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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Brand Nerds. Guess what? It's that time again. Brands, Beats, and Bytes podcast right back at you.
And as always, and we have been blessed. We have another stunning guest. Someone who's going to drop some marketing and business jew-els for you all. So this time we have a person that understands what I describe and Larry described as both sides of the track. Sometimes we talk with folks who grew up on the corporate side, client side, and they have wonderful careers on the client side. Sometimes we talk with folks that are on the agency side and they have wonderful careers on the agency side. Rarely do we talk with someone who understands both sides of those tracks. And today, LT, we have such a person. Please speak to our Brand Nerds about who we have in the virtual building on this auspicious occasion.
LT: Ooh, love to D. We have Jill Dow in the house today. Welcome, Jill.
Jill Dow: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Very excited.
LT: Uh, yeah, we're really looking forward to this one. So, uh, we have to give our Brand Nerds, your props, your flowers to let them know who we have in the virtual building today, as DC said so, uh, Brand Nerds in our ever-evolving quest to bring you great guests, representing the full spectrum of marketing.
We love Jill's background, as DC alluded to in many ways, and when, when we walk you through the full background, you'll see why. So after graduating from Bryant University with a degree in business communications and marketing, Jill, who grew up in marketing, beginning in consumer promotions on the agency side, first Falcon Group, then Marketing Drive Worldwide, and she worked on a plethora of blue chip C P G clients, including Pepridge Farm, Nestle, Mars, and Tropicana, where she develops and helps execute many successful national and customer-driven marketing programs. And D, you know, we know that the consumer promotions is really sort of the groundwork, the epicenter.
DC: Yes.
LT: For a lot of stuff that really gets done to drive sales and sort of the confluence of marketing and sales. So I love that background. I do too. Yeah. So Jill a also at some point would love to talk Tropicana, since I spent time there in brand management, including the most emotionally connected brand that I have been privileged to work on, which was Tropicana Pure Premium.
But I'm gonna keep going. Okay. So Jill, right? The It is great brand, right, Jill?
Jill Dow: Loved it. Loved it.
LT: Yeah. So Jill then makes a really interesting move to the client side, which DC alluded to first as Senior Manager of Trade Promotions. And you see the connection for what she was doing on the agency side for Playtex products. And then moving over to Elizabeth Arden, Red Door Spas as Director of Marketing Communications. And by the way, you'll notice Brand Nerds, marketing communications encompasses a lot of things, a lot more than just, uh, promotions, uh, PR and a lot more. So D, we see how Jill has really effectively managed her career, continuing to always gain new and different experiences while at the same time Brand Nerds moving up the ladder.
This is where Amplitude Marketing Group comes calling and Jill spends the next 13 years with the first seven years as an S V P, and then earning a great promotion to President of the agency at Amplitude. Jill works with prominent clients such as Pfizer, MetLife, and Foxwood Resorts and their largest client, our old rivals, we called affectionately on North Avenue in Atlanta as the P word PepsiCo, including branding and identity work, experiential marketing, and Q S R programming across the C S D and that's carbonated soft drinks, Brand Nerds, teas and water categories. In all seriousness, given our time at Coca-Cola, we love to have folks with Pepsi backgrounds on the podcast, so you Brand Nerds get the full range of different marketing perspectives. So in 2018, Jill joins marketing agency York and Chapel as an Executive Vice President, responsible for brand strategy development, business operations management and agency growth.
And in 2019, she's promoted to CEO, big promotion. York and Chapel was born as a digital marketing house in 1999 and as tech has continued to become more integral to marketing success with this digital D N A, they have evolved into a full service marketing and design agency with marketing innovation, branding experiences, and visually stunning creative now fundamentally a part of York and Chapel, which what they deliver to clients. So key clients for York and Chapel, include large tech clients such as IBM, Intuit, Oracle, and SAP, and non-tech clients such as NBC, BIC and Schick to name a few. Brand Nerds, lots to learn from Jill in her climb from entry level position in consumer promotions to now running a large full service marketing agency.
Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes, Jill Dow.
Jill Dow: Thank you so much. I wanna bring you to all of my dinner parties and just parties and picnics in general, and I'd like you to just say that before I come in. That would be amazing. Thank you.
LT: Well, you have it, you have it on wax now, so you know, it's up to you how you want to use it.
Jill Dow: Thank you. Thank you so much.
DC: A Jill, Larry does a fabulous job with this. When we began our podcast, uh, I used to do some of the openings, then Larry would do some of the openings. As we listened to the two, it was abundantly clear. Larry's better, Larry's better. So he has handled that this for all of our, uh, guests sense.
And also he is merely stating the facts. This is what you've done. And, uh, it's interesting for me to see our guests listen to what's being said about them and their careers in real time. Always gratifying, uh, for me. But now, uh, uh, Larry, when you said the P word Pepsi and folks from the from Pepsi world, we have the utmost respect for you guys.
We do, but as Coke, uh, as Coke folks, me, Larry, and. We learn to hate, have a healthy hate, a competitive health hate for Pepsi. I'm gonna share this quick story and then we're gonna bring it back to you, Jill.
Jill Dow: Sure.
DC: So we're on set. We're on set for one of our, um, uh, pieces of ad, uh, Jill on the Sprite brand.
And we had a group, uh, hip hop group called A Tribe Called Quest. Mm-hmm. Tribe called Quest. All right. Now one of the members has passed. His name is Fife Dog, so rest in peace to our Fife dog. But one of the other members that was also in EmCee his name was Q-tip. Q-Tip had on a, a sweatshirt on the set and the sweatshirt had a P on it.
And the P was for Phat Farm. That was the brand. Yep. Phat Farm. Now Phat Farm was a Russell Simmons launch brand, and A Tribe Called Quest at the time were managed by a company within Russell's Empire called Rush Management. Mm-hmm. and another, uh, gentleman, his name is, um, um, uh, Chris Lighty, he's also passed rest and power to, to Chris. Chris was the manager. So here we are on set and uh, Q-Tip has on this "p" and so we had folks at the time working with us that were there to make certain on set everything that was on the captured in the can, Jill and Larry was correct. So I, I, I don't, I don't wanna mention the lady's name, but she comes over and she says, Hey, uh, he, he can't wear that, that P thing.
