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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:30:06
Unknown
your baby is learning before they ever enter the world. They come in as expert observers. They are watching your face and reading your facial expressions to gauge not only your mood, but their safety in an individual moment that they are watching the movement of your lips and your mouth and your tongue and trying to decipher how do I do the same
00:00:30:08 - 00:01:04:20
Unknown
Welcome to Best Beginnings, a podcast from Babyzone about what happens in the first five years of life and why it shapes everything that comes after. I'm George and my guest today, has spent 30 years inside a system he believes is built on a myth. Doctor Dan Wuori is a founder and president of the Early Childhood Policy Solutions, and has worked at nearly every level of early childhood policy in the United States, from kindergarten classrooms to running services inside a state agency to advising governors and lawmakers directly.
00:01:04:21 - 00:01:38:01
Unknown
He is also the author of a book with a deliberately provocative title, The Daycare Myth. What we Get Wrong about Early Care and Education? And it's that myth we'll talk about today. The idea that child care and early education are two separate things might be one of practical necessity. Somewhere safe to leave your child while you work. While education is something that starts later at the school gates, Dan's argument is that they were never separate, and that baby is learning from the very beginning, and that pretending otherwise has cost children, families, and taxpayers an extraordinary amount.
00:01:38:02 - 00:02:02:10
Unknown
The book's been nominated for a Grawemeyer Award in Education, and it feels like a particularly good moment to have this conversation. The UK is in the middle of its own childcare expansion, and many of the questions that Dan has spent his career wrestling with, about quality, about the workforce, about what we want childcare to achieve, are questions that we're asking in England right now to his argument, in short, is that fixing this isn't about picking a side.
00:02:02:11 - 00:02:10:07
Unknown
It's about being honest with ourselves and young children about what they really need. Dan, welcome to Best Beginnings.
00:02:10:09 - 00:02:12:05
Unknown
George. Thank you for the invitation.
00:02:12:07 - 00:02:24:07
Unknown
it does sound like a really great time to be having this this conversation. Fascinated about your book, The Daycare Myth? I guess I'd love to sort of start there. And maybe the choice of words.
00:02:24:07 - 00:02:28:12
Unknown
What is the myth and what does it perpetuate?
00:02:28:14 - 00:02:52:19
Unknown
Yeah. Well, you you hit on it kind of briefly in the in the introduction. The idea of the daycare myth is that there is somehow this thing called daycare or childcare that is completely separate and distinct from education. I know the same holds true to an extent in the UK. But, you know, here in the here in the States, we have an education system.
00:02:52:19 - 00:03:40:21
Unknown
We think of, you know, our kindergarten through 12th grade education system begins primarily when children are five, you know, increasingly at age four, as states have expanded pre-kindergarten, but definitely later in the in the preschool years, whereas we, you know, we have this separate system that we think of as being strictly sort of caregiving for, for much younger children, which affects then the way we view those settings, the way we view, frankly, the learning of young children, the way we view the the professionals who work in that space and the the argument in the book is that this has been a a century old myth, that there is this distinction between the two we know
00:03:40:21 - 00:04:14:03
Unknown
better than we ever have, George, and kind of in the history of humankind, about when learning begins. It's funny in the in the US, my work with policymakers, there's this phrase I don't I don't know how much it translates to the UK context, but we're always talking about, you know, getting children ready for school and in particular, the, you know, the phrase that policymakers love to use is this idea that we want children to come to kindergarten ready to learn, as though that is when learning begins.
00:04:14:03 - 00:05:03:00
Unknown
What we know with increasing clarity at this point is that learning, even to say that learning begins from day one, is a bit of a misnomer, that we know that children begin learning actually, in some basic but powerful ways in utero, right? That they, you know, that in utero they show a clear recognition of individual voices, obviously their mother's voice in particular, and that they, you know, have have demonstrated and research a preference for their moms voice over, you know, recordings of the voice of a stranger, for example, you know, before they are, before they are even born, the same thing holds true for, you know, sort of the rhythms and the patterns of their
00:05:03:00 - 00:05:37:04
Unknown
mothers native language, not suggesting that children are learning probably vocabulary in the womb, but they are hearing the kind of unique musicality of, you know, of of their mother's native language in the womb in ways that have been demonstrated, you know, that they have a preference for that even in the hours immediately after birth. And so, you know, I think we have sort of fooled ourselves into believing in some ways that the the early years are something lesser in terms of learning.
00:05:37:05 - 00:06:07:21
Unknown
You know, what we know instead is that it is an absolutely critical window that the fundamental architecture of the brain is wired during this time, and that we are suboptimal it as a result, you know, we have and here in the US, the, you know, the median wage for an infant teachers is $13.22 an hour, which is $0.59 an hour or less, according to the same data set that we pay dog walkers.
