 1000000 years once.
That's true.
And geology.
Dinosaurs, plug up plug for Netflix.
Or Netflix dinosaurs.
It's narrated by Morgan Freeman.
So, yeah, I looked it up to try to like tell you and bring to you the salt facts I learned, but I forgot all of them.
I've been sick again.
The thought that counts.
Yeah, yeah.
You have.
Which is a huge bummer because I didn't get sick for a really long time and then I got sick right on top of each other.
Yeah, like, I feel like there was only 2 weeks, maybe a month. At max 4 weeks apart.
And the 2nd time wasn't as bad.
No.
But still, just really annoying because I just have a lot going on at the moment.
So that was not fun, but I'm feeling better today.
I've got some prednisone in my system.
That shit goes kind of crazy. Makes me a little, a little loopy.
I've been staying up till like 2 in the morning every night because I can't find it.
The guy told you it was going to make you feel hyper and he was not wrong.
He was like, take it in the morning because you won't fall asleep.
And I have been taking in the morning and I still can't fall asleep.
It's powerful drug.
It's really powerful.
And I'm also going to get yoked because it's a steroid.
So I'm imagining I'm just going to be like so buff. Like the incredible Hulk.
Yeah, you did.
It was really good.
That's what that noise was.
You're really strong. So strong.
Really powerful.
It was a little intimidating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean that in a good way.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was nice.
So that's what's been going on truly.
I've just been like kind of pissed off that I'm sick again.
But also, it was a short week at work and I kind of forced me to just stay at home and finish my homework, which brings me to school, which brings me to that my summer courses, I thought, were all supposed to be 10 weeks.
Turns out they're all 8 week, which is good and bad.
Good because it will be done really fast.
Like I'm already on coming up to week three.
That's great.
That's crazy.
We love that.
Almost halfway there, right?
But also so much packed into a such...
I have like, this week I had to do, I think, 3 assignments for one class.
One was a paper, an assignment for another class that was a paper and a presentation that I had to record myself for the presentation.
And I had to like read like 5 chapters and like prep for, I'm in a negotiation and bargaining class, which was kind of fun.
And I had to prep for a live negotiation.
And like I just had, I had like 2 homework assignments.
I had to complete basically every single night to make sure that I was like up on my shit.
Um, Luckily, I feel like my classes are kind of fun and interesting this time, so that's good.
But yeah, definitely I was like, 0 gosh, this is a lot.
So I'm kind of just chugging through.
Yeah.
But by the time this episode comes out, I'll be like 3 weeks from being done with school.
I think so So even though I'm 3 weeks in right now.
I'll be like, it ends end of July.
That's pretty cool, which is not what you were told.
I was there when you were told.
Yes, you were in the car with me.
And that's what a normal semester is, but...
Yeah, I think my advisor doesn't know what she's talking about, which is nerve-racking because I applied for graduation.
So hopefully I should probably get in touch with the other lady.
She told me.
It did actually take me less than 5 minutes.
She said it would take you less than 5 minutes, even if you were going incredibly slow.
It did take me less than 5 minutes and she was like, she made it really obtuse how to sign up.
Hannah was in the car.
We were stuck in the blizzard when I had...
And the crane adventure.
Yeah, and I forgot that we were doing that and set up my call, but I really needed to talk to my advisor.
So Hannah was like my parent and just like sat through it with me.
But yeah, she also was like, we don't know how we're going to sign you up for this new agreed on degree thing where there's going to be less core credits required because originally the whole thing she was telling me was like, oh, no matter what, you're not going to graduate and fall.
And then she was like, actually, though, you could pool this fun move and made it seem like it was going to be this like crazy hack when actually my degree program just voted to have less core credits and all I had to do was say that I wanted to opt into that, which also ended up being really easy.
And so I called her back to be like, yeah, you told me I needed to call back to ask how to opt in and she was like, 0 yeah, you just send an email to these people and then they'll opt you into it.
And I was like, okay.
Thank you.
Um, so I probably should follow up with my actual, like, uh, degree advisor because just to make sure that I'm to double check that everyone's on the same page.
Yeah, because I'm not sure she's on anyone's page.
Right.
I don't know what page she's on.
I don't know what page she's on either.
So I'm in the middle of that, but the other thing I wanted to talk to you about, the main thing that I've been waiting to talk to you about is obsession.
I'm obsessed with wanting to know what you thought.
I 1st of all, I loved it.
Second of all, gave me so much anxiety to sit through.
It's not a comfortable movie.
If you go in and you're like, whatever.
I can handle horror.
It's very different. Very psychological and it just makes you like...
But not in like a, it's like a creepy way.
It's like, it feels much more realistic. Than some of the psychological horrors that I feel like we see nowadays.
No, yeah. When we walked out, Stuart was like, oh man, do you ever just walk out of a movie and feel grateful for the life you have?
It's an interesting take, but thank you, I guess.
He was like, I think I just didn't realize how, like, afraid of being in a possessive relationship, I was. Which I thought was also a really interesting thought.
And obviously he knows that she was under a spell and like whatever.
But at the end of the day, like that is a lot of what's happening.
But I just feel like the subliminal messaging that maybe some people are picking up from probably mostly fem people are picking up them and not a ton of other people maybe are, is the whole thing surrounding this idea of like the guy who falls in love with a friend, he doesn't even really know that well and doesn't actually care if she is like consenting.
Consenting or even like acting like herself because the idea of being with that person is so in this like limerince and thing that like he can't move past it, right?
Like, he knows there's something wrong with her.
He knows that this is not normal.
He knows she's not acting like herself, but it doesn't matter.
And I was also listening to another one of my favorite podcasts, which I've talked about, but too scary didn't watch because I wanted to hear their tape.
It was really good.
They also do an interview with Bear, the guy, actor who plays Bear and the actor who plays.
Oh no, not the main girl, but the friend, Helen.
Is that her name?
Shoot. Really like her.
I want to get this right.
Her name is Megan Lawless. Her real name.
Oh, yeah.
I forget her name in the movie right now.
And I looked up how to pronounce the main girl's name because I was so blown away by her acting and I...
I just need everybody.
Oscar buzz about it.
Like, she does things that I've never seen like a Scream Queen do.
Like, she is a scream queen in a way that, like, I think is the next generation and it's fucking awesome.
Yep.
But her name is Indie Navarretti.
Yep. Spelled like indie in I-N-D-E-E. No.
I don't know what I...
I-N-D-E. And then Navarette.
Yeah, but it's pronounced Navaretti.
Yeah, yeah, there's Oscar Buzz, apparently, about her for that performance.
But, like, they paint her face, apparently, during those scenes where she's like in the shadow and you can, you wonder.
You're like, because her expression looks so different and haunted in those like shadow scenes.
I guess I should say here, like, spoiler alert, spoiler, if you haven't seen it, maybe like skip forward.
I don't know, 5 minutes or something, like, give me a 2nd.
Because I've got things to say.
Yeah.
But I listen to them retell it too.
And the girl who recaps it, she watched it twice.
And a couple of the things that I picked up on but didn't totally pick up on the 1st time was like when they're having their 1st sex scene, she's just like flat and like totally out of it.
Like she's making moaning sounds, but she's definitely not in the moment, you can tell that it's like really not. Where his, like, pants aren't even fully off.
Like, it just, it doesn't, and it's not in like a, oh, we just were overcome in passion kind of way.
Like it reads is very uncomfortable, like not natural.
Yeah, it's strange.
It's very odd.
I think you're supposed to feel like, oh, and it definitely made me feel right. Odd, but I think that I didn't read it as like rape, really. Which is on me the 1st time I watched it, but then the 2nd time thinking about it.
I was like, 0 yeah, fully.
Like this whole movie is about rape and consent.
And and the other thing that I think that they brought up, which I didn't totally pick up on, I thought he was just ignoring this, but when she's like, my dad is sick and he gets all upset and then he's telling their other 2 friends about this.
Um, they're like the one that she never talks to and he's surprised because he doesn't actually know that about her.
Like, he doesn't actually know who she is.
And it's just like he's literally just fallen in love with this idea of this girl.
Like, he really does not know her well.
Well, and I think she's been a pretty good friend to him.
Like, and the very super scene, he's like pretending to tell her that he loves her. He's like practicing what he wants to say.
Right.
And he's like listing off all these times, she's like been there for him and like every song.
By the way, I came in right at the end of the cat ODing, which was rough.
Oh shit.
So when I re-listened to the recap I found out about that.
So when I 1st watched it, I didn't see that.
Okay.
I thought it just opened to the cat ODing and I was like, motherfucker.
I mean, basically, like, it's just this quick scene in a diner where he's like listing off the reasons he's in love with her.
But none of them have to do with her as a person.
Oh, that's interesting.
Which is also interesting.
Yeah, that is really interesting.
They get into this in the podcast, which I was like, that's such a great point because I thought maybe he was just like, who cares if she's not close with their dad?
Maybe it's still upsetting.
Like, I thought he knew, but like, which is true.
That's a valid point.
I feel like the way that now that I'm rethinking about it, though, that all makes sense.
But the one thing, the main thing that I think every single person should pick up on.
And if you're not picking up on this one line in this one scene.
Okay.
You're missing the whole point.
And that's the scene when he is like in bed with her, she's asleep.
They've just had like a whole weird breakout blowout once again because that's kind of the point.
But...
She's he's like sneaking out to go meet the other girl.
I'm so sorry, Megan Lewis.
I cannot remember your character's name, but I can remember your name.
And she, he's sneaking out and she whispers, she's like, bear, bear, and he turns around and he's like, oh, yeah, I'm just, I'm just going to the bathroom real quick and she's like, no, bear, it's me.
And it's her coming back.
It's actually her.
She's like speaking through this wish thing.
Yeah, and he's like, what?
And she's like, she's asleep.
Don't wake her up.
You have to kill me.
Right?
And they're going back and forth.
And you just see in this moment his face darkens.
Yes.
And he says, what's so bad about being with me?
And she goes, you've never been with me, bear.
No.
Sorry, that was so loud.
But like that, that line. Every time I talk about it, I get goosebumps because it's that, it is that part that like he was more interested, even with her being a fucking psycho, even when he's in the car and he's like, can I change my wish, like, I want her to be like her, but I want her to still be in love with me, but like, he's being so selfish.
And he's also taking it personally.
If you love someone, I was talking to McKenna, my friend McKenna about this, and also Stuart, and anybody I could, who will let me talk to them about this.
If you love somebody like genuinely loves somebody and they were acting the way that this bitch was acting, which was crazy and so good.
She, the actress.
It's like, it's unreal.
It's insane level of, well, and she just does this, she does so many things in such a very short amount of time.
Like, it's only like an hour and a half movie.
Totally. Fucking nails it.
It's incredible.
And anyway, so like, I, but if that was me and I was in a situation where somebody I loved was overtaken and acting crazy and hurting themselves and then they were like, I'm back, I'm here.
I'd be like, 0 my God, are you okay?
I'm so sorry.
I didn't know this was going to happen.
I just loved you so much.
I really wanted a chance to be with you.
I had no idea that this was gonna happen.
I'm really sorry.
