Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A growing community of educators, mentors, and lifelong learners who believe in the power of connection, shared stories, and showing up for one another - again and again
You're listening to the Bridge where
real educators share real stories of
career pivots professional growth in the
moments that make all the difference.
I'm your host, Cate Tolnai, and every
episode is a reminder that we're
not meant to figure this out alone.
So if you're navigating change
in your career or you just need
a little inspiration to keep
going, you are in the right place.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Welcome to the Bridge, Wezi.
Wezi (she/her): Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
I am really excited and honored to
be invited to be part of the bridge
and hopefully I can reciprocate the
joy that I receive from our community
and the educator community back
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): into this space.
So I appreciate the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): absolutely.
So, Wezi Thindwa, you have a fantastic
backstory, a global backstory that
maybe, people don't know all about you.
And so let's start with just you.
Where did you come from?
How did you get to where you're at,
where are you, all that good stuff.
Wezi (she/her): Yeah.
The older I get, the more I feel
like it's like, it's increasingly
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): because I am from
Malawi, born in Malawi, um, and my
family moved from there when I was
relatively young, when I was very young,
And we moved from Malawi to California
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Ah,
Wezi (she/her): about a year.
And then from California to England.
I was in England until I was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): um, going on
15 and moved to the States.
It was a mid-year, move
International group.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): not disruptive
in your, in your teenage years.
Wezi (she/her): I was in, year 10 in
England, so I was in ninth grade here.
So I came through ninth grade year
from English schools over to here.
So didn't spend much time in Malawi.
We were, I was in Malawi.
We lived in Malawi, um, until
I was three, well, I was three.
I was, you know.
Three years.
But, um, something that I really
appreciate came to appreciate and
cherish my parents for doing when we
were growing up in England, and just
trying, you know, my parents would
try to just break, do find their way.
my home
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): my mom was home and
as an immigrant family, you know,
tried to keep things together.
So they said, we are not big spenders.
We are not going to have, you
know, lots of gifts and parties.
It was just me and my two,
brother I've got two brothers,
I mean, right in the middle.
And so we didn't, you know, go on
those like one week or two week
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): holidays
really, or do anything like that.
But what they committed to was that
every other summer we were gonna spend
the whole summer back home in Malawi
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, wow.
Wezi (she/her): So, um.
I feel like without that, I
would feel very disconnected
from Malawi
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): But because of that,
you know, we were able to, it was
always home, like we're going back
home in next year, or whatever it was.
And then, after moving
to the States, I made
Cate Tolnai (she/her): mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): you know, kind
of solo trips and, um, but my
family was increasingly scattered
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): know,
as we were getting older, like somebody
was going over here to work, someone's
over in China, so was over in India.
We got family in the UK still.
Um, and so, uh, but always trying
to stay very connected with
them, which I do feel that way.
Um, and so, yeah, so that's why I
still feel, I would say global-ish
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): Like,
you know, I didn't have that many
formative years necessarily in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): in
England.
But, um.
It's still de definitely very
much like, uh, I feel very
much like I've got three homes
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Wezi (she/her): now been in the
States for all of my adulthood
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right, right.
Wezi (she/her): Um, and yeah, so
Virginia, we moved to Virginia.
I was in Virginia, graduated
Virginia High School
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow, wow.
Wezi (she/her): went to Virginia
State College, uh, worked in
Virginia public schools and then
moved to New York City last year.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): feeling
very Virginia as well
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that's, well,
and New York is such like an epicenter
of global identity too, and so it's,
it makes me wonder, like, like given
your role at Adobe and knowing, what I
know that, that Adobe is growing their
own community and to be more focused
on global, bringing everyone together.
Like, do you see that?
Like whether or not it was meant to be.
Do you see how all, like, do you make
connections between like how you grew
up and how you are living your life now
with, with family all over the world?
Like do you see that impacting
the way you support educators now?
Wezi (she/her): Yeah, I think it's always
been something that I've had an affinity
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): to is, um,
connecting in immigrant
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): in international
in um, just often growing
up feeling very othered
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): Like
being part of community
or forming community
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): has
always been something, Um.
that felt kind of natural for me to do.
is because like I actually had to work at
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): Um, just like survival
and making friends and connections
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
all of
Wezi (she/her): all of
that.
So Part of the Adobe for All campaign
of Adobe being such a global brand,
it feels, if I feel right at home
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): in that in that type
of environment, and educator, um,
I had the best practicum experience
anyone could have asked for.
I was very unsure about
going into teaching, but I
felt like very called to it
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, interesting.
Wezi (she/her): um, I was very close to
my, my grandmother on my father's side
and she was a teacher and um, and she
was very influential in my life, but.
and also my mom's side, her
father was, an educator
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): and we got several
other educators in the family it,
it felt, you know, like something
that was always kind of there.
But I didn't necessarily wanna deal.
so I didn't wanna become a lawyer
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): you
know, I wanna do other
things or I'll be an athlete.
Um, and then, but you know, it
was just some, there was just
something magnetic about teaching.
And when I got to college, I was
like every job that I've had, like
start the job or jobs that I've
taken on my own have been with kids.
You know,
I was doing, like, I was
working in a gym nursery.
I was babysitting
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): and, um, I was, you know,
working in camps and things like that.
So.
As a teenager, and I,
I really enjoyed that.
I really felt like I was
doing something impactful.
Then I got to college and I was like,
I don't wanna be a teacher though.
Like, I think I'm, I'm good with that.
Um, and so one of my advisors was
just like, just, you know, the,
there's like a probationary period
almost with the School of Education.
And so, you can take some classes
and then see if you wanna continue
and see if they even accept you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): kind of deal.
Um, so I did and I was all
over the map and I had a good
problem when I was in college.
And the reason why I call it a
good problem is because I got to
college realizing I was interested
in so many things, and that hadn't
been my experience in high school
Cate Tolnai (she/her): hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Um, in high school.
I felt like what is
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): what.
what.
You know, I don't know.
I don't know what my
path is in this world.
And I got to college and I was like,
oh, this, there are a lot of paths.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): um, I loved it.
I loved every class that I took in
the School of Education and I had the
most amazing coordinate cooperating
teacher during my practicum.
And I was in a school district, public
school district in Charlottesville.
And this was a teacher she'd
been teaching for 10 years and
she was previously a lawyer who
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh wow.
Wezi (she/her): became a teacher.
And, um, it, we had a very
international population.
that was a, a refugee camp nearby.
So, uh, the school was pulling, um,
from, uh, a lot of students from the
camp and, um, she was so thorough
and so supportive of my growth.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): she was direct
and she was a straight, you
know, she was a straight shooter.
Like she, she would say it,
it was gradual release for me.
