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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
Olas Media. Narcissists are professionals at alienating a victim from their own children. They weaponize them against them. I discovered this part of it far too late. She said to me, some of your children will never speak to you again.
Voiceover:Welcome
Jon McKenney:to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. I'm John McKenney with my friend.
Padideh Jafari:Pettita Jaffari.
Jon McKenney:How are you Pettita? It's been a little while since we've recorded. It's good to see you again.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, it's great to see you. I know we talk pretty much every day, we just don't We record every
Jon McKenney:do. We do. Things are going well?
Padideh Jafari:Things are going well, the firm is incredibly busy, but you know, it seems like everyone in LA and Orange County is getting a divorce these days, so we're really busy.
Jon McKenney:Go figure. So well, that kit that does keep you busy. There's no question about that. I too am busy and just getting over bronchitis. If my voice sounds a little weird, you'll understand why.
Jon McKenney:Been a little ride with that. So, and I'm coming up on a birthday soon too which is going to be a lot of fun. Going to have a little celebration at the house this upcoming weekend and, wish wish we didn't live on opposite coasts so you could, be a part of that.
Padideh Jafari:I know. I'm sorry my husband and I are missing it. But we will be there in I you guys
Jon McKenney:could come. No question, no question. So we have a really great topic today for, the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. One that probably generates almost more emotion than any other and, it is the idea of parental alienation. And you have to understand that narcissists are professionals at alienating a victim from their own children.
Jon McKenney:They weaponize them against them, and use lots of different tactics. We're going to kind of talk about some of these today and how they go about this, because they're you want to understand what you're in and I don't know about you Padida, I discovered this part of it far too late unfortunately, in my relationship and we can kind of talk about, how all that came about for me as well so that people understand what's going on. So provides for a pretty difficult experience.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, and I've seen it obviously from the legal perspective, in the courts. You know, parental alienation, California now has codified coercive control, which is another sort of name for parental alienation.
Jon McKenney:Coercive control sounds right, what it sounds actually.
Padideh Jafari:So I've seen it from the legal perspective and, you know, clients that I represent who've been alienated from their child. And so we'll go through the legal definition.
Jon McKenney:I've got it, I want to say upfront that I, you know, you you brought up the their, you know, the the legal end of it and and you have you have that perspective, you know, where where one parent or the other is trying to alienate or trying to keep a parent away from their own children and they're doing it through legal means. And generally speaking, I would guess, Padita, that's with younger children. Is that not correct?
Padideh Jafari:Yes. So we talked about, earlier that there's two kinds of alienation. The first is with the children who are younger through the legal process, and then the second is this false narrative when the children start to get older. I think this was all your idea, so I wanna make sure that you get credit for this.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Well, no. It's, you know, no credit necessary. They're really I I really do believe there are two different kinds of parental alienation. One one is a legal alienation, not illegal but a legal alienation where where one parent tries to alienate the children from the other parent through a legal process and again, this is usually done with younger kids because they are controlled by the courts and through the divorce, these kinds of things happen.
Jon McKenney:And then you have an emotional alienation as well where where the the narcissist is trying to create a false narrative in the children so that the children hate the victimized parent. So as if it's not enough for a victim to have to go deal with this narcissist face to face and one on one and then have to work through the divorce process and all of this. They also have to go deal with their children and perhaps particularly in adult children or children that are older teens have to deal with this kind of hatred, that the narcissist projects onto their children. And quite honestly it's almost like dealing with many narcissists in your own kids. It can be excruciatingly difficult.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. So Padita, have you seen a lot of this emotional alienation in your line of work? Because I know you certainly, you wind up having a lot of child custody issues. And there's no question you see the legal piece of this. But what about the emotional, alienation?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, the emotional alienation happens, I think, with older children because younger children just don't know, right? They don't know that they're being alienated from their other parent. But with the older children, would say, by older I mean seven years old and up, you see that they're being emotionally manipulated by the narcissist. And it's really, I have to say, excruciating to watch because, as you know, we represent only the victims, which we say are victims, to survivors. We do not represent the narcissist at our law firm.
Padideh Jafari:And so when we represent the victims, we really empathize with this part of it. Because although they're dealing with a narcissist and it's a high conflict divorce or a paternity case, they're now being alienated, as you said, by their child. And so it's very difficult to watch. And so I just wanted to give a quick definition. I found this, this morning actually, a judge said this in one of my cases, so I wanted to give a definition of how the courts view parental alienation.