00:06:07:23 - 00:06:35:10
Unknown
And so, you know, the we are we are suboptimal. The development of these children to the extent that we are we are passing on what we know is sort of an incalculable long term cost to taxpayers, right? That we know from solid research that young children who are exposed to these high quality experiences are in better health and adulthood.
00:06:35:11 - 00:06:56:15
Unknown
They have better education outcomes. They are less reliant on social welfare programs just because they've gotten off to the right start. And so the argument in the book is basically that we are doing all of us a disservice by thinking of the early years as being somehow lesser.
00:06:56:17 - 00:07:32:19
Unknown
So I think what you just said there is fascinating and again, aligns so neatly down with what a lot of my guests have spoken about in terms of the neuroscience and the brain development in those first thousand days, but also how we go about ensuring that early years professionals are given the prestige of how do we make sure that the best people are attracted into the profession and that they're supported to stay there, whether that's from a career perspective and providing long term prospects, but also funding, making sure they're paid a wage that you said
00:07:32:19 - 00:07:52:00
Unknown
it's commensurate with the responsibility that they have. Why do you think that systems globally have failed to prioritize the early years and the people that work within the ecosystem compared to other parts of the school system or education more broadly?
00:07:52:02 - 00:08:22:06
Unknown
In the book. I sort of spell out my my fundamental thesis on this is, you know, if you did a Google News search for looking for articles about child care and, boy, this was especially prevalent at the height of the Covid pandemic. You know, the word that you would see over and over again is crisis, right? That there's a crisis in affordability and we have a crisis in accessibility, that even if you can afford it, you may not be able to find it.
00:08:22:09 - 00:08:46:01
Unknown
You know, we have a crisis of compensation for the workforce. And the case that I make here is that we, you know, these these things are all true, but these maybe are really symptomatic of a larger crisis. And that is just a crisis of understanding, right, that our policies and our knowledge of the early years have really not kept pace with, with one another.
00:08:46:01 - 00:09:25:19
Unknown
We, you know, we we understand, you know, in ways better than we ever have the importance of the early years. And yet our policies, in a lot of cases, tend to continue being a reflection of a desire that adults participate in the workforce more than they are grounded in anything good or important for for children. I you know, I want to always say very clearly, I think that's a, you know, workforce participation and the the prosperity of of individual families is a noteworthy, important goal in and of itself.
00:09:25:19 - 00:09:50:01
Unknown
But I think, you know, as the saying goes, we we need to, to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time here that, you know, that we we can't sacrifice the, you know, optimal early development of young children simply for the sake of of workforce participation. I'm a believer that we can do both, but that it will require additional investment in the early years.
00:09:50:02 - 00:10:02:22
Unknown
And is it just an investment? Because I agree with you, right? I mean, again, a lot of the discourse, the conversation in the UK is, you know, it's childcare hours. The funding offer that the government has brought in here is a productivity measure.
00:10:02:22 - 00:10:44:19
Unknown
It's to encourage moms, dads, carers to go back to the workplace so that their child and so they're funding their child to go to nursery or a childminder or another setting. But, you know, that is a obviously distinct policy choice that government Whitehall in London here have made. But do you do you see the sort of how do you get a system to be able to do that simultaneously high, high quality, with the right number of settings, the people that can staff it, and all of the support infrastructure that needs to sit around not just going, okay, we're going to build all of these new nursery places, and we're going to give parents the funding
00:10:44:19 - 00:10:52:15
Unknown
in order for their children to go there. What is the sort of there has to be some quite long term thinking in order to get that in place.
00:10:52:17 - 00:11:18:06
Unknown
Absolutely does. And that that sort of hits on the the policy portion of the of the book, as opposed to the developmental science part of the part of the book. But, you know, you hit on exactly the challenges that that countries that states, you know, here in the US are struggling with as they seek to expand. This isn't an easy thing to do in a lot of ways.
00:11:18:07 - 00:11:56:17
Unknown
And one of the, you know, one of the challenges always is making sure that we keep children really at the center of this, of this conversation. But I know, you know, as as England is in the middle of its sort of rollout of a more kind of universal child care model, or at least a universal benefit. You know, I think this is absolutely the right time to have this conversation because it's, you know, you can you can succeed in ways that ultimately won't, won't do you well, right?
00:11:56:18 - 00:12:19:16
Unknown
I mean, if the if the goal is simply to have more adults participating in the workforce, you know, and we say, okay, we're going to we're going to change the adult child ratios in classrooms, for example, to make sure that more kids can can access the service. Well, you know, on one hand, more is more kids accessing a good thing.
00:12:19:16 - 00:13:04:01
Unknown
It it may well be, but if the you know, if the quality of that program was not good to begin with, or if, you know, if the quality of that program suffers as a result of having too many young children in a in a classroom. You know, I would argue that the benefits from, you know, a year's worth of workforce participation, for example, might not well be outweighed by the long term costs of, you know, insecure attachment between infants and their parents or, you know, the health ramifications and the other developmental ramifications of not having sufficient stimulation during those years.