And I remember my, I remember the
very first lesson where she said,
you've got this one on your own.
And I spent hours and hours
and hours planning for it.
And I was I was so nervous, even
though I'd been with these students
for months and or weeks at that time.
And I taught the lesson and it, it
felt a little better at the back
end than it did at the front end.
And when we debriefed, I remembered,
she asked me, the first question was,
you know, how do I think it went?
And then she said, you spent
a lot of time, the students
spend a lot of time cutting.
Those, the scissors.
and and we both looked at each other
and I was just like, oh my gosh.
Yes.
And she was just like,
you didn't plan for that.
And I was like, I didn't plan for that.
And um, And so she's, we're having
this conversation and she's saying
to me about like, even in focus
on the details of the minutia and
making sure students have this great
experience or what truly matters here,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): and also where are
the students and what's going to
detract from what really matters here?
And so I had this activity for them, and
I just didn't even factor in that I'm
having them cut out the shapes that they
were going to use to do the that consumed
consumed so much of the learning.
So that's, so we had
this conversation about.
You know, the the academic learning
time in a class when you are planning.
And so that's just an example
of how, um, honest and, but also
impactful our conversations were.
Um, and pick, you know, like this
is how much time you spent on that.
Was that proportionate to how much time
the students were actively thinking and
critically thinking about this activity?
Like who was doing the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Wezi (she/her): work here,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): And are
we assessing scissor cutting?
Is this what we're doing today?
Wezi (she/her): exactly, exactly.
Because a lot of energy and support
was given to scissor cutting
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Which
is a, which is a skill.
Wezi (she/her): it is
a skill, but it's with
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): they knew how to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): to cut
tiny those tiny shapes.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): But here, you
know what I wanna say about that?
Like, I used to have this poster up in
my classroom and it said, if you, if
you hear, if I tell you it's in your
ear, if you learn it, it's in your head.
And I feel like you
had to experience that.
Like, look at, it's still so real,
like it's such a core memory for you.
Like you're telling that story right now.
Wezi (she/her): core
Cate Tolnai (she/her): You learned that?
Wezi (she/her): a core memory.
It's such a core memory, and which is
why she was such a great teacher for me
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Because Um, and because
she was all about, did every student
get the optimal learning experience
that this was intended for them?
Every student, I don't care
what they're coming with, some
of them have zero English.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Some of them
Wezi (she/her): need additional
support with, you know, maybe it's,
um, intellectual difficulties.
Some of them might be coming with
fine, fine motor school issues.
So you've got a few kids that
didn't eat this how are they getting
Cate Tolnai (she/her): what they
Wezi (she/her): need
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): Getting what they
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): um.
Um, and I was seeing
where my faults were and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): reaching, but constantly
like targeting and addressing that
thing, and I had a partner doing it
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): and being eyes
other, you know, another set of
eyes I left, like, I'm so empowered.
And, um, I can't tell you how many
people said, don't teach third grade in
Virginia your first year of teaching.
Like they have all the state standards
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Wezi (she/her): It's a dump of
of
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like, why?
Wezi (she/her): sthosestandards of
learning tests at the end of the year,
they have four of them at the time, they
had four of them at the end of the year.
It was their first
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Got it.
Wezi (she/her): you know, going from
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): third grade is already a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): And then, um,
working with third graders, knowing
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I
Wezi (she/her): there's,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): the stakes.
Were so high.
Right.
Wezi (she/her): the stake, the such high
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): And so they're like,
as a first year teacher, it's really
overwhelming, you know, it can
lead to a lot of burnout for, and I
was just like, challenge accepted.
I had the best third
graders and, uh, and so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I, love it.
Wezi (she/her): I taught third
grade and I stuck with the, I
was just like, nobody's, nobody's
telling me not to teach third grade.
I, I love third grade.
My, my cooperating teacher too, she was
just like, this, we are doing third grade
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): know?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's awesome.
Do you still talk to
that cooperating teacher?
Do you have a relationship?
Wezi (she/her): you know, we, we did on
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
then I dropped
Wezi (she/her): then I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): know.
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): ago, and
then I lost, we lost touch.
Um, and her name is
Mary Plank, by the way.
So Mary Plank,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh
my god, I wanna find her.
Wezi (she/her): Mary
Plank in Charlottesville,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I love it.
Wezi (she/her): you are an
absolute star in my life
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): yeah, and the students
that we had that year was such a,
just a, such a wonderful class.
Like we had great rapport
with their parents as well
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): And, um, we had, we
had a couple students who were in
America for the first time that year.
Like that was their
first year in the states.
Quite actually, quite a few
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Um, not necessarily
from refugee, um, background, but
other spaces, other places too.
So yeah, I just, uh, but going back
to your question that I really veered
off of that, but just, uh, having
a community community has always
been something very important to me.
And also my parents worked reason
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm.
Wezi (she/her): Like the reason
why we moved from Malawi is my, my dad
was working in international development.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Got it.
Wezi (she/her): those are,
you know, dinner table talks
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): is how
are we making the world a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): Um, so that's
kind of been, yeah, that's kind of
Cate Tolnai (she/her): You know?
Wezi (she/her): in my bloodline almost.
It's like, it's part, it's
part of me to think in that way
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): and to, um, see people,
you know, beyond the current land
that we are sharing, but like, what,
what else has brought us here, um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): And so community
building was really a core focus
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): And
when I became a teacher, I I, was
sweating that first day of school because
I was just like, and not everything's
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): ready.
I need to, you know, all And those
pe my friends who know me know would
probably say like, you'd still be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm.
Wezi (she/her): today.
And yes, I have a little
scatterbrained, um, and I do a
little too much sometimes, it was
um, but it was important for me
that, you know, everybody feels
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): welcome to space.
I know that sounds very cliche,
but as a student that didn't often
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): like I,
most of my teachers didn't
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Wezi (she/her): correctly
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I literally, hmm.
Wezi (she/her): name is four
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Girl.
Right.
And, and I literally just wrote
a blog post about the importance
of saying names and saying them
correctly, like it's, essential.
Wezi (she/her): yep.
So,
yeah, that's just, it feels comfortable
for me and it's a mission that I get
behind
Cate Tolnai (she/her): mm.
Wezi (she/her): Adobe for
all, and, creating the future.
And, you know, I just, Especially
our team, like we want to inspire and
empower next generation of lifelong
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right,
Wezi (she/her): And I feel like that's
like the core of teaching is like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Wezi (she/her): and
empowering the next generation,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): It's
not hard to get behind that.
Wezi (she/her): it's not hard to get,
it's not like if you're not behind
that, like really what are you behind?
