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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: Hi, Tom.
Good morning.
Speaker 2: Hey Paul.
Good morning.
How you doing?
Speaker: Doing well.
I'm excited to.
Get back into chapter
eight, book eight here.
Speaker 2: Book, book eight.
Yeah.
Do we wanna do any small talk?
I feel like on our last episode at the
beginning of the episode, we had a brief
reference to the concept that our tummies
were not feeling a hundred percent.
Oh yeah.
Especially mine.
Let's do tummy
Speaker: update.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
This is, whatever.
Not a fun podcast update necessarily,
but I just want, I want any
concerned listeners to know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Do tummy doing better?
I have a colonoscopy tomorrow.
Not super fun, but every
indication is I'll be okay.
I'm sure we'll have another
update on this next week.
So today I'm drinking a clear liquid
diet and I will be having some.
A fun night of prepping
for that procedure.
So I feel that is actually something
that might I, I wonder if something
about that might surface in our reading
of Marcus today, you were also having
some kind of tummy complaint oh.
Paul last week.
Speaker: Nowhere on the same level.
But I guess what happened
before the podcast started is.
I was, I like wanted to make a joke about
colonoscopies and what else are they gonna
check while they're up there or whatever.
Yeah.
And Tom's response was so sobering.
He was so detailed on exactly what
happens with colon cancer and how they'll
know and why he thinks it's unlikely.
Yeah.
It was just like a very, it, the, my
joke was not the it really did not land.
And
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: I feel old.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Or where Yes.
I've been feeling a bit old Yeah.
As well with all this going on,
but, again, I think that sets us
up nicely to read this philosophy.
And also I think when I get a
nice, what I'm expecting, which
is a bill of nice good health,
I'm gonna feel rejuvenated and
Speaker: yeah,
Speaker 2: happy.
So
Speaker: hang in there, Tom.
Don't, thanks.
Don't call it answer.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
I won't.
And I'll, I will update the listeners
who might be concerned, although
they're, by the time they hear
these episodes, it'll, this will
all be resolved, I think, anyway.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
With that fun introduction
out of the way, shall we?
Yeah, shall we?
Let's do it.
Read some Marcus and try not
to be too bleak about it.
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Okay.
We're in book eight, number 18.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What dies doesn't vanish.
It stays here in the world,
transformed, dissolved as parts of
the world and of view, which are
transformed in turn without grubbing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Wow.
It
Speaker 2: sounds like Marcus is
maybe grappling with some mortality.
Stuff that's certainly how I read this
Speaker: without grumbling
is a funny addition.
Yes.
That those seem, it's unnecessary.
Those seem to
Speaker 2: be like maybe the two, I read
those as the two, like the important part
of the thing basically, or that's the
part he's actually saying to himself.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah quit
grumbling, although, yeah.
It's a funny one like.
Yes.
The other thi parts of the world that
turns turn into that transform and
change, they don't seem to grumble
about it, but how would we know
if they were grumbling about it?
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 2: the whatever
rocks getting eroded to sand.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't.
It's weird to say without grumbling.
'cause there is grum, like
grumbling is such a low bar.
Yeah.
I think when you get killed,
you grumble a little, yeah.
You're like, yeah.
Yes.
Like that's you hit by a spear
and you weren't ready yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
You're gonna, you're gonna
grumble a little bit.
But it feels to me like he's
talking about, eh, yeah.
Okay.
Actually, I was gonna
say, he's talking about.
Non-living things, but you're
right, the first sentence
is what dies doesn't vanish.
Speaker: Yeah.
So he, he says okay, so what dies in
vanish, I guess like plants becomes Yeah.
Becomes part of you.
Yeah.
So he is then he's talking
about like stuff he eats and
then which are transformed in
turn, which is when he dies.
Yes.
Without grumbling.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
Some things that die, don't grumble.
I could get on board with him there.
Plants don't.
Obviously grumble when they die,
although who knows what's going
on in terms of their experience of
Speaker: Yeah, the world.
No, I feel okay, so you hear this,
sometimes there are animals that like
have no, have no societal, like benefit
from making noises when they're injured.
Oh, interesting.
Like there are animals that just if they
make noises more predators will come.
It's just gonna hurt them.
They just die silently.
Gazelle I think are one of those,
I say where like they'll, yeah.
A gazelle will get mauled, its leg
will get bitten off and it'll just
quietly sit there, go somewhere.
Yeah.
Whereas, as opposed to we're social
creatures, so so we It's actually weep.
Yeah.
We make noises so that our
compatriots can come and defend us.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I see.
That's interesting.