00:13:04:01 - 00:13:14:04
Unknown
So the you know, the real question is, I think, beginning from what are we trying to accomplish here and kind of reverse engineering from there.
00:13:14:04 - 00:13:24:02
Unknown
And I love your point about quality, because, again, I think it's always the temptation from a policy perspective to go, we want to roll out 100 of these or 1000 of them, or we want everyone to be doing this.
00:13:24:02 - 00:13:47:06
Unknown
And you miss what a really high quality intervention or early childhood setting looks like. What, in your opinion, it could be in South Carolina or it could be in in the UK, it could be anywhere. What does a really great childcare or daycare offer look like? Both for the child and for parents?
00:13:47:08 - 00:14:13:04
Unknown
Well, it's a great question. I love I love talking with, with parents about this particular thing because I think in a lot of ways we as, as parents tend to look at maybe the wrong things as we are selecting a program for our our infants and toddlers in particular, that, for example, that we may be very dazzled by the physical setting itself.
00:14:13:05 - 00:14:39:12
Unknown
Right? That, you know, I have been in some I'm sure you have, George, some absolutely dazzling multi-million dollar, you know, child care buildings that have every bell and whistle and new piece of equipment and so on. And you know, that that can can sort of provide almost a false sense of security that this is a high quality place.
00:14:39:12 - 00:14:55:18
Unknown
What I, what I encourage parents to do, certainly, you know, with the caveat that we, you know, we need there is a flaw here as well, right, that we, you know, obviously need, you know, safe and appropriate settings for, for children. But
00:14:55:20 - 00:15:04:14
Unknown
the real trick in terms of looking at classroom quality is the interactions between the teachers and the children, right?
00:15:04:15 - 00:15:31:14
Unknown
That you know that if you if you go into and I always encourage parents go, go visit and by go visit and you know, I know it's awkward. I've you know, I've walked through a million of these where you kind of peak your head in the door and spend 10s or, you know, something in the, in the classroom, go and go and visit the classroom that your child is likely to be enrolled in and stay there for 30 minutes.
00:15:31:16 - 00:16:06:16
Unknown
You know, make yourself kind of unobtrusive in the in the corner. But, you know, if what you see during that time is two adults who are off talking to one another in a corner of the room, you know, that is your sign to to run away. You know, if if instead you go into that classroom and maybe it actually takes a moment for you to figure out where the adults are because they're down on the floor at eye level with the, you know, with with toddlers, they are, you know, extending their language, extending their play.
00:16:06:18 - 00:16:15:18
Unknown
You know, that's that is a real green light sort of of indicator that ultimately this comes down to, to human interactions.
00:16:15:21 - 00:16:36:01
Unknown
And so I think, you know, my best advice is to become comfortable with the people, with their style of interacting with the children, with the size of, you know, with how much, you know, to this point of like group sizes and, and ratios, you know, how much individual attention will your child receive?
00:16:36:03 - 00:16:41:16
Unknown
Those are really the key is not, you know, not whether it's in a a multimillion dollar setting.
00:16:41:18 - 00:17:00:20
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. And we see again across across England there are some buildings that you look at from the outside and they're not much to look at. But, you know, people within them are what make it really meaningful and can build that deep relationship with families and very young children and babies.
00:17:00:21 - 00:17:19:23
Unknown
And as you say, that's that's the critical moment. Those those serve and return type conversations that primary care giver, other caregivers can give to those children that have a really meaningful impact on them, then I'd love to. I'd love to hear about how we got here, because I sort of mentioned the top of your the call around your background.
00:17:20:00 - 00:17:46:21
Unknown
You've done had a variety of roles in education on the front line as well as from an advisory perspective. What was the moment? What was the thing that you saw or the thing that you kind of really wanted to change? And that inspired the book, that it inspired your kind of professional career at the moment. What was it that you have observed that's led to us having this conversation today?
00:17:46:23 - 00:18:17:00
Unknown
Well, I you know, I always like to say I, I feel like my career has really been just sort of a quest for impact that I, I began education as a kindergarten teacher, and I'm not sure I'll ever love a job as much as I did that one. You know, having the chance to have a really close, important relationship with a small group of kids every year in my classroom was really special.
00:18:17:01 - 00:18:49:15
Unknown
But I also recognized as other opportunities came along that, you know, that, you know, that that impact could spread past 20 kids a year, right? And so progressively, I think I have worked up from a school to a district to a state to now, you know, national and international conversations around this that I'm hopeful are really helping to touch the lives of children and families around the world.
00:18:49:15 - 00:19:20:01
Unknown
And so the book, you know, the book really stemmed in in large part from my work in recent years with with policymakers. You know, I've had the opportunity to work all across the US, you know, with elected leaders who are working to strengthen their systems. One of, you know, the the process, I guess I would say, you know, definitely highlighted challenges and missed opportunities and lessons from those states that I, that I wanted to share.
