Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Topics covered in this episode:
- SBF was sentenced to 25 years. Is justice served?
- SDNY declares wallets are not brokers
- Bitcoin finished 7 straight monthly green candles
- Cathie Wood predicts $3.8M per Bitcoin
- PNC is adding only $BITB
- Morgan Stanley & UBS are set to launch BTC ETFs to clients
Creators & Guests
Host
What is Weekly Crypto Check-In?
Hosts Robert Swarthout and Andres Sandate cover the last week's worth of crypto news, providing insights and opinions on this quickly evolving space from a fund managers perspective.
Welcome to another episode of the weekly crypto check-in recorded on April 3, 2024. I'm your host, Robert Swartout, and I'm joined by my cohost, Andres Andate. How's it going, Andres?
Andres Sandate:Hey, Robert. Good. I'm up in the mountains, of Blue Ridge, Georgia for spring break this week with a few families, so I decided I would just show our audience, the live backdrop. It's sunny and beautiful here in the mountains.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. You know, it's a land is a little cooler today. It actually was warmer at 8 AM this morning, and it's gonna be at 5 PM today. So it's one of those weird days where we're headed for a little 2 or 3 days of cold. Probably our last little bit of cold for the
Andres Sandate:spring. Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Awesome. Well, we, our first topic is a bit of closure. You know, we
Andres Sandate:We think.
Robert Swarthout:Well, we think. I'm sure there's an appeal coming, because, you know, everything seems to appeal these days. But SBF was sentenced this last Thursday. You know, his his case, he was found guilty on all charges and all and everything that he could be, at least that he was charged with and went to court over. He was, you know, he sentenced to 25 years.
Robert Swarthout:It's, you know, it's on one hand, that's gonna feel like a very long time to him because he's a he's still in his thirties. But, you know, you know, some people, and I would probably be included in that, probably think that wasn't enough. You know, the real question is, is justice served? Even if he serves the full 25 years, which is probably highly unlikely, because there'd be good behavior in there. And I think federal guidelines say that he has to serve at least 80% of that, so 20 years.
Robert Swarthout:So even more salt in the wind for the victims, in my opinion.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. No. I I yeah. I I'm with you that I I would have liked to have seen him get the upper end of the, I guess, the range. I I was hearing, you know, potentially as many as 40 or 50 years.
Andres Sandate:And for the charges that he was, you know, for for the things he was charged with, it could could have certainly been much, much worse for him. Yeah. And so, you know, I, you know, I I wouldn't put these 2 individuals in the same in the same camp, but, you know, for for those, who saw what happened to Michael Milken back in the eighties, you know, he was he was kind of the person who was synonymous with the, you know, the the leveraged loan market, the junk bond market, and, has a lifetime ban from the Securities and Exchange Commission. And he, over the course of the last 30 years, have has done a lot of really, really good things, philanthropically for science research, and I think a lot of people may not even know about his background. And, you know, I always try to find the positive in things, and there's been so many people hurt by what happened with SBF.
Andres Sandate:And, again, we let off the show by saying we don't know if this is the end of of SBF. Just hope that, you know, those that were victims are able to get some recovery, if not full recovery, of the dollars they invested. They certainly aren't getting to participate in the upside, of of of crypto and Bitcoin here the last 6, 12 months. But, yeah, I I bring up Milken because this doesn't have to be the very end for for this this this this guy, and, we'll see what he decides to do. Kind of built his whole name on, this this effective altruism, and I guess we'll find out how effective and altruistic he really is Mhmm.
Andres Sandate:At this point.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. You know, it's, he he may have trouble being given going forward because he was also ordered to forfeit $11,000,000,000. Yeah.
