Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Interviews with top marketers sharing tactical tips, strategies, and lessons learned to help you grow your business. Hosted by Dave Gerhardt, founder of Exit Five, former CMO, and author of Founder Brand. Learn more at exitfive.com
Dave [0:00:01]: You're listening to The Dave Gerhardt Show.
Dave [0:00:02]: Casey, good good to see you good to have you on your job, is you're a person which we're not gonna talk about say.
Dave [0:00:23]: We're gonna talk about marketing.
Dave [0:00:24]: Unfortunately, but your job is head of ABM at Snowflake.
Dave [0:00:27]: Right?
Casey [0:00:29]: I'm not Ai.
Casey [0:00:29]: I am a person.
Dave [0:00:31]: That's true.
Dave [0:00:31]: There's a lot of colors happening today to let me know that you're not Ai.
Dave [0:00:34]: But we're probably gonna talk about Ai, and you work for one of my favorite people that I've met in this industry, which is Hillary.
Dave [0:00:42]: She seems awesome.
Casey [0:00:45]: Me too.
Casey [0:00:45]: Who's one of my favorite people too.
Casey [0:00:47]: And I'm happy and fortunate to call her a mentor.
Casey [0:00:50]: He is just brilliant.
Dave [0:00:53]: But it's...
Dave [0:00:53]: I don't, I like just...
Dave [0:00:54]: I think she...
Dave [0:00:55]: I could see her being a good energy as a bot.
Dave [0:00:57]: Like, she seems also like the type of person, like, if you're some shit happen in your day or you gotta go vent about something that's going on.
Dave [0:01:04]: It feels like she's the purse.
Dave [0:01:05]: She she would be the person, and she's really smart, obviously, which helps.
Casey [0:01:09]: She is.
Casey [0:01:09]: And she's not garden.
Dave [0:01:12]: No.
Dave [0:01:12]: I I hadn't seen her.
Dave [0:01:13]: I met her once before and then she was at her event in March, and I was, like, sitting next year I was like, I feel like we're.
Dave [0:01:18]: Like, I I feel like some people give you that.
Dave [0:01:21]: I was able to...
Dave [0:01:22]: I I very quickly realized I could be my full self with her.
Dave [0:01:26]: You know what I mean?
Dave [0:01:27]: I'm just letting it fly right away, and she we she was awesome.
Casey [0:01:30]: What a beautiful things say?
Casey [0:01:31]: And that's because she's her self.
Casey [0:01:32]: And I had a I had a hard time with that, honestly, because coming in and I was very reverend of her.
Casey [0:01:39]: She was my mentor her before.
Casey [0:01:40]: I worked for her.
Casey [0:01:41]: And recently, she was like, I didn't know they had a cat into, like, one year into our relationship.
Casey [0:01:45]: Like, you're...
Casey [0:01:46]: You know, you were trying to be very professional, and and she just continually showed that who the?
Dave [0:01:53]: She didn't even know you had a cat.
Dave [0:01:54]: A cat it's like a common.
Dave [0:01:55]: I even know you drink water.
Dave [0:01:57]: I know cats, by the way, they might they might make their way over at some point today.
Casey [0:02:00]: Oh, good.
Casey [0:02:01]: You're cat in?
Dave [0:02:02]: I am...
Dave [0:02:03]: I was not, but I am now because my wife is a cat person.
Dave [0:02:07]: Their family is my kids really wanted kittens, and obviously, I had to say yes to that.
Dave [0:02:12]: And so We got a pair a bonded pair of kittens three or four years ago.
Dave [0:02:17]: I could not imagine, especially working from home, I could not imagine not having them in the house, and this is a true love story.
Dave [0:02:24]: I used to have allergies to cats.
Dave [0:02:27]: And guess what?
Dave [0:02:29]: They went away.
Casey [0:02:30]: They're coming.
Dave [0:02:31]: They broke my cold grumpy heart.
Casey [0:02:34]: Yeah.
Casey [0:02:34]: It was...
Casey [0:02:35]: It's psycho cinematic, and then you were like, okay.
Casey [0:02:37]: I'm I love them now.
Casey [0:02:38]: And...
Dave [0:02:39]: I mean, it had to be something.
Dave [0:02:40]: Right?
Dave [0:02:41]: Because I was like, I I told myself I didn't like cats before.
Dave [0:02:44]: Now they're, like, they're the most amazing creatures.
Casey [0:02:48]: They are...
Casey [0:02:48]: Oh, my gosh.
Casey [0:02:49]: I'm so happy to hear this.
Casey [0:02:51]: I up with dogs, love dogs.
Casey [0:02:52]: K.
Casey [0:02:52]: But then my husband convinced me to get a cat.
Casey [0:02:54]: I also had this weird thing with cats were I thought they were really particular, which they kind of are, But I thought that if I picked up a cat and put it down in the same spot.
Casey [0:03:02]: It wouldn't be mad at me.
Casey [0:03:03]: Big...
Casey [0:03:03]: But, like, I know.
Casey [0:03:04]: I just have these, like, weird, like, superstition about cat.
Casey [0:03:06]: And now my cat earl is just You just, you know, lives next to me and she's all clean and, they're the best.
Dave [0:03:14]: It's just like, and everyone, this is...
Dave [0:03:16]: Everyone listening listening this.
Dave [0:03:18]: If you...
Dave [0:03:18]: You you can understand this.
Dave [0:03:19]: They're just like, the presence of them in the house.
Dave [0:03:22]: And by the way, like, Dogs are cool.
Dave [0:03:23]: I love dogs.
Dave [0:03:24]: But a dog is not just gonna, like, jump up onto that beam up there in my kitchen and then just like, take an nap.
Dave [0:03:31]: Right.
Dave [0:03:32]: And we live in this house in the country in Vermont?
Dave [0:03:35]: And do they have the most fun ever just bringing us all kinds of mice and rodents all the time, Like, what I life?
Casey [0:03:42]: Oh my gosh.
Casey [0:03:42]: Ugh, for vermont.
Casey [0:03:44]: Excited.
Dave [0:03:46]: You got Denver.
Dave [0:03:46]: That's...
Dave [0:03:47]: That...
Dave [0:03:47]: That's okay.
Dave [0:03:48]: So Hillary was your your mentor, a question that comes up a lot in our, like, world and community is I want a mentor.
Dave [0:03:55]: And so this is not in my prep notes at all, but I would...
Dave [0:03:58]: How did how did you get a mentor?
Dave [0:04:00]: How did you get Hillary any advice for someone looking to to find someone the same and I don't have a good answer on my end because I've...
Dave [0:04:07]: Both of my mentors were like my boss and so I kinda of worked hard for them, and that's how it became, but it seems like that you were you are her men before being your boss.
Casey [0:04:16]: Well, I don't know if she knew.
Casey [0:04:17]: I was to eat.
Dave [0:04:20]: No.
Dave [0:04:20]: This is important though.
Dave [0:04:21]: I want you to explain.
Dave [0:04:22]: I want you to say that because I think a lot of people feel like a mentor means like I meet with you every Friday and we have breakfast and so talk about that, please.
Casey [0:04:29]: And it's informal.
Casey [0:04:30]: Yeah.
Casey [0:04:31]: So I I agree with your approach completely and I have the same approach.
Casey [0:04:34]: All of my former bosses are still mentors to me.
Casey [0:04:37]: Matt Walton, Andrew Who's now the Vp of demand janet Writer, and then Hilary.
Casey [0:04:42]: I don't work for people unless I can picture myself learning a ton from them and them being someone that I want to work for You know what I mean?
Casey [0:04:51]: I want to know long term.
Casey [0:04:52]: Like, I...
Dave [0:04:53]: Yeah.
Casey [0:04:53]: It's it's a requirement for a job that I take.
Casey [0:04:55]: But I was working at five ten, which is a partner of Snowflake, like, a smaller company.
Casey [0:05:00]: Great partner of ours, and they were building their ABM program from scratch, and that's why I was hired.
Casey [0:05:06]: Super stoked to do it, but I needed someone to vet out all my stuff.
Casey [0:05:10]: I was like, I don't know what I'm doing.
Casey [0:05:12]: I mean, kinda.
Casey [0:05:13]: But, like, I need someone to say yes or no.
Casey [0:05:16]: I need someone to rip up my decks that I'm putting together to present.
Casey [0:05:19]: And so I just cold Linkedin message because I knew she was the queen Ab.
Casey [0:05:24]: She was on her tours doing stuff like this, and I was, like, I need you to help me.
Casey [0:05:29]: And I'm so fortunate that she is the kind of person that we were talking about.
Casey [0:05:33]: She just took time out of day to run through this deck with me.
Casey [0:05:36]: And, apparently, it was okay because she kept talking to me You know, she wasn't, like, this girl's an idiot.
Casey [0:05:41]: And so I I got to keep just knocking on her door and getting her feedback on stuff.
Casey [0:05:46]: And then, you know, roll opened up here at Snowflake and then the rest of history.
Casey [0:05:50]: So it was definitely not, like, His.
Casey [0:05:52]: It wasn't...
Casey [0:05:53]: We just bumped into each other somewhere.
Casey [0:05:54]: I was, like, sales, you know, knocking on on the door and hillary Scorpio for at purposefully to to make sure that I could get her mentorship.
Dave [0:06:03]: So someone...
Dave [0:06:03]: If someone in our community, like Dms me and like, hey Dave, like, I heard your come, you know, I really need a mentor.
Dave [0:06:09]: How would you answer that question if you're me?
Casey [0:06:15]: Wow.
Casey [0:06:15]: I'm gonna take a big pause here.
Casey [0:06:17]: If you're not already seeing people in your circle who are teaching you, If you're not already in a in a place where you feel like you're learning, that's the problem, not the Easy to mentor.
Casey [0:06:30]: The mon of mentor is not something you have to have.
Casey [0:06:34]: You don't have to sit down and write out of paper and, like, sign it.
Casey [0:06:37]: You know?
Casey [0:06:37]: It's, like we can just know each other, and I can learn from you.
Casey [0:06:42]: There's a little bit of, like, differential miss.
Casey [0:06:44]: Like, there's...
Casey [0:06:45]: There has to be some kind of peck order, you know, to some degree.
Casey [0:06:48]: I was at a smaller company.
Casey [0:06:49]: I had a smaller team.
Casey [0:06:49]: Hillary was, you know, larger than my brilliant, and now she's the Vp of growth.
Casey [0:06:53]: Like, I knew that there was a there was a peck order there, and I wanted to be in her mentorship or in her, like, being taught by her.
Casey [0:07:01]: So the there...
Casey [0:07:02]: It's a little bit of, like, be humble, find somebody know smarter than you, go talk to them and don't...
Casey [0:07:07]: If you like them, just keep talking to them.
Dave [0:07:11]: Mh But you all...
Dave [0:07:12]: It seemed like you had a specific you a specific ask also.
Dave [0:07:16]: Right?
Dave [0:07:16]: You wanted her, like, you had a plan that you wanted to review.
Dave [0:07:20]: You weren't just like...
Dave [0:07:21]: Yeah.
Dave [0:07:21]: I wanna a mentor.
Dave [0:07:22]: Let's get coffee and talk about my cat.
Dave [0:07:24]: Right?
Casey [0:07:26]: Right.