00:19:20:01 - 00:19:48:21
Unknown
But maybe the biggest lesson, George, that I learned in that work and continue to learn is that this is not a Partizan sort of issue, right? That what what we are finding in the US is incredible leadership for young children in what we refer to as red states, conservative states and blue states as well. And, you know, there are individual policymakers who are real champions for this and that.
00:19:48:21 - 00:20:15:20
Unknown
Importantly, voters really care about this all across the across the spectrum. And so this was my effort to kind of spotlight, you know. First off, the the maybe the error in our ways, the ways that, you know, our thinking had become a little bit outdated, but also to help to interrogate some of the some of the popular early childhood policies that are happening in the States and to think through their implications.
00:20:15:20 - 00:20:44:05
Unknown
And so I've been really delighted by how well the book has been received here. And, you know, I was telling you before we before we started recording, what a surprise it was to me to find how resonant the book was actually for the audiences I have spoken to in the, in the UK, obviously, you know, there are some, some, you know, fine, detailed nuances that are kind of specific to the, the British or the American perspective.
00:20:44:06 - 00:21:17:09
Unknown
But the big picture questions around how do we compensate these important professionals, and how do we show them the respect that they really deserve, commensurate with the importance of their role? And why does this matter not only for children, but for all of us as a society? You know, I think our messages from the book that, you know, really have translated well internationally in a way, frankly, that had had I had I realized it would have an have any interest outside of the US.
00:21:17:09 - 00:21:25:21
Unknown
I, I probably would have written it in a little more inclusive way internationally to, to, to really uplift those
00:21:25:23 - 00:21:31:13
Unknown
save that for the, for the second edition or the next iteration. There's always that opportunity.
00:21:31:13 - 00:21:32:15
Unknown
we're definitely talking about
00:21:32:20 - 00:21:40:07
Unknown
I'd love to I'd love to sort of go deep in some of the policies that you've sort of been at the forefront of spearheading.
00:21:40:07 - 00:22:11:05
Unknown
And, you know, obviously South Carolina first Steps is one that, you know, you've turned good policy, which can sound great, but you've got to also deliver it. You've got to implement that on the ground with families. And I guess, you know, what have you seen that looked like a great strategy paper and a policy document, but hasn't necessarily landed on the on the floor of a classroom versus some of the work that you've seen actually has gone on to have a meaningful impact and drive outcome outcomes for children.
00:22:11:07 - 00:22:34:12
Unknown
Yeah. You know, one thing that I would, would say that may be surprising to, to some who have worked with me at different points in my career. You know, as a, as a school district administrator and then within a state agency context, I was responsible for, you know, expansions of pre-kindergarten for four year olds, for example, and led a lot of that work.
00:22:34:13 - 00:23:01:15
Unknown
Increasingly, my thinking is around around infants and toddlers, though, and the, the needs, you know, in the same way that I, you know, sort of the transformation that I went through working as a kindergarten teacher and then becoming a new parent, right, that I the things that were so dazzling to me about how smart these five year olds I was, was working with, you know, really got hammered home when I became a dad.
00:23:01:15 - 00:23:26:00
Unknown
And I, you know, I started to really grasp how the, you know, the amazing things that these kindergarten students were capable of were really grounded in the, in the learning of babies. And so, you know, that has become a big part. So, so maybe I've de-emphasized my, you know, I did a lot of professional work in the later preschool years.
00:23:26:00 - 00:23:55:21
Unknown
But I think my thinking now is, is much more around infants and toddlers and that I, you know, you may find that I am as likely at this point, are probably much more likely to be advocating for, you know, paid family leave and, you know, extended maternity paternity leave, you know, during the earliest months of life as a strategy than I would, you know, than I would be advocating for pre-kindergarten for four year olds.
00:23:55:23 - 00:24:17:02
Unknown
because that that feels like the biggest gas chasm across the US in the UK, isn't it? The maternity rights, paternity rights, shared parental leave policies that that we have? The US still has some way to go in terms of providing that entitlement and ensuring that support. What would you like to see?
00:24:17:04 - 00:24:39:03
Unknown
well, I, you know, I read in the book, you know, it's 1 in 4 mothers in the United States, you know, new, new mothers have to return to work within two weeks of, of giving birth. You know, when I, when I shared that statistic, you know, a year ago across the UK, there was always sort of a, a collective gasp in the room.
00:24:39:05 - 00:25:16:16
Unknown
And I, you know, I had to explain that that wasn't you know, that's not universally the case. There are certainly parents who work in, you know, more professional roles potentially, you know, that have access to much more robust kinds of paid family leave, but that, you know, chances are, if you you know, if you are working, you know, in a, in a low wage sort of sort of job, chances are good that you're not going to be taking six months or a year off from work to, you know, to be with your with your new baby.