You know?
so, um, I, the mission of teaching
in general always felt like a very,
no brainer
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): you know, uh, I'm
doing something for the greater good,
therefore can, you know, I, I'll,
I'll take whatever comes with it.
Um, but also there's a dark side
to that mentality too, is that
sometimes it's like because you are
doing work that's also service work
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): that you
are also accepting less than
really what you should accept
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): Um, and, you know,
that can lead to that dissatisfaction.
And even beyond that, just the burnout,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): and, um, just kind of
feeling taken advantage of as a teacher
when you are giving and giving and giving
and you're not, you you know, like there's
not a whole lot that's being poured back
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Wezi (she/her): into you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): the intrinsic motivation
that you get from working with students
and seeing them grow and, being, a
partner in their life journey as well.
So it, it's definitely
a fine line to walk.
and and it's okay if it's,
if it's a job as well
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): Like it's, oh,
I, I might not feel called to
teaching, but I'm really good at
it and I work well with students
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): and, you know, it's
paying my bills and I get to everyday
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): something good every day.
Like, that's fine
Cate Tolnai (she/her): totally.
Wezi (she/her): Um, not, you know,
I, I think sometimes it's, it
can feel like if you're not doing
something that necessarily feels like
a calling, then what are you doing?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's a lot
of pressure for our people, right?
I,
Wezi (she/her): so it's it's
so, it's so much pressure.
And was actually just saying
this to a friend of mine today.
I was just like, the one thing
that we all share in the human
experience is that we change
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): people change and
therefore sometimes, you know, you
might find yourself like your passion
has extended or that's changed, or,
um.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm,
Wezi (she/her): You feel like your purpose
is evolving and it's just all part
Cate Tolnai (she/her): totally.
And there's some, like,
talk about pressure.
Like I, I think educators get, you
know, because so many of us feel
like it's a calling, then we end up
putting this pressure on ourselves.
We don't give ourselves
permission to change.
Like, like,
right.
And I mean, you, you've
lived it, I've lived it.
We've been fortunate enough and
strategic enough with decisions
we've made and things we've said
yes to that have opened up doors.
and you know that, I
don't think it's lucky.
Right.
I think it's, you know.
Like I say strategic, but I mean it
in like the, the softest way, you
know, because I didn't walk into
all those opportunities or like,
you know, connect with people on
Twitter or start presenting because
I was being quote unquote strategic.
Like, but, but in retrospect you
realize like, wow, that was all
kind of happening and it was, it
was all leading to something else.
yeah, and I, I really, there's
something you said there.
There's lots of things you said,
but I've been, I'm writing little
notes down so I can bring them up.
So the one thing I think is interesting
is when you say like, the teachers
give so much and we're not often,
they're not often poured back into
Wezi (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
that I thought about.
And I wonder what your take of on
this is, is like, leaders, like
educational leaders, which many
teachers turn, grow up to be.
Wezi (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I think,
I think that that not enough time
is, is spent really thinking about.
What should be poured back in, like, as
an example, like what fills Wezi is not
necessarily gonna fill Cate, you know,
Wezi (she/her): Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it's money,
but it's not always money, you know?
And that's not always
within edu leaders control.
And so like, have you ever come across
like, I don't know, is that something I'm
just, I, I don't know what my question
is, but I just kind of think about that.
Like, like what, what needs to
change or what needs to happen?
Do we need to be voicing?
What fills us?
Is that what teachers need to be
hearing or what, I don't know.
Wezi (she/her): Yeah, that's, I mean,
that's, that's a really great question and
something and a consideration to have too.
Um, I don't know what the answer is,
but I, can speak from experiences that
I've had with, I've, been fortunate to
be around a lot really amazing leaders.
I was working with staff in many
different schools, and so I've, I've
seen a lot and I've also seen where.
Leadership can really make some missteps
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): not intentional.
Wezi (she/her): On,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Exactly.
Wezi (she/her): not e Exactly.
And I think something that
can really help to boost
the morale and just ge general sense of
empowerment with staff is when whatever
it is that you're doing, are people
coming feeling like the work that
I'm doing is important and the work
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): that I'm doing is valued
because that type of sentiment, the type
of sentiment that makes you feel good
to wake up the next day and restart.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): That's the,
that's, the longevity sentiment.
That's the sentiment that makes
people want perform at their best.
and.
What factors into that and
what contributes into that
sentiment is visibility,
is voice, is
can I am, am I seen in what I'm doing?
And also is my growth appreciated?
Because there's a lot of times where
we feel so nervous of making mistakes
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): because
everything is high stakes, right?
You wait, you are working with
students like you're working with lives
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Wezi (she/her): Like this
is very important work.
And then you've got somebody who's
coming into your classroom maybe a
couple times a year with a checklist
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): and um, you know, it
can, it can really cause a lot of the
self-doubt or the sense that I need
to, like, I need to, actually need
to perform at my best when really,
like, you're doing your best everyday
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right, right.
Wezi (she/her): Um, but it's how my my
being
valued, um, understood, like,
am I understood as a teacher
and as a human being?
Am I respected as a contributor
in this greater vision
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): mission for what
we're doing in this space together?
You know, um, and I, I know that
sounds like kind of broad in general,
but it's amazing how long you can do
something over and over again and not
realize like you have lost the passion
and the desire to do that thing.
Like you can do it so, so robotically
or automatically, but feel very
empty inside while you're doing
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): it.
And , it's a very normal
experience to have.
You can also be energized, but
you are having to draw on a lot of
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): for that
energy outside of what you're
getting from the people
that you're working with and
the leadership around you.
And I think, um.
It's really important what something
that I've always valued as an
instructional coach and in the work
that I do now is like, I wanna, I
wanna see the work that's happening
Cate Tolnai (she/her): hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Um, how did you get here?
Like what is it that, how did
you bring yourself into this?
what are you seeing as the fruits of this?
Like what are the challenges that you're
seeing, um, experiencing and walking into
a classroom and, you know, seeing students
just excited to just learn something new.
That's how it should be, right?
Like, we should all feel very
excited to be learning something new.
Even as teachers
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): when you have
teachers who are coming professional
development, and this is actually,
this has happened, right?
Teachers will sign in and then leave
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, huh, huh.
Wezi (she/her): like,
let me just get my name.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Go to the
bathroom and never come back.
Wezi (she/her): let me let me just,
right, it's like it's a shared experience.
It's just if you, if you are going into
a space that says that, that has, that
holds the promise that you are here as a
means to improve work conditions or the
work that you're doing, or to get a better
understanding of the work that we are
asking you to do or to have improvement,
whatever it is, and you continually go
into those places and you leave feeling
worse than you did when you come in.
