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Courtside Convo is Impact 89FM's podcast all about the NBA.
Welcome in to Courtside Convo. I'm your host, Tim Marshall, joined by my cohost. I don't know why I said I said that weird cohost, Martin Gilleski. We're here with another episode of Courtside Convo. It's we're in the the middle of it now, really the thick of it kinda I think we got, what, three months left until playoffs?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think yeah. Exactly. And we have just about two weeks till the trade deadline. November 5.
Speaker 2:Correct?
Speaker 1:Or or February 5. Or yeah. Yeah. We wow. We're off early.
Speaker 1:Jeez. We gotta buckle in here.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. This is like, you know you know, when you're watching your team turns it over, like, first three possessions?
Speaker 1:We're down 10 nothing right now. Time out. Early time out. This is It's 09:58 left in the first quarter, we're taking a thirty second.
Speaker 2:Early time out. Crowd's not into it. Nope. We Gotta keep moving.
Speaker 1:But also those those are the games I feel like it's not over. Like, I I think that's where the opposing team kinda gets a little into a a false sense of security.
Speaker 2:You gotta get back into
Speaker 1:it. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Alright. That happened the just quick aside, the the Pistons last night, they won I mean, the the Pelicans kept it close, but I kid you not, I think the Pelicans might have turned it over like first four or five possessions straight. It was like 12 o.
Speaker 1:There was a possession where they had all five guys in maybe a third of the court and a Durant had that windmill dunk. Do you remember that play? That was the worst defense I think I've ever seen.
Speaker 2:That was I think it was either the first or second, like, possession of the game, and I think it was off of Pelagans' turnover.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They're every year you think they might have something and they just don't. Bottom of the Western Conference right now at 10:36. That that's a fan base you just got a feel for. You thought after the 80 thing, they get Zion and it's all gonna be okay, and it's been it's just gotten worse year over year.
Speaker 2:What did you think about them? Well, we all like, this report came out that they were completely out on trading, I think, you know, Herb Herb Jones, Trey Murphy, Zion, and Derek or their their two rookies.
Speaker 1:Fears and Queen.
Speaker 2:Fears and Queen. What did you think about that?
Speaker 1:Think when you look at Trey Murphy and if you can get a top five pick for him somehow or like a really like a blue chip first round pick, say you're dealing with the team Yeah. Like Atlanta trying to get your own pick back. I I think you have to consider that. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, they should be in a position where it's like, you're not good enough to tell everyone that these players are not available, but they might just say that. And like, I know that, you know, they're not actually unavailable. Like, really, if somebody calls and is like, I don't know, six firsts, know, they'll let them have it. But yeah.
Speaker 2:Jeez. I I I don't know. I I think it's hilarious because they have like all of the good like big defensive shooting wings and everyone everyone is like, I just need one more defensive wing. This bad team's got all of them and they they're hogging them. It's annoying.
Speaker 1:They are hogging them and it still ends up where like Jordan Poole is their fourth leading scorer right now. Sadik Bay is their third leading scorer at 15 points per game.
Speaker 2:Have you seen his shooting percentages this year? Whose? Jordan Poole.
Speaker 1:No. I believe they're ugly though. My gosh. They have to be.
Speaker 2:From the field, 37%. From the field, that's He plays some some ridiculous basketball.
Speaker 1:He must he must have a year where he shoots better from three than that. Right?
Speaker 2:I mean, that's not even from three. From
Speaker 1:I'm I'm saying, like, he has to have a year where he's shooting 38% from three.
Speaker 2:Best year was last year, 37.8.
Speaker 1:And yeah. And now he's that's his field goal percentage.
Speaker 2:That was better than all the all of the Warriors year.
Speaker 1:That makes more sense though because he like, he would be chucking a couple. He'd have a couple of game where he'd be like, woah.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not like he wasn't doing that on the Wizards. I mean, hilariously, the best he the best he ever shot from the from three by far was the playoffs in '22. So That don't I
Speaker 1:don't wanna bring that up. Do not he hit one or two of those half court shots that just really demoralized you. Oh, yeah. But then being on the other end of it with Peyton Pritchard was was nice. Feels good.
Speaker 1:It feel it really feels good when it's your team. Yeah. Speaking of our teams, we they faced off on Monday. The Pistons hosted the Celtics for was it the third or fourth time this year?
Speaker 2:Fourth time. Final game this year.
Speaker 1:Final game. All three before have been pretty good games.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:And we saw another one that came down to the wire. Ultimately, Jalen Brown missed a missed a mid range jumper to close it out. One zero four, one zero three for the Pistons. And Martin, you were had much more attention on this game than I did. I was watching the national championship for most of it.
Speaker 1:I tuned in late, but you said you you got a a real good grasp of this game.
Speaker 2:I do. I I wanna get into this. So like you said, this was our last matchup for this regular season, which I think for one is gonna present definitely some conversations later as a, you know, theoretical potential Celtics Pistons series could happen. And all of the games, when we go to look back at film to sort of, you know, see what you're thinking about about those two teams, All of these games occurred before, one, the trade deadline, and two, the looming elephant in the room of Jayson Tatum's injury and his supposed comeback. And that's gonna be really interesting given both of these teams are definitely in the mix of the deadline and we have Tatum coming back.
Speaker 2:So that's my first point is that it's just weird from a, like, looking towards the playoffs perspective. There if there is a matchup, it's gonna be really hard to tell what's happening between these two teams. But for one, you gotta start off the conversation about this game with Jalen Brown who was very adamant of taking on the Cade Cunningham assignment on defense as well as, you know, basically being the whole offense for the Celtics. He took he put up 28 shots tonight. Not his best efficiency night.
Speaker 1:No. Only 11 makes.
Speaker 2:No. Only 11 makes, two of eight from the three, but he still gets 32 points. You know, he was awesome in this game, frankly. But I want to talk about the interactions around him and what that means for this team because I have sort of a theory of some something that the Pistons tend to do. If you noticed during this game, weirdly enough, Asar Thompson was not defending Jalen Brown, which you would think that would be the of course, you would have him, you know, get him on the best player.
Speaker 2:But one of the things this the Pistons have been doing, and they did this to the Clippers as well, as well as some other teams, is they will intentionally put a SAR on a secondary ball handler, not not for help side defense. Well, for that in part, but I think a big part of it is when there is a ball handler and then there's more of a scoring forward. For example, with Kawhi Leonard and James Harden. They're gonna put a SAR on Harden and leave Kawhi on the lesser defender. And I think sort of the intention is to kind of stagnate the offense, like leave the ball handling duties to, like, to the less passing and ball handling oriented player, which
Speaker 1:Do you think that's a good strategy though? Didn't Kawhi have 55?
Speaker 2:I was going to mention that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It it did not work. I think that, you know, the goal that game, you know, was kind of I think like kind of gum up the offense by preventing Harden from doing much like make him get off ball. Of course, I I don't know, Kawhi is just he's Kawhi. The Terminator. Sometimes it doesn't work.
Speaker 2:I just thought like from like a, you know, the example of like scoring forward versus passing point guard.
Speaker 1:It's definitely fair. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it also allowed them to switch a lot of the matchups for Brown because you had Kade on you had Kade on Derrick White, you had often either Javonte Green or Tobias Harris on Jaylen Brown, and then you would have Asar on Pritchard. And they loved to run pick and roll, high pick and roll with Brown and White and Pritchard with, I mean, any one of those three as the ball handler. And it felt like the Pistons being really adamant about switching all of those actions no matter what made it significantly more difficult for the Celtics to get going. And I do think the whole idea of sort of letting Jaylen Brown, like Be the score. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Go get buckets and we're gonna like, the whole rest of the team is gonna do nothing. Like, you look down the roster here, Derrick White, one of 11. Peyton Pritchard only got up eight shots in this game, was five of eight, but only got up eight shots. Anthony Simons, not his best game either, four of 11 from the field. So you noticed all the backcourt players in this game kind of struggling.
Speaker 2:And I think a secondary effect of this was that I think Jalen Brown was exhausted by the end. Taking on Kade all day plus getting up 28 shots. If you noticed, he only missed two free throws in this game. As a Celtics fan, I'm sure you you've had the it's it's a it's a pain of Celtics fan that he tends to
Speaker 1:It's my biggest pet peeve is that he's an inefficient free throw shooter, especially in like close games and it's just like, oh, he missed both. Great.
Speaker 2:And you know when the free throws he wore that he missed, like, I mean, right near the end, like last three minutes. Yep. And he took 10 free throw attempts this game. He missed two of them.
Speaker 1:And it was those two.
