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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;16;09 - 00;00;17;17
Aaron
Hey, guys. We're back.
00;00;17;19 - 00;00;20;20
Chris
Welcome back. Did you miss us?
00;00;20;23 - 00;00;23;16
Aaron
I did, I miss you. Oh, yeah. You know.
00;00;23;16 - 00;00;25;23
Chris
That warms my heart.
00;00;25;25 - 00;00;28;14
Pri
How did you miss giving?
00;00;28;16 - 00;00;40;03
Aaron
Yeah, it was great. When there's Thanksgiving, like, there. Like what's there not to love? It's like such a lot of family, a lot of good food. So that it's usually good vibes all the way around.
00;00;40;05 - 00;00;57;24
Chris
Yeah. When I was working like a mad man, Thanksgiving was always my favorite holiday because it was the easy one where you could actually catch your breath. You know, like you get friends for Christmas, but Christmas is like a production. Yeah. Or in places. Yeah. Yeah. The hair. You just got to cook a meal of food.
00;00;57;26 - 00;01;17;23
Aaron
Yeah, completely. But, you know, as as we were, gobbling down turkey, the markets were continuing to kind of do their move. It's been, you know, what's really been notable to me, over, like, the past, I don't know, like couple months, just like how fast people are kind of picking up production markets. Like it kind of like it really.
00;01;17;23 - 00;01;44;09
Aaron
Like I have a I have a hard time understanding. Kind of like why that's happening just because there was a lot of resistance to them. You know, for folks that may not have been as deep into this just for years. So like, even like in digital asset stuff, like you could have for the most part with like, regulators or, you know, business folks like pretty, you know, forthright conversations about, you know, everything that may happen with Bitcoin or even tokenization.
00;01;44;09 - 00;01;59;22
Aaron
People were interested. They knew that there was risks. They were, you know, wanted to like productively kind of deal with that. But for a long time, prediction markets were just like, not even on the table. And then literally like in a matter of months, that's like kind of reversed course. And I personally been like super geeked on that.
00;01;59;22 - 00;02;09;07
Aaron
But it just I don't know, it's one of like the, the biggest, like stories that I didn't really have on my radar over like the past, past year and a half.
00;02;09;10 - 00;02;18;25
Chris
So before we jump into the prediction markets, take us to the Wayback Machine. Why were the, the powers that be anti prediction market?
00;02;18;27 - 00;02;39;13
Aaron
I think it was a couple things. Well one is they kind of came out they kind of came out universities like there was a bunch of folks but including like Robin Hanson at George Mason, Cass Sunstein who may not be a name familiar with everybody but is like the number one most cited, you know, law professor and legal academic.
00;02;39;15 - 00;03;03;07
Aaron
He he's written about prediction markets. Google was doing prediction markets. There was an experiment in Iowa that was around prediction markets. So there's like a cluster of people that for 20 plus years have been like super geeked on this concept. You know, regulators were a little bit worried about it, I think, for two core reasons. One is, is that, you know, at the core, prediction markets can kind of accelerate gambling and kind of gambling culture.
00;03;03;07 - 00;03;29;24
Aaron
I think we're seeing a bit of that. And number two, you know, it can have like kind of weird impacts where you could you could have something like, prediction market for, you know, an assassination or some kind of socially undesirable, event, which by market sizing it, your you're in a weird way incentivizing. And then I think the last reason is that in many ways, like a prediction market can also serve as like a derivative or like a hedge.
00;03;29;27 - 00;03;51;11
Aaron
And when you kind of get into those, those conversations and areas, there's just a concern about how would impact and or create risk with the broader financial ecosystem. Right. We saw that most notably, you know, in 2008 where, you know, there was issues kind of related to the derivatives markets and, and lots of kind of complexity kind of related to that.
00;03;51;17 - 00;03;58;05
Aaron
So I think it was kind of the combination of the three and depending on who you were speaking to, they they didn't like it for one of those, those reasons.
00;03;58;07 - 00;04;27;21
Pri
I also would think part of the reason they wouldn't like it is just the cultural impact. And like the manifestation of what could happen if finance was tied to that. I mean, like obviously I think like the whole consumer protection thing, like I like barf. Now when I hear that, it's just so overwrought. But at the same time, like, I wonder if part of the apprehension, while those reasons I think make total sense, is also just like, how does that change the dynamic of outcome if people can bet on it?
00;04;27;24 - 00;04;40;25
Pri
Or you could have like foreign actors or whatever. How does it how does that change the perception of reality? So much to where just reality shifts when there's decision making that's financialized behind it, I don't know. Yeah.
00;04;40;25 - 00;05;00;15
Aaron
It like accelerates like hyper additionality, right? Like so, like, high positionality, like this notion that you can kind of, assert that you want the future to kind of operate in a certain way and then just through that assertion, you make it more likely that it's going to come to fruition. And so by adding like financial incentives to that, it can have a positive right.
00;05;00;15 - 00;05;17;21
Aaron
Like you can actually hopefully bring things into the future quicker. But at the same time, you could you could paint a pretty dark picture, which you could also bring into the future too. I don't know if folks have seen it, but there's even like some prediction markets around, like certain regions in, in the Ukraine or disputed regions.
00;05;17;24 - 00;05;36;26
Aaron
And whether it's like the Ukraine and Russia, where people are betting on whether or not it will be controlled by Ukrainian forces or Russian forces. And so the early glimmers of this already kind of happening, like on the one hand, that's like interesting to kind of know what people on the ground may think about, you know, how safe or secure those regions are.
00;05;37;04 - 00;05;47;27
Aaron
But at the same time, it's like a twist away from, you know, some, you know, like nefarious warlord, from, like incentivizing, you know, some some sort of bad activity there. Right?
00;05;48;04 - 00;05;51;20
Pri
Yeah. What do they call those, like the kill markets or whatever? I mean, it's.
00;05;51;21 - 00;05;52;18
Chris
Assassination.
00;05;52;18 - 00;05;53;15
Pri
Markets. Yeah.
00;05;53;15 - 00;06;18;21
Aaron
It's fascinating. Yeah. So it's not exactly there. And like that's a rabbit hole. It's like, you know, I think there's like a, there's a Goodwins lore, like if you, leave a chat thread open long enough, it's eventually going to lead to, like, accusations of everybody being Nazis. I think that there's, like, a comparable law when it comes to prediction markets where, you know, if there isn't, like, reasonable rules for the road, like you're the endpoint is going to be something dark, like an assassination market.
00;06;18;21 - 00;06;24;03
Aaron
So I kind of feel like social media has already hit that endpoint, but that that's a separate story.
00;06;24;05 - 00;06;35;24
Chris
Yeah. So before we get to warlord as a service, let's like close the loop on this, regulatory trip to the past. If everyone if so many people were against it, how did we end up getting it? What was the.
00;06;35;26 - 00;06;58;01
Aaron
So Koski, you know, they fought it in court and they this is my, best understanding. And they pretty much got clearance for that to happen. There was a couple early political prediction markets. One was called Intrade. I think it was based in, the great country of Ireland. And, and they were operating, I think they had a U.S outpost and then were forced to shut down after regulatory action.
00;06;58;09 - 00;07;16;00
Aaron
There was a couple other ones that Google was running internally, which I think they received like no action really from the government related to because it was for internal purposes. And there was an education, one run by Iowa that also, I think had that relief, just because it was in an educational, construct. And I think it was very low dollar stakes.
00;07;16;02 - 00;07;34;10
Aaron
But I think Koski kind of, pushed them or pushed this issue in courts. And they won, you know, decisive victory. And that kind of opened up their the aperture of them operating in the US. And then there was also Poly Market, which even though was based in the US, was operating in other countries, where the rules may be different.