Casey [0:07:26]: That's very true.
Dave [0:07:27]: Okay.
Dave [0:07:27]: So if I can...
Dave [0:07:28]: If I can translate back, it's, like, and I I was hoping this would be the answer because I I feel like it can be a crutch sometimes, like, I need a mentor I need a mentor when I'm like, there's a podcast that I've been listening to.
Dave [0:07:38]: There's authors that I read, you know, books that I read and I'm like, I feel like that person is a mentor through their writing.
Dave [0:07:43]: But you could...
Dave [0:07:44]: Hey, I really wanna find a mentor in Seo, and so I would probably go and find start listening to podcast podcasts, watching Youtube videos going to in event and seeing someone speak, and then, like, having something to say after and...
Dave [0:07:57]: Yeah.
Dave [0:07:57]: It's it's...
Dave [0:07:58]: I feel like we always want the shortcut of, like, oh, here's...
Dave [0:08:01]: Oh, great.
Dave [0:08:01]: Here's a seasoned Cmo of, you know, thirty years of experience in gonna meet with you every Friday.
Dave [0:08:06]: Like, why would she want?
Dave [0:08:07]: Because the whole thing is, like, the the the peck order thing is always why the balance of power is off.
Dave [0:08:12]: It's like, why why would she wanna meet with you?
Dave [0:08:13]: She's got a thousand other people.
Casey [0:08:15]: Exactly?
Dave [0:08:16]: What, she ended up wanting to be She's ended up being someone who's gonna recruit you, So there was a...
Dave [0:08:20]: You know, she's also playing the long game there from a, team building standpoint.
Dave [0:08:23]: And now, look at what happened on her end.
Casey [0:08:25]: Yeah.
Casey [0:08:25]: That's a great point.
Casey [0:08:26]: And, coming with a game plan and a point of view is actually something that I've practiced.
Casey [0:08:31]: With her sins too because it's, like, she's a fast moving person.
Casey [0:08:35]: If she doesn't have something to comment on or, like, move forward with.
Casey [0:08:38]: She's gonna get bored...
Casey [0:08:39]: Like, like, don't bore...
Casey [0:08:40]: You know, like, be exciting.
Casey [0:08:41]: Be someone who's, like, bringing no ideas who's Right.
Casey [0:08:44]: Ask some questions who's being curious all those things.
Dave [0:08:47]: Not like, so what should I...
Dave [0:08:48]: So what I do with my...
Dave [0:08:49]: What should I do with my career.
Dave [0:08:50]: Okay.
Dave [0:08:52]: So so you...
Dave [0:08:52]: This is a...
Dave [0:08:53]: That's a good...
Casey [0:08:54]: Actually what but what should I know with my career is something that people need to help with sometimes.
Casey [0:08:58]: And so...
Casey [0:08:58]: And it's not...
Casey [0:08:59]: It...
Casey [0:08:59]: I like, it...
Casey [0:09:00]: That isn't the foundation necessarily for, like, a long term flourishing, like, business partnership relationship type thing.
Casey [0:09:06]: But, like, if, you know, you probably get people coming to you who are just out of place in life where they're, like it's hard.
Casey [0:09:13]: I don't know what to do.
Casey [0:09:14]: I'm stuck.
Casey [0:09:14]: Like, that's also a good have.
Casey [0:09:17]: I'm not thinking about think, but...
Dave [0:09:19]: No.
Dave [0:09:19]: Good pushback.
Dave [0:09:20]: It's okay to do that, by the way.
Dave [0:09:21]: Good job.
Casey [0:09:23]: I know.
Casey [0:09:23]: I just.
Dave [0:09:24]: Sometimes being a podcast host is like, matter what you say to someone everyone just says yes, and then they expect you to ask them the next question, so that was good you're doing a great job.
Casey [0:09:33]: I think that's why I got back here because I think on the first one, I did a little pitch I can be like, oh.
Casey [0:09:38]: No Point of deal.
Dave [0:09:39]: That's Doesn't take much.
Dave [0:09:40]: Does not take much.
Dave [0:09:41]: The barge
Casey [0:09:44]: You can see what Hilary already house so, you know, Has to
Dave [0:09:46]: do Yeah.
Dave [0:09:46]: No.
Dave [0:09:47]: My thing was, like, alright.
Dave [0:09:48]: I, sorry.
Dave [0:09:49]: Mine was, like, the more, like, Hey, you don't know anything about me what should I do in my career versus like, I think if you came with a specific ask to a specific person, and here's I wanna talk to you because you...
Dave [0:09:58]: You know, you're Cmo, and but you came up through P r, and I haven't seen many other Cmo come up through P.
Dave [0:10:05]: And I work in P r now and I wanna be bc cmo one day.
Dave [0:10:07]: Like, you know, I'm kinda find your find your ankles.
Casey [0:10:10]: And and knowing them.
Casey [0:10:11]: What you're what you're alluding to is like, knowing them to too.
Casey [0:10:13]: Like you've research them, you know something about them?
Casey [0:10:16]: Yeah.
Dave [0:10:16]: I got...
Dave [0:10:16]: I feel like it's the same thing when people are, like, how do I find influencers like, I I need to...
Dave [0:10:21]: I wanna find influencers to promote my, you know, thing?
Dave [0:10:23]: Like, how do I find them?
Dave [0:10:24]: And I'm like, well, then yeah step one is, like, you're not in the...
Dave [0:10:28]: You're not in the pool then because you gotta be, like, reading this...
Dave [0:10:31]: You Be seeing, like, who are you reading on subs, Which podcasts are listening to who you following on X in Linkedin that you have to be in the mix that way.
Casey [0:10:38]: Mh.
Casey [0:10:38]: Yeah.
Casey [0:10:39]: I do have to get your hands answer a little bit.
Casey [0:10:40]: And, also, if you can't find an influencer, then they're probably not very good influencers because their whole job is to get found.
Casey [0:10:45]: So
Dave [0:10:47]: Yeah.
Dave [0:10:47]: Maybe, but I think there's, like, a play where, like, maybe if you're at the Snowflake level, you're gonna find...
Dave [0:10:51]: I think there's a play though with, like, micro ish influencers where, like, there's a find someone with, like, you know, eleven thousand followers or something.
Dave [0:10:59]: U.
Dave [0:11:00]: I talked about a, this with Chris.
Dave [0:11:02]: He runs a social stuff at click up, and they have created a bunch like viral marketing content.
Dave [0:11:07]: And he said his play is you go on Instagram, and you find Like, are you are you on Instagram?
Dave [0:11:14]: You.
Dave [0:11:14]: Okay.
Dave [0:11:15]: You're not.
Dave [0:11:16]: But do you know what it is?
Casey [0:11:17]: I do know what it is.
Dave [0:11:19]: Okay.
Dave [0:11:19]: Great.
Dave [0:11:20]: Cool, I can keep going.
Dave [0:11:21]: So like, if you click on your four you page.
Dave [0:11:24]: Right.
Dave [0:11:24]: You'll see videos and so my content is, like, mid thirties dads working out.
Dave [0:11:30]: It's a little embarrassing it's disgusting.
Dave [0:11:32]: And and
Casey [0:11:36]: Working out.
Casey [0:11:36]: Oh my god.
Dave [0:11:38]: Yeah.
Dave [0:11:38]: It's like, girlfriend.
Dave [0:11:39]: It's middle...
Dave [0:11:40]: It's a middle aged.
Dave [0:11:41]: There's a whole thing.
Dave [0:11:42]: Like, and my whole feed is like, the morning routine of, like, a dad getting up at four fifty seven Am is making the coffee over there.
Dave [0:11:50]: You do this little stupid dance, brush your teeth and and go for run and you document that.
Dave [0:11:55]: But anyway, his move is, like, you go to people and and sometimes you find someone you find a video that kinda went viral for a creator, but then you you click on their page and they have, you know, really low followers still.
Dave [0:12:07]: So clearly, they made one video that popped off that that went viral, but they haven't blown up as a creator and he's, like, I would find those people and then hire them to make videos for us because for them, that person probably has a full time job, probably, you know, is doing something else they're an accountant and they make videos on social on the side and, like, to be able to, like, dude this brand reached out to me.
Dave [0:12:26]: And they gonna pay me five hundred bucks to, like, make two videos this month, Like, Alright.
Dave [0:12:29]: They would do that, and they're probably better at it than you.
Dave [0:12:31]: And so I think there's, like, a play there where you gotta you gotta be in the mix on on.
Dave [0:12:35]: But I think that's true in in in anything when they're seeking a mentor getting marketing advice.
Dave [0:12:40]: It's tough to do a good job if you're not in the middle of it.
Dave [0:12:42]: I I learned by doing it.
Dave [0:12:43]: It seems like you you have.
Dave [0:12:45]: Right?
Dave [0:12:45]: Like, you you didn't have experience.
Dave [0:12:48]: Yes, you're at five tram before this, but, like, you weren't...
Dave [0:12:50]: Right now, like, my notes here say that you you manage a team of twenty three ABM marketers.
Dave [0:12:55]: I'm sure pretty sure that the company had before this, you have a team of twenty three Ibm people.
Dave [0:13:00]: Most of us just you're gonna learn by doing.
Casey [0:13:02]: Mh.
Casey [0:13:02]: Yeah.
Casey [0:13:03]: And I have this kind of delusional, like, I can do it.
Casey [0:13:05]: I can do it.
Casey [0:13:07]: Like someone says, you know, can you do this and I'm like, absolutely.
Casey [0:13:09]: I don't care what it is.
Casey [0:13:11]: I'll figure it out.
Casey [0:13:12]: And I think you do have to kind of
Dave [0:13:13]: have that.
Casey [0:13:14]: You can't, like, oh, let me...
Casey [0:13:15]: It's kind of like the mentorship thing It's it's not like, let me sit back and think about, like, Yeah.
Casey [0:13:19]: What do I need mentor and what do I need?
Casey [0:13:22]: And what can I?
Casey [0:13:22]: And like, how do Find this?
Casey [0:13:23]: Like, go be a firefighter?
Casey [0:13:24]: Like, figure it out, you know, you you have to just do it and and make mistakes and and be okay with mistakes and move past them?
Casey [0:13:30]: And that's all I too.
Casey [0:13:32]: That's all like self growth stuff too.
Dave [0:13:34]: I don't know.
Dave [0:13:34]: I don't know, but I'll figure it out.
Casey [0:13:37]: Yeah.
Dave [0:13:37]: And I I I think that mindset is especially
Casey [0:13:42]: Rare?
Dave [0:13:43]: Well, I think it's especially important in marketing because it's like, there's not a lot of stuff in marketing that you need to have had eight years of schooling and this degree in that degree you know, like, if I go to the doctor, and that guy's can operate on me, you know, or girl or whoever or whatever.
Dave [0:14:02]: If that person's gonna operate on me.
Dave [0:14:04]: Like, they better not be like, I just figured it out.
Dave [0:14:06]: And you can't.
Dave [0:14:08]: But so much of marketing is, like, there's so much nuance and so much of it is, like taste and intuition and Opportunity in reading the market and.
Dave [0:14:16]: Understanding the butt...
Dave [0:14:17]: Okay.
Dave [0:14:18]: We we either...