Andres Sandate:You
Robert Swarthout:know? Like, if he has more than $11,000,000,000 or more than $1,000,000,000 at this point, obviously, the, the state of FTX should be coming after that. But,
Andres Sandate:yeah, for sure,
Robert Swarthout:you know, for I don't know. But my opinion is he should have gotten much higher number of years. He was potentially up for life, a 110 years, so obviously more than life. And the judge was very strict, scolded him in in court, during this final ruling, even mentioned that he knew he lied on the stand, and then gave him what many people might call a cupcake sentence. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. I I struggled I struggled with one one last point. I I struggled with his lack of contrition until, you know, almost the very end. I mean, I think he he did acknowledge, if I'm reading correctly, the news reports the day of sentencing. But but like you said, all the way up until the very end, really played, this card of defensive, you know, I I really didn't know.
Andres Sandate:I was just sort of
Robert Swarthout:Too smart to know.
Andres Sandate:Smart to know, and it it I just don't buy that. You know? Right. So he needs to go and be away for a long, long time.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. I his mom wrote a letter to the court trying basically, was did not seem remorseful at all for him and was basically saying, you know, look at all the good he was doing for the world. And he wasn't doing any good. He was stealing. And any good that he appeared to be doing was other people's money he was giving away.
Robert Swarthout:So it's just it seems to, that thread seems to run through the whole family that maybe a little disconnected from what actually is reality there. So
Andres Sandate:Exactly. Yeah. Well, let's move on. I know we've got a lot of other, more more, impactful topics, if you will, about what's going on in crypto. So let's jump into point 2.
Robert Swarthout:Yes. So this last week, I think it was on Friday, this, the Southern District New York, there was a judge there that is handling the SEC and Coinbase case. The Coinbase had filed to for a motion to dismiss, early on in this. Sanjay is saying this is all crazy. Make this go away effectively.
Robert Swarthout:The judge came back and, ruled that most of it can go forward, but they did rule that excuse me. The judge did rule that the Coinbase Wallet, which is different than coinbase.com. So Coinbase Wallet is something you might find in the App Store, in in Google Play, or in in the iOS app. It's a self custody wallet for largely Ethereum. You can do Bitcoin as another, but largely the those 2 majors is not a broker.
Robert Swarthout:The SEC was alleging that the software wallet was a broker, which would be a big deal if they won that. Obviously, the that brings so much more underneath what the SEC would be their jurisdiction. So that was a bit of a sigh relief. The, you know, the barrier for the to keep this case going was rather low for the SEC. The SEC made a lot of allegations and their response by this shouldn't be dismissed.
Robert Swarthout:And they didn't really have to prove the facts. There's many attorneys on crypto Twitter saying, well, now they actually have to prove these things that they say they're doing and good luck with that. So it it you know, we are dealing with the SEC, and, they they are, you know, hard to deal with. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Well, you know, a a plug for next week, on Tuesday
Robert Swarthout:Yes.
Andres Sandate:9th April, you and I are gonna host a livestream with a former SEC enforcement attorney, who is a partner at a leading, law firm that does a lot of fun formation work, a lot of work in the crypto space, and we're hoping, I know, to be able to ask some of those questions, of our guest, Ron Gefner. He served at the SEC as an attorney, you know, some years ago prior to this most recent enforcement strategy, against digital assets and crypto. But, nevertheless, I think being able to talk to folks, that are on the front lines, advising clients around the SEC's posture, clearly, they're swinging a hammer, a big hammer in trying to whether it's bring down the industry or be relevant in the face of growing interest in this asset class, remains to be seen, but I know you made the point on our last check-in that, you know, short of a new administration, we may be in for more of, the same tactics, depending on which way the election goes in November.
Robert Swarthout:Absolutely. So Yep. So, you know, if if you're a single issue voter over crypto, make sure you vote correctly.
Andres Sandate:Alright. Well, let's talk about, Bitcoin. Seven straight monthly green candles.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. This this hasn't happened since, 2012 for Bitcoin. This is, you know, there's a lot of positive news around Bitcoin these days, especially around the Bitcoin ETFs. But this is this is a big deal, like, from a, a charting, technical analysis perspective. You know, of the 7 months, 2 of them were largely flat, admittedly.
