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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:05 - 00:00:28:11
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to Story Behind the Stone, a show where we talk service, sacrifice and story. I'm your host, Matthew Cudmore, and I'm so pleased to welcome to this show. Today I have two guests joining me. Today we have Alicia Costello, a historian with the Texas Historical Markers Program, with the Texas Historical Commission, and Ta'Na Alexander with the Choctaw Code Talkers Association in Oklahoma.
00:00:28:13 - 00:00:30:05
Speaker 1
I'm so pleased to welcome you both to the show.
00:00:30:11 - 00:00:32:00
Speaker 2
Thanks for having us. Yeah.
00:00:32:00 - 00:00:44:22
Speaker 1
Thanks, Matt and Alicia. I'll turn the microphone to you first. We'd love to give listeners just a quick sense of who the Texas Historical Commission are, what your mandate is, how many things are keeping you busy. We'd love to learn more and share more with our listeners.
00:00:45:00 - 00:01:15:02
Speaker 2
Thank you. So the Texas Historical Commission is the state agency for historic preservation in Texas. That looks like many things from economic development with historic preservation that looks like review of archeology and architectural resources in Texas. And for our purposes today, that looks like a robust state historical marker program that is about 17,000 strong at this point. Markers not people.
00:01:15:02 - 00:01:29:19
Speaker 1
Sadly, it's a huge state, a huge mandate, and so many markers to keep track of. We're interested in learning more. And thank you so much for coming on the show. Ta'Na I'll turn the microphone to you. If you could give us a 30,000ft view of yourself and what the association is trying to accomplish.
00:01:30:00 - 00:02:20:20
Speaker 2
Well, there could be hours we'd spend on a large overview of the amount of time and dedication the association has been able to give over the last 26 years of its existence. The story really matters. And for me personally, as a descendant of one of the original code talkers, and I feel the primary goal of the association is so that we can reach younger audiences to realize the importance of the past, and preserving these levels of historical monuments and storytelling that really connects and unites us as American citizens and really join forces with our allies, even better and stronger in the modern day, because this is a shared heritage with national recognition at this point,
00:02:20:20 - 00:02:47:10
Speaker 2
which has taken a long time to get to this point in essence, me as the spokesperson for the association, the main objective is to continue to honor their sacrifice because it was one sworn to secrecy. I hope that is clear and expressing the level of honor that is really held so dear to my heart as a descendant and hoping to connect to others.
00:02:47:16 - 00:02:54:16
Speaker 1
There is a plaque that has been revealed in Texas. If we could start Ta'Na with kind of the significance of the plaque.
00:02:54:18 - 00:03:36:11
Speaker 2
Well, there is a really cool thing that connects the code talkers of World War One and Texas, specifically the Fort Worth area and their marker allows a brief overview to honor the men who were sworn to a silent code that was then utilized to have a successful campaign during that time. And we actually know that the native soldiers were able to join the U.S. Army and train at Camp Bowie prior to shipping out in France.
00:03:36:16 - 00:04:37:19
Speaker 2
They gathered, and October 1st, 1917, they were then a part of the 142nd Infantry. Those grounds where the marker exists happened to be where those men once walked in their boots training. And that's the significant part. When you go and visit that marker, you can walk along the same paths in spirit, knowing they were there and having that marker placed with that kind of pure intent, conveying the inventors of a language that was used that was not documented in order to have our victory with that time frame is significant that you can continue to have their story live and breathe on with the marker that's placed in Fort Worth.
00:04:38:01 - 00:04:47:21
Speaker 1
Thank you for sharing that back story. Alicia and the Texas Historical Commission had a part to play here as well. And making this come together. Tell us a little bit about the journey and the process.
00:04:47:23 - 00:05:14:01
Speaker 2
So the marker itself is part of a Texas Historical Commission program for what we call undertone markers. These markers are a select group that is applied for every year. We only select 15 of them. And the state actually pays for these markers. So all the other historical markers the applicant actually pays for those. But this group the state pays for it.
00:05:14:02 - 00:05:41:18
Speaker 2
So this marker, when I came in was a little a little application from many years ago that had been applied and was accepted. However, it was taking some time to get all the pieces together. We were really like, hey, let's, you know, let's go ahead and sort of start this process. And so I contacted our tribal liaison here at the THC.
