Grazing Grass Podcast : Sharing Stories of Regenerative Ag

Is it possible to revolutionize your ranching practices with minimal labor and maximum efficiency? Join us as we explore the journey of a dedicated grass management enthusiast who expanded a custom grazing operation to 3,000 head with processes so simple, even a 12-year-old could manage them. We'll share stories of overcoming water shortages, the importance of community support within the Grazing Grass Facebook group, and how a newly developed grazing chart in Google Sheets can be a game-changer for managing graze and rest periods effectively.

In this episode, we dive into the holistic approach to grazing management that brings together various livestock species into one harmonious mob. By combining cattle, ewes, lambs, hogs, and horses, labor is significantly reduced, and soil health is enhanced. We'll discuss strategies like installing pipelines to eliminate water hauling and creating permanent paddocks for easier livestock movement. Discover the critical concept of grazing in the "sweet spot" and why overly long rest periods can be detrimental to grass productivity.

We also explore specific grazing techniques, adjusting for environmental conditions, and the role of educational resources in enhancing grazing practices. Tom Krawiec shares his insights on effective strip grazing, winter grazing, and stockpile management in harsh climates. Learn how to balance forage quality and volume, the benefits of bale grazing, and practical adjustments for extreme weather. Tune in for an episode filled with valuable insights and practical advice that can transform your grazing management practices, reduce labor, and improve soil health.

Links Mentioned in the Episode:
Simply Ranching

Visit our Sponsors:
Noble Research Institute
Kencove Farm Fence

What is Grazing Grass Podcast : Sharing Stories of Regenerative Ag?

The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.

This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?

Welcome to the grazing
grass podcast episode 128.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
do not violate the graze

period or the recovery period

You're listening to the grazing grass,
podcast, sharing information and stories

of grass-based livestock production
utilizing regenerative practices.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage.

Cal: You're growing more than grass.

You're growing a healthier
ecosystem to help your cattle

thrive in their environment.

You're growing your livelihood by
increasing your carrying capacity

and reducing your operating costs.

You're growing stronger communities
and a legacy to last generations.

The grazing management
decisions you make today.

impact everything from the soil beneath
your feet to the community all around you.

That's why the Noble Research
Institute created their Essentials

of Regenerative Grazing course to
teach ranchers like you easy to follow

techniques to quickly assess your forage
production and infrastructure capacity.

In order to begin
grazing more efficiently.

Together, they can help you grow
not only a healthier operation,

but a legacy that lasts.

Learn more on their website at noble.

org slash grazing.

It's n o b l e dot org
forward slash grazing.

On today's show.

We have Tom Krawiec of
Ranching like a 12 year old.

If you've read his book.

Great conversation today.

If you haven't.

Uh, I'll tell you more
about his book on Friday.

So stay tuned for that episode.

But Tom talks about his journey while
he's doing what he's been doing.

And we talked a little bit about
reducing labor on the the farm,

which is so very important.

It's a really good episode.

And I think you'll enjoy it.

Before we get started 10
seconds about my farm.

First off.

We talk a lot about just getting started.

. But, but to get started, you got to
make sure you got that infrastructure

in place, rather that includes fencing
or watering or both most likely.

However, you've gotta be profitable.

You've gotta be the farm's
gotta be sustainable.

So if you sink a lot of money in.

Got to be careful about that?

Well, the reason I bring up that
stuff, watering infrastructure

is my problem this week.

Uh, we've had a decent amount of rain.

It's it's came in timely.

Um, timely arrivals, I guess,
would be the right word.

But it's been really nice except
one of my lease properties.

The ponds have gotten so low.

Now the cows are having to step through
our weighed mud to get in there and drink.

I know.

I really shouldn't be watering out of
those ponds, but I don't have watering

infrastructure on those places yet.

And to be honest, to get watering
the infrastructure, there, there

is not rural water along the road.

Uh, well would be one option or, uh,
probably the option I'll go with.

I need to get those ponds redug.

Get them redug, then I can put a solar
water pump in and put some water line.

Of course it's leased land.

So you don't want to sink too
much into infrastructure depending

upon the duration of your lease.

So I'm bringing those cows.

I will probably load them up.

Uh, today or tomorrow.

Move, move them back to another property.

I have that doesn't have water issues.

Uh, two years ago, this is 24 and 22.

Had the same problem on two properties.

Uh, water.

Uh, got so low.

I couldn't water them over there
causes a little bit of a issue.

However I did anticipate
that maybe being an issue.

So I've been grazing over there longer.

Rather than pulling them off there
because I thought, well, if I get low

in water, I can go to the other place.

So it's had a longer rest.

Except I did clip it for the sericea.

Mysia that was getting out of control.

So.

Lots of, uh, management.

We'll see how that goes.

But, um, I will be moving
those cows shortly.

For 10 seconds about the podcast.

I talked to a gentleman other day
about the grazing grass community.

And if you're not familiar with
the grazing grass community,

it is our Facebook group,
did not start it on Facebook.

That was not the plan.

But Facebook is an easy
place for most people get to.

So we built it on Facebook.

I have a problem with Facebook groups.

I'll just be honest.

Most of the time, discussions turn into
arguments, and nothing gets resolved.

The real question at hand never
gets answered because people are

arguing about something else.

I say that, but Facebook groups are
one of my favorite parts of Facebook.

There is a lot of valuable information.

Anyway, I was talking
to individual other day.

And he commented about the
grazing grass community.

And if you're not part of
it, go join us on Facebook.

Do a search for grazing grass community.

And he says.

Why is everyone so nice
and so helpful there?

Y, I don't have a good answer.

I just know this community is helpful.

This community is supportive.

And we're there for each other.

And I just want to say, thank you.

Thank you to those individuals
they're sharing about their

experiences answering to help others.

I am so glad to be part of a community
that's supportive and helpful like that.

So, thank you.

