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Descriptions of effective teaching often depict an idealized form of "perfect" instruction. Yet, pursuing perfection in teaching, which depends on children's behavior, is ultimately futile. To be effective, lessons and educators need to operate with about 75% efficiency. The remaining 25% can be impactful, but expecting it in every lesson, every day, is unrealistic. Perfection in teaching may be unattainable, but progress is not. Whether you are aiming for the 75% effectiveness mark or striving for continuous improvement, this podcast will guide you in that endeavor.
Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that
works.
My guest today is Joe Finch Joe Finch is in his second year at his current position as a fifth grade teacher in Kelsey v California.
Prior to his current position, he spent one year teaching fourth grade and PE in the state of Washington where he received his teaching credential.
In 2018, Joe and his family relocated to California where he transitioned to a role as a stay-at-home dad, which he did for five years, while also subbing part-time and earning a master's degree in curriculum and instruction.
Joe's gonna tell you about his solo.
Journey of professional development and he is gonna tell you a little bit about how we met and what our relationship, developed into.
I think you're gonna enjoy this one.
Hello Joe.
Welcome to Better Teaching Only Stuff that Works.
Thank you for being here after a full day of work.
Joe Finch: Oh yeah.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I've been looking forward to it, so I'm excited.
Gene Tavernetti: Alright, terrific.
Well, one of the things we mentioned in your introduction is that you did a master's in curriculum and instruction, and you know what we hear a lot these days on social media is what people learn and don't learn in our education programs.
I was just wondering what were the most important things you learned in your master's and are there any things you wish you had have learned that wasn't included?
Joe Finch: Yeah.
Yeah I'm all over social media these days, so I'm well aware of the conversations going on out there.
To be 100% honest and I had this conversation with some coworkers the other day.
I didn't learn a whole lot in my master's program.
It was disappointing after completing it because I went into it hoping to learn how to become a better teacher.
The one thing that stands out in my mind was a graduate level course all on differentiation, the entire course.
And looking back, I feel like that was a huge waste of time.
And I regret taking that course, but I got a moderate, no, that's a lie.
I got a tiny bump in pay.
For getting my master's.
And I think what I did take out of it was the whole last three months of my program were all focused on research.
'cause I had to write a thesis and do a bunch of research for it.
So the last three courses of my program were all about diving into the research and I'm really grateful for that because that kind of gave me a lens to view that specific, field of education, which I think is very much overlooked by the average teacher.
There's not very many teachers who will dive into any sort of research, partially 'cause maybe they don't know how, or it's locked behind a paywall and we don't have access to it.
Gene Tavernetti: I am going to pile on to how good you feel about having those courses, because I don't think those occur in most master's programs.
You know, I know that I didn't really encounter how to look at research, how to read research or anything until, till a doctorate level.
And so, feel good about that.
Feel good about coming out.
Yeah.
And I,
Joe Finch: I feel really great and, you know, going into my master's program, I. I decided, 'cause I had I had gotten my credential through a bachelor program.
So when I got my bachelor's, I got a bachelor's in education and it came with a credential.
And then I took a break from teaching to stay at home with my own two kids.
And I started subbing at the local middle school and it was immediately post COVID and I was walking into rooms and I just thought, what can I do to help these kids?
And naively now knowing what I know at the time, I thought, I'll go back to school, I'll get a master's, I will become a better teacher.
And so that's what I did.
And at the end of it, I just thought, okay, now I can say I have a master's.
But I can't say that I improved my instructional practice in any meaningful way.
Gene Tavernetti: But you did go on to a do it yourself.
Yes.
For to, for improving your practice and you are now one of those folks you could find on Twitter, who's right in the middle of the science of Learning stuff.
How'd you get, how'd you get interested in that or how'd you find out about it?
How'd that come about?
Joe Finch: You know, I think it started with when I took the break from teaching, I was staying at home.
I really wanted to, I had this idea of myself that I would be this cultured.
Adult.
So I got a subscription to The Atlantic and you know, I started following the news and all these other things.
And I came across, must have been 2018 an article in the Atlantic I think that was either written by Natalie Wexler or mentioned Natalie Wexler in her book, the Knowledge Gap.