00:05:41:18 - 00:06:08:17
Speaker 2
Her name is Marie Archambault. Want to give her a shout out. And we together went to the Choctaw Nation. The original application was just for the topic of Choctaws in Texas. I guess the applicant realized that there weren't that many Texas historical markers that actually shared Choctaw stories. So we went to the Choctaw Nation and we said, hey, what is the story that you guys would like, expressed or told on a marker?
00:06:08:17 - 00:06:35:10
Speaker 2
They came back to us with this wonderful Choctaw code talkers, story. I'll admit I had not heard of it. And so I was very excited to get to dive in and work with the Choctaw Nation in collaboration. They had already had a lot of research and a lot of attention and a lot of information about them. We are just excited to reflect that story on a historical marker here in Texas.
00:06:35:12 - 00:06:57:19
Speaker 2
Once we realized the code talkers were going to be the topic of the marker, that's when we started conversations with the City of Fort Worth and the Tarrant County Historical Commission about moving that marker from its original county, which was Shelby County and East Texas, into Tarrant County and the Fort Worth area and the Tarrant County Historical Commission.
00:06:57:19 - 00:07:20:17
Speaker 2
I have to give them the next shout out, because they worked tirelessly for two years to get us the placement at Veterans Memorial Park there in Fort Worth. The story has so much meaning to that area, because it is that that park is at Camp Bowie, where the Choctaw code talkers trained like T was mentioning. It is such an honor.
00:07:20:17 - 00:07:34:17
Speaker 2
You feel it when you're there. That hustle and bustle almost that this park used to have as an active training site and to have their stories reflected at the place where they trained, is really pretty special.
00:07:34:19 - 00:07:40:20
Speaker 1
And Ta'Na as a descendent, what did it feel like to be on site to see it kind of come to life?
00:07:41:02 - 00:08:09:07
Speaker 2
Incredible. Just to speak a little on Alicia's point and being able to discover how much information is actually available now, and the oath of secrecy following the World War One, to me, expresses the level of honor to their word. Their word was the bond. Originally that was created in the modern day. We give this comedic feel to the story line.
00:08:09:08 - 00:08:36:13
Speaker 2
There was a U.S. general over listening a group of native men talking in their native tongue. He wasn't able to understand them, and most likely we just kind of create this, you know, moment in time where he could have thought, well, if I can't understand them, then someone else cut in. The point for me as a descendent is being able to know that it was a sworn secrecy they held to their word.
00:08:36:13 - 00:09:15:21
Speaker 2
They eventually joined forces with the U.S. Army, knowing that Texas and Camp Bowie really was a sacred spot, almost because no one knew of their support until the French government shared their appreciation of their service. In 1989, they visited Oklahoma. They allowed the story to flourish publicly, and the recognition not just from my family, but many who connect the story by bloodline.
00:09:15:21 - 00:09:56:22
Speaker 2
We didn't even know the full truth. For decades. We had stories and images a lot like what I've heard growing up from my mom and her setting over at her grandma's. Many families, including my own. Being connected by blood, is unique in itself because a lot of us were not able to express the full truth for decades until the French government lifted that layer for the public eye, the shared heritage across nations is one thing that can connect us all, and that would be the power of language.
00:09:56:22 - 00:10:28:00
Speaker 2
So when I think about what it connects for me personally as a descendant and the importance of conveying this shared heritage across nations, to me it is about the impact and the power of language. We can utilize that in a shared unity, not only for the importance of their story, but so that with the Choctaw language becoming a tool that allowed the success in World War.
00:10:28:00 - 00:10:49:14
Speaker 2
One effort gives you almost this deeper, thought provoking statement like knowing the past with respect allows us to honor the future as it comes, because the words from past to present carry that power to uplift and truly unite for the greater good.
00:10:49:14 - 00:10:58:05
Speaker 1
Ta'Na, tell me a little bit about language and identity. How many speakers of Choctaw are there and what are you doing to preserve it and kind of celebrate it?
00:10:58:05 - 00:11:25:15
Speaker 2
Today we do have a very robust language program through the Choctaw Nation. There are events that we actually put on so that individuals can hear it in real time. And we can do that from K to 12 to university level, where we are able to share certain parts of our language. It is studied also at the University of Oklahoma.