Speaker 2:It was both two.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then as well, he had a quote after the game. He said that he felt good about that game winning shot that he put up. He felt good about it. He said that it was a great shot and that was what he wanted. But he said that he didn't feel like his legs were under him, which I think might have been a sign of it can be a bit much to take on Kade and get up 28 shots.
Speaker 1:And that's kinda the last two years they've they've been knocked out of the playoffs, he's been a big reason why. It's because he's been not healthy, and he's been playing through an injury last year with the meniscus, and then in '23 with the wrist, and then a couple other things. Like, I love that he's going all out in these games, and he's trying to guard Kane, and he's trying to prove a point that, obviously, he's an all star all star starter.
Speaker 2:It's baller. Like, I mean, it's it's baller to
Speaker 1:do that. And he's in the MVP conversation currently, but I think at a point you do have to remember it's January. And when you're a guy who's proven to I wouldn't say break down, but there's been a few times where I think there's been three playoff runs because in '21, he also wasn't healthy. So there's been three times now in ten years that you haven't been able to stay healthy throughout the playoffs. And obviously, it's a problem throughout the league.
Speaker 1:But when you're a guy specifically that's kinda been like that, it is something to really pay attention to. And obviously, that's where Tatum coming back would help. Yeah. And that's where it's is he gonna give up the rope a little bit? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that has to be the biggest question right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and that was where to me the the ceiling of this team kind of lied because as as good of a scorer as he is, he he kind of lacks kind of like, if you wanna call it feel or just kind of, you know, game processing, whatever verbiage you wanna put on it. He isn't the best at passing. I mean, he he is a perfectly like workable passer, but it can get a little rough.
Speaker 1:Yeah. For how much he had the ball in this game, he only had two assists.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And to to get into the flow of this, so at the half, Detroit had, I believe it was a eight point lead going to halftime. And that was, I think, mostly because of those factors. I mean, the Celtics actually shot really well from three the first half and significantly worse the second. So they were shooting really well off the bat in this game.
Speaker 2:They had a great first quarter, but Detroit really rallied in the second quarter with their defense. And the adjustments to kind of counter what I was talking about with, you know, Detroit saying we're gonna switch everything with these guard to guard or guard to forward pick and rolls. Joe Mazula comes out of the locker room and says, we're we are hammering on the pick and pop to come out in the third quarter. Luca Garza, fantastic. He hit, I think, two threes almost in a row in just a few short possessions as well as a few others in in other parts of the game.
Speaker 2:He was very good this game. Two of looks like let me find his he was two of five from three, but the two that he hit were both on pick and pop possessions where one thing that Detroit does that I think has been a concern through many games, you know, when we played the Bulls or others is we tend to just straight up double off pick and pops and it leaves a guy wide open. And the Celtics are definitely going to be looking that at that going forwards. That was something that they had great success with. And although they weren't able to use that to carry all the way, they had awesome success doing that.
Speaker 2:I also think that it's interesting that the Celtics ended up outscoring the Pistons in both quarters in the second half. They were the better team in the second half, but that eight point Detroit lead was just barely Just barely enough.
Speaker 1:I mean, the Celtics won the first quarter too. Was just the 11 swing in the second that really killed it for Boston. One thing I do wanna talk about here is the trade deadline, like we said, almost one or two weeks away. And the whole rumor of the off season or throughout the season has been, oh, the Celtics have to trade for center. They have to trade for center.
Speaker 1:But with the development of Luka Garza and, you know, just kind of what Cade has been able to do, he's been a real surprise. Right now, I'm sitting in a spot where I don't think the Celtics do need to make a move for a center. If we look at specifically what came in for the Pacers last year, Who were their centers that really did anything besides Myles Turner who even him, like, they there was a lot of those minutes that actually they weren't as bad as you thought if it was from Thomas Bryant or who who else down the line here that was getting minutes for them at center. Like they would play the small ball with Obi Toppin and like I think there's things that they can do.
Speaker 2:I think the difference there is that they are a running team and it makes a lot of sense for them to play smaller centers and the Celtics are the exact opposite of a running team. And it's not a bad thing. They do well with it, but they straight up do not run. I also think, you know, also Miles Turner is a lot better than Nimios Keda. No no offense to Keda.
Speaker 2:He's been awesome. I I do find this interesting though because this is kind of what a lot of people were looking at is it seems like a center is kind of the maybe not missing piece because clearly they've been able to work and I mean, this is for the mostly the defensive rebounding Mhmm. And rim protection maybe. But man, Derrick White does a lot for you with offensive rebounding. He was spectacular on the boards in this game.
Speaker 2:Nine rebounds for him and five offensive rebounds. He was killing Pistons off of Celtics missed threes as he always does. But you don't find that they don't need any help on the defensive glass at all? Any extra rim protection?
Speaker 1:I think it's a a weakness, but I rather retain your strengths with the shooting. I I wouldn't trade I think Simons has been the chip that everyone's looked at. I think you have to keep him. He's he's won games for you this season. If you look at the game in Miami just a week ago, he had 41 points, and that was a game where they were dead in the water.
Speaker 1:They were down double digits for 75% of the game, and then he just went on a tear to get them back into it. And if you have Simons, Pritchard, White, Hauser is a guy who can, obviously, he's more of a forward, but those are four guys right there that can catch fire at any time. And that's that's how the Celtics win games. It's not it's not with their defensive rebounding. It's with their shooting.
Speaker 2:So you kinda look at it like, you know, they they don't have the players that you'd wanna give up or if like any center that's in the range that they would look to trade for would have weaknesses that would outweigh the strengths. I'm Yeah. Like Taking I'm not away the character that
Speaker 1:I'm Exactly. I'm out on like the Zubach deal now. I don't I don't think that's something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That that's one not one
Speaker 1:of He was always far fetched too, I believe. I like I first I thought, oh, it would look good for a starting five. But when it comes down to the depth and the shooting, I think you just lose a little too much there.
Speaker 2:What about Jaren Jackson Junior?
Speaker 1:It was reported No.
Speaker 2:That they had you know, you're you're
Speaker 1:He's not not helping on the rebounding side. Tatum's a better rebounding. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What what am I talking about?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And he's a worse shooter. Like, if you put him in the four, he's a worse shooter.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking because it was reported.
Speaker 1:No. I I understand it was.
Speaker 2:So I mean, you know, another weird
Speaker 1:Could I just want to make one last point on that? Yeah. Is with having Tatum and Brown, that's a $100,000,000 a year. And with what we're seeing with these big cores that the starting fives making $200,000,000 per year.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I just don't think adding another Max guy would be helpful.
Speaker 2:I saw one person. This is actually from Jason Timf. He suggested I I thought this was a like, a ridiculous suggestion, but kinda makes sense. This is a small addition for the Celtics. What do you think about Jalen Smith of the Chicago Bulls?
Speaker 1:The Rex Bags guy?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Out of Maryland? I've always liked him. If he's available for, like, you wanna get like two seconds? Like what what's the deal? So that this is the
Speaker 2:the idea is that really small salary. You can obviously get him with some of the smaller players in the roster. You're not gonna give up one of those bigger salaries like Simon's what you said. He also takes four three three point attempts a game and he shoots a respectable 35%. And he is sort of a smaller center which I think has seemingly always kind of worked with this team.
Speaker 2:It's I mean, they're kind of doing it right now. They are doing it right now. So it might kind of fit with the character and like you said, you're still able to retain that shooting quality that you like. It's an interesting thought, especially for the presumably very low price of
Speaker 1:him. Yeah. And I I trust what whatever Brad Stevens is gonna do. I think he's earned that trust over the past couple of years, and he's done it in deals that you would never think, like the Drew Holiday deal for Simons. Like, you were nobody was going in the offseason with that rumor like, oh, this is how they'll do it.
Speaker 1:Even the Porzingis thing to Atlanta, like, it was more of a salary dump that wasn't as expected. I think a lot of people thought they were gonna get more for him. Yeah. But it's it's about just getting these deals that nobody really expects. It like,
Speaker 2:you've He's he's really awesome.
Speaker 1:And the Derek like, Derek White trade, nobody was like, oh, let's just go get Derek White. So I feel like those are never the ones that he truly goes after. The guy I really want, I want a reunion with Rob Williams, the Time Lord. Oh. Bring him back home.
Speaker 1:He was part of the deal originally to acquire Drew Holiday. He was was kind of the emotional part where you really didn't wanna see him go just because what he did for them, especially in 2022 on that run. But He has only played one game this year. Was it No. He's only started one game.
Speaker 1:He's played 30 Oh, me. He's Ev Klingen. So like He's
Speaker 2:in the wrong yeah. He's played 30 games, but I I don't think you trust him. I I guess
Speaker 1:His injury risk is tough, but if you have Kaden out being that starter guy, those those are two guys that would play very similar to each other where they are at the rim guys, rim protectors. You got you do fill in that role pretty nicely.