And you know, I just thought, oh, I'll read that book.
I bought it, I read it.
That led me to Edie Hirsch.
I read a bunch of his books.
I really enjoyed them and in my head, you know, I had a year and a half of classroom experience at that point in my head.
All those things were just kind of clicking and I just was thinking to myself, yep, this is exactly what I experienced.
This is exactly what I'm seeing.
And so that was about 2018 and then life happened and I didn't really think anything about teaching again until 2021.
So about three or four years when I started subbing again.
And so then I was kind of on the periphery, but then again I decided, oh, I'll get my master's and that will make me a better teacher.
And it didn't, and then.
I got hired to teach fifth grade, and I remember thinking, I don't feel very prepared for this.
So I started looking at any resource I could.
I think I must have like Googled something or something.
And I came across Melissa and Lori Love literacy.
And I literally just scrolled through their entire podcast catalog until I saw a description that said fifth grade teacher and I hit play and it was Sean Morrissey.
And I listened to the episode probably four times through, and I just thought, that is who I want to be.
That's the teacher I want to be.
And at that point, I had no social media.
I was really, I don't know I won't, I don't wanna say anti Twitter, but you know, I wasn't for it, but he said, reach out to me on Twitter.
And so I went on and I created an account and I reached out to him and he just opened the floodgates, gave me all these recommendations and.
Some of them were really easy reads.
Others were incredibly dense.
And it took me about a year or so to get through it.
And so that's kind of my journey.
Gene Tavernetti: So, Sean, Gus kind of, got you started and I think one of the things that I want to highlight in what you said is that.
You know, we can think what we want about Twitter and all the ugly stuff that goes on, but there are a lot of nice people on there that are willing to help you.
And I want everybody to know that you know, all the listeners, don't be afraid to reach out to folks.
Yeah.
I mean, the worst thing that could happen is somebody will say no, but for the most part, it's not gonna be no.
Joe Finch: Yeah, I agree completely.
And I had that revelation too when I thought, you know, for me, in my head, you know, all these people that I've reached out to on Twitter you know, yourself
Zach, Rochelle, Sean Morrissey, Blake, Harvard Natalie Wexler these people are celebrities to me, you know, and I just think, you know, what business do I have?
You know, reaching out to them what, you know, what space what, right.
Do I have to occupy that same space?
But it was really just so positive, you know, reaching out to Sean and getting, you know, tons of recommendations.
Blake, Harvard sent me a bunch of presentations, you know, all these people just so willing to help one another, which was fantastic.
Gene Tavernetti: So you so you grabbed A lot of strategies, tools, techniques from everywhere, all these disparate sources.
And you started implementing them.
Joe Finch: Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I think going into last year I wanted to, but I didn't know enough.
I was still absorbing a lot of the things that I was learning.
And it wasn't until this summer that I had a chance to really kind of come up with a game plan.
'cause I knew I didn't want.
To start midyear.
I wanted it to be from day one, this is how I was gonna run my classroom.
And so, you know, I read just Tell Them by Zach Rochelle, I read all three versions of Teach Like a Champion.
I just read a ton of different books run the room and I thought, okay, I'm gonna make it work.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna have.
Hold call, I'm gonna do turn and talk.
I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna look for that golden silence.
I'm gonna do all these things.
But I still kind of felt like there was something missing in my room.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know, I want people to know that.
I am speaking right now to the Joe Finch who I've been trying to make famous for the term, the Frankenstein lesson, where you have patched all of these things
together, the what you just described, everything from teach like a champion to Blake, to Zach, to all of these things, and you kind of patch them all together.
And I imagine that.
You saw some success with these strategies and techniques?
Joe Finch: Yeah, I think I definitely did.
I think for me, the biggest thing was just getting the room ready for learning.
So priming the room for learning, you know, establishing those routines, establishing, you know.
When we are here, we're here to learn.
When we are in this room we are silent.
And these are the reasons why we're silent.
Because if we're not, we can't pay attention.
If we're not paying attention, we can't learn.
So I think that was a real positive of implementing them.
Just, yeah, like I said, just priming the kids because unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of school-wide structures that.