Dave [0:14:18]: We can't do that because we don't have the budget.
Dave [0:14:20]: We don't have the talent.
Dave [0:14:21]: Like, it's this whole kind of game of reading things, and I saw someone write something recently that was like, hey.
Dave [0:14:26]: We're about to start testing into meta ads.
Dave [0:14:30]: Anybody have advice or things they wish they did or didn't do, and I just read that post and I got a response in my body because that's just not how I work.
Dave [0:14:39]: I'd be like, I don't know.
Dave [0:14:40]: Go take a thousand bucks and spend it and see what happens.
Dave [0:14:42]: Like, that's not an example where you need to go and, like, I gotta go meet with Casey because she knows how to do, like, do just figure it out.
Dave [0:14:50]: Yep.
Dave [0:14:50]: Now if something's like, hey, I'm writing a book and I'm launching a book has anyone done, like, a book tour and book promotions and, like, that's more of specialize example, but there's, like, this bar of, like, what are the things that we can figure out, you know?
Casey [0:15:02]: Okay.
Casey [0:15:02]: So then what are the things you seek advice on?
Casey [0:15:04]: Like, what are the things that are in the latter category where it's like, I do need from what to tell me X.
Dave [0:15:11]: It's usually, like, much bigger, maybe a strategic type of stuff.
Dave [0:15:17]: Like, hey.
Dave [0:15:18]: We want to go do this thing.
Dave [0:15:20]: Should we partner with this company?
Dave [0:15:21]: Anyone have experience with partnering with these types of companies?
Dave [0:15:24]: Or...
Dave [0:15:26]: Okay.
Dave [0:15:27]: We ramped up spending, we've learned a lot.
Dave [0:15:29]: I think in the grand scheme of things we're still not spending a lot on Linkedin, but I'm spending, you know, twenty grand a month on Linkedin.
Dave [0:15:36]: That's a quarter million dollars year.
Dave [0:15:38]: I wanna talk to someone who's spending a million dollars a year on Linkedin to see, like, what I'm missing, like the next level of it.
Casey [0:15:46]: U.
Dave [0:15:46]: You know, I think it's helpful to see always what the next level up from you is doing.
Casey [0:15:52]: Very true.
Casey [0:15:52]: Very true.
Dave [0:15:54]: And I guess the hard part is just, like, not everybody has access to those things.
Dave [0:15:58]: It's easy for me to be, you know, such a such a famous B2B marketing thought leader and say these things, but not everyone has the connections that I do, you know what I?
Casey [0:16:06]: Not everyone is saved your hurt.
Casey [0:16:07]: So not.
Casey [0:16:09]: Maybe may part of what frustrating to do about the...
Casey [0:16:11]: So I see your last name right by the way.
Casey [0:16:13]: Gary.
Dave [0:16:13]: Nailed it.
Casey [0:16:14]: No.
Casey [0:16:14]: Okay.
Casey [0:16:14]: Maybe part of what was frustrating to them was just the the audience that that person was asking the question too.
Casey [0:16:21]: Like, hey, everyone out there.
Casey [0:16:23]: What's gonna deal with lay Linkedin, but, you know, instead of, like, I know that Dave runs a x million dollar business.
Casey [0:16:29]: I know he says on Linkedin.
Casey [0:16:30]: I wanna see exactly what that person doing.
Casey [0:16:33]: Maybe...
Dave [0:16:34]: Yes.
Dave [0:16:34]: Yeah.
Dave [0:16:34]: They at this...
Dave [0:16:35]: Look at this savage right now.
Casey [0:16:37]: She...
Casey [0:16:37]: When is she eating?
Casey [0:16:38]: Your breakfast?
Dave [0:16:39]: She's...
Dave [0:16:39]: It's blurry because the riverside thing is blurry, but she's eating the eggs, the crust eggs out of the cast iron pan, which I've have not taken out un cleaned yet.
Casey [0:16:48]: Cast iron hot notch cooking cool.
Dave [0:16:50]: I get yelled that if I don't clean them properly.
Casey [0:16:54]: Yeah.
Casey [0:16:54]: Yeah.
Casey [0:16:54]: Yeah.
Dave [0:16:55]: And then, like, look, I know the cats are not supposed to be up here, but, like, what do you think they do when I'm not home.
Dave [0:16:59]: Like...
Casey [0:17:00]: They...
Casey [0:17:00]: You can't control cats.
Casey [0:17:01]: That's thing.
Casey [0:17:02]: Can't train them.
Dave [0:17:05]: You can't...
Dave [0:17:05]: We did get them leash though.
Dave [0:17:06]: We try to take them outside because I...
Dave [0:17:08]: They're not outdoor cats because now.
Dave [0:17:10]: My wife...
Dave [0:17:11]: My wife had, like nine cats growing up.
Dave [0:17:12]: They all got eaten and we didn't wanna.
Dave [0:17:14]: We don't wanna go through that trauma.
Dave [0:17:15]: It's true.
Dave [0:17:20]: True story.
Dave [0:17:20]: True story.
Casey [0:17:21]: Got eaten can by what?
Dave [0:17:23]: Like, I don't know, like, raccoons raccoons, coyote, You know.
Dave [0:17:26]: Yeah.
Dave [0:17:26]: Just give vermont stuff.
Casey [0:17:28]: Yeah.
Casey [0:17:28]: My cats are went.
Casey [0:17:29]: She would never...
Casey [0:17:30]: She wouldn't survive a minute outside.
Dave [0:17:32]: So how how did you figure out it...
Dave [0:17:33]: How did you figure out Ab?
Casey [0:17:35]: I haven't what do you mean?
Dave [0:17:37]: Oh, you have.
Dave [0:17:38]: Okay.
Dave [0:17:38]: To someone you have.
Dave [0:17:39]: You're head of ABM at a multi billion dollar revenue company.
Dave [0:17:43]: You have you have more people on your team, which is one subset of a bigger team than a lot of people listeners have on the whole mark gaming team.
Dave [0:17:51]: You're you're clearly someone, my friend.
Dave [0:17:52]: I hate to tell you that.
Casey [0:17:54]: Oh, gosh.
Casey [0:17:54]: I know I was kinda reading this, like, a brief and I say, oh, wow.
Casey [0:17:58]: That sounds really impressive this person.
Casey [0:18:00]: Okay.
Casey [0:18:01]: So unfortunately, and I'm gonna be a broken record.
Casey [0:18:05]: The crux of the ABM is still sales alignment.
Casey [0:18:07]: You know, sales comes from the bottom up in terms of a deal.
Casey [0:18:11]: Like, I just gotta find the right person and get them on the phone.
Casey [0:18:14]: And marketing comes from the top down where they're like, I gotta influence this whole account or, like, this whole...
Casey [0:18:19]: I it actually not even account, but, like, Tam.
Casey [0:18:22]: Like, I gotta influence everyone in this Tam and it's and it's...
Casey [0:18:25]: It the...
Casey [0:18:26]: To me that's too big of a a a task to pull off.
Casey [0:18:29]: Like, that's just for me.
Casey [0:18:31]: That it is important at brand is important at at large companies, you know, Nike needs to put a bunch of billboards everywhere.
Casey [0:18:37]: Coca Cola needs a lot of brand recognition.
Dave [0:18:39]: Yeah.
Dave [0:18:39]: But, no.
Dave [0:18:40]: I get what you're saying that that's not your job.
Dave [0:18:41]: Your specific job is to generate sales meetings essentially.
Casey [0:18:47]: Yeah.
Casey [0:18:47]: Well, and to influence the right group of people.
Casey [0:18:53]: Influence has been a big word in my mind lately.
Casey [0:18:55]: It's not just anyone at the account.
Casey [0:18:58]: I have...
Casey [0:18:59]: I have...
Casey [0:18:59]: So I I think he'll just find this fun, but, like, I have a new new person on my team.
Casey [0:19:04]: He's an individual contributor.
Casey [0:19:06]: You know, he's a level down for me.
Casey [0:19:08]: He's awesome.
Casey [0:19:08]: And recently, a a vendor came to Town.
Casey [0:19:11]: And you know, they're kinda trying to upsell us or, like, you know, figure out what we want in our next purchase with them.
Casey [0:19:16]: And I was like, hey Can my team come?
Casey [0:19:19]: Like, can this person come can anyone at my office come.
Casey [0:19:22]: And they're like, yeah.
Casey [0:19:23]: Course Like, we'll take them all dinner.
Casey [0:19:24]: We'll do the whole Tbr for them.
Casey [0:19:25]: And if they had said, oh, no.
Casey [0:19:28]: We're just doing, like, director level.
Casey [0:19:29]: Or we're just doing, you know, we just wanna get this.
Casey [0:19:32]: Little...
Casey [0:19:33]: Would they know that I would have no idea, like, I I would be deferring to this person?
Casey [0:19:37]: I would be going and taking whatever this lender told me.
Casey [0:19:40]: Telling that person saying hey I know that you know more about this to me more about this in me?
Casey [0:19:45]: Can you tell me what we should do Because I want the opinions of everyone on my team, they all have different special specialties.
Casey [0:19:51]: This was specifically for a Dsp and the guy been advertising.
Casey [0:19:54]: So if they had said, like, you know, oh, no.
Casey [0:19:57]: The the buying group is just you and Hillary and whoever.
Casey [0:19:59]: Like, if they had kind of limited it, they would have missed out on basically the whole deal because I wouldn't have known what to do with all the information they presented me.
Casey [0:20:07]: This way, I this guy was like, I know we should do this.
Casey [0:20:09]: We should purchase that.
Casey [0:20:10]: We should...
Casey [0:20:11]: This is how we should construct the next contract.
Casey [0:20:13]: So influence of the right people, you can't define it by titles you can't define it by, you know, the...
Casey [0:20:20]: Who's engaged at any any given time.
Casey [0:20:21]: It comes from the account itself and from the sales side.
Casey [0:20:26]: And sales knows who is an influencer.
Casey [0:20:28]: Sales knows that this guy listens to this woman in a meeting, and she's the one you need to get on the phone.
Casey [0:20:33]: So, like, it's like a backwards way of thinking about marketing.
Casey [0:20:36]: It's it's from the bottom up not like the tam down.
Dave [0:20:40]: Understood.
Dave [0:20:40]: So...
Dave [0:20:40]: But would those things be pot the thing I always wonder about, especially when you get to a bigger company.
Dave [0:20:45]: Like, I love the concept of ABM Again, I said say this in every episode.
Dave [0:20:49]: One person, it's my favorite story ever.
Dave [0:20:52]: I got a one star review for this podcast one time and this guy was like, how was this guy...
Dave [0:20:57]: This guy was a Vp marketing.
Dave [0:20:58]: Doesn't know anything about marketing.
Dave [0:20:59]: He asked questions about the most basic stuff.
Dave [0:21:01]: I...
Dave [0:21:03]: Yeah, you know, whatever.
Casey [0:21:05]: Okay sounds fun.
Dave [0:21:06]: He doesn't have two hundred thousand followers.
Dave [0:21:07]: Like, I do.
Dave [0:21:08]: Let me tell you.
Dave [0:21:09]: You can't...
Dave [0:21:11]: You're not on Instagram.
Dave [0:21:12]: We'll talk about that later.
Dave [0:21:13]: Interesting.