Speaker 2:I think that kind of configuration work would work really well for the Celtics team, like saying, we are going to have two non shooters on the roster and we're gonna kind of go for this archetype we like, which is the really strong, more switchable center, but like somebody who's on like a slightly lower contract like them, it really works. I wanted to move on for just like a few last notes I had in the game. A big thing and this kind of plays into the center thing we're talking about. One of the factors in this game was several players being in foul trouble. Jaylen Brown ended up ended up not being in foul trouble, although it looked early on like he might.
Speaker 2:But you had four fouls on Keita and Hauser, both of whom played under thirty minutes. You know, they are starters. I and there were points where you were definitely missing Keita out there that you had to reach all the way down to the bench for some Xavier Tillman minutes. And I felt like that was an issue that it's not just the defensive rebounding that you're that worried about it, but there's other ways that specifically in a matchup against Detroit where what they do is they're gonna get fouled a lot because they're gonna hammer you in the paint.
Speaker 1:That that's the thing. I think that's just two teams that are really physical. And in a regular season game, they're not gonna let as much go. And I think the refs they probably had understanding that it would be a physical game but not to this level.
Speaker 2:It always so because in the beginning, they tried to like they were like, we're gonna call it tight.
Speaker 1:We're gonna
Speaker 2:reel it in. Exactly. Oh my god. No. Neither team let up.
Speaker 1:And that's the thing where if we do see this matchup in May, it will be with like playoff foul calling. It'll be there'll be it'll be less of an issue. I think it definitely is something to look out for though, and that's where the depth comes in.
Speaker 2:But Yeah.
Speaker 1:I I would not be willing to get rid of one of the guards to kind of
Speaker 2:Very fair.
Speaker 1:Supplement that big man depth.
Speaker 2:And one last note, you have to touch on Kade for this game, more on the Pistons. Really weird game for him, not the best game. Four of 17 from the field. Pretty nasty shooting by Kade. He has not been good.
Speaker 2:He had a wrist contusion that I think a lot of fans kinda thought was just a smaller thing, but he came back from that after being out for a game and his past few games have been really nasty shooting. So, I mean, part of it was the Celtics were playing great defenses on him. Jalen Brown was awesome on him, but it's not as if he wasn't getting the spots he usually does. And I think the fact that his past three games have been equally poor shooting against four teams, it's not something I'm really concerned about. But for this game, it was it added a really strange mix, especially when he, on the other side of things, managed to do 14 assists
Speaker 1:Zero turnovers. Yeah. That's the first thing that popped up for me when I saw it. And if he can have those games where he is just the pass first guy, I that's that's a good thing for the Pistons because you're not gonna go throughout a playoff run and have him be thirty, ten, and 10 on Yeah. Fifty, forty, 90 every game.
Speaker 1:Like there's gonna be games where it's just not going well for him, but he can find a way to get other guys involved and make sure they still find a way to win.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's really weird. I it's like pretty often that I come away from games thinking like, wow, you know you know, that wasn't ideal but that was the best three of 11 game I've ever seen, you know, like.
Speaker 1:Well, he's just asked to do so much and sometimes it's not all gonna go
Speaker 2:Yeah. Perfect. And I thought one of the, you know, the other thing, he was awesome on defense in this game. He was incredible. Two blocks at the rim coming over from the weak side as well as a steal.
Speaker 2:And just generally, I thought he was tenacious on on Brown. He had a few good possessions on him. But without his scoring, the Pistons were very, very lucky to have a huge Tobias Harris game, 25 points, 11 of 20, and and Duncan Robinson hit five threes as well. You know, a good Jalen Durran game for 18 points and nine rebounds. So you had the collective stuff, but this is just such an interesting matchup.
Speaker 2:Two teams with such distinctly different styles. You know, we I forgot we didn't even mention. The Celtics turned the ball over quite a lot. They lost the turnover battle and that's another one that is, like, vitally important to the Piston strategy. And it's it's the same thing with a lot of these teams, like Detroit is a very good offensive rebounding team but not as good on defensive rebounding.
Speaker 2:The Celtics are the same way. So on both sides of the court, they pull against each other and then the Celtics are the least turnover prone team in league. They're excellent at keeping care taking care of the ball. The Pistons force some of the most turnovers in the league and rely a lot on fast break points for their for their offense, which they were really successful with in this game in the fast break. So this is such an interesting matchup.
Speaker 2:I really hope we get to see a playoff series between these
Speaker 1:two teams. That was gonna be my final question before we moved on was, do you think we see this in the Eastern Conference Finals? Because I don't I don't think the Celtics will follow the four and I don't think Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll see it.
Speaker 1:It'll be either it it'll have to be a Conference Finals.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, listen, if I'm playing any Conference Finals series, I'm very happy. So I mean, like, I'm not complaining, but I wanna see it because, oh, we had four games. All four were some of the best games of the year. I think six or seven game series would be awesome but, you know, just from a playing perspective, that would terrify me, of course, you know, any any that's that's big stakes and stuff.
Speaker 2:And it's a historic rivalry. So we I hope we get to see it, frankly. That would be awesome.
Speaker 1:And they have all the Bad Boys days. They file into the game with those clips just kind of reminiscing. All my, like, dads and uncles will be like, oh, yeah. Remember these games, Bad Boy.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. You get like, they'll, you know, you you'll definitely have somebody who's like, oh, you know, I hated Isaiah. Yeah. I hated Isaiah. Or like, you know, they're they're all over that.
Speaker 2:I I love talking to, you know, anytime you talk to older fans around like at the arena or whatever, they're like, I've been a fan since Bob Lanier. Like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Alright. Let let's move on to do do we wanna talk the negative side of the Eastern Conference right now? What's going on with New York for a little bit?
Speaker 2:Let's start with the negative.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So they are three and eight in their last 11. They they did bounce back with a a 120 to 66 win over Brooklyn last night. Man, just pour one out for Brooklyn. Like Yeah.
Speaker 1:This isn't even a Knicks team that's playing well right now. They're they're kinda down in the dumps, they still show up to MSG and just put an absolute beating on Brooklyn. 66 points the least amount we've seen this year?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I actually saw this earlier. The lowest amount of points scored in a game since 2016. Wow. Like, it's that bad.
Speaker 2:And and the the fact that it's the lowest since 2016 and the offense is up like like 10% since then, like, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:It's a really bad showing for the Brooklyn faithful. But I mean, with what they wanna do, they wanna tank. But alright. Let let's move on to the Knicks here. We we talked about them last week how they had a kind of an embarrassing loss to the Kings.
Speaker 1:Since then, they've they lost three more games in a row before last night's win. And the one I I really wanna point out was the Dallas game at Madison Square Garden, National TV game.
Speaker 2:That was the one that I think got everyone, like, really
Speaker 1:Like, was like, that was where going on. Because this Dallas team, they're not really good offensively, and they put up a 44 they put up a let's see. Let's do some quick math here. 75 points in the first half. Woah.
Speaker 1:Woah. Just blowing apart this this Knicks defense that has not been good, and obviously, the coaching change going from a defensive minded head coach to an offensive minded head coach, We've seen it slip, especially with Brunson and Cat who have been they've really been picked apart here where the the book on them is out. And Yeah. You can just get them in the pick and roll, and good things will happen for your offense.
Speaker 2:It was bad. I had that game on and I remember I turned the game on. I was watching. I was like, oh, Mavericks are up early. Weird.
Speaker 2:And then I was, you know, I went to go make some food. I sat down. I looked up and they're up like 20 and it's like the first half and I'm like, I what? Like, I was kinda waiting like, you know, surely the Knicks will get back in this. Like, they gotta get back in this game.
Speaker 2:You know, it's the Mavericks. Like and it just never happened. Shout out MSU alum Max Christie. Oh, I I got actually, I don't know if he's an alum. I don't
Speaker 1:He was here for a year. He was here for nine months.
Speaker 2:But he was awesome in that game, eight of 10 and from the from the three point line, but very few Knicks were. Jalen Brunson got up a lot of shots, 24 shots, only made nine of them for 22 points. Mikhail Bridges only seven points, OG Anandobi only nine, Carl Towns 22 points and okay showing from him. But then again, you look, Towns had five turnovers. The starting lineup for the Knicks combined for 13 turnovers just from their starters.
Speaker 2:17 total. It was a brutal game for them. It felt like whenever the Mavs would get a steal or a block or just run off of a rebound, they would get out and you're like, where are the Knicks at? They're all back there. No one's no one's running after them.