That support that, and it's kind of on the classroom teacher to create that environment in their class which is what it is.
You know, I could sit here and lament about how unfair that is, but that's education and we roll with what we have.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, and here we are.
So now we've had, we've talked about you reaching out to different folks and people, people providing support for you, which leads us to kind of how we met and you reached out to Zach I think.
Joe Finch: Yeah.
You know, I had reached out to Zach about some step lab stuff over the summer.
'cause he's the North America rep for step lab.
And through our conversations around that.
He had mentioned doing a book study on his book, and I was all for it.
So, so we organized that.
And then as the school year got underway I very boldly, I guess, asked him if he wouldn't mind viewing some of my lessons.
I had gone into the year of planning to film lessons anyways, just for my own practice.
And he said, oh yeah, just send 'em over.
But do you mind if I share them with, I can't remember the exact phrase he said in my head it sounded like mentor, but he said, well, with Jean Taber, and I'll be honest, I didn't know who you were at the time.
And I was just like, sure.
More people in this sphere with eyes on me who can give me, you know, practical advice, the better.
And then yeah, you ended up reaching out to me saying, Hey, how would you like to, you know, do this coaching cycle?
And I was all for it.
Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: Well,
Joe Finch: you boldly,
Gene Tavernetti: Reached out to Zach.
Zach boldly reached out to me, and then here we are.
We got hooked up and we started doing this.
And had you ever had any coaching before?
Joe Finch: Nothing at all really.
We have an instructional coach at our, in our district who rotates to both of our elementary schools.
And she spent a lot of time in my room last year.
But it was never a whole lot of, here are some strategies you can use to improve your classroom or your student learning outcomes, which is kind of what I was looking for.
It was she was more of just someone I could vent to and, you know, she could say, oh yeah.
Kids these days.
But, which was great, you know, and I enjoyed that and I appreciated that very much.
But I want, I wanted to be challenged.
I wanted to be pushed.
I wanted to take what I had learned and use it more applicably, I suppose, instead of just in theory.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, so we started working together and it was very, again, it's very different for me.
I'm getting a little bit more used to it now about doing this virtually, but it was a little bit easier to get going because you, you were already you know, recording your lessons.
And the first couple lessons that I saw.
That you sent were exactly what you described.
I mean, you know, it's like, here's a guy who has read Doug La Mob.
Here's a guy who knows all of these strategies.
And and you're right.
You know, it was time to take it to the next level.
And that next level that, that we talked about was incorporating a more structured lesson designed.
Joe Finch: Yeah, I agree.
And, you know, it's funny too 'cause when we first started working together, it must have been in like our first or second week corresponding where I made that Frankenstein comment.
And I remember it, it was in the middle of my wife and I had been watching the new Frankenstein movie on Netflix for like four or five nights in a row.
'cause we couldn't stay awake.
It's like two and a half hours long or whatever.
Yeah.
And it was just like a spur of the moment.
I think we were having a conversation where I was just thinking.
I have all these pieces, but I can't figure out a way to put them together effectively.
And so, yeah, I just think we were talking.
I said, yeah, it's a Frankenstein monster in there.
Gene Tavernetti: So how did, so we you sented videos.
One of the things that.
It's always a question of teachers when the first time that they actually work with a coach.
What were your feelings?
You know, like, were you apprehensive about anything?
Joe Finch: I don't feel like I was apprehensive.
I think I was excited because the way I view teaching, you know, it's my career.
It's my passion.
It's all for the kids.
It's that's the only thing I care about.
It's all for them.
And anything I can do to improve their learning outcomes is something I'm gonna try.
And I don't, I don't stand on a box and say, look at me.
I'm the best teacher.
I'm not flawed at all.
I can do everything.
I'll do it all on my own.
I know there are things that I'm weak in.
I know that there are some strengths that I have.
But it's nice to have that outside perspective to say, here's what you're doing, here's what you could be doing.
Here's what would really, you know, step it up.
And that's kind of what I was looking for.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, one of the things when I first started watching your videos and giving you a little bit of feedback and some suggestions were things that you said you wanted to work on.
And one of the things was to quicken the pace.
And, you know, just a few suggestions and you took 'em right away and you implemented them and you worked on them.