00:11:25:15 - 00:11:49:05
Speaker 2
How many of the active, fluent speakers that we would have to rely on phoning a friend to be sure that that number was accurate. But the point is that there's still active use of our language. And the cool part about what we do here, just through the association and the events, is allowing people to be code talkers for a day.
00:11:49:05 - 00:12:18:12
Speaker 2
And that's really fun because we can start it with being sure that some of the fundamentals that you might hear if you're walking around, say, Tribal Plaza or walking into the headquarters, the greeting is highlighter. It just simply means hello. Even those small seeds that are planted connecting. Oh, me. Good, good, good. You know, Omi is just like a praise of good, right?
00:12:18:12 - 00:12:37:05
Speaker 2
Or I took my, There's certain things that you can use in your daily language. Just as someone might use a more common used language. You hear more frequently. So it's still alive and it continues to thrive. I would say.
00:12:37:06 - 00:12:47:04
Speaker 1
Tell me a little bit about your family and how they look back on this. It was your great, great grandfather, Ben Carterby, if I'm not mistaken. That was one of the code talkers.
00:12:47:07 - 00:13:21:09
Speaker 2
He was one of eight men on the telephone lines as an active code talker during that time. And the cool part about being connected to him knowing he was born December 11th, 1893, in Bethel, where there was a particular image always on the mantle, my mom would always be gravitated to that particular image and she'd say, you know, grandma, like, who is that man in this uniform?
00:13:21:11 - 00:14:01:08
Speaker 2
And she would say, well, that's your grandpa. There was a longing or curiosity when she would look at the mantle with his uniform and standing there, very stoic. I feel like it's a divine purpose and aligned so beautifully as it evolved in having that public acknowledgment, her being able to be president now of the association, having that connection, then before really realizing it due to the level of secrecy that was held, there's stories and stories that I could share.
00:14:01:09 - 00:14:30:13
Speaker 2
However, I would be the coolest of many that he's able to be remembered by. First, an image on a mantle in our home and really having a humble beginning that can be remembered of humanizing him not just as a weapon of war. For language, he can be thought of as a great great grandfather. Someone that had been removed from Mississippi, relocated to the home place in a wooded mountain.
00:14:30:13 - 00:14:56:10
Speaker 2
He was the hero. And all of that to say that because he joined and he went and he saw and he experienced really one of the most devastating world wars of our time, he was able to come back. He wasn't able to share a lot, but there are some archived articles. A reporter had said something along the lines of, hey, you know, Ben Carr to me, how was it in combat?
00:14:56:10 - 00:15:21:10
Speaker 2
And he said, all I could say is I came, I saw, and the importance of coming back was what he landed. That final remark was he came back. I feel like that's what keeps me grounded, even though I never met him or shared the same experience as my mother, who witnessed his image on a mantle. These are veterans and their story is not as widely told.
00:15:21:10 - 00:15:55:19
Speaker 2
And when you think about the huge level of sacrifice and secrecy belonging to them, that same secrecy didn't exist necessarily to the extent in later wars. So that's why they deserve a highlighted understanding for others to realize just how significantly these code talkers, the telephone warriors created the connection and we inherited a legacy. It's our job to honor it today for future generations.
00:15:55:19 - 00:16:09:08
Speaker 1
Many people are familiar with the Navajo Code Talkers, World War two, but the Choctaw really were pioneers. World War one. It's less known you've been working on a film and a book. Tell us a little bit about those.
00:16:09:13 - 00:17:06:06
Speaker 2
We want to recognize with the association World War One and beyond, right. It's really the pioneers, as you said, and the Voices of Valor short film articulate that. These men did, in fact use the Choctaw language. But there was two Chickasaw men in the same infantry. Well, they were brother tribes, so there's a lot of history there. The film itself gives a strong enough overview to convey beginning to end in about 15 minutes, which is a great way to be able to allow this understanding and potentially what it feels like to carry this story forward so others can connect and share the same path of unity because of their sacrifice and honoring that legacy for
00:17:06:06 - 00:17:11:10
Speaker 2
all veterans and particularly the code talkers of World War One.
00:17:11:10 - 00:17:14:16
Speaker 1
You have a book on Amazon as well. What were you trying to accomplish with that book?