Second thing.

Later today we talk in the
podcast about grazing charts.

And I mentioned during the
episode, I've wanted to use a

grazing chart, but I haven't.

Uh, I've looked at the online version.

I've looked about
ordering a paper version.

But nothing really worked for me.

I prefer it to be technology-based,
but at the same time, I want

to be able to see enough of it.

I don't know, it's a quandary.

However, after talking to Tom.

And how much he thinks you
should be using a grazing chart.

So you can respect your grace period
and respect your risks, period.

Cause I'll be honest.

I don't respect a rest period.

I just let my.

Rest my paddocks or pasture's
rest as much as possible.

But he makes the case for what the
rest period should be in his book.

Um, so I've sat down and
I've worked on Google sheets.

I love spreadsheets.

So I put together a grazing chart.

It's not, not great.

It's very basic.

I know I'm leaving lots of stuff out.

That.

A real grazing chart would have,
but it's, it's working for me

so I can keep track of that.

While it's not there yet.

I will share it to grazing grass insiders.

So if you want to play with it and
see, and I can answer questions.

I tried to make it fairly simple.

It's easy for me to use.

I see three months at a time.

It's working out pretty good.

Uh, if you want access to
that, It will be at the grazing

grass insiders under downloads.

Now again, don't go there
today looking for it.

I was ready to put it out today,
but I noticed a calculation error.

So I have to fix that
before I push, push it out.

And I'm sure once it's there
there'll be some errors on it and

stuff, but we can, we can build
this if it's a useful tool for you.

Wonderful.

If it's not, uh, it's
working for me currently.

And I say working for
me for the past 24 days.

So.

not a lot of experience with it,
but I am liking where it's going.

Anyway, I've talked way too much today
and we have a very good episode for you.

So let's get past all that.

And let's talk to Tom.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Tom, we want to
welcome you to the Grazing Grass podcast.

We're excited you're here today.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
You're excited with every guest you have.

So, you must be just thrilled with me.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: I I love just
getting to talk to all these wonderful

people out there doing great things.

And just to highlight some of them,
because some of them aren't highlighted.

Some of them have a book but others,
but get the word out about people.

It does make me very excited.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah.

Well, and you know what?

I find it it just gets my me
thinking in a different way.

It's Why not try that and just put on
someone else's cap for a little bit

and you get to listen for an hour.

Huh.

I never thought of it that way.

Hey?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: It is great.

Well, Tom, to get started,
tell us a little bit about

yourself and your operation.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay.

Well, you know what?

I I grew up in Oil Patch.

I grew up in an oil town.

My parents had a trucking company,
oil field trucking company.

But my heart wasn't there.

My heart was with my relatives.

Both of my parents grew up on farms.

So I got to spend a lot of time
in the summers on on relatives

farms.

And that's where my love was.

Just never had the chance to until I
guess it was really 2000, and I got

hooked up with a gal that her parents
had two quarter sections that they

always rented out, and I just thought,
oh, here's an opportunity, and I met a

guy at work that was telling me about
this course called Holistic Management,

so I took that.

That's what my wife at that time,
took holistic management in January of

2000, and then we just started going.

We started direct marketing,
grass fed hog, or pork, lamb

chicken and beef, and eggs.

And we did that for a number of
years, and then we transitioned.

We also had, sorry, we also had 40
cow calf pairs that we custom grazed.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Learn how to custom graze,

well, learn how to graze.

And then yeah, and then took Rancho for
Profit in I think it was 2003, first time.

And then, yeah, I think it
was 2005 we both took it.

And then we joined EL for a
few years, executive link.

Yeah, and then Yeah, and then expanded
to, the custard grazing operation.

We ended up having renting 5, 500
acres and running 3, 000 yearlings in

summer with one or two summer students.

That was it.

And yeah, and then from there a a
transition into ranch management.

And now, I I guess the last time I was
managing grass was 2001, or sorry 2021.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah.

And then that was just ranch managing.

I need to get something back
for myself and do my own thing.

So that's what I'm looking at right now.

Haven't been able to find a ranch,
but I just decided to actually, a few

weeks ago, I'm just going to start.

I started out with 373 acres
and six to seven years, I had

5, 500 acres and 3000 heads.

So I'm just going to do it again.

Yeah.

what happened was my buddy
rolled his quad this spring

and he broke four ribs, so I was
just available and I went and helped

him out for six weeks and it was
exhausting because he's not set up.

Although he has my book, he hasn't read
my book and he's known, we've known

each other for 20 years, but he's a hard
sell on doing things simple and easy.

He's a very smart guy, and I think
that's part of it but anyways,

it was a big eye opener to him.

He would have been in a lot of trouble had
I not been able to if I wasn't available.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: yeah, that was a

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
he had just started calving,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: him

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
yeah,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253:
able to go over and help him.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
He had just started calving, and

when I got there, the calves were
just starting to scour, and I just,

like, I've never had to deal with
scours, I've been so scared of it.

But I just, the skills that
I've gained over, 20 some

years I just started doing it.

I just, like the next day I
had the cows onto fresh ground

as an example.

Yeah.

And it was although it was good
for him, it was good for me too

to realize I gotta step up and
get, I gotta find some land and

get back ranching.

'cause I'm working in the oil patch
right now and I'm not enjoying it.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
It's just a place to make money.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
yeah.

So that's what I'm I expect, I've
already put some feelers out, so I

expect next summer I will be, I'll be
back ranching, and yeah, I'll be happy.

But, one thing about this I did have
the opportunity to write my book,

and I think had I not been ranching,
or, sorry, had I still been ranching,

I would not have had the opportunity
to write the book because the job

that I had in the oil field, I I was
working nights, and I was all by myself.

And I had very little to do, so I just
wrote my book, and that's how it got done.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Well, I kick
around the idea of writing a book and

I'll be honest, it won't be near as
good as yours or informative as yours.