Robert Swarthout:Barely eked out much of a gain, but, you know, positive nonetheless. And if you look at the chart leading up to that, you know, 2023, you know, Bitcoin slowly just rose throughout the year, but starting in September, you had a smaller month than October November where in December where decent size jump ups. You know, January was kind of cool off while we were waiting for the ETF to launch largely. And then February, oh my gosh, what a big candle. So it's kind of up into the right right now, with, you know, the last month prices largely being stable, but or stable for crypto, I should say.
Robert Swarthout:But it's a, you know, it's cool to kinda see, and just, you know, we're coming up in the having later this month. So we're early in the cycle. The pullback that we've had over the last 3 or 4 days, probably 5 days at this point, has been, kind of expected. We have a pullback right before the the having, and then it seems to, you know, in at least past cycles, want to take off from there and go upwards. So
Andres Sandate:Let me ask you a question before before we move to to, Cathy Wood's, Bitcoin call that came out last week. As somebody who's following technical and and charting and also is doing a lot of fundamental work on the underlying alternative tokens that are out there, When when you look at the when you look at the technical information like a chart, and looking back at patterns, what are some of the things that, like, everyday investors can draw from your experience? If if you were not giving them advice, but, what should they be looking at beyond just the price action, with respect to starting to just better understand the space? Like, what have been your observations?
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. I would say this is kind of not an answer to your question, but I think it's important to mention. You know, a lot of times people will look at crypto and like, they're like, oh, Bitcoin is at, you know, 50 or 60 5,000 and change today. You know? Oh my gosh.
Robert Swarthout:Ethereum is it whatever. Oh, I found this other token that is less than a penny. If it only went up to a tenth of a penny, you know, you have to people very easily lose sight of what is the float, how many tokens are outstanding of each individual one. Bitcoin is rather small at 21,000,000 ever than you have, you know, XRP is an example about a 100,000,000,000. Well, there there's a very big big magnitude difference.
Robert Swarthout:If you were to kind of, I guess, right size these things, it would be, a little bit easier to compare, but I don't think that's the right thing to do.
Andres Sandate:Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Back to your question, I would say the average person's not gonna get into technical analysis. You're gonna be a bit of a nerd if you're doing that, which is fine. You're just gonna be in it a lot more than I think the average person might be.
Andres Sandate:Yep.
Robert Swarthout:You know, I study not tons of technical stuff, but I use the technical stuff to inform what we may be may be at in a cycle, whether that's a bear or a bull market cycle. Crypto follows I wouldn't say the same playbook every time, but pretty close to it. There's patterns in it. And I think part of it's reinforced because those patterns are coded into trading bots that go out there to trade what the past cycles have done. So it's a self fulfilling prophecy at some level.
Robert Swarthout:And, you know, there there's slight variations. And this time with the ETF and the inflows from that, I think that is potentially, adding some stress to those models in ways that, you know, may not be have been predicted.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. And and when you say trading bots, you're referring to, like, algorithmic trading bots, computer driven that are out executing, trades based on computer programs and other, whether it's human influenced on the front end, but these are these are trades that are happening that are moving the price Absolutely. Around in these different tokens.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. Because it's not as simple as, like, oh my gosh. The price of Apple is this. Right? I mean, that's pretty much a known thing.
Robert Swarthout:Bitcoin or whatever token you care about in crypto could be on 200 different exchanges around the world. Right. So Trading 247. It could be arbitrage just between that one token depending on where you're buying and selling it at. So you have that mixture and the, you know, your whatever you you can trade sometimes from 1 crypto into Bitcoin or 1 crypto into Ethereum versus going back to a dollar or a euro or whatever maybe.