Like, that's a, that's a larger problem
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I totally,
Wezi (she/her): like, I wanna get back in
there right away and try this thing, or
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): I know, I
have clarity now
how the thing that has really been bugging
me, how it can stop bugging me about,
you know, what my instruction, or I know
exactly what, how to use this particular
tool now, um, which is holding me back
because if I don't know how to use
it, I'm not feeling confident to teach
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): my students
to use it.
So I do feel like professional
development is a really, really
important opportunity to encourage
and empower teachers that you should
come to professional development
and feel professionally developed
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay,
but what happens if they don't?
Is that their fault or is
that the presenter's fault?
Or is it, you know what I mean?
Like we both present,
Wezi (she/her): those are
the data points we get.
Yeah a lot.
And what are our feedback surveys saying
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I don't know.
I don't get to see them.
Wezi (she/her): I, I have, I have been
in, um, I have been in on teams where
the feedback survey, um, has been so
thorough because we were part of it
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): it,
we asked that same question.
Right.
Uh, what, so what if they don't get what
they're supposed to get, how will we know
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right,
Wezi (she/her): and what are we gonna do
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Wezi (she/her): about it?
And we
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yes.
Wezi (she/her): for that
And so.
Those conversations were really
important in building the kind of,
um, surveys and intake forms to,
uh, help us answer those questions.
But a lot of people have a hard time
with that because those are hard
questions that, you know, it's like very
specifically, tell me how you think I did
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): Did I help
facilitate your thinking
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Wezi (she/her): on a scale of zero to five
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): If it's a zero, like I
have work to do, I need to go somewhere,
get professional development about that.
Um, but I have also completed
surveys from workshops and
trainings that I've been in that
almost like a force feeding
you into saying that.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Like fake positivity.
Wezi (she/her): Yeah.
Um, that, that they don't
necessarily want feedback feedback
about the person who was, who
was leading the training or the
person who designed the training.
Um, they just like.
know,
um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): kind of
general, general feel good
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Safe, safe questions, right?
Wezi (she/her): safe, safe questions.
And sometimes underlying issue
there is that people know
that maybe I am supporting a
program that might, that is where I need
to show that this is, this program is
worth having and I wanna keep my job.
but ultimately, like, how, how do
you continue to be effective and
impactful if you're not people
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): from the people
who you're supposed to be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
With
Wezi (she/her): honest and honest
Cate Tolnai (she/her): honest
and, and how often do teachers
get honest feedback like that?
Right.
And we're constantly, like, going back
to what you said, we're constantly
pouring out, we're constantly giving,
and sometimes we get feedback from
students, like, or families, but
like oftentimes that feedback
is kind of layered, right?
Like there could be other factors
that are being measured that
you didn't necessarily ask for.
right?
Like, I mean, talk about othering, right?
That happens and you're like, oh,
I'm so sorry you had a bad day.
And that then resulted in an email.
That is my negative feedback.
So thank you for that.
Wezi (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
it, how do you, okay.
How do you, Wezi go, go from like, so
you're in the classroom and now you're
at Adobe, and I know we talked about
this before we started recording,
and people ask you this, like, how
did you, how do, how do I get there?
How do I get into ed tech?
Like, I really am curious because.
Part of what you, you were talking about
is like the, the everyday challenges
of being in the classroom and you
like beautifully reek of teaching.
Like, like you just, you are an
educator and, and you smell lovely.
but, but like how did you make
that choice and like, I'm curious
like, how did you get there?
Wezi (she/her): Yeah.
I always feel like my journey's
unconventional, but then it's
like, but everybody's journey
has unconventional aspects to it.
We are all
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Sure.
Wezi (she/her): unique.
But, um, there wasn't, if I
could go back, there's a lot of
things that I could, I would do
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): And there are other
things that I'm just kind of like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): lucky you, you know,
like, I'm so grateful was in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): in the right
time for this opportunity and,
I, I learned a couple of guiding
philosophies early in my career
that I feel like set me up to I.
almost like be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): right time
because I'm not somebody who
is naturally forthcoming.
Um, like always speak speak up in a
room like I was a relatively shy kid.
And so part of the issue that I did have
when I was learning to be a teacher was
the fact that I couldn't even speak in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): And so the fact
that I ended up spending the
majority of my education career
doing public speaking is so anyone
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): that anyone could
have seen from me, including myself
when I was a student in high school,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): I just, uh,
nk, I'm not exaggerating.
When I say this, like I could not
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): of people.
I was taking a lot of graduate, I was
taking a lot of, um, seminars and courses.
I was doing a lot of credits.
And once I got to the seminar
stages, like you have to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): lot and I couldn't
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow,
Wezi (she/her): I ran
out of two presentations.
I literally got up there, the words on
the page started swimming, and I just
Cate Tolnai (she/her): wow,
Wezi (she/her): stage left.
Um, after the last time that happened,
I had an intervention between the prof.
The professor came and sat with
me she took me to my, to The dean.
The professor and the dean were like,
let's get your dad on the phone.
They put my dad on the phone,
the three of them, intervention
Cate Tolnai (she/her): wow.
Wezi (she/her): Like, okay, what
what are we gonna do with this?
The fact that you cannot speak
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): front of people.
So I, was a, a physical reaction that I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): to being seen and heard.
and um, in a, for, in a formal place.
And so, um, I had, I had to really work.
I worked really hard on that.
Like I, and to this day when I'm
doing keynotes, like that is the
most uncomfortable experience for me.
And so I have my, I have my me means and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): through to be able to
get up there and do what I, what I do.
But I also am very grounded in
knowing that I can, I can a positive
impact when I do these things.
So I hold
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's what kind
of drives you and pushes through it.
Okay?
Wezi (she/her): 'cause it's
like, it's the fear of like.
Uh, what if, you know,
it it like there's an
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm,
Wezi (she/her): what if like, this
isn't even gonna land or, or whatnot.
And
Cate Tolnai (she/her): hmm,
Wezi (she/her): what if I'm not gonna be
Cate Tolnai (she/her): hmm.
Wezi (she/her): What if
I'm not gonna be good enough?
Um, and so I've had enough
rehearsals in public speaking to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's fascinating.
Wezi (she/her): some truths that
can be self-evident enough for me to
work through the mental anguish of
like, any, any thought that's coming
to mind that speaks to worthiness.
Like got a place for that.
And then whatever's driving
my nerves spatially, got,
you know, I've got some, some tips
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): for that,
but I, I have to work
very, very hard at it.
Um, and so in speaking to like my
journey in getting here, the where I,
where I was headed and my profile here
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): I had a lot of struggles.
Um, and even in the School of
Education, as much as I was loving
it, um, I got to that p to um,
the practicum, I was getting, you
know, the practice that I needed.