00:17:14:17 - 00:18:15:03
Speaker 2
The book on Amazon, titled Telephone Warriors at the beginning entry of what the Story is. All of what happened from the timeline, from the beginning of utilizing their language, how the testimony of the Army was reorganized in a way that allowed training to be at Camp Bowie, transmitting messages in the Choctaw language from highway signs to images that were captured moments before they shipped out to Franch, various Texas Trail of Tears of Fame and Fort Worth Stockyards monument statues, and then the coolest part storylines that we were able to get from all of the years of research and the men who changed the course of war and allowing a successful campaign under each name.
00:18:15:06 - 00:18:43:14
Speaker 2
It humanizes them. It tells the reader where they were, what they did, where they were born, and the connection to Texas. So it's really, really a neat book, along with the film, to were able to experience both at one time and get the story line, but really make it about honoring a legacy that still is relevant to the modern day.
00:18:43:20 - 00:19:09:17
Speaker 2
Because of the importance of not just our veterans and our heroes, but a sacrifice and what that means for all of us because of these men and their silence. That is what created the path towards unity. And that is not just about native or non-Native, but American and our allies abroad. We're connected through a shared heritage.
00:19:09:17 - 00:19:23:03
Speaker 1
Alicia, for any visitors to Fort Worth, what would you recommend building into their itinerary if they wanted to visit this marker you mentioned memorial parks or gardens. Tell us a little bit about how can they could build a day around visiting this important marker.
00:19:23:06 - 00:19:53:11
Speaker 2
Oh well. Memorial Park is in an absolutely beautiful area. And so first I would just say to escape the Texas heat, start with a nice jog through the area. When I went for the dedication of the marker, it was actually my first time to that site and the tremendous beauty, the walkability of that area around this marker. There are numerous sort of little downtowns where you can eat and shop and experience the history.
00:19:53:11 - 00:20:16:10
Speaker 2
We also have a Texas History Navigator app that the Texas Historical Commission produces. If you open the app, we'll show you the historical markers that are around you anywhere in Texas. And so if they visit Veterans Memorial Park, open the app, they can go visit this marker, plus the other markers that are actually in that park and nearby markers.
00:20:16:10 - 00:20:40:03
Speaker 2
So that's what I would recommend. We're very excited as well. That placement in Fort Worth means it's an easier drive for Choctaw Nation visitors as well, because it's it's a few hours, you know, south of Oklahoma. So I would say if you're in Fort Worth or if you're anywhere in Texas, that app again, it's called Texas History Navigator.
00:20:40:05 - 00:20:52:07
Speaker 2
That map feature will show you what historical markers are around, what historic buildings are around you, so you can go and enjoy those, Texas history resources tonight.
00:20:52:07 - 00:21:03:16
Speaker 1
You've been recognized for your work in education, and also you've been doing a lot of work in youth engagement for folks with kids that are listening. What's the best way for them to make this history accessible to their kids?
00:21:03:22 - 00:21:49:13
Speaker 2
So there's a couple of solutions right now. We hope to evolve it to where it's more relatively available. However, the current way to access this curriculum is simply visiting the Facebook or Instagram, sending a direct message to the Choctaw Code Talkers Association, or by sending an email and requesting information for curriculum and scheduling time for appearances. That email is c c t a, which is the acronym for Choctaw Code Talkers Association at gmail.com.
00:21:49:13 - 00:22:05:05
Speaker 2
The email, in essence, would be the quickest way if people aren't plugged in to social media. You could just send over your request for that curriculum and schedule a time for us to make an appearance and share the message.
00:22:05:07 - 00:22:10:21
Speaker 1
Alicia, the Texas Historical Commission Do you have any lesson plans or resources available for parents or teachers?
00:22:10:22 - 00:22:17:06
Speaker 2
We do. Those are on our website at THQ Texas spelled out gov tonight.
00:22:17:07 - 00:22:26:18
Speaker 1
Tell us a little bit more about the ongoing work, the Choctaw Code Talkers Association, and you have some upcoming events this year as well that you could share with us.