But I love that idea.

But then I think about the
time and effort to do it.

Writing a book is, you just don't
sit down and you have a book.

There's a lot to it, and it takes
a large amount of time to do it.

So it's impressive you put together a
book, but sounds like working back in

the oil field gave you the opportunity
or the time to be able to do that.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah, I went to, if I was I was at

home all the time, I would not have
had the motivation, I know that.

Cause there's too many distractions, and

yeah.

And you know what, writing a book, yeah,
it's a lot of work, and I'm proud of it.

But at the end of the day, it was just
sitting down and writing a couple pages.

Even if I just sat

down and wrote a couple pages a day,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
that's two pages closer.

did take me two, two years from
the first time I started writing

till it got out on Amazon.

It was two years.

So,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah.

Well, very good.

I was telling you before we
started recording, I'd purchased

your book last January.

And when we first made contact,
I was thinking, yeah, I read

that last January, I enjoyed it.

And then I start going through my books,
and I'm like, and I got a few books

then, because I'm a terrible book buyer.

Or maybe I worded that wrong.

I'm a really good book buyer.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252: A

terrible reader?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: well,
actually, I read a fair amount.

I've read Two and a half books this week.

So I

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Holy crap!

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: But
I buy faster than I can read.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: book, so
when I went and pulled your book, I'm

like, oh, I haven't read this book.

So that's one of the
books I read this week.

Past two days, I sat down and read it.

I really enjoyed it.

I wish I'd read it as soon
as I got it, even though

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
I know

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: months ago.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
that's embarrassing that you didn't.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: I know, right?

Yes, but I really enjoyed it.

So you sit down to write it.

And you start thinking about all this.

What was that process to get it out?

Was the thinking just to
outline the way you do things?

Did your process go in another way?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay, well I'm going to be very

I'm just gonna be very blunt.

I'll tell you.

So what happened was grass
management was my passion.

I don't know why but I
just fell in love with it.

And so then, and I learned quite
a, I learned a lot of things.

And then it was about year five.

Definitely five.

By year six, I definitely knew
that I was not improving the soil.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: ha.

Oh yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah.

Okay.

I was doing four times better than in
terms of grazing than people around me.

And, but when I was really looking at it,
I was not, I had hit a plateau and I was

thinking, huh, there's something here.

And I wasn't able to talk to ask
anybody who knew how to get past that.

And

then I started to realize
they didn't know either.

And here I was writing articles,
I was getting invited to

talk to, different places.

And I felt like a hypocrite
because I didn't really know.

And that's when I stopped.

And I

stopped reading.

I stopped reading and I just
went and stayed on the ranch and

I learned what I was missing.

And Yeah, and then I was happy.

I found it.

And then what happened was I was reading
I was reading, started reading again.

And then these people, like there's
people writing and they didn't have an

experience or, very little experience.

And I thought, before you start
saying that you should have

a little bit more experience.

And so

anyways, that's why I start, I started

writing articles again.

And yeah, and then the book came about.

So that was it.

And it's just my ideas
and it's my experiences.

And I know that, everybody doesn't
agree with what I say, but I

have the numbers to back me up.

And that it's the numbers that I have.

But the big thing that I found
was I talk about that a lot.

It's Heather and Tiffany.

The, while they were 12, 12 and
13 or 12 and 11, I can't remember.

Twelve and eleven when they first,
the first summer that they came out.

And I had to make things simple for them.

Like, even a pipe wrench,
24 inch pipe wrench.

You can buy an aluminum one
or you can buy the steel one.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
steel one is much heavier.

So why not just buy the, yes, it's
more expensive, but they're not

going to balk as much about using it.

And it's just, once I got things set
up that way, that it was very easy.

Then I was able to expand and
we, it was much easier to expand

the custom grazing operation.

So, in no time at all, we went
we were at a 3000 head and it was

just like, how did that happen?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252: And
we only had one or two summer students.

Realistically, we had between the two
of us, we had six hours of work a day.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
So, with that many animals

based on the template.

So, we had six hours of
work, so we'd get up.

We usually would stay up late,
go to the lake, or play poker

with the neighbours or something.

So, we wouldn't get up too early.

So, but we'd leave the house about
nine o'clock, nine thirty, or sorry,

ten o'clock, nine thirty, ten o'clock.

And then, we'd each go move a herd.

We'd be back, about noon, we'd
have an hour and a half lunch.

And then we'd head out again.

And then we'd be back, between 4.

30 and 5.

30.

And that was our day.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Time to do
it for a tenth of that many cattle,

or even a five percent of that.

So, what really made that difference
so you were able to do it so quickly?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
you know what, honestly, I just, I had

to ask myself, can a 12 year old do this?

That, honestly, Kel, that's
all that I had to do.

And it was just Heather and Tiffany.

And I had to think, can they do it?

So I just started asking myself
can a 12 year old do this?

And I still do that
today in everything I do.

I ask myself, can a 12 year old do this?

And if they can't, I change
it, or I stop doing it.

And then, and it's amazing, like you can,
your life just becomes so simplified.

And then, like I said,
we were able to expand,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Rapidly, and it's not a big deal.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: I
know when I think about my

own farm and what I'm doing.

So we have here my dad's farm and mine.

Mine's on lease land,
dad's on land he owns.

We have semi permanent paddocks.

We open the gate, cows,
I move them that way.

Super easy.

My cows, I go over and I
string poly braid every day.

And do it.

It doesn't take too long.

And I've thought about, I've thought, I
need to put up some semi permanent fences

to create me some paddocks that, that
gives me a little bit, or gives me the

ability to quickly go over and do that.

But then I think, oh, Greg Judy talks
about, he did that early on and he

pulled all those out because he felt
like he could gain greater flexibility.

But, as

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Can I stop you right there?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: yes you can.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay.

