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Apiary Chronicles is the podcast where the world of beekeeping comes alive. Hosted by Cal Hardage, this show explores the personal journeys, challenges, and triumphs of beekeepers from all walks of life. From backyard enthusiasts to commercial apiarists, each episode dives into the unique stories and invaluable insights that make beekeeping both an art and a science.
Discover tips on hive management, pollinator health, and honey production while learning about the dedication and passion behind each beekeeper’s journey. Whether you’re an experienced apiarist, a beginner, or just curious about the buzzing world of bees, Apiary Chronicles offers inspiration, education, and community.
Join us weekly as we celebrate the people and pollinators shaping a sustainable future, one hive at a time. Subscribe now and step into the world of Apiary Chronicles!
Speaker: On today's episode,
On today's episode, we have Phoebe
Snyder, and we talk about her journey
with bees, and then for the Beyond
the Buzz, we talk about hygienic bees.
I think it's a great conversation,
and I think you'll enjoy.
cal_1_01-30-2025_124204: so to
start out, What's your name?
phoebe_1_01-30-2025_134205: Phoebe Synder
cal_1_01-30-2025_124204: Our second
question, what's your apiary's name
phoebe_1_01-30-2025_134205: Phoebe's Bees,
cal_1_01-30-2025_124204:
and where are you located?
phoebe_1_01-30-2025_134205:
in Greensboro, North Carolina.
cal_1_01-30-2025_124204: And what
year did you start with bees?
phoebe_1_01-30-2025_134205:
It was around, I'd say 2015.
So it was about 10 years ago now.
cal_1_01-30-2025_124204: Oh, very good.
And how many colonies do you manage?
phoebe_1_01-30-2025_134205: Currently
I'm around 30, but this, coming year
probably will get up to around 50 or 60.
cal_1_01-30-2025_124204: Oh, very good.
Cal: Welcome to Apiary Chronicles, where
we dive deep into the world of beekeeping
and the people who make it all happen.
I'm Cal Hardage your host
and fellow bee enthusiast.
cal_1_01-30-2025_124204: So that
begs the question, why bees?
phoebe_1_01-30-2025_134205:
That's a, that's a good question.
It kind of goes back to how I grew up.
I grew up on a farm, a small farm about
five acres in in western Maryland.
And we had sheep and goats and
donkeys, all, everything but bees
we had pretty much hedgehogs too.
And So, I think, well, I mean,
there were a few other career
ideas I had before settling on Bs.
I was gonna be a professional violinist
and a surgeon and all kinds of
stuff, but I realized that You know,
I really liked working outdoors
and what kind of solidified that
for me was early on in college.
My mom is is quite the entrepreneur.
She has her own sewing business, but
on the side she has an eBay business.
And one of the things, as unethical
as I feel like this is now we
started hunting for and selling
praying mannose egg sacs on eBay.
So it was kind of that, it was just
so entertaining, you know, to on a
Sunday, you know, we would be in,
we hunt for them and in the winter.
So getting our our shears or our printers
and, you know, a pillowcase and we would
go and, you know, As we had started
to do it more and more, we figured
out kind of where they were and you
know, so it just kind of became really
interesting to learn an insect like that.
And I don't know.
So then it just kind of
naturally brought me.
To bees with there being, you know,
beekeeping, not many people would think
of it, but beekeeping is really a,
an entire industry and contributes so
much to, to other areas of agriculture.
So, you know, behavior was really
the majority of my interest and
bees are the busiest of all.
So there's a lot to learn
with them behavior wise.
cal_2_01-30-2025_124807: Phoebe,
I think it's really interesting
you mentioned praying mantis.
I remember being in high school and
I tried, I was convincing my brother
praying mantis are the pets of the future.
phoebe_2_01-30-2025_134807: Mm
cal_2_01-30-2025_124807: You know,
people could have them in their room.
They'd have to, I didn't, I didn't know
anything beyond, oh, they'd be so cool.