Robert Swarthout:So there's always crazy amounts of trading pairs. In some systems you'll even see where they'll trade from 1 pair into another pair as part of a trade. To kind of they they they find the I guess, I wanna consider double arbitrage there, but you kinda find that that hop, that happens. So
Andres Sandate:it's not something that I
Robert Swarthout:actively do. I've done a little bit of reading on it, more so from my computer science side of my brain, curious about it than anything else. So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Yeah. They're safe to say given given the 247 nature and all the exchanges in the global aspect and and how so many participants in the market, retail to institutional, can participate. We are many, many, many cycles away from, I I would say, regulation at least, in a in a similar market structure that you have to, like, the S and P 500 stocks.
Robert Swarthout:Oh, absolutely.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. So, let's talk about Cathie Wood, and this this this, uber bullish call that she came out with. First of all, who's Cathie Wood? Maybe a little bit of context before we talk about the $3,800,000 Bitcoin call she made.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. She, she's aggressive. So Cathy is famous from her, I guess, more traditional equity, style investing that she does. She has some funds, arc investments. There's different arc ETFs that you can buy into.
Robert Swarthout:And she kinda, you know, became famous, I guess you might call it that, over the last 10 years, but certainly during COVID with her some of her technology, plays that she did that made made her a talking head on CNBC, it seems. So, you know, she's obviously a smart lady. In in some sense, from a crypto perspective, she's rather forward thinking even outside of her crazy Bitcoin price. I say crazy because I would love to know what context in years that she's talking about this thing in. Like, is this a 10 year price or is this a 3 year price?
Robert Swarthout:You know, she she had the highest price I had ever seen predicted for it by anyone of, I guess, recognition at at a1000000. And then for whatever reason, last week, she decided that she needed to, I guess, one up herself. I don't I don't quite understand it to go to 3,800,000, which is a huge multiple from the 65,000 that we're at today.
Andres Sandate:So Yeah. So clearly, you know, without knowing a lot of the details, I I'd say our take well, I should say my take is this is a multiyear call. It's it's not yeah. It's it's it's maybe it's a decade long call. You know, we, we both talk to a lot of people in the market, each week, between these sessions, these updates.
Andres Sandate:And one thing that I asked an institutional crypto manager last week was, you know, talk about utility and value of Bitcoin. And, you know, the the sales professional that I was talking to is I don't think was probably as articulate as maybe the chief invest investment officer who's probably fielding that question daily from institutional clients. But when you go back and you sort of do the research, what you what you see is a lot of folks, that are pro Bitcoin and the b Bitcoin ETFs will talk about, you know, folks like Jamie Dimon and people maybe from more of the traditional valuation camp don't understand about Bitcoin is it's like, they'll draw the comparison to fine art or rare cars or collectibles that there clearly is a value of a Mona Lisa painting or a Monet or, you know, something. What is that value? Well, it's it's what somebody would pay for it.
Andres Sandate:Right? And so I think that in in one sense, when you talk about valuation and is the 3.8 conservative, aggressive, like, it's very difficult to pin down these folks
Robert Swarthout:Right.
Andres Sandate:And and really get anything behind these models and these these calls, unlike a traditional stock. And so you you sort of have to suspend belief a little bit if you're gonna try to compare it to, you know, what's going on in the in the in traditional asset classes. What's your take, like, when you when you see these calls?
Robert Swarthout:They they seem very sensationalized. You know, like, I wish that the person interviewing would ask more questions, more more thoughtful questions, like, you know, what kind of time frame? And, you know, they're obviously gonna try to squirm around that answer because they don't wanna be held to something. I I get that. But at the same time, they're also saying a number that needs to be grounded in something, in my opinion.
Andres Sandate:They also sponsor an ETF that owns That's that's
Robert Swarthout:a little something. Yeah. Yes. Right.
Andres Sandate:Right. So, I mean, a little bit a little bit talking their own book in a way, which, you know, that's Wall Street. Right? These these are all folks making money. Let's let's be honest here and direct.
