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When people think about nuclear, they often think about nuclear waste, or by-products. But when it comes to nuclear by-products, myths are more common than facts. On a mission to set the record straight, host Osama Baig is joined by two nuclear by-product experts.
Meet the people from Ontario and beyond who have made it their mission to combat climate change. From energy production to emerging technologies, listen in on conversations about what the path to net-zero looks like here in Canada, and abroad.
The Climate Challengers | Season 2 E6 | Nuclear Waste Mythbusting | Transcript
[00:02] Osama Baig: On this episode of The Climate Challengers.
[00:05] Nuala Zietsma: So if you were to take all used fuel in Canada, all across Canada, the total amount of used fuel would fill nine hockey rinks, from the bottom of the ice to the top of the boards.
[00:16] Erik Kremer: No, there have been no accidents resulting in harm to people in the environment due to release of radioactivity.
[00:23] Nuala Zietsma: So you would need about 3500 wind turbines to generate the same amount of electricity that comes from Darlington Station.
[00:30] Erik Kremer: There is a clear scientific consensus that each large repositories offer the best solution for the safe long-term management used nuclear fuel.
[00:42] Osama Baig: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Climate Challengers. My name is Osama Baig, and when I'm not hosting The Climate Challengers, I'm an innovation lead at the Center for Canadian Nuclear Sustainability, as well as the host of a YouTube channel dedicated to simplifying nuclear technologies by demystifying them. So as you can imagine, I'm quite passionate about nuclear.
[01:02] And today we are going to talk all things nuclear waste. Now, one of the biggest criticisms we hear about nuclear power comes down to waste or what we in the nuclear industry call byproducts. And while it is true that nuclear power produces byproducts, it also produces enormous volumes of zero emissions electricity that power our homes, businesses and increasingly our vehicles.
[01:25] In the fight against climate change, this is huge. Without nuclear, we would not be able to replace oil and gas and electrify our lives in one generation, which is how urgently we need to move to keep temperatures from rising too quickly. The problem is that in the past, the nuclear industry hasn't always done a great job of explaining its byproducts. In this vacuum, myths have taken place facts and that has created pockets of nuclear hesitancy among the public that could threaten our progress in tackling climate change.
[01:55] The fact is that nuclear power is the only energy source that accounts for the entire lifecycle of its energy inputs. So on today's show, we are going to investigate the most popular myths about nuclear byproducts and begin to set the record straight. To help me do that, my first guest is Nuala Zietsma. Nuala is the Director of Strategy and Stakeholder Relations for the Nuclear Sustainable City Services Division of OPG.
[02:21] Osama Baig: Nuala, thanks for being here and welcome to The Climate Challengers.
[02:24] Nuala Zietsma: You know what? Thanks so much for having me on the podcast today. And I just wanted to say and I'm being truthful here, I'm a big fan of your YouTube channel. You have a knack for simplifying and really demystifying all topics related to nuclear energy. And I watched the last one last night, actually.
[02:41] Osama Baig: Oh, thank you. Happy you're keeping up with the videos and really excited to have you on because you are a nuclear waste expert. And a lot of folks in the general public have a lot of misconceptions when it comes to nuclear waste. And a question that is asked to me and to a lot of folks in the nuclear industry is what is the myth that's out there, is like what is radiation and is radiation only produced in nuclear reactors?
[03:13] Nuala Zietsma: Yeah, no, great question. And there is a lot of myths out there or there are a lot of myths out there that we have to demystify. So radiation can be found all around us. Radiation is in our soils, it's in our air, it's in our water. It's in us. It's in a lot of the materials that we build our houses with.
[03:32] And because it's colorless and it's odorless, it's really difficult to see it. So it creates those myths. But radiation is radiation. So you have this natural radiation, which is mostly radon and then you have radiation that comes from space. So it's that cosmic radiation. And then you have the manmade radiation, for example, nuclear energy. So Brazil nuts and bananas have an incredibly high amount of radiation, for example.