00;07;34;12 - 00;07;40;29
Aaron
And I think the growth there combined with this win in in court by Kelsey, just kind of open this up.
00;07;41;02 - 00;08;05;06
Chris
Got it. Okay. So we've got a call, once a week on Monday night to reach up it up and we get all over the place. We're chatting a little bit about, prediction markets and some of the potential downsides of it or like the, the jurisdictional arbitrage they enable. And one of the things we were talking about was ways to capitalize on insider information.
00;08;05;08 - 00;08;35;26
Chris
And lo and behold, a couple days later, like, we pulled it, pulled it out of the ether into reality, there's someone on Twitter postulating that, a Google insider is on Poly Market and that they made bets around the performance of Gemini three back in May, and they cleared six like low six figures off of that. But then they had about a million bucks on, upcoming search results.
00;08;35;26 - 00;08;58;09
Chris
And apparently the search results got pushed, a couple days earlier than expected. And as far as and cleaned up and took a million bucks in. And then someone's on Twitter is pointing the finger and saying, this has to be someone at Google. Right. And so here's us being like, well, this this could happen. And a few days later, there's plausible evidence that this in fact did happen.
00;08;58;12 - 00;09;29;09
Chris
And then another thing around, prediction markets that I caught off the timeline. That was interesting. 60 minutes, I guess did a piece on, poly markets big as well, and that they had, I guess put $400 million of action out over the course of the year and only cleared 3 million bucks on it. And that's something like one of these things that's interesting to me about prediction markets is like, I don't feel like there's a lot of juice on them.
00;09;29;09 - 00;09;56;24
Chris
I'm not saying like they're useful or don't provide a service or anything. I'm just saying, like in our day and age, right. Like you're going to keep, I don't know, like information wants to be free. You're putting information in marketplaces. I like the upsides of engaging in these things as, like a, a, a return on capital and a return on time might not be as big as other speculative activities.
00;09;56;26 - 00;09;57;10
Chris
Yeah.
00;09;57;10 - 00;10;17;25
Aaron
And, you know, this has been like the advantage and disadvantage to the, the, the folks that are having geeked on information markets, their advantage is, is that it helps people that do have like more expertise or, or kind of, on the ground knowledge. It gives them an incentive to kind of disclose that. And that's why they argue that prediction markets are more predictive.
00;10;17;25 - 00;10;34;22
Aaron
Right? Inaccurate. But at the same time, we have like a whole bunch of rules and laws in the US at least. And I think in other jurisdictions that try to limit that so that you're not, you know, unfairly profiting or manipulating like a market in some capacity. And so I just think we're going to see more of these stories.
00;10;34;22 - 00;11;05;09
Aaron
And I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, this, like kind of, unease that people have related to it. And I don't know if that's how you focus just over time leads to like, you know, some sort of, like, comprehensive rulemaking kind of related to it where maybe certain, you know, markets are kind of off limits. And in a specific jurisdiction, you know, or courts and or regulators say, hey, if you like, are in a big company, you know, as part of your obligations, you're not permitted to, to kind of participate in, in this activity.
00;11;05;16 - 00;11;23;28
Aaron
And I haven't done the analysis yet to know whether or not it would fall into it. But but I feel like that's the big risk, right, that it falls into, like some sort of like an insider trading, type, situation. So even though it's not trading the stock, it's, it's kind of trading, proprietary nonpublic information in an improper way.
00;11;24;00 - 00;11;37;08
Aaron
So, I think the tricky, tricky area, a little bit of a gray area. But, you know, I'm assuming as these things kind of scale, we'll probably get, you know, some reasonable rules in the road that get applied to it.
00;11;37;10 - 00;11;46;15
Pri
I think there has to be I mean, there's definitely people that are like making bets on insider knowledge. So I wonder even how you like figure that out though.
00;11;46;18 - 00;12;06;14
Derek
Well, I guess I think I think it's the same as equities. Right. Like we have all of these rules preventing directors or corporate insiders from being able to kind of like breach the duty of loyalty and commercialize some sort of like event that, that they have proprietary knowledge on. I don't think prediction markets are any different from that perspective.
00;12;06;14 - 00;12;26;27
Derek
They're they allow you to express an economic view. We, you know, probably don't want to tolerate that. And so I just think the rules of how insiders and directors and kind of like the duty of loyalty just expands to these markets in the same way, which is like, you know, retroactively policing behavior based on misconduct.
00;12;26;29 - 00;12;39;15
Aaron
Yeah, completely. So I, I don't know, I mean, Derek, maybe you know better than me. I just don't know if that's true. Like expressly prohibited or there's like some president precedent related to it. But I think that there's a pretty reasonable analogy there. Like at a minimum.
00;12;39;15 - 00;13;00;23
Derek
I do too. Yeah. Yeah, I do too. I think we're just waiting for like the first big case. It was kind of like obviously this was, you know, a very different regime and it was the DOJ. But like, you know, the, seeing NFTs, an insider kind of behavior and breaching that duty of royalty at OpenSea, that expansion of like, how insider rules work.
00;13;00;23 - 00;13;22;09
Derek
Obviously it was not a security, but seeing that expansion happen with like a different vehicle, I just I get the sense that prediction markets are just are ultimately just going to fall in that same, the same crosshairs. Chris, part of a really interesting point, which was like, well, who's making money on these? Like the, the, the I think the 2020 video was really interesting.
00;13;22;12 - 00;13;44;19
Derek
And like, it showed kind of like it laid out kind of like, some of, like the wacky economics to, prediction markets right now. It's like very, very, very low leverage activity compared to kind of like purpose markets are going spot long on, you know, a crypto that's up that can go up 5 or 600% in the, you know, course of six months.
00;13;44;22 - 00;14;03;20
Derek
And I you know, when I look at the prediction market landscape, I it's the thing that comes up for me is like, it kind of feels like Uber or like left where it's like they ceded this really valuable service for people to kind of get picked up and dropped off anywhere. And they used on the supply side, they use like humans, human drivers to do that.
00;14;03;20 - 00;14;26;15
Derek
And I think the economics of Uber and Lyft have always been wacky. It's like they're, you know, these things are wildly profitable. Like they relied on venture funding to kind of get these networks off the ground. And I think everyone has always realized, like, the end goal is not having humans drive things around. It's having, you know, autonomous vehicles drive people around and drop off food and so on and so forth.
00;14;26;18 - 00;14;44;13
Derek
And this is just like a necessary bootstrapping phase to kind of like get the the network off the ground. And as long as the demand side continues to kind of like demands of that product, you know, in the future you can kind of use that bootstrapping phase as like a, a loss leader for like the real product down the line.
00;14;44;15 - 00;15;07;15
Derek
And I look at prediction market betting as the same way. It's like right now it's like crypto natives that are, you know, inefficiently pricing these markets. But like, there's no world that exists to me where the real, you know, benefits of like at least markets pricing these things is coming from high frequency traders and agents that are, you know, you know, hedging bets for corporations.
00;15;07;15 - 00;15;32;21
Derek
And these you know, a lot of like how these things get priced and repriced happens moves from like you know Uber's to let's call it like machine to machine coordination. And like right now we're kind of in like these weird teenage year phase of like getting these networks off the ground. But like, you know, once you can price any event with some sort of probability and see how that probability shifts, like people are going to build on top of that, they're going to demand it.
00;15;32;21 - 00;16;02;00
Derek
They're going to want to use that for forecasting. They're going to want to, you know, start building complex financial instruments on top of that. And like, as long as the demand side continues to demand that payload, just like people want to get picked up by Ubers, you'll see this invisible swap happen on the background that moves from like, people making, you know, very little, right, relative to kind of like the dollar value that they're putting into it to more autonomous systems that are really kind of moving these markets around.