Speaker: And so it's actually, there's
like a good reason why we grumble.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
It'd
Speaker: be weird if we didn't like,
Speaker 2: yeah.
I, yes.
Okay.
I, that, that's interesting.
It's also making me think about
something I read recently about.
Something that I did not know which are
the difference in veterinary outcomes
for dogs and cats, basically, where
if you, I thought the vet, if you take
your animal to the vet, they had about
an, they did, they knew about equally
as much about cats and dogs and they
have about equally good outcomes.
That turns out not to be true at all.
If you go study to be a
veterinarian, the textbook you get.
Is about dogs and then cats are like,
you get a little addendum to the thing
that's here's what's different about cats.
But the basic model is a dog.
Interesting.
And part of that I think is for the
same reason where dogs, when they're
sick, they are more social creatures.
And they do a lot more they make it more
clear that they are sick, whereas cats
have this problem of they're such solitary
creatures that they often, it's much
harder to even tell when they're sick or.
Or whatever else.
So more
Speaker: cats just die
Speaker 2: more cats.
Yes.
And they're also just
understudied as a result.
Cats have this tendency to get
autoimmune disorders and stuff.
Yeah.
And super frequently we're just
like we don't know what that is.
And then you have to put your cat down.
Whereas with dogs, we like
understand the whole model more.
So anyway, that's just something that was
coming to mind for me that I think totally
goes along with what you're saying.
Speaker: Yeah, I have
every intention to grumble.
Speaker 2: Yes.
When my time
Speaker: comes.
Speaker 2: Yes.
So I agree with you there.
I think I am reading his grumbling,
his comment about grumbling here,
really about being something closer
to gratitude or like dissatisfaction
with the world or something like that.
Sure.
Where he's he's saying like the thing
he always says of like, when it's
your time, it's your time, and you
should accept that's a normal part of.
Ugh, the world.
And not
Speaker: yet though.
Come on.
Not yet.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: It,
Speaker: Yeah.
Is that how you feel, Tom?
Speaker 2: Right now in my life, no.
I'm not feeling like
that in my life at all.
I would certainly be grumbling if
I, if something happened to me.
Yes.
No I'm not, yes.
I cannot access the Yeah.
Truth of this.
I suspect Marcus can't totally
either, which is why he's Yeah.
Writing it down that this is he's
trying to persuade himself that even
though maybe he's got something going on
that makes him unhappy, he's trying to
persuade himself like, this is normal.
Quit.
Quit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yapping about it.
Speaker: I've said before that oh, like
I, you try to live life so that at any
point you're like I did a good job.
Yeah.
But I think something probably happens
when you're like actually oh gosh.
Like I guess that's it and then there's
a little moment where okay, hold on.
That's not fair.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Yes.
Absolutely.
I think for sure, and
Speaker: I, I.
Yes.
I'm all about fairness here.
Yes.
I want it to be, I want
my death to be fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Yes, unfortunately.
I think the thing you realize
in situations like that is that
it, it's not gonna be, yeah.
Speaker: It's also just
not my problem alone.
Any, like it's, yeah.
It's like really it's
grumbling for our loved ones.
Yes.
That,
Speaker 2: that is the thing that I
think about with, or like whatever
that gives me pause with this
philosophy in general at times.
That's true actually.
Yeah.
Is the like.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's so individualistic here.
That's true.
That's true.
But really the reason, yes, if we're sick
or whatever, our loved ones are sick.
We're sad for them, obviously,
or for whoever is sick.
Yeah.
Because they might die.
Yeah.
Or whatever.
They're at least suffering, but yeah.
There's also this feeling of
I, I might lose my loved one.
Yeah.
And Marcus doesn't really have much of an
acknowledgement for feelings like that.
Speaker: Dude, we've never
heard about Marcus's children.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: We heard spouse.
Yeah.
I think they were like entry number 18
in the first chapter where he was talking
about who he was grateful for 18th
Speaker: on the list.
Yeah.
It's
Speaker 2: after 17
philosophers or whatever.
Or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then.
Yes.
But yes, that is something we basically
never hear about, and it's a, yeah,
one of the biggest mismatches, I
think between, yeah the portrait that
we get of his life and the life I
recognize, that's a good point actually.
Yeah, so I still, we're sounding
very disagreeable with him right now.
I like this concept that we're, we do
not exist outside of natural processes.
Yeah.
We're made of star stuff,
et cetera, et cetera.
We just it's all recycled through us and
that is just yet another way in which life
and the world is constantly transforming.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
That's a nice, it's a nice thought.
Philosophical to some degree.
I don't know that
Speaker 2: it helps.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If it seems like he's trying
to comfort himself emotionally in a moment
of mor feeling his mortality or something.