Andres Sandate:But, yeah, I mean, a $3,800,000 call, I guess, this kinda goes back to the reason we did the show, though. I mean, is that we want we wanted to talk about the headlines and dig into them and see if there's substance and see if Yeah. You know, there's something there. We we have not found that yet. We haven't found that report, but if we do find it, we'll put it out there.
Robert Swarthout:Absolutely. You know, when she had her $1,000,000 call, that was like, oh, that's a round number. She's just kinda, like, picking a big number. Now it's, like, 3.8. Like, oddly, like, that seems like there's some thought behind it.
Robert Swarthout:Well, let's let's see the thought, Kathy. Yeah.
Andres Sandate:So we'll we'll we'll dig around, for additional support behind that. Perhaps there is a a research piece or something that's come out, but, but, nevertheless, a a talking head, a big figure in the space that does capture a lot of people's attention on CNBC and newspapers and headlines. You know, she's not moving the market, but when somebody like her or somebody, you know, one of these other 10 or 20 notable figures, from traditional finance speaks, there's a lot of people that do pick their head up, and certainly the headline. So this, this last 2, Robert, that we that we've got here, I think, speak to the, you know, increased adoption, call it trend that we've talked about the last couple of weeks on these weekly check ins. So you pulled a couple of headlines.
Andres Sandate:Let's start with the PNC headline around them adding, BITB.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. I mean, you're right. It really these last 2 can be combined into one bullet point, But with PNC being slightly different in that they're only gonna be offering the Bitwise at least from everything that I've read, they're only gonna be offering the Bitwise, BITB, Bitcoin ETF to their, to their clients via their wealth management platform.
Andres Sandate:And why why does PNC matter? Like, what what I don't you know, some people know this institution, some people know this bank, but Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:I mean, they're they're a top ten US bank. I mean, like, they're I don't know exactly what their wealth management, number is on assets under management, but it's probably a $1,000,000,000,000, or at least really 10 largest one
Andres Sandate:of the 10 largest banks in the country. Yeah. Regulated. Right?
Robert Swarthout:Right. And a lot of reach. I mean, they're a lot and not just regional. Right? I mean, they're they're a big big bank.
Robert Swarthout:So Yeah.
Andres Sandate:Present in the southeast where we're based out of in Atlanta, you know, obviously, the East Coast. So a top ten institution basically saying, okay. We're gonna approve this product, is is newsworthy because we've been talking about right now a lot of the adoption of, you know, crypto. A lot of it is you know, there's probably institutions trading it. We we think, you know, it's hard to know who owns these ETFs.
Andres Sandate:Just it it's different the way these instruments are set up, but, nevertheless, it's clearly retail dollars. There's probably institutional dollars where where I think there's potentially a lot of flows, and I'd like to hear your take
Robert Swarthout:Mhmm.
Andres Sandate:Is within the wealth management private wealth channel. Yeah. And when those dollars start to move, we're talking 1,000,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of retirement assets, that could potentially come into this this space.
Robert Swarthout:Yeah. You know, you mentioned something there about institutional investments. I I believe that that you were about to start potentially seeing some of that disclosed. Right? 13 f's are about to come out if there's any, I guess, publicly traded institutions, or I think that's how that works immediately.
Robert Swarthout:I don't know for certain.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. They they have a certain amount of holdings they've gotta they've gotta disclose. Yeah. On a quarterly basis. Correct?
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:So maybe we'll start seeing
Andres Sandate:that in the
Robert Swarthout:next couple weeks on some of those. But, you know, to me, right now, all the interest or the majority of the interest outside of, say, hedge funds investing in these ETFs would have been me calling my broker saying or my financial adviser saying, please buy this. Like, it's there's no outbound sales happening. And I think when you see PNC turning it on and our last well, excuse me, bullet point there with Morgan Stanley and UBS, you know, their sales team or their brokers are allowed to basically make a phone call and say, hey. I think you should do this.