00:25:16:18 - 00:25:49:00
Unknown
You know, the questions that I continue to raise about that are at what cost, right. Certainly there's a certainly there's a cost to not going back into the into the workforce. But you know, when when secure attachment, for example, which undergirds our lifelong psychological health, is interrupted during during infancy. You know, what what are the what are the long term costs and implications of of that?
00:25:49:05 - 00:26:28:13
Unknown
And so I think it's you know, you're absolutely right that we we have a long way to go to, to catch up even with the policies on, you know, on on that particular point with the UK. But it's a, it's a conversation that I think that we need to have, you know, along with that, by the way, is and I and I think you're, you're in a little different place from us, but I, you know, we have this ongoing debate in the US around, you know, do we do we support, you know, only only child care or do we support families who might like to be at home with their with their babies?
00:26:28:13 - 00:26:59:02
Unknown
We know that. You know, in the US, roughly two thirds of young children live in a household where all of the available adults participate full time in the workforce. So these these out-of-home programs are obviously very important, these classroom based programs. What we don't know, though, is for how many families do they want that to be the case as opposed to, you know, is this just sort of the financial reality that they're they're dealing with right now?
00:26:59:02 - 00:27:25:16
Unknown
And so I, you know, not only would love to see us move to definitely much more robust forms of paid family leave, you know, accessible to everyone independent of whether or not you know, your your employer chooses to offer those those strong benefits. But also looking at, you know, what we what we might do to better incentivize families who want to want to stay at home.
00:27:25:16 - 00:28:02:13
Unknown
If, for example, we, you know, the money that we would provide in terms of a subsidy for them to attend an out of home child care program, you know, that that money is not probably life changing from a enrichment standpoint for your family, but it may just be enough that you know that for a year that a, you know, a new mom or dad or some combination of the two switching off, but, you know, within the year might be able to make ends meet and, you know, put off enrolling their child for the, you know, the first year of life, for example.
00:28:02:15 - 00:28:38:05
Unknown
Yeah, I think it's a very interesting debate. And trade officers say the financing is only just one element where we need to think about a family as a collective. I guess an other question that comes in is, and we touched on it earlier, is how do you make sure that for parents who are in kind of severe economic difficulty, maybe disadvantaged communities where there isn't a great community center on their doorstep, or there aren't high quality daycares or childminders or or people that can look after their children?
00:28:38:06 - 00:29:00:21
Unknown
How can we make sure that that opportunity is spread more evenly across places like England, across places like the US, and the different states that you work in? What measures have you seen be successful in really targeting support for those families on low income or operating in very challenging communities? What works best there?
00:29:01:00 - 00:29:37:16
Unknown
Yeah. I wish I could tell you that we have we have solved that. And, you know, don't don't suffer from very much the same set of challenges in a lot of ways. I do think, though, that this this comes down again to that whole sort of crisis of understanding that, you know, that that families and policymakers are just not fully grasping the importance of the of the early years, and that what that translates to is, you know, a question about how we respect and how we compensate the the programs, the workforce that that provides these services.
00:29:37:17 - 00:30:07:03
Unknown
We talk a lot in the US about the child care being what economists would call a broken market, and that it just doesn't, you know, it doesn't respond in the same way as that other industries do to the kind of free market economics here, in part because it is such a broken and precarious sort of financial model, right, that it's it's incredibly costly to provide.
00:30:07:05 - 00:30:30:20
Unknown
So it is, you know, it's costing, you know, parents and arm and a leg and, you know, more than their housing cost, more than they're more than, you know, in state university tuition in a lot of cases. At the same time, it is completely unprofitable for those who, you know, the businesses parents, I think, often think, well, I'm, you know, I'm paying a ton.
00:30:30:20 - 00:30:57:09
Unknown
These these child care business owners must just be raking in cash, you know, hand over fist. And, you know, the reality is that many of them are struggling even to keep their doors open from, from week to week. And the, you know, the whole sort of sad thing is, is subsidized on the backs of a workforce that is, you know, paid as we, as we discussed, less than, than dog walkers.
00:30:57:11 - 00:31:26:11
Unknown
And so I think, you know, if we if we begin from a place of is this important and, you know, how might we try to compensate these programs commensurately? You know, I think we would start to see that that market change, right, that, you know, there, there you're absolutely right that there are places where there aren't lots of child minders, where there aren't lots of programs.
00:31:26:16 - 00:31:41:12
Unknown
If that became a more lucrative proposition, then I suspect we would we would see that, see that change. But it all comes down, I think, again, to just recognizing the the critical importance of the of the early
00:31:41:14 - 00:31:46:18
Unknown
and what is it and you're obviously very powerful speaker on this topic.
00:31:46:20 - 00:32:13:17
Unknown
Politicians, you know, you say they're understanding the science. People get the the neuroscience around brain development. There's more and more evidence there. People understand the economics. They go, you know, we need this measure to help productivity, but we also want to help a child's outcomes so that when they're in the education system, their job prospects are greater. All of these types of things, the evidence is there globally that this is a good thing to invest in.