Speaker 2:And I just it's it was a bad effort night.
Speaker 1:And this is kind of the thing when we were just talking about Cade. When Brunson doesn't have his fastball, it's tougher for him to affect the game because he's not having those games where it's ten, eleven, 14 assists, and zero turnovers. The the Dallas game, he only he had six assists, but when you're shooting 3725% from three, it's just it's gonna be hard to win a game when you're when you have to be involved so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And those 15 missed shots mean even more when if you watched every single one of those missed shots was grab the rebound, they're gone, there's a bucket on the other end. It felt like each one was just furthering the deficit. And that was the last loss in a four game streak starting with the Kings game. And it's funny, I was saying like, do we need to do another, you know, next segment like we just talked about how it was getting a little rough and yet it got rougher.
Speaker 2:They lost to the Warriors who were, you know, have just they actually at the time they were playing well but it's not really a incredibly, you know, like, you know, not exactly the juggernaut the Knicks are supposed to be talent wise. And then a loss to the Suns who you can start to see the pattern here. The Suns, scrappy, athletic, they run, they shoot a lot of threes, and you just start to see the weaknesses pop up.
Speaker 1:One of the things I do wanna point out, and I wonder if this is why we've seen a a slump from them. This month, Jalen Brunson is averaging four free throws per game. Last year, he was at seven. The month before, was 6.6, 5.7, eight in October. Like, I I think so he was averaging 31 points per game in October when he was at eight.
Speaker 1:And now it's at four, he's at 22 points per game.
Speaker 2:I mean, that could be part of it.
Speaker 1:And usually do see officiating where the NBA will kind of put out memos throughout the year to, hey, we're gonna guard this. We're gonna call this stuff kinda differently. Yeah. And I I think that's something to really look out for. He hasn't had a game over five free throws since January 3.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna say, I think that this is more of a symptom than a disease because generally, I think Brunson has been one of the more stable players throughout this slump. I I think overall, he has been, you know, one of the better ones. Like like as far as Mikkel and OG and Kat were really very disappointing. I I think it was he was, if anything, one of the stabilizers. But I would look to me when I try to point out what the slump was, you had a sort of intersecting time where you had Josh Hart out for a little bit.
Speaker 2:He is now back, but he was out for a while, then on a minutes restriction. You also had an underrated player being out, Landry Shammit, not playing in quite a few games. I believe he is yet to be back if I yeah. He has not played back yet. And he, I think, is an underrated portion of what makes their team good.
Speaker 2:Losing one more shooter and one more processor on the court is bad. You've also to compound on that, Jordan Clarkson has started to lose minutes. They have not been playing Jordan Clarkson nearly as much recently.
Speaker 1:There's been growing frustrations with him, and I wouldn't be I wouldn't be shocked if he gets moved at the deadline. Him and Yabasele are two guys that they brought in this offseason, and this was, oh, we're gonna have depth now. We're not gonna be playing six guys a night. And it's kind of reverted back to that. Obviously, they're having guys play more, but they're not producing like they were earlier in the season.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that the Clarkston thing, like you said, growing frustrations. I believe, personally, it has a lot to do with the the passing on this team. There just isn't an like a true elite passer on the roster. And that is one of the weaknesses that, I mean, is like immediately you can point that out immediately.
Speaker 2:Like, there is no, like, s tier processor on the roster. And when you have a player like Clarkston who is the type of guy who gets up a lot of shots, the type of guy who is frankly just kind of a microwave scorer.
Speaker 1:He's kinda like a Carys Lavert where like you're you're bringing him in to score, but you're not really bringing him in. It it's tough when you're asking him to run the offense because it's Yeah. He he is the only offense Yeah. When he's on the court.
Speaker 2:That's and that's where I think, like, if the rest of the roster had more players who were like, I'm going to grease the offense and keep things moving and I'm going to make sure you get yours while not needing your ball handling, then maybe he fits better on a team like that. I just don't know if fit here.
Speaker 1:Like, what happened to the McCall Bridges? No. Like, he was the number one option for a couple years. Obviously, it didn't work that well in Yeah. Brooklyn, but he has the experience running the offense and kinda doing that.
Speaker 1:And I I don't think they they defer to him enough in those non Brunson minutes or even when Brunson's on the court, trying to get him easier off ball looks.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that part of the reason for that is even though he is a pretty good ball handler and they do have him take it up the court, he will often take it up the court and not initiate.
Speaker 1:And like, he's bring it to pieces.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Literally just the one, like, handling the ball up the court. I just think he kind of prefers offense, like, being a movement guy and that was part of what that's one of the big things that that Brown wants to like emphasize. So I think that was kind of the goal with him to, you know, to use that since that's what they want him doing but it straight up just doesn't seem to be working. Just to to point out this, like I was saying, against the Mavs, Jordan Clarkson, two minutes in that game.
Speaker 2:That's it. Like they they just didn't play him. He played two minutes in the first and or rather, I mean, one minute in the first and then basically just didn't play after that. So, like, that's not a good sign. You traded for that guy.
Speaker 2:You wanted him. Like, you you exchanged assets for him and it was supposed to be a big addition but did not work at all. So you gotta be wondering what they're looking for, but they're a high payroll team. It's gonna be difficult to make trades. But I do think that if you're trying to trade anyone, Jordan Clarkson and Yabu Saleh are kind of guys in the right tier to
Speaker 1:To move to try to
Speaker 2:make the right move.
Speaker 1:Get some some guys that maybe aren't fitting in other other spots. Is there anything else you have on this next team before we kinda keep moving here?
Speaker 2:One last thing. I just wanted to give credit to Miles McBride who is having a career year. So it's funny that he he's having the best year of his career. He's been just awesome this year. He is a if any if there is a bright spot, that would be him.
Speaker 2:He's been he's been awesome.
Speaker 1:Alright. Yeah. I I've always liked him. I feel like he's been kind of a scary he's been a scary guy coming off the bench, but it's just there's not a lot there anywhere else. Tyler Kolik hasn't been the answer.
Speaker 1:I think Knicks fans thought he could be something for a little bit, but, yeah, Shammit still out. Mitchell Robinson's been in and out of lineups here. It it's gonna be a team that they're right now, they're the three seed, and they are twenty six and eighteen. And this is the all in
Speaker 2:year, and it just hasn't been all in. That's the worst thing about it is that this isn't like this is the year. There's no there's no like other year that's coming. There's no big move that's coming. They are pretty much they are very inflexible team especially with you know, Kat is a enormous contract.
Speaker 2:I know that there have been talks with several teams about him. And what do you do when this is supposed to be, you know, maybe the biggest year in the past how many years of Knicks history? Like All twenty? Twenty five?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Even since that like Ewing team, like or the team that made it without Ewing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Since, you know, since those last Ewing, I guess Ewing era years Yeah. Whatever you wanna diagnose that as.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I feel like this team's more culturally culturally relevant right now from for New York. Like everyone's like,
Speaker 2:oh, they gotta they gotta go. Well, let's cleanse our palates here. We wanted to move on to some positive in the East.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I that's that's what the wait. Do you wanna talk Charlotte? Do you wanna talk Cleveland right now? Or Philly Philly Philly.
Speaker 1:My bad. My bad. No. You're good. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Philadelphia, '23 and '19. Kind of a shocker here. I think everyone thought they would this would be a regression year with how we saw Embiid and Georgia look last year, but Maxey's really pulled it together. He's an all star starter at 30 points per game, and Vijay Edgecombs looked really good. And even Embiid.
Speaker 1:Embiid might be averaging the quietest 24 points in NBA history.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, Embiid's Embiid's 24 points are especially quiet when it's just like give it to him face up, stare the guy down, do like two pump fakes, drain the drain the jumper. That's it. That's all you do.
Speaker 1:And then Paul George, 15 points per game. Obviously, he's not he's not at his peak that we've seen him at, but I I think this it's more of a natural thing with him where he's just kinda getting older and he's filling in at a role where he's he's shooting 37% from three. He's doing things well, but it's just it's not what the contract he signed is kind of the production isn't matching that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's sad because frankly, he's been really good. I think it makes a lot of sense that Paul George is the type of star player who when transitioning to a smaller role, all of a sudden, you're like, wow. Like, this guy just when when he wants to be a role player, like, wow, does it work? Because he has physical tools, he can switch, he can shoot, and he can handle the ball.
Speaker 2:Like, no, he's not the score that you want him to be like you paid him to be. But I've really liked his role And they currently sit. They are at in the sixth spot. So they're out of the play in tournament. They are nine games back of the Pistons, but the thing is they are tied with the Magic in the seventh spot.