And I'm like, what do you mean he can't wear that P thing. Well then that's Pepsi. I said, no, no, no, that's not Pepsi. That's Phat Farm. She was like, no, it's never going to get by. So we had 'em shoot a couple scenes with it on couple scenes with it off, but it just speaks to like how sensitive we were to the P word. Um, the P word, like Ohio State talks about folks that when they talk about Michigan, they say that team up north, they don't call 'em Michigan.
Jill Dow: Exactly, exactly. So what you're, you're saying is, yeah. What, what you're saying is, is that you planted the Coca-Cola can in Britney Spear's hand when she was doing the commercial for Pepsi. Is that what happened? Do you remember that?
DC: No. I wish we could take credit for that, but No, no.
Jill Dow: I think she, I think she just like coca-Cola. I think that's what Oh my goodness. A slight slip up. Yeah. All right.
DC: So Jill, we call this next section, uh, Get Comfy. Okay. You've been on the client side, you've been on the agency side. On the agency side, you have dealt with a wide range of different clients, to which Larry has alluded up top. Let's take you back to when you were beginning your career. You're coming outta university. Yep. You're about to take your first job. You don't know the things you know now about the difference in a client and how they view work and a, uh, an agency and how they view work.
Speak to yourself or those that are coming outta university now, what do they need to know about the difference in the way that clients approach marketing and the way that agencies approach marketing? What's similar and what's different?
Jill Dow: Sure. You're asking me to go back 30 years? This is my 30th college reunion this year, which I cannot believe, but it's crazy.
DC: Oh, wow.
Jill Dow: But, but I remember, uh, my first day, like it was yesterday, um, going to the, it was a little agency called Gask Associates. Um, what I would say first and foremost is that for me, um, I just wanted to follow my passion and at the time it was really advertising focused based on classes that I took.
You're gonna see a lot of threads here, I think, as we go through some of these, uh, discussions because it really forced me to kind of like think back to the few decades that I've spent working. Right. Um, so for me, I wanted to make sure that I was experiencing something different every day. And on the agency side, um, the client roster that they had at the time, they were a small private agency, they ended up getting bought by Alcon Marketing, Larry.
Um, and I remember it was like Lipton and all like the, the local places. Right. Um, Prime Star Satellite, which was, you know, became like one of the big satellite companies later. So I liked the idea of having something different and new to do every day, um, and being able to deal with different clients and different brands, and as a younger person to immerse myself into different categories.
Um, on the, on the client side, I, I loved it also, um, it helped me focus very specifically on the DNA of a brand, on the, um, financial health of a brand. Um, so it's really just based on where your passions lie. I wanted to make sure when I was on the agency side for a few years, that I did have the client experience because, unbeknownst to me, I was gonna go back to the agency side. It just happened that way. And I was able to sit in the chair of a lot of my clients and give them a perspective that they could understand. So for me, it just started with what, um, you know, what I wanted out of my first working experience. And a little bit of it was I wanted to move outta my parents' house, by the way. And does that help? Is, is that, is that good enough?
DC: It's, it's more than good enough. It does. Uh, Larry did you have a response to that? Cause I have one more question around get comfy?
LT: No, keep going.
DC: All right, Jill. Uh, you know this better than most. There are not many women who reached the C-suite or President Suite? Hmm. I am the father of three daughters. Hmm. I'm the father of three daughters. Uh, one's already graduated. She's Hailey. She's, uh, one of the, uh, producers of the show. Oh, nice. Um, she was just on the zoom that, that's, that's my eldest and I have two other daughters who are still in university now. Yep. What is it that you've learned being in some of the most senior positions and being successful, that you can share with the, uh, the, the, the women Brand Nerds about what it takes to rise to your level and importantly stay at that level?
Jill Dow: Sure. That is a very daunting and awesome question, DC, thank you. No pressure here. Um, I, I will tell you this, um, I was married for like 10 years of my life while I was working, but I was un unable to have children. You told I'm being vulnerable here. Um, so I really had no choice at, at, at the time in this, you know, at the time of my career than to pour myself into work. Um, I ended up getting divorced. Um, I was, you know, we had fertility issues and I just said, hey, if I cannot be a mom to biological children, I wanna be able to be the best person at my craft. Right. And still be a, and still be a good person and contribute to the community. Sure. So I just committed a lot of my life and as I look back, you know, I, I don't have any regrets about that, but I, I just wanted to make sure that I was learning as much as I could, um, from men and women in senior positions above me.
I'm a tried and true red-blooded GenX-er worked hard. Um, just made sure that I was in the office for as long as I could be with my bosses and people that could mentor me. Um, so it was really just having the commitment, um, to be able to. Know that I was gonna go through, through some hard times and know that, um, I would find my path some way, uh, to happiness outside of the office as well.
So I think it's just, it's really elementary. It's, it's study, study. When you're at work, do your research, keep on top of trends, um, which still holds true for me today at York and Chapel, being not in a digital world for the first 20 years of my career. Right. Um, and just really immersing yourself into whatever role that you're doing.
It's, it, it sounds maybe not as complex, but it really isn't. For me, I, it was just the choice and the path that was given to me.
LT: Mm-hmm. Love that. Thank you. Jill.
DC: Thank, thank you for my daughters. Thank you for the brand nerds. And thank you for the folks that are listening to this, both the women as well as the men, uh, listening.
Yeah. I'm ahead.
LT: I'm glad you added that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to step over. I'm glad you added that because I was just gonna say that. , you know, that piece of advice works for everyone, you know? Mm-hmm. really, it's talking about Jill was really referring to as just working hard. Right. Hard work and, and applying it forward. Right.
Jill Dow: Right. And at a time where, you know, still, uh, as a woman growing in, up in that business, we, everyone deals with challenges, right? But we, I was dealing with challenges with, you know, just men in the office, or just even women trying to get into specific positions. But you just have to stay true to yourself and keep your integrity intact. And it's something my dad still instills in me. I, I aspire to be my father still.