Um, but before that, it was like
the, the speaking was really,
really difficult for me before I
had the practical com experience.
um, and then the last thing
was you had to take an exam at
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): it
to get, you know, to,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): a teacher.
Wezi (she/her): to finalize
your c certifications.
And I was not a good test taker
and I, failed the university test
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
This story.
Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): I failed the test.
Mind you, I had received so
much validation up until that
point that I was going to
be a good teacher I failed
Cate Tolnai (she/her): my God.
Wezi (she/her): I loved the course
I was taking, I was internalizing
things and I failed the test.
And they said, you have a
second opportunity to take it.
I failed again
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): And
I was like, I'm not gonna be a teacher.
Like, that's it.
My chances are done.
And I was crushed
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): And then I get an
email, I get a phone call, and, um.
There was a review board because
one of the dean of students in the
School of Education bought my case
and was just like, there's no way
we can let this person not become a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): what are we gonna do?
Um, and so when I say like, time
and place, like this was a professor
who intimidated me, and I didn't
realize that she had even seen me
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): Like, you know,
she was she was like, oh, of.
Um, and I, I I only found out
because I was asking, I was
just like, wait, who did what?
Like why?
And then they said, and we spoke
to your, I had a history professor,
I was majoring in history and he
had asked me to be part of a, a,
board for curriculum globalization.
And I was like, why did he ask me?
I barely even speak in that class.
Um, and so like these were.
Teachers, professors who had that,
that thing where they were like,
every student, student has something
like what is, what is your thing?
What is like, and I didn't realize
it because I just was like in my own
bubble of nerves thinking like, I
cannot be seen and heard because I
don't know if I'm going to say anything
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
And they were seeing you the
whole time they were seeing you.
Wezi (she/her): me, seeing
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): and they thought
that I had something important to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): My gosh.
Wezi (she/her): so um, so yeah, because
of that advocacy, I became good teacher.
And,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): and so I became a teacher.
And then, and here's
the other thing, Cate.
Um, when I say I wasn't very
forthcoming, like that's, that's
what I would go back and change
if I could talk to younger Wezi.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm
Wezi (she/her): I'd be like,
you need to be comfortable in
your voice and know what's good
for you and speak to that and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): hmm.
Wezi (she/her): and, and to be, don't
be afraid to share your preferences and
your needs, um, because you can't just
like, wait for things to happen around
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Even
though they did, they did though.
Wezi (she/her): even though they
did, even though they did, even
though they did, because this is
why, this is why these did end up
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): I was so afraid
saying the wrong thing or
like just, I didn't want
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): Never
wanted the spotlight.
Um, it didn't, it scared me,
so I just said, you know what?
I'm gonna do things that
I'm very passionate about.
And I am going to try
to be the absolute best.
gonna compete with Wezi.
Like I wanna be the absolute best I could
be at this thing that I have committed to.
And that was teaching
these students.
I was just like, I don't care
what it takes, but every kid in
my class is gonna have a success
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): story
And I had a little note on my desk
of like a, quote about what is
in my control in this classroom
to remind me, like if you've got
an ego, like keep that in check.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): Um, if you're, if
you need to apologize to a student
'cause you made a mistake, you
apologize to the student 'cause you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Wezi (she/her): mistake
if you need to go call a parent
because you didn't handle situations.
So why you need to go,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): But
also, like, I held myself to a very
high standard and I held my students
to a very high standard and I, and
I wanted them to have the trust
Cate Tolnai (she/her): myself
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): myself,
if that made sense.
So I, was very, very passionate
about what I was doing.
I was excited.
Any opportunity to do PD or
to learn or to, to improve.
I was doing it.
I was always a student
when I was teaching.
I was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): And then, um,
um, I remember doing one year I did,
There
was a professional
development offering on the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): it was
like a five full days, over a
couple months, the presenter
announced that she was going to be
stepping down from being a trainer.
I was like, I didn't even
know that was a full-time job.
I didn't think anything of it.
And then one of my colleagues, two of my
colleagues who were with me in that, by
the way, who would ask me, they were just
like, Hey, we're gonna be doing this pd.
You wanna do it with us?
I was like, sure.
So I did it with them and um, and
I was also getting my, um, TESOL
certification at the same time
because I was just like, I've got
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): in my
classroom.
I don't wanna, I, you know, I,
I worked with English learners
before, but I wanna certified
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Amazing.
Wezi (she/her): that I can work
with English learners and so, and
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): learners.
So then they were just like, Hey, Wezi,
you should consider that position.
Since the trainers, was like, to
me it was just like words in the
cloud, in the sky, and, um, and then.
Little did I know, I was
asked to like, apply for this
position and I became a trainer.
And my, I was not a team lead,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): I was not
assigned to any committees to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Just like plucked
out of the classroom and said lead.
Wezi (she/her): like, it was like, it
was, but again, I, that that was one of
those situations where, you know, when
I talked to my principal about it, like
had seen me often, she was hands on.
Um, the assistant principals
were very hands-on.
They'd seen me about it.
and what I interviewed for it, and the
director was a new director and she
said, Hey, we're gonna be new together.
And then she was just like, by the
way, uh, you're the only person
who's interviewed for this position.
She was like, you're the only person
who's interviewed for this position.
So here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna repost it.
Um.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wait, that
doesn't mean you got it right away.
Wezi (she/her): the position.
No, no, no.
This was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Wezi (she/her): the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): okay.
Wezi (she/her): This is what they're
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Oh my God.
Wezi (she/her): so we, we are reposting
this interview, but this, uh, position.
But if our interview goes well with
you and you know, we, like, we
see, we go in and visit and what
do whatever they need to do.
They're just like, you got the job
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my God.
Wezi (she/her): And I was like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): What?
Wezi (she/her): what?
But anyway, I became an instructional
coach and I was just like, I gotta figure
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Wezi (she/her): gotta
figure
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Wezi (she/her): out.
Like, okay, now now I'm
doing this coaching thing.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): there's not really
a place to like figure it out, right?
Like it's on the job.
Wezi (she/her): now.
No, but I did have a really good
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): and she was somebody
who, like, she and I are still
very close friends to this day.
She went out on maternity
leave, decided to stay out for
a while, got a new partner.
She and I are still amazing
friends to this day.
Like three of us actually
just recently had lunch
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I love it.
Wezi (she/her): Um, this
was years and years ago.
And I just found, I found my pocket like
as an instructional coach and that was
something I was just like, okay, if
I'm gonna be an instructional coach
and I'm gonna be facilitating and I'm
gonna be standing up and delivering, I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): best I
could possibly be.
So I was like, again, it was like that.
like who are the people who I'm serving?
And, and, And, who do I need to be
for them and how can I work on that?
And so my journey up until this
point is constantly those stories.