Casey [0:21:15]: We're reading comments it?
Dave [0:21:17]: Oh, yes.
Dave [0:21:17]: So absolutely.
Dave [0:21:18]: I'm a human.
Dave [0:21:19]: Are you kidding me?
Dave [0:21:20]: Sometimes I read comments, and then they they eat me alive for, like, three days, and then Leah is finally like, are you okay and I'm like, no.
Dave [0:21:26]: Some some mean bert, some guy...
Dave [0:21:28]: That I was bald and
Casey [0:21:32]: do they...
Casey [0:21:32]: Did they keep you up a night like do?
Dave [0:21:35]: Sometimes, it depends on what's going on, lately, no, but there's definitely been things that have kept me up at night.
Dave [0:21:41]: My issue is I try to say, I try to pretend that they don't bother me.
Dave [0:21:47]: And so I push it down.
Dave [0:21:49]: I'm like, I'm good.
Dave [0:21:50]: I'm, but like, I...
Dave [0:21:51]: It's so obvious that that is eating at me.
Dave [0:21:54]: U.
Dave [0:21:54]: But it's a hard thing because, like, there's no I just wanna respond back, but never that never is...
Dave [0:22:02]: That never works.
Dave [0:22:02]: And so, like, the only thing is to just say nothing.
Casey [0:22:07]: And feel your feelings.
Dave [0:22:09]: It's so dumb.
Dave [0:22:10]: It's about marketing.
Dave [0:22:11]: Like, give me, it might, like, literally thank you for other people in my life because I tell them about, like, the message some people comments or whatever it's like, dude do people really care that much?
Dave [0:22:21]: Like you work in marketing?
Dave [0:22:22]: Like, nobody cares.
Dave [0:22:23]: And I, like, No.
Dave [0:22:24]: Trust me.
Dave [0:22:25]: Like, people have literally gotten in insane debates in my comments and, like said personal things because I said, you know, you should never get your content or someone.
Dave [0:22:33]: Is, like screw you buddy.
Dave [0:22:34]: You know, like, it gets real serious.
Dave [0:22:36]: And then, Because the Internet's a crazy place, Dude, I I made a post on the Super Bowl this year.
Dave [0:22:43]: I made a egregious, so obviously, Ai.
Dave [0:22:48]: I wrote, like, surprise.
Dave [0:22:49]: I took a last minute trip to the Super Bowl because my team not closing deals, and so you know what I gotta do as a founder.
Dave [0:22:54]: I gotta go myself.
Dave [0:22:55]: Tough life having to go to the Super Bowl, and I had Gemini and I, like, mock up a picture of me.
Dave [0:23:01]: The whole stadium was upside down the words or backwards.
Casey [0:23:04]: Last Yes.
Dave [0:23:05]: It made it to Linkedin Luna to, like, viral reddit.
Dave [0:23:08]: And, like, the whole Internet was dunking on me.
Dave [0:23:11]: And I was like, you fucking idiot.
Dave [0:23:13]: Like, this whole thing was made up.
Dave [0:23:14]: This was fake.
Dave [0:23:15]: Like, you're all dunking on a fake thing.
Dave [0:23:17]: Like, this is not real.
Dave [0:23:18]: And everyone everyone's was like, wow.
Dave [0:23:20]: I hate people like this and then, like, people look you up and see who are.
Dave [0:23:23]: And then I saw another store.
Dave [0:23:25]: This is so related to this last week, I see someone posted a picture of a Monet painting.
Casey [0:23:30]: Yeah.
Dave [0:23:31]: And they posted it and they said, check out my Ai rendition of this Monet, and the Internet just went bananas.
Dave [0:23:38]: Was like, oh, you can tell.
Dave [0:23:39]: You can tell that's a that's a fake mona.
Dave [0:23:41]: You can tell.
Dave [0:23:42]: Look at the painting and I was like, No I'm just kidding this is a real one.
Dave [0:23:44]: And, like, So the...
Dave [0:23:47]: I have to remind myself of these things.
Dave [0:23:49]: But, yes, of course, those comments bother me and then it makes me actually think about, imagine.
Dave [0:23:52]: With someone who is actually famous, like the level of Things they see on the Internet imagine being Taylor swift or Justin Bieber or.
Dave [0:24:02]: You know, whatever is happening on Bravo, like, it's a it's insane.
Casey [0:24:07]: U.
Casey [0:24:07]: It makes you...
Casey [0:24:09]: It makes you feel like, oh, even the the the people who you think Capital are, like, worthy and empathy.
Casey [0:24:14]: It's hard.
Casey [0:24:15]: Because I think some people...
Casey [0:24:16]: Like, the people who are commenting on their stuff would things, like, it's a billionaire.
Casey [0:24:19]: I don't care about this person.
Casey [0:24:21]: Like, they're they're fine for the rest of their life.
Casey [0:24:22]: Yeah.
Casey [0:24:23]: But you who know that it's actually...
Casey [0:24:25]: Like, the money isn't about, the money isn't the end goal.
Casey [0:24:28]: It's actually, like personal fulfillment.
Casey [0:24:29]: You know that oh, actually, a comment like that can really tear you.
Casey [0:24:34]: And and also, like, it is just marketing, but you care about marketing, and you're really good at marketing, and it's important to you.
Casey [0:24:40]: So, like, that's the...
Dave [0:24:42]: But people will be like,
Casey [0:24:44]: Oh, yeah.
Dave [0:24:44]: Of course, you said that.
Dave [0:24:45]: Look at this.
Dave [0:24:46]: Look at this.
Dave [0:24:46]: Seven years ago, this guy worked at Hubspot.
Dave [0:24:49]: And I know some people at hubspot, and I know how they do things You know what Mean?
Dave [0:24:52]: It's like, they just make up stories.
Dave [0:24:54]: And The number one thing people...
Dave [0:24:58]: I Ice I feel when people actually meet me in person at one of our events are like, whoa, you're way nicer and funnier and like, I kinda wanna hang out with you more than I thought I would based on how you write online.
Dave [0:25:09]: And I'm like, that's not a meat problem.
Dave [0:25:12]: That is how you are projecting who I am.
Casey [0:25:16]: Mh.
Casey [0:25:16]: It making me feel really good about coming on this podcast and exposing myself to eventual comments.
Dave [0:25:23]: There's not...
Dave [0:25:23]: I mean, there's, like, literally, I get one comment on Youtube, and it's like, Ai.
Dave [0:25:27]: And it's like, this podcast rocks.
Dave [0:25:29]: What...
Dave [0:25:33]: You're good.
Dave [0:25:34]: You're good.
Dave [0:25:34]: They...
Dave [0:25:35]: This is turned into a therapy session for me.
Dave [0:25:37]: Thank you for that.
Casey [0:25:39]: Happens.
Casey [0:25:39]: Oh, and and to your point about, like, how have I figured out Ab.
Casey [0:25:42]: I haven't figured out Ab, and I think that ABM is new, but marketing management is actually really important to me at this time, like, that whole twenty three marketers thing, like, those are the people that I that I care about, and those are the...
Casey [0:25:57]: That's, like, the team that I wanna foster.
Casey [0:25:59]: You know, like, in Is what we do, but the team is my number one.
Dave [0:26:05]: Yeah.
Dave [0:26:05]: I I mean, that makes sense.
Dave [0:26:06]: Every...
Dave [0:26:06]: That's that's because you've evolved from, like, the individual doe.
Dave [0:26:09]: Right.
Dave [0:26:10]: To the run...
Dave [0:26:11]: You run a team thing and and everything now at this stage is mostly a who a who not a how problem.
Dave [0:26:16]: You know how to do it?
Dave [0:26:18]: It's about who?
Dave [0:26:18]: And what are you gonna enable these twenty three people.
Dave [0:26:20]: And if we got twenty three, you know, if I'm your boss, saying like, wait.
Dave [0:26:24]: Why do if you have...
Dave [0:26:25]: If we have twenty three people on the team, why are you doing all the things, Casey, your job is to be the team leader, and that's a that's a different that's a different role.
Dave [0:26:32]: But I wanna, before that rant about the the comments and stuff, we...
Dave [0:26:36]: I'm just the concept of ABM in general, though, like, as a as a go to market strategy.
Dave [0:26:41]: Mh.
Dave [0:26:42]: I do love it because it's it seemingly removes a lot of the Bs from marketing around credit and attribution because it's it's framed as, like, Sales is going after this list of a hundred accounts, like, the way that I explain ABM and I'm I'm not this guy, so, you know, feel free to edit is like, sales is going after these a hundred accounts.
Dave [0:27:00]: Our job is to help them get into these hundred accounts.
Dave [0:27:03]: Whatever that may mean.
Casey [0:27:05]: Perfect.
Dave [0:27:06]: And we measure success by not what marketing did, but, like, did we book meetings and did what percentage at the end of the year or the whatever the cycle is, how many of those...
Dave [0:27:16]: Hey, we booked we...
Dave [0:27:17]: You know, we closed seventy five percent of our hundred, like, that was our goal, like, marketing win sales wins.
Dave [0:27:21]: Am I roughly directional right?
Casey [0:27:24]: Completely correct.
Dave [0:27:25]: Okay.
Casey [0:27:26]: And, like, how could it be any other way too?
Casey [0:27:28]: You know, like, if marketing is over here doing stuff and sales is over here, closing deals on totally different stuff, It's like,
Dave [0:27:35]: Well, because most people don't work at your company, They don't have the lens you have, and I think most people, what happens is, like, sure, that sounds great on this podcast dave, but, like, how do I actually do that, and how do I get credit because we wrote this article and then, like, are the sales reps using my article?
Dave [0:27:51]: How is my article influencing deals, but.
Dave [0:27:54]: You know, it takes two hundred eleven days to...
Dave [0:27:57]: That's the average B2B buying cycle and so so much happens in those days and not all my touches lead to meetings and so how do I prove that?
Dave [0:28:03]: And so on the other end of the spectrum, and then you have, like, inbound and high volume and very...
Dave [0:28:07]: We we love P type of stuff because it's very...
Dave [0:28:11]: It's much more measurable.
Dave [0:28:12]: We're gonna run a bunch of ads.
Dave [0:28:13]: We're gonna drive traffic.
Dave [0:28:14]: We're gonna get free sign ups.
Dave [0:28:16]: But then that motion has a bunch of other challenges, you know, grass is always greener, but the mechanics of this one make a ton of sense in that, like, marketing job is to help us get into these accounts.
Casey [0:28:27]: Yes.
Casey [0:28:27]: And I I will say, It's not either or.
Casey [0:28:29]: And, you know, we are an ABM team.
Casey [0:28:31]: In a team of broader demand gen brand marketers.
Casey [0:28:34]: We're just sales isn't thinking about all those things.
Casey [0:28:37]: Sales is just, you know, we're we're there with them and the and the field marketers saying, like, here's what we're gonna do to get into these accounts.
Casey [0:28:43]: So the the broader Tam and the And the all those though that those still happen at...
Casey [0:28:48]: That sounds like, those are still important.
Casey [0:28:49]: It's just that we have this added layer of sales connection and, like, doubling down onto to your point, the hundred accounts that they...
Casey [0:28:56]: They're really trying to get into.
Dave [0:28:58]: Okay.