Cause I know exactly what
you're talking about.

Okay.

It was not Greg who said
that it was his his interns

who said, talked him into that.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, that's right.

You're right.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah.

So, but Greg is in an interesting
different situation than the rest of us.

Greg has a reputation.

And his reputation is long enough and
he's, his knowledge is wise enough.

He has people clambering
to come and be his,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
not apprentice, but his intern.

Okay.

So he has that workforce.

If he did not have that workforce,
those fences would be there.

Do you take my, do you take my point?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yeah.

I agree.

And

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
So the, you have the flexibility,

but you have to give up something.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Right.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
So now you're going to have to pay

for that flexibility with labor.

So are you going to pay for it, or are you
going to be like Greg and you have interns

that are, wanted to come to your place?

So there you go.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah
and that's an excellent point.

And when I think about it, I have, I
told my wife, I've got numerous notebooks

here where I've drawn out those, these
paddocks that I'm going to put up.

And then when I get time, I hear
that about Greg's interns talking

him into it, and he talks about
how he can manage it better.

That, it causes me to hesitate.

In reading your book, you really talk
about those paddocks and what they do for

you on, time management, saving your time.

You're front loading that
and getting those up.

So then when you go to do your move, it's
just a matter of opening the gate and

getting the animals to the next paddock.

But there's another thing.

You're not focused on daily moves.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Correct.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: And
can you explain to our audience

a little bit why that is?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay, well there's

something that gets missed.

This, I know the daily moves are
designed to get ultra high stock density.

Okay.

Now again, my belief is we need
to get our labor down first.

Because if we don't get our labor
down, we're going to get burnt

out and we're going to quit.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay, our kids are going to be resentful.

So we got to get our labor down first.

Once we have that, then we can
start doing these other things.

But they're down the road.

Okay,

so if we want to get to, don't
start moving out every day.

Get the labor down, but what I
have seen it's a whole system.

So what I have seen is, once you
put together animal behavior,

so you get the animals to start
acting, behaving as a herd.

As a mob,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
you get that ultra high density without

any fencing, because they move that way.

Bob Kinford just did a post on he taught
a course in, in Saskatchewan and he was

talking about there's a hundred heifers
there, and that's the way that they moved.

And that's

my experience.

And it's not just, I've had,
like on the cover, you've

noticed the cover of my book?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252: Yes.

Okay.

So there's, in that mob there, there's
200, head of cattle, different classes.

There's 350 ewes and about another, what,
three or four hundred lambs in there.

There's 80 hogs and about 20, 25 horses.

Every one of those animals
was part of the mob.

And they knew that.

And once I got them all trained
to do that, it was, it's amazing.

And not only that, they
all just stuck together.

Not only that, what they did
for the soil was phenomenal.

I've always been able to grow great grass,
but I'd never saw anything like this.

And that got me to thinking
there's a lot of species grazing.

should be the same as a
polyculture with cropping.

But we don't normally don't,
very few people do that.

They have, they have a leader follower

And I've actually done that.

I started out doing that and
you know what it, the amount of

labor it took, it was too much.

And that was the first thing
I did to cut down our labor.

I put the animals all together.

That was the first thing I did.

And the second thing I did we put out
pipeline and stopped hauling water.

Those were

the two biggest biggest labour components
of what we were doing the first two years.

I got rid of those two things and
it was just like a huge relief.

And then we went from I guess the
third thing is what we started

putting up the permanent paddocks.

Yeah, so those three things.

I know people don't want to do that.

They, they they talk about flexibility.

Just like my buddy that
I was, I went to CAV for.

And I've been after this one pasture.

I said, why don't you split
that up into four pieces?

Long strips, and then
you have fresh ground.

Yeah, but it's flexible.

I said, frick Mike,
you're frickin exhausted.

Who

cares about flexibility?

Get your labor down.

Once

you have some, because I was
exhausted and that's all I was doing.

And then he has two kids
to chase around to sports.

He's a 4 H leader.

He's a chairman of Forge Association Board
and then he has a little side business.

And he's trying to do all
this and you can't do it

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: oh, yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
without beating yourself up.

And then you think you're
a failure and it's just not

caducive for good mental health.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: now.

I completely agree.

And a lot of times whenever I'm talking
to someone and we talk about daily moves,

they're like, well, how much, well, just
for instance, my dad, he is so against it.

I hate to say it that way.

He doesn't see the benefit.

He's like, you just put
too much labor into it.

I have to agree, I spend more time moving
my cows than I do moving my dad's cows

because I open a gate and they go through.

But one thing, so you talked
about a couple things there to

lower that labor requirement.

You put all your species together
in one mob to graze them.

You got your watering infrastructure
down, which watering, watering

infrastructure is always a limiting
factor because I've yet to see a farm

where that's not a limiting factor.

I'm sure they're out there,
but I've not seen it yet.

And then you put in these permanent
paddocks and putting in permanent paddocks

allow you to just open a gate, but how did
you determine the size for those paddocks?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
I didn't.

It's not important.

When you have, it's not important.

The, again, I don't want to, I don't
want to go to the grass management

part but, I want to keep the grass
vegetative and I call it grazing in

the sweet spot and I honestly think
that's the key and that's how we're

going to make it to this other level.

of grazing.

Yeah, and that we don't know about yet.

I've seen it but generally I don't
think we've seen it, and so that's

why people are balking about it.

And you know what, I actually don't care.

I just want to go and do it myself because
there's things that I haven't done yet.

But the, so the size doesn't matter.

It has to do with timing.

Okay, and as long as you're getting around
and you're getting that grass clipped.

I call it in the sweet spot.

It doesn't matter.

Some products you're going to be there
for one day, some days you're going

to be two days, some days, three days,
but you don't go past the graze period.

There's the graze period.

Do you remember me talking
about that in the book?

There's two things.

Okay.