It's
like after after that.
a I spent a lot of time working
with the Title one schools.
I was like, you know, I, I did some
school principalships and one of the
schools was just like, Hey, our, um,
technology coach is leaving.
We really would like you.
You know, we, we enjoy how you work with
our staff, and blah, blah, blah, blah.
blah, And at that time I was
actually studying, uh, I was
in grad school again for my EDS
and, um, this was gonna be, this
was my second time in grad school.
Um, and I was doing
my, working on my third
Cate Tolnai (she/her): My gosh,
Wezi (she/her): and I taught my
grad school, uh, uh, my dean, he was
actually overseeing technology, in
instructional tech in Fairfax County.
so
I was just like, I didn't
actually consider this for myself,
so what are you gonna think?
You know, and he really
encouraged me into it.
And so I was just like, oh, okay,
And now I'm, now I'm in high school.
Being a tech coach in high school.
Um, so, but the previous coaching
job was actually an instructional
facilitator position for the Office
of English learners for the entire
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): So
that's why I worked in a
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Got it.
Wezi (she/her): we were
working on with Title three
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): that
programming.
then I went into the instructional
of education, the Office of
Instructional Educational
Technology, amazing leadership there.
and um,
and then the principal at the school
where I was working, he was, I, like I
said, I've had lots of great leaders.
He was fantastic and he was super
passionate to just make sure that,
um, we meeting the needs of all these
students, over 70% of them came from
non-native English speaking homes
and we are serving this community.
And so we were doing a lot of,
culturally responsive work.
And there then there was this, I.
position that opened up to be a culturally
responsive instruction facilitator.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you got that?
Wezi (she/her): a call and I
was asked, like, because we were
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): um, there was
like a, there was a, an in-house,
um, like liaison position.
So naturally, like I just took that on
and then, and that, that's how I ended
up working with the administration
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it.
Wezi (she/her): And then they
were like, Hey, we've got a
formal position that's opened up.
you to have it.
Got
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow,
Wezi (she/her): I went to that,
um, to became a, an instructional
position again for the district,
but in the office of culturally
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that's amazing.
Wezi (she/her): was, we, we were working
under equity and then specialist for
that office or the, the, sorry, the
supervisor for that office got a new job.
The specialist became the supervisor
and she was just like, I want
you to apply for the specialist
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, stop that.
Wezi (she/her): But I, I did have
my, I, I already had my admin
credentials, like I've already been,
I'd already been doing a lot of school
leadership work up until that point.
Um, and ended up doing that.
And so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): it's like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): many,
Wezi (she/her): does
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
like over how many years?
Because it just,
Wezi (she/her): this is
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
okay, so this is 15 years.
Wezi (she/her): Yeah, a 15.
This is a year a DU journey
before coming to Adobe and,
um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): come
from that culturally responsive?
The Office of Cultural,
what did you call it?
The Office of Cultural Responsive
Wezi (she/her): culturally responsive
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Responsive Instructor.
Did you come from that to Adobe?
Wezi (she/her): came from Yes.
And the way that I came from that to
Adobe, it was a leap because I, um,
okay.
So when I became a tech
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): Again, I was
like, oh my God, I'm a tech coach.
I need to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Wezi (she/her): at this.
I can possibly be because I
haven't done this job before.
I mean, I've been doing coaching, I know
coaching and facilitation like that.
I can do my sleep these days.
But it's the, the ed tech
world has always been just like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): I'm
not nothing, not
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Okay.
Wezi (she/her): of what I'm doing.
So I was doing all the learning I could
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): own.
district PD that we had,
I was like sitting in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): front,
row, the first full day PD that
we had for all the district tech
coaches in, uh, in our division.
I sat in the front, they had a trainer
come in to speak to us about HyperDocs
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): Google integration and.
This trainer Oh, is also
talking about Adobe Spark.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): And so I'm sitting in
there and the trainer, as they're doing
their training, they're telling their
Cate Tolnai (she/her): huh.
Wezi (she/her): about how they
came to this work and how um,
they work with English learners.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): that's
been a, their focus and this is how
they've been reaching their students.
And I was so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): I was just like,
I need everything this person
said is what my school could
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): um, because
I want to support my school.
So I stayed after.
and then, um, the specialist in that
department said, Hey, I actually
want you to, to meet with this person
who came and did this training.
So we connected and that person's
name happened to be Tanya Berth,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my God.
Of course.
Wezi (she/her): of course.
And she and I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): um, our leadership
staff at the high school.
While I was a tech
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Got it.
Wezi (she/her): fast forward a couple
of years, and now I'm in central office
and she
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my gosh.
Wezi (she/her): and um, and you
know, we reconnect over it and
neither of us had forgotten that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): that we
had over the work because we were so in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): in that work.
And so,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that
does not happen with everyone.
Wezi (she/her): like, doesn't
happen with every, with everyone.
Like what I was seeing in her, she was
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm.
Wezi (she/her): shared passion of like,
how can we be better for our communities?
You know,
like how can we leverage these tools that
are now at our fingertips to do that?
Like, how can we people people to be
excited about the learning experiences?
so we like, we just.
Connected after that.
And so I came to work at Adobe.
I applied to work.
She was, she told me, Hey, you
should apply to work at Adobe.
So I did.
Every person I interviewed with
was just a, was like, I, I just
felt like we were having, you
know, like a dinner conversation
and I'd never met these people before.
It was easy.
It was like we were so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): about.
And so when folks ask me, um, you
know, like, how, what did you do
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Wezi (she/her): here?
How did
you, I was just like,
I, I say the same thing.
I'm just like, literally, I've always been
very passionate about the work that's been
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): about how I can do
the best I can possibly do to serve
the community directly in front of me.
And I, I've, I honestly had tunnel
vision every time while I've been doing
that because I'm just like, this the,
the, this, is my focus and.
I want to take full advantage of this
opportunity that I've been given.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Um, and I want
to, I want to serve, I do, I feel
like a defining quality of a good
leader is you make people around
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): So if people aren't
coming around me and feeling better
off for it, then like, I need
to go be doing something else.
So that's, been it.
It's just like I, just happened to
be doing things that were, I mean,
obviously there's a lot of intention in
it
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): when I say happened, I.
think My passion was seen.
The work that I was doing was seen,
not because I was blasting it from the
rooftops,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): but because I've
been a collaborator, you know, I've
always been working with teams and
with other people, and like, how
can I get this resource over here
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): and, what do I need to
learn so that I can bring it back and help
improve the conditions of this community?
And so like, you have to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): and you
have to network, and you
have to connect with people.
And so that's just kind of been it.
that's, that's that's been my mo Um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
though it didn't always,
Wezi (she/her): got me visibility
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
didn't always come easy.