LT: Ooh, we're gonna get into that more. D I wanna know about that. We're, yeah.
DC: All right, Jill. Well, this is the part of the program where we, uh, we are proud to read, uh, our partner and sponsor of our podcast, and they are called Specificity. And Larry does the honors.
LT: Thank you, D. So, uh, Brand Nerds, this is Specificity ad. So back here to talk to you about Specificity and Brand Nerds. We know many of you are immersed in digital marketing or may soon just be involved in it. Either way, if you want to optimize your digital marketing to maximize results, we really have the solution for you.
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Now with Specificity, both the consumer and the advertiser are happy since consumers see digital ads that are relevant for them and advertisers serve ads to people that are really receptive to the message. So let's give a real life example. If our friends at Beyond Meat wanted to use Specificity, they can serve ads to consumers who are vegans, vegetarians, or those who may be interested in a meat alternative.
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DC: Thank you, Larry. Thank you. Alright, Jill, we are now moving into what we call five questions.
Jill Dow: Okay.
DC: I ask a question, Larry, ask a question. We go back and forth until we reach five, and I have the honor of beginning. Jill, you have worked on all manner of brands. You have experienced brands from a consumer perspective. But we want to go back to the first branding experience that you had that really touched your soul, that had you excited, Jill, you were so into this thing. You w you didn't even realize how much time passed because you were just enthralled with this brand, almost like a first love. What was that brand or brand experience for you?
Jill Dow: I'll tell you this. So I've already revealed my age basically, but um, I grew up in front of the television and was,
LT: don't worry, you're younger than us,
Jill Dow: Well, you don't look it. But, um, I grew up in front of the television and the radio and so in a magical summer day in 1981, I discovered MTV, Music Television. And my
DC: August 1st. August 1st, 1981.
Jill Dow: Ladies, ladies and gentlemen, rock and roll. I will never forget it. I will never forget watching the videos, wanting to be like Madonna and Blondie, and Cindy Lauper and dance like Michael Jackson.
It was, um, I didn't even know that it was a brand I loved until you start growing up, right? And you start to see the iterations and the impact that M T V has had and still has. It is like a pop culture icon and I am here for it. I still watch some of the reality shows on there, which is, I know, probably sad, but I just think that they're just a brilliant group of marketers. Um, I just feel like that platform not only helped sell records for artists, which, obviously didn't know it back then. I was 10. Right. Yeah. Um, but I remember going out and buying the albums and seeing the videos and wanted to come back and, you know, un listen to the VJs. I wanted to be, um, Martha Quinn or any, I just wanted to be on the TV actually. So that was a brand, um, and just an empire that I loved from the start and I still love them. Um, You know, I think about videos, how it evolved, and then there was like the Ghostbusters, um, video and how like Hollywood started to get involved and they were literally creating theater for, um, movies and just for, just to, you know, have the screen come alive to songs that you were just listening to, you know, on a radio or in your car.
So mm-hmm, I, I stand by it. I just think it's, um, and there are many, I mean, I am a purse and shoe junkie, so I could have said a lot of things. Um, but M T V to me is, it's more, it's more than a brand to me. Um, but I, that, that would be my answer.
LT: So, Jill, I know DC's laughing because we literally just came off. Uh, a client meeting where we use M T V as a case study.
Jill Dow: No way.
LT: For where they're, for a lot of the things that they're trying to go. So that's why DC said August 1st, 1981 because we, we literally just, and, and we've been using it and this was a, a, a meeting that we, we've had a lot of meetings with these folks. Um, sure. And they wholeheartedly embrace this, um, wonderful client. But, um, so I love your answer and think about, you were 10 at that point and Brand Nerds. I wanna point something out. When you connect with kids, when you connect with people when they're youngsters, uh, Jill is still a huge MTV person many years later, we don't have to say how many years. Right, Jill and several. The point, the point is, when you resonate at that level, when you really emotionally connect with people, you really have consumers for life basically. And dare I say this, Jill, they've lost their way. They've really lost their way because for the first 20 years or so of M T V, they built upon music in so many different ways. Again, we know all this right from spring break to, to, uh, you know, um, all the wonderful shows that they did. Right. And, you know, really they were the, the epicenter of really making reality TV work, you know, with real world. So yes, you know, you think about what they did and we believe they've really lost their way.
And it's, and it's, and as a marketer, it's a shame for us to see.
Jill Dow: Yeah, it's interesting. I, you know, I didn't, I wasn't watching a whole lot obviously when I was in college, which was like the Beavis and Butthead era and I'm okay with it , but I didn't watch well.
LT: I was a huge fan. I dunno what that says about me
Jill Dow: It was hilarious. But I, you know, I just was like probably, you know, studying or at a bar both. Um, so, but I agree and I do miss, I think that's why we're so, so nostalgic about M T V is because it isn't the same as it was. I respect, you know, the fact that they're trying to evolve. Because I think things like TikTok and the other social channels are kind of taking over in terms of consuming videos and, and music too. Um, but I understand what you're saying completely. It just, it did, did take me back 40 years like crazy.
LT: Love that example though. Really do. Crazy example.
Jill Dow: I think it's crazy that you were just talking about it. I thought DC had some sort of identical memory. It was like August 1st, second .
DC: No, no, no, no, no. Less than two hours ago. Less than two hours ago.
Jill Dow: That's amazing,
DC: Larry. Next question.
LT: Go to the next question. Sure. So, uh, Jill, who has Hatters having the most influence on your career?