Dave [0:28:58]: Let's talk about place.
Dave [0:29:00]: So we've kinda like explained the world for people.
Dave [0:29:02]: I I wanna find...
Dave [0:29:05]: I wanna hear about some interesting plays that you run and and things that you've done.
Dave [0:29:10]: I don't know how to ask the question in the right way.
Dave [0:29:12]: But people wanna know.
Dave [0:29:13]: Okay.
Dave [0:29:13]: Got it.
Dave [0:29:13]: Yep.
Dave [0:29:13]: So we're gonna target these a hundred accounts?
Dave [0:29:15]: Like, how.
Dave [0:29:16]: They love the how.
Dave [0:29:17]: Could you talk about some of the how?
Casey [0:29:19]: Yeah.
Casey [0:29:19]: Okay.
Casey [0:29:20]: So the how is actually...
Casey [0:29:22]: Okay.
Casey [0:29:23]: Can I talk about where we're going with our plays instead of like, place we run in the past?
Casey [0:29:28]: Because every...
Dave [0:29:29]: Yes.
Dave [0:29:29]: But, because so much is changing.
Dave [0:29:31]: So so we can...
Dave [0:29:32]: Like, a lot is changing because of Ai and yada yada.
Dave [0:29:35]: The...
Dave [0:29:35]: What do we say during Covid, these unprecedented and times.
Dave [0:29:38]: It's like that, but for Ai.
Dave [0:29:39]: Yeah.
Casey [0:29:40]: So where we're going and it's to your point about...
Casey [0:29:42]: The end user experience and, like, last podcast we talk talked about how the business measures in terms of how many clicks, how many views, how many whatever.
Casey [0:29:50]: Right?
Casey [0:29:51]: And that's a business measurement.
Casey [0:29:52]: That's something that you can justify your existence at the chain with.
Casey [0:29:55]: But what the customer or the prospect or the recipient of your marketing cares about is, is it interesting to me.
Casey [0:30:02]: Do I wanna keep reading?
Casey [0:30:03]: Do I wanna keep coming back for the next day of year head podcast?
Casey [0:30:06]: And that's actually how we're...
Casey [0:30:08]: Flipping and Hillary is leading this vision.
Casey [0:30:11]: I'm I'm simply along for it to operate on the ride, But and contribute a little bit.
Casey [0:30:16]: But it's not marketing from the inside out of Snowflake.
Casey [0:30:20]: It's saying like, what channels do the end users were trying to reach, consider their favorite, we're consider the ones that they go to the most often.
Casey [0:30:29]: Like, Dave Gerhardt hurts on linkedin a lot.
Casey [0:30:30]: If I were to target Dave Gerhardt, I would target him with Linkedin ads.
Casey [0:30:34]: Casey is not on Instagram.
Casey [0:30:35]: So I'm not gonna target her on Instagram.
Dave [0:30:37]: Yeah.
Dave [0:30:37]: What is...
Dave [0:30:38]: So give me some examples for Snowflake?
Dave [0:30:39]: So we're where does Snowflake, like, potential customers hang out just to make it real.
Casey [0:30:44]: Linkedin out in the world.
Casey [0:30:46]: So we're doing out of home marketing, and there there are companies now, like one screen Ai and Admiral who will do digital out of home marketing, and you can geo locate it.
Casey [0:30:56]: So if you have an account you're targeting, you can fence it in and and target them there?
Dave [0:31:00]: What might that ad say, like, try Snowflake?
Dave [0:31:02]: Like, how do you...
Dave [0:31:03]: Is there, like, an offer, especially at the enterprises like, you know, go get this ebook?
Dave [0:31:07]: Or is it just we'd measure that over time by who saw the ads and that cohort did they book with sales?
Casey [0:31:14]: Okay.
Casey [0:31:14]: Let's talk about a play then.
Casey [0:31:15]: We recently did a deploy where we did a a field marketing event, So we did, like, a a, a hands on lab of Snowflake within a customer account.
Casey [0:31:24]: We added out of home marketing to that, so billboards and Geo fence digital ads.
Dave [0:31:29]: This is for one account.
Casey [0:31:30]: For one account.
Casey [0:31:31]: So...
Casey [0:31:32]: But you can do it for cohort of.
Casey [0:31:33]: Like you know where all your accounts are if you wanna do it and, you know, in Vermont in, you know, s Vermont.
Casey [0:31:39]: You can you can locate it there.
Casey [0:31:40]: And then we...
Casey [0:31:41]: So we ran the field marketing event.
Casey [0:31:43]: We did a gifting follow it.
Casey [0:31:44]: We did an email campaign with Sdr str.
Casey [0:31:47]: So so we we multiplied the effect of all of these things.
Casey [0:31:51]: And by the end of the hands on lab, and we have a new product called Cocoa, which is a an Ai assistant or to to say it in a marketing anyway.
Casey [0:32:00]: It's much more complicated I that.
Casey [0:32:02]: But by the end of that, we had doubled the amount of users of that tool within that account.
Casey [0:32:07]: And and all of that is a combined effort.
Casey [0:32:10]: We're not trying to parse out.
Casey [0:32:11]: Like, this person saw this, and this person went to the event, and this person, you know, received if we're saying, like, we surrounded this place and we doubled our effectiveness within that account.
Casey [0:32:21]: Like, it can't be about attribution and pricing things out.
Casey [0:32:25]: It's hard.
Casey [0:32:26]: That that's a that's a company mindset thing.
Casey [0:32:28]: So I'm not gonna say it's, like, easy just tell your boss that you don't care about attribution anymore.
Dave [0:32:34]: What just curious.
Dave [0:32:34]: So that I'd love that.
Dave [0:32:35]: This is the stuff people love.
Dave [0:32:37]: That's a perfect example.
Dave [0:32:37]: Like you told the whole campaign.
Dave [0:32:38]: We we heard the goal.
Dave [0:32:40]: Yada.
Dave [0:32:40]: Yada.
Dave [0:32:40]: Is there like a time box on that Is it's, like, we're gonna do this quarterly?
Dave [0:32:44]: Because I think marketers that I've interviewed It seems like we run best when it's, like, We have a hard time when things are kinda like always on, but when we're like, this quarter, we're gonna do a blitz to achieve x.
Dave [0:32:55]: Like, that seems to work really well for some reason.
Casey [0:32:58]: Yes.
Casey [0:32:58]: There has to be an end date.
Casey [0:33:00]: There has to be a Sprint mindset, because you're also working with sales.
Casey [0:33:03]: And sales doesn't care about your evergreen campaign.
Casey [0:33:05]: They wanna know that on this date on the seventeenth, this is launching, and we all need to be there to support it, and then, you know, we we all go focus on something else afterwards.
Casey [0:33:14]: So a hundred percent.
Casey [0:33:15]: It's there is a time box to it.
Casey [0:33:17]: This one was, like, within the two weeks that the event happened we measured all these things engagement at the account intent at the account and then users of the of the product.
Dave [0:33:25]: Do you think...
Dave [0:33:25]: Is there...
Dave [0:33:26]: Do you have any lessons on, like, are there too many things going on sometimes is it, like, one or two campaigns really focus and executed really well.
Dave [0:33:34]: Like, that type of thing that you just kinda of explained that package.
Dave [0:33:39]: Is that move the needle more then we're just kinda, like, doing lots of marketing to lots and lots of accounts Or is it both?
Dave [0:33:47]: There's just some element of, like, there's a bunch of always on stuff that...
Dave [0:33:50]: That's always happening?
Casey [0:33:51]: Yeah.
Casey [0:33:51]: It really depends on the company.
Casey [0:33:53]: If it's fantasy always on works.
Casey [0:33:55]: You need to create mind share and repeat and just, you know, repetition in people's minds.
Casey [0:34:00]: If it's like a swarm, and you're, like, this account needs just a wake up call, boom, like, swarm them with a bunch of stuff in a couple weeks.
Casey [0:34:08]: And that's the beauty of the account based side, and also the user user side.
Casey [0:34:12]: Like, you have to think about what the end users of the account are experiencing from your company and then do something to react to that.
Casey [0:34:18]: Like, if they think you're a H, whatever company, do something crazy.
Casey [0:34:22]: And, like, you know, do a campaign that kind of shocks them.
Casey [0:34:25]: If you've had a certain event with an account, and it's, like, they they think of you in a certain way, do something that's at the opposite that kind of changes their opinion of you.
Casey [0:34:33]: It definitely depends on the account and on the end user ship, which is what makes So important.
Casey [0:34:38]: It really is customized to the account.
Casey [0:34:40]: ABM is not running digital ads for, like, this set of accounts.
Casey [0:34:43]: It's not.
Casey [0:34:44]: It's not the same thing.
Dave [0:34:45]: Yeah.
Dave [0:34:45]: That was the lot people love that.
Dave [0:34:47]: They're, like, that was the lie.
Dave [0:34:48]: ABM vendors told us that ABM is running ads, and it's not.
Dave [0:34:52]: So I I have some...
Dave [0:34:54]: I I have some things in our notes that I wanna...
Dave [0:34:56]: I wanna reference also, but just...
Dave [0:34:58]: It seems like, the the font is, like, getting to do all the marketing for these accounts, but kind of the big thing is identifying the count...
Dave [0:35:05]: The accounts and it isn't it any any wisdom on that can you go too big and you go too small I...
Dave [0:35:11]: I would say most people are not listening to this are not Snowflakes.
Dave [0:35:14]: So, like.
Dave [0:35:15]: And it's tough to get asked the right question without a specific question, You know, like, hey, we have ten thousand cats, but any lessons learned around just like, how, you know, setting that list and figure out what accounts to go after?
Casey [0:35:27]: Have you ever read the goal by Eli Gold?
Casey [0:35:29]: No.
Casey [0:35:31]: Okay.
Casey [0:35:32]: Top marketing book, top business book.
Casey [0:35:35]: It was recommended to me by a former CEO.
Casey [0:35:37]: Of that I was working for.
Casey [0:35:39]: The goal is a book that combines a physicist learnings with a a business person who runs a a manufacturing company's mindset about the the factory that he runs.
Casey [0:35:53]: Crazy setup.
Casey [0:35:54]: It's just these two guys and it's, like, a story about them.
Casey [0:35:56]: But the...
Casey [0:35:57]: What was happening is that things were getting hung up or, like, stopped a different phases of this factory manufacturing process.
Casey [0:36:05]: So, like, they'd have too many of this part building up here, and then it wouldn't come together with this part because there wasn't enough of this part here, and everything we get caught at different places in the process.
Casey [0:36:14]: And it amounted to budget waste.
Casey [0:36:17]: Right?
Casey [0:36:18]: Like, you have too many of this part, not enough of this part.
Casey [0:36:20]: Nothing's getting put together.
Casey [0:36:21]: The machines are breaking.
Casey [0:36:22]: Like, it doesn't work.
Casey [0:36:24]: And the the physicists came and kind of through this soc democratic method throughout the book, taught this business person, but it those hang up are the the problem.
Casey [0:36:33]: So if you're sending too much demand to sales, that's actually a problem.
Casey [0:36:38]: I know It doesn't sound like a problem, but it it is just as much as not sending enough demand to sales.