I don't, it doesn't provide me a huge
amount of comfort in a moment like that.
Speaker: Yeah.
I, yeah.
Agreed.
I it's like the classic
if I die, she'll kill me.
Like kinda Yes.
Kinda joke,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker 2: Number 19.
Everything is here for a purpose.
From horses to vine shoots.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker 2: What's surprising about that?
Even the sun will tell you, I have a
purpose and the other gods as well.
And why were you born for pleasure?
See if that answer will
stand up to question.
Speaker: I love his
rhetorical for pleasure.
He loves that.
He always comes back to that for pleasure.
Yes.
Mere animal,
Speaker 2: mere pleasure.
Speaker: Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a classic negative.
Like he, he has a thing
that we weren't born for.
Yes.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker: mean, he's alluded to what we
were born for, which is fulfilling our
duty, which is, I guess that's fine.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Working with others, I
think, something around that phrase
that's phrase, working with others,
what he used in the last episode.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Which I, yes.
Speaker: So that whole thing is
implicit, like that our actual
purposes working for others.
Yeah.
But what he's talk, what he's
talking about is he's like
making fun of false purposes.
Yes.
Or he saying
Speaker 2: there.
He's creating like a little bit, or I
read this as he's creating this sort of
implicit dichotomy between you could live
for like humans' true purposes, and which
involves doing your duty and working
with others and et cetera, et cetera.
Or you can live like a hedonistic,
live like Epicurus or whatever,
where you're just interested in
Speaker: pleasure.
Yeah, pleasure.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I, what I think.
I guess my reaction to that from
sitting from my seat now is I
think that's a false dichotomy.
That I think like what he's
ignoring is that doing your
duty and working with others
Speaker: both Sure.
Can be
Speaker 2: a huge source of
pleasure to human beings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
And that, right?
Yes.
And that we can, as we do that,
have some of the pleasure that maybe
the hedonists would enjoy safely.
Speaker: And it's like deeper pleasure.
It's pleasure.
That can't be taken away from you.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I prefer the version
of stoicism that's no.
Listen, our goal is pleasure.
It's just we found a
better way to get Yes,
Speaker 2: this is, here's
some really good pleasure.
Yeah.
Okay.
And I mean whatever, to
be fair to Marcus, maybe.
Pleasure might be a difficult word to
translate through the, that's right.
Through the areas or something mean.
He might
Speaker: mean like
Speaker 2: he might be highs or something.
Passing pleasures, simple
pleasures or whatever.
Simple pleasure.
Not simple Exactly,
but like complex fleet.
Fleeting pleasures, drugs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker: Or, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My favorite part about this
you'll probably be able to guess,
Tom, are the things he lists.
To illustrate his point.
Speaker 2: Yes.
So from horses to vine shoots,
Speaker: everything is here for a purpose.
So presumably if I wrote that part
of the sentence first, I would, yeah.
Really scratch my head.
For the most deplorable.
Speaker 2: Yes.
What?
What is example?
Yes.
What is an extreme enough example?
Everything is here for a purchase.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
And
Speaker: Rainstorms
Speaker 2: Yes.
And bacteria.
Yeah.
And, yeah, exactly.
Like
Speaker: yeah.
Colon cancer.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Not, but he goes for horses.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And
Speaker: Vines shoes and, geez.
Speaker 2: Which, yes.
What do you have any sense of what
he was going for with those examples?
Speaker: Those don't even
feel like polar opposites
Speaker 2: yes.
Speaker: I like.
You're usually in that sense structure.
Yeah.
You're coming up with something really
small from X to Y, something really big.
Yeah.
To create
Speaker 2: a range.
Yeah.
Yes.
They seem to just be true
Speaker: inanimate to animate
or something like, yes.
It's just, yes.
I guess in some ways this is the
whole spectrum because it's like.
Plants and humans are like the
trifecta maybe in his mind.
Sure.
And so this covers everything
Speaker 2: and horses are, then he talks
Speaker: about the sun.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Horses are big and
strong, and vine shoots are maybe
small and delicate or something.
Yeah,
Yeah.
That would be.
Yes, I agree with you.
Those are interesting.
I'm also very interested in his, even
the sun will tell you, even the sun,
Speaker 3: I,
Speaker 2: the sun will tell, it's
not just that the son has a purpose.
Yeah.
But the sun will tell
you I have a purpose.
Speaker: What a weird thing to say.
Yes.
How, why, yeah.
Speaker 2: How did I wonder
how the son is telling him that
Speaker: I have, it's so well.
So there's that.
There's, yeah.
Okay, so we'll, let's put a
pin in the logistics of having
a conversation with the son.