There's two things.

Don't violate the rest period and
don't violate the graze period.

You can violate the rest period by
being too short or too long and you

get the basically the same result in
my experience and it's very easy to

go have your rest period too long.

Like just right now, I'm seeing
lots of pictures of people showing

these pictures of their beautiful
grass, it's five feet tall and it's

just like, I just shudder when I

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Like, Andre Vosim talks talked about

that his his master's and PhD students
were sitting up in the tower, calculating

how long it took a cow to take a bite.

Those tall grasses, they
have to ball that up.

It takes a long time for them

to ball that up.

And then your nutrition
decreases as you get there.

So, I see all those pictures
right now and I'm just like,

oh, shit, they're way too late.

But

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Anyways, I'm not sure if I answered

your question or not but again, I don't,
it's not the size, it's the timing.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: So, and you
mentioned two, two sets of times there,

your grazing period and your rest period.

So how do you know what those are?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay.

But really to get there, to
get to that level, you have to

get your, have your labor down.

So,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: one, one thing
just on the labor part, in the back

of your book, you have your Ranching
Hacks, just a couple pages of them

and one of them is one that we do that.

I love that.

I don't know why more people don't.

I tell people I'm a efficient farmer
and you understand efficient farmer

is a lazy farmer with good pr.

So I'm an efficient farmer.

So if I.

Like if we have some calves not doing
very good, I love your suggestion

in the book that you just sort those
off and leave them pinned up and the

next morning you go out there and
their moms will be across the fence

from them and you get their moms in.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
yeah, it's

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253:
Yeah, I love those types of

things that reduce the labor.

You're not trying to sort all your
cows and introduce more stress.

You're doing something very simple,
sorting out those particular calves,

then you're letting nature take over
and those moms come up there and you

just get them back in the next day.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
You bet.

It's just like, in the spring when you're
calving, there's a system called the

Sandhills method Where you sort off pears.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah, I don't agree with that.

Like I've been to I think
three places that do that.

The amount of stress when they're
sorting off pears is crazy.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Why not just move the whole bunch?

Then they're all onto fresh ground.

I've been doing that since 2005
because I've been scared of scours.

Like past, I've just been, Like when I
went this spring and I saw the calves

are starting to scour, I just like, holy
shit, what am I, got myself into, but I

just got them on fresh ground and every
three or four days, I just moved the

whole works onto fresh ground and the cool
thing about it is they learn how to move.

you don't have, you don't
have abandoned calves.

You have these little calves
that, oh, it's time to go.

And the momma goes and picks
them up, and so you get.

You're able to do that.

You get them trained right off the bat.

You, to manage your grass.

Cause you get on there,
clip it, and get going.

And, then you you're on clean ground.

For health purposes, so.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
So I better answer this question

quick about the graze period and the

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, okay.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
okay.

so.

What I discovered by luck just trial
and error, was that in the latitude

of Athabasca, Okay, in Alberta,
at that latitude, but this is just

an example, and it's just for that
latitude at that, at the first rotation.

The graze period is about 36 days.

Okay, and that has been consistent
for since my first time in 2000,

it just, it's, I figured that out.

And that's just an example.

That's not going to be your area.

But then I, so what that means is the way
and then I found out the graze period,

I was doing a strip grazing, okay,
because that's what I was, I started

out doing I went, we went to holistic
management, that's what we're supposed to

do is strip graze to get animal impact.

So that's what I started out doing, and
then I was on this paddock and I figured,

oh, they, this herd, I know 250 cow,
or cow calf pairs there and I figured

they should be there for five days.

So I was stripping them up
along this long narrow paddock.

Well, day four I moved them
into the next strip and then

they had to walk back for water.

As they came back they stopped
in that where that first strip

was and they never went back.

And so that told me that the new growth,
there was enough new growth by day three

at that time of year, At that latitude,
by day four, there's enough growth.

So I cannot be there
longer than three days.

I have to be moving on day four.

Otherwise, there's
going to be overgrazing.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: so so you're
keeping them in that paddock for that

graze period and then you're moving
on and you calculate that grazing

period in your example to be three
days because on day four, they're

going back and grazing new growth.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Exactly.

Yeah.

And again, I've had a few people ask
me about, well, 35 days is enough.

No, this was just an example.

Like, what I put in my book, I thought
I made it clear, but obviously I didn't.

It's just an example of that
latitude at that time of year.

So in 2021, we had I was grazing in
this, at this area as well, and we

had extreme heat and extreme dry.

Well, our graze period went to six days.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
I thought the grass had gone dormant,

but I did that strip test, and by day
six, they stopped in the first strip.

So the grass did stop growing,
it just slowed right down.

And so then, that's what I did.

I just changed my I was able to change
my recovery period, or my graze period,

and that adjusted my recovery period.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Because each time you stay an

extra day in that gray, in that
paddock, you have what, 13 paddocks,

well then that's 13 extra days.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: One more
question on that graze period.

Before we go back and talk a little
bit more about your mob grazing.

You said there, grass had slowed
down, so you did another test to

find out how long the graze period
should be, and that's six days.

How

often are you checking to see
how long that graze period is?

Do you just do it when you see a change

or how do you determine that?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Just when there's a big change.

Yeah, just when there's a big change.

Now a part of that is because I have
So, I know over, the course of 24 years,

I know what the recovery period is.

But if like in 2000 or in 21,
that was a huge change and it was

something I hadn't experienced before.

So now I have to go and check

my reference.

Yeah.

And then the other thing that goes along
with that is I stumbled on this idea

of 13 paddocks and it was just by luck.

I I took over property and
there were 13 paddocks.

So I did my grazing chart
for the first rotation.

Then we're getting close
to the second rotation.

I go do the, my grazing chart
again, and it all worked out.

And I was just like, huh?

So I started looking at this and,
oh my gosh, 13 is the magic number.

