Why This Linux Distro Is Growing Faster Than Ever (Zorin OS Interview)

Artyom Zorin, co-founder and lead developer of Zorin OS, explains why this Linux distribution is seeing explosive growth, its user-friendly approach, business models & incentives, privacy, open source, and more.

🔗 SOURCES & LINKS
• Zorin OS: https://zorin.com
• Zorin OS Pro: https://zorin.com/os/pro/
• Zorin OS Education: https://zorin.com/os/education/

⏱️ TIMESTAMPS
00:00:00 INTRO
00:02:55 ZORIN OS VS. UBUNTU
00:04:14 PACKAGE COMPATIBILITY
00:07:01 OPEN SOURCE? FREE?
00:11:46 BUSINESS MODELS + INCENTIVES
00:14:48 TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC
00:16:00 PRIVACY BY DEFAULT
00:17:51 SECURITY MODEL
00:19:48 WHY UBUNTU?
00:21:16 DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS
00:25:03 RELEASE SCHEDULE
00:26:26 COMPATABILITY LAYERS
00:28:52 ARM SUPPORT
00:32:32 PROFESSIONAL +CREATIVE SOFTWARE
00:36:43 DEFAULT APP CHOICES
00:39:19 ZORIN GRID
00:42:22 ZORIN EDUCATION
00:43:35 DEVICES + INSTALLATION
00:47:50 ZORIN OS LIMITATIONS
00:50:26 DUAL BOOT
00:51:30 THE ZORIN TEAM
00:52:58 LOCATION
00:53:12 OPEN SOURCE + GIVING BACK
00:56:24 DOWNLOADS
00:59:17 WINDOWS 10
01:01:09 AI
01:07:23 THE FUTURE OF ZORIN OS
01:09:49 MOBILE DEVICES?
01:10:35 HOW TO FOLLOW
01:11:18 OUTRO

🎥 VIDEO
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Creators and Guests

Host

Henry Fisher

Runner, artist, musician and digital rights activist. Owner of Techlore

Guest

Artyom Zorin

Zorin OS

Editor

Tori

Techlore

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We see that there's a large disconnect between what users want and what the big tech companies

want to provide. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Techlore Talks. Today, I have Artyom from

Zorin OS, who's going to be talking about their Linux distribution and all of the privacy and

security implications, what it looks like to switch to Linux from something like Windows

or macOS, and kind of their approach and the users they're targeting to try to get Linux in

as many hands as possible. And now let's get into the conversation. Okay, today I have Artyom from

Zorin. You guys might actually know them as the Linux distro. I know they're quite popular in

our audience. So do you mind introducing yourself and what you work on? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm

Artyom Zorin. I'm co-founder and lead developer of Zorin OS. So the main goal behind Zorin OS is to

provide a really simple and user-friendly alternative to Windows and Mac using Linux as

the backend. I guess the best way to give a bit of a background on Zorin OS is just to go back to

the very beginning of our story, which was back in 2008, my brother and I, we first tried out

Ubuntu Linux on a computer and we were really enamored by, you know, all of its advantages,

all of its features, the fact that it was so much faster than Windows, that it was more secure,

privacy respecting, customizable, powerful in general. And we kind of thought to ourselves,

why isn't everyone using a system like this if it's so much better than Windows and Mac

in our experience? But the first hurdle we encountered was when we showed our dad

a copy of Ubuntu and he immediately made it clear why that wasn't the case,

simply just because Linux was not user friendly enough.

So even something as simple as muscle memory, like the start menu

and the taskbar not being in the right place was already in big enough hurdle

for, you know, the general public normal computer users

from switching over to Linux. So we kind of thought to ourselves,

what if we could bridge this gap and make a system that's

has the power of Linux and the advantages that it has,

but also making it really simple and familiar.

So the first version of Zorin OS we released back in 2009

and it had a very Windows like desktop experience

so that you didn't have to learn anything new just to start using your computer

with a more powerful system.

And so, you know, 16, 17 years on,

we've been continuously upgrading, improving Zorin OS and making it

as user-friendly as possible while still retaining all of the power and advantages of Linux.

Got it. And so you were all based on Ubuntu, correct?

Yeah.

And so what are kind of the key differences?

You know, if somebody is currently on Windows or macOS, they're checking out Linux.

And Ubuntu is my first distro as well.

And so I'm very familiar with kind of the pathway and that initial experience that it

sounds like you guys had where it's like, why would I not use anything other than this?

when I first started using it.

But what kind of separates you from Ubuntu?

Like what can kind of a regular user

expect the differences to be there?

Yeah, in the case of Zorin OS,

we focus entirely on making that switch over

from Windows or macOS as simple as possible.

And we make the user interface

just way more familiar than an Ubuntu system.

Not just from a desktop layout standpoint,

because it resembles like a Windows environment,

but also like even just tiny little tweaks

throughout the system.

We also have a feature called Zorin Appearance

where you could change the entire desktop layout

to match whatever operating system you're more familiar with.

So if you're more familiar with macOS, for example,

you could click one button

and the entire desktop rearranges to look like macOS.

So you don't have to learn anything new to get started.

Or if you want to customize your system more, it gives more easy options for that.

Got it.

And so since you're based on Ubuntu, I assume that in terms of the package manager, it's

going to be APT.

And then you're also going to have Debian packages.

And then I think I read on your website that you out of the box also support Snap and Flatpaks.

So you support all kind of the critical ones there.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So our philosophy behind that decision is just to try to support as many package sources as possible so that users will have the widest array of apps available to them out of the box from the software store.

That's one of those features that isn't quite common in other Linux distributions.

Generally, they tend to go down the route of maybe one or two package formats.

In our case, we try to support as many as possible just to make sure that, you know, if you're a Windows user or a macOS user coming over to Zorin OS and you want to get the apps that you are familiar with, the apps that you like to use every day, you know, there's a higher likelihood of just being able to search it up in the software store, click install and just you're away to go.

So that was the decision behind supporting all these package formats.

What do you all default to? So, you know, I stumbled on this recently because I installed Asahi on a MacBook Pro that I have access to. And in the package manager, you know, let's say Firefox, you search up Firefox and the GUI, and then it's going to come down with, you know, you can install the Flatpak version, you can install the other variations. So what do you guys default to if a user isn't really familiar with different package managers? What is the default when you have all the options available for a piece of software?

Generally, it defaults to whichever package source has the newest version of that app.

Because say, for example, like the apt package repositories that are available in Ubuntu,

they're quite well tested to work on the base system, but it may not always update to the

latest version of that app. So if there's a newer version available in Flatpak, then by default,

it might show up the Flatpak version. And when you click install, it'll install from that source.