Padideh Jafari:He destroy the affection of the child for the other parent.
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Padideh Jafari:And they will not permit any third person to do so. So not only the parent, but also a third party. And that becomes important because we know that with narcissists, they have narcissist mothers. You know, sometimes they get with, you know, a significant other who can be, you know, also So that's why the third party is also important. That's what the court's definition it's such a simple definition, but you can see that word destroy, that's what the narcissist does.
Padideh Jafari:That's how they achieve parental alienation or coercive control and, yes, so I just wanted to make sure that we So got that out
Jon McKenney:let's talk about this for a second. So I've had people ask, you know, when does this begin? And I and I full disclosure, I discovered this piece of it. I I I knew I I was married to a narcissist the last couple of years of the relationship. I kind of figured it out and, had been seeing a therapist for it.
Jon McKenney:But the thing that I did not realize and I discovered far too late was this parental alienation component. And for me personally, I learned in one statement where it, I went, I was just shocked just shocked. So throughout the process, so I got to this place where I felt like I needed to tell her that I wanted to separate. And I sat down in the room and we had some conversation and I'll never forget this. She said to me, some of your children will never speak to you again.
Jon McKenney:Now you have to understand something. I I never I never spoke to my children about my ex. Never bad mouthed her to my ex. Still don't. Never never have.
Jon McKenney:Never will. That's not my place. Let God deal with that. But in that moment, I realized that my ex had had all kinds of conversation about me with my children. It's emotionally incestuous, painting her problems onto the children.
Jon McKenney:And in that moment, I realized, oh my god, something else is going on here that I did not realize was happening. And truthfully, she's right. And as I look back, and of course hindsight is now twentytwenty, I can go back in my own life and identify some of this course of control or this parental alienation, smear campaigning, whatever you want to call it because all those things are components. I can go back to this beginning even when the children are little, trying to establish a position of power over the children over me. I can remember even when my kids were little, wanting to go be involved in something and she would me for it and wanting to go do something for the children and she would fight me for it.
Jon McKenney:And there were even conversations where I would go, Why are you fighting me? It feels like there's a power struggle for the children all the time. And I'm not in a power struggle with you over them, but it feels like you are constantly trying to fight me for prominence and preeminence over the children. And and and ultimately as I look back on this this whole parental alienation process, I think it began that far back. As though she was almost preparing for divorce right from the beginning.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I mean, we said this, I think, on the first, our pilot episode, that actually narcissists fear abandonment because something happened to them as a child where they were abandoned, so they're mimicking this. And I think actually that the narcissist prepares the child before the child's even born.
Jon McKenney:So you think even at some subconscious level, like this is going on, like from the beginning, from the very beginning?
Padideh Jafari:Yes. And I think they strategically plan to have children because they know that the child cannot leave them, but their spouse will definitely leave them at some point because they have these abandonment issues and people have left them in their life. So that's how they look at it like this person will unconditionally love me. They can never leave me. And so that's why if you look at it too, they have multiple children.
Padideh Jafari:They usually don't have just one child. So they have, know, they say the golden child, and then they have the one child that figures them out. And then sometimes they'll have a middle child. So like, they'll have like three or four or five children just to make sure that they are not abandoned. And so I actually think it starts very, very early on in their mind and in their psyche.
Jon McKenney:So looking back for me, of course I'm alienated from my children now and again, not under my will. Basically, they've divorced me too. But at at the same time, I could go back now and look and and one of the things I could never I could never figure out while I was still married And it shifted gradually over time. It was always me and then all of them. Like they were in their own little tribe and that she was she created and cultivated this little tribe with the children.
Jon McKenney:And I was an outsider to this tribe. There was conversation that went on just between them and I was always the last to know. And what I and and over time I realized also that that conversations that were taking place with my kids instead of my kids coming to me, they would go to her and then she would communicate to me and then I would communicate to her and then back. And I didn't realize this stuff was happening as it was going on. But these were some of the telltale signs of parental alienation while I was still married.