If I use the graze period, and I just
assume that we have 13 paddocks, then I

can figure out what a recovery period is.

Because in holistic management, you
start out with a recovery period.

But we don't necessarily know
what the recovery period is.

We're guessing on the

recovery period.

Okay.

Here I'm, what I'm doing is I'm
starting out with the graze period.

I can, the cattle tell me
what the graze period is.

And then I have this formula
with, based on 13 paddocks.

Now I can figure out my recovery period.

So I've tested that out about,
probably 7 different times.

With the 13 paddocks and

it works every time.

It works every time.

It doesn't work, like
if you had 20 paddocks.

It doesn't work.

I don't know, somehow it works with 13.

Because if you have 20 paddocks,
and your graze period is, 3 days,

well then, the next thing you
know, you're almost at 60 days.

And that's too long.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Right.

Yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
So, I'm not sure if I make that explain

that well, but somehow it just works.

And, that way you don't get a
recovery period that's too long.

Because, once you let grass go into that
stage 3, it has done its job for the year.

And my experience is that you lose
at least 50 percent of possible

production on the like of the regrowth

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

Yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Because it's done its job already so

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: One
thing you mentioned there is

talking about 13 paddocks and
the graze period, rest period.

You mentioned your grazing chart.

Does that, help save time at all?

How do you feel about the grazing chart?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
If you're gonna do a good job It's

a must That's how I feel about it.

I still do it today.

I've did my first one in 2000 and I've
never If I'm grazing I'm using a grazing

chart because you can't keep track
particularly if you have multiple herds,

you can't keep track, and it's very
easy to get fooled by our graziers eye.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Because you think, oh

yeah, that looks good.

Well, you go to your grazing
site, oh, we're already, might

be already at 40 days recovery.

We have to get moving, and
get that grass clipped.

Because it's not going to grow anymore.

It's

done its job.

It's just gonna, it's just gonna flower.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Now, you
mentioned there, Your grazer's eye,

you're going out there looking, but then
you're checking that with the chart.

Are you following the
chart pretty religiously?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252: I'm
following my recovery pretty religiously.

How's

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, okay.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
okay.

So my grazing chart is done in pencil.

And yeah, I do not violate the
graze period or the recovery period.

But yeah, but it doesn't matter
if I say that I'm going to be

on this day of this paddock.

It's not a big day as long as I'm in.

I'm not violating the graze
period or the rest period.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, okay.

Yeah.

And do you are you constructing
that grazing chart with estimations

of when you'll be grazing
somewhere for the whole year?

Are you just in transparency, Tom,
I've not used a grazing chart.

I've seen some.

I've thought I should use them.

I go out there and look at the pasture
and think, okay, here's where we're going.

But reading your book and thinking
about my herd and what I'm doing

with my herd, it's a little bit
easier because the way I rotate them.

And then that's a whole discussion whether
or not you should change it each time.

whatever.

But for my dad's herd, we have these
paddocks in place and I'm moving them.

And I've got to, in fact, I
need to move cattle tomorrow.

And I'm like, where am
I going to take them?

I thought, well, I'm taking them
this way because that looks good.

And then I'm like, oh wait, I
was just there not too long ago.

It's grown back really nicely.

And as I thought about that,
I thought, right there's

where I need a grazing chart.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
I'm not even going to tell you that

you need it, because I've told so many
people and it just goes off deaf ears.

And no, people aren't using it.

And that's the reason that
they have the results they do.

You

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: version?

Or how do you do it?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
know what, I wanted to go electronic,

and so I've tried out some, and for some
reason, I don't know if it's because

I've, I started with paper cause it's
a pain in the ass having to go and

erase all these little marks, right?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
I couldn't find a computer one on the

screen that I can see the whole season.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
So for me sometimes, I need to see that

whole season and I don't know why I
messed around with it one summer with

the electronic and I wasn't able to
get it so I just used the paper one.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: And I
know the, I downloaded, I have an

electronic version of a grazing chart.

But my problem is using it on the screen.

I can only see a portion of it.

And so I was like, no, I'm not doing it.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
And that's what I was doing.

Like I downloaded some from oh I
forget that guy's name, he He gives

a, the, on pasture magazine each
spring he gives the you can order free

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah, I think,

Troy Bishop.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah, you bet.

Good charts, but I couldn't see the
whole, what I need, all of it that I

need to see on my screen.

So anyways, they're good charts
and they're exactly like my

paper charts, just, I don't know.

Anyways, move on.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Well, one
thing I didn't mention about your

book, and this doesn't really relate
to any of this, but we mentioned Troy

Bishop, and we mentioned on pastor.

Even if you don't get anything from your
book, but you just go through and pick

all the resources you mention in the book,
that would be tremendous right there.

You Walt, Higbert?

How do you say his last name?

Higbert?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Oh yeah, Walt I can't remember.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah
him and some others, I have

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
No Whit Hibbard.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, Whit

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
yeah, he's from Montana.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah.

I have those pulled up in tabs
because I wasn't familiar with

him and I pulled it, pulled or
did a search so I can look it up.

But you list a tremendous amount
of resources in your book that if

someone were to just go through it and
go through and get those resources,

that would be an education in itself.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Well, that's where I got my education.

I've heard,

you know what, I talk about it.

I think you might've remembered in the
forward there or wherever I wrote it.

Hardly any of these ideas are mine.

Sure, yeah, there's a
few, but there's very

few that are mine.

And I just, I feel, I, I've been
plagiarized before, and I don't like it.

So, I make a point of,
this wasn't my idea.

This is

who I got it from, and so I
make a point of doing that.

But yeah, I read a lot.

A lot of the I've read a lot of, a pile
of research in the last 20 plus years.

Yeah, it's interesting to me.

Yeah, besides the

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: It's a tremendous
amount of resources in there, besides what

information you're giving that's valuable.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252: I
think a big thing I'm proud of the book.