Like, how do we get out of it?
But instead, he's like pissed off that the person inside, like his actual person that he's quote unquote in love with would rather die than be with him, basically.
And she's like, you've never been with me.
You're with this thing.
That's like possessed. Possessed me.
And Sue and I have been having a lot of dialogue about whether or not she's been present for everything or whether she's in some like nether region, like the actual like character.
And it's hard to know for sure because she comes back to herself. Like, yeah, it kind of seems like she's at least aware.
She understands.
She, I think it's, I mean, and then like during the phone call when it's like, do you want to talk to her?
Which is also really fun.
Like, there's some very funny moments.
Yeah.
And then it's just her screaming, bloody murder.
So that makes me feel like, and then in combination with the very end, she like comes back into her body.
And she's very upset.
But there's also a lot going on in that scene.
So there's lots to be upset about.
We couldn't possibly go listen to the podcast if you want a whole recap because I could do it, but it would take all of our time.
No, it's not birds on birds.
Also, side note, Megan Lawless is Sarah.
Sarah, that's her name.
That's right.
Okay.
But yeah, anyway, I do think she's at least like aware of what's going on.
Yes.
Also, when they're in the car, but has no bodily control.
And, like, Sarah's the one who's had the crush on him the whole time and he's like immediately like, well, maybe you like me and I was just like, I hate you.
I hate him so much I hate you so much. Pissing me off so bad.
Like, he's a really cool character.
Um, in the sense that you kind of get the ick from him from the beginning, because you're just like, what's going on with him?
And like, he's very cowardly because, like, she literally like demands him to tell her, do you like me?
Like, why are you being so weird?
Okay, also in the car, she's like, Sarah really likes you.
And I'm like, listen, nobody has ever said that to a boy or anyone they have a crush on. Asking if they like someone else.
Like the way that she's asking them.
Like, you only do that when you're like trying to hype up one of your friends to someone.
Like, it's so obvious in that moment.
Oh, I don't know.
There was just so much depth.
It's really so much depth.
Also, even his fucking wish is so shitty and selfish and ridiculous.
He doesn't just wish that she loves him or that she wants to be with him.
He says, I wish that Nikki Freeman loved me more than anybody in the fucking world.
Yes, which is very like child like that.
Yes, exactly.
She acts like someone who loves you more than anyone in the fucking world.
Like she acts crazy.
It's very childish. Very interesting.
So anyway, all that is to say that I really think that it's just like a very cool, powerful movie.
And yes, you could totally take out of it like the parts that are hitting you over the head, which is the idea of being in a possessive relationship.
And like I had a friend who went and seen saw it who was in like a hard relationship that was very possessive and she was like, it was really hard for me to watch because it reminded me of things I've been through.
And so I don't want to get rid of that because I do think that's part of it.
But I think what makes it so fun is that the real horror is what she's going through.
And like what is happening to her because of everything and the way that she ends up acting and being because of this wish that somebody made selfishly.
Anyway.
And I recently heard as well, which I think this will be really fun. And to try to like wrap this up because otherwise I can talk about it forever.
And offline, we should talk more about it because I have more to say.
But they were saying that there's a possibility that he's going to sell the rights to the like magic wish wand situation and make like an anthology series where other directors can create their own versions based off different wishes, which I think is really cool because he could have just taken that and made like a final destination situation where he just continuously put out movies.
But instead, he's like, oh, yeah, you can have the wand.
And then other people can use that as their plot, which I think will be a lot like Cabinet of Curiosities, like Yermo del Toro vibes.
Yeah.
Where it's like, well, I have an idea, but I want someone else to direct it and write the story.
But it's like his IP is this like little magic wand thing.
And I think that could be really fun because we could see some like very interesting, like, fun things, you know, like in the podcast too scary didn't watch.
They were like, yeah, someone could like wish for fame or like wish for like, you know, like it could, you could just make it like very different and very interesting all surrounding this one little thing and with different directors could just have a totally different tone.
So I kind of hope that happens.
And apparently the budget was like 750,000.
Yeah, it was.
And they grossed like over 100 million.
Like, it's it's made so much money, apparently.
And like, it's not like you, you will watch it and you're like, yeah, damn, this is a really low budget.
No, not at all.
It doesn't happen. Are doing a lot with very little scenes. Like they, I think they only film in like, you know, 3 or 4 locations.
Like it, it just, yeah, it's facing the same spots, pretty much.
And a lot of a very small cast of, like, basically unknown people.
It's basically 4 people.
Yeah, who are not really in anything else.
The interview, too, with the guy who plays bear and the guy who or the girl who plays Sarah is like so sweet.
They're both like, we had so much fun. Everybody was such good friends.
Sometimes we just show up on set to be like, how are you doing today?
Miss you, like just hearing them talk.
It endeared me to the actor who played bear because you really don't like him.
You don't like him at the end.
You're mad.
And he's still a coward at the end.
Oh, anyway, we can't.
We can't.
We cannot get into it more because we will simply take...
I could talk about it for hours because I really think they're just a lot of.
It's worth seeing.
It's totally worth seeing.
Please go see it.
I've been wanting to talk to you about this for so long.
You saw it way before me.
Only like a week or two.
Yeah, well, but then we didn't see each other for a while since that.
So, like, I haven't been able to talk to you about it, and I just, like, I loved it. Really loved it.
I just like, it's a commentary on so many things in a way that, like, I don't know that I've seen done before.
Totally.
Which is kind of crazy because, like, it is a male director.
Yeah, that's not to say that like men can't be in tune with those things, but to write a character that's so like, no, I'm the nice guy without like realizing that you're actually the villain who like just has a crush on all their friends and like is never actually a nice guy.
Have you heard how old he is?
Do you know?
Isn't he like 20?
He's 26.
Yeah.
There was and also the guy who created, he was like a YouTube horror star.
The guy who played back in did Backrooms YouTube videos.
He created back rooms, he also was like a YouTube guy and he just turned 20.
The guy who did backroom?
Yes.
These guys are, I haven't either.
And somebody I know saw it.
And I heard it wasn't as, well, I don't think it's as good as obsession.
I'm not sure that anything will be this year, but No, it was very unique.
I do think for being 20, somebody was like, he's someone to watch.
Like, I think he's gonna be on the come up.
So I don't know.
I think all the coolest shit right now is happening in horror. Years old.
Kane Parsons.
Oh, yeah, yeah, he just turned 21 then.
Like I, I think horror is doing what the movie industry has not done for a long time, which is create like genuine, real, new creative IP. That I feel like the movie industry desperately needs.
Oh my gosh.
Like, how many times have we seen a fucking, like, live action recreation.
Oh, my God.
Disney movie. Or another Marvel universe situation.
I am excited about the newest one with Tom Honk, because I love the Tom Holland ones, but still...
Do we need more?
We don't.
No.
So, yeah, I just think horror right now, it's got it like that.
It's got a lot of like really cool up and coming people.
I didn't see Isgod is, but I know that that movie was also like praised very highly and was like a breakout. Also a breakout writer who wrote it as a play and then it got picked up as a movie.
Which is similar to Forbidden Fruits, which is...
I didn't see that one, but I...
It's like bunny-esque, right?
Yeah, it's like Mona A-Wad's book, bunny, but like mall girls instead of academic girls.
Right.
Which is so funny because I do feel like our generation, like you would hang out at the mall.
I can't tell you how many hours I have spent at the mall as a team.
And like, I'm excited because also Sinners one, an Oscar, which broke like the, in my opinion, the curse that's been on horror movies because there's been a lot of really amazing ones that never got the attention they deserved because the academy is scared of horror.
Um, but I'm really hoping that, I mean, Indie Navaretti is like, I truly, I remember texting Cleo after him being like, I don't know how to explain to you like how fucking next level this actress is.
It was so it was just so incredible.
They also, you should really listen to the podcast and you should listen to the interview because a lot of what they talk about too with the guy who directed it.
I forget his name, even though you just said it.
Curry Barker.
Apparently he had like screenboarded, sorry, mood boarded, like every scene.
Like he had a really, really strong vision for like every scene and was like really clear about like what he wanted to look and how he wanted it to be and the vibes and like a detailed list of the shots that he wanted to do and like all this different stuff.
And he apparently also would let them like see their own takes, which is apparently like unheard of in the industry, which I think is kind of crazy because that is kind of crazy.
You would hope that they would be able to watch their own, like, it's a lot of trust, but they basically say, like, a lot of the times when you're an actor, you're flying blind.
Like the director is directing you and you're just kind of hoping it's coming across the right way based on the like asks that they're making of you, but he was like bringing them in on like every single step.
Yeah, and that, I feel like, really helped create a cohesion in the cast.
Like, you do feel like it is so, you don't feel like it's meticulously planned out when you're watching it, but like knowing that makes sense because it feels so coherent.
And like so well thought out that it does and everybody does a great job.
Like everybody's character is so good. In every scene.
Even the like party scene, like the random party scene with a bunch of random people.
When she does the poem.
Yeah, it's so it's not...
I cannot.
Just go see it.
No, you gotta go see it.
And if you don't like that, go listen to Too Scary didn't watch, they do a full recap.
They'll explain it, scene by scene.
Yeah, if you're too freaked out.
I will say it's it's freaky and we've talked about how uncomfortable it is.
However, I wouldn't say, like, there's definitely gory moments. But it's not the same as like what you would normally think of with horror.
It's not gore, but also like get gory.
It gets real gory.
But also, I think the corner stuff.
Like, if you've seen talk to me, that like creepy scene where like the dead lady is coming out of the corner and then she like crawls up to the bed and licks his foot, like, it's like that, I think, for a lot of people, like, I know my friend McKenna, who hates horror movies, will not watch Obsession, but she'll listen to the podcast and she'll talk about it with me, but like she will not watch that because the corner scenes would freak her out.
Like when she's like going backwards and being a little creepy, like fast.
The way she moves her body.
I think they cut frames and they did some in reverse and then like imposed them in.
Because it does not look human.
No, I think they genuinely did some, like, interesting, like, camera tricks there to make it more interesting.
And when she's in those dark scenes, they do do her makeup and she apparently looks insane and, like, they specifically make her, like, in the dark look like a ghoul, like overly happy, like this, like, caricature.
Apparently this whole thing too is called TRAD horror, which is like this new genre of horror that's like TRADWife, like horror situations.
Like, um, How is this Trad wife?
Well, think like he's trapped her in like a, I love you more than anything else.
Now, all I want is to be with you and to have you and to do all this stuff.
She like tapes the door closed with the duct tape scene was so good.
And then he, but then it gets kind of funny because he's like trying to...
She's like, if you can't get it open, maybe...
I wish I was with you today.
I wish I was on the schedule.
And like, but he's like slowly being like, no, no, I think it's coming undone and it's like slowly ripping from the wall and you're like a little bit laughing.
Oh good.
And it creates like tension.
Oh, I just, yeah.
I want to see it again, but also I don't.
Yeah.
That's how I feel.
But I do think I like that it was really deep, but it was also a lot of fun.
Like, I saw bring her back.
I thought bring her back was really deep.
I would not say that was like a fun time.