That's just to try to, you know, improve the user experience so that over time the app gets better and you don't really have to think about it.

So if a user installs it and let's say it defaults to Flatpak because the Flatpak is the latest, will it only receive Flatpak updates from there on out or will it always continually just update?

I assume it's not going to be changing the source.

No, no, no. It'll continue to update from the Flatpak source or the Snap or the app source.

Got it. Okay, yeah, that'd be kind of crazy engineering if you found a way to easily switch those around on each update. And I guess it's always a good clarifying question. You guys are also, I mean, it's kind of extends also to your, to maybe your business model as well. You guys are open source, but you're not necessarily free. Is this an accurate way of putting it?

So we have the free edition of Zorin OS, like the core edition, which we've always had and we always will provide the free edition.

And that's comparable to, you know, the apps and feature set that are included in other Linux distributions that only offer a free version.

But we also have the Zorin OS Pro Edition as an offering, predominantly to support the continuous development of Zorin OS and to make sure that our aims are aligned with the users so that we are funded by our community directly.

And we don't have any other sort of ulterior motives like you might find in the app stores on your phone where apps might be ad supported or data and telemetry get gathered and sold to advertisers.

We don't want to go down that route.

And the most sustainable form of keeping the Soreness project alive is just directly funding it from the users.

But in return, also, the Pro Edition offers a bunch of additional features, like a whole suite of curated apps for creative professionals and power users, productivity apps, creative apps.

Also, additional features such as more desktop layouts that you could switch between in Zorin appearance so that it's a lot easier for people to make the migration over.

But also we provide technical support as a service to people who have purchased the Pro Edition.

Because our goal has always been to make the Linux-based system that's the most easy to switch over to.

And sometimes new users might encounter certain hurdles.

Maybe it's an app that they aren't able to get up and running easily.

Or maybe a hardware feature that isn't automatically enabled on their computer.

And that technical support service basically allows these customers to email us directly saying, you know, I might have a problem with this.

Can you help me with it? And we will sort these details out and provide a solution directly over email.

So it's just about making that transition from Windows and macOS to Linux a lot more seamless.

Just having that extra person by your side makes a big difference from what we hear.

So you don't have to rely purely on your own researchers hunting through different forums to fix any potential solutions that you might have when making the switch.

Yeah, and I assume, you know, maybe someone might be wondering, well, the Pro version is not open source then.

So how does that work?

So the software that's included in the Pro edition is open source.

So you can download the source code of all of the apps and packages, even from within the system.

It's more of a factor of making it convenient to have all of the apps you would need out of the box,

but also to have the support service by your side when you need it,

which goes well beyond the factors of the source code and the software.

So it's all about providing more convenience while also allowing people to contribute back to the project

and get something in return as well.

Yeah, I think it's something much needed because I do think there's a disconnect.

A lot of people who are drawn to Linux, and I think this might be the stories that we both described.

You know, we tried out Ubuntu for the first time and it's like, wow, this is great.

You kind of just get it right away.

But that's not necessarily what a non-technical person is going to experience the first time.

They are going to be confused on which disk to install the operating system on.

They're going to be confused on some pretty basic things that to a technical person.

I'm not even that technical, like I'm not an engineer.

I just have maybe a little bit more technical capabilities than a regular person on the street.

That's a real thing, though.

People don't want to be hunting down forums all day.

And right now, the best customer support in the Linux community is just whatever the top three largest Linux distros are that have the largest communities that have really good documentation and good forums.

So I think of like the Ubuntu forum, Fedora has a lot of good resources, and Arch, of course, has their wiki,

which everyone loves. But that's kind of it. It's not really customer support, though. And it's not

what a user really typically expects. And so it's cool that you guys offer that, because I think

there's a lot of people in my life who would actually have to utilize that support. So just,

I guess just sending praise there for that. I did want to get more of your thoughts on the,

you know, lack of ulterior motives, because I feel like maybe the community can be a bit picky at

times, because we like the support and we like things that Ubuntu is doing, but we don't like

canonical. And same thing goes with Red Hat, etc. So how does your business model change kind of

where your incentives lie compared to maybe some of the other organizations that are behind other

Linux distros? And how do you see the motivations as different? Yeah, no, absolutely. So if you want

to understand how a company or a team prioritizes the decisions, there's a phrase I always like to

use came from, I believe, Charlie Munger, which is show me the incentives and I'll show you the

outcome. And if you look at how those other companies are funded and where they get their

revenue from, oftentimes it's not from desktop users. It's actually from maybe server or IoT

solutions where they work with businesses and organizations using products that are slightly

different from what you might use on the desktop at home. And so they derive a lot of the revenue

from maybe support contracts for those specific use cases and not necessarily treating the desktop

as a main driver of revenue that requires giving a lot of attention so that their business survives

and thrives. So even though, you know, there might be some commotion online about, you know,

why did they make this decision when the other decision that they could have made would have

better for the desktop, you can kind of understand it from that lens where they have their priorities

set on these other customers and these other use cases, which doesn't really align with what you're

doing on the desktop as a user. In our case, we wanted to make sure that we're providing a desktop

experience that's second to none, that's really simple and user friendly, but also actually listening

to our users and their feedback to figure out how to make the desktop even better. And we're entirely

focused on the desktop. That's our only, you know, product line, you could say. And so, you know,

if we ever think about making a decision on, you know, how to develop Soren West, maybe take it in

one direction versus another, we always have to think about like, what do our users want out of

an operating system. And we always have to make sure that their interests and their needs are

our North Star. It's always been our goal to try to make a system that's as simple and user-friendly

for desktop users. And if you have them by your side, then they will always tell you which way is

best. So that's really the difference between ourselves and the other larger Linux-based

companies that generate revenue, simply that we are focused on the line on the desktop.

Got it. And then I definitely want to dive a little bit more into the technical side of things.

But the last question I have, who is overall your target demographic? Is it new people to Linux? Is

it people who just want Linux to work? What do you generally describe as the main avatar?

Yeah, I mean, from the very first day of us starting the Zorin OS project, we've always focused on making a system that's as simple as possible to use for new users.

So people who are using Windows or macOS right now, sort of the general public.

But we have noticed that even veterans of Linux really like Zorin OS because they can just set it and forget it.

And it's like super simple.

They don't have to fiddle around with lots of settings.

You know, in some regards, they say that we have the most sane defaults

and that they could just use their desktop computer as much as they want

without having to worry about, you know, tinkering.

It's just ready to go from day one.

So we have quite a large and varied user base.