Yeah.
But.
It's funny to me that even is funny
to me because it is just out of
all these things, the sun is most
clearly the Yes thing that has the
purpose as far as things that have
Speaker 2: purposes go, yes, that's true.
Speaker: So clear.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yeah and I
Speaker: guess he's, he thinks
of the sun as pointless and
purposeless, or I guess, yeah.
He hates the sun or what?
What's the Yes, I agree.
Speaker 2: That's a really a good catch
to think about what he could possibly mean
by the word even to begin that sentence.
Speaker: Like the sun is senseless.
It's cruel.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
The other gods as well.
Even the sun will tell you.
Yeah.
That is okay.
So the
Speaker: sun is a God.
Okay.
Okay.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
I, the and the other go,
Speaker 2: I wonder if he said
whatever the I'm spacing on
whoever the Roman god of the sun
would've been Helios or something.
Sure.
Jupiter.
Okay.
I don't know.
Speaker: No.
I'm not sure.
Yeah, Helio sounds right.
Yeah.
But
Speaker 2: that sounds Greek to me.
But anyway, rah.
Look, that's definitely not it.
Yes.
Even the sun will tell you.
Yeah, that does seem like he's maybe
just going, he is doing, he's extending
the thought from earlier about doing
extremes, like Sure, yeah, sure.
If he had said from
vine shoots to the sun.
I would've been like, okay.
He did a decent job at coming up
with at least two things that are
very dissimilar from one another.
Speaker: Right, so he just keeps going.
He's oh, I thought of even something
even more polar opposite the sun.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
That's where I see.
Speaker: So that's what even means not
out of the most preposterous of all is
the sun to say that it has a purpose
Speaker 2: is the sign.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
I think that's a good reading.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
I'll go with that.
And maybe instead of just referring
to the sun, like the celestial
object he's referring to the son God.
And maybe the son God is
not like well-behaved.
And could be cruel to humans.
And so that's why it's, yes.
I have a purpose.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Although you would think as far as Gods
go with, I'm no expert in the mythology
of these things, but you would think
if you were giving Gods characteristics
based on natural phenomena, yeah.
You would make the sun guy a pretty
constant, reliable guy and you would
pick other natural phenomenon never to
be associated with, he's always late.
Speaker: Cruelty, some guy Cruelty.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Unpredictability.
Okay.
Yeah.
Anyway, guy's
Speaker: always late.
I'm not inventing
Speaker 2: pathology here, but I
guess I just have that one note.
Speaker: Yeah.
Seems like he should be.
He really darkens the
room when he shows up.
He should be reliable
Speaker 2: guy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Number 20.
Speaker 2: Nature is like someone
throwing a ball in the air, gauging its
rise and arc and where it will fall.
And what does the ball gain as it flies
upward or lose when it plummets to earth?
What does the bubble gain from
its existence or lose by bursting?
And the same for a candle.
Speaker: What, okay.
Speaker 2: This
Speaker: is deep, Tom.
We have to figure out what he means.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I
Speaker: Nature.
Speaker 2: Yes.
It's really interesting.
First sentence.
I've never heard a metaphor quite
like this one in the first sentence,
nature is like someone throwing a
ball in the air, gauging its rise
and arc and where it will fall.
I
Speaker: what?
How, what?
Why is that?
Nature?
Because, sorry.
Na.
When he's talking about nature,
what has he meant in the past?
It's like how things
are meant to be thing.
Y
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's
an interesting question.
I think that's part of it.
It's but isn't, I think he does,
I'm interpreting this in part as
just like the world and life and
the world, our experience of it.
Okay.
Okay.
And guess I, I think with some implication
of the figure you're saying of like
the sort of ordered symbiosis that he
Speaker: likes, is the idea that
it doesn't, the ball doesn't gain
anything as it flies upwards.
Yeah.
And doesn't lose anything when
it plummets back down to earth.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And I think, yes, I think so.
I think those two rhetorical
questions he asks afterwards are
what are guiding us in terms of
understanding what he's talking about.
Because I think what he's, or
what I interpret this as, like
when you throw a ball in the air,
it's experiencing some change.
Speaker 3: Like
Speaker 2: in its altitude
and direction and stuff.
Speaker 3: And,
Speaker 2: but it's also like its
fundamental essence is unchanged.
Like it is still the same kind
of thing that it was before,
but it's just undergoing some
sort of superficial changes.
And I feel like that's how Marcus
likes to talk about nature too.
Which is, it's this constantly
transforming thing where things
are living and dying and being
folded back into each other.
But also in its essence, the rules never
change and it's always the same process,
just with different guises or whatever.