But, I remember telling my
brother about praying mantis that
we've got to figure this out.
phoebe_2_01-30-2025_134807: See, we
were on the same, same wavelength there.
But yeah, people had bought, bought them
you know, we would sell the egg case and
each one has like five, up to 500 praying
mantids.
And, you know, people would buy them by
the hundreds and, and I, as unethical
as it was, I felt like we harvested
in a sustainable, you know, we would
only take every other egg sacs found,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: oh yeah, so
you got started with bees in about 2015?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Correct.
Yep.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: what
brought you to that point that you
said, okay, let's get some bees?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: So I actually,
that's kind of the, the part of it.
I haven't, it, I only just
got my own bees two years ago.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, okay.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: so I've kept
bees in research settings and through
like consultative kind of services.
So when I first got started then
in 2015, there was a mentor.
She was working as a chemistry adjunct
professor at the school I went to,
but she kind of, so she did that
part time, but then, you know, she
worked as a researcher at the USDA.
And so we, you know, she kind of started
me at the ground level, you know, I was
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
and working bees and you know,
so I guess because I had the.
science side, you know, so I kind
of leveled up into helping her on
different research trips and taking data
and it just kind of went from there.
And then that eventually after I graduated
college, I worked for her as an intern
at the USDA before starting my master's.
It is kind of funny to think
that, you know, I've been keeping.
Other people's B's all
these years and it was good.
It was good practice before I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: probably
the more extreme of, know test
drive the car before you buy it.
But I was already, you know, the first
time I went into with, with Jodi, my
mentor, you know, I knew I would be.
doing this as a career.
I don't, I don't, I didn't know
what that meant at the time, but
I was like, oh yeah, this is it.
So here we are.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Did
you, so your undergrad or your
bachelor's degree is in biology?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Correct.
Yep.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: And then what'd
you go back to school for your master's?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
That was biology as well.
And
was focused on, um, looking out at how a
performance of hygienic behavior it's the
social immune behavior of the colony how
that performance of that changes from One
B all the way up to a full colony scale.
So I and compared different group
sizes across the scale and did part of
that work in Israel and just published
the findings of that last year.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, very good.
Very good.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
so that was fun.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Yeah, so
I think you said your mentor Jody?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yes.
Yes.
mentor.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: So at that
point, before you got into bees,
you said you got in that hive,
you knew you'd be working with it.
But what was the thought pattern
before you ever started right there?
Were you already leaning towards bees
and thinking, yeah, this is interesting?
And why?
Does that go back to the insects
with praying mantis and just kind
of followed that path or, or how
did you end up there at these?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah, I think
well, I was already obsessed with bees
before, like getting the, to actually
go, you know, and she took me in the
hive for the first time, I was like,
oh, yeah, I've been ready for this.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: was
ready to have a, you know, a life
changing experience, I guess.
But before that, I had done, you know, all
the reading I could, and I actually saw
one of the more sort of transformational
things that I saw that I, I had watched
the TED talk from Marla Spivak and, and
she is a pioneer in, in our field and
generally in bees, but more specifically
for the behavior I ended up studying.
So the way she delivered that talk,
and it just kind of opened my eyes.
You know, my world too.
This is so interesting, this insect
and all the behaviors that you know,
I don't even know about yet, so,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: dug in
and it was, it was on up from there.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: With
your, your research and having,
or looking into it, you knew a lot
before you got into that first hive.
Yeah.
But you got into that first hive.
Was there anything that surprised
you while you stood there doing that?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Mmm, I think
I was surprised, I mean, I'm a more, I
guess that, that's evidence by how much
research I put into it before actually
going into it, but I didn't expect to
have the emotional connection that I,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
in the first time.
So, when I think one of the craziest
kind of cosmic event part of it was, was
seeing a bee emerge for the first time.