And every time I sent a vid, every time you sent me a video, it was a little bit, it was a little bit better.
And then but at the same time one of the things that I told you we needed to do before we could go any further was for you to read my book, teach Fast.
Joe Finch: Yep.
Gene Tavernetti: and so as you went through that as you went through that what were the things that stood out most for you?
If you can recall the things that you said, well, boy, I think I could do this and it would really help.
Joe Finch: I think for me, the first thing that stood out to me is just the whole chapter on the lesson objective.
Throughout the course of ed school, I must have written in my Bachelor's degree and in my master's degree, I must have written probably like 85 different lesson plans.
And every lesson plan has to have an objective.
But beyond that, I never really thought too much of it.
You know, some districts are, you need to have it posted, you need to have it in student friendly language.
You need to have this, you need to have that.
And I just thought, ah, I don't have enough.
Space on my walls.
I'm not, that's too cognitively demanding.
That's this, that's that.
I don't need that.
But then once I saw it in your book and I realized that it's not necessarily for the district, it's not for me, it's for them.
It's so that they know where we're going and what they're gonna be able to do.
So that, that stood out to me.
And now every time I teach that lesson, it's up there.
They read it through, they're getting, so I told 'em today, I said, I'm so proud of you.
You're doing such a great job leading, reading these really wordy lesson objectives.
Not wordy as in long, but like I use academic language, so they're using, you know, the appropriate terms.
It's just, yeah, that for me was huge.
And then also too, the other thing that stood out was the matching.
The modeling with exactly what they're going to be doing for their independent work.
And I think before we started working together, I was attempting to do that, but I wasn't doing it to the level I'm doing it now.
And I think that is a huge benefit for my lesson structure and for my students' learning outcomes.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know, what is so interesting?
You're talking about your students doing a choral reading of the of the lesson objective.
That's an example of you taking some of those things that you had done before we'd ever met and now incorporating them and, and I think
that's, so you were able to take all these procedures and routines and now embed them in a lesson, and kind of had a place to hang them.
Because I think that's one of the things that we talked about.
It was very evident.
You know, you did turn to talks and you know, we talked about you know, places to do that, places not to do that.
So really refined some of the things that you already brought.
And I think that's one of the things that I want to emphasize.
I think anybody, you know, working with a coach it's not just, oh, here are all these new things to do, but how do we incorporate what you're doing now and do it even more effectively?
So that's why I was nice to work with you.
You already had so many of these things that we could, you know, now put in this more structured lesson.
Joe Finch: Yeah, and I really appreciate that because I know this is also out in the Twitter verse that, you know, scripting your lessons and, you know, making them,
you know, fairly rigid takes away your individuality as an educator or as you know, oh, I, I can't be a classroom teacher if all I'm doing is reading from this script.
But in actuality, you know, it, it frees you up more to be yourself more because you are no longer, you know, trying to come up with four or five
examples off the top of your head, or you're not trying to sit there and think, okay, what is it exactly that they're gonna get from this example?
Or, what is it that I want them to get from this example?
So for me it, it was a lot more freeing because I did have that structure that I knew I could fall back on and then I could build off of as well.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, and what was we talking about scripting here?
Just to clarify for the listeners.
It wasn't that you were given a script, you wrote your own script.
Joe Finch: Yes.
Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: I mean, and that was the freeing part.
I didn't have to make this up each time I went through this example.
It was already there.
And I think that's a misperception.
You know, when we talk about scripting I, I think.
Every teacher scripts, and I think the teachers a teacher who's been teaching 10 years, 15 years, they have these scripts in their head.
They don't even know, you know, but they just come out every time they teach a lesson.
Here it is.
We've memorized it.
It's to automaticity and you say it's freeing.
It's freeing to be able to do that.
Joe Finch: Yeah.
And it was, it's, it was so nice to just have.
The fast framework to fall back on, you know, and that, you know, I could say, okay, I'm gonna start, you know, identifying my, what are they going to do?
What problems are they gonna show that they can do that?
And then building from there,
Gene Tavernetti: you know, there was a it was very different working with you than many teachers with whom I work.
And here was.
And here was the big difference.