Jill Dow: Okay. Um, I, I'll make this quicker. Uh, I wanted to be Diane Sawyer since I was 13 years old. Um, she didn't necessarily have an effect on me except I wanted to be in broadcast journalism, um, which brought me to Bryant University at the time where I had a professor named Mary Lyons. God bless her, she's like 90 years old. She's still there. She teaches communications. Um, she is the person that not only hired me as her intern out of the entire student body of her, of her students to be able to work on writing and things. She's the one that actually noticed that I was creative and she encouraged me to have my dual major be, uh, marketing. So she is the reason why I had my dual major and why I fell in love with advertising and promotions and things of that nature. Um, and then just sidebar, when my first job, um, at Gaskill Associates, Ellis Gaskill, who we sadly lost a couple of years ago, um, was just a huge mentor for me the second I walked in the door. He, um, uh, we were talking about some of the struggles you were as a woman in the business that my first day two things happened. Um, Ellis, who was the owner, he witnessed, um, a, a. one of his employees tell me that I was on a need-to-know basis after he asked me to read a contract, and I asked what it was for and the nature of the contract. And Ellis literally took the contract out of the guy's hand and said, he goes, no. He goes, you're gonna do this with me. And then that same day again, this is my first day, like I'm literally driving white knuckling going nervous about my first job. And then I wa he, he printed something and said, hey, can you edit this letter for me? And I found four mistakes. And I told him, and he goes, you're gonna go far here. He goes, no one ever corrects me. He goes, and I was, I didn't know any better , but he really took to me and I just, when I heard that he passed, it was just, you know, so sad. But I just, he had a huge effect on me as well. So my teacher who brought me literally to Ellis and Ellis, who just helped me, you know, get my feet wet.
DC: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, Brand Nerds. Remember this from what Jill just said. She was asked by the owner of the agency to do something, which is, can you edit this for me? And she actually had the unmitigated gall to do it. Okay? She did it. I'm joking here. I'm joking. Uh, so Brand Nerds particularly those of you all who are early in your career, sometimes you have to do more than what is your best. You have to do what is necessary. And what Jill began to do early is what was necessary and that helped her her career. So that is a great story. With that, I will move on to the next question, Larry, unless you have anything else, brother?
LT: No, go ahead.
DC: All right, next question. You are not sitting in the seat that you are in right now unless you have had a, a string of successes.
It just doesn't happen, right? So you have gotten here because you've earned to be in the position you're in, but no doubt Jill. Through the course of your career, you've had some F ups, you've had a couple , and so we'd like to know what's one where you go, "Hmm, that's a really big one," and what did you learn from it?
Jill Dow: Sure. Uh, my heart is pounding just by even thinking about it again because it, it was a while. Not that I haven't made mistakes, but it was a while ago. Um, just note that I was going to come to you and say that I sent an email to a client talking about that client, but that's not the biggest f up because I think everyone has done that by accident. Um, and he actually agreed with me, which was fine, which is why it wasn't a huge F up. But, um, my first job on the client side, So, which is crazy. I was very new. Um, I was in the Consumer Promotions Department, which meant that I was a liaison with all the brands. It was a great way for me to learn the client side.
Um, and I had lots of awesome responsibilities. Like I would look at RFPs, I would interview agencies, which was advantageous because I came from an agency. Right, right. Um, but the, the thing I loathe the most about that job was I had to like procure premium items for like dating Oh yeah. For like unpacks, right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And so one of the items, um, it was a sun care brand that we were looking for something to attach. And I ended up striking up a conversation, uh, everyone knew in the building with a company that did like, um, SPF, like stickers that would tell you when it was time to reapply sunscreen. Oh, and I had such a great relationship with them and whatever, and so they were going to a trade show, as were we.
And the very nice person, um, asked me to write a letter of recommendation about the, their product, and I completely being a writer in my blood when completely overboard and talked about how efficacious it was and how amazing it was, and completely just didn't even think to mention that, hey, it works in conjunction with the brand that actually pays my salary.
And so I sent it off. I didn't have anybody look at it. Huh? It came back to me from the guy who was very sweet, but he said, he goes, Hey. He goes, I think you're gonna have an issue back at your place, because it was like an email trail of all the senior sales guys that were like, what on earth is she writing?
What is she doing? She screwed up a meeting for me, and I was like, I don't know. I think I had a panic attack. I don't remember. I, I almost fainted in my chair. I had to leave the office. I don't even know if it was even that huge of a thing. But it was bad. Like I felt like it was terrible. I remember that. Like, it also like it was yesterday and it wasn't. Wow. I know. Is that terrible you guys? I mean you, you know.
LT: Okay, so thank you for sharing that. So I have to ask the follow up. What did you do afterwards? How did, how did you deal with it and or fix it?
Jill Dow: Well, I obviously, I, I, you know what's interesting, and this is one of the lessons, is that I did try to talk to two of the sales guys and they wouldn't get a meeting with me because I wanted to apologize.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so that taught me to, um, treat my subordinates. But not that I ever would mistreat them, but it just taught me a lot about how to treat other people knowing that I was extremely remorseful. Um, nothing really, uh, bad happened, like from a sales perspective. I think they had a distribution thing that maybe got delayed, but I just literally tried to be remorseful.
Um, I learned the importance of, um, qualifying my writing and the importance of making sure that my brand had to come first. Um, but you know, I was lucky in the fact that I, I kind of got a heads up before getting, maybe bombarded by a, you know, a boardroom of salesman, which would've been really scary for me.
So, yeah. And ironically I got promoted into a higher position in trade marketing with those same people. So it couldn't have been terribly bad, but it was something that I just always cringe when I think about it.
DC: Yeah. Um, Jill, what I appreciate in what you did there was, there was a, um, a purity of intent when you were writing. Yeah. You were not thinking first, well, how do I turn this to our brand? How does this benefit us? You were asked to do a recommendation. You did the recommendation and you sent it, and your, and, and what you were doing is you, honestly answering the request of that person a, uh, a asking you to do the recommendation just as you did with your boss, your first boss at Ellis.
It was the same thing. Yeah. Do you want me to edit this? I'm going to edit it. What you were not doing with your, with the boss, uh, on your first day work. You were not going, Hmm, he's my boss. How am I going to make it past hour three at the office? You weren't thinking that. You weren't thinking that. So I, I appreciate that in, in what she did.
I do get the F up in it, but I do appreciate that, uh, Jill. I do.