And
I don't know, it was just
something about watching it.
emerge and crawl out and it goes to work
and I don't know, so it was the hum of
the hive and it just, I think beekeeping
kind of, once I actually got into the
hives came in my life at a really
important time that I needed emotionally
and personally, but you know, it became
a, a way of intellectual exploration,
but also Personal development too.
So it, it really felt for
me to be a career of it.
And, and just because I loved it.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yes.
That feeling when you're in the hive it's
just crazy how people experience that.
I know when I'm in my
hives, it, it's just crazy.
It totally, because you're, you're
surrounded by bees and, and you're
immersed in, in it, you totally
forget about everything else.
And that's, if you think about your,
the best experiences or best moments
in your life, that's the way they are.
Everything else ceases to
exist and you're just there.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yep.
Yeah.
That's the part too.
You can't help, but be, you
know, locked in like that.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yeah.
Did you get your first
sting on that first day?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
They kind of came all at once.
I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: It was
on one of those first times I was
installing a package and it was brutal.
I probably got 60,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: on my legs.
and, yeah, my mentor, there were a couple
times, those first few times getting
in the hives where I had heat stroke.
Yeah, I got stung all those times.
We went and worked in
Africanized bees, and
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
got stung, like, 150 times.
And she sat me down one time and said
Phoebe, I don't know if you're just
getting baptized in fire, or if maybe
you need to think of another career path.
I remember I just cried the
whole way back from her house
because I was like, no, this has
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: This, this,
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: They me.
So I stuck with it.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118:
Yeah, well, very good.
Yeah.
And then it took you a number of
years before you got your first hives.
When you got your first hive, what did you
decide to get and how did you get started?
I mean, did you go by Langstroth?
You go with Deeps, Tens?
Did you order a package?
Did you get nukes?
Did you catch a swarm?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I was picking up packages for Our
research hives and he said that he
this was, let me see, when was this?
think in 2021 when I got these and he
said that he got more packages than,
you know, people had ordered and he'd
give me a deal on these other two.
And, you know, at this point I
had just moved to my new place
and I had some backyard access.
So I said, okay, this is it.
I'm going to get, and I started with eight
frame equipment, even though I, and I,
I switched all the way over to 10 now,
but it was just kind of like, this is.
This is the moment, this is when it can
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: so I took two
packages and started them in my backyard.
And there is an HOA here, which I ended
up paying for that decision later.
And then crazily enough, my my house
got shot up and the bullet like went
straight in between my two hives and then
to move them.
But it was actually, I'm really
glad, not glad that my house got shot
but I'm glad that that
experience happened because.
You know, with having to move them
because it jump started the business.
You know, I, the way I was doing, or
going to do it, had I been able to
keep them in the backyard was, okay,
these are my two hives just for me.
And.
You know, but then once I could no longer
keep them a place where it was more
convenient, then I was like, okay, I
need to, if I'm going to move them here
to this property, how can I, you know,
make this a revenue generating model?
And I grew the hives and a beekeeper
really helped me out with with
providing those nucs and, you know,
I, I work for him sometimes too.
And so it just really, you
know, kind of built up quick
all because I had to move them.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, it
caused a little bit of a mind shift
there because of the location.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Yeah, that,
that's actually a great point, you
know, when they're in the backyard
and you just can run out there and
they're just kinda part of the backyard.
But if they're somewhere else, then
it takes time and effort to get there.
You start realizing, well, what's
actually the cost of doing this?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Right.
Yep.
And then, you know, it justifies being
more efficient and investing in certain
things to help you do those jobs easier.
And then, well, now I need some more
hives and, okay, what products can
I make or what services can I offer?
And, you know, so now a few years
later, it's it's kind of taking over
you know, what my main job is, and now
I'm, my plan this year is to invest more
in that business and kind of grow out
more of the consultative services part
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
in Queens and stuff like that.
see.
We're not there yet.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: It'll be
exciting to see where you go with that.
One thing you mentioned there,
you started with 8 frames.