Casey [0:36:42]: Because from a business perspective, The marketing team is, as you know, better than I responsible for the budget that they are using to generate this demand.
Casey [0:36:50]: So the sales team...
Casey [0:36:51]: The the people in the sales team where your sales process, process is actually the quote unquote bottleneck to the amount of accounts you should be targeting.
Casey [0:37:00]: If you target a thousand accounts, and you get a hundred meetings, and there's two salespeople, those meetings gonna be crap, they're not gonna go anywhere.
Casey [0:37:07]: And the sales team, even if the meetings weren't crap, aren't gonna have enough time to follow through on all those accounts to the point where they come to a close, And actually.
Casey [0:37:13]: So if a salesperson, and it depends on what level of sales are at.
Casey [0:37:17]: If you're an enterprise or a major person or if you're a P, like, fast and and smaller deals, you need to consider their bandwidth as the the right, and it and it takes time and testing, but that's the right amount of accounts to target.
Casey [0:37:31]: So when...
Casey [0:37:31]: When one salesperson has a hundred accounts, and they're just trying to get new business in the door, we might only target ten of them because we know if we set meetings in four of them, which is kind of our run rate.
Casey [0:37:41]: Those meetings will be high quality and the sales rep will be able to carry them through through completion.
Casey [0:37:45]: If the sales rep has one account, they're just responsible for Disney.
Casey [0:37:49]: We know that just one meeting within Disney could be worth a million dollars and could take those sales reps time for the next six months.
Casey [0:37:54]: So...
Casey [0:37:55]: And we can spend more money on that to make sure that it...
Casey [0:37:57]: It's worth it.
Casey [0:37:58]: So the sales the sales team is actually the bottleneck.
Casey [0:38:01]: To the...
Casey [0:38:02]: And and the the deciding factor to the amount of accounts that you target.
Casey [0:38:05]: And again, it takes testing, but that's how we think about it.
Dave [0:38:09]: That was so good.
Casey [0:38:10]: Oh, good.
Dave [0:38:11]: I love...
Dave [0:38:11]: I just love...
Dave [0:38:12]: I wrote about this in my newsletter last week, but I...
Dave [0:38:14]: There's I didn't know what it was called, but it's called complexity bias when we favor answers that seem, you know, very dah at all.
Dave [0:38:22]: And, like, you just gave...
Dave [0:38:23]: I think you...
Dave [0:38:24]: We could, like, cut out that answer, and that's the perfect answer to, like, how do I know how many accounts to target.
Dave [0:38:30]: Right?
Dave [0:38:31]: Which is your question and tell correct me if I'm not understanding this right way is like, well, how many sales reps do you have right now?
Casey [0:38:39]: Yep.
Dave [0:38:40]: Oh, we have four.
Dave [0:38:41]: Okay.
Dave [0:38:42]: Still need to get more information and how many meetings can they handle in a day?
Dave [0:38:46]: Yep Okay.
Dave [0:38:47]: They can do about five meetings a day, but they also have do some process.
Dave [0:38:50]: You know, are they five meetings a.
Dave [0:38:51]: So therefore, we could target this minute.
Dave [0:38:54]: So everything can be worked backwards.
Dave [0:38:55]: So if you saw someone post a question in my community that I was like, Our target list of accounts is, you know, we've have ten thousand accounts.
Dave [0:39:01]: I feel like it's too much.
Dave [0:39:02]: That we don't know the answer until we get into the sales productivity part of it.
Dave [0:39:07]: So Right.
Dave [0:39:07]: So you really have to think of it as this system.
Casey [0:39:09]: Great.
Casey [0:39:09]: If you had three hundred sales reps, maybe ten thousand would be the right number.
Dave [0:39:15]: But there's also even Nuance there because it's like, What are resell?
Dave [0:39:18]: What is the sales process like?
Dave [0:39:19]: What do they have to do to book a meeting?
Dave [0:39:21]: Like, there's there's lots of things, and that's not a perfect thing in a spreadsheet that require some messy kind of math and Yeah.
Dave [0:39:28]: A lot of this is, like, I'm gonna check the way out that that's like, you know, ten mile an hour Ride play off.
Dave [0:39:33]: Like ten mile an hour wind.
Dave [0:39:34]: Okay?
Dave [0:39:34]: No.
Dave [0:39:35]: So that's that's not perfect.
Dave [0:39:36]: Or you have to make some assumptions, build some assumptions around a plan and then you're gonna go.
Dave [0:39:40]: Love that timeless list.
Dave [0:39:41]: We're gonna...
Dave [0:39:41]: Let's just hang up that.
Dave [0:39:43]: That's great.
Dave [0:39:43]: Okay.
Dave [0:39:43]: So that was really useful.
Dave [0:39:45]: I like when people give advice that's timeless.
Dave [0:39:47]: So a lot of people also ask, like, where would you start for ABM something that you've shared with us in the past Is this idea that this is...
Dave [0:39:54]: These are in my notes.
Dave [0:39:54]: Kc zero budget starting point one to one landing pages.
Dave [0:39:58]: So work with the sales...
Dave [0:39:59]: You know, basically, you're working the sales team.
Dave [0:40:01]: I think it's always gonna start with email and outreach at at at at some level.
Dave [0:40:05]: Other low lift plays direct mail with a clear offer Qr codes, small curated dinners organized specific pain point customer to customer conversations Yeah.
Dave [0:40:13]: Yeah.
Dave [0:40:13]: Everyone's already done this?
Dave [0:40:14]: Where's where's ABM going?
Dave [0:40:16]: What's what's possible now because of all the innovations we've been promised because of Ai.
Dave [0:40:22]: What's what do you think's happening?
Dave [0:40:23]: What's next Ai is agent ABM gonna be a thing.
Dave [0:40:26]: What's what's...
Dave [0:40:27]: How this gonna look?
Casey [0:40:28]: I just wrote up a a document for hillary called agent Ab, and she commented on it, and it was so fun.
Casey [0:40:34]: It it will be enterprise marketing in general will be agent.
Casey [0:40:38]: Eventually.
Casey [0:40:39]: And the clicking around is what I wanna eliminate, for my team.
Casey [0:40:43]: Right now, that's the first step is automating existing tasks.
Casey [0:40:46]: I think the next step is amplifying sales in what they're already doing.
Casey [0:40:52]: And then the third step is new revenue drivers.
Casey [0:40:55]: So we're we're building all these little agents and things, and and the first step is get rid of the tasks that anyone can do.
Casey [0:41:02]: They don't...
Casey [0:41:03]: You know, I don't want my team spending time On clicking around.
Casey [0:41:05]: I think the last and the final, not the final state, but, like, what I'm hoping to get to is something that I think B2B does really well, I think Netflix does this really well as Hillary mentioned.
Casey [0:41:17]: When you log into Netflix, you've seen what you've already watched halfway.
Casey [0:41:21]: You've seen what you've watched in the past, and you are opting into that service.
Casey [0:41:26]: Today, marketing is very pushing something onto you with the goal of to our point earlier.
Casey [0:41:32]: Generating some kind of response.
Casey [0:41:34]: And and we measure it by like, oh, you know, two percent of people clicked on this thing.
Casey [0:41:38]: In the future, I think what will happen because we have so much data available to us and so much processing data or, processing capability through Ai.
Casey [0:41:46]: Is that Dave will receive messages in the way that Dave likes to receive messages.
Casey [0:41:50]: It won't be about how Snowflake likes to push out messages, it'll be about how Dave...
Casey [0:41:55]: The channels Dave receives them on, the channels that or or, sorry.
Casey [0:41:59]: The the content that you would enjoy.
Casey [0:42:01]: So Yeah.
Casey [0:42:02]: If the, you know, funny stuff, you don't wanna read it.
Casey [0:42:04]: No.
Dave [0:42:04]: The answer is none, how Dave likes to receives his marketing communications is none.
Dave [0:42:08]: I'm out.
Casey [0:42:10]: Right.
Casey [0:42:10]: Right.
Casey [0:42:10]: But...
Dave [0:42:11]: If I was your Ic, I would want this though.
Casey [0:42:13]: Right.
Casey [0:42:13]: You...
Casey [0:42:14]: It it's it's, like making marketing enjoyable for that.
Dave [0:42:17]: No there.
Dave [0:42:17]: I'm just being silly.
Dave [0:42:18]: You're totally doing the right thing.
Dave [0:42:19]: Yes.
Casey [0:42:20]: I not.
Casey [0:42:20]: But look what look making far getting enjoyable for the that end user is so, like, revolutionary to me.
Casey [0:42:25]: It's it it would...
Casey [0:42:25]: It's gonna be so hard to do.
Casey [0:42:27]: Imagine...
Dave [0:42:28]: It's not revolutionary.
Dave [0:42:29]: People we got seth Seth God is speaking on our at Drive this year, and he's been writing about this since the late nineties.
Dave [0:42:35]: He wrote a book called permission marketing, and he wrote a book called Purple Cow, and I think it's like, Yeah.
Dave [0:42:41]: When we talk about it on a podcast, like, doing remarkable marketing that make people actually wanna, like, wear your stuff, like, I have no affiliation with the ramp.
Dave [0:42:51]: They sent me a box of, like swag, and it was really good, like, an...
Dave [0:42:54]: I I was I I wore my Nike ramp hat on a run this morning.
Dave [0:42:59]: Why?
Dave [0:42:59]: Because it's a good hat.
Casey [0:43:04]: Because what
Dave [0:43:04]: we like to send out.
Dave [0:43:05]: We wanna send out the shit hat.
Dave [0:43:07]: We wanna send out the hat that is the lowest cost and because we can do the best math on it.
Dave [0:43:12]: And when it's the lowest cost.
Casey [0:43:14]: Right you
Dave [0:43:15]: know, the material is not good.
Dave [0:43:16]: It's just like, the the principles are the same.
Dave [0:43:18]: It's like, are you willing to an argue at an organization where you're actually going to be allowed to do remarkable marketing.
Dave [0:43:24]: And the last thing on this rant.
Dave [0:43:26]: Please.
Dave [0:43:26]: Thus a killed remarkable marketing does not mean send out a package of which that package takes more effort to recycle and throw out because of all the crap and packaging and stuffing in it I don't want your branded mug because I gotta open up this box and throw it all the confetti in it.
Dave [0:43:43]: So I'm sorry if that...
Dave [0:43:44]: You know, it puts a wrench in your branded mug plan, but that's my two cents.
Casey [0:43:48]: Yeah.
Casey [0:43:48]: Now.
Casey [0:43:49]: That it doesn't put any wrench it.
Casey [0:43:50]: I think we've done it well.
Casey [0:43:51]: For in person things.
Casey [0:43:53]: I think we've done it well for field events.
Casey [0:43:54]: I think we've done a well for gifts.
Casey [0:43:56]: I don't think we've done it for channels.
Casey [0:43:58]: I don't think we've said, I have a profile of Dave, and I know his preferred channel is at and that's how we're gonna cor him and not invest money in this other channel like email.
Casey [0:44:08]: I'm sure you hate an emails.
Casey [0:44:09]: But you do see Linkedin us because your Linkedin influencer and you know it's there.
Casey [0:44:12]: So, like, add an account.
Casey [0:44:14]: I think we have enough data and processing power now with Ai to say, this cohort of people, it doesn't matter if they're connected or not.