00:32:13:19 - 00:32:32:03
Unknown
What is it that the politicians say to you, whether it's behind closed doors or whether it's in kind of an open forum, they're worried about how much this would cost to fix or they worried about losing votes. So they worried about other things that perhaps are higher priority. What is it that really stops people
00:32:32:07 - 00:32:59:08
Unknown
I think you I think you've you've hit on it in the, in the question what I'm hearing increasingly from policymakers and I think we've done a, we've done a reasonably good job of getting the brain science out there. Right? I've had so many really gratifying conversations with policymakers who have sort of confessed to me like, look, I, I'm not sure I always understood this very well, but I get it now.
00:32:59:09 - 00:33:14:18
Unknown
Like, I understand why this is important from the from the brain science perspective. And their question is, you know, I just don't know how to pay for it. And, you know, my consistent answer to them, both in the book and in person is
00:33:15:00 - 00:33:22:05
Unknown
we are already paying for the system that we need for for children and families in this country.
00:33:22:08 - 00:33:47:21
Unknown
We're just doing it, frankly, in all of the dumbest possible ways, right, that we are funding. You know, we have more costly education system than we need to because of, you know, the need for remediation and retention and special education programs that we're paying more for social services than we would otherwise. We're paying more for health care costs.
00:33:47:22 - 00:34:19:03
Unknown
We seem to be as content to fund more prisons than to fund, you know, interventions that have been shown over and over to help to mitigate the need for that, right, that we know that high quality early childhood experiences result in fewer interactions with the criminal justice system, with less in the way of incarceration. So we're, you know, we're paying for all the wrong things rather than paying proactively to, you know, what?
00:34:19:03 - 00:34:28:03
Unknown
I what I believe is a comparatively small, if not tiny cost to get things right in the first place.
00:34:28:05 - 00:34:31:19
Unknown
And I guess, you know, the UK, we've got a new prime minister
00:34:31:22 - 00:34:37:06
Unknown
a brand new education secretary to what would you like the two of them?
00:34:37:06 - 00:34:50:18
Unknown
If one of our civil servants put your book in their red box to read over the weekend? What message would you like them to think about taking from what you've learned in the US and applying it in England?
00:34:50:20 - 00:35:20:15
Unknown
Yeah, that's a great question. And I would say, George, I, I had the I had the funny experience when I was over in the UK last year of speaking in Manchester and was introduced in part by the mayor of, of Manchester at this, at this event and was so frankly was, you know, just delighted to hear this person who as an American, I had no idea, frankly, who he was at the at the time.
00:35:20:15 - 00:35:44:12
Unknown
But he spoke very eloquently about the, you know, the, the needs of young children and families there in Manchester, the needs of the workforce, I mean, really impressed me as someone who kind of got the got the topic and lo and behold, is your new your new prime minister. And so that that is, that is not a, not a political endorsement.
00:35:44:12 - 00:35:45:10
Unknown
That's
00:35:45:12 - 00:35:49:10
Unknown
No. But yeah, I hope he was listening during your keynote at least then.
00:35:49:10 - 00:36:11:13
Unknown
was, but it was it was very, very interesting to hear Andy Burnham speak about about young children and in Manchester. And he really impressed me, at least in that, in that regard. You know what I would say? And, you know, a couple of the big lessons of the book, I think really do apply, though, to the UK and the context right now.
00:36:11:14 - 00:36:34:22
Unknown
I mean, one of the things that we have found in the, in the US is, you know, we talked earlier a little bit about kind of the distinction between is this a service that is designed to promote workforce participation. Is this a service that really takes the needs, the developmental needs of young children into account. And hopefully it's hopefully it's both.
00:36:35:00 - 00:37:23:20
Unknown
But I think, you know, what we have found is even in even in instances where states or policymakers might take a slightly more simplistic kind of workforce focused approach there, that those sorts of expansions are much easier said than done and that they and that they take time. Right, that it's and, you know, if you think about sort of the supply and demand side, what I think I have seen over and over in the US is that, you know, you can try to sort of juice the demand all you want from a policy perspective, right, that there are a number of states that have said or said, you know, with with temporary funding during Covid,
00:37:23:21 - 00:38:13:01
Unknown
we're going to we're going to put 5000 more families into, you know, provide subsidies, child care subsidies to to 5000 more families. And, you know, they budgeted for it, for example. And, you know, the funds were there. What wasn't there, though, were the classrooms and the and the teachers. And so, you know, it's it's not enough simply to have this conversation on the demand side and assume that in a, you know, a relatively unprofitable space, that the market is just going to spring into action and say, oh, there's all these, all these people now that want a service that is incredibly costly and difficult and low profit to provide and, and expect that that's going
00:38:13:02 - 00:38:54:08
Unknown
to, you know, meet the meet the increased demand. So I think, you know, we have to we have to look at simultaneously how to build that supply and how to make sure that that supply is really what we want from a quality perspective. Right. That we have teachers who are well trained and well compensated and, you know, using practices that have been shown to be effective, that otherwise, you know, the sort of the best laid plans and the the best intended policies can have really major unforeseen kind of pitfalls, if you will.