Jill Dow: Thank you. Well, now unfortunately, I always think about obviously my clients and the brands first, but I was the client at the time, so I thought I was doing him a solid. I did, I mean, for like three seconds. Yeah. And,
DC: uh, Larry.
LT: Alright, Jill, next question.
Uh, You know, we are Brands, Beats and Bytes the by the bytes with a y for technology. So regarding technology and marketing, you have really seen the rise of tech through your career, right? Can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech or you can, or areas maybe that they should be leery?
Jill Dow: You know, it's interesting, it's the same answer for both because, um, and again, what I'm about to say has so many definitions, just like marketing does. Um, artificial intelligence, right. It's everywhere. You're seeing. That's, and that was the, um, we were talking about Alexa earlier. Um, all of that's AI too, right?
Mm-hmm. . So artificial intelligence has so many different definitions. There's so many good things about it. Um, because it's data driven, it's precise. It sort of wants you to think logically like a human right. Um, it, it solves problems. Um, it spots trends and behaviors. Um, it's great for my coders in the coding world, you know, for open source coding.
Like it's really awesome. It's great for things like chat bots and things that are not as dangerous, I'll say. But there is this terrible side of AI that is breaching data. Um, you know, getting all of your information and using it against you. There's something that was just in the news called Chat GPT, which universities, we have a lot of educational clients and universities are finding that students are using this technology to write their papers for them.
LT: Yes, I've read about that. I mean, I wish,
DC: oh yeah,
Jill Dow: I wish I had, I love writing, but I was like, if I could have a little assistance, you know, um, The thing is about ai, because I do think it's inevitable because we have a running joke at the agency that, um, robots will take over our existence and our jobs anyway.
I just think it's just a matter of time. But you have to remember that they're not human, right? They wanna act like humans, but they're not humans. So, um, it, you know, mimic the human brain and what they think that the brain wants to do. But it's something that I feel like if we use, um, the science of it and the technology to our advantage, but just make sure that you're creating, um, the data, the content, whatever you're doing in a way that, um, is helpful to the client and to the end user.
I think that that would help too. Mm-hmm. ? It's honestly, I, I, we are just scratching the surface and what this is, it's, it's like 20 years old. We just didn't really call it that 20 years. . Um, so that's what I would say is that I feel like I wanna lean into it. I'm a little nervous about it. Um, depending on how you use it, it could be super expensive.
This chat, G B T is, um, G P T, excuse me, is um, I think it's free right now, but I think they're starting to charge for it. So, I don't know. I think the cash, I think it's pretty new. That's, that it's been happening. It's interesting to me though.
LT: It's funny that you brought it up cuz our La Rodney Northern Rodney brought this up. Our last guest. Yeah, yeah.
Jill Dow: Oh, really?
LT: Brought up the guest. So, I mean, it, it's, it's something I think that says a lot that we are, we as marketers are really on this. And, and I think you said it right, like you've gotta lean in, but with your eyes wide open, you know?
Jill Dow: Right.
LT: Um, to that point, I read that this, a writer wrote this article Who, who, who's a writer by profession. And he gave this AI uh, um, I guess bot the, uh, uh, you know, um, this writing assignment. And he wanted to see what would come back. And he was like, oh my God, it's really good. And actually he thought that this could be really good for his process because it, it's a real, sometimes the hardest part of writing is getting started.
Jill Dow: Right.
LT: And so he actually, you know, gave this, the, the, the AI bought the, the, the same assignment he had and he said it really helped him. So go figure.
Jill Dow: I'm sure it does. I just think you have to read it or else you're gonna have a bunch of like, runoff sentences and non-sequitur and I just, so you have to just make sure the logic is there, but it's not your logic. Right. So you have to put your spin on it too.
LT: Totally.
Jill Dow: Um, it's ingenious. It just, you know, it's scary. It's scary.
LT: D, anything to add or you wanna go to the next question?
DC: I have one thing to add and then I'm gonna hop to the next question. So let's remember this, the name, it's called AI, Artificial Intelligence.
Jill Dow: Yes.
DC: Let's break this down. The definition of artificial made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural. So that's what artificial means. Intelligence means the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. So the ability to apply knowledge and skills as produced by a human, as produced by a human.
Here is what I am, I'm, I'm dubious about, uh, Jill and, and Larry, I understand that AI through Chat GPT, is it GPT? Chat? Uh, G PT Chat. G G P T. All right. That it can do a paper, but what I wanna know is can it do a love letter? Does it, does it have that ability? And, and maybe it does. I wanna know that, can, can, can I talk to this artificial intelligence and get it to do a love letter to my fiance that looks like something to her that I would write.
When we get there, let me know. Let me know. . Ok. So that's, that's, you can do one every week. You can do one every week. Let let me know. Alright, here we go. Final question.
Jill Dow: Yeah.
DC: Jill, what are you most proud of?
Jill Dow: Oh boy. Um, I'll tell you, it's gonna sound corny. Um, but I feel like I was talking about my dad a little bit, and he has the most integrity of any man that I know, inclu and, and it, my husband as well. Um, they remind me a lot of each other, and I, he just always told me, because he worked at the same organization for 30 years before he retired, and he just said, Hey. He goes, all you have is your good word and your name. And so I feel like, um, I, I don't think I've burned any bridges unless I intended to, but I really just tried to lead myself personally and professionally with integrity and kindness and compassion because I, and especially now, I mean, I think about as I'm entering this stage of my career, and I know some people that have no one to refer to in the professional world because of things that they have done wrong or done, people dirty. Um, You know, I, I am proud of how I've held myself. Um, and I'm proud of my accomplishments. I rarely talk about this . Um, but what I also am very grateful for and what I'm proud of is that I was able to find love the second time around with my husband and I've been married together for six years, but married, and he's got two kids that I just adore too.
So I feel like, you know, I don't know if I could have had it all back then. And I think that's another lesson for the women in the world. It's like you try to do everything. It's, I mean, I'm 51. It's like, I don't know if I could have done that at at that time. I really don't know. So that's probably a silly answer, but that's really the truth.
LT: That is an amazing answer. So
DC: It is an amazing answer.