Speaker: Sure.
So the bubble gains nothing from its
existence and loses nothing when it
bursts, even though it feels dramatic.
Speaker 2: Yes.
That's an interesting second one.
What does the bubble
gain from its existence?
I have no idea how to answer that.
Such a, what Does anything, yes, what
does anything gain from its existence?
I guess he, the point is that the bubble,
so part of the point is that he thinks
that these things, nature itself doesn't
have any kind of subjective experience.
It's just a thing.
All these comparisons are just to
things that undergo some kind of.
Temporary period of change and
then they're gone or something
happens anyway or, yeah, or
they just plummet back to earth.
The bubble one is the most
troubling to me, honestly, because
it does seem like a bubble is
fundamentally changed when it bursts.
I just that's where I lose the
thread of, I guess his point
is it was just some whatever.
There are so
Speaker: many bubbles, like there's
an entire stream full of bubbles.
Speaker 2: And it was just
some water and some oil or
whatever it was some modern oil.
Yeah.
To begin with.
It's still some water and oil.
It's just not enclosing a gas
anymore the way that it was.
Speaker: Yeah.
The very obvious analogy is
his own life, so it comes right
after the whole, like grumbling.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yeah.
So if he bursts like a bubble or
crashes down back to earth like a ball.
Yeah.
What does he lose?
The point is that the
essence of him was unchanged.
And it's just that the pieces
of him were transformed.
Into something else.
And similarly so lazy and the same for
a candle as the last sentence as he
doesn't even bother to write it out.
The candle, same charact know why
Speaker: the candle is such an important
Speaker 2: Yeah.
He is just I have one more, but yeah.
Whatever the candle, you get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Nature.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
So presumably he means when a
candle like goes out or burns down.
Sure.
That it doesn't lose, its.
It's inherent essence, but he is talking
about things that are it's confusing
because the ball feels different to
me than the bubble and the candle.
'cause the bubble and the
candle are going undergoing
transformation in a way the ball is
Speaker: not.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
Speaker 2: Okay let's put a
Speaker: bit in like transformation
and axioms of transformation and what.
The part that caught me off
guard with the ball is that yeah,
someone is like gauging It's yes.
Rise and park.
Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Yes.
I totally agree with that.
What is the, what is going on with the
person doing the throwing and the gauging?
Speaker: Yeah.
What do you think?
Think about that.
Yes.
Someone is that us?
Are we the ones that are like, our
life is the ball and we throw it?
Then we're like obsessed with figuring out
its rise and arc and where it will fall.
Where it will fall.
That's
Speaker 2: interesting.
But we're also the ball.
It feels like
Speaker: our life is our,
like our spirit is the person
throwing in our like, oh wow.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Yes.
Alright.
You have an interesting read on this.
Yes.
Okay.
So somehow yes, we are both
the, someone throwing and the
ball maybe, and yes, there's.
No, I like that reading.
No,
Speaker: I know.
I'm just,
Speaker 2: I, yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
So yes, there's some part of
us that, that throws this ball.
And the ball is our own.
Yes.
Like our soul or our spirit
is the, is doing the throwing.
And the, something eternal and
outside of our bodies throws the ball
and the ball represents the arc of
our lives or something like that.
Speaker: And,
Speaker 2: and it's very
concerned about where.
How quickly it's gonna crash back to
earth and how far it'll go or whatever.
But the point is that the ball
is still just a ball basically.
It doesn't Yeah.
Like the ball experiencing
Speaker: does.
What does the ball gain
when it flies upwards?
Potential energy.
That's obviously that's what modern
readers answer that question with.
That's right.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Anyone who's
taken a physics class.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or lose when it plummets to earth.
Yeah.
Okay.
Wait, I think yeah, that's an interesting
read that Yes, we might be both.
I like that because it does feel like you
could, it characterizes a lot of Marcus's
behavior of like simultaneously being
the person who is living and the person
who is trying to examine that kind of
life sort of objectively and externally.
It doesn't feel like that part of
the metaphor to me extends to the
two subsequent examples that, no.
Yeah.
The other examples
Speaker: are weird.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No one's like gauging the
rise and arc of a bubble.
I.
Speaker 2: I guess somebody cre
blew the bubble or whatever, maybe.
Sure.
And then they're, they watching
it and waiting until it pops.
And then candle
Speaker: Maybe somebody lit.
Maybe he, maybe this is an
activity of ancient times
where you like watch bubbles.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
There's just an implicit
Speaker: Yeah.
Everyone's watching bubbles all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: But what does it
actually lose by bursting,
Speaker 2: right.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think that was an
interesting thought experiment.
I think, yeah.