[04:00] And to give you some context. So I've been working in the nuclear energy sector for 20 years. I started as an engineer in the nuclear Pickering Nuclear Generating Station, and I've received a total of six milligram total radiation of my career. So if you were to take a flight from Los Angeles to Paris, there and back so roundtrip, you would get about ten milligrams of radiation from that flight alone.
[04:27] So you can only imagine all those Hollywood celebrities flying from Los Angeles to Paris and all the film festivals and all those CEOs flying around the world getting all that cosmic radiation, which is more than even what I got in the 20 years of working in a nuclear industry.
[04:43] Osama Baig: That's incredible Nuala. So 20 years working day in and day out within the nuclear power plant. And you got almost half the amount of radiation as compared to a few hours flight.
[04:57] Nuala Zietsma: Yeah. Isn't it pretty remarkable? Yeah.
[05:00] Osama Baig: Yeah, that's absolutely incredible. And when it comes to waste, what is nuclear waste? Right. So I think you did a great job explaining what radiation is and it's everywhere. We can't see it. We can't hear it. We can't taste it. But what does it mean when it comes to nuclear waste? What is that?
[05:20] Nuala Zietsma: Yeah. So you have to think of it that every industry produces waste. And by waste, we mean something that you have no more use for. So for the nuclear industry, that waste is radioactive. So it just means we have to handle it differently. So like you said, you can't see it. And as humans, we want to see things.
[05:39] We want to touch them, we want to taste them as you said, and we want to use all those senses to understand them. So my kids, I have four kids in elementary school and they do a lot of experiments with water. They can see what happens when it's wet, when it freezes, when it goes in the kettle and they can see the steam, they can touch it.
[05:58] So we learn a lot through our senses and for nuclear waste, the unfortunate thing is we have seen it. We've seen it on TV. We've seen it as the glowing green goo in The Simpsons. And those images have really helped create these myths. And unfortunately, they're all false. And unfortunately, Osama The Simpsons lied to you. So nuclear energy does produce a small amount of waste.
[06:28] And it's classified according to the radioactivity and the containment that we need to put it in. So there's three types of waste. There's low level waste. There's intermediate level waste, and then there's the high-level waste. And I don't know if you know this but 98% of the nuclear waste in Canada is classified as low-level waste. And actually, 95% of that low level waste is soil from legacy, projects and historical, older historical sites.
[06:59] So at OPG, we do have all those three levels of waste and low-level waste is lightly contaminated items such as workers garments. So when they go into the reactor building, they're wearing protective clothing, gloves. It's paper, it's small equipment or are small tools that they use in the reactor building. And then the intermediate level waste are the resins or filters that are used in the reactors to purify the water systems.
[07:30] And then the high-level waste is that spent fuel and it's the fuel. And in CANDU, it's uranium dioxide. And the fuel is placed into fuel bundles. And after the fuel bundles are used there, it's called spent fuel. It comes out of the reactor and they're placed in storage in water. And it's placed in these wet storage containers which are basically big pools. And then they're placed in dry storage containers and stored on site.
[07:58] And another really great thing about the waste. You're an engineer, right? Yeah. And I could go on and on about all the statistics. Like I just said, all the amount that's there, how it's safely stored and all the elements, periodic table elements that we could discuss. But the most interesting thing about all of that is that it's all accounted for.
[08:20] So it's all characterized. It's all classified. It's all safely controlled. It's managed and it's stored, and it's all fully funded. So every single ounce of it is accounted for, it's funded, and we know where it is and it's managed safely.
[08:35] Osama Baig: So tell me a bit about nuclear fuel bundles. What do they look like and how long can they produce power before they become nuclear byproducts?
[08:43] Nuala Zietsma: So the fuel's uranium dioxide. And so there's these fuel pellets that are really small. They're about the size of a penny and about the size of your fingertips. And these fuel pellets are placed in these long tubes. And these tubes, multiple tubes are placed together and they create a bundle, kind of like a fireplace log.