Robert Swarthout:I think we should do a 1% allocation or whatever it may be. That's that's a lot of dollars. I mean, just, you know, Morgan Stanley alone, I think, is a trillion and a half dollars in client acts assets and UBS is at 3 and a half. I mean, that's 5,000,000,000,000 plus whatever PNC is. Call it another trillion.
Robert Swarthout:It's a lot. Even if it's 1%, and it takes 2 or 3 years, that that is a huge amount of inflows.
Andres Sandate:So Yeah. I mean, you know, I think we talked about this in, in the prior call, and all these are recorded The for those that are not able to listen live, on our livestreams every, you know, every Wednesday at 1:30 EST. The good thing is these are recorded, but we did talk about, you know, BlackRock and Fidelity, the 2 clear leaders out of the gate in terms of, flows into their ETF products. But, nevertheless, Bitwise, has been on, they've been on the trail, if you will. They've been out in the market for for a number of years, trying to establish their name.
Andres Sandate:They do have a following. They do they do have inflows into their product, and they don't just have ETFs. They they have a series of different offerings, private funds, and and other style vehicles. So there is more and more competition that's gonna come to the space. And, you know, one thing about Morgan Stanley and UBS is, you know, they are just 2 of a number of the big wirehouses that likely, you know, are are gonna move in similar fashion around this because, you know, brokers and advisers at these platforms know you know, they know their buddies at the other shops in town, and they know Mhmm.
Andres Sandate:That, you know, that they they kinda have a sense for what everybody else is doing. And so it's it's hard to imagine a scenario where 3 of the 4 offer it and one doesn't. Right? Or 2 offer and 2 don't. So so I think we'll see over the course of the next quarter or 2 as these firms conduct more diligence.
Andres Sandate:Right? They're they're they have to make sure they're meeting fiduciary obligations. They're gonna have to make sure they're meeting suitability obligations. But to your point, like, when you switch from taking the call to being able to go make the call and say, hey. We're gonna adjust the model, and the asset allocation is now gonna include a 1, 2, 3%, whatever it is.
Andres Sandate:We don't know. Yeah. We're speculating, but but, you know, it could be 1%. It could be 2%. Like, that that's meaningful dollars when you have a $10,000,000 family or, you know, even $2,000,000 family.
Andres Sandate:Right? Yeah. So so a lot to come here on on this. I'm I'm gonna ask you for an analysis point though on these last 2 as you as you as you think about you know, even even though I know you're not, long Bitcoin, not that you're short. You just don't own it.
Andres Sandate:Right. It's something you still follow. Right? So what what what is your take as you, you know, look at these products? The inflows, you know, do you still think that the the shine is on, if you will, and, people are still, you know, going to wanna adopt bit Bitcoin exposure generally, or do you think that, you know, the hype is gonna start to wear off over the next few quarters?
Andres Sandate:Like, what's what's your sort of
Robert Swarthout:view? I think that it's you maybe use a different, analogy here of it's currently, it's an aluminum piece. It's a piece of aluminum, so it's kinda shiny. I think as the price appreciates, we go through a full bull market cycle. It's gonna become a piece of chrome.
Robert Swarthout:Everybody's gonna see how shiny it is. And then, you know, eventually when this when crypto rolls over and goes into a bear market, it becomes a little dull. I think that's gonna be you're gonna really be tested with the holders at that point. Typically, the investors I think in in traditional markets are more, long term focus than crypto investors are generally. But, like, how does that mix when you bring bringing those 2 worlds together?
Robert Swarthout:They they have been separate worlds in the past, and, you know, it'll it'll be fascinating to watch play out. I I you know, it it could I can't imagine it exasperates a a crypto, bear market going down 80, 90%. I can't imagine we go more than that. That would seem crazy to me. But does it does it kinda soften the blow a little bit because you have a little bit more people holding than you might otherwise possibly.
Andres Sandate:Mhmm.