But because our number one goal is to get new users,

it is new users coming from predominantly Windows, but also macOS.

Got it. Very nice. And so diving more into, I guess we can start with just privacy and security.

So what's kind of your approach to privacy by default? So many Linux distros,

I'd say a good amount of them don't really include very much, if any, telemetry at all.

So how do you guys handle that compared to other Linux distros? But more importantly, how

is what you do compared to maybe something like Windows?

Yeah. So because our goal has always been to provide a better desktop experience,

A troubling trend that we've seen on proprietary systems like Windows, macOS, the big incumbents

is the additional focus on gathering sensitive data from users.

We can understand that it contributes to their bottom line, that they gain revenue either

through advertising or draining their AIs.

So we understand why they're doing it, but we know that it doesn't sit right with us.

It's not the kind of system that we would want to use if it sends back data to someone else.

So privacy has always been a really important factor for us and how we develop the system.

So we don't gather any private data, sensitive data from Zorin OS at all.

From the perspective of telemetry, there's the option of basically counting the number of users,

but that's about it.

and you can always opt out of it and you can just disable it from immediately when you install Zorin OS.

But we've always taken a very careful approach to making sure that it doesn't send any personal data whatsoever

and that we never know what our users are doing, who they are.

We know that if we want to provide a system that's better than Windows and macOS,

that privacy is a really important aspect to quite a lot of people and increasingly so nowadays.

So we always want to make sure that the decisions that we make always respect user privacy.

Got it.

And then what about kind of the overall security model?

I know some Linux distros try to prioritize slightly better security, maybe at the cost

of stability and other things.

So how do you balance those kind of values with maybe just a standard Ubuntu base?

Yeah.

So because Zorin OS is based on Ubuntu and obviously the Linux kernel, the developments

that those teams make to their repositories, to their software, from a security standpoint,

make their way into Zorin OS as well. That's one of the advantages of building on top of

an established system. So if there's any new vulnerabilities that get discovered in Linux

or a package that's included in Ubuntu, for example, like a base system package,

that it makes its way into Zorin OS pretty much immediately at the same time as it does in Ubuntu.

And of course, the fact that Zorin OS is open source and along with Ubuntu and other Linux

distributions makes it so that if anyone spots potential vulnerabilities, that they're immediately

known to the developers and that patches can come in either from the development team or from other

contributors around the world. That's the same model that allows, say, even the world's largest

servers and supercomputers to stay more secure just because you're not relying on one single company,

one group of people to patch these potential vulnerabilities. So all of those efforts make

their way downstream into Zorin OS as well. So the security aspect of Zorin OS is also a massive factor

why people make the switch from Windows and macOS and just being able to take advantage of all

those security improvements in a Linux-based system, but also make it really simple to use,

makes a big difference for our user base from who are generally new users.

Got it. Okay. And then I have some other just overall technical questions here that I noted down.

So why did you choose Ubuntu and not Debian? You know, you could have gone all the way to Debian,

you could have gone Arch, Fedora, et cetera. So why did you pick that?

Yeah, in large part, especially in the early days of Ubuntu, their focus has been on making, you know, Linux more user friendly and simple in the same way that we have.

So a lot of the decisions that they've made are software that they've developed that is included in Ubuntu reflects that goal.

All of the efforts that they've made make their way into Zorin OS.

And because Ubuntu is based on Debian, the same can be said about all of the work behind the Debian team, that all of that work also makes its way into Zorin OS.

But in large part, it's also because Ubuntu has just been, you know, one of the most popular, if not the most popular desktop operating systems based on Linux.

So whenever an app developer creates a version of their software for Linux, generally they'll be targeting Ubuntu as a primary candidate so that, you know, people making the switch from Windows to Zorin OS, they'd also be able to take advantage of that improved app support.

Same thing goes with technical support.

If someone encounters an issue, say like hardware incompatibility on Ubuntu, that same fix would generally also work in Xornimus.

So it's all about making it as, you know, simple to make that switch over.

Ubuntu is a really good platform for that for us.

Got it. And then what's your desktop environment?

Do you do something custom?

What's it based on?

Is it completely your own thing?

What's that look like?

Yeah, so we use the GNOME desktop environment as a base, but we've made a lot of changes and we've made a lot of improvements to the usability through the use of extensions.

So we developed a number of extensions to make the desktop layout a lot more familiar.

So like the taskbar, the start menu, they're originally developed by ourselves.

And what's cool about the open source ecosystem is that those improvements and those extensions that we've created have led a double life and actually have been adapted by other projects, have been maintained and contributed to by developers outside of us.

And those improvements make their way back into Zorin OS as well.

So because the GNOME desktop environment is so extensible and provides a lot of customization features through the extension ecosystem,

we're actually able to make the desktop a lot more adaptable since switching the desktop layout through Zorin Appearance is one of the main features that makes Zorin OS Zorin OS.

And GNOME makes it really easy and possible to support that.

it's surprising because uh to me and i'm sure to many others the most customizable

de of the most popular ones is most commonly cited as kde so what kind of attributes of gnome

for you guys made it more customizable and easier to work with than kde yeah so kde is it's a really

cool project and it's possible to customize it sort of out of the box stock with as many different

toggles as they do that generally Gnome doesn't offer by default. But what makes Gnome really

unique is their extension ecosystem in the fact that, you know, if you create an extension,

you can essentially what's known as monkey patch the desktop, which means that you can literally

replace a part of the user interface with your own because it is built in JavaScript and it's

interpreted on runtime. So you can actually overwrite how certain parts of the desktop work.

Obviously, by default, if you're used to GNOME, you may find it a bit difficult to switch over to if

you're more familiar with a traditional desktop environment like in Windows or macOS, simply

because the layout that's provided by default is very sparse and very different. But because

the extension ecosystem lets you, you know, drill down into the nitty gritty details of how the

desktop was implemented and you're able to override it, you can change it to look like pretty much

anything if you're familiar with how JavaScript works and how the desktop environment is built.

So it allows us to, you know, make changes like the start menu taskbar, doc, just through code

at interpretation. Very nice. Okay, so let's say for whatever reason Zorin doesn't work for somebody,

but they like the desktop environment. Can they use your desktop environment on any other Linux

distro without any problems? Yeah, because GNOME extensions are transferable between Linux

distributions, you can literally go out and install the extensions that we create and that we ship in

Zorin OS on any other GNOME system, assuming they're on the same version of GNOME that Zorin OS is using.

So yeah, you can extract the extensions and basically rebuild the Zorin desktop environment on other Linux distributions, if you wish, or take elements of it, if you wish.