I genuinely think that's a great movie.
It's not even that I was freaked out.
It just was like so depressing.
Like at every turn.
There were no lighthearted moments. Really at all and bring her back.
Maybe one.
And then it immediately gets fucked up again.
This movie genuinely was like a lot of fun to watch, even though it was hard.
There's like laugh out loud moments.
Even if you're laughing, like, uncomfortably.
It's still like laugh out loud, ridiculous, what the fuck, but also just like genuinely funny.
It also feels very of the time.
Like, if...
Well that's the trad horror thing.
Yeah.
Okay.
Because that's like on a weird comeback of like all these like young girls influencing me like, I want to be a stay at home mom who listens to my husband.
I just started for us and everything.
I just started this book called Yesteryear.
Oh, I've heard about this.
I think Andy is going to be.
Tell me more about what you've been up to, and we can, yeah.
Transition, transition.
We have to.
Well, speaking of transitioning.
Nope.
Not at all.
But there's this book called The Yester Year.
I'm pretty sure the reason I heard about it is because Anne Hathaway, like, is going to be in the movie they're making of the book.
I've seen it everywhere and I'm not even on social media.
The main actress.
But anyway, it's, uh, let me see who it's by.
Caro, Claire Burke, C-A-R-O, is the 1st name.
It's called yesteryear, all one word, and it's about a TRAD wife, literally.
Um, who's like very rich and owns this like 500 acre farm in Idaho.
Oh, Idaho.
Somehow she ends up trapped in the time period that she's like trying to, um, emanate.
Yeah.
Recreate in her TRAD wife influencer status.
She ends up back in the actual time that she, like her property was built or whatever.
So in like the 1850s.
Um, I'm only like a quarter of the way through, so I don't quite know why that happened, but she's already having a really bad time.
It's very interesting and funny.
Um, because it, it has a lot of commentary about why she ended up doing what she's doing and how she hates modern women and.
It's really cool.
I'm excited to see how it turns out Yeah I've heard a lot of buzz about that book.
I am also excited to check that out.
I do think there's this very weird, like, the, the, like, sort of counterculture right now is this idea of, like, being a Tradway, and I'm just like, I, um, well, okay.
Like, don't get me wrong.
Staying home all the time sounds and not having a job.
Does sound sick, but not for that.
No.
No.
They're doing it because they want to give their lives to God and be a good wife to their husband.
Yeah, when people are like, my husband will vote for vote for both of us.
Like, the husband should vote for the whole house.
I'm like, the fuck?
What the fuck?
Do you genuinely believe that?
It's just not.
It's crazy.
So, yeah, I kind of love this new. Exploration of like TRAD horror.
And that's the other thing about horror that I love, though, is that it always is like a really like you could look at any decade and like you could find some horror movies that are very commentary on like any of the times, which is I love.
But yes, tell me more about everything else you've been up to.
We've got yesteryear.
What else?
Yestery year.
Um, and I also just finished Searcy and the song for Achilles because I'm trying to prepare for the Odyssey movie, which I am very excited for.
I just want to say this out loud.
I think it's going to be 2 parts.
I think they're going to cut it like Dune.
I think you're going to get to the end and you're going to find out that it's going to be like to be continued.
That's my prediction.
I wouldn't be surprised just because it is quite an epic story. And both of the books. Is it not?
Yeah, both of the books that I just read are only a section of the actual Odyssey.
Um, But I just saw like a new trailer the other day in the theater and I was like, damn, it does look really interesting.
The cast is so stacked.
I can't quite tell who's playing who besides Tom Holland is Odysseus's son.
Yeah, I didn't pick up on that.
And I mostly only know that because he goes, my dad's coming back and then Robert Pattinson is like, your daddy, is it gonna do anything to stop me?
And I just love Robert Pennson.
His new like character acting like voice acting thing is so funny to me.
Like Mickey 17, he puts on this fucking weird voice.
Have you haven't seen that?
One of my favorites.
He has the range that I wish every actor would have.
But, um, just because he's doing all sorts of weird shit that is not cohesive.
But anyway.
Anne Hathaway isn't that as well.
She's in everything right now, yeah.
She's got to be the busiest bitch.
It does look really cool.
I'm excited.
And, um, I don't think I realized how much of these Greek stories, like, are shaped how our society functions and stuff. Don't know.
Say more.
I don't know.
It's just like the way the gods function and they're so fucked up and stuff and like they're just doing whatever the fuck they want with whoever they want and also there's just way more gods than I understood.
Totally.
I thought there was like Olympus and that's the end.
But Circe was like, 0 my gosh, there's so many gods.
Even Achilles is like half god, his mom is a sea nymph, which I didn't realize nymphs were gods.
Yeah, I think they're considered demi gods, maybe?
Yeah, it's or something.
Because, like, seriously doesn't age.
She's like permanently at whatever age.
I don't know.
It's...
It is really interesting.
I mean, that's basically how they explained everything.
Yeah. Back then was just through this idea of like gods and storytelling.
It was like physics and like why things happened. Why rivers existed, why the sun came out, you know, and why people were the way they were.
Like, why did men develop ego?
And, um, you know, all of that different stuff.
So it makes sense that there are so many.
But yeah, when you start to really, that was like one of my weird hyperfixations at one point, which I think most people go through like a mythology phase and I wanted to get like the encyclopedia books that all matched from Barnes and Noble or whatever, this was a long time ago.
But when you really try to start like picking up on all of it, it's a lot.
Yeah, it is. A lot.
I had like this really cool illustrated Greek mythology book as a kid that I would have my mom like read stories from at bedtime.
So that was all I associated with it, and that's probably why I was limited to like Mount Olympus, because it was just those like core gods.
But also we had a cat when I was born named Hestia, which is the goddess of the hearth.
But she didn't like me.
She only liked my dad.
RIP has to...
There's probably some myth that we could write in that, some connection that we could do like a full Greek mythology explanation for just in that alone.
That's so funny Oh, I did see stop that train.
Oh, Happy Pride.
Happy Pride.
Although, not when we release this.
But you can still be proud.
Oh for sure.
Pride is all year.
And you should see stop that train if it's still around. Rented or whatever.
I guess.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's a lot of fun.
If you ever saw the movie Airplane, which is like an 80s comedy.
Um, it's like that, but not 80s problematic, weird, um, sexist, racist humor, which is cool.
Um, and it's trains instead of planes.
And it's all mostly drag queens or gay people.
Which we love.
It was a lot of fun.
I laughed out loud a lot.
Yeah, you were saying it was just you and one other guy.
You were both just laughing.
Other gay guy?
I'm, I mean, I'm pretty sure the, um, the vibe was...
Yeah, yeah.
And he was just laughing like so much and it was really fun and cute.
Oh.
Because, like, I don't know. In a situation like that where it's like 2 of you in a theater.
Totally.
It could be weird, a theater.
It can be a weird time when there's 2 of you in the piano.
Okay, Sebastian from the live action little merch.
I never saw it.
Oh it was not good.
I remember making fun of any accent.
It was just a lot.
It was a lot.
We went to see it because I do think the hate that the girl got for being a black little mermaid was insane.
So we went and saw it.
I love Hailey Bailey.
I think she's awesome.
She did great. Fall asleep. During the movie, which I never do.
So I do feel like that says something.
I fully fell asleep for the whole 2nd half.
Melissa McCarthy is the is Ursula, right?
Also, Aquafina plays scuttle.
And there's like a part where scuttle wraps, if I'm not mistaken.
And that really threw me off.
That really...
Yeah, scuttle.
Okay.
Yeah.
It just was a lot.
And I'm sure for a kid, it was a lot of fun.
But for an adult, I was just like, this is overwhelming.
I think I may have been hungover too.
So it felt really like a fever dream for me.
And then I fell asleep. One of the 1st live actions. Don't know.
I don't like the live actions.
I'm not.
Yeah, they're not. Not good.
They're not good.
Especially something like mermaid.
I'm sorry.
There's just too many animals that you're trying to make into these weird human voiced animals.
No. Stop it Yeah, I also think we're at the point too, where we get so like, I'm so caught up on the original soundtrack that when they try to add new things or make the song sound different.
It's just like upsetting rather than being fun.
Nostalgia is a powerful tool that should be used wisely.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
But, you know, for the kids, I loved it and I think that the idea that, like, she shouldn't be black is crazy.
That is like, the hate that came out about that was just insanity to me.
It was.
So that's that's what I'll say about that.
But yes, I, it sounds like you've been having a lot of fun.
I know there are a lot of other things that we've both seen that we have to talk about, but we have so much fun stuff to talk about today.
Yeah, which I'm excited about.
That's a good doping point.
Yeah, we'll segue.
We'll beep, beep.
Stop that train.
We're getting on the train of...
Speaking of songs, bird vocalizations.
Speaking of trains, trains, and birds.
Chutu.
Ride right over, vocalization town.
Next stop, bird vocalizations.
Period.
That one was pretty good, actually.
I wish we thought of that first.
We really took a minute to get there. Took us a second.
Sometimes good things take time.
But yes, to set the stage a little bit.
A lesson.
Hannah and I got to go to this really cool.
It was feminist bird month or something like that, which I didn't know existed.
And I think is awesome, to be clear.
I just had no clue that that was the thing we went to was part of that.
But we went to a speech by a professor and doctor of the scientist, not of the people.
No, Dr. Of Ornithology.
Right, Dr. Rit, not a doctor, but also a doctor.
It's a confusing trying to explain that.
But I think everyone who listens to this is not stupid, so I don't know why I'm trying to explain it that hard.
But she was amazing.
She was she is a professor in Colorado and she studies bird vocalizations and we basically got to go to a presentation and learn a bunch of stuff at a library.
And so we have prepared for you a little bit about what we learned during that time.
Yeah.
Um, we took notes and I also like recorded it um, so that I could like play back later and see what stuff I missed.
Because Hannah forgot her little tiny notebook that she brings everywhere, which is adorable because Hannah has this little like flipping notebook and a little pen that she's just called.
It's waterproof paper so I can take it with me birding.
My husband said, when are you going to be so deep in water that you need water?
And I said, please don't judge me.
We should get we should get high waters.
I do kind of want waiters.
So that we can like...
Why did I call them high?
I don't want to show like pants that are riding up on your ankle.
Like Caprice kind of?
Like the opposite of what you're looking for in waiters.
Yeah, waiters is what...
But I do want to like get in the water.
Oh, we should get some.
It's summertime.
We're getting in the water. The birds.
And then also.. The fish and the different creatures in the ocean.
Did I tell you that when you study fish, there is a technique, and I'm so sorry to already put us off track, but I had a class a couple years ago where I was in like a biology lab and I was obsessed with my TA.
She was so sweet and so cool and she studied fish and bugs.
She was obsessed with bugs.
And she had a crested gecko, which I loved.
But she was studying fish.
She got really into ichthyology.
And one of the techniques is that you like lightly like electrify the water so that you stunned the fish.
You basically just stunn them all and then you go get them.
I just think about that sometimes.
Like not to kill them, but it just like kind of puts them in a state for a minute so that you can go and like catch them and observe them.
I just thought that was really interesting.