Robert Swarthout:So
Andres Sandate:And the and the and the alternative, I guess, to a scenario where we have not just Bitcoin ETFs, but an alternative where in the next year or 2, we have multiple ETFs with multiple underlying tokens, or we have, ETFs that have, you know, 4 or 5 different underlying tokens. I mean, there's gonna be probably more product proliferation.
Robert Swarthout:Right. But there are also
Andres Sandate:a lot of investors that just have not been through a full cycle. Clearly 100%. With ETF exposure now Yeah.
Robert Swarthout:Just being recent. You know, and it's kind of a little bit off script here, but oddly ties in. So my wife and I have a donor advised fund that we do some giving out of, and I ran across a, a new, donor advised fund company that allows you to have a your portfolio or your account that's within that DAF with them, invested in crypto. It could be a mixture of equities with crypto, or you can even go super risky where it's only Bitcoin or only Ethereum. They have 15 different portfolios, and I think 4 or 5 of them have some crypto in it in some fashion.
Robert Swarthout:So this is kinda fascinating to kinda see where it's popping up. You know? And if you don't necessarily need those funds to give for the next couple years, it's an interesting, possibility of maybe a little, like, grow something that has a little more giving power down the road.
Andres Sandate:We have a couple minutes, left, and I wanted to to maybe get your take on the crypto news cycle. If we step back from these particular headlines and, you know, it seems like crypto news, can come, and it it is either, like, Bitcoin and talking about inflows and talking about one of the big talking heads making a call on Bitcoin, or it's, like, very technical. And it can get into different projects and Right. Who's building what, who's raised what kind of money. The question is, around the the inflows of dollars into the space, do you sense that it's still very much a FOMO driven, like, headline driven cycle?
Andres Sandate:Or do you think that people are starting to do a little bit more digging and trying to understand commercial utility, trying to understand Yeah. Like, how these tokens are used, how's Bitcoin practically gonna be used, etcetera? I
Robert Swarthout:yes. Kind of in both sense, but I think that the FOMO is so much greater in size than any sort of real utility right now. There's certainly projects trying to be have utility, but they don't have enough volume to really outweigh the, the clickbait nature of current crypto being so, FOMO driven.
Andres Sandate:Yeah. So But I would think as more investors come into the space, wouldn't wouldn't it be logical to think that they're gonna ask more questions, they're gonna want more evidence, research, support, etcetera. It's just gonna, you know, continue to be a topic that people are gonna want answers about.
Robert Swarthout:You mean, obviously, I'm biased, when I say this, but, yes, I I I believe that's gonna happen. I hope that's gonna happen. I you know, all the things there. I also would say that at the end of the day, the this is a this is a long game. Right?
Robert Swarthout:I mean, where these cycles come and go in crypto, roughly 3 ish, 4 years, something like that. And you right right now, we're playing the same game we've played the the other three times the cycles happened. You just have to understand what game you're playing if you want to, ride away or you can ride it all the way through and go up and down and then just be ready to stomach, you know, being potentially having some crazy gains in your portfolio. And then, you know, 3 months later, you could be down pretty dramatically. Or over the quarter of the year from a top, it's it could be 80, 90% a lot of times down.
Robert Swarthout:So
Andres Sandate:Yeah. Well, as always, there's there's a lot to break down each week. Like I said, we'll be live next Tuesday, Robert and I, on, on my livestream ATL Alts. Robert's gonna be a guest along with, Ron Geffner, who's a partner at Sadis, and we're gonna talk about crypto. So it's gonna be a great opportunity for those of you that wanna learn more about what's happening on the enforcement front, what's happening in terms of jurisdictional choices you have if you're setting up a fund, and, and other important crypto related news, and and matters that impact a lot of the asset managers and and to largely send the investors that they're gonna seek, you know, to raise capital from.
Andres Sandate:So hope you can join us next Tuesday at, 2 o'clock EST.
Robert Swarthout:I'm looking forward to it, and thanks everybody for joining us.
Andres Sandate:Thanks, Robert. Good to see you again. See
Robert Swarthout:you.