Jill Dow: Oh, thank you.
LT: That really is, I mean, that, that goes right to the heart. And so Jill, we have to put like, you know, the faces, so you need to give us your dad's name, where he worked for 30 years, your husband's name, and we need names, so we give those, those folks their flowers too.
Jill Dow: Oh, thank you. My dad's name is Ted K. He is walking on this earth, um, stubborn still trying to work as a handyman in his retired life got his real estate license. Wow. Uh, wow. He's awesome. I I love him. He's my hero. Um, I love my mom too. Her name is Dawn. I don't want her to get angry. Um, I love my mom too. And Michael Dow is my husband and he is a self-made entrepreneur. He's a physical therapist, but has a lot of offices and came from absolutely nothing. Nothing, ah, and built and has the same, you know, not an enemy in the world and just a great, great guy. Really good guy. Thank you for, for that. That's sweet. Thank you.
DC: Yes, thanks. Your name. I don't have anything, brother.
LT: Yeah, I think that stands on its own, don't you?
DC: Yes, it does.
LT: All right, we're gonna go to the next section. So, so D, Jill, what's popping?
Jill Dow: Okay,
DC: What's popping?
Jill Dow: So, there's lots of threads here.
LT: Wait, wait. Now Jill, we gotta, oh, sorry. Cut the brand nerds. We're gonna let you go though. We're gonna, I know you're chomp. This is our chance.
DC: Hey. Hey, Larry. Larry, what's popping? Jill's popping. Okay. That's what's popping. All right, go ahead.
LT: That's right. So this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And Jill, the floor is yours.
Jill Dow: Thank you. I'm so sorry. I was so excited. See, this is happens. I've learned nothing from those, from the F up and my first day at my first job where I just jump right in and don't even think I have to stop and think. But what I will tell you, because we're living this, we live it personally with our kids, um, and our families, and we're living it at York and Chapel as well is digital addiction. I wanted to talk about it. Mm, right, because I, I see it, I see it at the dinner table, right? Scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. A lot of that ties into artificial intelligence and that it's programmed to keep you looking. Um, there's a lot of mental health issues as a result of people being, covid didn't help, but people being reclusive and just wanting to be on their devices all the time and losing themselves into, um, dms and, you know, responding to people that they don't know who they are. Um, there's been lots of cyber bullying that has been put onto social channels that has resulted in suicides with young people. It is devastating to me. Um, and it's just something. I don't, I don't really know what to solve is. I think from a house to house basis, you limit the times on your phone, you take the phones away, but I just think it's a pervasive problem that is worth talking about.
LT: Ohhh
Jill Dow: Is that too heavy? For what?
LT: No, it's not too heavy. Amazing topic. Actually.
DC: Not, not, not at all.
Jill Dow: It's really scary.
DC: Not at all. We've not discussed this topic on our, on our podcast, I don't think, Larry.
LT: Not directly, no. So we're, we're really happy you brought this up. Um mm-hmm. So if, if I, if you don't mind, D, I'm gonna jump in to just sort of set the landscape that, that Jill just put forth. And a lot of us have kids and, you know, um, I like to say this all the time. Our son Jake's about to turn 20 and, um, my wife's, uh, my wife's best friend, uh, sh whose also name is, we have two Sherrys her daughter, Kaylee is 10 years older. Mm-hmm. And so I'm bringing this up. So when Jake was, uh, when Jake was 10 years old in 2013, the iPhone was already in place, right? When Kaylee was 10 years old. Uh, 10 years before that. In 2003, there was no iPhone. So, um, you're demarking the, these, you know, these generations, and I bring that up because I think the smartphone is the differentiator, right? And so kids who, so Jake grew up, his first phone was an iPhone. Mm-hmm. And so the kids grow up with it. And as a parent, you've got, you're either in or you're out. You, you have to, you know, even for communication, at some point your kid's gonna get a phone and there are parents who hold out and God bless 'em. I'm not judging anybody, but it's hard, right? It's hard. And so once you get that phone and I'm showing you, put it up to your face, It's over, right? That's where you're going to digital addiction, Jill. And it, it's really difficult to manage. It's difficult for adults to manage, let alone, you know, kids who are, you know, preteens and whatnot. And so we, as marketers, let's, let's be honest, we're using these phones and the applications and all that there are to speak to our consumers. We have to, as marketers, we have to use that. But what is the optimal way to do it? And is there a way to do it that you can hold as, as a certain brand, can maybe be the leader in taking, uh, taking all there is from technology and being a better steward of it for our consumers? And I throw that out. I don't have the answer, but that's something I think that some brand can take the lead on.
And I think that that would be embraced in a huge way.
Jill Dow: Right. It, it's interesting, um, I just wanted to respond very quickly cuz I'm sure DC has something to say as well.
DC: No, no, go Go ahead Jill. Go ahead.
Jill Dow: Oh, is that, um, all of it comes down to content and responsible content and it is like, it's again, it pays our bills. Right? It's part, it's one of the huge verticals that York and Chapel has and we, you know, we take that challenge very, very seriously because of everything that's going on. Um, you know, it helped us serve as a lifeline during covid for certain brands. Right? Sure. Um, but, you know, it's difficult to understand what is actually that, that was almost gonna be in my, what's popping was just content in general. Um, but it's too, there's too much to talk about because it's, it Right. Is ingrained in so many other things. So to me it's about choiceful content. Um, a little bit of censorship. Right. Which I know, um, I don't wanna do that in a way that stifles people's creativity or their rights, but, you know, there's got stuff that's not okay.
Like on t there's the most horrific things on TikTok, you know? Yeah. And so I don't, I don't, I don't know. You just have to try to be able to monitor it mon, monitor it a little bit better. Um, but, you know, for CPG brands or agencies, like, who the heck wants to look at a TikTok from me? Nobody. Right. You know, you wanna be able to find something that's, you know, part of their passion. So it's an ongoing thing with us when we talk to our clients about it. It's, it's, uh, it's a big deal. It's a big deal.