It gets at something very deep
and philosophical about Yes.
Being, the separating out
possibly a timeless portion
of yourself from a body bound
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Impermanent
version of yourself.
Speaker: Yeah.
I guess with all Marcus, you're
like, okay, you're in the trench.
In World War I, you're being
asked to, like you have to charge.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Like you're gonna get mowed down.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker: Most likely.
Speaker 2: What does the
bubble gain from its existence?
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
What?
What does it matter?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
You're a candle that's
gonna get extinguished, but
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Oof.
Boy, I don't know if that would
really do that much for me
under those circumstances, but.
Speaker: No,
Speaker 2: I don't.
No.
Growers?
No.
Maybe a different one?
Yeah.
Okay.
Number 21.
Turn it inside out.
What is it like, what is it like old or
sick or selling itself on the streets.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker 2: They all die soon.
Praiser and praised
rememberer and remembered.
Remembered in these parts
or in a corner of them.
Even there, they don't all agree
with each other or even with
themselves and the whole earth.
I mere point in space.
Speaker: Whoa.
Wait, he realizes that the
earth is a point in space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's
I that one I wonder.
Speaker: Yeah.
Look, I thought they didn't, they
think that the sky was just like
a blanket and the earth was flat.
Speaker 2: I actually don't know.
No, they, no.
I think no we've known about the
roundness of the earth, I think as
far back as the Greeks, I think.
Wow.
It wasn't always totally accepted,
but we knew about the roundness
of the earth back that far.
I think what's later is understanding
that we revolve around the sun.
Speaker: Okay.
Okay.
'cause we thought all the planets
revolved around us or whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Okay.
Speaker 2: That's Copernicus.
Okay.
So the classic is
Speaker: Tom.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Turn it inside out.
What is it like, what is it like,
Speaker: what is it like old?
I love that sentence.
Yes.
Yes.
What is it
Speaker 2: like?
It like old is a, yeah.
A kind of an interesting
combination of English words.
Is that a fridge
Speaker: magnet?
Speaker 2: Yes.
I don't think this one's a fridge.
Fridge magnet.
What is it?
Speaker: Like old Tom?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yeah.
Marcus.
Okay.
Yes.
That could be Marcus Aurelius.
Yes.
It could be a guy.
It could be a guide to like the
expired food in your fridge.
Don't keep this kind of produce
for more than two weeks.
And then it says, what is,
and then there's a guide.
A guide to what?
It's like old.
Speaker: It's a question what is it?
Like old?
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Or selling itself on the streets.
Yes.
Speaker 2: That, that
phrase catches myself too.
Speaker: So it is his life or what?
Speaker 2: Boy, I don't know.
What do you think?
Speaker: Selling itself on the
streets is very much like prostitute.
That's what that screams like.
That's what
Speaker 2: I read that as to
which means that the IT here is a.
Person,
Speaker: human life or something
like the arc of your life.
Turn it inside out.
What is it?
What is it like?
What is it
Speaker 2: like to be
the implication being?
What is it like to be alive, basically?
Yeah.
And then what is it like to be alive, old?
What is it like to be alive?
Sick.
Speaker: So it's a stoic concept,
like just imagine yourself in
all these unpleasant situations.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's the first section.
Like really examine things,
turn things inside out.
They all die soon.
Praise her.
And praise, remember?
Un remembered.
Yeah.
Remembered in these parts
or in a corner of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I and the whole, yeah.
It feels, this feels like that middle
paragraph is something more that I
feel like we've heard from him before.
Where it's just whatever, no one's
gonna remember you or even, yeah.
Remember that there was
something to remember about you.
So just don't worry about that.
Speaker: What is it?
Like old is still my favorite part.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That's that, yes.
The first couple sentences there where
he is just asking, turn it inside out.
What is it like, are interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
To me I guess I would say the other thing.
Is whatever the follow up questions don't
always match this, but turn it inside out
is like a good example of what he seems to
love to do philosophically at all times.
It's like his instinct
with everything is to say,
Speaker: yeah,
Speaker 2: okay.
Here's some aspect of the
world that it's experienced.
Yeah.
What is it made of?
Let me poke at it and
see what it's all about.
Yeah.
And so I think some of, I read
that first sentence as, or that
first couple sentences as just
here's how to approach life.
Turn everything inside out, try
to figure out what it all is.
Speaker: Yeah, I think
that's, I think that's,
Speaker 2: and break
it Good interpretation.
See what it's like when it's
like not working correctly as
another way of seeing what it is.
And then the, but to zoom out and then the
last sentence be, the whole earth of your
point in space is really interesting too.