Jon McKenney:It was happening all under my nose and I had no idea that this was taking place until that moment. And then now as I look back I go, Oh my God, yes. This is what took place. This is what happened. Started when they were very, very little and ultimately the attitudes that the narcissist has towards you, they give to your kids.
Jon McKenney:And if they've done that, they've won.
Padideh Jafari:Right. Yeah, it happens over a long period of time. And because narcissists are master manipulators, they know exactly what to do and what to say. It can be very subtle, John. It doesn't have to be like, know, don't like your father, you know, we don't like your father, your father divorced us.
Padideh Jafari:It doesn't even have to be that extreme. It can be as simple as the child comes back after visitation or parenting time with the father. The child comes back home and the mom says, Oh, dad gave you another book? You know, it's very subtle, right? The kid's like, well, I like books.
Padideh Jafari:You know? And the kid doesn't know, right? And it's this very subtle way of saying it instead of saying, Oh, wow, I see that dad and dad went and got another book. I know how much you love books. I mean, it's just this very subtle thing.
Padideh Jafari:Over time this is why this is the long game for the narcissist, over time the child knows, listen, we deal with a lot of children, okay, and these children are extremely smart. They're actually more smarter today than I think in our generation because in our generation we didn't have access to technology, knowledge, education the way that these children have. And a lot of these kids, their siblings, sorry, their, people that they go to school with are also their, you know, divorced parents. And so they talk, right? They talk amongst themselves.
Padideh Jafari:And so it's just a little subtle thing over time that happens, and that child knows this is not good. Mommy's not happy. Mommy's not happy. Dad did something wrong again. He bought me a book.
Padideh Jafari:And so over time this wears on the child to where they just don't want to go with daddy anymore because they know if they go with daddy, they're going to be in trouble with mommy.
Jon McKenney:Well, I think, you know, as I think about some of this too in my own life and with my own kids, these are subtle conversations. You know, the image in my head is like a jagged rock in a river, right? And you kind of stick it in the river and years later the rock is smooth. It's kind of the edges are smoothed off the thing gradually over time. And I really do think, for parental alienation that's kind of how it begins.
Jon McKenney:And sometimes it can be ridiculously passive, you know. Generally speaking the parent who's the victim is the better parent. They have a healthier sense. In fact, they're really the only parent in the relationship. The narcissist tend more towards being more like children.
Jon McKenney:They tend to be permissive. They tend to manipulate children through their permissiveness. So a victim would come up and say, Okay, do you know what? You're not having in this illustration, a victim would say, You're not having candy for dinner. And the narcissist goes, Well, you know your father, Right?
Jon McKenney:It's passive disrespect. You know your father. You lay down healthy parenting and the narcissist redefines healthy parenting to the children and ultimately over time winds up creating in them this weaponized kind of child, this child that hates the victim so that when all of this is done, when the narcissist, you know, when the victim finally has the courage to leave the narcissist, not only are they leaving their ex or their spouse, but they also wind up losing their children in the process. And you talk about something else that I found really fascinating there, and you talked about like a third party. I hadn't thought about that so much but I think I saw a lot of that in my life.
Jon McKenney:What do you think about that? Where do you kind of see those third parties being a part of all this?
Padideh Jafari:Well, narcissists are usually enabled by their family members. They always say that, and this is very common, that narcissistic men have narcissistic mothers. And so they have this mother wound. And so, you know, we see that dynamic a lot. But it could be anybody, right?
Padideh Jafari:It could be a sibling. It could be another parent. It can be a girlfriend or boyfriend of the parent, you know, kind of subtly saying something. Doesn't have to be so overt, but it's enough to where the child figures it out that they should not be with the other parent. That's why that word destroy is in that definition I gave earlier.
Padideh Jafari:You're really destroying the child's like, child is excited. Like, I want to show daddy the book. Want to show mommy that daddy bought me this book. And it's like, all of a sudden, it's like, Oh my gosh, this is a bad thing, because look at mom's reaction, you know?
Jon McKenney:Right.
Padideh Jafari:And and we're saying mom and dad, it's interchangeable. We know that. Absolutely. And so it's really a brainwashing the child over time. Brainwashing.