00:38:54:11 - 00:39:17:18
Unknown
That takes more than one politician. And I share your kind of optimism and hope around, you know, Andy Burnham and coming in as prime minister and he's got a track record of saying great things about early years and worked with people that were involved in the short start program. So, yeah, cautiously optimistic. But the reality is politicians in general have short life cycles.
00:39:17:18 - 00:39:52:20
Unknown
We're seeing that here in the UK, a very frequent turnover, but also in the US. I know that, you know, short term cycles between midterms and everything else to try and enact the sorts of change that you've just described takes a lifetime, takes a decade, takes, you know, an entire professional career. How do we make sure that these things don't become initiatives that get spearheaded by 1 or 2 enlightened sort of politicians in a short term, but actually are sustained over a decade, over multiple years.
00:39:52:20 - 00:40:26:08
Unknown
One of the other guests that I've spoken to sort of goes that this needs to be independent of the political decision making framework. It needs to be something that is run outside of that time frame. The reality is that might be really hard to achieve given the importance and how much money it costs. How would you like to make sure that we see kind of ring fenced prioritization of the early years and that long term infrastructure that starts from, as you say, training and recruitment of high quality people and building out the spaces that are needed.
00:40:26:10 - 00:41:01:10
Unknown
Yeah, that's a really important question. And I don't I you know, I appreciate the idea that it needs to be outside of the political process. In reality, I know that's very difficult to to accomplish, but my dream for this is that, you know, maybe it's maybe it's not outside, but maybe it really transcends the the political process. And that's why I have been so passionate about, you know, sort of public education around, you know, just again, I feel like a broken record here.
00:41:01:10 - 00:41:30:01
Unknown
But, you know, just the education around why these earliest months of life truly matter so much that they, you know, they matter to children, they matter to those children's families, but they matter to all of the rest of us. And, you know, this isn't a, you know, a conservative or a liberal opinion. This is this is a human issue more than it is a political issue.
00:41:30:01 - 00:42:15:06
Unknown
And it is something that not only should we be able to get behind on a nonpartisan or nonpolitical basis, but I think the best evidence available to us is that that's already how voters see this, you know, that it's, you know, I sort of jokingly reference in the in the book, George, some of the polling on early childhood education, that is I mean, it's, you know, if as divide at a time as I feel like we live in, you know, to see a poll where it says, you know, 95% of all voters say, you know, they would support expanded investment and something you you kind of look at it literally like, you know, is this
00:42:15:08 - 00:42:53:06
Unknown
is this a real thing? This is this looks like the, you know, the approval polling that, you know, like third world dictators release about themselves because, you know, you just don't see you don't see polling with that level of, of support. But I, I think the, you know, the polling shows here that that the early years have transcended politics and that it is an issue that, you know, on, on both the right and the left, the elected leaders can feel comfortable maybe, maybe in some cases for different reasons, but but can feel very comfortable getting behind.
00:42:53:10 - 00:42:59:20
Unknown
Oh, hopefully we can, you know, harness the alignment that you have and the positive momentum that we have here as well.
00:42:59:22 - 00:43:23:14
Unknown
As you say, I think the reality is everyone understands that this is vital for our long term societal cohesion and also economic outcomes and a whole range of different positive impacts that it has. It's just about making sure that it keeps being prioritized by transfers and people with the money to to invest in
00:43:23:16 - 00:43:46:18
Unknown
And to that to that particular point, though, I think it's you know, I've worked with enough policymakers, I've worked across enough different administrations to know that every one of them is going to have its sort of unique focus, right, that there are there are leaders who are more focused on economic issues and some that are more focused on social issues.
00:43:46:18 - 00:44:23:05
Unknown
And, you know, that it would be very hard in any area of public policy to expect that, that every administration is going to have the same level of interest and focus on any particular issue. But I think the the way to accomplish that is really to make sure that that is the case for the people, right? That, as you know, if if the public demands it and voters demand it, then I think that's that's really the key to making sure it will be a priority no matter who's who's in control.
00:44:23:10 - 00:44:46:01
Unknown
Brilliant. Dan, I'm going to pivot slightly to some sort of quickfire questions, if that's okay. If you've got time, we've got a couple here, a book that obviously apart from your own that's really shaped how you think about early childhood. Lots of people off on summer holidays here in Europe. What is the book that you'd put on our reading list?