00;16;02;00 - 00;16;04;25
Derek
That's my thesis at least. And I.
00;16;04;27 - 00;16;28;23
Aaron
I think you're right. Yeah, yeah. And I think I mean, there was an interesting little experiment. It's, it's the I forgot what they call it. It's like maybe like, finance arena. I forgot the exact name, but they're, they gave, like, all these large LMS, like a little seed amount of capital. And then their, their paper trading to kind of see if they can beat the market.
00;16;28;25 - 00;16;53;02
Aaron
At this point, they're not like all the large models, like whether it's open AI, anthropic, you know, be a pick, pick the model. But last week a mysterious new model kind of entered the race. And it's been, it looks like it's pretty consistently beating the market right now, which is kind of wild. My understanding is it may have come out of like some people that were at DeepMind or ran DeepMind.
00;16;53;05 - 00;17;06;05
Aaron
And it looks like they're beginning to crack it. And I think the same thing's going to happen here, Derek, with prediction markets. Right. Like we'll have like AI systems that are a little bit better at predicting things. And then they'll participate in these markets too, which is which is pretty cool.
00;17;06;07 - 00;17;15;14
Pri
What is that? Like, do you think that they just like, literally scrape sentiment across like every social media platform and Reddit and elsewhere and then bet on that sentiment?
00;17;15;17 - 00;17;31;08
Aaron
I think that's probably going to be lots of different strategies pre I don't know if there's going to be just one like that. That seems like a like a feasible hypothesis. But maybe that doesn't work. Maybe it's, you know, anchoring on something that we right now I don't think is significant. But, you know, when reality turns out to be significant.
00;17;31;08 - 00;17;59;02
Aaron
So I just think there's a lot of like dark patterns that were, you know, like undercurrents that we don't fully know. And that's the promise these systems will be able to kind of identify them and, and kind of bring that, you know, to the surface. And that's what prediction markets do. Well, I think for me, the one thing that I do find a little bit concerning or and I know other folks have it have too, it just it's really they kind of institutionalizing like gambling, which was one of the concerns that people had.
00;17;59;04 - 00;18;01;24
Aaron
And I just don't know if that's socially beneficial.
00;18;01;27 - 00;18;29;29
Derek
Yeah. It's a great question. I don't think it is socially beneficial. I think it is commercially and economically beneficial. And so you can kind of contort, you know, if you're able to kind of like root some sort of productivity back to humans and how we exist. And as a result of kind of like this new unlock in economics, then I guess you can kind of like, you know, walk into an argument where it's like this thing is, socially and culturally beneficial for mankind.
00;18;29;29 - 00;18;53;24
Derek
But yeah, the truth is, is like, we're on this train and it's going really fast now, and it's around the financialization of everything. And no market will be spared. No idea will be spared, no power will be spared. And I don't know if I'm, like, resigned to the inevitability. It's more just like this is what the the march to efficiency and and kind of like technology kind of looks like.
00;18;54;01 - 00;19;16;01
Derek
It's like it was we were always going to kind of, you know, figure out how to take like very opaque data and, find, find ways to, you know, digitize it. And, financial wise, it and, you know, build efficient engines around it. And, yeah, it's like, it's a weird time to be alive right now.
00;19;16;03 - 00;19;33;23
Derek
I do kind of like, I do concede that, like, you could make arguments that like, it's, Yeah, it's it's a net negative socially to to do that. And some of, like the second and third order effects around it, especially in like these growing teenagers. Right. Like, where we don't have the proper rules of the road yet.
00;19;33;26 - 00;19;50;16
Derek
I think, you know, there's a real argument to be made that like, yeah, some, some, some otherwise negative things are going to kind of like, happen in the short to medium term until we kind of figure out exactly the best way to, to move forward as a culture and a society around, like this new paradigm.
00;19;50;18 - 00;20;05;25
Aaron
Yeah, I like the it's like you have, like a pragmatism, Derek. And just a realism related to it. It's kind of like the same thing with, with AI slop, right? You can lamented. But it's not the slop. It's not come back in the in the bottle. Right. Like the.
00;20;05;29 - 00;20;07;04
Derek
Bottle.
00;20;07;06 - 00;20;36;21
Pri
Yeah. So Chris made this point on a dog call and I've been thinking a lot about it is like is the end point of like the hyper speculation, just like markets are so efficient that there's no predict, there's no like surprise or, or spontaneity anymore. And that could potentially lead to like cultural stagnation. And maybe that's part of the reason why culture feels so stagnant is it's almost too much information, too much availability, that it's become a little bit boring.
00;20;36;21 - 00;20;38;03
Pri
This is a little bit of a stretch.
00;20;38;06 - 00;20;39;03
Aaron
It's a good.
00;20;39;06 - 00;20;40;28
Chris
Yeah. No, it's it's a.
00;20;41;00 - 00;20;41;15
Aaron
It's a great.
00;20;41;15 - 00;20;42;28
Chris
One for everything.
00;20;43;01 - 00;20;51;13
Aaron
It's a good critique of exo capitalism. Right. It's kind of like by separating markets from people you're just going to get pure homogenization.
00;20;51;15 - 00;21;31;26
Chris
It's did a breaking news today around our, our friend Larry Ellison there. Sky dance, studio run by his son. Right. Was trying to acquire Warner Brothers and, you know, so Warner Brothers had to put itself up in this competitive bidding process and Netflix wins. And so now we're in a situation where, you know, historically, the one of the most artist friendly movie studios, you know, someone like Clint Eastwood basically could make any movie he wanted to anytime he wanted to is now in control of Netflix in the algorithms.
00;21;31;28 - 00;21;53;02
Chris
And so like, yeah, it's one of these things where, right as everything gets more and more efficient and we start losing like these individual choices or like, I don't know, it's just like what is coming tomorrow, right? Like in the optimization of everything. Like what? What gets bled out here?
00;21;53;04 - 00;22;11;24
Derek
I have a I have a thought around this, which is like, I think this is a really great point, and I kind of agree with the line of thinking. I think if I were to if I were to paint a, a picture around why markets will forever be inefficient is the incentives for the world that you guys are describing lend to.
00;22;11;27 - 00;22;45;28
Derek
There being massive, massive benefits to staying opaque for as long as possible? So I'd like to use a very crude example. It's like, imagine if you could use private money, private servers, private warehouses in the middle of nowhere to create an immense amount of value over five years, the alpha becomes like the shock value of of launching this thing after five years of working on it, without anybody understanding that you've been building this, you know, whatever very discreet thing that to me will always continue to be a market moving event if you can do it in the right way.
00;22;46;00 - 00;23;09;07
Derek
And I think we have like, you know, lots of history to point towards, like we've always humans have always kind of used privacy to their advantage to, to, to for this. I mean, like an example would be like companies not needing to go public for as long as they possibly can, like OpenAI is doing this right now. It's like, why report to the world what our specific financial statements exactly look like?
00;23;09;07 - 00;23;30;06
Derek
Or, you know, there are no benefits to kind of like showing people are exact cost structure or the location of all of our goods and services. You know, the opex in the CapEx that we're spending and, you know, the year over year growth. And, I mean, it's it's much easier for them to just say, like, hey, we are making $20 billion this year, and you're gonna have to believe that and take it at face value.
00;23;30;08 - 00;23;56;11
Derek
I think taken to the extreme, we'll just see this like more operators kind of move outside of like these. The like market transparency as a structural advantage to kind of creating value, which to me is, is is the thing that kind of tempers this idea that like, everything is going to be moving at the speed of total market visibility at 24 seven, if that makes sense?