Jon McKenney:Yes. That's a big word, but I think it really does apply here that, you know, this process of constant disrespect, of painting their own baggage towards their, the narcissist painting their own baggage towards the victim, on the children and giving them these very same attitudes is really like a brainwashing over time. It's frog in the kettle where they don't realize the heat is being turned up. And it's almost like preparing the children for the moment when the victim finally has the courage to step up and say I'm not gonna go do this anymore. I'm I'm out.
Jon McKenney:And and and the spouse goes guess what? I got your kids too. And that brainwashing takes place over a period of time, where the victim is constantly disrespected and constantly seen as the enemy, while they deliver good parenting which is kind of ridiculous. I think it's very, very sinister, when you look at it. And the kids have absolutely no idea.
Jon McKenney:I know you were talking about third party. In my particular situation, I had a couple of third parties that really just hurt my situation. One was my parents. And now I've understood, I've looked back, and now I can see some that my parents have, I'm not going to call them narcissists, but they have some narcissistic tendencies in the way they handle conflict and they want to pretend about stuff instead of dealing honestly with it. They're not so present when it comes to conflict and those kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:And I know the mantra that not only my ex but my parents and probably my sisters as well. I've lost my siblings and my parents in this process too. It's that, you know, well John has has abandoned his fatherly responsibilities to the family. He's not just abandoned her. He's not just left her in marriage.
Jon McKenney:He's abandoned our family, which is not true. I I certainly wanna be involved with my kids, but they've been told that I left them, that I divorced them, which is absolutely and unqualitatively not the truth. I divorced my ex. And because they were told that, they divorced me and have this attitude and disposition towards me in large part, it's like dealing with, it's like dealing with my ex in little form with the kids. On top of that, is the church that I was a part of has done the same thing.
Jon McKenney:They've told my kids that I've abandoned them and that not a fact. And that I have abandoned the whole family. And these kinds of things are some of the brainwashing is very passive. Think much of it we've talked about, is over a period of time. And then there's a lot of it like that which is kind of overt towards the end of the relationship where you wind up going, yeah, that's a problem.
Jon McKenney:And these third parties help crystallize and codify the story in the children. And ultimately the narcissists have the best case scenario. They don't necessarily have to continue alienating the children from, actively alienating the children from the victim. They've already done it. And guess what?
Jon McKenney:The children choose themselves to be out of relationship with the victim and it's through their own, because the narcissist has replicated their hatred, for the victim in the child.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, you're right. They say, they often say, you know, dad or mom, they'll say, you know, is leaving us, is divorcing us, you know? And it's like, no, I'm not divorcing my child or my children. I'm divorcing this person who is a narcissist, and nobody can live with this person anymore. Right.
Padideh Jafari:So that's sort of how they frame it for the child, and the child has this abandonment thing and they cling to the narcissistic parent they feel like they're going to be abandoned, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I think this has been such a great conversation because I know that our listeners who are victims to survivors are going to really identify with this message. But I want to, I know you do also, we want to give them hope.
Padideh Jafari:Like, how do you win your child back? What do you do to win Like, your child let's say that the narcissist has done this and your child is alienated from you, what do you do? What are the steps that, you know, a couple steps that you can take? What do you think?
Jon McKenney:First off, you know, I think that we also have to understand the tactics some of the narcissists are using against you. Triangulation. And part of winning your children back is understanding these things and making sure that these tactics you don't give into them in any kind of way. Triangulation is a good example for one. Basically it's where instead of you communicating with the child directly, they have controlled the conversation because again narcissists don't trust anybody and they certainly don't trust the victim.
Jon McKenney:So they've given your kids their distrust. So your kids don't trust you because of the narcissist. So instead of communicating with you directly because they don't trust you because the narcissist is given that distrust, they communicate through the narcissist, the narcissist communicates to you and then you communicate back and then over to the children. So some of these tactics that the narcissist uses have to end. So I know for me personally, these kinds of things were as I divorced, these kinds of things were going on and I had to end them.
Jon McKenney:So my kids were in college at the time and I was certainly doing what I was supposed to go do and pay for some things for them for college. And what initially was happening was they would tell mom what they needed. Mom would text me because I wasn't talking to her on the phone and still not. And then she wanted me to respond and I said, No, I'm not doing that. Okay?
Jon McKenney:These kids are grown ass adults and if they need something they can communicate with me directly. I wanted that conversation upfront. So that was one of the things that had to end. The lying and the gaslighting that narcissists give as well, sometimes you're going to be in a position where you have to redefine the truth for the kids. Not taking the disrespect that your narcissist has for you from your children as well.