And a big part of the reason that
I'm proud of the book is a lot of

the stuff that I do is based on
research things that I've heard.

So I went and tested it
out and I kept going.

I'll give you an example.

So you had you had my buddy,
Steve Kenyon on here a while ago.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes, it did.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Steve.

Okay.

So Steve and I have been pretty
close on the same journey.

He is two years ahead of me, but
we've been pretty close on the

same journey, doing the same thing,
custom grazing on leased land.

And so we've gone out, shared a lot
of stuff together, and one thing

that we did was we bale grazing.

That's what you were talking to him about.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah, and I just want to mention, so

Steve and I bale graze the same way in
that intense way, and we figured out

a few years ago that if you grazed 100
cows for 100 days, you could improve

I think it was 13 or 14 acres of land,
of pasture, you could rejuvenate.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah, and then And when we're

talking rejuvenate, we're talking
like a four to six hundred fold

increase in, in grass production.

So, I read this article by Jim Gare.

She wrote it in the, on, in On Pasture.

And it was about all the
nutrients that are a bale of

hay has when you roll it out.

And I was just like, oh, you should
try it and read that article.

It is fascinating.

How many nutrients you're
putting in the soil.

And I thought, oh, but my experience
with rolling out bales has not

been that great for rejuvenation.

And I was just wondering, so
anyways, what I did was I tracked

down a guy that Jim had worked with.

And the guy was raving about
this rolling out bales.

And I said, well, so how much?

Well, he improved the soil, or
the grass production about 70%.

And So 70%.

Now there's something, I like to,
I like results and so I was a bit

surprised that 70 percent because
if you have buggerall and you double

buggerall, you still have buggerall,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
okay?

When we, when our pastures get down to
a certain level, they need a kickstart.

And so that's where you need
a four to six fold increase.

Now that's the difference between
rolling out bales and bale grazing.

For some reason, the bale grazing you get
that four to six hundred percent increase

in one year.

I, like I've documented where
I kept good records and, bale

grazed one year we had 46.

I might have used that example
in the book too, I'm not sure.

Yeah, we had 46 stock days per acre
that we grazed the year before.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
We ba we

bale grazed that winter.

And the next winter we had
200 stock days per acre.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: now one
thing you mentioned, that, that

is a tremendous increase, and one

thing you mentioned there, that
when we bell graze, sometimes we get

that area where stuff doesn't grow
real good that first year, and you

mentioned doing, grazing with your
high density or your mob or putting

your mineral feeder in that area, so
hooves are stirring up that ground a

little bit, so you get growth sooner.

Yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
The only time that I've seen that

that you get these big patches where
the grass isn't growing, is when you

don't have your grazing under control.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
When you don't have your the animals

don't even have to be super mobbed up.

They just have to be a
little bit contained,

and you have to just go
through your rotation.

And I remember there was one place we
had real shitty hay for the winter.

So then we had more Of this
piled forge from the winter.

I just put the mineral tub out
there each time we went through

and just that hoof action of
walking through, just loosen

things up and there you go.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
But the, yeah, but if you have that

big ring where not, there's no growth,
that's a reflection of your grazing

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So, Tom, it is time we transition
just a little bit and move on

to our overgrazing section.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Sure.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253:
on the same thing.

We're talking about bale grazing,
but in converse to bale grazing,

what if you stockpile some forages?

And that's our topic today
for our overgrazing section.

So when we talk about stockpiling
forage, what are you talking about?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Well, the end goal is

high volume, high quality.

Okay?

So, in terms of quality, I want at least
13 percent protein, and high 60% TDN.

So for, that's for quality.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
okay, and Then for volume, I want

a hundred at least 150 to 200 stock
days per acre in that paddock.

That's for the high volume the way that
you get there you have to start with

that goal in mind right as soon as your
first day of grazing and That's the way

I start and I want to get around I want
to get everything clipped and I want to

keep everything clipped don't slow down.

Yes, you're going to have some
forage that's going to go into

stage 3, into a reproductive phase.

But, as long as you can keep it under 20
percent that has gone to stage 3, you're

going to have fantastic quality feed.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
For stockpile.

And now, again, this is going
to be an example specific to

the latitude of Athabasca.

My experience.

The forge that you want to get
stockpiled, you need to clip

that by no later than August 7th.

Because at our latitude, the
killing frost, where the general

killing frost is, there won't be
enough time for that forge to grow.

So, you'll have good quality,

but you won't have, you
won't have high volume

before a killing frost.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: how far
is that in advance of your first

frost or your killing frost?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
I wanna say six weeks.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, okay.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay.

Because there's two things at that time
of year you're, the forge is growing

slower, very noticeable difference.

After that first week of August 'cause
the daylight hours are getting shorter

here, so then your growth slows down.

So then you know, your recovery
period lengths lengthens.

So.

Are you happy with that explanation?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: I think
that's a great explanation.

One thing I'm curious about, Yeah.

But It's not auen.

In your area, what are you stockpiling?

What varieties of grass is it?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Whatever's there, man.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Whatever's there.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah.

And the thing that I find once
you get this type of grazing

the varieties, like it changes.

All those plants are in, like, seeds
or whatever are in the soil and once

you set up the environment so that they
can express themselves, they just pop

out and here they are and you don't
know where the hell they came from.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: And do
you, are you stockpiling that?

And when you say stockpiling, that's,
you're leaving it on the plant, you're

not going through cutting it or anything.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Correct.

Correct.

I have in the past, I have had
Pretty much straight alfalfa,

like a 80 percent alfalfa field.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah, and I wasn't going, I knew what

was going to happen if I left it.

So I did swath that, but like
clovers and grass, I don't bother.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
just let it stand.

But if it's alfalfa cause if
you let it stand, the leaves are

going to freeze and fall off.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, okay.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
So I just hired someone to come swath

it and we basically swath grazed hay.