That's fascinating. Just wanted to share that.
Yeah.
I would be curious to know more about that.
I'll try to find more information.
But it was Dr. Lauren Benedict, um, as Cleo mentioned, she's a professor at UNC, which is University of Northern Colorado.
Better not.
Unk.
Um, which is funny because that's now something very different.
But she, specifically, like, Cleo said, is a doctor of ornithology and has been a professor for a long time, but she has studied vocalizations and kind of songbirds specifically, it seems like, is kind of her specialty. Totally.
Um, So she opened the conversation showing us spectrograms, which we, I feel like, have mentioned before.
But the visualization of the songs and sounds that birds make.
Yeah, so if you go in the Merlin app, It's like if you're looking at the sounds page or if you're on allaboutbirds.com, you will see a spectro, is it spectrogram spectrograph.
I always, spectrographs are the visual or spectrograph a completely different thing.
I know.
Actually, not. Than a spectrogram.
Anyway, it's the little, like, it almost looks like bad sheet music.
Like, it's just got these little, like, spikes or different, like, dark places and light places and that just basically maps out the sounds that birds make in a way that looks more tangible, like, gives them a picture that you can follow.
Okay, so a spectrograph is the instrument or hardware that is used to capture and analyze the sound waves.
So think of it as the spectrograph is the camera and the spectrogram is the photo that the camera produces.
Got it.
Okay, perfect.
Which makes sense because they sound extremely similar.
They sound extremely similar.
And I'm pretty sure that a spectrograph can be used in a lot of situations.
Like, I think you can get them on your heart or like...
Yeah, I think it's similar to what you get when you're like listening to your baby's heartbeat with like a, um, like an ultrasound.
Yeah.
Got it.
Okay, interesting.
Yeah.
So so anyway, it basically creates a beautiful photo.
It's not beautiful.
It looks like smudged sheet music.
Like somebody was trying to write notes, but didn't totally know what shapes they were supposed to be.
Sometimes they're like crying and so there's like a running, darker lines on the page.
Yep.
But it is really cool and it is a really interesting way, especially when you see them different birds making the same call or sounds or song side by side.
How similar they look and repetitive.
Exactly.
Well, and we like, that 1st bird ID class we went to way back in the day.
He talked about like being able to look at spectra grams and tell what bird it was before even playing the sound because of seeing it so much and knowing how to read it.
So with this visual, the time that it is taking is on the X axis, and then the frequency is on the Y axis, the loudness of the call or sound or song is indicated by the darkness of the smudge.
Yep.
And the pitch is like how you would expect it, like higher, lower on the actual...
The frequency.
Which we did also, someone at some point asked about, um, kind of the difference in how birds can hear sound.
Yeah, because we all know, or maybe we don't all know, but a lot of people have talked before about, like, dogs being able to hear things differently than human.
So like a very high pitched sound humans might not hear, but a dog, it's like hurting their ears, that kind of thing.
So someone had asked her at some point during the conversation about like, what about birds?
And she said that as far as animals are concerned, they are one of the ones that hear and Their frequency is very similar to ours.
So what they hear and, I guess, just what they hear.
Like they don't they don't hear better.
And they don't, like, the tone at which they are chirping.
Yes.
And the way we are hearing that is very similar to how another bird would hear that, which is unlike a lot of other animal situations.
Yeah.
Or even with birds and seeing, like they see a whole nother range of colors.
I think we've mentioned this before, but like the iridescence that we see on birds.
It's like a full rainbow that another bird would see.
Whereas for us, it's like maybe like 3 to 4 colors.
Right.
So it's not like that with their hearing with what they're, what frequency they're on is very similar to ours.
Yeah, because I think they were wondering like, oh, are they that loud because they can't hear that well or because they can hear that well.
And it was like, no, it's probably because they're either trying to alert or how much of a distance it's gone or like whatever it is and it doesn't actually have to do much with like the hearing.
The only difference that she said, though, was to point out owls.
That's true.
Owls and I think some other raptors.
They have more of that echolocation.
And they have genuine ears, some of them.
Yes.
I think they're the only bird with like real...
When when I say genuine ears, I just mean like not just 2 holes on their heads, they have like.. Have little like amplifiers. Little like sticky, upy ears.
Sticky upppies.
Yeah, exactly.
The scientific.
The scientific term is sticky.
Sticky up ears and not just holes in the side of your head.
Like your dad would say when you didn't listen.
He's like going in one ear and out, the other.
That's the only real, like, as far as we heard in the class, at least, that have are known for having much better hearing.
And then maybe some other raptors, but she kind of was just like speculating a little on that.
And I think, again, part of that is also that her specialty is more focused on these birds that are specifically like songbirds.
And so she knows some about owls and raptors as far as they're hearing, but they're not specialized.
Yeah.
So she's opened with like, showing the spectrogram of a canyon wren, which when she played it, like half the class knew it was a canyon wren.
So I don't know about you, but I was like, oh no.
Well, we not only that, but we walked in and she was like, I've seen a lot of you here before.
A lot of you look familiar and I was like, no way, that's cool.
Crazy that like all the same people are just coming here.
I will say it was mostly femme women, people and women.
Yeah.
A couple like random old couples.
Some of the oldest, or we were some of the youngest, for sure.
Definitely, but this class had more younger, like single or like friend group of girls.
Our little row.
It was like a cute little row of people our age.
Yeah, exactly.
And then like, mildly older people and like one old guy who was eating a sandwich out of his lunch box.
It was really cute.
So cute.
With his hearing aid that I saw him turn up a couple times and I was like, I love that you're here.
But yeah, it was it was more young and more packed than the one that we went to.
Yes.
It was the busiest class that we've seen.
And the biggest space because normally we've been going to like this one space that the Denver Audubon specifically has where it's like a classroom and then like it goes into this like nature area.
But this one was in like a library room conference room and it was pretty big.
Yeah.
It was it was full. 40 people maybe, which was cool.
I don't know.
I feel like normally we get like 10 at a time.
So she played the Canyon Ren sound, which, again, I was like, 0 no, are we the only ones here?
Don't know the sound of a canyon wren?
We will someday.
Oh, someday.
And then we'll be like, oh, these new girls who don't know the canyon wren classic.
Um, but then she played a call or a recording of a Turkish whistle language, which she didn't identify as that until people had tried to kind of guess what it was, assuming it was a bird or some other animal, but it was actually a Turkish whistle language made by people, which currently like still being used in some places.
Yes.
It was really crazy.
It was like a modern recording.
And she would tell us what it said after too.
I wish we had something to play, but I'm not even good at whistling, but it would be like, and then they'd be like, I want tomatoes.
Yes, like at the market, yeah. At the market.
And it was just the way that the whistling was done would communicate that to someone.
And it was developed for a way to like carry complex speech of like important things across like a whole valley or a whole like desert of the place that they were in.
So, um, So basically she was trying to set up this idea that like birds are similar to this Turkish whistle language where they have things that they are trying to tell you with their specific calls, their vocalizations, have different messages they're trying to convey.
Yep.
So she identified like these 8 specific characters, or not characteristics, categories. Categories, yeah.
The things these communications can fall under.
So one is like, where am I?
My location for birds.
This is all just for birds.
She only talked about the Turkish whistling was just at the beginning.
The rest is going to be about birds from here on out.
No more Turkish whistle, but it does sound fascinating.
So go look it up.
Um, so location was the 1st category, 2nd category is species identity, so specific calls that would be unique to that species.
Maybe sometimes individual identity.
So not only am I this type of bird, but I am this bird specifically.
Um, territory ownership.
So different from location where it's like not just I'm here, but I'm here and you can't be here. Pairing or mating status.
So either I'm single and I'm looking to mingle or I'm doing a song with my with my person.
Nope.
With my bird.
My bird friend.
Oh, they're just, it's just puppy love.
They're just friends.
They're just friends.
They're just good friends.
So also level of aggression was another category.
And then some sort of individual quality.
So like how fit am I?
How old am I?
How long have I been here?
And then finally, alarm calls.
So, that's more so for communicating with the birds around you of like a specific predator or something that's in the area.
Yep.
So that was how she opened.
Um, and then she moved into her 1st round of research that brought her into kind of this vocalization focus.
So she was doing graduate field work for UC Berkeley, but their field location is in Carmel Valley in this like, specific protected area.
It looked really gorgeous.
It looked beautiful.
It was like this beautiful rolling field.
Um, but she became, she said there were many beautiful birds and animals in this area that were very fascinating, but she became obsessed with California towhees.
She specifically was like a little brown bird and several times through the thing, she's like, I got obsessed with another little brown bird.
She really did several times become obsessed with little brown birds.
And if you look up a California toehee, Because we've talked about the spotted tohee with the bird banding class.
And they're kind of showy, right?
I was going to say, they're not brown.
I wouldn't classify them as like brown and boring.
No, they're like black with rufous sides and a white belly and red eyes.
Like they're kind of, they have a lot going on.
They've got these very bright white spots.
California toehi truly looks like a sparrow, but like even more brown and muted, almost like a dusty brown.
Yeah, like it looks like a sparrow who rolled in dirt because the streaks are like gone.
It's just different types of brown on their body.
Even their eyes are brown.
They're just brown.
A very average looking bird.
Like nothing particularly.
I mean, they're extremely cute, but there's nothing particularly like showy about them.
I mean, I think in the world of birds, it's very fun to get hooked on things like the Hotzen, you know, or the flamingo.
Or a toucan.
Yeah.
But it is, I do love, I feel like the true bird nerds are always picking the most like basic birds. That they're obsessed with.
Kind of like you with ducks.
Yeah that's true.
There's so many birds and you're like, I love a duck.
I love that. Love a duck.
And you could find a mallard probably in any body of water that you.
But there's still fun to see.
Yeah.
No, they're still beautiful.
But they were, um, so this specific California Tohi, their scientific name is Melazone chrysalis, which sounds like butterfly.
Butterfly.
Um, so don't judge a book by its cover.
But she became obsessed with them because they were very prevalent in the area she was in.
And specifically, their unique vocalization.
So they live in large stable family groups, which very cute.
Okay, we love a, this is like TRAD horror.
We love a nuclear family.
Um, so it's 2 to 7 males, 2 to 7 females sharing one territory.
Yep.
And they kind of have very strict lines.
So the male's solo song is really simple and she said it wasn't heard very often.
It's usually used by unmated males that are searching for a partner.
Yep.
But once they're paired, males really kind of stop singing solo songs.
Um, I'm guessing they probably do like random alarm calls and stuff, but no solo singing situations.
Instead, mated pairs perform what she called a squeal duets.
It does sound like a squeal.
It's very beautiful squealing, but it is squealing.
Um, I don't know, the beautiful sort of.
I think you're being kind.
It's unique It's unique.
It's like what your mom says when you make something and she's like, that's so you.
You're like, oh, is that an insult?
Or...
Oh my god.
But it's a coordinated vocalization where either partner initiates and the other joins in with the pair always ending up side by side by the close of the duet.
So sometimes they even use it to find each other.
So one will start it and they'll get closer and closer to each other till they end the duet, which is fucking adorable.
And apparently they do this all the time, like all day long.