00;23;56;13 - 00;24;28;18
Chris
No, that's a great point. And that's something I wrestle with right, in building my little thing. When when do I have enough that is worth sharing? And not only that, but like, how long does that novelty even hold? And what am I giving away by revealing what I'm up to? You know, like, I actually just figured out something last night that is a really, really cool trick and is going to enable me to do like, a lot of things I wanted to do, but it's literally a cool trick.
00;24;28;23 - 00;24;46;26
Chris
Once you know what I did, it's trivial to reproduce it. And so, like, I might sit on this thing for like six months until I can integrate it into a total package. And then once the trick gets exposed, who gives a shit? Because it's just another brick in the wall. Whereas in the old days I could actually go out and raise on this trick.
00;24;46;26 - 00;25;16;18
Chris
It's that novel. But like that world has gone. Or another way, like we were chatting, in discord about cursor. Right. And what happens now that these models are so good and the Chinese and the open source projects are able to play catch up in tighter and tighter timelines, right? What happens when, like my 55KA month and cursor spend is replaced by, you know, Qn coder 3.2?
00;25;16;20 - 00;25;32;03
Aaron
Yeah, I think it's, it's really interesting. I think we're going to also see that at the hyper Hyperscaler and too, right where there's an incentive now because of that fast catch up that everybody can do to not share information.
00;25;32;05 - 00;25;54;22
Aaron
Which is different, which is more like old school. Right. Like that would be like the business posture in like the 1950s and 60s where trade secrets mattered. IP mattered, right? Like people were a little bit less open. I think we grew up like collectively, like in an in an environment where that, that norm was eroded away, where you wanted to go open first, you wanted to kind of get distribution first.
00;25;54;22 - 00;26;28;08
Aaron
And open was a good strategy for that. And I feel like that is like reversing a bit, like on that, on that front. And I do think that there is like a weird homogenization that is occurring when everybody's kind of like getting answers from the same source or interacting more dynamically, like with the same source. The internet's moving so quick that, you know, like, I, I just remember what, like a summer or two ago when, like, on TikTok, a bunch of, you know, people started wearing cowboy boots and then, like, literally like the next day in, like, my neighborhood, there was all these women wearing cowboy boots.
00;26;28;08 - 00;26;37;05
Aaron
I was like, what the heck is going on? It's like insane. Like, the trend just moves super quick, too. It's definitely like, interesting times, like you said. Eric.
00;26;37;07 - 00;26;41;06
Chris
Are we ready to take the big leap here? And go into the scary unknown?
00;26;41;09 - 00;26;45;29
Pri
Yeah. I'm scared, but what what are you what are you what are you, What are you thinking?
00;26;46;01 - 00;27;30;01
Chris
I'm thinking there's going to be a lot less people pretty soon. And by pretty soon, I mean over the coming decades. And that part of what's going on here, right, with market in control and being able to dictate so many of these things, is that it is pricing out the ability to have families, and that this is actually like in a not in an intentional way, but in a, like a systemic desire, like the big giant system of exo capitalism is recognizing and anticipating, a surplus labor problem and is pricing it out right now through like, this economic, selection pressure.
00;27;30;04 - 00;27;33;28
Aaron
Are you saying the the the internet wants less people? Chris. Is that what you're saying?
00;27;33;28 - 00;27;58;13
Chris
I think capitalism wants less people. Yes. Capitalism already knows that Waymo's are going to replace all drivers. And therefore, if you are making a living as a driver that's out the window, right, like this flattening of everything and I, I wrote an article about this back in March, and I think it was one of these things that was like a little too scary, a little too dark, and no one really wanted to think about it.
00;27;58;15 - 00;28;18;13
Chris
And then pre posted like an, similar article and in a discord or someone did and I was like, oh yeah, look at that. You remember, I remember I was talking about this and you didn't wanna think about it. And here it is again. Right. Like there are certain things I think if you just like if you're willing to entertain and entertain is the wrong word.
00;28;18;13 - 00;28;35;13
Chris
But if you're willing to consider probabilities you don't want to think about, they're staring you right in the face. And like, declining birth rates is really one of these things where like, yes, people like, you know, every once in a while, like people wave the alarm, but no one's, like, seriously trying to solve this problem.
00;28;35;16 - 00;28;40;09
Aaron
I don't know what to say or Chris, except I. I think you may be right, but hope you're very wrong.
00;28;40;11 - 00;28;43;28
Chris
Yeah, like, I don't want to be right about this. No one wants to be right about this.
00;28;44;00 - 00;29;04;20
Pri
My one thing on this is, do you think that this is all, economically driven, like the desire for less children and families is primarily. I mean, everyone says that it's economics. Like, people would have kids if they could afford it, whatever. But there's also, you know, technology has created I mean, there's like the loneliness thing and people are a little bit more disconnected from humans.
00;29;04;20 - 00;29;33;07
Pri
I think that's only compounding. Like people are more connected to the like the AI companion thing, for example, like people are finding ways to fulfill themselves through other means, or they're not fulfilling themselves or at all. I mean, that's all to say. I just I'm curious if this is just like a millennial generational thing because like, and maybe younger generations, like, start having more kids again, this is more, more of like a, a blip in time as opposed to like a larger trend over a couple generations.
00;29;33;09 - 00;29;40;24
Aaron
Where it feels like it's definitely a trend because it's global, right? It's global. Yeah. It's not like a cultural thing. And I guess I.
00;29;40;24 - 00;29;42;19
Pri
Think economics are just.
00;29;42;22 - 00;30;01;08
Aaron
Like it has to be in part economics. Right? Like why did so many people have kids way back in the day? Like they needed to have hands, you know, and labor available to, you know, farm. Right. Like big families were? I'm sure there was lots of people that just wanted that because they thought it was like their ethical or moral imperative as like a human.
00;30;01;08 - 00;30;07;22
Aaron
But I think part of it was a pragmatic need for like, labor, you know? So I do think it's one of these like mixed questions.
00;30;07;29 - 00;30;25;06
Pri
I also think capitalism could solve this because there's a lot of people doing like the artificial womb stuff, like I've talked to multiple founders. Doing the IVF has only grown tremendously among the younger populations. Like, I don't know, I feel like there's going to be like counters to this that we're not even foreseeing.
00;30;25;08 - 00;30;36;04
Chris
So one where are you hanging out that you're talking to, like multiple people about bag babies? Like, how is this coming up? So what neck of the woods are you having these these chats, actually.
00;30;36;07 - 00;30;40;19
Aaron
And that's what Aiden's interested in. Chris. Our, our AI investor who wants.
00;30;40;19 - 00;30;56;21
Pri
To make babies. This category is interesting, so I like I reached out to like this. There is this one project that's installed, and there's this other company called Kangaroo Bio that's doing it. I can go into how they're doing it, but it's yeah, I mean, there's a couple companies out there that are trying to do this.
00;30;56;23 - 00;31;28;22
Chris
Okay. Well got it. So for that that's wild. And then two it's not just having kids like we're also in the sex recession. And so like clearly like being online is replacing other activities that that like exist outside the realm of like economics like this is also lifestyle as well. Because like you can still have sex and not make babies thanks to like, you know, birth control and whatever happened in 1972, in the Supreme Court or whatever that was, you know.
00;31;28;25 - 00;31;50;20
Aaron
I think all this stuff comes in waves, like Chris, like I already see, like the counter reaction, whether it's like, you know, locking up phones in schools, like, I was watching some, you know, bubblegum show on, on Amazon and like, was a bunch of teenagers or like the main characters. And they were like, throwing their phones in the bag to, like and, like, commenting about how toxic these things are to them.