Casey [0:44:21]: It's not like a buying group, but we're saying this group of people is more likely to engage in this way.
Casey [0:44:25]: This group people is more likely to engage in this way.
Casey [0:44:27]: We're gonna do an AB test and see if we're right.
Casey [0:44:29]: And then we can service people in a in a preferred channel way.
Casey [0:44:34]: We've done it.
Casey [0:44:35]: We've done it for, you know, gifting for sure end field.
Casey [0:44:37]: But I think that the the channel aspect has had too much data to process in the past.
Casey [0:44:41]: It hasn't worked yet.
Casey [0:44:42]: And I think that that's the next step.
Casey [0:44:44]: Reason resolved?
Dave [0:44:46]: Yeah.
Dave [0:44:46]: That...
Dave [0:44:46]: I think that's smart.
Dave [0:44:47]: That makes sense.
Dave [0:44:48]: My thing on the email.
Dave [0:44:50]: It's not that I don't like email.
Dave [0:44:51]: That's just me being being silly.
Dave [0:44:52]: Obviously, you have to email someone if you're trying to sell them.
Dave [0:44:55]: I think it's just, like, how do I How do I stand out?
Dave [0:44:59]: How do I know that Dave is probably getting or whoever your dream customer is is getting lots of other ads, seeing lots of other ads and lots of other things in the feed?
Dave [0:45:07]: And so it's like, is another cold email gonna be the thing that moves the needle or do we need to kinda, like, go back to the drawing board a bit and, like, measure twice cut once and really think about the offer and think about the campaign versus what do you smell?
Casey [0:45:21]: I read I I read that who needs newsletter this morning from the the Cmo who said, you know, measure twice cut once.
Dave [0:45:27]: That was just on my brain.
Casey [0:45:28]: You're quoting your rant.
Casey [0:45:29]: Great.
Dave [0:45:30]: Love that.
Casey [0:45:31]: I also love the format of your newsletter where, like, you'll be ranting it out the middle, it'll say, like, sorry.
Casey [0:45:36]: I just realized I'm really passionate about this.
Casey [0:45:37]: It's like a run on sentence with a period at the end, and it's just written...
Casey [0:45:40]: You know it's from you then.
Casey [0:45:41]: You know, you know, it's you know, it's Dave.
Dave [0:45:44]: What's great is then I I take that dry off and I give it back to Claude.
Dave [0:45:47]: Claude like, oh, this is great.
Dave [0:45:48]: This sounds so much like you, Dave, and I'm like, thank you, Claude.
Casey [0:45:52]: Have you have you customized claude to to make it what you want.
Casey [0:45:56]: No.
Casey [0:45:56]: Okay.
Casey [0:45:57]: Hasn't been working yet yet.
Dave [0:45:59]: It's not possible.
Dave [0:45:59]: So so...
Dave [0:46:00]: Well, here's what I do.
Dave [0:46:01]: What I what I will do is I will take this transcript.
Dave [0:46:04]: So eventually, this will be a newsletter.
Dave [0:46:05]: I'm gonna take my transcript, and I'm gonna say, Actually, it's all gonna be in Whisper flow.
Dave [0:46:10]: So I'm gonna hold down function on my keyboard.
Dave [0:46:12]: And I'm gonna say, hey, So I I I want your help getting a draft started for, my newsletter on Tuesday.
Dave [0:46:18]: I wanna write about ABM.
Dave [0:46:19]: I had Casey Patterson.
Dave [0:46:20]: She's this amazing woman from Snowflake, and she's done this and that, and I'm gonna give the whole prep doc, and I'm gonna say, in the conversation at about thirty four minutes, Casey talked about how she thinks about defining targets and accounts, and I talked about how I really like that Can you help me organize the notes from that?
Dave [0:46:38]: And I wanna take that, and I wanna pull out three key takeaways plus that?
Dave [0:46:41]: Can you get that back to me?
Dave [0:46:42]: Which is amazing.
Dave [0:46:44]: From there, then, I'll be like, yep.
Dave [0:46:46]: That that was awesome.
Dave [0:46:47]: Then I'm like, no.
Dave [0:46:48]: No.
Dave [0:46:48]: I'll pull the direct quote.
Dave [0:46:49]: You fucking in.
Dave [0:46:51]: And pull the direct quote.
Dave [0:46:52]: Listen to me, Claude, then I'm, like, pull a direct quote.
Dave [0:46:56]: That's not what she said.
Dave [0:46:57]: Pull it.
Dave [0:46:57]: And then I put it in there, and then then I go in write.
Dave [0:47:01]: And so now I have, like, I have the meat of this, and then I'll go in and I'll be my silly self in the intro.
Dave [0:47:08]: And I think that works perfectly.
Dave [0:47:09]: And I also think it's not like, oh, Dave's using a newsletter to write.
Dave [0:47:13]: It's like, no, I'm I'm running a very intentional player, which is like, I'm using the conversations I have.
Dave [0:47:17]: I'm not a thought leader.
Dave [0:47:19]: I'm not an expert.
Dave [0:47:20]: I'm not an expert anymore.
Dave [0:47:21]: So I talk to people who are doing the things, and then I use that to write the newsletter and I sprinkle in my commentary.
Dave [0:47:27]: And what's cool that Claude can't replicate is I could be like, you know what?
Dave [0:47:30]: There's actually a pattern.
Dave [0:47:31]: This person also talked about this person talking about.
Dave [0:47:34]: And I can say to Claude.
Dave [0:47:35]: Hey, three episodes go, I had Drew from ramp on Drew runs ABM at ramp.
Dave [0:47:40]: I think he said something similar.
Dave [0:47:41]: Can you grab that quote for me?
Dave [0:47:42]: And I think this is what's fun.
Dave [0:47:44]: This is has made the Ai stuff fun for me.
Dave [0:47:46]: This is not Ai.
Dave [0:47:47]: This is not generating Ai slot, but this is where I feel like that's the definition.
Dave [0:47:52]: That...
Dave [0:47:52]: That's what taste is.
Dave [0:47:53]: You know, people overuse that word.
Dave [0:47:55]: It's that.
Dave [0:47:55]: It's like, Oh, I can actually write the newsletter and be really plugged into it, but I don't have to write, like, today, you know, it it it's really interesting from that standpoint.
Dave [0:48:04]: So that...
Dave [0:48:05]: That's been really helpful.
Casey [0:48:06]: Yeah.
Casey [0:48:06]: Oh, I'm glad it's been helpful too.
Casey [0:48:08]: It's it really...
Casey [0:48:09]: Helps spark inspiration and creativity for me too.
Casey [0:48:12]: It's it's like, it's also like a memory bank.
Casey [0:48:14]: Like you're saying, you know, Drew from this time.
Casey [0:48:16]: Like, you know, that thing that's in your mind.
Casey [0:48:18]: And you're like, I remember it.
Casey [0:48:19]: Claude remembers if you've put it in there.
Casey [0:48:20]: And you can go talk back to it about that thing again.
Casey [0:48:23]: With the new information that you have.
Dave [0:48:25]: I also think we have, like, we learned how to write before Ai, and so it's, like, now we get to...
Dave [0:48:31]: We...
Dave [0:48:31]: I already know how to write with with it without it.
Dave [0:48:33]: Now it's just gonna help me, like, get through a little section faster, and it's, like...
Dave [0:48:37]: What it replaces is like, I would have to go research that.
Dave [0:48:41]: If I wanna properly tee you up.
Dave [0:48:43]: I gotta go to Google.
Dave [0:48:44]: I gotta a research here, know, I gotta go Linkedin.
Dave [0:48:46]: I gotta pull your bio.
Dave [0:48:47]: I gotta write from, you know, read what Snowflake is like, it...
Dave [0:48:49]: That's not writing.
Dave [0:48:50]: It's accelerating all that stuff, and then I can, you know, just I've...
Dave [0:48:54]: Sometimes I'll just write, like, snowfall, like Casey Patterson and then I'll, write, like, Lol and, you know, parenthesis for no reason just to, like, show my personality.
Casey [0:49:03]: Right.
Casey [0:49:03]: Point of view is what I think of.
Casey [0:49:05]: I mean, you're calling it taste some...
Casey [0:49:07]: I I always call a point of view.
Casey [0:49:08]: Like, if Claude, if you're just, you know, shoveling in whatever Claude gives you.
Casey [0:49:13]: You have no point of view.
Casey [0:49:14]: Like, you you you need to use your mind, articulate what you think, and that is the only thing you ring to a business these days.
Casey [0:49:20]: Like, Claude can process all the data.
Casey [0:49:21]: Cloud can write you know, whatever copy, but your point of view is what matters.
Casey [0:49:26]: And also what matters in your circle at work or your circle outside of work.
Casey [0:49:31]: Like, you're unique this is the only thing you bring.
Casey [0:49:34]: So Not the only thing, but, you know,
Dave [0:49:36]: Oh, I like that.
Dave [0:49:36]: I like that's really true.
Dave [0:49:38]: I like, I'm not getting...
Dave [0:49:39]: I'm not using Claude to write because I want a point of view from Claude.
Dave [0:49:43]: I think I have the point of view.
Dave [0:49:44]: Yes.
Dave [0:49:45]: I want Claude help like...
Dave [0:49:47]: You know, I just interviewed this really impressive woman for fifty two minutes?
Dave [0:49:51]: Like, can you do some research?
Dave [0:49:53]: It's like a research assistant?
Casey [0:49:55]: Yes.
Casey [0:49:55]: You know what the other thing is?
Casey [0:49:56]: Okay.
Casey [0:49:56]: So to your point about having that having written before?
Casey [0:50:00]: You know, Ai.
Dave [0:50:02]: Sorry.
Dave [0:50:02]: Did you not hear the part where I said really impressive woman Yours be like, wow.
Dave [0:50:05]: Thank you.
Dave [0:50:05]: That's was very...
Casey [0:50:06]: Oh.
Casey [0:50:06]: I'm sorry.
Casey [0:50:06]: Thanks, Steve.
Casey [0:50:08]: That's so nice of you.
Casey [0:50:09]: I really appreciate it, and no, actually, no I I I am, I am thankful.
Casey [0:50:15]: And if anything, It just, you know, everything in...
Casey [0:50:17]: Inside me is like, sc, like, no.
Casey [0:50:19]: No.
Dave [0:50:20]: For the record, this is nothing new with you.
Dave [0:50:21]: I'm just speaking this into existence for claude later for the transport.
Casey [0:50:25]: You're right, No one's in most of this.
Casey [0:50:26]: It does have to do with me, but, know, I gotta gotta get out.
Casey [0:50:29]: Gotta topic.
Casey [0:50:30]: I can't accept this compliment...
Casey [0:50:31]: But to your point about you learned to write before before Ai.
Casey [0:50:35]: What I love is I learned to...
Casey [0:50:37]: I started...
Casey [0:50:39]: I'm not naturally data driven, I would say.
Casey [0:50:42]: Maybe I am.
Casey [0:50:43]: I don't know.
Casey [0:50:43]: But I dove into data very early in my marketing career.
Casey [0:50:46]: And one of my mentors Matt Walton who is amazing, taught me how to visualize data in a consumable way for other people.