Speaker 2:I think at the moment, they have the tiebreak over the Magic. But for them, this is a really interesting spot of the year because if you're able to really lock at this spot maybe create separation on the Magic or frankly, they're only half a game back of the Cavs. You could overtake the Cavs. There's no reason you can't. This is gonna be a spot where the next few games will really determine a lot because I'm sure they wanna stay out of the play in tournament and it's gonna be big for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is a spot where I'm just gonna call them out right now. I'm fraud checking Toronto. I don't think they finish in the top six. I think they fall back into the plan because they have horses behind them.
Speaker 1:They have the Cavs, the Sixers, and Orlando, all three teams that have been in that top four with certain guys before. Right now, all those from four to eight or even four to or four to seven is all within two games of each other, and the Knicks are tied in that spot too. I I think we see Cleveland keep climbing. I think we see Philly keep climbing, and I think Orlando is gonna kinda find its groove here too. And that leaves an odd team out, and I think that's gonna be Toronto.
Speaker 2:I disagree with that. We won't dwell on it. I will say Raptors six and four in their last 10, Cavs six and four, both the Sixers and the Magic are five and five in their last 10. So if they are horses, they aren't galloping yet.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying, like, they can't, like Yeah. Yeah. It's there.
Speaker 2:I'm with the Raptors. I'm a Raptor. I'm I'm I'm with them.
Speaker 1:I'm anti Raptors. I don't like the Raptors.
Speaker 2:It's my Canadian brothers.
Speaker 1:And they're gonna they're gonna miss they're gonna be the seventh seed.
Speaker 2:I wanted to talk about one of the kind of dilemmas facing them and the kind of golden handcuffs that are Joel Embiid because beyond his contract with his play, the most distinct thing when you look at this team and you watch them is there are like two different teams and it's one when Embiid's on the court and it's one when Embiid's not on the court. Their pace is wildly different with the speed they play with their backcourt without Joel Embiid versus the very slow take it up face up game that Embiid plays with. It's a confusing spot for them because it's just a lot harder to create a sort of cohesive team identity that exists for the full forty eight minutes when you don't have a cohesive roster identity.
Speaker 1:Is there any amount of production Embiid could have where he would become a movable asset?
Speaker 2:I like, for me, no. For maybe some GM, maybe yes. I I don't know. I guess when you say movable, do you mean like a team that's trying to be good wants him or a team that is trying be bad and be willing to accept it?
Speaker 1:Willing to take him on.
Speaker 2:I mean, later in his contract, yeah. Like, right now, there is, I think, three seasons after this one, if I'm correct, which is Four. My god. So bad. It's really bad.
Speaker 1:Because I think it only kicks in this I think this is the first year. Our three year extension. I I don't know, but it's it's not a good deal.
Speaker 2:He is under he has a player option in 2829. You you think he'll be taking that?
Speaker 1:For 67,000,000, I think he'll take it.
Speaker 2:You know, maybe he can get more on the free
Speaker 1:Yeah. So three, he'll be after this and then he'll be 35 unrestricted free agent. He's gonna make a lot of money in his career for not playing a lot of games.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. So we have three years left. Oh my gosh. That's just so like, do you think like maybe like in the middle of next season, like surely a team could be like, you know, maybe we can take on half a year and then one more year. Like, maybe in that sort of scenario, actually, no, that would be half a year and then two more years.
Speaker 2:Oh, jeez. Like, I don't know. They might just have to to, you know, just kind of gut this one out. Like, I don't know what they do with it.
Speaker 1:He's gonna make almost a half $1,000,000,000 over the course of his career.
Speaker 2:Jeez. And and Paul George's his contract is not as long, but almost as long. He's he has a actually not an option, but he is under contract till twenty twenty seven, twenty eight.
Speaker 1:How well do you think he would have to play to become anything movable?
Speaker 2:He's more tradable. The contract Just because
Speaker 1:he's can play more of a role?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean Even though the contract does That's the thing is I really don't think that his defense has suffered in the way you think it might, like his offense has.
Speaker 1:He's he's not the guy that can go out and take on the first he's he's in between the level of he's not a lockdown defender, but he's also not a target. He's just kinda in in between.
Speaker 2:I I think if any even at the moment, I still think he's probably a positive. And I just with his instincts, his length, he's kind of like in a Mikhail situation where it's like, he was once like a incredible wing defender, now just sort of like a little off athleticism. But when you look like, Joel Embiid is such a identity shift for this roster. And this is like, the same reason that another team might wanna might not want to take him on is the same reason that I said they're struggling with this identity crisis is when he's on the floor, he inherently changes how you play. Not just offensively, but just his, like, slowness defensively.
Speaker 2:And Paul George doesn't have quite as many of those, like, play style constrictions that that he does.
Speaker 1:Do you think there's anything this team can do at the deadline to kind of buff up their team and solidify that top six? I I'm gonna put one out there, and you can probably shut it down because I I don't think it's a smart move. It could be, but you're kinda selling low on this guy. Jared McCain. He's played 33 games this season.
Speaker 1:He's averaging six points per game after what most of us thought would be a he for the 23 games he played last year, he was rookie of the year.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And at some point, I do think that they're gonna have to take a look at this backcourt and get rid of somebody with Vijay Edgecombe, Tyrese Maxey, Quentin Grimes, and Kelly or Kelly Ubry, and Jared McCain. Like, you just can't stand having all of them. I mean, you one of them has to be in some way, like, not on the team, I would say, because all these guys have proven they have enough potential to, like, really give in a higher role. And Jared McCain currently sitting at the fourth as the fourth guard in this roster just isn't gonna give him the chance.
Speaker 2:It just feels like beyond whether or not he's useful enough to you, like, this is a guy who has way more worth on another team than he does for you. But when it comes to moving him, what kind of player are you looking for to get him? Like, I'm I'm curious what you think.
Speaker 1:This is just off topic, but what I think we should do next week, one one trade for each team. We we grind the the trade machine this weekend and and figure out a a trade for each team.
Speaker 2:I can do that. I mean, frankly, it's Put
Speaker 1:our GM hats on.
Speaker 2:It's it's kind of a honestly, you know, okay. I'm getting too meta with it. It's kind of like, I I don't not every team needs to make a trade, you know, you gotta force it sometimes, but it is also really fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Moving to I feel like everyone wants to be that's why there's fantasy sports. Right? Because everyone wants to be a GM of their own team and see how it would work out.
Speaker 2:So can we can be even more podcasters. We can we can all make a trade for every team. And then after that, we'll draft which ones we think are the best.
Speaker 1:We'll draft them and do every every sports podcast. And then we'll put them into tiers.
Speaker 2:We'll tier list them and draft them, and then I will I will rank your drafting until you
Speaker 1:have Blind a blind rating. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Jeez.
Speaker 2:Well well Every podcast in 2025.
Speaker 1:What yeah. That that that's a good bit right there. I I I like that.
Speaker 2:Moving on from that. Yeah. What kind of player would you be looking for to trade to trade excuse me. What's his name? Jared McCain.
Speaker 1:What kind of player? With this team right now, they're they're kinda like a top 15 offense tops. I I gotta look at the I wanna look at their efficiencies to be sure, but they're like they're not great at either, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2:I think they're a better offensive team than they are a defensive team.
Speaker 1:I agree. So in then it comes to do you wanna become a better offensive team and kind of maintain that 15 mark on defense or whatever they're at. I I still can't find it. But
Speaker 2:I think the other thing with the trade, like, or like any theoretical trade, is that they they're kind of, like, they don't know what they're doing. As in, they're clearly not in all in contention mode. You wanna look in the long term, but you kinda can't because of these contracts. So before even, like, thinking about, like, what kind of player works best on a roster would benefit our roster the most, you have to then think, like, okay, do we wanna, like, get a young guy who can maybe help us when, like, Edgecombe and Maxey are, like, the guys in
Speaker 1:this team? I think you do have to start building for that core and move on from the George Embiid stuff. But right now, if I were to tell you the the seventy sixers are seventh on defensive rating.
Speaker 2:Oh, what? I'm curious. Where are you finding this?
Speaker 1:On NBA's website. They're not inside the top 10 on offense. I gotta scroll down to see where they are. Wow. They're fifteenth on offense, tenth on defense.
Speaker 1:Or seventh on defense. Excuse me.
Speaker 2:For a
Speaker 1:Oh, that is wrong. I I've I've been
Speaker 2:Basketball reference I've been has them basketball reference has them as the sixteenth ranked offense and the twelfth ranked defense, which to be honest shocks me that they're better defense than offense.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It says seventh here, but I that's that's just incorrect. The NBA website is very finicky.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be annoying. But
Speaker 1:Sorry about that. I was running misinformation.