00;31;50;20 - 00;32;13;06
Aaron
So I just think that there's it's just like, you know, that there's new risks that kind of were present with this technology. Humans kind of adjust related to it. I think human, humans and humanity will always kind of be at the center. Maybe people react by becoming more religious and and like leaning more of a moral imperative, you know, kind of like a back to the land type it.
00;32;13;08 - 00;32;34;03
Aaron
And I don't know, I just think it's like people do it just it just doesn't happen. Like overnight. You know, culture I think moves slower than lots of people want. Unfortunately, politics moves slower than a lot of people want. Unfortunately, I think I think it's just kind of like the rhythm of of how we work. But I do think, like the advancements we see in kind of robotics is just it's happening.
00;32;34;06 - 00;32;55;00
Aaron
Right. And, I think even the Trump administration just added to its like, repertoire, like a newfound focus on, like, robotic tech, like we're seeing, like even like amazing artists play around with it and I don't know, I feel like, I feel like we, you know, the end of 2025 into 2026, it's really not just now.
00;32;55;00 - 00;33;02;10
Aaron
AI it's really like AI, crypto and and robotics. It's like the, the three the three legs of the stool here.
00;33;02;12 - 00;33;25;14
Chris
All right. One more comment around. This is maybe we swing in the sunnier things. Another thing we're chatting about this week right is the Waymo obsession. And I've yet to be in a Waymo pre was in one over Thanksgiving. I'll be out in California in January. I believe. And so I'll get a chance to Waymo. And it's actually one of like the few moments in technology I'm really looking forward to is to experience the driverless car thing.
00;33;25;16 - 00;33;50;00
Chris
But we were saying and we were speculating. Oh, and when when there more, driverless cars on the road than people driving. Right. And as a side like out of that conversation came insurance is going to price people out of driving and like, because it's going to be so much safer that the cost of being able to like, ensure your own car is going to go through the roof, and that's going to be the tipping point.
00;33;50;00 - 00;34;00;22
Chris
I don't know if it happens or not, but I can see it being like really, really plausible, right? That like, you just don't you can't afford to drive your own car anymore one day.
00;34;00;25 - 00;34;10;11
Aaron
I think, you know, but you're going to maybe have both cars, right? Maybe that's more efficient. I just think it's always like a dynamic system, but just like, not a completely efficient.
00;34;10;13 - 00;34;15;10
Chris
This is America, Aaron. I ought to be able to drive my damn car.
00;34;15;12 - 00;34;24;08
Aaron
I know, right? But like, America was also like a farming nation to start. Right? So, the times are changing as as Derek said.
00;34;24;10 - 00;34;32;11
Chris
All right. Fine, fine. Derek, did you get down in Miami? Are you calling in from, like, somewhere warm and fun?
00;34;32;13 - 00;34;33;02
Aaron
I hope so.
00;34;33;03 - 00;34;36;15
Derek
I'm calling in from somewhere warm, fun. But not in Florida right now.
00;34;36;17 - 00;34;38;09
Aaron
Basel in Florida look cool.
00;34;38;11 - 00;34;43;14
Derek
They do look very cool. Is pretty out there. I thought one, I thought we had somebody over there.
00;34;43;17 - 00;34;44;28
Pri
Josh went out there on our.
00;34;45;04 - 00;35;09;10
Derek
Oh got it from tribute. Yeah. Very very cool. Yeah I mean I've seen the we've talked to we've talked a lot about Basel on the Flamingo calls over the last month. I've seen. Yeah. Like you know there's so much hard work that went into that thing, you know, some spectacular talent that's presenting work and taking different approaches. To, you know, showing you work in that type of a space.
00;35;09;10 - 00;35;24;15
Derek
So, yeah, just really proud of everyone involved there. It looks like it's been it's been, well, trafficked. And I think people are pretty excited broadly about, about the effort. And, so yeah, kudos to to everyone involved.
00;35;24;18 - 00;35;28;21
Aaron
It feels like people's having his moment and or another moment, I guess, like,
00;35;28;24 - 00;35;34;05
Chris
Doesn't always have moments. Isn't that the magic of people is you give him a stage. He has a moment.
00;35;34;07 - 00;35;54;03
Pri
I don't know. This feels different to me. This is, like, literally, I, like, can express, like, all over every single social media feed that I've been on, like, buy. But by Wednesday, I think I immediately was like, wow, okay. Like, that's when I do open and I could see it across like every art account I follow along with.
00;35;54;03 - 00;36;13;23
Pri
Like a lot of the people I knew at Basel, everyone had shots of it. It's like I saw it was on. It was in Wall Street Journal. New York Post covered it. It's, I saw something this morning. People posted that CVS is filming it, like went to Basel to film it. Like it feels like a bigger moment actually.
00;36;13;23 - 00;36;37;20
Pri
Like, I don't know, don't want to be extreme, but like the thought I, the thought, I had this morning around the people work and the, you know, the, the is it like dangerous animals, that whole art piece that feels like the biggest thing since his $69 million painting at Christie's? Like, I feel like it's it's pretty big.
00;36;37;23 - 00;36;40;21
Pri
I don't want to overstate things, but it it's like.
00;36;40;23 - 00;36;57;26
Aaron
A cultural I think it's bigger now. I actually think it's bigger pretty because I think the that big sale just took people by surprise and was in, in part like a reaction to just all the excitement that was brewing in the, crypto digital asset market at the time. It was kind of like, like a reflection of that.
00;36;57;26 - 00;37;28;02
Aaron
I think here it's really like his brilliance and innovation and artistic, you know, merit that's coming through. Like he's touching on a nerve that I think people are feeling, which is like, these robots are coming, like they're weird. He made them even weirder. Like, they're going to be weird. And I just think it's so differentiated and different than, you know, the normal stuff that the art world is looking at, that it it really stands out and it does feel like it's, inflection point in part.
00;37;28;04 - 00;37;45;19
Aaron
And, you know, we've seen this in the NFT market for a while, right? Like a lot of the the creators in that space are at the bleeding edge. They are kind of pushing the envelope. And for the past year, we've heard about how they want to play around with like, more mechanical devices, whether that's like plotters and different painters, you know, to robots.
00;37;45;19 - 00;38;10;28
Aaron
Right. And so people's just one of a cluster of artists that are kind of exploring that, too. You can understand why they wanted to do that, right? When you kind of see it in the flesh. It's interactive, it's engaging. It's, you know, absurd. It's, it's interesting. Right. And I think it's like, reflective of, like what we're going to have to grapple with, which is like, we're going to have to navigate this world with all these, like, little weird creatures that we built, like running around around us.
00;38;10;28 - 00;38;11;16
Aaron
Right?
00;38;11;18 - 00;38;43;12
Pri
Yeah. It's true. I mean, it's definitely a commentary. Yeah. I thought that was great. I mean, from what I've also heard, also outside of the people stuff, too, just talking to people on the ground that people are saying that the presence is pretty huge. Like a lot of people are walking straight into the digital art thing. I've also seen some negative reactions to that, as expected, but for the most part, it's like captured a lot of attention and everyone's like really intrigued by the fact that, like, everyone can, you know, one of X copies, bubbles, you can kind of go through the flow and that and I think people are enjoying the process of like
00;38;43;12 - 00;38;52;04
Pri
even collecting the work there too, which is like a little bit different. It's a little more networked. And so I've been seeing some good reception, at least on Twitter related to that.
00;38;52;04 - 00;38;57;06
Derek
But what's been the what's the negative feedback you've seen? Just like curiosity.
00;38;57;08 - 00;39;23;05
Pri
The negative, you know, I mean, the negative feedback I saw, I was watching this like full reel about them going to like it was, I forgot where it was, but or what account it was. I think it might have been like hype art or some, some art account. I think they, they're like the they were talking about the Jack butcher receipt thing and how that felt like people were giving money for a receipt.