Like, they leave, they go back and then one of them starts singing.
They other one starts calling back and then they blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, until they're right next to each other.
And then they go and they do it again.
It's like, kind of she, she made it sound like it is like, she's like, it's 100s of times a day.
They do this constantly.
Yeah.
And so if we were looking at that and compared to the categories, that would be like pairing and mating status, because they sing a completely different song only with their partner parent once they are paired up versus what they sound like with their thing and they're doing that for location and potentially for some territory slash ownership, that was kind of like one of those things.
But only, like, again, as a duet, like only only together.
And remind me too, I might have often, I might be going too far ahead, but were they unique?
The coordinated duet?
I think it is like each duet has like a slight difference.
Yeah.
I don't I think it's because of the amount that she heard she could tell slight differences that were created.
I don't think it's as unique as like the albatross where we saw like they had a unique order of their like dance and stuff for each pair.
I think it's a little different than that.
But, I mean, it is specifically only a duet that they also, I asked at the conversation, like, what about the babies?
Like how do the babies learn the duet?
Because they only start singing the duet once they pair up.
Well, and the other part of that is that the girls, as far as I know, the females, we always do this.
Don't sing at all until they're paired.
Correct.
They only make solo till they get paired.
The females are silent from what she could tell.
Yes.
Well, and that's kind of one of the interesting whole points of her research, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, but the whole reason she started this was because the concept in larger science media was that female birds never or rarely sing, which is largely true, but also not so true that it should be assumed all the time.
And so that's...
There's a lot more assumptions that are being made because of our own human biases in our own society of patriarchy.
And that's like part of what brought her to researching the specific things that she's interested in is trying to figure out where when the female birds are singing.
And also, we know that they used to, which this was like mind boggling to me.
She said, we know they used to sing just as much as male birds, but then they stopped.
And so we're trying to figure out why.
And I was like, what do you mean you how do you know that?
Yep, how explain that to me, please.
So I think there's some really interesting, like a lot of this information that we'll be sharing will be kind of based around this idea that the idea that female birds don't sing in trying to prove that wrong and also to make sure that we are kind of undoing those biases, to better do research, especially when you're in just listening situations.
Exactly.
And you can't always tell the sex of a bird until you are literally sexing the bird.
Exactly.
Which with these tohis.
Like there's not really a distinction between the male and the female as far as like aesthetics.
So they knew because they were sexing and studying these birds and they abandoned them.
So like they could tell what sex was doing what at what time.
So that was interesting.
One of the main ways that they use this duet is they go to their territory borders and they like do like sing-offs against like neighboring pairs, which I think is like, I'm just picturing like a pitch perfect situation.
No, yeah, literally.
Or like sharks versus Jets.
Like every musical you've ever seen where it's like 2 gangs fighting for the same territory by singing and dancing.
Yeah.
They're broad.
Broadway for that.
It's very dramatic in Broadway.
So, the duet signals, like, not only is this my territory, and I'm defending it, but also, like, I have, I have my pair, and we have our other pairs behind us, and, like, you can't, you wouldn't want to come stand against us, because we have a lot going on over here.
Exactly.
So that was cool.
It is funny, though, she mentioned, which I thought was cute because we've talked about this with the Red Wing Blackbird.
Yep, but the duets, while they are only singing with this one pair, their whole life unless the partner dies, and then they find a new partner that they only sing with, they never switch partners.
There are still extra pair paternities.
So the eggs that they were testing, they were like, females are definitely mating outside of their duet pair.
Yep, but only singing with that one bird.
I also loved because they were taking blood samples of these baby birds and there was a picture of it and it was the tiniest little tube you've ever seen taking the blood.
I was like, so cute.
They was banding the baby birds.
It was cool.
Yeah, that was really fascinating that they and also I'm like, how do you have time because they're constantly singing all the time.
I think bird mating is pretty fast.
I think it's pretty, it can be, rub hole be done.
Yeah.
Like, you could do it really...
Especially when it's just that coacal kiss situation.
I really don't.
You like rub hole better.
I like rub hole better.
Cloacal Kiss feels like...
It's kind of a mouthful.
Chloacle in general is kind of, it fills your mouth in a way that's uncomfortable.
It feels like an Australian word.
Tasty.
That's my Australian name.
It was Steve Irwin.
Everybody took over.
Pita.
Data?
I said PETA.
Oh, in an Australian accent.
Peter.
Remember from Double Wars product?
My least favorite part of the movie was that random romance plot.
Um, okay.
But, so that was her 1st for a interreseearch.
She's still a graduate student, probably earning her doctorate.
I'm not entirely sure, but she became obsessed.
She did so much research on it.
Sorry, I just quickly Googled how long does bird mating typically take?
And it says the actual act of bird mating is incredibly brief, typically taking less than a 2nd to a few seconds.
So they just hop on, hop off.
Yeah, literally, it's just like cloaco kiss.
That's what they say.
Just literally like, though, a brief physical touch known as the cloacical kiss where the male and female press their vent openings together.
Just quickly transfers the sperm.
It's literally just like...
But it happens a lot and will happen multiple times of day to in the course of a week to ensure you're successful insemination.
Well, and it does seem a little different than the red wing blackbird situation where it's like they had ample opportunity to make with other males. Because the males were just on the edge of the territory.
They're just screaming. Out there screaming all day.
Whereas these guys are always together.
And they're always like, they're literally making calls to their pair and probably like cloacle kissing a different pair at the same time.
Insane.
But it does seem like it's like less about opportunity and trying to build their territories and like their bird populations is more about like, uh, I don't know, just a random chance encounter with the...
We call it genetic diversity. 12nd rub hole.
So wild.
Gosh.
But basically her takeaway of the whole thing.
All the six, all these different tests they ran, all these different recordings was that their duets for the California toehi function as social coordination tools.
They reinforce their parabons, but also communicate territorial ownership. Even if the genetic information might have another story.
They are still a bonded pair.
So we love it's fun.
But then, when she moved to Colorado, so, again, side, no, California, Tohies, shockingly, our only California.
No.
I mean, let's be real.
Sometimes these, the names of the birds are misleading.
Well, a lot of birds we found were named based on European birds that looked similar that ended up not being the same at all.
Not even the same species.
That's a good point.
But yeah, this time, it is truly in California.
So it's in California and then, um, Baja, California, it looks like on the map, um, and then maybe just a tiny bit, a tip of the Oregon area that touches Northern California.
So, Then she came to Colorado.
I'm guessing for work or maybe school, hard to say, but she ended up in Colorado and she again fell in love with a random, some random brown birds.
Two round, random round.
Yep.
Why does that feel hard to say?
Two random, round, round, round.
Brown.
And brown.
Brown birds.
Yeah, why is it hard to say?
Why does the random stuff?
There we go.
I don't know.
That's hard don't get it.
Speech pathologist.
We need them on the hotline.
Um, but they are very closely related.
They're both wrens.
So one is a rock wren, so...
I love an obsoletus.
Canyon wren.
So catherapis Mexicanus.
You would think, since they're both wrens, they would have some sort of similarity in their scientific name, but nope.
So, um, they do have really similar habitats too, so you can often find them in a similar area, not necessarily in the same spot because they would be competing for resources, but in the same range, I guess.
My understanding was that one of them was like, they're both in the same range, but that one of them lives at a higher elevation than the other. On the cliff edge versus like, yeah, in the forest.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was my understanding was that they they're in the same area just at different heights and altitudes, which in Colorado can be very different. If you don't know.
You can't.
Yes.
So, they do have similar appearances, but they differ dramatically in vocal behavior.
So she became very interested in their different vocalizations since that was her that's her thing.
That's the thing that gets her the most excited.
So with Rock Wrens, they can sing over 120 distinct song types, which was so crazy and she showed us the spectrograms for this.
She did.
And it was really cool to look at how they like repeat and also just to see them on a board when you see all the spectrograms side by side, it's so easy to tell how similar they are.
Even though if you played them for me, I'm not sure that I would have picked up on the little differences, but when she played a variety, she must have played at least 3 or 4 different ones.
I think she, yeah, played them at least.
And you could see they were very similar, but there was like a very distinct difference and that difference would repeat itself, which created those distinct songs.
So it could just be like one note that went like lower or longer or something, but it was its own specific thing because that would repeat in a way that was very like intentional.
You could tell that it wasn't like a call, that it was its own song.
Yes. Which was really cool to see side by side in that way and have visual and audio to help you kind of get a better picture.
Exactly.
Well, and it was interesting because I think someone asked, what's the difference between a song and a call and like, how do you know?
Because some of these quote unquote songs are not what you would expect from like a song from a musical artist.
It's not 2.5 minutes.
It's like maybe only 3 different notes.
Well, yeah, yes, I think that also kind of surprised me because I think even when you think about songbirds, at least in media.
Yeah.
You're thinking like, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo.
Like maybe a whole 32nd rendition.
Like something that sounds kind of like a flute.
Right, you know?
But really it is just kind of like a, and we'll play a couple clips here.
Yeah And you can tell that they're just kind of, like, pretty short bursts.
Yeah, but they're very distinctly different from, like, a call, which is usually one note.
Or one or 2 notes that is specifically used to like alert.
Right.
So sometimes they do like that, I don't know.
I describe it as like staticky, but it's kind of this like trill where it's like...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It does sound like static.
That sometimes is just a call, but sometimes it's a note in a song.
So like, that those are kind of the distinct differences, is that basically a call is like a piece of a song.
The song needs to be complex in comparison, but she was saying that sometimes that just means like 2 other notes.
Yeah.
She also did say that there was some like kind of debate over what.. Depended on who you asked as a song and what constitutes as a call.
I think there are some things that are agreed on, but then there are definitely like gray areas where people are not totally on the same page.
So I, and that's fair because it is hard to, when you see it, it's difficult to have distinction.
But the way she explained it did make it feel a lot more clear.
I agree.
But with rock run specifically, only the males sing.
Never the females.
Never, ever the females, ever.
She said that they had done many different recordings attempting to see if females ever, and they did not ever notice any songs from females.
I'm not even sure that they heard any calls.
Like, it seems like the females are just kind of silent.
Yeah, I can't remember.
I know that one of the birds, she said that they recorded them maybe making a little sound, but it was only when they needed to protect their nest.
Like if they were, yeah, the females, they were laying or like on the...
Oh, that was the canyon wren.
Okay.
Then, yeah, I don't know if they ever made sound.
I can look that up while you're moving on just to make sure, but I do remember her saying like they really do not make any sound.
But the song types for rock wrens are individually variable.
So each rakran male might have technically they have like 120 plus distinct song types, but that specific male might just have like 20 that he commonly uses.
So like each male might have their own repertoire is what she called it.
Um, that they would use more often. And like still be able to sing these other types.
I also just think it's fascinating because I don't, I don't understand how they learn the songs.
Like some of it, I think, is like genetically coded into them.
Some of them, they learn as children from their parents.
And when I say children.
I mean, babies, I don't know, children feels human. Fine.
It makes sense, though.
I get what you're saying.
Rock runs are very known for broadcasting, which is when we talked about this.