Speaker 2:If I'm looking for any players, they are clearly weak on the wings. They are a team that needs more and I mean bigger wings as well. You're kinda looking for a player in the range from, like, six six foot seven to six foot ten ish. It's kinda hard to see because if you're trading a young guy like Jared McCain, the team that wants Jared McCain is kind of looking for upside. You know, they're looking for, like, who's a guy who can really work out for us?
Speaker 2:Like, maybe the Bucks are looking for this type of guy. Maybe the Warriors are. The Grizzlies might be those type of teams who can like take a swing on that and say, we're not we're not looking at the season as crucial, maybe we can take a swing. Or on the other side, they're looking at the season as really crucial and they're kind of betting on that upside. That's when where it's hard to find like what kind of player would you even looking for him.
Speaker 2:Would you want picks instead and just salary? I can see them just wanting picks instead of a player. It's tough.
Speaker 1:Do you want me to give you a little sneak peek into next week? Sure. Into what into what one of the trades I will be making. Go for it. I don't know how it'll work money wise, but Jared McCain a package centered around Jared McCain for PJ Washington.
Speaker 1:Interesting. It gets Dallas Younger, do connection with Cooper Flagg. Obviously, were a year apart, but still a little something there. Gives them more shooting. McCain gets to learn under Klay Thompson for a year.
Speaker 1:I I think that's a thing that both sides would agree on. They made a trade last year. They made that god awful Quentin Rimes trade for Cody Martin.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Oh, jeez. That was an awful trade.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:He he's barely played either.
Speaker 1:But so they have there there's like a little rapport there between the GMs. Or actually, no, Nico's gone. Never mind. Never mind. False alarm.
Speaker 2:I don't I don't I think the thing is for that, they would have to attach picks to McCain and maybe salary.
Speaker 1:It would definitely have to be salary because they they're about 12,000,000 off.
Speaker 2:I think that wait. Are are you talking about you're talking about PJ Washington. Yeah. I feel like PJ Washington could definitely net you more than Jared McCain.
Speaker 1:That that's what I'm saying. No. I'm I'm saying the same thing.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. I thought you were
Speaker 1:saying You're saying Washington is more valuable than McCain. We're putting that out there. Yes. Okay. But I'm just saying, I think that's if you're looking for because I hope I I kinda hope Dallas pivots here.
Speaker 1:They know what they have in Cooper. He's been really good. I think you do keep Kyrie just because you need a little bit of take the scoring load off and I guess we're not gonna be able to trade AD at this point.
Speaker 2:No. I I don't know what's happening with him. I mean, I know there was Hawks interest. There was like a few other teams that kind of were hinted, but right now, it doesn't look like there's big motion in either way. And AD has denied it.
Speaker 2:So it's it's tough to know what's happening.
Speaker 1:AD for us. I I I'm I'm in the trade mine too early. I I can't be I can't be doing I gotta save these. I gotta keep these in the holster for next week. Alright.
Speaker 1:Speaking of Cooper Flagg, do you wanna move on? Is there anything else you need on Philly?
Speaker 2:No. That is all I have on Philly.
Speaker 1:Alright. So we haven't done a lot of debate yet this season on the rookie of the year case. ESPN published an article today why they don't have Cooper Flagg as their number one choice right now for rookie of the year. And they have Conk Nipple of the Charlotte Hornets who's really taken off this season. He's been super efficient.
Speaker 1:Obviously, he's in a different role than Cooper where he has other guys producing more on offense, but it's really been in one of the best draft classes we've had in a while, it's it's been pretty cool to watch.
Speaker 2:Yeah. To start off with this race between the two of them, the hard thing with these is that the awards are not very explicitly defined.
Speaker 1:No. And that. It's the eye of the beholder.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's that's the confusing thing because I genuinely think that which one of these you prefer entirely depends on which theory you take to, like, the the rookie of the year award. I will give you my my breakdown personally. If you take the rookie of the year award in the same way you take the, like, in all NBA or MVP, as in, like, I'm just looking for who played the best 82 games, then I think you're taking Khan Knievel Because Khan's bad games are much better than Cooper Flag's bad games. Khan has been more consistent.
Speaker 2:He was better right off the bat of this season. And he also is unironically, like, one of the 10 best shooters in the league, not rookie shooters.
Speaker 1:Right away. Shooters. Period. Last night, the the Charlotte Hornets played on ESPN, and one of the graphics they had was comparing him to Steph's rookie year. And he's obviously, Steph started slow.
Speaker 1:We we all know that for the first two or three years of his career.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But he's already on pace to be to have a better year than him. And it'll be he'll have a race to kind of if he continues on this pace to be one of the best shooter. It's crazy to say as a rookie, but it's like Yeah. He can be a top 10 shooter of all time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, yeah. Like, if if you're talking like made threes, you Yeah. Exactly. I mean, interesting.
Speaker 2:If you just wanna look at like, okay, let's look at like points per game, true shooting. Who what are we doing here? Khan is currently leading Cooper in both. Khan is averaging 19.1 points per game and doing so on a incredible true shooting of 64% true shooting, which is like unreal for a rookie. Cooper is behind him just by point three points per game at 18.8 and does that 18.8 points per game on his own 56% true shooting.
Speaker 2:However, you do have to talk about, although Khan is a respectable defender and rebounds as well, you know, there's more that's happening with Cooper. There's the context of him essentially coming in as a 18 year old and being, like, run the whole offense is
Speaker 1:absolutely ridiculous. A really it's a thing that he has to shoulder, which he probably shouldn't have to at this age. But Yeah. With his talent, he's been able to do it and even beat teams like Knicks. Like, played really well in that, especially in that first half.
Speaker 1:Like, he kind of got them out to that start to win that game.
Speaker 2:And to talk about, if you're looking at, like, just who's played the best game so far, I think it's Khan. But on the other side, when we do do rookie of the years or rookie of the year awards, often the answer is sort of who is taking on the highest usage and doing the most as a rookie. Like, who is displaying the widest array of skills as a rookie. Like, any a lot of centers come in and rebound really great their rookie year. It's not really giving us credit to them the same way that just putting out big scoring numbers in your rookie year is like like Paulo did or, you know, other players in the past.
Speaker 2:And from that perspective, you gotta look got gotta give a little a lot of credit to Cooper Flag. At his age, putting out the output he does while still being a good rim protector, consistent defender, gets out in transition, he does it all. And that's just like the divide. I I think if you're asking me personally, like, what kind of way I prefer, I think I prefer Khan.
Speaker 1:I think I do too, but it it it is such a discredit to, like, the actual ask that Flag is being asked to do, especially taking over like, when once you even bring in the Luca aspect of it where he's coming into this franchise trying to save it Yeah. Basically after 99% of the fan base hates him. Yeah. Or they don't hate him, but they hated the situation with him coming in. So it is yeah.
Speaker 1:I I think I'm gonna go Khan too, but I I do just wanna respect what Cooper Flagg has done this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I mean, when you're like, you really can't over exaggerate how insane it is, the load that's being placed on him on both ends of the floor, not just one end. But then you're like, well, it's also crazy for a rookie to average near 20 points per game on 64% for shooting. Yeah. That's equally as crazy.
Speaker 1:It's a a race where any other year, the other guy would win. Yeah. Like, I think we'd have to look back. I don't even know who would even can be considered for like best rookies of the years. But even his rookie of the year wasn't like
Speaker 2:He would have won over these guys.
Speaker 1:I don't think he would have though. Are you sure? I I gotta look back at the sass
Speaker 2:He was like the best he was like the second best defender in the league.
Speaker 1:Well, defensive defensive part of it is is interesting because I also think
Speaker 2:Rookie Wemby 21 points per game. He was? 11 rebounds, four assists.
Speaker 1:Okay. Never mind.
Speaker 2:Doing so on 56% shooting.
Speaker 1:That just goes That goes to how crazy the hype was because I remember that considered, like, kind of a not a disappointing rookie year, but it wasn't like everything it lived up to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. I no. Wemby has, like if you're ranking, like, best rookie years and you're not counting, like, you know, guys who were doing four year college because that's Yeah. Kind of a little different.
Speaker 2:It's got he's probably top five rookie year ever. But I will say, you know, I, you know, I I gotta be honest. I'm I'm biased towards against flag.
Speaker 1:No. Not you're not a flag guy?
Speaker 2:It it just it annoys me that Dallas got them. I'm to this day, I'm like, that's unfair and stupid that they were rewarded for their for their stupidity and it pisses me off.
Speaker 1:Second worst thing that happened that day.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's like That
Speaker 1:that was that's like one of the most monumental days at least for this decade this decade in NBA Yeah. Lore with that and then the Tatum Achilles, which I mean, I guess it's gonna be proven to be kinda I I think when it happened, everyone was like, oh, this is monumental. But now
Speaker 2:Were those on the same day?