The fact that you wanted coaching that wasn't that different.
There are many teachers who are open to being coached, but one of the things that I said early to you and I was more bold than I normally am, I said, Joe, I wanna work with you, but you have to do exactly what I tell you.
I dunno if you remember me saying that.
I
Joe Finch: remember distinctly, but like I said, I was so.
You know, I want so badly to improve and you know, I'm basically a new teacher.
I don't, you know, I, I've read a lot of books and I've tried my best, but I definitely know that there are areas where I can improve, and that's what this whole thing is about.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, and here's the thing about, you know, doing exactly what I suggested, because even in the, and we probably.
I probably viewed three or four full lessons that you sent and gave feedback on it.
And that was probably over the course of two or three weeks.
And the thing about that is my first admonition was, you need to do it exactly like this, but it wasn't too long where you were owning.
You were putting your own little flourishes and spins on things just because that's how you do things.
And I think that's the another important thing, not only for teachers, but for coaches, is like nobody wants a robot.
You know, nobody wants a robot.
You're there because of how you interact with kids and the it's kind of the artistry.
There's an artistry to it, you know, so you start out, it's like anything, it start out in acquisitions.
And you just get it to the point of fluency and then it becomes yours.
And that's how I felt, you know, in, in watching you progress, you know, in doing my lesson structure, that's what I saw you doing, you know, owning it, not doing it exactly the way I would do it, but nobody has to do it exactly the way I would do it.
Joe Finch: Well, and I think that's what I appreciated about working with you is that yes, you were a very much like you need to follow this structure.
Then once I kind of took on that structure and I was able to kind of make it my own.
And you were in support of that.
You weren't saying things like, oh, you know, don't do that there, don't do this, that, you know, you, it felt like to me you were celebrating what I was doing, which, which felt great, you know?
So,
Gene Tavernetti: yeah.
So.
We did the coaching cycles.
We did several coaching cycles.
You brought a lot of stuff into them, A lot of strategies and techniques that you still use are still using.
Correct?
Joe Finch: Yeah.
Pretty much everything that I've been doing since day one, I'm still doing you know, I still have a lot of the, a lot of what I did this year,
I took straight from step lab videos, you know, a lot of per TE's work just, you know, getting their attention, developing those routines.
So I still have those, but then I was able to layer in, you know, your framework, you know, in with it and it was pretty seamless, I want to say.
I,
Gene Tavernetti: I, it looked like it looked like it, you accomplished a lot.
So, so having gone through this experience, these coaching cycles, what advice would you have for teachers having opportunities to, to have a coach?
Joe Finch: I would say ask as many questions as you can.
You know, don't be afraid if.
You know, if you don't understand something the first time to to ask for a clarifying question don't be afraid to push yourself and be open to the idea of, you know, growing your own practice.
Gene Tavernetti: You know, there was one other thing that made you different in that, but first of all, I wanna say that's good advice and one of the things, you know, in growing your own practice is you are already.
Comfortable having the camera rolling and you know, that made it much easier to be able to work with you.
It was, having the camera rolling was not a new thing.
You were not intimidated by the camera.
It was just a tool and we were gonna share whatever you did.
Joe Finch: Yeah.
And like I said, going into the school year I wanted to film myself so I could watch it back and kinda.
Go over it and see what was successful, what was not successful.
Because I think I, going back to my master's work, I did have a class just on reflective practice and from what I can recall in that class, they never once mentioned record yourself.
It was a lot of, just after each lesson, jot down a couple notes at the end of the day, you know, get a reflective journal and write in that journal, which I think are valid practices.
But at the same time, we are, as teachers, managing so much in our head that there is no way we could remember exactly what went well in a lesson, what went, what could have been improved in a lesson.
Now we might have a moment that we recall.
I remember watching back some of the lessons that I shared with you and thinking, I have no memory of saying that, you know, I was asked a question.
I don't remember responding to that question.
It's just kind of automatic.
And I think to truly grow your practice, you need to be aware of what you are doing and what you're not doing.
And the only effective way to do that is through video, because it doesn't lie.
It'll tell you what you're doing, what you're not doing,
Gene Tavernetti: right?
So, you have a substack.