I feel like for a 2nd with hummingbirds.
But it's where they go to like a high area so that there's an echo and the sound travels a longer distance.
And she was saying they even did like a distance test with like recordings of songs and kind of were testing like how long can sound carry and what are the traits that kind of like make that happen using like a speaker and like a recording system.
So that was interesting.
But she was saying that there's songs likely communicate location, sex, aggression level, and possibly like unique qualities.
Yeah, so looking up about rock runs.
It does look like the females do make some sounds.
One is specifically the spit T sound, which apparently given is given by both male and females, but it's considered a call, not a song.
I think it's only the like male and female thing.
And then they can, as far as I'm reading and I'm literally just looking this up on birds of the world, it sounds like they also have kind of like a trill sound with a little chip note right in the middle of that spit T sound.
Okay.
So they make little like sounds and then little like chatter noises or angry noises, but it's more calls and like defending territory and it's never just for like just to just to make noise.
It's like in response to something else specifically.
And it's only ever calls.
So they're not completely silent, but they're, they only ever like protect the nest, it looks like.
And I'll add this page to our notes page, but you do have to have a subscription to birds of the world to see it.
Sorry.
Yeah.
Paywall.
It is worth it.
There's a lot of cool stuff.
Oh my god, it's really cool and it's only a yearly subscription.
So just like, just you have to pay one time a year.
It's not that bad.
No worries.
Um, okay.
So the canyon wrens, the males sing 6 song types.
And this was incredibly consistent across the population.
So sometimes the males would sing 4 of the six, but they would never, ever sing, they'd never found a 7th song.
Never. Ever.
Um, and she like showed us like a little map of the range of like who was singing one through 6, who was singing like one through 5, who was singing 2 through six.
So it was interesting because it definitely varied based on their area, which makes sense.
So they're probably repeating the songs that are most commonly heard in their little territory.
One more thing.
Our professor is shouted out in birds of the world.
She, it says LB. And that it's for her, for her Lauren Benedict.
It says they're talking about all this stuff, like her research is on here, cited, which is really cool.
It feels like meaning a celebrity.
Oh my god, that's so cool.
No, I mean, that makes sense because I'm sure she's published papers on this stuff.
She definitely talked about.
She, Yeah, I mean, that's the whole reason you, not the whole reason, but when you do graduate research, these things become papers that get studied and published, but it is just cool because I use this website all the time to the fact that we met someone who's being referenced in this is like very, very cool to me.
Sorry, not to interrupt you again.
No, I love that.
That was a perfect interruption.
But for Canyon Wrens, females do also sing, but they have their own distinct song type.
So if you were to listen to 2 different Canyon Ren recordings, you would be able to tell the difference between a male and a female song, which is cool.
And from what I remember, the female song was one song and it was really distinct.
Yes, exactly.
And it was lower pitched than the male song.
It was.
Canyon rins are really cute by the way.
They're really, really...
They have, like, striped tails.
They're super spotty and then they've got a little like white beardy area.
And I think they're really cute.
They are.
I mean, rock wrens are also cute, but I think out of all three.
I'm partial to the canyon wren looks wise alone.
Yeah.
They did really cute.
They're very cute.
They're kind shaped like a hummingbird.
Strangely.
Like a bigger hummingbird because of their, like, long tail.
They just kind of have like all one shape from head to body.
It's all just kind of one long drawn out shape.
But I think they're quite cute.
Yeah.
No, the male songs like Cleo is saying, the male songs are higher pitch.
They also travel farther.
So this was part of that research that they did to try and see how far the distance could go.
Female songs are lower pitch.
And she described them as buzzier, so a little more of that staticky trilling, and they don't carry as well, but they're not intended to carry as well, because the females specifically are almost exclusively using their song to against a rival female.
So like a rival female comes to their territory.
They don't need long distance because they're just like, get out of here.
This is my area.
Yep.
That's what their song is almost exclusively used for.
Um, So, males broadcast because they're protecting the territory, largely, whereas females are directly protecting their actual nest area from rival females.
So, but playback experience, experiments confirmed the sex specificity, males respond aggressively to male songs.
So when they used a speaker, play back a male song, they would get like an aggressive song back from the actual bird.
Yep.
Females, they would do the same thing, but only with another female song.
They would not aggressively respond to a male song recording.
Yep, they would stay silent.
So within contests, males lower pitch and chi-chi, harsh notes, signal escalating aggression.
So the lower they go and the like more harsh the tone is that is used to actively defend versus broadcast my beautiful song to let you know I'm here and I'm having a good time.
Yeah.
That was her Colorado research when she 1st moved here, she became obsessed with those things, but now we're gonna get into this, that was also the intro of like, female versus male vocalizations, but then she kind of became extremely interested in the difference in female bird song research and the amount. Of kind of the unknown that was in this field, um, until very recently.
I mean, I think I had a friend send me a video about some podcast in the UK and they were talking about how female bird song is like 70% less researched or something.
Like, it's like dramatically different.
If you even look at Merlin and you're looking at the different birds and you scroll down to the sound area, like a ton of birds don't even have a single female vocalization under the sound section.
You have to kind of go look for it. Or be on more of, and I think it's not always even super clear.
Like, this is a male sound.
Right sometimes it's inaccurately allocated to a male and it's actually a female.
Well, and that's like all of her point of research is to try to debunk this idea that it's like we can just assume that they're always males because that's not inherently true.
And like the research is not, it's definitely that there are less females that are singing.
But it's not zero.
So, like, it's important that we're paying attention to those things because it is different and it does change how we will see that and, like, yeah, so, I mean, I don't even feel like I really need to explain that, but it is crazy.
And again, when you're assuming if you see a bird singing, especially birds who don't have a ton of sexual dimorphism, and you're just assuming that bird is male, then you're not actually learning.
Right.
You're just making assumptions based on what you think you know.
And I think it's important that someone like Dr. Benedict is doing this research to kind of put that. Differentiate.
Yeah, to differentiate or to at least find numbers behind those assumptions to better understand what is actually true versus what is like assumed.
Yeah.
Well, and someone asked an interesting question when she opened up this part of the conversation was like, why do you think that is?
Why do you think there is this preferential amount of research into male bird vocalizations?
And she kind of had a non-answer answer.
She was like, I mean, I think there's lots of different perspectives on why that might be the case, but I think she did say that essentially we have our own human biases and a lot of the research that was being done in ornithology for years and years and years was primarily male scientists.
And so they're not only going to have biases towards their own sex, but also, they're in a patriarchy and they see no issue with it.
And so it's just like things compound on each other just based on our own human biases.
And so that was interesting.
Yeah, and I, it goes back to that same book and that whole thing we talked about, bitch, which is like trying to undo the patriarchal ideas that have kind of shaped natural science observation and seeing the situations that don't match patriarchal standards as one-offs versus just as part of a variation of nature. Rather than like an outside like thing that happens sometimes, but it's it's not normal, you know what I mean?
And I think that there are a lot of people, mostly women who are trying to kind of level the playing field on like, no, we can actually just see this as like part of everything rather than being an outside situation.
Yep. That sometimes happens in this crazy freak accident, like, insane.
So, I mean, you know, but matriarchies in culture are considered the same thing where it's like, they are.
It's so surprising that this one native group is a matriarchy.
It's like, is it?
No, it's actually way more common than any like, yeah.
So, no.
Anyway, it's very fun. Soap box.
But maybe.
Don't.
I'll get back on it eventually.
Actually, speaking of bitch and Lucy Cook.
I did want to.. Speaking of soap, clean yourself up.
This is an ad, interesting, but if you want us to advertise your soap, we will.
Yeah let us know.
I wash my hands.
I'm a clean person.
But Lucy Cook, bitch, the writer, the author of bitch, bitch.
And well-known bitch.
Hopefully she doesn't isn't offended by that. Think she wouldn't be.
I think she'd love it.
Um, but the, one of the main articles that I use for my research into albatrosses, the lesbian albatross that we did several episodes of goat, well, episodes. Several episodes ago, was written by Lucy Cook.
So I did not end up realizing that until I was finalizing the notes that I put for the episode and I was like, 0 my God.
What the hell?
So just another shout out to Lucy that she's fucking awesome and she does a lot of cool research.
So we definitely one day we can talk to her.
Oh, we will.
We have to.
We have to.
We must.
Even if it's just a private email where we say, hey, love you so much.
Thanks for existing.
All right.
So as far as the numbers, Cleo mentioned earlier that that was kind of the start of Dr. Benedict's research was trying to figure out like the numbers behind female versus male vocalizations.
So she has found that across all songbirds, which are called the O scenes, spelled O-S-C-I-N-E-S, 60 to 71% of species have singing females, which is way more than I think was already thought of. 60 to 70% is significant for people to be considering that they're silent.
Yeah, yeah.
They're like females never sing.
Hello?
Hello?
But here's another bias that we need to be conscious of.
We definitely have a American European bias, right?
A lot of the research is more well funded in those areas.
North American Europe has just a lot more of the famous ornithologists than we might have come to know.
So technically for North America and Europe, more of the migratory and temperate species of songbirds.
Only about 40% of the species have singing females.
So that also contributes to this lack of understanding, this belief that so much less of the birds are singing that are female.
So Basically, in your backyard, if you're American or European, it's gonna be 40% of the songbirds that are singing.
And by American, we mean North Americans.
So Canada and Mexico.
Correct.
So the underestimation of female song stems from geography.
Again, there's just more research into these temperate areas that have more funding.
There's also observer bias.
So female song is often less frequent.
It's used.
Like, for instance, with the canyon wren, the female vocalization is used in a very specific situation.
So maybe that's a situation that wasn't observed for a long time.
Um, and then the historical perspective.
So studies of female song are more likely to be conducted by women, scientists, women researchers.
And since the field has historically skewed mail, we have been missing that perspective.
This is why representation matters.
Really does.
Like truly the argument for DEI writes itself.
Oh my god.
And anybody who wants to get mad at me about that, I don't care.
The reason that these things are being studied is because there are people who are taking the time to study it because they find it interesting because it relates back to something that they are interested in or something that they are experiencing and therefore put time and effort into it.
And that is why you need people who come from diverse backgrounds to ask diverse information so that we can get a whole picture.
And that's all I'm gonna say about that.
I agree wholeheartedly.
So what do females sing about?
She said largely the same as males, so a lot of territory, defense, um, and communication with their mates or their offspring, sometimes like their own individual identities or species identities, but female song is almost never used to attract mates.
Whereas that is a very, very, very common occurrence for males.
Well, yeah, that's like, that's one of their...
I would say that's like their primary is used to attract mates.
So it's kind of like a flip, the script on that, because it is almost entirely used for territorial defense and direct competition with other birds. Specifically females a lot.
Yeah, so she encouraged all of the attendees to contribute to observations of female bird song, and they have a whole little website that they've built out called Female Birdsong, all one word.org, which was so fun.
And she made fun of it too.
She was like, is it very creative title?
But also, this is all to say too that she, the reason that she came on this project and this part of the project was because COVID happened and she wasn't able to actually do her field research anymore because field research was basically fully stopped because you couldn't travel outside and you couldn't do things.