00;39;23;05 - 00;39;44;24
Pri
Like, I think they're just like mocking the conceptual aspect of it. And then I think people they just thought was just like, it's the same thing that like Warhol got like, oh, it's so crass and like different and weird and like, so it it's just that. And then I think it's copy the laundromat thing people thought was more of like, activation as opposed to artwork.
00;39;44;26 - 00;39;49;08
Pri
But I mean, I think like those critiques, I guess I'm just like, okay, sure.
00;39;49;10 - 00;39;51;15
Aaron
I can't make everybody happy.
00;39;51;18 - 00;39;52;26
Pri
Yeah. Like, it's just like, okay.
00;39;52;26 - 00;39;54;03
Derek
That's our baby.
00;39;54;05 - 00;39;55;08
Pri
Yeah, yeah.
00;39;55;08 - 00;39;58;26
Aaron
I was going to say, that's fun. Everybody loves it.
00;39;58;28 - 00;39;59;12
Chris
Yeah.
00;39;59;12 - 00;40;01;07
Aaron
Like you've you've solved the problem.
00;40;01;09 - 00;40;29;06
Derek
I think those are I think those are. Yeah. Those are fair takes. Like I think everyone has an opinion on on what resonates, what doesn't, what work is supposed to do and what it's not supposed to do. I personally thought, I thought Jack's work was spectacular. Like I think it was, you know, my, listen, I so I've gone through all of the, the artists in their work and, I would I'm, I'm happy with like, the effort that was put at zero ten.
00;40;29;06 - 00;40;57;01
Derek
It's not my I've talked about this a lot on filming because it's like not my my thing. It's like I, I think there's such a a, an amazing ability to take these new tools and to lean into them in a really interesting way. Browser based, networked over the internet, totally accessible. Anyone can participate. 24 seven you know, digital ownership without any sort of physical manifestation.
00;40;57;01 - 00;41;19;09
Derek
Like there's some real radical shit with crypto art that got me into this space five, six years ago. It's the reason why, you know, I I'm started making investments in things like superrare and art blocks and, in, in a number of like the marketplaces and, I think there's a tremendous amount of counterweight that exists around crypto art that just cannot be found on a trade show floor.
00;41;19;11 - 00;41;53;25
Derek
And so, if I were to pick out any maybe like, anything that, like, gave me pause about this, like, total of element to the Basel stuff. It's like functionally the maybe the one fear I had was you're, you're asking these brilliant artists to contort their work to fit into kind of like to shoehorn it into, like a trade show floor for an established contemporary art market where the, you know, it's open at 8 a.m. and it closes at 6 p.m. and you've got people who are walking by and like, it's a trade show floor.
00;41;53;25 - 00;42;13;09
Derek
So like, there's walls that separate every work. You're you only have so much latitude to kind of like use the booth and it's like it's just different. It's like and it's not better or worse. I'll just say it's like, just not my thing. It's like it's not really the thing. I that got me excited about crypto art. If I'm in for total transparency.
00;42;13;11 - 00;42;46;22
Derek
That being said, what if you look at the medium for like what it what it's supposed to do, you're activating kind of a different class of buyers and a different class of art enjoyer and, you know, a class of folks who maybe haven't been able to kind of like get behind digital in a really meaningful way. And so you're, you're you're creating this new touchpoint of this activation for them to kind of like, see it in a new light, which I fully appreciate, and why I'm so supportive of all of the artists and all of the artwork and all of the, the galleries and, and, and even, you know, the, the team at Art
00;42;46;22 - 00;43;13;09
Derek
Basel for hiring, crew to kind of like, resource this effort and put it together. But I would say, like the, the thing that was like struck on me. It's like, well, will the art, well, the art be, you know, misshapen or like contorted in a way that just like, doesn't really serve the medium very well. And I would say I'm really happy with the way the artists have all approached this in their own unique way, like Robot dogs was a very authentic way for people to approach this, this landscape.
00;43;13;11 - 00;43;40;16
Derek
You know, the the Ex Copy Bubbles project is like it's, you know, it's very much like his it's a, it's a, it's his way of approaching kind of like, an audience to kind of like get go a little bit further down the rabbit hole in terms of like how they can think about digital starting with, like, this, you know, this physical laundromat, I think, I think, and, and, you know, I love what Joe did, which is just like, no physical.
00;43;40;21 - 00;44;05;09
Derek
Like, my work is digital. It's like this very complex, layered, you know, very, like, thought pushing, you know, kind of like digital, you know, video artwork. And I want you to just look at this screen and enjoy it and participate with it. And also you can interact with it further through a browser and like a very crypto native way, like, I just love what Joe did here.
00;44;05;09 - 00;44;28;13
Derek
I think it was really important. And it he made zero sacrifices in terms of like his art making. And I'll say like Jack's. To me. Jack's project was like so brilliant. It was like a total commentary on on the trade show experience on the floor and what art is, how its price, the economics of it, full transparency. It's like, you know, his total cost structure involved to like, buy the booth and set up shop and like build it out.
00;44;28;13 - 00;44;53;04
Derek
And what you're doing is you're essentially participating in that whenever you transact art in that setting. And he made that so over and so in your face with like the, you know, the, the, the, you know, the dollar value, you just like confronted as soon as you walk into that, into that exhibition, you know, there's and you know, the receipt is the artwork, there's an NFT receipt that you get as well, and you get this physical receipt.
00;44;53;04 - 00;45;14;11
Derek
And it's just I just thought it was so well done. So, anyway, I think, it's a long way of saying, like, I'm really proud of the artists that that put this much time and thought into how they were. We're going to, you know, take what is otherwise not a crypto art setting and try and work within those walls to, to create something interesting.
00;45;14;11 - 00;45;43;26
Derek
So, yeah, it's, it's just, and, and, and obviously, like, I think, you know, we're all, we're all huge art blocks and Lava Labs fans in here. I just really love that table of, like, that they put in front of like, the coins, with just like all of the pieces from that artwork front and center. It really showed like the algorithm is the artwork, even though they've got these physical, you know, tapestries that are, that are hanging on the walls that you could purchase and understand that computer code made them.
00;45;43;29 - 00;46;00;18
Derek
But they're also they're part of this other network collection of, of coins. And you're asking like, what? These things on the wall are the same as these, you know, collection of digitals that are on this table. And I, you know, I'm just I'm really proud of everyone for, for like, rising to the challenge here and taking it seriously.
00;46;00;18 - 00;46;10;16
Derek
And even if it isn't my thing or other people's things, I'm just I, I look very proudly at the work that was done there. So happy for everyone involved.
00;46;10;18 - 00;46;11;27
Pri
Yeah, I totally agree.
00;46;12;00 - 00;46;24;27
Aaron
I was just I ask that dmitri's work look pretty encouraging. I like that he was, you know, leaning in on display and, and kind of a little bit of grandeur with, with like a sculpture. Yeah.
00;46;25;00 - 00;46;29;09
Pri
And Brian was like, lurking in the Dimitri's booth quite a bit.
00;46;29;10 - 00;46;49;00
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I, I think it's like, also like he chose a really optimistic, like, color palette for it, which I kind of appreciated. So I don't know, it looked really strong. I mean, I was just I was kind of proud that a lot of these creators and artists that we've supported, in, in different ways, are just continuing to produce, you know, work that's notable.
00;46;49;01 - 00;47;10;18
Aaron
Right? Like, it's not a fad, right? It it's real, a real ecosystem and real innovation. And like we saw with digital assets like it can look a little funky. It may not hit people the right way, you know, at first glance, but there's a lot of depth, and a lot of new things that are kind of coming out of the space.