Jon McKenney:You want to be in relationship with them but you don't want to tolerate disrespect and you don't want to be in a position also where you're talking badly about them. And I will tell you this, the one piece of advice, you get advice on narcissistic abuse from lots of different people and lots of different things and there is one piece of advice I've gotten that has been absolutely consistent through every single person I've spoken with about narcissistic abuse and trying to win your children back. And it's this piece of advice. Don't ever, ever, ever bad mouth your ex to your kids.
Padideh Jafari:100%.
Jon McKenney:That you take look, they're down here, you know, scavengers, you know, and you're going to live up here elevated. I don't ever speak of my ex negatively. In fact, I don't speak of her at all. And if I do, it's in a historical context, hey, we did this together, we did that together, and I'm speaking positively about memories. I do not paint my attitudes towards her on my children.
Jon McKenney:I have them, but I don't ever paint my attitudes towards them on the children. I don't ask my ex as well. And it's not, it doesn't come up in conversation. I don't allow it to come up in conversation because I don't want to have to converse about her. She's not a part of my life anymore.
Jon McKenney:But I want to be the person who's going to live elevated and who's going to live above all of this muck and this stuff that is created from the narcissistic abuse and the divorce and all of the fallout from that. I want to live above it. And every person I've spoken to who's kind of been through this and also I have to tell you from friends who are children of narcissistic, children from, where there's a parent who's been a narcissist, they tell me as well, you have to play the long game. And the long game in this is that you don't ever disrespect the narcissist to your children. You don't do what they've done.
Jon McKenney:You don't stoop to their level. You don't weaponize kids against their other parent. You don't play that game. You live above it. And one day the children will kind of figure it out.
Jon McKenney:And that's, you know, that to me I think is probably the best piece of advice I think I could give personally and it's how I'm trying to live my life, as painful as it may be sometimes to go do that. I'm trying to live my life like that so that I don't, I'm never put in a position where I'm bad mouthing.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I mean I've known you for many years John and I can honestly say you've never ever said anything bad about your ex. You do talk about her in a historical context, you do say the things that happened, but in a factual manner. Never called her names, you've never done any of that, and you and I are friends and you could easily do that with me. And so I think you're absolutely right. You get to practice healthy parenting on your own and show this to your child.
Padideh Jafari:So I always tell my client, you have to be the stable parent. And what does that mean? Do not talk ill about your ex. Show up for your child, whether they want you to show up or not, right? Because children don't get a say in that necessarily.
Padideh Jafari:Obviously, when they get to be adults, they have some say in that. But show up for your child. Do not take your anger of what the ex did to you on your child, because it's very easy to do that, like to transfer that. But do not do that. Be the most stable parent that you can be.
Padideh Jafari:Take online classes. There's lots of, in California, there's lots of online parenting classes. There's actually, like, three that I can think of just at the top of my head. Read books, watch YouTube videos. How can you be the most stable parent?
Padideh Jafari:Because guess what? Your child is not only going to need that as they're growing up, but when they become adults and they come back to you and say, What happened? You're going to be able to explain this in such a way where you're not blaming again, you're not blaming the narcissist. And I can give you a very raw picture of this. And again, I know from the very first episode, we said that we were going to be very raw and real with our listeners.
Jon McKenney:It's been that.
Padideh Jafari:And I had a situation, it was two and a half years ago when I married my husband. We got off the wedding, the whole wedding weekend. Our oldest son was with us and he came to me and he said, I need to talk to you about something. And I'm, you know, brand new stepmom, but I've been in his life for five years. So, you know, and he's 25.
Padideh Jafari:So we were like friends. And I said, okay, you know, what is it? And he said, I think my mom's a narcissist. And I literally, like, it felt like somebody punched me in the stomach because I was not expecting this type of dialogue, right? And I said, Why do you say that?
Padideh Jafari:And he literally went and named as if he had read something and he said, She's always the victim. She's always blaming others. She's continually blaming dad even eight years after their divorce. Is And dad's so he literally went and listed him. And I promise you, as God is my witness, I never said the word narcissist.