00:44:46:03 - 00:45:30:00
Unknown
Oh gosh. That's a that's a that's like asking what my what my favorite song is as much as I've much as I've read the one that that I think, I don't know that I would with apologist or I don't know if I'd describe it as like my favorite of all time, but maybe my favorite right now is a brand new book that my friend and colleague Dana Suskind, who wrote, actually, the introduction to my book has put out, it's called Human Raised, and it is about the the question and the threats of, of AI to, to young children and their and their development and cautions around, around all of that.
00:45:30:00 - 00:45:40:15
Unknown
So I would definitely, you know, that's the one that springs to mind right this minute is maybe, maybe the most recent thing I've read, but one that that really challenged by thinking.
00:45:40:16 - 00:45:56:03
Unknown
yeah, sounds sounds great. What's the most surprising thing that you've learned through your work across schools, through founding the Early Childhood Policy Solutions Network? What's what's really surprised you?
00:45:56:05 - 00:46:23:01
Unknown
What has really surprised me. I mean, just the thing that pops to mind immediately is the maybe the disconnect between the way I think of the early childhood workforce and the ways that in some cases, I think the the public and maybe even the workforce itself in some cases thinks of itself in terms of importance. And I'll give you an example of that.
00:46:23:01 - 00:46:51:21
Unknown
I was I was speaking recently outside of the US and was told that, you know, that I'd have an audience primarily of of educators, which is not unusual in my, you know, the conversations that there may be some people who who are parents, who know my work from social media, who would show up. So I asked, you know, in the opening, just to sort of get a sense of how many of these people were were educators.
00:46:51:22 - 00:47:13:08
Unknown
I, you know, I asked how many of them were there as just because they were parents and familiar with my content. And, you know, only only 1 or 2 hands went up, I think. And I said, well, so how many of you are teachers? And not a single hand went up in the room and I said, oh, well, that's, you know, are you in the right place?
00:47:13:08 - 00:47:40:01
Unknown
If you're not a parent or you know, who who are you and why are you? Why are you here? And the issue was that I had used the word teacher and that, you know, in in that particular context, I forget exactly what the term in this case was. I know in the UK, I heard a lot about the distinction between teachers and early childhood practitioners, for example.
00:47:40:03 - 00:48:05:21
Unknown
And so, you know, I guess the the lesson in all of this was how I think as a field, we need to claim appropriate titles for the people who work with young children and, you know, treat and uplift them and, and help them to see themselves, frankly, as the, you know, the critical educators they are.
00:48:05:23 - 00:48:18:19
Unknown
And if you have one piece of advice, you spoke about your journey of fatherhood as well, one piece of advice for a new parent that you'd like to share or give for any that are listening.
00:48:18:21 - 00:48:26:06
Unknown
So many. But I you know, I would I would say that, you know, don't
00:48:26:08 - 00:48:58:00
Unknown
don't believe that because your baby is small, there aren't incredibly important things happening. I think it's, you know, sometimes easy to look at this, you know, very, very tiny, still non-verbal, at least from a conventional sense, new human and assume that that there's a period of waiting right until they're ready to start, you know, learning and speaking and all of those things.
00:48:58:00 - 00:49:02:00
Unknown
And the reality couldn't be further from the truth that
00:49:02:00 - 00:49:29:20
Unknown
your baby is learning before they ever enter the world. They come in as expert observers. They are watching your face and reading your facial expressions to gauge not only your mood, but their safety in an individual moment that they are watching the movement of your lips and your mouth and your tongue and trying to decipher how do I do the same
00:49:29:20 - 00:49:30:03
Unknown
thing?
00:49:30:03 - 00:49:42:15
Unknown
How do I, you know, how does she make those wonderful sounds that that come out of her mouth? And so, you know, the language development is is happening early and actively
00:49:42:17 - 00:50:00:05
Unknown
and just not to overlook the importance of of the the earliest months, even before you've ever met your baby, because they really are sort of helping to set the trajectory for a long and hopefully fulfilling life.
00:50:00:08 - 00:50:14:11
Unknown
I love that. What a great note to close on. Dan, thank you so much for joining us today and for the conversation and for all the work that you do. And yeah, look forward to reading your friend's book and seeing what's next for you as well.
00:50:14:13 - 00:50:17:08
Unknown
Great. Well, thank you so much for the invitation. That's been a
00:50:17:10 - 00:50:42:07
Unknown
Talking to Dan, what strikes me is that so much of this comes down to a simple act of honesty. Admitting that childcare has always been around early education, whether we've chosen to treat it like that or not. And it's a frame that matters just as much here in the UK as it does in the US. We need to think about not just economic productivity, but really high quality spaces and childcare.
00:50:42:08 - 00:51:03:23
Unknown
Early education professionals being elevated and treated as professionals that they are doing amazing work. Thank you for listening to. Best beginnings A Baby's Own podcast. For more evidence informed support on babies in the early years, subscribe to this channel. If you found it helpful, please share it with someone who might need it. We'll see you next time.
00:51:04:01 - 00:51:04:08
Unknown
We.