Why did you go with 8 frames?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
I think that was, he had the
equipment ready and painted.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118:
Oh, that's what, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
it was a convenience thing.
yeah, I, I've always preferred.
I mean, I do like the, you get a
little bit more room with the eight.
you know, with the, with frames and if you
feed frame feeders, I feel like you get,
you know, a little bit extra room there.
But yeah, my 10 is for me, it's just
easier if it's all the same equipment.
And,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: So do you run
deep tens, and then, do you use any
honey supers, or are you using all deeps?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: My
friend does all deeps and I, I
don't think I have the back for it.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Right, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: yeah,
so typically usually run double
deeps for my brood chamber.
But I think I'll explore some single deep,
single deep brood management this year.
And then I'll do medium supers.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118:
Oh, medium supers.
Yeah.
With your hives, I think you
mentioned 21 was about then.
So did, when did you get
your first honey harvest?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Let's
see, I think that was 22 then.
Yeah, hard to believe we're in 2025.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: It is.
I agree.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I'm
sitting here looking at the date.
So I think, yeah, it was, 22 was
my first, and that was, that was
very small harvest that year.
And then 2023, I expanded quite a bit.
And then this past year
was, was a big year too.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Did you
find a, did you have enough honey
to start selling honey at that time?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah, and
so kind of my strategy at that time,
because beekeeping, or at least that
business was not my full time job,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Right.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: time
had a a startup with another bee
scientist and we were in the process of
launching a new product for beekeepers.
So that was kind of my main focus.
And then, you know, even though I was
beekeeping there too, that, you know, for
my own hives and kind of developing that
more as a honey brand or like a boutique,
not boutique, really, I, I, I don't know.
I, I have kind of different
styles with my beekeepers.
marketing.
I have kind of a metal kind of marketing
with the honey and then, you know, kind
of another, but so this was just kind of
a different expression and yeah, I can't
remember what, what the question was
or why I was talking about that before,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Well, well,
Path to selling honey and
how that went for you.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
oh, okay, that's right.
Yeah, so my first year.
I did have enough to sell.
I sold at just a few markets and just here
and there where they popped up and I made
all my labels by hand and that was a lot,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: and writing
everything, and that did, that did pretty
good, I think, as anyone knows who does
markets, you kind of never know what
you're going to get and it is a lot
of work to stay dedicated to it, but
you can build up, you know, a reliable
customer base, customer base from there.
So I, I know what I was saying now
with having to balance my honey sales
with you know, my full time job was,
I was kind of looking for more ways
to sell the honey at wholesale or
bulk pricing just so I didn't have to.
so much time into bottling
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: so that
was effective those first couple years
and you know now that I'm looking
to Establish it more as a brand.
I'm gonna Change how I allocate my honey
sales this year if that makes sense
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Are you
selling any other products beyond honey?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: This year.
Yeah, I've done some beeswax stuff Just
lip balms and the lotion bars I like.
Um, one, one kind of big part of my
revenue model is I keep the bees, some
of my bees at a winery, and he takes
that honey and makes mead with it.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: This past year
was his first large scale mead production.
and then I, you know, I kind of
do, Hive tour, tours that I'll
do and some consulting stuff.
And, you know, this year I think I'll do,
you know, I spent all this time learning
about selective breeding and queen
rearing, but that's something I have yet
to take on myself, but so that's kind of
where I'm going this year of establishing
good genetics in my apiary and getting my,
getting my mating and queen rearing next.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Making mead,
I've talked to, to someone that, if I
expand my apiary where I can have enough
honey, they're going to make some meads,
which sounds really exciting to me to,
to venture in there just on a hobby
scale and try it and see how it goes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I'm excited.
I will.
I'm curious to try it on my own, but
I'm also in a group on Facebook, and I
see all kinds of stuff happening that.
I'm not sure I would
know what to do with it.