00;47;10;18 - 00;47;14;08
Aaron
And I think that will continue to be the case. It's the tip of the spear.
00;47;14;11 - 00;47;34;15
Chris
Spear? Yeah, yeah. Well, one account I always pay attention to because, you know, he has so many good things to say is Matt Dreyfus impressions of of Basil. And he said walking the floor, what he was struck by was that 0 to 10 was the only digital art at the entire show. He didn't see another screen anywhere else.
00;47;34;15 - 00;47;44;29
Chris
And that to me was just such a crazy head scratcher. And so I'll leave it there. I gotta jump in the car. I'll listen to the rest guys, but, good up. I'll catch your,
00;47;45;01 - 00;47;46;04
Pri
Thanks, Chris.
00;47;46;06 - 00;48;08;04
Aaron
Hey, Derek, when you were mentioning that, I just had a question, and I'm kind of curious what how you're thinking about this, but do you think that, you know, like, if we zoom out in five, ten years for, like, a big, you know, like art Expo, like, like Basel, that it will change the format away from this kind of like, you know, more corporate veneer to it and like, what do you think that could look like?
00;48;08;07 - 00;48;30;01
Derek
Yeah. I don't think Art Basel is going anywhere. There's like too many entrenched and too much capital and interest and ecosystem players and gallery networks and, you know, artists who are work within that format. I just it's like, it's just a thing that will continue to, to go on and, and art fairs in general or will continue to go on.
00;48;30;04 - 00;48;47;06
Derek
And I think and I'm encouraged that like they want or they understand that like, hey, there's a whole new buying class of technologists. I was reading this, Basel recap and I think like the, the head of Art Basel was saying like, you know, the zero ten stuff was a way for us to kind of start attracting like this new class of buyers.
00;48;47;06 - 00;49;24;22
Derek
It's like a technology technologists or entrepreneurs who work in technology who aren't, you know, as interested in kind of like legacy artworks, but very clearly have a bias towards technology. And we want to start encouraging and stimulating that part of the art fair with like great digital work. And, and I think as a result of that, like as long as there's a two way bridge between these two things, I think, yeah, it makes sense that crypto art stuff and digital art probably will continue to have a presence at things like art fairs and, and Basel broadly, just like the I touched on this, but like, there is so much there are so many
00;49;24;22 - 00;49;50;02
Derek
reasons why crypto art is special. And if you really just like, boil it down to like these core value props, it's the stuff that like, you know, art blocks, built a protocol around and led to $2 billion in secondary GMV. It's the reason why Superrare was, you know, doing $30 million in volume globally, every month for like, you know, a two year period or whatever.
00;49;50;02 - 00;50;18;27
Derek
It was. It it's it's, you know, it it's like, it's digital ownership, it's browser based, you know, it's browsers, it's digital screens, it's the ability to kind of like, verify ownership to the point of primary through secondary sales. It's, you know, 24 over seven that 24 seven kind of like database that anyone can read or write to that can view, set ownership and interact with it in, in unique ways.
00;50;19;00 - 00;50;37;28
Derek
It's the protocols that you can engage with once you once you can prove that you own something, to be able to do kind of like new behaviors. It's it's like it's, it's there's, you know, it's there's the ability to create code and put it on Ethereum and be able to use that programmatically to develop new artworks. It's all of these.
00;50;37;28 - 00;50;57;10
Derek
There's so many things about it that you just will never be able to it. When you work with in an art fair setting, you're you're losing some of like these abilities. And so I think two things I think like our fairs are great, I think they'll continue. I think artists will be invited to them and galleries will be invited to present at them.
00;50;57;12 - 00;51;23;10
Derek
And you know, there will be, square blocks that you get to showcase your work in and that will continue. And simultaneously, to me, the most interesting part of crypto art is when you remove all of those intermediaries, all of those kind of, those those artifacts, all of those kind of, the like the, the constraints of physical and really lean into the design space that makes crypto our special.
00;51;23;10 - 00;51;50;00
Derek
It's why I got so interested in this stuff five, six years ago. It's why artists were brought into this space. It's why digital creators first felt empowered. It's like they could make something and then someone halfway across the world seconds later could market a price on it. And then they could now own that thing. It's like there's some really special shit here that you just aren't able to capture when you kind of, like, bring some of these value props into a very constrained setting.
00;51;50;02 - 00;52;12;17
Derek
And so, like my, my interest space is, is always going to be towards the latter. It's like, how do we actually level up and bring knowledge and create technology around the unique design space that crypto now offers that was previously impossible, while also acknowledging that there's real value to like buying the 20 by 20, you know, physical space set.
00;52;12;17 - 00;52;27;18
Derek
And I'll trade show floor and trying to show, you know, show your show your work in that setting. So I know I that's that's largely how I think about it. And I think there's room for everybody to participate in this space. I just know what I like and what I like is more of the kind of the technology, native stuff.
00;52;27;18 - 00;52;29;07
Derek
But that's just me.
00;52;29;09 - 00;52;51;27
Aaron
Yeah, I'm I'm with you on the tech, not the technology native stuff. I just think it reflects, you know, current society and where we're going, like a bit more like, I think the, the part of art that like is future looking, you know, or criticism, just not having like a strong, patina of, of technology just, just doesn't feel right to me.
00;52;51;29 - 00;53;08;17
Aaron
But, you know, the thing and that was beautifully said, Derek. Yeah. I think also for me, the thing I always like pause. And I just really have a hard time wrapping my head around. I think a lot of people do, which is the scale of the internet. And, you know, that's what digital technology provides. And that's what like digital art provides.
00;53;08;18 - 00;53;32;24
Aaron
Like it's the best. It's in the best position to tap into that scale. And I just think it's really hard for my brain and I think other folks brain, to just really wrap their heads around that scale and just massive. And then I think, like you were describing the composability of digital art is really on display too, when you can package it up in a context like what we see at Art Basel, but also in a bunch of other contexts, too.
00;53;32;27 - 00;53;44;26
Aaron
It just it's a lot more malleable. I think. Then, some works and, you know, that's a strength. Some people may view that as a weakness. Like, not everybody's going to respond to that. But I think it's interesting at a minimum.
00;53;44;29 - 00;53;53;25
Derek
Yeah, for sure. And there's room for all of it. And I think that's the, the truly like that's the beauty of permissionless technology. But pre what were you going to say.
00;53;54;01 - 00;54;20;15
Pri
You say I totally align with like just the global network nature. And you know that I think the one thing we've been able to be very expressive of this, like new idea in our smaller cohort of people online crypto, Twitter, even slightly beyond that in the tech world. But it's like very hard to express that idea in a way that's like digestible to people that aren't in in our world.
00;54;20;15 - 00;54;39;07
Pri
And like, maybe this is kind of that, that you're talking about like that Uber in between zone, like the loss leader to get to the end point. Like maybe that's what all of this like it has to be done to actually like share the concept an idea. Because right now you say NFT and people just think Bored Ape like they don't know the breadth of what's there.
00;54;39;07 - 00;55;04;23
Pri
So like then trying to explain this idea of like network, you know, digital art, all of this that we're really excited about just takes time. And I think having at least like having at least attention, a positive like creative output that's bite sized enough, I guess, is probably where we're at for a lot of these people that aren't in our world.
00;55;04;25 - 00;55;37;21
Derek
Yeah, and I think that's totally fair. I think my my only response to that is if you are if your goal is to relentlessly onboard new people into the space and understand what's going on with digital, things like Art Basel make total sense. If your goal is to make fucking great artwork and like, really lean into that and really be completely relentless in the craft and the design space that you're operating in and operating with kind of a total of element to the tools at your disposal that are unique and differentiated.