Speaker 1:It was the same night. Wow. I also made a home and won that day in golf. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh. Roller coaster of emotions for me.
Speaker 2:Wow. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's what a day.
Speaker 1:Well, I I I ended up crying myself asleep though because Tatum Torres Achilles.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Not gonna lie. I would too. Yeah. But I I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's funny. That's like my one you know, I think every sports fan has their like their sports fan sin.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Some guys, it's just bias. They they will argue their team to the death and they don't even care. They will they will lose all reason and argue their team to their death. Some people hold grudges. I have a friend who to this day will never acknowledge a single good thing that Tom Thibodeau has ever done purely because of Derrick Rose.
Speaker 2:You have some people who and I'm gonna be honest, this might be the cardinal sin of sports fans being a bandwagon. Yeah. I have a friend who grew up in India and says that the Warriors are his favorite team because they are the closest to India. I was like, don't don't even give me that. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That's ridiculous. Let's get real here. I don't even know if they are but either way, I I won't accept it either way. That's funny. My my cardinal sports sports fan sin is that it it it just makes me mad when things are like distinctly unfair like this.
Speaker 2:I don't know. The
Speaker 1:lottery has always been a little fishy.
Speaker 2:And Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. This this one was just the latest of them. So, yeah. Rookie of the year race, it'll be interesting to see who wins. I think it'll be tight throughout the end of it.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't
Speaker 2:Oh, what's your oh, one one other point. Cooper Flag has been getting better by the day.
Speaker 1:That is true.
Speaker 2:And you have to factor that in like he's been getting closer and and like closer to closer to to Khan by the day which is weird because in the standings it's been the opposite just because of the narratives. I I wanna ask you what what's your prediction though? What do you think the media will say? Who do think it'll actually go to?
Speaker 1:I think if oh, man. That's tough. Right now, Mavs are only a game and a half out. Like, I think if they get into the play in too, like, they sneak in because Kyrie should be back pretty soon. Right?
Speaker 1:Or is he just calling it the
Speaker 2:We haven't heard anything about that. Like, know, like, theoretically, he should be back in the next month, two months.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'd Yeah. You might shut him down if
Speaker 2:they're I've not heard any I've not seen any rumors floating.
Speaker 1:I think it's gonna go to Khan because I think everyone I think every like the advanced stats point his way. It's like kinda like the Jokic MVP cases where it's like, he's just so much better when it comes to these stats that you kinda have to give it to him. So I'm I'm I'm gonna predict Con.
Speaker 2:I think Cooper's gonna end up winning it. Really? You think it'll flip? I'm gonna be on it's it means a lot that you got picked number one. Like, it it's because like in the MVP, your your your standing when going into the year is based off of, like, other stuff, you know, other seasons.
Speaker 2:Going into this, people just, have a bias of, like, if this guy's the overall pick, like, they've been hearing him get gassed up in the media for a year before he got picked even And I think there's a lot of bias going into it. And I think that people love numbers. And Woah. If he's able to really get good near the end of this year, which I think he totally can as he continues to ascend I mean, this guy's 18. He's getting better by the day.
Speaker 2:He's gonna be 10% better by the end of the year. So I think he will get voted.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Look at if you had to guess what the MVP odds right now are, if did you have you gotten it or rookie of the year odds, excuse me.
Speaker 2:I know that
Speaker 1:Don't don't look it up. I want you to get I'm not. Okay.
Speaker 2:I know that nba.com just put Khan at the top in their like their ranking on their website. I feel like, again, I feel like Cooper is gonna be like minus 300 or something.
Speaker 1:Minus 800.
Speaker 2:Oh my god.
Speaker 1:Ginger can nipple at plus 600 right now. Jeez. That seems like an incredible value. Ridiculous. Six to one odds on a guy who has Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like those incredible advanced stats like we talked about. Yeah. That would definitely be worth putting a little something on because
Speaker 2:Right now?
Speaker 1:Especially like even if
Speaker 2:You need to refresh your browser or something like Like that's the odds right
Speaker 1:now. No. That's the odds right now. Preseason, it was minus two twenty five. Now it's 800.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's that's ridiculous. I mean, this, you know, this kind of goes what I said. I I just think the media, they will they'll like what he's doing and I also think, you gotta remember, Dallas, one of the five biggest markets in the NBA, Charlotte, maybe the smallest. Moving on, would you like to get on the really bad news that we have to cover?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Jimmy Butler, torn ACL, just got kind of I I didn't see the play. Did he get like rolled up on or whatever or did he was it just non contact?
Speaker 2:No. He sort of came down on he sort of went up for a like a a layup or sort of push shot and then he just kind of came down, like him and I forget who's guarding him, their knees kind of came down at the same spot and like their knees sort of pushed his to the side and, you know, I mean, you can imagine what I'm saying. It just seemed like his knee kind of came out from under him, like stuck out to the left and yeah. For an ACL.
Speaker 1:That's it's really a shame. And when we look at what it means for this Warriors team now, they lose 20 points per game. They're kinda only second option. They're only other suitable offensive player.
Speaker 2:And the guy they just exchanged assets for.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And it was kind of the last ditch to get Curry a competitive team, and now we really see where it's going. It's like, if you're the Warriors, do you kind of flip everything the other way and you see this draft class and you say, hey, let's just try our lottery luck?
Speaker 2:You know, if I'm the Warriors, I have a meeting with Steph Curry and I say, what do you want us to do? And I do whatever Steph Curry says.
Speaker 1:Know what? That's that's fair. That's totally yes. I I agree with that.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you heard about this as well. It seems like they're moving on from Steve Kerr after this year. Really?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I could see that. I could see how especially after that long, it just starts to this he was the guy who revolutionized the game and now everyone's playing it the same way. Yeah. And then after that, what do you have?
Speaker 1:You know, like, you want me to revolutionize it again? Like, that's just kind of a tough ask to do as a head coach. And he's getting older and
Speaker 2:I mean, he's been a great coach.
Speaker 1:He still
Speaker 2:remains a
Speaker 1:great coach. But like, it's like, he had like such a far gap for so long and that's why they were so good, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I it's And with just the guys he's had
Speaker 1:to deal with, these younger guys that have never really developed.
Speaker 2:I mean, well, okay. I think that in the same way that the rift between Denver's front office and coach is what delayed them being as good as they could be and like kind of put a cap on a few years for them, I really think I I don't know who to put it on because, you know, it's like I'm not in the room. I don't know, like, should I blame the coach for picking players who the coach or or should I blame blame the GM for picking and signing players that the coach doesn't want? Or do you blame the coach for not just sticking with what the GM gives him? I don't know which one you go with.
Speaker 2:Both are legends in their field. But the rift between those two is what has, like, I frankly, like ruined this Warriors roster over the span of five years. I it was not nearly as bad in the years. Like, I I was not the type of person who was like, oh, this two timelines is ridiculous. It's never gonna work.
Speaker 2:I didn't have the foresight to see it like that. But oh my gosh, when you look at it right now, it's like this is a disaster. Like straight up a disaster. Yeah. From what they've had to like even if you those picks that they had, say you don't pick them and you use them as trade assets,
Speaker 1:like you would be so much better off. And then even guys like, I guess now Andrew Wiggins, that was what the Jimmy Butler thing was and now you don't have him and it's it's really tough kinda just seeing what they've degraded from assets wise where they had so much. Yeah. And now they they really don't have much to trade. That's that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Because you're not gonna trade Steph, obviously. You're not gonna trade Draymond. That's a lot of your cap right there. You can't trade Jimmy because I don't think anyone's gonna take $50,000,000 for a guy who just tore his ACL. They they really don't have any options here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And beyond that, it was a bad stroke of luck to have your number two overall pick in the COVID draft. Yeah. Not that I like, you know, James Wiseman looked good. I mean, no one you know, there was no like national media guy who was like, you the red flag like, you guys are missing this thing about Wiseman, like, there was no big thing.
Speaker 2:To recount, these are their first round picks. Twenty nineteen, Jordan Poole, pick 28.
Speaker 1:Which was a six that's a good pick. Like Yeah.
Speaker 2:Good pick. Wiseman, number two overall and you pick a complete and utter bust. I watched him on the Pistons. Let me my god. That dude is awful.
Speaker 1:Old fashioned bust. He's probably the worst bust of the twenty twenties. Right?
Speaker 2:Oh, he might be. Oh, I'll get back to you on that. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Killing Eric, was Killian Hayes 21? What was he? Was he 20?