DC: Jill, I'd never paused to truly have the synapses fire on this subject until you brought it up just now. Mm-hmm. And as you know, we're in this business. You, you cannot do marketing today and not do digital marketing and do marketing through mobile devices. It is, it is impossible. Cannot do it.
Jill Dow: Right?
DC: So as I, I think about the words digital addiction, I, I categorize that as a, what, what is happening? Digital addiction, how is that happening? So that's through mobile devices. So we have the what and the how. What we don't have yet is the why, why is their digital addiction and why is it that the digital addiction is, is gripping, uh, humanity through mobile devices? And I'm going to attempt to tell you all why I think that's the case. And I'm gonna go back to March 25th, 2011.
Jill Dow: Wow.
DC: Brand Nerds, this was the final Oprah Winfrey show episode, the final show. Hmm. I'm going to read a paragraph from this show. It says, and this is from Oprah. "I've talked to nearly 30,000 people on this show and all." 30,000. 30,000, y'all. "...had one thing in common. They all wanted validation. Mm-hmm. If I could reach through this television and sit on your sofa and sit on your stool in your kitchen right now, I would tell you that every single person you will ever meet shares that common desire. They want to know, do you see me? Do you hear me? Does what I say mean anything to you?" This is Oprah Brand Nerds, back in 2011, I believe that is why there is digital addiction. Because at our, at our fingertips now is the ability for us as humanity to get some form of validation. We can be. Do you see me? Yes. Let me take my, this is me. I'm with my friends. We're having a wonderful dinner. Do you hear me? I'm TikTok. I'm saying something funny. Does what I say mean anything to you? Yes, I know, cuz I can look at your comments to see if it means anything. I can see how, how many likes I have or how often it's been reposted or retweeted. Those are all of the, uh, forensic pieces of evidence, if you will, of my validation now. So what can be done about it? I would like to flip Oprah's final three questions. Her final three question is: Do you see me? Do you hear me? Does what I say mean anything to you? Here is, Brand Nerds, where I think we should be going. Do I see me? Do I hear me? Does what I say mean anything to me? Once I think we start to do that, we are less involved in seeking validation from the outside, other people, this device and others, and more about on the inside. So that is a hell of a, what's popping, Jill. Hell of a What's popping?
Jill Dow: Well leave it to you and Oprah Winfrey by the way, because I think the book always stops with Oprah. For me, I hope she throws her hat in the ring in a couple years. I'm just saying. Um, I love her and I love that. That was so many years ago too.
LT: Yeah. I was support when you said 2011 D, I was like, what?
DC: 2011 yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 12 years ago. There are some universal truths.
LT: Yeah. So Jill, this is why my partner is one of the main reasons why he's brilliant. Like you brought up something that, again, Brand Nerds, we've told you this, we, we don't know when, uh, our guests or us bring up a what's popping. We do this organically, so we, we have no idea what's coming is for DC to take that and, uh, and, and interpret it and really make sense of it from the validation standpoint. It's totally true. Uh, I think you, you're, you nailed it. And we as a society, that's what you're saying, D, we have to deal with that. Right. And there's all kinds of things from parents to way people are brought up. And quite honestly, this is where I also think that the social media run amok, you know, for them to continue to, to, to be not regulated and to just do their thing because , it's a, it's a dopamine rush. People have said this.
DC: Yeah.
LT: To get that validation, right? Yes. Or to seek it. Yes. You know, that's what you're doing with TikTok and all these things. Right. Um, and so it's something that we as a society and we as marketers, really have to, uh, have to not only pay attention to, but ultimately deal with.
Jill Dow: I I love that you said dopamine because they do call it a behavioral stimulant. That's what they call if they're, if they're trying to, you know, assign like a medically adjacent term to it, which, and it's like 200 million people supposedly. I don't know how they're qu quantifying that, but have this addiction, which is just insane. Insane.
LT: Wow. So where the 200 million people there, is that a just an estimate by somebody?
Jill Dow: I think I read it or I saw it on like, okay, good Morning America or something. Right. Um, but I think I read it and, but what I didn't know and what I should maybe go find out is what is the age group of that?
LT: Right.
Jill Dow: What, what's the makeup of that number? It'd be very interesting to know.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. Jill, this has been awesome. Like DC said, that's amazing. Uh, that's an amazing what's poppin. And again, it's, it's something we've, we've been around, but we haven't just had this deep conversation that you, uh, you put us into. So we thank you for that. Um,
Jill Dow: Thank you. Yeah, thank you.
LT: We are at the show close. Wow. We're at the show close, Jill. Yeah, I know. This has been so much fun, Jill. Um, just what we thought this, this conversation, uh, has, has been just that it's a conversation Brand Nerds. We, we like to, uh, hope that you think, you see us having a conversation amongst the three of us, like, well, we were at Pete's Coffee and, uh, you happen to be privy to it. So, uh, we, uh, we love when it evolves or devolves into that. So, um, that's a show close. So, um, Jill, what we do here is I'm gonna put forth, uh, my learnings and, uh, and then, uh, and then D, do his and. This is why we changed my, I might do a pretty good job at opening, but he kills it in the close, so I just do, uh, the, the obvious ones and I'm gonna do, I have five.
Jill Dow: I can't wait.
LT: From Jill that we've learned. So the first one, brand nerds is study, study, study. Number one, always look to learn and then figure out how you can apply it. That's what Jill did from day one. And another thing she did from day one is, this is the second one, speak truth to power like Jill did on her first day of her real job, Brand Nerds. If you do this respectfully, you always wanna do this respectfully. Um, 99% of people are gonna react the way, uh, the, the founder of Jill's agency did. And the 1% who don't, you don't want to be there anyway. So it's really important. Speak truth to power. Third from Jill's F Up like Jill, own up to your mistake. We all f up. Own up to it. Take responsibility. Number four. From Jill F Up too. If you are a marketer, and that's most of you who are listening, you need to think about your brand first and how whatever you do professionally, you'd be think you need to be thinking, how can what I'm doing positively impact my brand? So that's the, the fourth one. And my last one, I just love this one, like Jill said, in, uh, what she's most proud of. Your good word is you. And that means treating people with, with respect and kindness. And guess what, if you do all these things well, you can end up from being an entry level sales promotion person to being a CEO like Jill has. So those are mine.