Very nice. And then what's your release schedule like? Are you guys long-term release?

Would you say you're on the faster end of things, slower? What's your philosophy behind updates?

Yeah, we're more so on the long-term release side of things.

We don't have a very set release schedule.

It's generally we release when the product is ready.

But for major new versions of Zorin OS, it roughly happens every two years.

And we have interim point releases every six months, give or take.

So that improves the hardware support during the release cycle.

But the main reason why we do long-term support releases for our major versions,

more so than, you know, like a rolling release schedule,

is about providing the most stable desktop experience as possible.

So if we're thinking about, you know, who are our users who are generally, you know, more new users

or people who just want the computer to just work, having a stable system, I think, is a bit more

important than, you know, having all the most bleeding edge versions of all the different

packages out of the box with the risk that you might encounter breakages, because most people

just want the computer to just work. And that's what we sort of err on the side of.

Got it. And then I guess that's a really good segue into my next section, which is a little

bit more on the usability side of things, still on the technical usability side of things. So what

are your, do you have any compatibility layers out of the box? So let's say there's a piece of

software that they only ship on Windows. Do you guys implement wine, bottles, Proton, etc. out of

the box for users? Yeah. So for example, if you like double click on a.exe installer file from

Windows, one of the features that, you know, is included in Zorin OS, that's, I believe, an exclusive

feature that you don't really find on other distributions is a dialogue that actually tells

you like, what's the best way to go about installing this app. So we actually have a built-in database

of Windows app installer files,

where if you double click on the file,

it matches that database and checks to see,

oh, okay, you're installing,

say you're trying to install the.exe for Google Chrome,

for example, let's just say.

It'll find that, hey,

there's actually a better way to install it

and specifically use the Linux native version of that app.

So if there is a Linux native version of the app

in the software store,

it'll go out and direct you to that listing there.

So it also teaches you the right way to install apps in Zorin OS as compared to in Windows,

where you'd normally use a.exe file for everything.

But at the same time, there might be apps that aren't compatible, that don't have Linux native

versions.

And that dialog also directs you to install Windows app support, which is basically a

bundle of wine and bottles so that you can double click, install the app.

And if it's supported in Wine, you're able to use it just like you would in Windows or even like a native Linux app.

On top of that, like there are some apps that, you know, may not work in Wine or bottles perfectly.

And so within that app installer database, we also can suggest alternatives that may work better that are Linux native.

Like, say, for example, if you double click on the EXE for Microsoft Office, you know, that dialogue says, hey, you can use LibreOffice, which is pre-installed in Zorin OS, and that's compatible with Microsoft Office documents.

Or you can also use the online version of Office if you want to use the official app.

So it directs you to the best way to use the software that you need and guides you on how best to do it in Linux and Zorin OS.

Very nice. And then what's kind of your state right now when it comes to ARM? I know it's a bit new still to the Linux world. There aren't that many ARM devices yet. Do you guys have a native ARM installer for Zorin? And also what does software compatibility look like right now? Do you do any kind of translations for 64-bit applications? I don't know if you do any of that kind of stuff.

Yeah, at the moment, we're focused on traditional desktop and laptop computers with x86 processors.

So we don't have an ARM installer at the moment.

That's something that we're working towards, especially now as more ARM-based computers are coming onto the market.

In the past, it's generally been directed more towards, you know, tinker boards like Raspberry Pis that are more focused for engineers rather than, you know, day-to-day computer users.

But as that's changing, we're working towards making SORNOS installable on ARM computers.

So we've been compiling our packages, you know, our repositories for ARM so that when we make that switch over and introduce a native ARM version that, you know, everything would work out of the box as much as possible.

And what's really cool to see as well in the wider Linux ecosystem is a lot of efforts being made to allow the translation of x86 apps to ARM to happen basically on the fly and with as little performance loss as possible.

I saw recently Valve made an announcement that they're funding and supporting the development of an ARM translation layer for one of their upcoming products.

So that will make it a lot easier for you to run the apps that you need on ARM-based computers in Linux, which would eventually make its way into Zorin OS for sure.

I would love to see that because I've been playing around with Asahi on the Mac and it runs beautifully.

I've never run a smoother Linux machine thus far.

I mean, everything just opens instantly.

It feels rock solid.

It's very stable.

But man, the software availability right now on Linux is pretty poor for ARM-based devices.

And combine that with the already existent limitations of DNF and Flatpaks and not having access to apt is pretty, it does feel very limiting.

I mean, I can't get the official Signal app in any easy way, right?

Because there's the unofficial Signal app Flatpak, but I'm not going to be running an unofficial version of Signal from the community.

No offense to the community.

I just want to get verified actual signal from the developers.

It's a very sensitive piece of software that I want to make sure is trustworthy.

And so I'm excited to see a translation layer where even if signal developers don't want to roll out ARM-based support for Fedora or whatever distro, people can still translate that.

And I think it's very much needed in the Linux ecosystem right now for the few ARM users out there, I guess.

I don't know how popular they are.

It sounds like they're not that popular yet.

Yeah, I mean, like it is a bit of a chicken and egg problem where if the hardware isn't out in the market and isn't widely used, then the app developers won't make their apps.

But, you know, you might not buy the ARM-based hardware if the app developers aren't making the apps for it.

So there is a bit of a dilemma, but we are seeing how third party app developers are compiling their apps for ARM more and more so than there was in the past.

But also the introduction of such translation layers would make a massive difference.

for sure. So exciting times ahead of us. Yeah, I'm excited for that. I think Linux sounds really good

to someone who hasn't used it before. You know, on Windows, macOS, you can pretty much run any

software you can think of, especially for professionals. And so what does that realistically

look like? You know, if somebody uses Adobe for their day-to-day job or they're using DaVinci

Resolve, Final Cut Pro, what are some realistic expectations they can have before moving

over to something like Zorin, which, you know, presents itself as kind of like a really easy

switch for most people. Yeah. So it's we're going through interesting times when it comes to software

support, especially on the creative side of things. For example, Affinity recently announced that

they're exploring the creation of a Linux version for their suite. And more and more apps are

becoming available for Linux, like DaVinci Resolve, as you mentioned, Bitwig Studio, if you do

music production apps and tools like these. Obviously, there's still a bit of a gap when it

comes to some apps like the Adobe Suite. And while they do have online versions that work

cross-platform, the entire feature set and experience does still leave a bit to be desired.

But there are some interesting projects out there in the Linux world that aim to bridge that gap

that we're helping to support,

like say, for example, Windboat,

where if you have a Windows app

that only works in Windows,

that doesn't support Wine,

that can't run natively in Linux because of that,

it gives a really simple and user-friendly way

to create essentially a virtual machine,

a containerized version of Windows

that runs isolated within your Linux environment

and then exposes the app as if it is a native app.