I mean, that, that part of your
story is not to be forgotten.
Like your intentionality, your
work on that, like you say, tunnel
vision, but my god, laser tunnel
vision, I mean, It's so inspiring.
And I, I think about like, I mean, again,
going back to like what this is, even what
we're even trying to do with, with the
podcast and with these stories, it's like,
one, it's to make sure that teachers that
feel alone, remember they're not right.
Like, and I think so much of what you
shared is so, can it, it can help other
people feel that feel less alone or
like, yeah, like I, I had a hard time.
I have, I could never even imagine
like, standing up in front of people.
It's like, well, neither could Wezi and
like, look what happened when she did,
you know, like, look, and that there's,
you know, that, that there's a place for
us and there's a place for our passions.
But what rings true the most is that
you, you have been living your passion
unapologetically and bravely and that.
I can feel it through this
computer screen, and I've been
lucky enough to spend time with
you in real life and I feel it.
And so to know all that came to
this point is so, it's incredible.
And to
Wezi (she/her): Well, thank you Cate.
And I really do appreciate
that because, you know, I,
it's not always easy, to be doing work
and not feel like what, like to not know
Cate Tolnai (she/her): totally.
Wezi (she/her): or what's going to
be next, or to have that un uncertainty.
so me, I have, you know, just
I have failed a lot I haven't been
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): call it or name it
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): 'cause that to me
it's always been like, this is part
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): right?
Like this.
Failing that exit exam
was not, not a small fail.
Like that's a that's a
pretty significant fail.
But I remember also like
piloting in brand new approach to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Wezi (she/her): in high
school where I was working.
And it was a complete flop, like
launching that thing the first time.
And that was the first
time I'd experienced like
operational, trying to something
Cate Tolnai (she/her): huh.
Wezi (she/her): that just didn't land at
all that I had like creative freedom over.
and then I had to like go back to
the drawing boards and just like.
This isn't bringing folks to the table.
And it's too complicated, I
think, and like, what is going on here?
And I like, it was a very
uncomfortable conversation to sit
with my principal who trusted me.
And I was just like, yeah, you know, that,
remember that thing you trusted me with?
Like, that didn't go so well.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): So and then the question
of any great leader is just like, so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): do?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So what's next?
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): so so what's next?
So, so like, so how are
we gonna use that as an
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I love that.
Wezi (she/her): what good leadership
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): just like,
okay, it's all, it's another data point
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): to help you improve.
so that's, I think that's
also put me in a position I
I don't ever feel like I really need to.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right
Wezi (she/her): It's just 'cause I
know that if things don't go well,
I can name it and I can speak to it.
Nobody's gonna be harder on it
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
then you will be, yeah,
Wezi (she/her): Like, so yeah.
So it's just like, and I'm focusing on
the value of the work that I'm doing
rather than like the actual things, you
know?
If that
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
totally makes sense.
Wezi (she/her): yeah.
And I, I think that's just always
served me really well is um,
is to just have a value centered approach
because that's another centered,
that's like, it's a service
centered approach to the work
that I'm doing.
And that's why I am passionate about it.
And I once read an article, um,
just before I started my teaching
career, that resonated with me
and it was calling out, um.
A generational perception for
millennials at the time that was saying.
I think a lot of us have been conditioned
to think that if you're not passionate
about something, it's not for you.
And I, it can lead us to abandon work
that we are doing that can actually
become a really amazing gift and
something that we can be passionate about.
it's
like,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): it, the, op-ed um,
the op-ed was pretty much saying
like, sometimes you have to give
your passion and opportunity to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh yeah.
Wezi (she/her): can sometimes just
follow competencies that you're
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Like as a result of me
feeling more competent in this thing.
I've become more
Cate Tolnai (she/her): about it,
Wezi (she/her): about it.
And that's been my experience.
Like I wasn't.
Immediately passionate
about education technology.
Like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): like a thought of mine,
but as I realized like, hey, I have
com combined competencies that are
making this really meaningful for me.
Like my coaching background, my
facilitation background, my teaching
background, um, my expertise here,
my expertise here, the fact that I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): this,
and I, and I had to do this to like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): this And now I am
like the fact that the growth that
I'm seeing is making me increasingly
passionate about this field
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Wezi (she/her): and I'm gonna bring
that to whatever it is I'm doing.
So when I, you know, every work
that I was doing, I'm always
bringing that to the next thing.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Um, and so it's not
like I was just like, Hey, this is
something I'm, I'm passionate about
it and therefore I'm gonna do it
and I'm gonna stick my claim in it.
It's like sometimes, like, I
didn't feel very passionate
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): it's, it's, to me
it's like, you know, those, those,
the skills and the growth that
you get, as a result of committing
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): that Yes.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): It's this
idea like you can't rush passion.
And I think that's a
challenging thought for me.
Like I That's what I'm hearing you say.
And like, I think you're right.
I think the assumption is if you're
passionate about it, it, it's also like
the assumption that passion is positive.
Maybe passion isn't
always positive, right?
Like maybe passion, a
passion is challenging maybe.
And it's through those, all those
ups and downs, the jungle gym of
your passion that you end up feeling
like deepening your commitment to it.
I hadn't thought about that
before, but I think you're, I
think you're really right and like.
Like failing and persevering through
that failure and doubling down on it and
getting it right makes me more committed,
hence makes me more passionate about it.
That's
Wezi (she/her): Yes.
Because
it's,
like,
you
know, it's almost like it's that
dopamine after you're curious about
something and you've experienced
a challenge for it, and then
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm.
Wezi (she/her): it.
Um, and that just gives you like, you
know, this sense of I can, I can do what
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
I can do hard things.
Wezi (she/her): Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): is
actually my family motto.
Tolnai's do hard things,
Wezi (she/her): Oh, yeah.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, it's, and one, so one of the, um.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Outcomes of the Interve.
I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): that I got in college
for public speaking was, I remember, um,
the conversation turning to, you do
realize that everybody gets nervous.
Like we all get nervous.
And my dad was just like, yeah.
It's just like, how are you going
to choose to deal with those nerves
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): and how do
you want other people to see
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): And so I was just
like, I didn't realize I had any
Cate Tolnai (she/her): God.
That's empowering though.
Wezi (she/her): yeah.
So, and then he told me this
story about seeing a world leader
once, just like by happenstance.
And he, at the time he was working at the
World Bank, so they had this forum and
runs into this world leader who was coming
outta the bathroom and they just said.
I just always throw up
before I have to speak.
it took
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): him so off guard.
'cause he is just like,
this person speaks all the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Wezi (she/her): time.
And they're like, it's that like this
is how we see them and they get that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): Um, and
so, and he told me that.