And so she started an online network of trying to get more people interested in recording female bird song from all over the world.
So she's kind of taken her, like, field research, but made it citizen science and made it more global even by creating this other thing, which was created on a circumstance that, like, nobody, Well, I shouldn't say nobody saw coming.
But that we all were, you know, our lives changed.
Right, pretty dramatically.
Yeah.
Which is cool.
It's really cool.
So yeah, anyway, female birds song, it's female birds song, but it could be read like female birds song.
So that's true.
Like when I was trying to read it.
Female birds on.
It's female birds song.
It does look like that.
You can remember it.
My female bird's on org.
Go for it.
If you need a little like remembering because of how it sounds, that's so cute.
Um, okay.
So she is obviously been diving into this female versus male vocalization for a minute.
She does have a specific grad student, Christina Barros, that she specifically called out, who studied female red wing blackbirds.
Shout out.
We talked about them.
Um, we know him.
We love them.
The red wing blackbirds.
And the females remember. We'd love to.
Oh yeah, I would love to meet you, Christina.
Shout out.
Um, you sound great. Because I love red wing blackbirds.
But remember, Red Wing Blackbird females look super different.
There's a huge difference in their plumage.
So they're the ones that look like giant sparrows with sometimes like they'll have that little red maroon accent on their wing, but mostly they just look like a giant sparrow.
And now I've noticed them all the time because I look for them specifically, but she specifically studied their vocalizations, and she found that females produce a rattle call that is long and structurally complex, just as complex as the male song.
Yet it has traditionally been labeled a call rather than a song.
So again, it goes back to what Dr. Benedict said that it depends on who you ask, and it probably depends on their own sex.
And biases, but also if you're doing the research and you have the spectrogram in front of you, which I believe she showed us the spectrogram differences.
The argument feels very strange.
Yep, that that would be a call versus a song when you see them side by side because they are deeply similar.
Yeah.
I think she even said it kind of sounded like like a cheerleader.
Oh, I remember this part, but I don't remember exactly what she said.
I don't have it in the recording for some reason.
But Christina, the researcher, found that female rattles communicate location, species identity, individual identity, sex, and aggression level.
So crucially, she found that females who adjusted their songs in response to intruders could predict some of their reproductive success.
So if they had, especially intimidating call, not calls, songs that they were using, they would more often have surviving young, more reproductive success.
And so that was really interesting.
She also talked a little bit about how it was almost like a call in response, so not in the sense of like the definition of call that we've been talking about call versus song, but more so that the female's call was almost like a, instead of a duet, it was almost like a response to the mail call at times.
Um, which was kind of cool and interesting.
Yeah, I think I specifically asked about that was like, is it similar to a duet?
And she was like, not really, it's more like a call back and forth rather than like a coordinated duet.
Yeah, exactly.
But then, again, as Cleo mentioned, because of this pandemic, that was still raging on, and she was trying to do more research, there wasn't the opportunity to even like go outside in Colorado and do like recordings of things, she turned to a captive species that we all know and love.
And I'm excited for Cleo to kind of talk about like, what did she find?
Because you love this stuff.
Parrots are like a special interest for me.
And I think it's because of Alex the Gray, which is like the most famous African gray, possibly the most famous parrot of all time.
There was a bunch of research done on him.
And I'm going to do a whole deep dive on Alex the Gray.
Don't you worry.
That is like already in the books. Absolutely.
That was like one of the 1st things you asked to do when we started. It was like, I wanted to do Alex the Gray.
I call Alex the Gray.
Well, and there's a really interesting You're wrong about podcast episode about Alex the Gray Parrot, too, and I just showed Hannah this video of a parrot and a gray parrot who sees a tiny frog and he's like, it's bug. And his owner is like, no, it's an old bug.
And he's like, bug.
And he's like, yeah, I mean, it makes sense that you would think this is a bug because he's a pretty small frog.
But really fascinating birds.
I mean, they're just insane.
And I believe that Alex the Gray's last words were, you be good now.
I love you.
And then he died and like not right after, but in that night he passed away.
And he passed away very young for that species because they live very long lives.
And one of my friends, Devonshire and I, who is scared of birds, but loves birds for me.
We always say, you be good now to each other before we hang up or when we talk on the phone or we see each other, we always say, you be good now because of that.
So, um, it's just very, it's just like a very special story and it's really interesting.
And so that has like always sparked my interest.
But I also think one of the coolest things and one of the most debated things, I think, in science in general is like, you know, the sentience level of animals and whether or not they have culture or language that is complex.
And so when it comes to birds, when they're actually speaking English, like with the words that we use and mimicking using sounds, and having rationale, then it is the core argument for me of like sentience and animals and language and complex social structures and blah, blah, blah.
So I think parrots are really fascinating.
I know a lot of people are really fascinated by parents and I think that parents, parrots.
And I think that makes sense, but I think to me, it is like how that impacts the rest of science on animals that is the most interesting part to me.
So, yes, as I mentioned, she started this kind of citizen science project, couldn't go outside.
So she opens a different kind of survey into the world.
She opened like a Google form, basically. Literally just a Google forum and it was like people who own parrots tell us like what their birds had learned to say and that could include words, phrases, and human learned sounds, so like mimicking, um, you know, the sound of like a chip bag opening or like, um, I think one that's really common is like a siren.
But she was able to get these from all over the world.
And so the rationale was that like wild parrots live in these like fluid and shifting social groups and they kind of learn this like flock and vocalization behavior to integrate.
But the same vocal learning in captivity has like showing them as like joining these complex social groups in their own households and like the ability to distinguish like individual people and individual animals and like just some really fascinating research there.
So that's not what this was about, but there was a lot of interesting stuff because she mentioned as well, that like some of the sex differences that people assumed was they always say get a male bird if you wanted to talk a lot, right?
Like that's what people would tell people to do.
And so she was like, okay, I want to know if that's actually true.
So it still relates back.
But it's going past song and more into speaking.
So some of the species differences she found that was really interesting just on the research was African gray parrots, far outperformed all the others.
Yeah, like looking at the graph that she was insane.
It was literally like way beyond like I think that was the part that had like 5 words, 3 words.
And then African grays, like there were some of the people who had submitted and it was like, 120 years.
Well yeah, and that's the thing is that these were averages.
Things were all based on averages of what they found not just like each one.
And so the fact that it was still way above was like really crazy.
They had 20, about 20 distinct learn sounds and 60 words on average, but with individuals ranging from 0 to 500 words and sounds.
So really insane vocabulary.
And if you ever listen to or talk, we will talk about it someday, but like, it's it's that they specifically seem to understand and can like reason.
Like, I remember there's a part with Alex the Grey where he's like looking at a fruit he doesn't understand, but he starts to describe it using 2 other words.
Yeah, because he knows those other words.
Which is exactly what toddlers do. Like to try to figure out what they're looking at is use the information they already have to like describe something else, right?
So it's really, really fascinating.
But budgies and parakeets, technically, they learn fewer words on average, maybe a couple that they have.
And then species level differences of vocal learning and capacity are like very, very real and significant.
So like if you wanted a bird, you could have a full on conversation with, you would not get a parakeet.
No. Point blank.
They, like, they can, but it's just much, much more just like vocalizations and stuff versus like actual mimicking of human language.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Which I also googled because I was like, what is the difference between a budgie and a parakeet?
And apparently there's no difference?
Technically, parakeets are like more commonly what they're called in the US, but budgies are like kind of the more universal name used across the world.
Fascinating.
That's good to know.
They do look really similar, but so do a lot of birds.
Yeah, I was just like, wait a second.
But good to know.
So then parakeets.
Across most species, males and females learn equally well is what she found.
Cockatiels, males are more likely to learn at all, whereas females, when they do learn, they usually match males in vocabulary size, but if you wanted a male, like a cockatiel that spoke specifically, you'd be more likely to want a male.
Budgies, males are more likely to learn and tend to have larger vocabularies, which is consistent with lab research.
And also kind of like learning new sounds when they integrate into flocks.
So the research there kind of mirrors what they would do in the wild situation.
And then blue and yellow macaws, which I think macaws are probably when you think pet parrot. Probably what people are thinking of the most often.
What is Iago in Aladdin?
He's like a red macaw?
His name is not Iago, is it?
I think I thought it was Hold.
Ian?
Ian?
Yeah, he's a...
Iago.
He's a bright red parrot, but he's apparently identified as a red lori.
Oh, really?
I had no idea his name is Yago.
That's really funny because if you ever read, um, Othello.
Othello.
That is like a very, it's a very interesting take.
I had a whole Sydney and I had a whole Othello phase because...
Well, we had this class where we had to read Othello and we also were watching the movie as we were reading the play and then we had to write papers on it.
And so we both got like deeply into Othello at a certain point.
I love Othello.
It's a great play and it was a lot of fun to go through when we were in college together, but yeah, basically, macaws, they're like what you would assume a pet parrot is if someone said they had one.
They're fucking massive.
And kind of scary.
Like, they're really big.
Their beaks are huge.
Like, I don't I would not just walk up to go pick up someone's like pet parrot.
You'd have to tell me that he was cool with that for me to try to do that because the beaks are big.
But the females are actually more represented in the data and a small male sample showed larger repertoires, but it's inconclusive because there were so many more like females that were in the data set that she had.
So still working on that.
But even within species, individual birds range from 0 to 160 words, like even basically just like having a type of bird does not inherently guarantee the vocal like the repertoire of vocabulary, because individuality can range so much.
And we don't really know necessarily why that is, um, it could simply be because they just don't want to or like how their owners interact with them or could be based on like social structure and like whether they feel like they are, quote unquote, a part of, um, you know, the group or whatever that might be.
There really is no research, but it is fun to think about like why at an individual level some birds may be more likely to be vocal than others.
And I also think, again, kind of goes back to this idea of like individuality in species.
Like animals are not just like carbon copies of each other.
They have individual personalities.
There are larger trends, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's not individualistic nature anyway.
My soapbox, my soapbox, my soapbox.
That's what this podcast should have been called.
Soapbox on soapbox.
So some bonus findings that she found, though, especially was like, do parrots use names and do they use them appropriate?
Right.
Which was a lot of fun. Was really interesting.
It was really interesting. 15% of reported phrases included proper's name, proper names.
So people's names or pets names, which also was really fun.
About half of all birds with recorded phrases use names pretty regularly, and the team looked for evidence of like true naming behavior.
So meaning like if a child came in the room and that child's name is Jeffrey, does the bird know that?
But then if another kid walked in the room, let's say it was a little girl walked into the room.
Would the bird say hi, Jeffrey, to that little kid too, or would it know that it was not that person specifically, um, which is really, really interesting and just how we can kind of pick up on those things.
So some notable examples that recorded by owners was birds saying good night name to each individual, either bird, person, or pet at the bedtime in the sequence that they left the room or like went to bed, which is adorable.
Birds asking, where's name only when that specific person was absent, which is also really cute.
And birds using a family member's name when that person is called on the phone.
So if they heard their voice, which is just kind of insane.
This data set included 88 birds across 30 species that consistently used a name for the correct individual and 22 birds across 19 species where the naming appeared referential used for an absent individual.