What is what is your substack You actually got a little bit of traction on a post recently.
Joe Finch: Yeah.
You know, that post was I wrote, but was shared via the, I wanna say the science of reading classroom, I think is what what the substack is called.
I've been dancing around the idea of doing my own substack for a while.
I'm still, I don't know I'm still in this and I had this conversation with Laura Sta a couple weeks ago.
I'm I still feel like an imposter.
You know, I mentioned earlier, I don't feel.
As comfortable as maybe I should in this air space that I'm occupying, but I'm hoping that I will get comfortable.
So I would very much like to have the substack the post that you're referring to was all about the student growth.
In reading that I completely attribute to Sean Morrissey's fantastic word mapping project.
And yeah, I grained a ton of traction and I was really grateful for it because.
The more connections I can make the better I can prepare myself.
And so, so that was great.
But like I said I wanna start writing my own.
It's just kind of intimidating.
I just needed to dive in and rip the bandaid off.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, well Congrat, congratulations on that.
So, before we go, do you have any questions for me, Joe?
Joe Finch: Yeah.
You know, gene I've been kicking this can around a little bit and.
If there was one thing you think every new teacher could do to improve their practice over, like, not necessarily overnight, but within the first couple months of teaching what do you think that would be?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, I think every teacher should be grounded.
In explicit instruction and more than what most folks get now I know.
This was a long time ago when I was doing a credential program, you would take a survey course on different methods of instruction.
So you weren't trained in how to do anything.
You didn't receive training, you just learned about something.
You learned how to describe it.
You learned how to identify it as opposed to other things, but I think explicit instruction is the foundation.
If you can do that well, then you're going to have a clear, some clear hints on how that you might need to scaffold something.
Because scaffolding, when you're scaffolding, when you're making some sort of adaption you have to adapt it from something.
You have to make you have to make a different than something.
And what that something should be is a well structured, explicit instruction lesson.
And I'll tell you, I've been doing this work since 2003 and it's just not out there.
Even in the science of learning folks, you know, they'll talk about you know, all of these strategies and then they'll say, oh, and we should do explicit instruction.
But there's, it's not talked about, it's not defined.
It is not, clarified.
I guess.
And so what happens?
It is it's say, oh, I do explicit instruction, but not really.
You're not really.
So if they could get grounded, a new teacher could get grounded in explicit instruction from the beginning.
I I think that would be a terrific place to start.
Like take a look at your journey if you had been grounded.
Either in your bachelor's or your master's in explicit instruction, the way we talk about in the fast framework then you would've had places to hang all of those lessons.
There would've been no Frankenstein.
It would've been, oh, I know.
I'm going to do this choral response right here.
I'm going to, I'm going to do this.
Echo reading right here, I'm gonna be, you know, I know exactly where to do all of these things.
And so that's my answer.
That's always, that's been my, always been my answer and it will continue to be my answer.
And that's where I'd start.
Joe Finch: Yeah, and it's really interesting that you say that because in so much of teacher prep programs.
Explicit direct instruction is just not mentioned.
You know, there I, you know, I took so many classes on how to teach reading, how to teach writing, how to teach math, in which I didn't learn how to teach any of those things.
But there's no mention of just tell them exactly what they need to know.
Tell them exactly what they need to do, show them exactly what they need to do.
You know, it's a lot of this.
Learning styles and let them figure it out because meaningful learning happens when you figure it out on your own, which so backwards.
So it's so backwards and I think we're hamstringing so many educators by, you know, taking that approach.
Gene Tavernetti: And we're making it tough.
We're making it tough on 'em.
Teaching is tough enough.
We don't need to make it any harder.
You know, so, so Joe, I appreciate the time.
I appreciated all the time that we had together to to do the coaching and I look forward to continuing to stay in touch.
Joe Finch: Yeah.
And likewise, I really enjoyed our time working together.
I look forward to talking to you.
I look forward to sending you lessons and hearing your feedback, and you were gracious with your time and I really appreciate it,
Gene Tavernetti: Joe.
We will talk soon.
You're welcome.
Joe Finch: All right.
Have a good one, gene.
Okay.
Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.
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You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.
Tesscg.
com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.