And so I was just like, okay, have
control over the way that I can show
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): nerves.
So I started to kind of see them as
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): they telling me?
They're telling me that I think what
I'm doing is really, really important.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh gosh.
Wezi (she/her): And they're
also telling me that I am, I am
human and that I make mistakes
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): And that they're also
telling me that I feel I'm a feeler
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Wezi (she/her): But that's
also a connecting human
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Wezi (she/her): Like that's how, that's
how we connect to people when we speak.
and so.
I was, so now, now I'm gonna give you, I'm
gonna share with you what my, my public
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I
wanna hear it right now.
Wezi (she/her): I call them tips,
but like, these are like really,
like my, my public speaking
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Wezi (she/her): savers for Wezi.
This is what I do.
Will, if I'm going on stage and
I am speaking to an audience, I
will always have pockets because
if I, my hands start to shake.
I want to be able to put them in
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): the pockets,
and I want to look relaxed,
even though I am like the duck
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm mm-hmm.
Wezi (she/her): the,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Feet
going crazy underwater.
Wezi (she/her): actually, it actually
does, like when you put, if you put
your hands in your pocket and you just
walk around, it actually does make
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): bit more relaxed.
So I always wear trousers
with pockets in them.
I always wear dark clothes
because I'm probably gonna sweat
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep,
Wezi (she/her): extra nervous.
So I don't have to worry about like
anybody seeing me sweat or like my
clothes looking off, because I'll
be like, eh, that's one less thing
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yep,
Wezi (she/her): for me to think
about and to be self-conscious about.
'cause I, the, the thing that
I don't want to be up there is
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): So I'm removing the things
that are gonna make me self-conscious.
It's like people seeing my
hands, like people see me sweat.
What?
And then there's the, um, the
actual content, what it is that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Wezi (she/her): delivering.
I have to feel connected to it.
So I cannot, and I realized like
when that last time that I ran out,
I cannot read off of the, even if
I wrote this, which I always do.
It's like I've written this, my
presentation, I get in my own head
and I cannot read the words in this.
So I in, I don't memorize, I internalize
because I'm terrible at memorizing things.
My recall isn't that great.
So I have these, like the devices
for myself where I'm just like, I
want to deliver the message.
What is the message, what I'm saying,
and what is going to cue me into the
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): of that
message as I deliver it.
So I'll just have like, just like
little words or, or bullet points or
like I'll come up with a connection
between something that will
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Do you put
that on the slide or where do you
Wezi (she/her): I put no, I put it on
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Uhhuh?
Wezi (she/her): note
card for my, for myself.
Um, I'll have it a note card up, but I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): sure.
It's like making it is enough.
Wezi (she/her): I'm like, because, and
then I do a lot of visualizing to prepare.
To prepare.
So I'll visualize delivering this message.
And then I also accept the
fact that I'm not going to say
everything that I want to say.
I'm going to miss points that
I had planned on saying, like,
I just accept that off the bat.
Like, okay, but if you miss a point,
which is the point that you really don't
wanna miss, you know, kind of thing.
So I had this conversation with myself
ahead of time, and even with all
of that, I am still a nervous wreck
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): before
these like big keynotes.
Like my colleague will tell you, he
came up to me and he just had to be
like, wait, I'm looking at my notes.
And he's just like, if you don't
have it now, you Don't have it.
Like, relax, chill out.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
Don't tell me to relax.
Wezi (she/her): um, and it's like,
and it, but at that point, like, I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay?
Wezi (she/her): really
do need to like chill.
Um, so like you, like I'm Okay?
with somebody telling me to relax
before I have to go on stage
because I, I do need to relax
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Take a breath.
Wezi (she/her): really do need it.
I need to Take a breath.
But I say that to say that this
is something that's always going
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): me.
And so I also, I understand my
limitations and I work with my
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Wezi (she/her): and I have
also improved through that.
Like, uh, as a result of that, because
like what's holding me back is me
just being rooted in the idea that
this is all about me and it's not
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah, yeah,
Wezi (she/her): So I have to like, you
know, take that part out, out of it.
It's just like, yeah,
I might be up here telling,
sharing my story, but why?
Like, why did I, what, why were you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Wezi (she/her): that?
It's because the people in
front of you are seeking
something, um, that's beyond you.
And so you are just like a vessel
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Ooh,
that's a very powerful image.
Ooh, that's very helpful.
My sister once told me,
I really appreciate this,
even though it sounds harsh.
She says, people don't think about
you half as much as you think they do.
And I'm like, that is
actually so helpful for me.
Wezi (she/her): Yeah.
Especially when we're just like, oh my
do they
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Wezi (she/her): hate me?
Um,
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
They hate their emails.
They hate their emails.
Like they don't hate you.
Wezi (she/her): They hate the emails.
So this is actually something that I
appreciate about, like recall or things
or when I am in an intense situation,
if I say or do something embarrassing,
I'm probably not going to remember
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Wezi (she/her): it after a couple weeks.
So
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Silver lining.
Wezi (she/her): my body's
gonna remember the nerves, but
I'm just say, eh, it's okay.
I won't be embarrassed about
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh God.
Wezi, you are the best.
I can't even, I feel so lucky to have
had like an hour to hang out with
you and hear, like, just get to know
you and like, thanks for sharing.
Like you, you like laid it out, girl.
You laid it out.
Wezi (she/her): Well, you
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh.
Wezi (she/her): and I, don't get to do
this often, obviously, so please excuse
Cate Tolnai (she/her): No.
No,
Wezi (she/her): but I, I thank you
for having me and for allowing me to
share some of my story and hopefully
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it,
Wezi (she/her): I don't know, it,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I think so.
I mean, it's, it's humanizing and
I think the, the thing about your
job Wezi, and I got to see you in
action even just yesterday, is that
you, you're, you might hate the
spotlight, but you're in it a lot.
And, you do it so gracefully and,
and so to hear, like even just
you sharing your little tips, I'm
like, it's just so humanizing.
And it's a good reminder that like,
at the end of the day, whether you're
in the classroom or at a conference
or on a call with 300 people watching
you, like you are still Wezi.
The teacher who says challenge accepted,
and like, you're gonna show up and
you're going to slay, and the only
person that's going to judge you is
probably you, and you're wonderful.
So I thank you so much, my friend.
Wezi (she/her): Thank you Cate, and
I look forward to just listening to
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh yeah,
the other
Wezi (she/her): sessions that you've had.
There's so much inspiration out there
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Wezi (she/her): kind of look up and
find it and, um, I just appreciate
you hosting these platforms
Cate Tolnai (she/her): totally.
Wezi (she/her): to do that
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
All right, well we'll put everything
in the show notes, my friend.
Thank you.
Thank you.