00;55;37;23 - 00;55;57;02
Derek
You know, my view is like it's just it's just a it's a it's asking like, what? What are you optimizing for here? And what are you what are your goals? And that's why I think the question is just like it always comes back to like, is your goal to just like, commercialize and like let new and more people figure out what you're doing?
00;55;57;03 - 00;56;23;24
Derek
Then, of course, like, it's a amazing marketing opportunity. You're able to kind of create palatable work for people to kind of digest and swallow and, you know, they don't have to get off the couch, so to speak. There. They go to Basel every year. They're walking around, they're doing their thing. But if your goal is really to kind of just like, make unrelenting great fucking artwork on the internet, then like it's it's just a different it's a different way of looking at the question or the problem, if that makes sense.
00;56;23;26 - 00;56;28;02
Pri
Yeah. I think that's very, very, very 113 coded I feel like.
00;56;28;04 - 00;56;48;16
Derek
Yeah I mean I don't, I, I don't know what one, one three thinks about this stuff, but I but but but I think there are artists that are like very. Yeah. That are very, just very myopic and like what they're doing here. And it's like it's not really to sell art and it's, it's, it's a make art. It's to make good art.
00;56;48;16 - 00;57;09;24
Derek
And I think they're the reason why I love this space and I and I'm, I hope I'm not coming off as being critical of anything because I think this is all actually very important. All of the stuff is important. Everyone plays a different role. Everyone is figuring out how best that they can operate within this paradigm. And all of it's valuable to different segments like no segment.
00;57;09;26 - 00;57;35;23
Derek
I wouldn't put any segment above any other segment. I just know that some things are useful for some artists. Some things are not useful for certain artists, some things are useful for the art, some things are less useful for the art. And I think I just walk into all of the stuff, you know, open to the idea that many different types of people are going to participate in lots of different ways in this space is going to be massive and huge, and everyone's going to have a different role in how they want to operate in it.
00;57;35;25 - 00;57;46;01
Pri
That's it. That's right. I agree with you. I think they'll be you're right. And that's like what's interesting to you, you can't be possibly interested in like every faction of that. So yeah, exactly.
00;57;46;03 - 00;57;47;16
Derek
It's too big. There's too much stuff.
00;57;47;22 - 00;58;06;00
Pri
There's too much stuff. Fair enough. Regardless, it's cool to see like people that weave in to Aaron's earlier point, like people that we've supported, people that we've been excited about, collected from over the past five, you know, five years starting to get like this, like mainstream attention, like it's kind of shocking. So it's cool to at least it's good for them.
00;58;06;00 - 00;58;08;28
Pri
And, you know, it's interesting to see it's good.
00;58;08;29 - 00;58;32;25
Aaron
I think it's, a sign of things to come. And I think, I think what you were saying before, Derek, it's like there's should needs to be ambition, right? And art and like, it needs to be forward leaning like that is an important role for it to to serve and and like, and you know, the artists that are coming out of the internet, they're monetizing by selling, you know, non-fungible versions of their work.
00;58;32;28 - 00;58;54;16
Aaron
You know, two other internet natives like that is where the bleeding edge is. So I think the predominance of the little ecosystem that we care so much about is only going to grow over the, you know, upcoming years and decades, a bit like, like how we've seen that grow in finance. And I think a whole bunch of other areas, 20 decade thing.
00;58;54;16 - 00;58;57;19
Pri
I mean, it's going to take a while. It's only been five years.
00;58;57;21 - 00;58;58;09
Aaron
Right?
00;58;58;12 - 00;59;08;08
Pri
We're waiting longer than five years for digital. But I mean, like on chain stuff, it's really been like five, two years. So you guys, you guys are all going to node in January, right?
00;59;08;10 - 00;59;09;29
Derek
Yeah I'm excited I can't I can't.
00;59;09;29 - 00;59;12;06
Aaron
Wait I think it's exciting.
00;59;12;08 - 00;59;18;13
Pri
Yeah. That's going to be an interesting like very tech enabled audience I feel.
00;59;18;15 - 00;59;22;21
Derek
Yeah it's cool right in the lion's den too in Palo Alto you know.
00;59;22;23 - 00;59;45;03
Aaron
Well to me it's more than that. I actually, you know, I increasingly think that as we see, kind of like eastern cities, you know, decay, which I think is beginning to happen. It started with Detroit. I think it's now moving into like the northeast a bit more broadly. I just think, you know, the the power of San Francisco is increasing, whether we like it or not.
00;59;45;05 - 01;00;13;19
Aaron
And I think it's good to see them, continue to double down on cultural institutions. So it gives me like a lot of optimism, you know, you know, for that, for that region in that area, and the fact that they are leaning in, to newer cultural institutions, I think will benefit that ecosystem in lots of different ways because, you know, building a healthy city urban center is not just, you know, the roads, it's also the cultural institutions and all those bits, too.
01;00;13;19 - 01;00;31;03
Aaron
So I think that's why we saw, you know, like, you know, the last generations, you know, great urban centers like in the Midwest, like also build these, like, pretty, pretty, amazing cultural institutions to of which they're, you know, they're still still chugging along. It's, encouraging.
01;00;31;10 - 01;00;31;16
Pri
Yeah.
01;00;31;17 - 01;00;38;12
Aaron
Is. So I kind of think node's a little bit bigger than what what, what maybe advertised, just in part because of that.
01;00;38;14 - 01;00;38;25
Pri
Also like.
01;00;38;25 - 01;00;41;20
Derek
Yeah, that uses sidebar.
01;00;41;20 - 01;00;50;13
Pri
If you are in Palo Alto, we should all go together. But the, Computer History Museum is epic there. If you haven't been, I.
01;00;50;15 - 01;00;54;14
Aaron
Yeah. What did you see and what did you learn? I didn't get a chance to go there yet.
01;00;54;17 - 01;01;25;19
Pri
Well, we'll be writing up time here, but, like, it's it's awesome. It's it's actually incredible. But it starts 2000 years ago with the start of the calculator, and it shows, like, early calculators and so the first couple of rooms are just talking about computation at the most basic, basic early levels. And then it goes from there to just the history of, of of the calculator and then really didn't like kick off until World War one two with punch cards.
01;01;25;21 - 01;01;49;15
Pri
And how I didn't realize, like a lot of, like the punch cards that people would punch in and out of work were like, like driven from computers. And then that led to basically like IBM sort of creating that punch card system that that led into computers and an early computers. And then, yeah, it kind of just goes through like these different characters, like this guy Cray, which maybe you guys know about computer history more.
01;01;49;15 - 01;02;11;25
Pri
But like, I was like, well, this guy's very Steve Jobs before Steve Jobs create computers and and you got to see a couple of their machines, which were amazing. And it talked about like analog computers, supercomputers, mobile computers, devices. I like the whole thing was covered, basically since the beginning of the calculator. And it had a bunch of the hardware.
01;02;11;28 - 01;02;19;01
Pri
I feel like I need to spend more, more time there, but I thought it was awesome. Yeah, but if we're in Palo Alto, we should go.
01;02;19;04 - 01;02;22;18
Aaron
Let's do it. I love it. Well, welcome to Nerd society.
01;02;22;19 - 01;02;39;15
Pri
Oh, hello. That society. It's me, Derek, Chris and Aaron today talking art tech, culture and more. Just as a quick reminder, these thoughts and opinions are our own and not of our employer. And none of this is financial advice.
01;02;39;18 - 01;02;47;17
Aaron
Let's go, let's go.
01;02;47;20 - 01;02;48;03
Aaron
To.