Padideh Jafari:I'd clearly never said it about their mom. I'd never said the word, ever. And my step kids don't follow me on social media. It was just literally he had done his research and that was an opportunity where I could have commiserated with him. Right.
Padideh Jafari:I could have said, you know what? You're absolutely right. I'm so glad you figured this out. Like, let's cheers and and and, like, bad mouth your mom now. And I had everything in my spirit was, like, crying out not to do that.
Padideh Jafari:And I literally said, okay. I understand what you're saying. I cannot confirm this or deny this. You continue to do your research, but let's talk about something else. Like, let's talk about the wedding.
Padideh Jafari:Like, what was your favorite part about the wedding? And he had actually said a speech at our wedding that made the entire you know, that everybody cry. And so he said that he had never seen his dad happier in all of the years of his life, which, you know, made everybody cry. But listen, here's the thing, you cannot commiserate with your child. You cannot when they come back to you and they said, you know, Mom or Dad has done this, have they done this, are they a narcissist, This is not an opportunity to unload on your child.
Padideh Jafari:You have to protect your child at all costs and you have to say, we're not going to discuss this.
Jon McKenney:Well you have to be the parent, right? Because ultimately the narcissists are not parents. And pouring your emotional baggage into your child is not good parenting. They're your children. There are some things that shouldn't ever be communicated to your children.
Jon McKenney:Issues of marriage and things like that, you know, they should never be communicated. So, I mean, you handle that so well.
Padideh Jafari:Thank you. I really, like I said, it was like a spiritual moment where I was so excited to be, you know, his stepmom and be like the cool, you know, I want to be the cool stepmom, right? But this is not the time to do that. And it was really, I had to set that boundary that I had no voice and no ears for him to speak ill of his mother. And here's the thing, a child only has one biological father and one biological mother.
Padideh Jafari:And so that's it, right? They can have step parents, stepmoms, stepdad, aunts, uncles, the whole village, the whole tribe. But they really only have one biological parent. And so you want to protect them as much as possible because if the child on their own figures out that one of their parents is a narcissist, this is not an opportunity for you to be excited because you know what the child's going to do? They're going to go in a rabbit hole of what that means.
Padideh Jafari:And they're gonna figure out that they were alienated from their innocent parent. And that's the relationship that this boy now has with his father where he, you know, he lives in Colorado. So we go out to see him. He's coming out to see us in two weeks with his girlfriend. Like he's cultivating this better, healthier relationship with his father because he knows what happened.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, he's 25. He's figured this out. And I always tell you, John, that your children will figure this out. And you just have to be a parent first, and you have to be a strong parent and just continue, I don't know what people are listening, if they're, you know, praying to God, going to church, listening to their, you know, rabbi, they need to have a strong faith because their child will come back. And I can guarantee that.
Jon McKenney:You know, it's interesting. You bring up something, think, if I can kind of say it, Right? You you give them the freedom to figure this stuff out for themselves without you manipulating the situation. That's what you're saying here I think. Is that correct?
Jon McKenney:Would that be right? Because it seems like such an important piece of this thing because when you're victimized by a narcissist, right? Like you said, you know, we're sitting there at the wedding, like every piece of you wants to go say, well, they figure it out and you want to jump on that bandwagon and every piece of you wants to go, well, yes, here I am thrilled because you finally figured it out. Your ex spouse is a narcissist. Now the kid understands, let's commiserate but this isn't a place for that.
Jon McKenney:You allow them the freedom to go figure this stuff out and give them the time to go figure it out and you be the good parent the whole way and let them discover it for themselves. I think that's a piece of this that's so important because I certainly understand the want to go vindicate yourself to your children to have those kinds of conversations because they don't understand this. And there's really no way for them to go back and understand it either because they weren't there in the individual conversations. So it's kind of he said, she said to you to the kids. 100%.
Jon McKenney:You when you give them the freedom to go discover this, and they do, there's got, and they get to that place, that's where I think they're, they, and not only does it do this, not only does it put them in a place of drawing, wanting to draw close to you, but it also help, they also realize the manipulation in the past and it affects their relationship with the, the narcissist ex. And that's exactly the story I've heard from the children of narcissistic abuse where the parents have, the victims have walked it well. They figure out one day that they've been emotionally manipulated against somebody, against this other parent who should be and hold a very significant role in their lives And they come back and their hearts are drawn back to that person.