00:22:26:18 - 00:23:12:10
Speaker 2
The importance, continuing education and outreach, just sharing the legacy so that it can be work that is deeply meaningful. Just as we're sitting here doing our podcast. And thank you both so much, because it is meaningful on a personal level as this work continues. But that shared relatability is really kind of my heart of hearts and preserving it through the Choctaw Code Talkers Association, knowing these men were Choctaw and Chickasaw, helping shape the course of history when the language had once been threatened and nearly erased, became a critical advantage of World War One.
00:23:12:13 - 00:23:38:18
Speaker 2
And so one thing I'll say before I touch on the events that are coming up is Choctaw Seahawk, which means I am a proud Choctaw by blood I am that, but I'm also just as proud to be an American, and I hope we can connect to the next generation. Engaging youth through the storytelling, film and our cultural event, which is all the preparation.
00:23:38:18 - 00:24:05:06
Speaker 2
I'm running logistics on three day event, the first two days titled the Red Clay route August 21st and 22nd, which is followed by an event titled Red Clay echoes August 27th. To really get plugged in to all of the updates to honor the legacy, knowing that the film will be featured. The Voices of Valor, which conveys the storyline.
00:24:05:06 - 00:24:45:19
Speaker 2
We also have Indigenous and Oklahoma based talent from music, comedy, aerial performances, traditional band fenders, you name it. It will be an amazing time to gather with all walks of life from any age. It's PG 13 on the comedy show and the music is very tasteful. Getting involved could be as simple as texting. Code talkers RCR (240) 532-0211 for really the final take away from all of that is get ready for a good time and a cultural experience.
00:24:45:19 - 00:25:14:09
Speaker 2
But really, to express the gratitude of honoring men and the CTA's belief in me as their spokesperson. The Choctaw Nation, being large supporters of the Association, our French allies and the City of Fort Worth, the Texas Historical Commission, and both of you, Alicia and Matthew. Truly being able to create a space for this conversation does mean a great deal.
00:25:14:09 - 00:25:26:06
Speaker 2
And the final thing would be just to remember that this story was never lost. It was just waiting to be told. And we get to be a part of that which is historical in itself.
00:25:26:07 - 00:25:41:01
Speaker 1
If I could ask just for one comment from you to families or communities that are thinking about becoming history keepers, story keepers, what is one simple thing that you'd recommend that they do that they take away today to ensure that those stories aren't lost.
00:25:41:03 - 00:25:54:08
Speaker 2
Remaining grounded and thoughtful of humble beginnings because our voices can carry and it can be amplified through preserving the stories that we do now in order to impact the future.
00:25:54:08 - 00:26:03:06
Speaker 1
Alicia, I wanted to ask for folks that are listening that want to learn more about the work of the Texas Historical Commission and your work. What's the best way to stay connected?
00:26:03:06 - 00:26:25:04
Speaker 2
I think that would probably take place on our social media accounts. On Instagram. We are t x h. I s t com. That's Texas Historical Commission. You'll find us there with the red icon and the exclamation mark. And we're also on Facebook and on our website, all of the digital presence.
00:26:25:08 - 00:26:29:20
Speaker 1
Alicia, you have some deadlines coming up for the marker program. Could you share a little bit more about what's coming up?
00:26:29:23 - 00:26:58:18
Speaker 2
Sure. If anyone of your listeners knows of Texas stories that they feel would be great to be represented on Texas historical markers, we do have an application process. They can visit our website for more information about that. But under told stories like the ones that produce the Choctaw Code Talkers marker, those are accepted from October 1st to November 15th of every year.
00:26:58:18 - 00:27:16:17
Speaker 2
So 2026, 2027, even if you're listening in 2028, that is probably still the date. So reach out to us. Let us know of any stories. They do have to be Texas based, but we're excited to tell more stories of Texas history and share them with the public.
00:27:16:20 - 00:27:42:12
Speaker 1
I can't thank you both enough for coming on the show today to share more about the program and about the Journey Tunnel, with making this marker come to life and all of the work that you've done to preserve and share this with the current and next generations. I want to thank you both, Alicia Costello, a historian with the Texas Historical Commission and the Historical Markers Program, and Ta'Na Alexander, spokesperson with the Choctaw Code Talkers Association.
00:27:42:14 - 00:27:56:14
Speaker 1
It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you both, and I hope that listeners take inspiration from your important and meaningful work and the impact that you're having on your communities.
00:27:56:16 - 00:28:09:16
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:28:09:18 - 00:28:10:19
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.