So in other words, it goes and runs Windows in a VM on your system to power the backend,

but then you're actually able to use like Adobe Photoshop as if it's a native app on Linux.

So really exciting work happening there.

And perhaps in the future, we might be able to implement it inside of Zorin OS just to make it even easier for Windows users to switch over to Linux and use all of their favorite apps.

But I also have to say that the suite of native apps in Linux has been getting better and better every year.

Like, say, for example, Kdenlive, Krita, the Gimp Image Editor, Inkscape as well.

We use that very heavily when we're developing Zorin OS.

So it is very much a professional grade suite of apps that's natively available for Linux.

And if someone is interested in switching over to Linux and using these apps, one thing that we would recommend is also just installing those apps in your Windows or macOS environment, since they are cross-platform, seeing if they work for your workflow.

And then once you get accustomed to using these apps, to switch over to a Linux-based system like Zona would be a lot easier because you've already developed that workflow in those Linux native apps that are also cross-platform.

So there's lots of options and the options are getting better and better every year.

Very nice.

Yeah, I was quite excited when I saw the Affinity announcement.

I wish it was a little more formal.

Like, I wish it was like, hey, we plan to release it in the next X amount of months.

Here's what we plan to do.

But any announcement and any kind of, I don't know, hint that they're working on it is pretty

exciting.

So I have high hopes there because we use Affinity back here for our thumbnails, for our image

editing, et cetera.

Like, we're pretty heavy.

We use DaVinci Resolve and Affinity.

And if Affinity is taken care of, then theoretically, like all of our professional software that

we use back here is theoretically Linux native, though DaVinci Resolve's Linux support is iffy a

little bit sometimes. But it's exciting times. It's really cool to see like actual massive

organizations treating Linux seriously. And I do want to touch on that because it seems like

there's been a huge uptick in Linux usage that I know you guys have been seeing. So I want to get

to that maybe later in the interview. But before then, before I get carried away, what are the

default app choices that you guys make and why do you make those choices? So like what's your default

browser, default mail client, what can people kind of expect out of the box when they choose to use

Zorin? We curate what apps come pre-installed in Zorin OS very carefully and we're always

reiterating you know what's the best one in to include in this new version. So say for a web

browser we include Brave and we made that choice primarily to support as many different web apps

and web features as possible.

So it's a popular and well-known browser,

but also the focus on privacy has been a massive factor

when deciding to switch to Brave,

which is a choice that we made last year.

So we're really happy with that.

And our user community has really applauded that switch.

For a mail client, we include Evolution,

predominantly because it has great integration

with the desktop environment, GNOME,

and supports, you know, certain, you know, mail protocols like exchange that some users

in organizations might find absolutely critical.

So we want to support as many of the features and workflows that people have.

And Evolution Mail happens to do a really good job of doing that in a really simple and user-friendly

way.

Then a lot of the apps that we include as system utilities are the ones that are developed

by the GNOME team.

They've done a really good job on making them really user friendly.

They've had a really strong focus on design of the user experience.

So apps like the software store, the sound recorder, the text editor, they all are apps that you might take for granted, but they've put a lot of work into making sure it's, you know, as simple and user friendly as possible.

In like the pre-core edition, we generally want to make the app selection as streamlined as possible from the feedback that we hear from our users so that users can have a system that's lean and ready to go out of the box.

But when it comes to like the pro edition, we do include a lot more apps for creative professionals and power users, as I mentioned before.

Gimp Image Editor, Inkscape, Kdenlive, Ardor for audio production.

These are all basically a curated list of apps that are basically the best of the best when it comes to the open source app ecosystem on Linux for creative professionals and for production.

Nice. And then kind of pivoting over to, I guess, different use cases for Zorin.

I saw on your website, you guys have Zorin Grid, which seems to go against a little bit maybe of the initial philosophy, at least at first glance, it sounds like it kind of is different from the initial philosophy of just being for a regular home user.

So what is Zorin Grid and what are you targeting there and how does that fit inside of your broader vision?

Yeah, so over the years, we've heard a lot more feedback from organizations and businesses, but also regular home users who might be, you know, on the IT teams in those businesses or organizations at work.

And they've been telling us how much they love using Zorin OS just personally at home or on like one or two computers.

But at the same time, if they wanted to deploy, you know, a Linux based system, not just Zorin OS, but predominantly Zorin OS across their organization, that it can be a bit of a challenge.

And because our goal from day one was to increase the usage of Linux in general on computers, we see that, you know, organizations and business users are a massive market and they are one of the bigger users of PCs and laptops.

So it makes perfect sense to also make Zorin OS really usable for them.

But the idea behind Zorin OSgrid actually came from a bit of a story a few years back.

which was back in 2016.

There was a city in Italy called Vicenza.

It's a couple of kilometers west of Venice.

And they actually decided to switch their computers

from Windows to Zorin OS very informally.

Around that time, Windows XP was losing support.

It's in the similar regard to, you know,

more recently as Windows 10 was losing support.

So they didn't want to throw away all of their old computers

and buy new ones just to continue running Windows.

So they wanted to repurpose their existing computers and have a system that runs better than Windows for their staff.

So they made that switch to XornOS with the help of the local Linux user group.

They were quite happy with the transition, but the main downside that they encountered was actually managing all the computers was a bit of a pain.

So if they wanted to install an app or change a setting across all of the computers, they'd have to bring someone around to each machine,

which we thought there must be a better way of doing it.

So that's why we decided to create Soarin' Grid.

Based on their feedback and from what we hear from our users,

we see it as the missing piece in the puzzle that would let organizations

and businesses and schools to make the switch to Linux en masse.

It's the one thing that's holding them back from switching away from Windows

or Chrome OS or macOS on their computers.

And because we want to spread the advantages of Linux,

as far as we can.

We see it as a really important tool to create.

So that's why we've decided to create it as well.

Are you guys used in any other interesting environments?

Like, are there any schools that you know of

that use you guys?

Who else uses you guys?

Yeah, no, we've heard countless stories

of like all sorts of different organizations.

Schools especially is something that really excites us.

And that's one of the main reasons

why we created the education edition of Zorin OS, which has preloaded educational apps for all

sorts of different classes. But a really cool organization in particular is Tech Bridges to

Malawi, where they actually donate old computers that had windows on them to schools in Malawi,

where they didn't have access to computing or internet before. So they provide these refurbished

computers. They install Zorin OS on them and they provide training to the schools in rural Malawi

so that, you know, thousands of kids can get a better education, which is something that we find

really exciting. We didn't imagine that Zorin OS would be used in this way, but we're really,

we're really happy and really proud that, you know, there are such great teams working on this problem.