Padideh Jafari:Right, I mean, he basically figured out that he was a pawn in his mother's game of alienating his father. So you need to, a parent, just protect him. Yeah, let him speak, okay? But you don't also want him to know that, yes, this is true. Like, what good parent wants their child to know that, yes, your mom or your father is a narcissist?
Padideh Jafari:Because if you really are like that, you're not a good parent, in my opinion, because your job is to protect your child. So if I sit there and commiserate with him and just let him validate everything I've been told by my husband, who by the way is the best father, what does that do? It's like, okay, yeah, it might make me feel good, but it's gonna make him feel worse because it's like, oh, now my stepmom knows this too?
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:So he actually, during that conversation asked me, can I read some of the documents from my parents' divorce? Can you get that for me?
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Padideh Jafari:It was like this urgency. I said, Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And I said, And even if you can get that because that's public information, I said, Please promise me that you will not search for that information. I said, Because it's irrelevant.
Padideh Jafari:What happened in the past happened.
Jon McKenney:Well, it's kind none of their business too, right? Because you don't want them having to go feel like they were a part of that in some kind of way either.
Padideh Jafari:Right, and so I just said, Don't search for that. I said, Let's just continue to cultivate the great relationship we have. I said, Good You have his new step mommy, and he laughed, actually I say step monster, and it makes all three of the boys Every time I go, Okay, the step monster is here, they laugh because I literally treat these children like they're a feather. I always tell my husband, they're like a feather. They can't even fall to the ground.
Padideh Jafari:I literally treat them like they walk on water, okay? But the point of it is that just continue to be I mean, we know victims of narcissistic abuse, what are they? They're usually very empathetic. They're good people, they don't lie. Just continue to be that, which is what you've been all this time, John, and your child will come back.
Padideh Jafari:Just have faith that your child will come back to you.
Jon McKenney:Yep. I'm waiting on that and I'm trusting in that. You know, one of the other thoughts I have before we kind of, I know our time is kind of winding down here, but there are a group of people out there who are staying in relationship with a narcissist, perhaps staying married even for the sake of the children. Like they would divorce if it weren't for the kids. And I get asked a lot about that.
Jon McKenney:Should I leave now? Do I leave the kids in with the X? And I personally I waited till my kids were out of high school and did that intentionally because I wanted to give them a home life where they had a sane parent, quite honestly a healthy parent, right up to the end. And I understand if people decide they want to go do that, you know, I think that's right. At the same time it muddies parenting.
Jon McKenney:When I'm with my kid now, all they have is me and healthy parenting and that's what I give. And it allows her to go do her thing and for them to kind of armchair quarterback that without me, without my protection over it. So I don't know that helping, I don't know that it helps necessarily to stay in a situation like that. If you can afford it, maybe the thing to do is to create that environment of duality where the kids have a healthy place to go to. Even if they're constantly speaking badly about you and all that, it's still a healthy place.
Jon McKenney:They'll figure it out in time. So consider that as well. Think about it if you're in that place. I know that there are many who just want keep it together until then. But understand the places where your kids are being manipulated.
Jon McKenney:If you're married right now to a narcissist, look at some of these tactics, disrespect, triangulation, particularly disrespect. So insidious and flies underneath the radar, creating where the narcissists have created an inappropriate dependence on the children or confiding in them. That's again emotionally incestuous relationship. Look for those kinds of things because are the building blocks of parental alienation and I miss them. So you be smarter than me figure that out, upfront.
Jon McKenney:So look for those kinds of things, begin to defend against them, have direct conversation with your children, and again be patient in them returning to you as hard as that really is. Be the good parent, be patient, don't bad mouth your ex. Good conversation today, Padilla. I could have gone on. Parental alienation too.
Jon McKenney:Have done this for a while.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, and we might talk about this more as we get comments from our audience. If they want to hear more about this and strategies of what they can do as a healthy parent, please let us know in the comments of our show. But great seeing you, John, and
Jon McKenney:You too, as always.
Padideh Jafari:See you again next week.
Jon McKenney:Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKinney and Parental Alienation.
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Voiceover:The information presented is for general information purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in San Diego, California and Tijuana Baja, California. Olas Media is an IVC media company.
Jon McKenney:Olas Media.