I guess his point is that I think
that just tags the paragraph
that precedes it where he says.
No one's gonna remember any of this stuff.
E everything is gonna be
forgotten or misremembered.
And then remember that even
the earth is just some spec
Speaker: universe feels
like a different concept.
The universe, like he, that's a
concept he loves, but it's like now
he's gluing it together with the
whole like, think about the worst case
scenarios to make yourself feel better.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree that, I
do think there's an interesting
fusion of two different ideas.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The first being
those co first couple questions
and then the second being.
Speaker: Nothing matters.
Insignificance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Insignificance.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
So can we make any sense of,
those are both definitely ideas
that he has and he likes that.
They're both things that come
back to you as, on the one
hand, think about the bad stuff.
Think about,
Speaker: yeah,
Speaker 2: how unpleasant life
can be as a way of not taking
it for, or like whatever.
Being grateful for the
stuff that you do have, and
Speaker 3: yeah,
Speaker 2: not feeling entitled to it.
But then also remember you are.
Microscopic.
Speaker: Tom, we it's possible
that we're sometimes we approach
the texts the wrong way.
I wonder if there's a way to read
this text that's just more it's
more like you read the words and you
reflect on how they make you feel.
Yeah.
Rather than figuring out
logic, picking puzzling them.
Logic.
Yeah.
Like figuring out what he means.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
How do these make you feel?
Speaker: I like this.
I actually really do like this line.
What is it, like old, like
I'm looking at my hand, okay.
It's gonna be so wrinkled, I hope.
Yeah, right?
Okay.
Yes.
Knock on wood.
And it's gonna have my moles
are gonna be much bigger,
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Am I hurt too?
Speaker: Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
It's gonna have some light arthritis.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: That makes me
feel better in the moment.
'cause right now it's pretty good.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Totally.
Yeah, they worked.
They were great.
My hands pretty good.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: totally.
No complaints.
Speaker: No complaints.
I don't even think about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I have webbed hands as I'm
looking at my hands for this.
Yeah.
Your hands.
Yes.
My hands are yes.
My, I don't like how webbed my no left
ring and middle finger are to one another.
Speaker: No, I don't either.
Yeah.
I hate it.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Me good.
Me too.
Speaker: So what I think about,
Speaker 2: yes,
Speaker: most days.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
So yes, that concept is meaningful.
Like he's just, 'cause he's saying
the same thing over and over again,
but he's saying it in slightly
different ways and it's about how Yeah.
Does it help us feel the thing
he's trying to make us feel?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: They all die soon.
Praise her.
And praise remember and remembered.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I like the, the little
voice you're doing there is,
Speaker: yeah.
It
Speaker 2: Sounds like he's sermonizing.
Speaker: Right
Speaker 2: yeah.
No, thank you for saying that.
I totally agree with that.
And I think there's, that's a really, that
gets that something very interesting about
this text, I think, which is a lot of it
is presented as philosophy per se, right?
Where the appeal that he's
making is primarily logical.
And I think we have a tendency
because whatever we find
puzzles like this fund Yeah.
To really try to engage with
him on that access, where we're
like, let's figure out the logic,
let's see what he's right about.
Let's see if we can poke holes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
But.
Speaker 2: It is also literature
Speaker 3: Yeah.
In a
Speaker 2: way that might work more
on the axis that you're describing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Where it's
Speaker 2: Let's just read it
and see if he has broader aims
about making us feel stuff.
And I think you're totally right.
Yeah.
And he, it works for me.
I think you're a hundred percent right
Speaker: that, yeah.
We can read it like poetry
every once in a while.
Like it's just
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Sometimes it totally is too.
I think we've had instances, we joke about
the fridge magnet, but the fridge magnet
is in some ways about identifying Yeah.
Poetry.
A feeling in the, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Okay.
Any other thoughts about that one?
About how it made you feel?
No, it
Speaker: was a nice experience.
Thank you, Marcus, for passing
that experience down to us.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's read number 22 then.
Speaker: Let's do it.
Speaker 2: Stick to
what's in front of you.
Idea.
Action.
Utterance.
Speaker: I don't feel anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Okay.
He's saying stay present.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: God, it's so opposite from 21.
Yes,
Speaker 2: it really is.
Boy, there's, is there less of a
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Could there be more disagreement
with the concept of turn it
inside out and turn it inside out?
Every angle like
Speaker: am mere, the whole
earth is a mere point in space.
And then he is yes.
No.
Forget about that.
Focus on what's in front of you.
Yeah.
What is
Speaker 2: happening to you right now?
Quit thinking about everything else.
Speaker: I guess those are,
they don't have to be opposites.