Casey [0:50:54]: Make it easy for other people to consume the data that you've labor and and, you know, spent so much time on.
Casey [0:50:59]: What I love about, especially, like, Snowflakes and of I'm not I swear I'm not doing, like, a plug.
Casey [0:51:04]: I actually love it is that I can see a chart in my mind.
Casey [0:51:07]: Like, I can see, like, okay, it's it's three grouped bar charts, and these are the the months, you know, that I'm thinking of, And then I want over the bar charts.
Casey [0:51:16]: I want, like, a a percentage line that shows, you know, x.
Casey [0:51:20]: I I can conceive of that in my mind because I've done the work to figure out the data.
Casey [0:51:24]: And now I don't have to go find the data.
Casey [0:51:27]: Put it in a table.
Casey [0:51:28]: Make the chart, go to Google Sheets and change all the colors.
Casey [0:51:31]: I just type it into something, and it's there, and it's like, oh, I I did all the work.
Casey [0:51:35]: I just don't have to do all the clicking around.
Casey [0:51:37]: So I...
Casey [0:51:37]: It it makes me so excited.
Casey [0:51:39]: The same thing with writing.
Casey [0:51:40]: It's, like, you don't have to do the labor, like, oh, and a a writer, it's so hard.
Casey [0:51:45]: You're...
Casey [0:51:46]: I mean, it is.
Casey [0:51:46]: But you you get to just do the fun stuff.
Casey [0:51:49]: You just get to say, like, I know what I wanna say, put it into paper for me.
Casey [0:51:52]: It's so good.
Dave [0:51:54]: That's a perfect example and think about what your job would have been before as a leader of a team of twenty three.
Dave [0:52:01]: You spent a lot of time making decks?
Dave [0:52:03]: Yeah.
Dave [0:52:03]: We used to have to have a meeting about the meeting and then have the meeting.
Dave [0:52:07]: It's like, Okay.
Dave [0:52:08]: The big calls next in two weeks.
Dave [0:52:10]: So you gotta prepare for that.
Dave [0:52:12]: And it's like, I god.
Dave [0:52:13]: And half of it was getting the data.
Dave [0:52:14]: This is what...
Dave [0:52:15]: The...
Dave [0:52:16]: This is when the whole thing was, like, marketers need to know how to write sequel queries.
Dave [0:52:20]: And I'm like, I'll just wait.
Dave [0:52:22]: I'll wait until Chad Comes out, and I'm good now.
Dave [0:52:25]: Who's laugh.
Dave [0:52:26]: Who's laughing now?
Casey [0:52:28]: No.
Casey [0:52:28]: Just go plan language.
Casey [0:52:30]: Love that.
Dave [0:52:32]: Let's make a bull case for marketing continuing to be gain employed over the next five years.
Dave [0:52:38]: That?
Dave [0:52:40]: Do you have any opinions?
Dave [0:52:41]: I'm I'm an opt, and I'd love this profession, and I wanna lift us up.
Dave [0:52:45]: So any propaganda you'd you'd like to...
Casey [0:52:50]: I would love to.
Casey [0:52:51]: I think people go into marketing because they got a sociology degree, and they didn't know what to do, and they wanted to be a creative, but they also didn't wanna be a painter who couldn't, like, pay their rent type of a thing.
Casey [0:53:06]: Like, that...
Casey [0:53:07]: That's an overs simplification.
Casey [0:53:08]: That's me.
Casey [0:53:08]: But that's an overs simplification.
Dave [0:53:11]: No disrespect.
Dave [0:53:12]: No disrespect to the painters out there, if you're listening to this.
Casey [0:53:16]: I still can't.
Casey [0:53:16]: I still pay.
Casey [0:53:17]: Wanted to be a creative.
Dave [0:53:20]: Are you describing yourself, by the way.
Casey [0:53:22]: Yeah.
Casey [0:53:22]: I'm just grabbing.
Dave [0:53:23]: You're so your sociology major.
Dave [0:53:24]: Yeah.
Dave [0:53:24]: That's a perfect arc.
Dave [0:53:25]: That's a perfect avatar for this.
Casey [0:53:27]: It is.
Casey [0:53:27]: It is.
Casey [0:53:28]: Sociology.
Casey [0:53:29]: Journalism, you know, those are...
Dave [0:53:32]: That was me.
Dave [0:53:32]: A journalism.
Dave [0:53:32]: And then I graduated in two thousand nine, and everything hap...
Dave [0:53:37]: Everything bad happened, and there's was, like, dude you're not gonna be able to make...
Dave [0:53:40]: No.
Dave [0:53:40]: Do you wanna afford to live in an apartment in a cool place, so you you can't do that job.
Dave [0:53:45]: So I applied the marketing to writing.
Dave [0:53:47]: Either the writing to marketing, and they were like, well, turns out you could be a marketer and you can get paid good money to write?
Dave [0:53:51]: Okay.
Casey [0:53:53]: Here we are.
Casey [0:53:53]: So this...
Casey [0:53:54]: We are the archetype.
Casey [0:53:55]: You wanna be creative.
Casey [0:53:56]: You want to be gameplay employed.
Casey [0:53:59]: And then to get to the levels that you got to as a Vp, you're you a Vp.
Casey [0:54:05]: Hubs not Right?
Dave [0:54:07]: It was a Vp at a different company.
Dave [0:54:08]: Yes.
Casey [0:54:09]: What was it again?
Dave [0:54:10]: It was called Drift.
Casey [0:54:11]: Drift.
Casey [0:54:11]: Of course.
Casey [0:54:12]: Duh.
Dave [0:54:13]: Yeah.
Casey [0:54:13]: We had to keep you humble there by not knowing the name.
Casey [0:54:15]: No.
Dave [0:54:16]: Do you see these windows?
Dave [0:54:17]: Do you see these windows This drift paid for these windows?
Dave [0:54:20]: There's no...
Dave [0:54:20]: There's no humble on this.
Dave [0:54:21]: I don't care if you know the company or not.
Casey [0:54:23]: You're right.
Casey [0:54:23]: So you get to the level that you you're a high...
Casey [0:54:28]: You're a high achieve, you're creative.
Casey [0:54:29]: You get to the level that you wanna get to as a higher a high achieve by doing non creative things, pulling data, doing internal politics, doing all these things.
Casey [0:54:37]: And and and making business cases, you know, And and and you rise you rise through the ranks because you have these skills in your your a high achieve and and one of these things.
Casey [0:54:46]: But Ai and marketing allows you to go back to the creative who got the journalism degree.
Casey [0:54:51]: Who got the sociology degree who wanted to be a painter.
Casey [0:54:53]: It allows you to unlock things faster.
Casey [0:54:57]: In your mind that you wanna bring to life.
Casey [0:54:59]: Like that chart I mentioned.
Casey [0:55:00]: Of course, the chart is not a painting, but it is something that I can conceive of in my mind like the paintings that I make and visualize and then type into a thing and then a business proposition comes out of it, which is my job now.
Casey [0:55:12]: So there there is a shortening of time from creativity or cons...
Casey [0:55:16]: Or a concept to business value.
Casey [0:55:18]: And as long as you're on the cusp of that, and you're not falling behind thinking that you still need to go into a spreadsheet and pull the data and know analyze it yourself, which, you know, you you should know how to, but you don't have to do just that anymore to to rise to the ring are were to remain employed, you can lock the creativity that you had when you got into marketing at the beginning.
Casey [0:55:37]: Because at the end of the day, it is about communication.
Casey [0:55:38]: It is about writing visuals it's it's about creativity.
Casey [0:55:42]: It's about all those things.
Casey [0:55:43]: So that's my end...
Casey [0:55:44]: It's...
Casey [0:55:45]: That's what I keep coming back to for myself.
Dave [0:55:49]: Alright.
Dave [0:55:49]: I love it.
Casey [0:55:51]: The journalism lives on in Dave.
Dave [0:55:54]: It...
Dave [0:55:54]: Yeah.
Dave [0:55:54]: Right?
Dave [0:55:54]: Imagine, I've never have so many Linkedin followers.
Dave [0:55:57]: Alright.
Dave [0:55:57]: Kc, rock.
Dave [0:55:58]: I'd love to spend like, the them of the day with you go for walk or something then.
Dave [0:56:01]: But I can't.
Dave [0:56:02]: Because it's we're...
Dave [0:56:03]: I'm here in Vermont, you're in you're in Denver, but, check this out.
Dave [0:56:07]: So Casey's awesome.
Dave [0:56:08]: And if you like this session, she's gonna be speaking at Drive twenty twenty six in s vermont.
Dave [0:56:15]: That's where we're gonna be.
Dave [0:56:16]: You can go check it out exitfive.com/drivecasey.
Dave [0:56:20]: Awesome.
Dave [0:56:21]: Now I know.
Dave [0:56:22]: I knew there was a...
Dave [0:56:22]: I knew I I knew I got a sense for your work.
Dave [0:56:25]: Hillary.
Dave [0:56:25]: I spent a lot of time with Hillary in in March, and she's like, yeah, Case casey awesome.
Dave [0:56:29]: So Keep keep doing your thing.
Casey [0:56:32]: Has a lot of respect for you too.
Casey [0:56:33]: Also, I have to tell you before we go that ever since it was announced that it's in s, a bug went got a a musical bug got into my head.
Casey [0:56:40]: You know white Christmas that movie.
Casey [0:56:42]: I watch it every year.
Dave [0:56:44]: Yeah.
Dave [0:56:44]: I...
Casey [0:56:44]: All I can got is s s, s s, s.
Casey [0:56:48]: It won't be long before will all be there in s.
Dave [0:56:52]: Then Know what?
Dave [0:56:52]: We need to we need to, like, grab that.
Dave [0:56:55]: That needs to be, like, a, like, a remix or something.
Casey [0:56:59]: That's your thing.
Dave [0:57:00]: An Ai version of that.
Dave [0:57:01]: Alright.
Dave [0:57:03]: Well, great job.
Dave [0:57:04]: You're awesome.
Dave [0:57:04]: I love the way that you talk through things and I think people will enjoy this wide ranging conversation, so good job.
Dave [0:57:10]: I'll see you soon.
Casey [0:57:11]: I hope so.
Casey [0:57:11]: It's great to see you.
Dave [0:57:13]: Okay.
Casey [0:57:13]: Thanks so much.
Dave [0:57:18]: Hey.
Dave [0:57:18]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.
Dave [0:57:20]: If you like this episode.
Dave [0:57:21]: You know what?
Dave [0:57:21]: I'm not even gonna ask you to subscribe and leave a review because hi, I don't really care about that.
Dave [0:57:26]: I have something better for you.
Dave [0:57:27]: So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five, and you can go check that out instead of leaving a rating a review, go check it out right now on our website, exitfive.com.
Dave [0:57:39]: Our mission at Exit Five is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing, and there's no better place to do that than with us at Exit Five.
Dave [0:57:46]: There's nearly five thousand members now in our community, people are in their posting every day asking questions about things like marketing planning.
Dave [0:57:53]: Ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers, building your own network of marketers who are doing same thing you are, so you can have a peer group or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest.
Dave [0:58:07]: It's a hundred percent free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free, and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you wanna become a member for the year.
Dave [0:58:16]: Go check it out, learn more, exitfive.com, and I will see you over there in the community.