Speaker 2:Well, he was like number two is a far cry from number. I think he was like nine seven. Nine? Seven Seven or nine is bad but number two is like, oh.
Speaker 1:Anthony Bennett Yeah. Style.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Then in but James Wiseman, like complete zero, just never did anything for anyone. In 2021, they picked Jonathan Kuminga at seven. They picked Moses Moody at 14. I think Moody at 14.
Speaker 2:Moody at 14 is I'm happy with that. But Jonathan Kuminga, there's a long saga of details about him. They picked him above quite a few other players and this is where you're like, do you blame Kerr? Do you blame the front office? Like, what's the issue here?
Speaker 2:Because it's been an issue for so long and Kuminga once had great value. Yeah. Yeah. He could have been traded like two years ago for a lot.
Speaker 1:And the thing with him getting picked too at seven is France Wagner went eight.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I know Kerr wanted Wagner.
Speaker 1:And then you look at the Moody pick, two picks after is Sengun, three picks after is Trey Murphy, four picks. Jeez. They missed out on Sengyun Murphy and Jalen Johnson in the span of six
Speaker 2:picks. Wow.
Speaker 1:You know? Like even though I we did say it's a good pick, I I think when you look at that, you say they misevaluated the talent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's not a completely like, it's not the Wiseman thing.
Speaker 1:No. But it's But
Speaker 2:it's It's like, that wasn't un it wasn't awful, you know. And the reason we're doing all this when, you know, the thing we're talking about is Jimmy Butler is because, you know, this is like, I don't know, like, this isn't like the final nail in the coffin. This is like the final shovel of dirt on top of the coffin in the ground, like
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean, we've been gone for a long long time and now it's it's like, oh my gosh, like you ruined it. And when you don't plan well, you set yourself up for big injuries causing things like this and I I I just I don't know what they do. I frankly, I have no clue.
Speaker 1:Yeah. At this point, I think you just you kinda have to just strip it to the bare bones. Right?
Speaker 2:But do you trade Curry?
Speaker 1:No. You can't. You you I think you just you have your billion dollar stadium, you have Curry, and you just kind of play out these last few years. As bad as it sounds, you're still gonna get people to go. You still have a huge fan base in one of the biggest markets in the NBA, like and you still have that guy.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:I guess. It's just it's so sad to me that, you know, since like 2020, they've been planning for the post stuff era and since then he's had like six seasons of genuinely best Top five. Not just like good, like like truly championship level amazing. And I mean, God bless them. They still got that '22 title.
Speaker 1:They had a shot in '23. Or was that the year? That was the year they lost that was the year they lost to the I'm trying
Speaker 2:to I think don't think they did really. No.
Speaker 1:They didn't. '24. What was '24?
Speaker 2:'24 was the year they
Speaker 1:oh. Lord, what what Was that a playing loss maybe?
Speaker 2:Oh, that might have been the yeah. That might have been the year that they that they actually didn't make the playoffs. And last year, they also
Speaker 1:I mean, were seven seed last year and they they beat who did they beat?
Speaker 2:They beat the Houston Rockets. Oh, Rockets in seven. Again, another one super sad that Steph got injured in that Timberwolves series.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I I thought they would win that series and at the very least, like, you know, I wanna see it and jeez, like, it's just awful. I mean, what are you gonna do?
Speaker 1:Yeah. 24. Sorry. Just finishing that point. Lost to the Kings by 20 by 2024 in the playing game.
Speaker 1:So that was
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember that.
Speaker 1:So they are yeah. I think you just
Speaker 2:Oh, 2023 was when they, you know, they beat the Kings and then they lost the Lakers. And then the next year, they did not make the playoffs at all. The next year, they were they actually, they won 46 games and still didn't win the playoffs. I wanna do you wanna touch on, like, actually, like, Butler himself? Can you set your misgivings aside as a selfish You
Speaker 1:could you laid out first and because I don't think I can give him a like, I I respect him as a player, but I also just I dislike him. Just going all all the games I've had to watch with him.
Speaker 2:I understand that, to be honest. Jimmy Butler, genuinely one of the most unique players of all time. I think that for one, there are very few players ever that started off their career as a true role player and then developed into an actual number one playoff guy as late as he did. It's rare for players to do that. And one of the most interesting parts about Jimmy's game is you could always tell that he carried on the role player energy that he had because the way his game works, you know, everyone it's almost confusing why he's as good as he is.
Speaker 2:You know, he often doesn't even average 20 a game. You know, he doesn't look, you know, anything crazy. It's it looks somewhat pedestrian, but the guy has a formula. He gets to the line a lot, a lot. Like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I think he has more Yeah. Made free throws than made field goals this year.
Speaker 1:He'll average like 10 he there was seasons where he gets to the line 10 times per game.
Speaker 2:I had to tell you there was not.
Speaker 1:But Or play I I would say nine plus. Oh, yeah. Total. Then in the playoffs, he would be at 10 per game.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The playoffs yeah. But he got to the line a lot. He doesn't turn the ball over like ever. He's a ultra low turnover player.
Speaker 2:He can shoot, he can defend the hell out of the ball and he can rebound so well. And it's like just one of the most unique formulas for a winning player especially one of the most unique formulas for a number one like, you know, number one guy in a team player. And I just don't think we'll ever see anyone like him, see a career like him. I I love Jimmy
Speaker 1:Bowie. Yeah. At the rim, those were the the ones that really just grinded my gears when he would just he would get a put back, miss it, put back, make in front of, like, seven footers. Yeah. And he's just up there outworking them and getting the basket.
Speaker 1:He there is definitely, like you mentioned, that role player energy where he it's like, you never know when your next minutes are gonna come, but you don't see that from a star player.
Speaker 2:I remember in game seven of the Houston series, I think it was game seven, clutch game, Shengun puts the shot up, Andre Mound misses, Jimmy skied in, like like, soared into this rebound. And like that rebound everyone, you know, because it's a Houston team. Everyone's like, we're not even as worried about the shot as we are the rebound. Kaiman skied in strong rebound like also dude is ripped. He is so strong.
Speaker 2:You can tell like like you said, somehow when he gets these rebounds, he gets them over like three defenders and you're like, how did he just he's six six, like how did he just get all over those guys and like he's just like that. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I wonder I wonder if he's gonna be a guy who kind of gets lost in this era.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's it's easy to. I mean
Speaker 1:Because if you look back, he's his best MVP finish was tenth. Like, was never that guy in the regular season where you're saying I think he's made what? Three, four or five All NBA teams so
Speaker 2:Six All Stars, five All NBAs. Five All
Speaker 1:Defense. Yeah. So there is those things and I think the thing he will be most remembered for is the bubble run. And that the picture of him like just he was doing it all and he came up short and he was or I think it was the game they won in that series Yeah. Where he he was like hurdled over the, what's it called, the banister there where he was just he was done.
Speaker 1:But yeah, great career. But I do I do worry about that where is he like we gotta look LeBron, KD, Curry. Yeah. He's a lot less if you list the best But for what he did, I don't think it it's as fair for that, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I also man, I I know, like, I don't even wanna get into this to do. That 23 conference The
Speaker 1:time out stuff and Grant Williams of all people to
Speaker 2:You're saying he would be known Take him off. That 2020 run? Think twenty twenty three runners? They were the one seed. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, they if you're the one seed, you should win. That year, the the they played the the the Bucks. The Bucks were by far championship favorites. Not just Eastern Conference favorites, championship. They beat that Bucks team.
Speaker 2:They took care of the Knicks. I believe it was the Knicks.
Speaker 1:And then,
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. That Celtic series when I was like, this is a foregone conclusion. Like surely the Celtics
Speaker 1:They won the first three games too.
Speaker 2:I remember those clutch threes he had in game two, just daggers and oh my gosh. I I I also love just personality wise, you know, he's a rough personality.
Speaker 1:The Tom cooler. Great number Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you gotta say, he is a guy who sticks by his beliefs like no other player. Like his whole thing with Kat where if he he was like, Kat doesn't work hard enough. Like he's he's weak and just like would never play with him past that point. Like he was so hardcore about the things he believed and like the way he carried himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's the other thing with like the what ifs. The what ifs in '23 or in '20 and that that Philly year where say that Kawhi shot doesn't go in and then Wow. You have the Bucks in the conference finals. Gosh.
Speaker 2:Wasn't even thinking about the Philly year.
Speaker 1:And then Embiid win like Embiid gets a ring, Jimmy gets a ring, does he stay in Philly? I think that's one of the biggest what ifs of his career and the current NBA. So we are not at an hour twenty right now. I think we should pack it up, but good episode here. We'll come back to you next week hopefully and keep you going for the NBA season.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.