I guess part of it is like knowing that
everything is so fast and meaningless.
That's what yes,
Speaker 3: yes.
Speaker: Supposedly the answer to
existentialism is and therefore
just control your little world.
It's fine.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I, I think that's
probably what he means.
Yeah.
Probably the same idea to him.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yeah.
That's interesting that it
might be the same idea to him.
I think you're right.
And I guess I read this I think, I
wonder if he would really have thought
these are the same idea, or if he,
I wonder if he was a guy who like
accepted the concept that there
were contradictions in life.
Because like on some level,
this is a contradiction,
Speaker 3: I
Speaker 2: think.
Or our initial reaction to this was
like, that feels contradictory because
we do have these competing impulses
in life to, yes, we all want to be
present and, but also we all have this
instinct, which I think is not a bad one.
To think about stuff and learn about
the world and investigate and try to
Speaker: right
Speaker 2: plan for the future
and do all this stuff that is
at odds with being present.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: I wonder if he
would've said, you are wrong.
Yeah.
That's,
Speaker: yeah.
Speaker 2: There is no
contradiction there.
'cause I think the modern way of
thinking about it, or at least
the way I'm accustomed to thinking
about questions like that is, yeah.
Part of what makes life
interesting and fun is those
pleasant contradictions in life.
Yeah.
That we're always trying to
balance these competing impulses.
Yeah.
But he rarely acknowledges that.
It's very rarely Hey, yeah.
I know you've got two impossible
demands that you can't
possibly rectify, so it's okay.
Yeah, he's always it's very, no, I
haven't figured out I wonder what he
would think about the idea that life
is just inherently contradictory in its
Speaker: demands.
What a great point, Tom.
I actually have a feeling.
If we like resurrected him now.
Yeah.
And sat him down to listen
to one of these episodes.
Okay.
He would just be like, yeah, I know.
Wouldn't that be amazing?
I would,
Speaker 2: I'd be so nervous.
Speaker: I think his reaction
would be like, you guys are
missing, really missing the point.
Missing the point.
Speaker 2: I say
Speaker: we I think his reaction
would be something along the lines
of I'm not my per, I'm not saying.
I know the answers.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: The whole point is
I don't know the answers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're like reveling in
that uncertainty and Yes.
All of these things contradict.
Yeah.
And the fact, and like this
attempt to explain it all
is like laughably is a yes.
Pointless.
Speaker 2: Right?
Yes.
But it's, yes.
It's just his way of.
Dealing with the, all the contradictory
ness of it is to try to account for
some of it logically or whatever.
Speaker: Or like he just says stuff.
He just says stuff, and it all together
forms the patchwork of the truth.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's all true.
And yes, it contradicts like, yeah.
But to your point
Speaker 2: yes.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I, so I think.
I like to think that he
sees the world that way too.
I think that makes him more interesting
and complex than someone who's no.
The my philosophy has figured it all out
and has resolved all the complexities of
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Of living.
And I think you're right.
I think the fact that he's writing
in the style in which he's writing,
in which he jumps around and repeats
himself and does these contradictory
moves, I think it implies.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 2: I, I think it agrees
with what you're saying, basically
that he finds life challenging and
contradictory, which is why he needs to
go through this exercise to begin with.
Speaker: And I think he would laugh at
the style of what we're doing, which is,
Speaker 2: yes.
Speaker: But what's the answer?
What's the Caught you?
Yes.
Caught you,
Speaker 2: You're contradicting yourself.
He would be like, yes, correct.
That's, he's
Speaker: I'm glad you
guys are reading this.
You're gonna need it.
You got a long life ahead of you.
Or you're gonna have some struggles if
you guys are trying to find answers.
Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Assuming he's older than us,
assuming he's not 18 years old here.
Yes.
Speaker 2: I think we established
that he wrote this book
later in his life, but, okay.
All
Speaker: Good.
Speaker 2: He would be somewhat
Speaker: older.
He better be old.
I don't want young Marcus.
Like that's, that would be very, that
would just ruin in my, yeah, there was
Speaker 2: a while where I thought, we
thought he was writing this book when
he was like 18 years old or something,
but I think we looked it up and it's
like he's in his fifties or something.
Speaker 3: Okay, good.
Speaker 2: So older than us.
Anyway.
Speaker: All right.
With that, yeah, that's a,
Speaker 2: that's a nice place to maybe
end this episode with a little, let's
do it thought, experiment about what
Marcus might think about us and yeah,
maybe I think we had some nice thoughts
at the end there that we maybe we could
carry forward into our into our reading.
Let's do all.
Speaker: Thanks.
So
Bye.
Good luck tonight, tomorrow.