So basically understanding that we can still see that this is specific.
I also asked about this, and this is just like a Cleo science sidebar that I was like, why?
Because we know that like guerrillas have been taught sign language, but guerrillas will never be able to speak English because they do not have the correct vocal cords.
Right.
And mouth situation to like say words.
But birds don't really seem like they have what we have either.
So I kind of ask like, what is that all about?
Well, because you also mentioned like crows.
Oh, yeah.
I was going to talk about that too, because I am, I think someone needs to do Corvid research.
Like she did parrots, she's done songbirds.
Yeah.
I want to know about Corvids because I think that's a very under researched section there.
Yeah, they're all mimics.
They're mimics and they're very intelligent.
We know that crows are very intelligent.
And when you hear a crow talk or raven talk, It is like kind of intriguing, but they're not really known as like pets.
So it's not nearly as recorded.
Occasionally, they have been rescued and like domestically, but it's not like parrots or budgies or cookies.
Like, there's, did you say turkeys?
No, but I said budgies and then kind of jumped my neck spot really quickly.
Like, as far as I know, turkeys do not speak and that would be.. Insane for a turkey to run up on you and be like, where's Bob?
Where's Bob?
I'm just picturing like a really upset turkey who can scream actual words and it's not a fun time in my head.
It's really good.
It does sound kind of terrifying.
It sounds so scary.
Turkeys are intimidating.
I can't wait to talk about them.
Oh yeah, I love turkeys.
Ologies did an episode on the recently.
Yes, they do one almost every year for, like, Thanksgiving.
Thanksgiving time. Really fun.
But, um, yeah, you were, you asked about the vocal cords and like kind of reference the crow specifically.
She basically just said that there's like a part in their throat that I can't remember the exact name of it.
It was either the larynx or the pharynx or something like that.
We'll get more into like how birds talk, right?
Something about the tongue too, but they don't have lips.
So there's like certain words that are harder for them to get out because lips are what cause that sound to be possible, but they're still able to like this, this kind of part in their throat is like so malleable that they're able to like kind of create those same sounds, which is really fascinating, especially when you think about like people can't mimic like a siren perfectly.
You know what I mean?
Not the way a bird can.
Like, I could make the wee woo sound, but it's not gonna sound like how...
You know it's a human making that sound.
Exactly, exactly.
And so I, yeah.
And then I also asked about Corvids because I'm sure that all of you bird people, bird lovers who are out there, have seen this, and if you haven't, just go on Instagram and look up like Raven speaking or Crow speaking, and you will find something that will be like, oh, this is what Edgar Allen Poe was talking about.
No, really?
Nevermore, nevermore.
Freaky, but it's also so cool and like goth.
Um, and they're incredible like speakers.
Like, it's really surprising.
And so I would really love to see that. Honestly, if I was to like, oh, man.
Every time I'm like thinking about being done with school.
I'm like, what if I just finished and I went and got my master's in ornithology?
And then I'm like, what if I finished school and then started it again?
I want to, but I really don't.
I want to go to school where I only learned exactly what I want to learn at any given time and I research exactly what I want.
Which is basically why we're doing this podcast is to be able to learn what we want to learn and research what we want to research in order to find the information that we don't care about.
And to not have to get graded or do homework.
I think that's that's the part of school that really, really puts a be in my bomb.
Yeah.
So anyway, all that is to say that like any scientists out there who might be listening, um, love you, 1st of all.
Second of all, if you're interested, I think, doing CorVID research on vocalizations and communication, especially like with words, like vocabulary would be fucking awesome.
And you don't even have to like credit me or like, you don't have to, it doesn't have to be about me at all, but I would love if you told me.
And if I could be there one day, that would be really cool. Would be great.
Um, but the basic takeaway was that parrots appear capable of learning to use names as individual identifiers and also to be able to understand object permanence, like, which is kind of cool, like to understand that like someone is not there, but they know that they have been there, you know, and be able to like speak on that is just really, really cool.
It is really cool.
And she also seemed really excited by you talking about that.
Like she seemed very interested in the object permanence thing.
Um, and she did seem interested in Corbett's as well, but I think she's like, I've got enough of my own passion.
Yeah, she was like, I don't know of anybody who is doing that research, but yeah, that would be interesting.
And I was like, cool.
It did kind of seem like she thought, specifically, the top...
That they were mimics.
Oh, oh, you're saying that part.
The tongue of a parrot and the parrot, the birds that can speak.
Yeah, that that is different than Corvid.
That's why they're more like mimics and maybe a little easier to tell a bird versus a human.
Well, she, yeah, she had said something about mimics.
But when I've heard Ravens speak, I don't think that they're, and I would be interested to hear what mimics mean because in my mind, mimics is like, if I say something, you like say it exactly back to me in my voice, but maybe mimics just means that they're like, you say something and it's like a call and response.
Like, I say, Hannah, you say, Hannah, but it's in the same voice because when I've heard Ravens speak, at least, they're doing it in their own voice and tone.
Yep.
And so I'd be interested to know what the difference is between a bird mimicking and a bird vocabulary.
And I'm sure that there are distinctions I could come up with right now, but I bet that there are more that I don't totally understand.
So someday we'll get more into that and we'll talk further through how birds talk, which ones are minutes, which ones have the ability to understand and develop vocabulary, probably in tandem with the Alex the Gray episode.
That seems like a good time to go over all that stuff.
But yeah, just really cool all around and was like a really fascinating and really understandable deep dive.
Like she made the information very attainable.
And what I imagine was probably like years of time outside with her giant boom mic.
And writing these, like, crazy, hard to understand academic papers publishing them for all this research that now is accessible, even on birds of the world and other sources, but, like, she made it so easy to understand.
And the visuals and the sounds that she chose to highlight were just, like, so simple and and she was so friendly.
She was. Like really was interested in like answering questions and also being like, yeah, I'm not totally sure.
Like, here's my speculation, but like, I don't know.
Um, which I always really appreciate because I feel like it is like such a scientist thing to be like, yeah, I have no idea, but like, here's what I kind of think based on what I know is part of the fun.
I think of, you know, researching birds and researching anything is like trying to understand.
So, um, you know, the through lines of everything was that like, there's, the bird song is a lot more complex than we realize.
Yeah.
Females are singing way more often than we're giving them credit for.
Correct.
And there is a lot more communication that is complex going on within like bird brains.
Yes.
Yeah.
No, that, that was, and that's, I think, kind of the exciting thing about songbirds and these mimics, like, these vocalizations give us such an interesting window into how much more complex their knowledge bases than we ever understood.
Also, something that she mentioned that I lost in the recording, probably because it was said in too low a volume, because again, I was just recording from my phone, but she did, I remember mentioning talking about like during migration, songbirds, brains, change.
So they turn off the part of their brain that has all these songs stored.
So, for instance, a rock wren.
He's got 120 tunes up there that he can just pull from it at any given moment.
He turns off that part of his brain for his like extensive map navigation knowledge during migration season. Like physically in the brain.
Physically, he literally shuts down and expands different parts.
And when I'm saying he, but she does it too.
Rock runs just specifically don't have female soccer. Is fine. Understand.
The point is, birds change their brains space to accommodate the tasks at hand.
Yes.
How many times have we thought that like, 0 man, I wish I could take this part of my brain out so I could focus on this homework that I'm doing right now.
Oh, too real.
Too real.
Like, it's so fucking cool.
It's so cool.
And not only that, but she also brought up, which doesn't fit really in here yet, but that female birds are more likely to die during migration than male birds.
And have less fat stores and less like resources because they are focusing on like raising the young and building the nest.
And it was just like, it was really, really, really interesting.
And there were a lot of things that were like off to the side still important.
And again, I just want to double tap on the fact that she was like, we know they used to sing, but why did they stop?
And I was like, yeah, what do you mean by that?
Like, truly, though, how do you know?
Like, what is that?
It's kind of like the dinosaurs thing.
It's like, how do you know?
But and I know there's research involved.
It just like, it feels magical to me.
I'm not saying they don't know these things.
I'm saying like it feels crazy to me that someone has figured that out.
Agreed. Without being able to necessarily observe it.
Or maybe somebody did a long time ago and that's why we know those things.
So I don't know.
We'll have to look into like, maybe one day we'll just have like a random bird fact dump episode where we just talk through like the random weird things we learned that didn't fit in an episode somewhere because, yeah, Just like, just so cool.
So, um, it was amazing.
She is awesome.
Um, she did also mention at the end, besides her femalebirdsong.org, or I, oh, I don't actually have the website for the parrots.
Parrots.
And I don't know if it's even still active or if they kind of shut it down if they got enough.
Yeah, that might have just been based on like a COVID timeline and like sending it out to people who said that they had pet parrots.
Like, they might have just opened it up.
I don't know.
I have no idea.
But you can obviously definitely submit to the research of femalebirdsong.org.
That's still actively going on.
She mentioned Galbatross and Female Bird Day, which we already talked about a bit, but she also has a relatively new YouTube channel called Bird Brain, Q and A, Bird Brain, all one word.
Um, and if you want to look it up, it's just youtube.com backslash at birdbrain qa.
Um, and she has. 10 videos, 11 videos, um, with interviews with different experts, um, someday a bird will poop on you is a title of one of them, how do birds find food, why do birds knees bend backwards, um, so some of the stuff we've even talked about because of things that we've learned. Since starting this.
But her latest host is What Bird has the biggest ego.
And the cover is a Hodson.
It's the Hudson, which I would love to watch that to know if she thinks that the Hudson does have the biggest ego because I am intrigued by these clumsy little, as you remember, clumsy, stinky, weirdos.
So I'm intrigued by not sure that they have that big of an ego.
I didn't see them that way, but I want to know what she knows.
Well, and when I actually hover over the video, it's like this intense photo of like a shoe bill, which I do think they are terrifying and probably have a nice sized eco because they're a nice sized person.
A complimentary sized ego.
Yeah.
But anyway, she's super cool.
She seems very open and excited to answer questions.
Hence, her creating a whole Q and A about it.
But yeah, she was incredible.
Here in Colorado, um, but has explored many different avenues of research across the world.
Um, and obviously the California Tohi specifically was where she started.
So huge shout out to her.
And again, like Cleo was saying, just like, how well she communicated all these different complex, heavily recent things. Years long, probably so much blood, sweat, tears, and sunburns.
In an hour and a half conversation with us.
Like just so easy and fun to hear about.
So huge shout out to Dr. Lauren Benedict, she's awesome.
And hopefully this isn't the last year hearing of her.
Hopefully we'll chat with her and talk about some other bird brain stuff.
I would really love that.
So with that, until next time, stop doom scrolling, and start paying attention to female birds.
Please, please try to hear the female birds singing and differentiate them between the males.
Submit those sound IDs to Merlin bird IDs so there's more females out there.
Exactly.
Stop doom scrolling and start submitting bird sounds that are females.
Stop doom scrolling and go get a spectrograph and start recording all your local birds.
Hell yes.
And uploading them to e-bird or eye naturalist or whatever your preferred.
Yes.
Recording method is.
Please.
And until next time.
Stay cool, bird boy.