[09:07] That's how they kind of look and size and shape. The long tubes are bundled together to make this fuel bundle. And the fuel bundles are then placed in I guess-- these really long fuel channels. And at Darlington, there's four reactors and each reactor has about 480 fuel channels. So each channel has about 13 fuel bundles in each channel.
[09:32] So there's just over 6000 fuel bundles in the reactor. And that's what's creating that, that great electricity that we like. So the fuel bundle stays in the reactor for about 18 months. So every day or every shift, they're changing out these fuel bundles so the operators are refueling, and they're strategically selecting fuel channels and then inserting new fuel bundles into those fuel channels.
[09:58] Osama Baig: Okay. Okay. Interesting. So one bundle last 18 months, which is around a year and a half. And I'm sure it produces a lot of energy. Yeah, I wish my tank of gas actually lasted a year and a half.
[10:15] Nuala Zietsma: Yeah. Can you imagine that?
[10:18] Osama Baig: So another popular myth about nuclear waste is that there is just so much of it. So tell us how much nuclear waste is there in Ontario?
[10:27] Nuala Zietsma: Well, I'm going to give you an even kind of bigger analogy just to show you how small the amount of waste is for nuclear. So if you were to take all these fuel in Canada, all across Canada, the total amount of used fuel would fill nine hockey rinks from the bottom of the ice to the top of the boards.
[10:47] And it's because nuclear energy has that really high energy density. So you don't need as much materials for the same amount of energy that you would need from other sources, which means a significant less amount of waste. So I'm sure you've heard this. If you were to take all your energy needs from nuclear power so your entire lifetime supply of those uranium pellets, again, which are about the size of your fingertips, the lifetime supply that you would need would fit into a popcorn.
[11:19] And so if you compare that to other energy sources like a fossil fuel like coal, so for a person or household per year, you're looking at about equivalent of 700 pounds of coal for the same amount of electricity that you would produce from nuclear. So there is such a small amount of waste from nuclear energy for the same amount of energy that's produced from these other sources.
[11:43] Osama Baig: Perhaps the biggest myth of all is that there is no safe way to store nuclear byproducts. How are nuclear byproducts stored in Ontario? And how can we be sure that they are being stored safely?
[11:57] Nuala Zietsma: Yeah, this is a huge myth. And again, The Simpsons lied to you, Osama. So first of all, it's stored safely not only in Ontario but all over the world. So at OPG, we've been storing nuclear waste for five decades. There's never been a release of radiation or harm to any of our employees, to any of the public or any of the environment.
[12:21] Or any of the environment ever. The reason is we just aren't exposed to it. Again, like scientists, there's a lot of smart people in nuclear industry and physicists and chemist. So scientists have analyzed the fundamental chemistry and the makeup of all these materials. So we know exactly what type of packaging each material needs. We also know what kind of building it needs to be stored end.
[12:48] And we also know the kind of protective shielding that we need when we're handling it. And we know the different radiation needs different shielding. So for example, we talked about the fuel bundles and they're removed from the reactor, and they're placed in large pools. And that's what we call wet storage. So these pools are really what you would picture a pool to be.
[13:09] So you walk in, there's a big pool. But the water in this pool is enough to shield the fuel bundles that are coming right out of the reactor. So you can walk right up to that pool, you can walk around the pool and you'll be wearing protective clothing that you do on a standard construction site. So you have your hard hat, your goggles, your gloves, your safety boots.
[13:29] But you don't need any extra protection from the radiation because the water is shielding it. Then after several years, the fuel bundles lose a good chunk of the radioactivity in the heat. So they're moved to dry storage containers. So when that's placed in a dry storage container, it's placed in a building and you can walk up and down the aisles of all these dry storage container buildings. Sorry, you can walk up and down the aisle with all the dry storage containers.
[13:58] And it's completely safe and shielded. And you can spend all day and all night there. And I've been there. I've been to our facilities that have these rows of these dry storage containers, and you can walk right up to them. And then for the lower-level waste. So low-level waste again, it's like those workers garments, papers, small tools.