Yeah. And I guess that's my next question is actually going to be about this. So it's a good,

segue there. Devices. I feel like this is one of the huge hurdles for a lot of people. The

installation process. I feel like no matter how easy you make it to install a Linux distro,

that's still too much of a hurdle. So first, what does your installation process look like?

And how does that compare to maybe just regular Ubuntu? And then if that's still too complicated

for someone, are there options for people to buy a device that comes with Zorin out of the box?

I do know I've had a vessel on from Nova Custom on this podcast,

and I do believe Nova Custom does ship you guys,

but are there any other alternatives there?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, yeah, the Zorin OS installation sequence is quite similar to Ubuntu,

so we use the same Ubiquity installer,

which the Ubuntu team have done a really great job

of making it as simple and user-friendly as possible.

It's a very step-by-step graphical installation method.

One of the ways that Zorin OS differs from Ubuntu is actually the pre-installation and pre-loading of the NVIDIA graphics drivers.

So some computers, if they have an NVIDIA graphics card, they might experience some issues like in Ubuntu with booting up the installer.

So they can't even start the installer.

We offer the option of booting the Zorin OS. installation medium

with those NVIDIA drivers pre-installed

so that you can go through the installation process

and those graphics drivers are pre-installed by default.

Like historically, NVIDIA has been a bit of a challenge to work with on Linux,

but they have improved their drivers throughout the years,

but also to make the experience even more seamless

and the feedback that we've heard from users,

That's one of the reasons why we went above and beyond what Ubuntu does and offered the

NVIDIA drivers as an option when booting the installation medium.

The second part of your question, yeah, we have been working with a few computer manufacturers

and brands like Nova Custom, also Star Labs, Laptop with Linux, to offer computers with

Zorin OS pre-installed.

Obviously, that makes the process of switching to Zorin OS a bit easier because it's already

pre-installed for you.

You don't have to do the installation process yourself.

And we're seeing more and more people opting for, you know, buying a new computer with Linux pre-installed instead of Windows.

And it's really cool to work with these manufacturers to have Zorin OS pre-installed.

You know, there's still quite a gradual ramp up to get more people to know about these manufacturers and switch to Linux by default.

It's definitely small steps, but really important ones to make.

So, you know, if someone is more comfortable installing Zorin OS on their computer, maybe they're a little more technical.

So the process isn't that technical or difficult.

They can install it on their own computer that they already have.

Or if they'd prefer, you know, a simpler user experience or they want to buy a new computer, the option also exists to install, to have Zorin OS pre-installed on these computers to buy.

Got it.

And, you know, with the pre-installed option, I don't know if this varies by manufacturer,

but let's say I opt for Zorin through Nova Custom.

Does that come with free or pro Zorin?

Or is that a choice that you pick?

Yeah, that could be a choice that you pick.

If you prefer, you know, a more lean app selection, you could go for the core edition.

If you'd prefer, you know, a larger app selection, more features out of the box,

support service directly from us, you can also choose to have Soren West Pro pre-installed.

And is that when I'm checking it out, when I'm purchasing the device, or is that after I buy

the device and I get it and I open it, then I have a choice? So both. So you can have Soren West Pro

pre-installed on the computers at the checkout on Nova Customs website, for example. But also if you

have Zorin OS core on your computer, you can also use the upgrade app within Zorin OS to upgrade to

the Pro Edition. If you feel like you want the additional apps or you want, you know, support

service, or you just want to contribute to the project, you also have that choice after the fact.

Got it. And then I did want to ask what you think the realistic limitations are of Zorin. So if

someone's listening to this, they've been on Windows or macOS their whole life, and they're

going, okay, this sounds cool. I want to try it out. What would you realistically come forward and say,

okay, these are kind of a list of things that might actually prevent you from using Zorin.

And you might have to end up going back to Windows or macOS if you hit on, you know,

these specific snags along the way. Yeah, no, absolutely. There's the more, the most obvious

one of these potential setbacks is the apps that you use, what workflow you go through.

So of course, there are some apps that aren't natively compatible with Linux,

some of which you may be able to get using with wine or bottles, but that's something for you to

test. And you can test whether these apps work or your hardware works just from booting Zorin OS

up from a USB. So you don't actually have to install Zorin OS to test whether this works.

But that's something to think about if you're making the switch. It might be worth making a

list of the apps that you need to use. Maybe some of them have cross-platform versions that work on

Linux. In that case, it should be more or less a simple switch over. If there are apps where they

only have like a Windows or macOS version, that's something that may not need to be looked at a bit

further, maybe you can get them working, or maybe you'd have to switch to an alternative that's

natively compatible with Linux that has the same features and lets you work with the same workflow.

And there are a lot of great alternatives to some, you know, Windows or Mac only apps. So app support

is probably the first consideration people should give if they're not sure whether they can switch

to Linux. The other thing is hardware support, which over the years has gotten way, way better.

So that's less of a consideration now than it was 5, 10 years ago.

But as I said before, you can download a copy of Zorin OS and run it from a USB drive without

having to install it natively on your computer, just to have a quick check through to see

everything works.

You know, you can get on the internet, you can play audio, all the hardware features that

you need work.

99 times out of 100, what we hear is everything works fine out of the box.

Sometimes you may have some hardware features that may not work.

You could contact us if you've got a copy of Pro and we can help set that up.

But it may be worth checking before installing Zorin OS that way.

Got it.

And then let's say someone tries out Zorin and they go, oh, I actually really like this.

But I am completely like it's a must.

I need to use Adobe Premiere for my job and I just can't get it working to the performance that I want it to perform at on Zorin.

can they still dual boot and potentially just use work on Windows and then use you guys personal?

Is that still well supported? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So that's also an option. So

you can install Zorin OS alongside Windows. You don't have to replace it on your computer. And

every time you start up your computer, you can either choose to boot into Zorin OS or Windows.

So it's not a full on commitment to switch from Windows to Zorin OS. You can have both on your

computer and, you know, use certain apps that may be Windows only on Windows and then switch over

to Zorin OS when you're doing other tasks. And so you can get the best of both worlds that way.

Very nice. And then kind of just entering the final part of the interview here, I wanted to

zoom out a little bit and kind of ask about you guys a bit more. Where are you based out of? What's

there from day one, as well as someone who handles our customer support.