And it worked great.

One

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Now one
thing when you're, that far north

and you're grazing stockpile, you're
going to have to deal with some snow.

How's

that affect your grazing of stockpile?

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Well, to tell you the truth, the

biggest thing, you need to have quality
and you have to need to have volume.

Okay?

Once you have that, I'm actually
not sure what the limit is for

what cows can go through.

2006, that was before I had my iPhone.

I did not take a picture and I am.

I think we had four,
close to four feet of snow

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
and that the cattle were digging through.

Now this was swath grazing.

It was a, it was oats,

cereal, okay.

but there was a volume there
and there was a quality there.

So they just went and trucked
through and it was like a grader

came and furrowed those rows.

And in fact, like, it was so, the banks
between the rows were so, Deep that the

cattle just went all the way down to the
end and then came around and worked back

up they wouldn't go, you know jump across
But it's hard to envision That cattle

could go through that much snow and then
I did get myself into a predicament I

bought some salvage crop salvage oats
and The swath was very thin And beginning

of January, I had about 1, 800 days
of swath grazing is what I figured.

Beginning of January it warmed
up, and the deer came and busted,

er, busted my fence, my temporary

fence, and the cattle walked a mile and a
half down the swaths and froze them down.

And I panicked, because, at that time
it was the I know neighbors that I could

lean on and say, Hey, what should I do?

All I needed to do was throw, about
20 horses in there and I would have

been fine, but like I said, I panicked
and I went and spent 16, 000 that I

didn't have on buying hay for these

cattle when I had all
this feed sitting there.

So it's good to have a group of
people that you can bounce ideas

off of for those times when you
don't know what the hell to do.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: You
mentioned if you'd had some horses in

there, you could put them in there.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
if you'd had some horses, why horses?

Actually, I think he's from Wyoming
and he was up in British Columbia

named Pan Phillips, and he wrote
about that's what how they had these

Dried out meadows in the winter

and that's what they wintered their cattle
on but they ran the horses with them The

horses opened it up for the cattle

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Yeah.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah, one of my little dreams

before I die, I want to train
cattle To paw through stow.

They certainly have the physiology

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
When you think about it, like a

cow pawing at you, if she's mad,

that's the same physiology that
she would need to paw snow.

So, one day I will get that figured out.

I'll get a herd that's, of
cows that know how to do that.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: There

you go.

Yes you know for me snow's not
that big a worry, but I know a

lot of people north of me snow's

a big problem

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
You bet.

Well, and you know what, I have
a video of ranch that I was on.

I was watching these
cows in what the heck.

Oh, and I was doing
stockpile grazing stockpile.

And I saw these cows walking and
they were just all in a tight mob.

And I was wondering what the hell?

I just could have the.

tail end of what they were doing, but
I went down there, they had walked on

that snow, and there was like these,
they broke up these blocks about four

inches by four inches of snow, and the
only way they could do that, they had

to all walk together, and they walked

about two or three acres, and then they
spread out and they started grazing.

It was just, it was very cool.

Anyways, I have that on, it's on one
of my videos on my YouTube channel.

It's not the greatest video, but
it's you wanna pay attention and you

find that interesting, it's pretty
fricking interesting that animals could

work together to figure that sort of

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yeah.

Yeah, that is interesting
and one thing in your book

You have a lot of links to videos
that's available to go with your book

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Yeah.

Did you check those?

QR codes?

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: I have not yet

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Oh my gosh,

that's just rude.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: I had to hurry

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
That's rude

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: this, so,
I I will check them out, though.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
You should,

because you know what, I have
a couple I was gonna mention, I

have a couple videos in there.

About how to save time,
you're talking about moving.

Okay, so so I've trained I
started out training animals

With a bell I had two bells and now I just
use a whistle Different type of whistle

and so I have a video on there and I Knew
that we're gonna be later in the season.

We're gonna be going
into some bush paddocks

So I trained the, there's
300 finishing heifers there.

I trained them to this whistle.

And so the video that I took was
me calling them 300 out of a bush.

So from the time that I crawl over
the fence, till the time the last

heifer walks through the old creek
bank, is 5 minutes and 30 seconds.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
Okay, normally that would be

three or four cowboys with

a couple dogs and another cowboy on a
quad, a minimum of an hour and a half.

I know that because I've seen it.

And

so there's,

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: well.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
yes, so there, there is a little, just

a little snippet of, save some time.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh,

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252:
And it does take long to train them.

Another thing there, I have another
video, it's the WAVE video, it's

how to move these newborn animals.

Okay.

And, like earlier in this interview I said
this idea of can a 12 year old do this?

It's just always in my head on
everything, and it's just make, if

I have to do labor, I want to really
evaluate whether it's worth it or not.

So have you ever been, where you have
a calf that's, a newborn calf that's

sleeping and it doesn't want to get up?

So if

you're on your horse, you have to
get off your horse and you have

to go and kick it a little bit.

Come on, get up.

And I just thought, fuck I,
oh, that's just worse, sorry.

I used to ride this great 3,
and she's a pain in the ass when

you're calving because up and down.

And so then I started
thinking about energy.

And I thought, I wonder if I could just
bring this big energy to this calf that's

laying down and I could get him up and
then I wouldn't have to get off my horse.

And I call it flashing.

And so anyways, in that video, I, there's
a shot of me doing that exact thing.

And I just come up with my energy.

And as soon as that calf starts
to get up, I back my horse up,

and that calf just pops up and
went like three, three steps away.

It didn't take off.

All I

needed to do was, and I didn't
have to get off my horse.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Oh, yeah.

Win.

squadcaster-i073_1_07-11-2024_170252: Win.

So there you go.

cal_2_07-11-2024_180253: Very good, Tom.

Tom, it is time for us to do
our famous four questions,

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