[14:17] It's sorted and segregated just like you do at home. So you have your green bin, your recycling bin, and then you have your garbage bin. And then depending on the type of material it goes and wet bin, it can be processed. So at OPG, our ultimate goal would be waste minimization. So everything we're doing within my division, particularly the Nuclear Sustainability Services, is to reduce the amount of volumes that we have and ultimately reduce our environmental footprint.
[14:47] So we go in to each of those bins and we pull out the material to process them. So we have some great technology that we use. We use compaction which as you can imagine, it's compacts down the waste to make it really small. And we also have our own incinerator. So incinerators like a big furnace. So to give you an idea of the amount of waste that you can incinerate.
[15:11] So if you had 40 bags kind of garbage bag size of low-level waste, again those worker garments, small tools and what have you, papers, gloves. So there's 40 bags of those. Once it goes through the incinerator, there'll be one bag left and the bag will be full of ash, similar to like a fireplace ash. So this processing technique really reduces and minimizes the volumes that are stored. So we incinerate a lot of our waste through our own incinerator.
[15:42] Osama Baig: Okay. That's good to know. And what happens to that waste once it's incinerated? Where is it stored?
[15:49] Nuala Zietsma: So after it's minimized to a much smaller amount, it's stored at our Western facility up in nuclear sustainability services and our Western facility. The lower-level waste is--
[16:01] Osama Baig: One myth about nuclear byproducts that is perpetuated is that they are a really bad choice for meeting our energy needs. But let's talk about how nuclear energy stacks up against waste produced by other forms of energy production. So can you tell us a little bit more about a comparison between the impacts of nuclear energy to that of other common energy sources?
[16:22] Nuala Zietsma: Yeah. As we've heard, combating climate change crisis is going to require, like you said, every tool in clean energy toolbox. So from wind, solar, renewables, hydro, electric, and of course, nuclear. So nuclear supplying the most reliable and largest amount of clean energy. So nuclear has a much smaller landmass footprint, which frees up a lot of land for natural habitats and farming to generate the same amount of energy as nuclear.
[16:54] Solar needs about 100 times more landmass, and wind needs about 500 times more land mass. And as you know, the sun isn't always shining and the wind is blowing. So these other sources do not provide that baseload electricity that we need on those really cold days in the winter and all those really hot days in the summer. So you would need about 3500 wind turbines to generate the same amount of electricity that comes from Darlington Station.
[17:26] So if you could imagine a wind farm, 3500 wind turbines, it would probably be Toronto to Ottawa, that wind farm. It's massive. And for solar you would need scores of millions of solar panels to have the same amount of supply that you could get from the Darlington Generating Station. And I know your question was specifically about the waste.
[17:52] So again, all industries produce waste. So solar produces large amounts of toxic chemicals and the solar panels need to be replaced every 20 years. And wind also generates a lot of waste that needs to be disposed of, particularly the turbine blades. And again, they have a lifetime supply of 20 to 25 years and it's expected that I've read that about 720,000 blade material will need to be disposed of in the next 20 years.
[18:29] So 720,000 tons of blade material will be disposed of in the next 20 years for wind turbines. So another great thing about nuclear, I know I've been talking very highly of nuclear. Nuclear is the only industry that accounts and controls the entire lifecycle of the waste. And what does that mean? It's all accounted for. It's all safely managed. it's all controlled.
[18:55] It's all characterized and classified. We know where every ounce of it is. And the full waste stream, the full lifecycle is completely funded. So what does that mean? I know you've probably heard that it's fully funded. So this means that we've set aside money to cover the full lifecycle. So there's upfront investments now that are built in to the costs to make sure that we have funding for today's operations.
[19:19] We also have funding for disposal. And then we also have funding for the full decommissioning of all our sites. So this is something that is just not the case for any other energy source. Once after that 20 years lifetime span of a wind turbine or those solar panels, who knows where they go? They go somewhere and it's not up. In nuclear, we know exactly where it's going and it's been paid for.