So even though the core team behind Zorin OS is quite small and lean, the fact that

Zorin OS is built collaboratively with our community and also is based on Linux and open

source ecosystems, it basically means that essentially there are thousands of developers

behind all of the software that goes into Zorin OS, both directly and indirectly.

So even large companies behind, say, like Intel or Canonical or Red Hat, IBM, even funnily enough, Microsoft, they contribute code into the Linux kernel and Linux software stack, even on the desktop.

So a lot of the work that goes behind Zorin OS and most other Linux distributions, you know, benefit from the work of all sorts of different developers, thousands of developers all over the world working in concept for a singular goal.

So it's a massive community when it comes to who does the work behind Zorin OS and other Linux distributions, even if the core team isn't enormous.

Got it. And you guys are based where?

So we're based in Dublin, Ireland.

And though we have a large amount of users all over the world who also contribute to us.

Very cool. I fully get it.

So I'm asking for someone who's new to the idea of open source and the community.

They might hear, oh, OK, so you guys take this work that thousands of people do and you make it your own,

which is not at all how open source is. But I guess for someone who hears that, do you have a

general response to that? And also, do you guys kind of give back to the community in some way,

shape or form as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, open source is a very interesting model where,

you know, the software is out in the open and you can use it for whatever purpose you wish.

You can make changes to it. You can contribute back upstream. So the fact that there are more

people using and developing around different open source projects means that those open source

projects become stronger. So even in cases where, you know, someone's using a certain open source

project in a way that it was never intended to, maybe the developers modified it to work in a

different way, you know, those ideas and their code still makes it out into the open. So if someone

wants to use it in that other way, or maybe their upstream developers want to improve their upstream

project based on the work that other people have done indirectly, they can adopt some of that code

and develop it so that's better for everyone to use. So it gives a lot more options for innovation,

really. And that's one of the core strengths that open source software has over proprietary

software. It can just be more adaptable. It can be used in different ways. And those different

developers working on different ways ultimately can contribute back upstream. In our case,

we've been really grateful for all of the support and work that other developers have done. But at

the same time, we also love to contribute back with the software that we develop. But also,

for example, over the Christmas period, we contributed some of the funds that we've

earned with the Zorin OS Pro Edition back into the apps and software that power Zorin OS and make Zorin OS

better. Apps like the Gimp Image Editor, Kdenlive, Inkscape. We've made donations to them to give

back to those communities. And I think, you know, every large project out there has a different way

that they can give back to software that they use that underlies there. And this is just our way of

doing it. Yeah, it's something that I wish happened a little bit more because I don't know if people

realize probably how much of the code behind the operating systems and the software that they use

on a day-to-day basis from big tech companies still indirectly or even sometimes directly came

from the open source community. But it is quite rare for the big tech companies to actually

compensate those projects that they have, you know, borrowed code from. It is a problem. I think the

open source community would be much stronger if companies that use open source code did a better

job of compensating the projects that they use code from. So I do just overall wish that was a

slightly, I just wish that was better. That's pretty much what I have to say about that.

And then I also wanted to ask about downloads. I've been following you guys on socials,

and I repost some of your stuff. And you've been really blowing up, it seems like,

on the downloads. You guys have been seeing a huge uptick in the last six to 12 months,

it seems like. What does that look like? What's it feel like? But also, what do you attribute

that to? Is it because Windows continues to and shitify with every new update? Is it just people

discovering Linux for the first time by chance? What are you guys kind of seeing back there?

Yeah, I think it's a multitude of reasons. Just we've been around for quite a long time,

you know, 16, 17 years. And it's the uptake of Linux in general, as well as Zorin OS is nothing

like it's ever been before. And sure, there are many decisions that Microsoft have made to that

have given users reasons to think about alternatives. And certainly that's been a massive

path for people on their way to Linux and Zorin OS. But also the Linux ecosystem,

system uh the software has gotten way better over the years people are able to use a lot more of the

apps that they use for work or productivity or play with games on linux more so than ever before

and that just makes linux a lot more accessible uh certainly in the short term like saying the

last three months since we released Zorin OSos 18 a massive driver of growth to linux and Zorin OSos has

been the end of Windows 10 support and where a lot of the computers that have Windows 10

running on it by some estimates quarter billion computers can't upgrade to Windows 11.

So either you know those users have to throw those computers away and buy new ones just continue

running a supported version of Windows with Windows 11 or they could switch to an alternative

And given with the increase of hardware prices, RAM prices, especially in recent times, that's just given more reasons for users to think of alternatives and research them.

And because of the work we and the Linux community have done throughout the many years that we've been developing the system, you know, it has gotten a lot more user friendly.

The software support has improved.

So it actually has become a viable alternative to Windows that people can switch over to as general computer users.

You don't have to be super technical or an engineer to switch to Linux nowadays.

So the barriers to entry for new users have gone way down.

And the reasons for people to look for alternatives have gone way up in recent times.

Yeah, it's mind blowing.

I can't believe just how poorly Microsoft botched this whole Windows 10 thing.

I mean, even for us, we've done some coverage for it through surveillance report and different

videos about Windows 10.

And they perform quite well.

It resonates with people.

People are pissed about it.

I mean, it's a ton of e-waste that's been created by Microsoft.

And I don't understand even from a business perspective why Microsoft would jeopardize,

you know, if the number you cited is accurate, a quarter billion computers to be lost to

other operating systems, like to pay for an operating system and have a fully functional

device and not have official updates coming to it anymore is enough reason for a lot of

people to move to a Mac or just keep the same hardware and move to Linux or maybe buy a new

computer with Linux. But it's pretty mind blowing. So I, yeah. Yeah, it is an interesting choice.

Obviously, Microsoft as an organization has changed throughout the years. More and more of

the revenue is coming from, you know, online services and enterprise services, software as a

service tools, more so AI now as well, which would benefit from, you know, newer, more powerful

computers with neural processing units. So maybe that's another reason why they want to encourage

people to buy new computers. Ultimately, that helps to contribute to their bottom line. If the

data that users are generating through the computers make their way back to Microsoft,

Who knows how they handle that data?

There are many ways that it might make sense to them.

But from the standpoint of an ordinary computer user, it might not always be to our benefit.

So, yeah, it's just something to think about.

Yeah, did you see this was very refreshing?

Dell, I believe at CES, came forward and said, we're done with this AI marketing stuff.