DC: Wow. Wow. Larry. Outstanding. And there's some overlap, Jill, on Brand, Beats, and Bytes, uh, the attempt that I make, as I sit here, uh, looking at the screen at you is to not only li listen to what you say, but to listen to what you mean. My mother, my mother's name is Gloria, she's since passed. She taught me that. And what I'm going to do next is play back what I thought you were saying and what I thought you meant by what you were saying. I'm also going to, uh, tell you what, what I am feeling about who you are as a human. Wow. What is your special place here on this planet? Uh, so let, let me go through it, uh, when in the get comfy section ask you about being a woman and escalating to the highest parts of, uh, of business.
You vulnerably talked about, uh, you weren't able to have children, right? Um, you were married for 10 years, you since divorced that, uh, that person, and you poured yourself into your work. This is what you said. Mm-hmm. You poured yourself into your work. And this aligns with what Larry was saying about you being hardworking, but you used the word poured yourself into the, to your work.
Then you talked about your first day on the job, your first day on the job, and the, your, your, the owner of the agency gives you this document and says, edit it for me. And you actually edited. You did not think about or consider, well, he is the owner. I'm not certain how he will take me saying to him, you've missed these four things you just did.
And I would s I, I would submit that what you were doing when you were asked to complete that assignment, you poured yourself into that assignment. You poured yourself into that assignment. Now, MTV, you mentioned that that is the brand that I love in 1981, 10 years old. Jill, you said you really love that brand. You still watched some of that brand today, but you mentioned a couple of folks in particular, Madonna and Michael Jackson. Mm-hmm. you said I wanted to be Madonna and I wanted to dance like Michael Jackson. I, I believe as a 10 year old, you were vicariously pouring yourself into Madonna and Michael. I can be like these people. And then on the question of your biggest F up, you said, I was asked to do a recommendation. I did the recommendation. I did not say anything about a brand. I did not try to bring it back to our work so that we could get more business. I just did what was asked. Why did you do that, Jill? I think because you poured yourself into that request. Now I had all of this down about you before you said this final thing. So all of this was done. Cause I take notes as we go along. Mm-hmm. Then you said, um, when you said like, uh, what are you most proud of? And you talk, you talked about integrity and you mentioned your father, Ted, also Dawn, your mother.
Jill Dow: Yes.
DC: Your father Ted. And your husband Michael. And you said, you said these men are two of the most high integrity people I have ever met. And then you said your father said to you, in terms of integrity, all you have is your good word. All you have is your good word. So as I amalgamate all of that, here is what I believe is your special, your superpower in this world. You pour out and pour in integrity. You pour out and pour in integrity. Alright, now, uh, you pour out cuz you go, you, you pour it out because that's what's inside of you, that's what's what's taught to you. So it makes sense that you would edit without thinking about the consequences. It makes sense that you would do a recommendation and not think about the brand. It, it, it makes sense that you would, that you would say, oh, Madonna, Michael, that it makes sense that you would pour yourself into your work because there's a purity to that in you. Finally, I'll say this. Behind you in your home. Ba Brand Nerds. You can't see this. Jill is in a wonderfully appointed office. Behind her is a small table with a flower arrangement on it. Beautiful purple flowers. I can't see the type of flower. Um, orchid. What type of flowers are those?
Jill Dow: It's an orchid. It, they're fake, but they're orchids.
DC: They're fake. That's right. Ok, orchid. Okay. It's, it's, it's, it's an orchid and there's a mirror behind it. There's, there's a mirror behind it. Um, um, here's what I'm gonna recommend. You do two things, Jill. Every time you see a vase, every time you see one, use that as a reminder of how you both pour out and pour in integrity. A vase that holds water. The second thing I'm gonna ask you to do is find a vase somewhere in your home. Place it somewhere as a reminder of this extraordinary gift you have. We do not have enough integrity in the world. Mm-hmm. You are one of those who can give that to us. You already have. Please continue to do so. That's my takeaway of you, my sister.
Jill Dow: Oh my goodness. I feel like I'm having a Barbara Walters crying on the couch. the talking DC Both of you guys are so lovely. Thank you so much. It's been such a, so,
LT: So, Jill, you earned all this. Really. Um, yeah. So is there anything that you've learned from our wonderful conversation here today?
Jill Dow: Um, I just love to be able to, cuz I didn't know you folks, um, before coming on here and I just love the fact that at my age I can still come into a discussion and a meeting and, and learn something. And we all have our own histories and our own stories and, um, just hearing your perspectives and how insanely smart you both are and quick-witted. I just love that. I would love to come back and host with you, but if I'm assuming that all the seats are taken, but I just, I, I loved it. I really, really loved it. And the one thing that I always say to employees that, um, that leave our organization, that they're moving onto a different stage in their life. I always quote my favorite fortune cookie, it's not Oprah, but it sounds like it. "It's good to begin well, better to end well." So I always, I I take that wherever I go. It's my favorite fortune cookie. I know. Um,
LT: I never heard that before. I love that.
Jill Dow: I got that. Ah, 35 years ago probably. And
DC: Wow, that is good.
Jill Dow: Yeah. So, um, you know, I think you guys are living that same life too. You, you folks worked with each other, right? I mean, you guys all know each other Yeah. For years. And that says a lot to your relationships too. So you're a living testament to, what I'm trying to do too is to just, you know, stay true to yourself and, um, keep people around you that you care about.
LT: That's a mic drop right there, right? . Um, so we're gonna go to the show close here. Uh, Brand Nerds. Thanks for listening to the Brands, Beats and Bytes recorded virtually on zoom and a production of KZSU Stanford, 90.1 FM radio worldwide at kzsu.org. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, myself, Larry Taman, Joseph Anderson, Jade Tate, Hailey Cobbin, and Tom Dioro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: And if you are listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. And we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing with another great business leader as our guest.