[19:44] Osama Baig: Really had a great time having this conversation and learning a lot to myself. Thank you so much, Nuala, for you for joining us. Really appreciate your time.
[19:51] Nuala Zietsma: Great. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
[19:54] Osama Baig: To follow these byproducts on their journey from the reactor to long term storage, we will speak now with Erik Kremer. Erik is the section manager of siting safety and assessment for Nuclear Waste Management Organization. Erik, thank you for being here and welcome to the Climate Challengers. So, Erik, tell me a bit about the role of the NWMO or the Nuclear Waste Management Organization. Just what does it do?
[20:19] Erik Kremer: So the NWMO came into existence in 2002 out of active legislation, the Use of Nuclear Fuel Waste Act, which is an act of federal legislation. Our mandate is to propose and implement a long-term management approach for Canada's use nuclear fuel. And we need to do that in a way that ensures the safety of people and the environment, isolate and contain Canada's use of nuclear fuel.
[20:53] And to do so in a way that is acceptable to the public, hosted by a willing and informed host community and also the First Nation, 80 indigenous communities that are partnering with across the region.
[21:12] Osama Baig: That's great. I think these are some significant tasks that they NWMO is taking on. And it's great to know that they're implementing these solutions for spent nuclear fuel. So have there been any accidents in spent nuclear fuel in Ontario or North America?
[21:28] Erik Kremer: No, there have been no accidents resulting in harm to people in the environment due to release of radioactivity. And that's after decades of operating and transportation experience.
[21:43] Osama Baig: So, Erik, tell me internationally, what are some of the best practices for storing spent nuclear fuel?
[21:48] Erik Kremer: So simply put, following decades of international research and development and cooperation, there is a clear scientific consensus that each large repositories offer the best solution for the safe long-term management used nuclear fuel. We in Canada have chosen it each year for our used nuclear fuel. So have, I believe, all countries in the world that produce use nuclear fuel as a part of their power utilities.
[22:25] They have all chosen the geologic repository as their long-term management approach. Few really good examples where we are actually really benefiting from the work that they've completed. So one would be the program in Sweden which is led [22:43] is the organizations name. Also in Finland, that organization is [22:49]. So both of those countries, there are programs for developing deep source repositories are ahead of ours in terms of licensing, in terms of construction. And we work really closely with those organizations.
[23:08] Osama Baig: Can you tell me what inspires you to be a climate challenge day to day in regards to your work? How is that connected with combating climate change? And also what really inspires you in this regards?
[23:22] Erik Kremer: Well, I think right off the top, I can say this project is important to our climate because it's supporting a solution to management of a waste byproduct of nuclear power generation. So I'd say there's a very direct and immediate relationship to safeguard our climate state over the long term. For me personally, I mean, I'm a family guy.
[23:50] I've got a wife and five kids. And it's such an important thing being able to think about where our climate, where our environment is today. Its health and the long-term sustainability of our communities, of our lifestyles. And having that being an intrinsic part of the work that I do. It’s very meaningful.
[24:26] Osama Baig: Absolutely. Definitely. I think this has been a great conversation, Erik. Really, really appreciate your time and insight, exceptional insight into this topic of DGR and disposal of spent nuclear fuel.
[24:45] Erik Kremer: Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for allowing me to talk about my work. I love talking about my work. I love my work. And it's been very nice having this conversation with you today. Thanks again.
[24:58] Osama Baig: I want to thank both of my guests today, Nuala Zietsma and Erik Kremer for a great discussion about how the nuclear industry manages its byproducts. It is clear we have a lot of work still to do to educate the public, but it is also clear that the nuclear industry understands that this is its moment. With climate change accelerating, we need nuclear to play a leading role in lowering our emissions.
[25:19] And to do that, we need to be transparent and forthcoming about the byproducts that are created and how they are safely handled and stored. To learn more about nuclear byproducts, please visit climatechallengers.com. This is Osama Baig. Thanks for listening.
The Climate Challengers podcast tech is managed by Podium Podcast Production [https://www.podiumpodcastco.com/]