Our users don't care.

it doesn't resonate with them and so Dell kind of moved away from the AI marketing which I thought

was quite refreshing. Yeah it's AI as a tool but also as a buzzword we see that there's a lot

large disconnect between what users want out of their technology and out of their computers and

what the big tech companies want to provide. So there's obviously a lot of buzz and a lot of hype

around AI, especially amongst the big tech companies and the investors behind them. But when we listen

to our users, we hear a lot of people saying that please don't include any AI tools. We just want a

normal computer experience that works. Some users may like to use AI, but on their own terms. So

that's one of the reasons why we haven't introduced any AI tools for the sake of AI. We want to be

neutral on that standpoint because that's what our users want. Again, there's also the factor of the

big tech companies using users' data to train their AI models. And that contributes to their

bottom line, but not necessarily to the interests of the users. And that also fuels the disconnect

in sentiment between the big companies and people actually using the technology. So it's an

interesting time. And it's interesting that even Dell admitted to this shift in sentiment. And we

have seen that you know consumer reports show that ai is very low down the list of reasons why

normal people choose one technology product over another so maintaining a close connection to your

users and being really aligned with your users makes a massive difference in actually delivering

a product that makes sense for users yeah it's it is i i don't understand it i mean because i i have

embraced AI a bit more, right? Like I've talked about this on my channel. But right now, any of

the use cases revolving AI are still mostly limited to just LLM chatbots, you know, just chatting back

and forth. But Microsoft has this assumption that people want to use AI in Microsoft Office and all

their professional software across the board. And it's like, I just, I personally, if this was just

magically on my computer. It was magically privacy respecting. Like everything was just perfect about

it. I still don't know if I would use it. And so I just find it quite fascinating. Our recording

got cut off. So if I'm repeating any of this, sorry about that. But pretty much a lot of these

LLMs and chatbots are kind of the main use case of AI right now. They're all web based. A lot of

people don't seem to have a strong use case to use local. When I say local, they're still, you know,

done online, but these tools that Microsoft tries to push via copilot. So my point is,

even if someone likes AI a lot, what would that even look like in an operating system like Zorin?

Like what value would you guys be able to provide someone with AI inside of Zorin OS

with the current state of AI, which isn't that developed yet? So I guess I'm just making the

point that I don't really even know what that would look like outside of just including an LLM

that anyone could utilize.

Yeah, I mean, because AI is such a young area,

the developers behind AI tools and products,

they're still at the moment trying to figure out

how exactly it should be used.

And of course, chatbots are the most obvious way

and that's how most people use them.

Obviously, there are different tools

that make use of machine learning

and some of the AI advancements

in the fields of like image editing or image creation.

But these are still fields where, you know,

they are solutions looking for a problem in many cases.

And it's important to be able to differentiate the hype

behind a certain piece of technology and how useful it can be.

And, you know, AI can be very useful in certain use cases

in the form of LLMs and image generation models.

But if they are to be more integrated in an operating system in this case, would they provide more value?

For the time being, we haven't noticed any use cases like that that make a huge amount of sense that actually need to be integrated very deeply into the operating system.

You know, if you want to use an image generation model or a chatbot, you can just do it in your web browser or a local app.

There are a few of them for Linux native ones, and you can use it in the same way that you

would have used it previously in other operating systems.

The way we think about developing products is not trying to figure out, hey, there's this

cool new technology.

How can we implement it into the product?

We think about it the other way around.

We think about what experience do we want to provide to users, and then we'll work our

way backwards to the technology.

That's how we feel it's the right way to develop technology products.

That's what we do.

And when we ask users, like, how can we make Zorin OS better?

Or when we look at feedback and figure out how can we make Zorin OS, the user experience behind it, a lot more seamless, a lot more useful to users.

There are many ways that we figure that out without needing to resort to, you know, AI in the background.

So it's an area that we're looking very closely at, that we're keeping in touch with all the

latest developments in the chances that it could potentially provide a better user experience.

For the time being, we haven't arrived on anything super standout that has to be integrated deeply

into the operating system that can be otherwise done ad hoc as a user would like it on their own

terms. But of course, we're always thinking of ways on how to improve Zorin OS as long as it stays

true to our values of being simple and privacy respecting and secure. Interesting times, but

it's important to let cooler heads prevail. Yeah. And I guess, what is the future?

What are you guys working on? What can people expect in the next one to five years?

Yeah, so we're always thinking about how to make Zorin OS a lot easier for current Windows users to switch over to.

So narrowing that app gap is a big focus of ours.

And we're thinking of different ways on how to improve supporting of Windows apps within Zorin OS, potentially using tools like Winboat, which I mentioned earlier.

And of course, figuring out ways on how to make Linux more accessible to general computer users, which is where Zorin Grid comes in.

Because we do see that there are two main gatekeepers that we've identified that decide what software gets used by most computer users.

There are the computer brands who ship, you know, Windows or macOS by default.

And people who are using their computers generally stick with the same operating system that came with the computers.

But then there's also the IT teams in organizations who can overwrite that decision and they can decide what software is used across their organization.

So that's why we want Soren Grid to make it a lot easier for them to have Linux as an option on the desktop.

That's where we see Grid as potentially a game changer, not just for Linux, but also just organizations and businesses in general.

And ultimately, over time, if we want more computer brands to ship with Linux by default, we have to give them a reason that, you know, actually a lot of users do specifically want a Linux based system.

And if organizations and businesses want to use Linux as their go-to operating system,

that could massively increase the user base of Linux.

And ultimately, people who are working in these organizations, they might see that the computers

that we're working on in the office work better than the ones at home.

Maybe it's because Linux is being used.

Maybe I should try it at home.

That's another potential path to getting more people using Linux.

So we're always exploring different ways on how to make Linux and Zorin OS more accessible for the wider audience.

Very nice. And are you exploring mobile devices at all or are you pretty committed to desktop?

At the moment, we're focused on desktop simply because we just see it as there's a massive gap between what most people are using on Windows in terms of how good the operating system is and how good it could be if they make the switch to Linux.

So all the advantages when it comes to making your computer run faster, a lot more privacy respecting, more secure, more powerful.

There's just such a huge gap between what people are experiencing on Windows and what they could be on Linux.

And that's what we're really focused on, narrowing that gap and making, you know, Linux a lot more accessible on the desktop.

Got it. Well, thank you so much for your time.

And I'll be sure to leave links as well to your project and anything else.

is there a place where people can follow you and keep up with what you're doing?

Yeah, I mean, you can follow us on Facebook or Twitter, but generally our email newsletter is

probably the best way to go. If you want to be on top of all of our latest news, you can also

check out on our user forum and different Linux based communities around, ask around about Zorin

West and keep updated that way. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. And I hope to

to see really exciting updates and even more downloads for Linux as a whole, and especially

you guys.

Yeah, thanks so much.

It's been a pleasure.

Really enjoyed our conversation.

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