So if somebody else can make
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Make it, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Yeah,
that works out and then you don't
have all the risk and all the
equipment and everything to do it.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah,
because like we were talking about
earlier, I know I would go out and
been trying to make myself not buy
the mead making kits and all that
easy and so much fun.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118:
Oh, I, I fully get that.
Yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Let's
jump back just a little bit to your
bees and you really expanded them.
How did you expand your apiary?
You mentioned you hadn't
really done queen rearing yet.
You're gonna do more of that.
Did you bring in packages?
Did you do splits?
How'd you do the expansion?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah,
so my when I really expanded then,
I think that was 2023, I believe.
And a beekeeper that I had for, for,
you know, a couple of years before
that he's grown his outfit quite a bit.
And he said that, you know, when it,
when I was going to get ready to go
full time with my bees, that he would
give me 20 nucs that I could get started
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
so that was a great boost.
You know, I, I wouldn't be doing what I'm
doing today if it weren't for, for him.
You know, supplying those.
So that got me started in that, 23.
And then I had great
overwintering that year.
And they came out really strong.
So I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yes.
Oh yes.
Oh yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I have
equipment all around me and trying to like
build everything, you know, my backyard.
So it's just, I don't have a very good
setup right now and being able to try
and build my equipment here on time.
So I just had some operational
issues this last year with trying to
work out of my house and scale it.
And, so.
I had to clean up a lot of my own
swarms and that was more so than
any of the, you know, what, eight
years of beekeeping before that.
It's just because I had, it was funny
to feel like I was having like a growing
pains, even though it was very strange
of, okay, I've been doing this, you
know, I know what I'm doing, but try, I
had a very different set of challenges.
working out of here than before.
So, this year, yeah, we're
going to split even more.
This year I have a lot of equipment ready
some, some new yards and contracts that
I'm working with to, to place the bees.
So be a, should be a
big year of expansion.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: You mentioned
you're gonna try and raise some queens.
You mentioned splits.
What's your plan of action
to do that this year?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah,
that's I'm still working on, well, I
know what I'm, I, I know that I'll get
of too, too off in the weeds about it.
Yeah, I'm going to split what
I have coming out of winter.
And then I have some of
the new access yards.
I can make my splits and I have
to kind of set up a teaching
yard because I also teach,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
beekeeping at a local college.
So my plan is to split as many as I can
and take some there for the teaching and
then bring them back to the other yards
that I'll have set up as my mating yards.
So, we'll see.
I'm about to check the bees here
probably tomorrow and start on how,
how many splits and, and, you know, I
can make and start planning from there.
But yeah,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: This weekend
coming up, of course this will be released
next week, so, but this weekend it's like
70 degrees here on Saturday and Sunday.
Oh
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: time of,
you know, a lot of people here in the
South or new beekeepers think, Oh, good.
We're out of, we're out of winter and
we can start, you know, and that's
kind of where the danger comes in.
As the
birding and.
Yeah, they can go through food real
quick and start, you know, especially
once the cold comes back in again.
So, you know, now's the time to get out
and check, see how their food's looking.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: How do
you plan on doing those splits?
Are you just, are you going to, to
divide it into two hives, let them
raise their own queen, or are you
going to control what the new queen is?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I may have
some, so I'm working with, um, their, this
is called the Northern Queen Initiative.
It's a part of the SBGMI Guild.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, okay.
Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
are all over the country.
So.
I have been working with James talking
about maybe how we could start a kind of
model like that here in the southeast.
And so, know, one thing that is a
goal for them is to be able to select
and breed for their local Queens but
it's the time to, to rear them that
they're, you know, because they're
still in winter when we're, you know,
we'll have already gotten done a
round of grafts at least before that,
even warm enough up there.
So we're talking about, you know, maybe
he ships me some queens down here I can
graft off the, the F1s and send them back.
So I may have some Control over the
genetics, but also kind of working
with other beekeepers in the area.
And I think kind of a co op model in
agriculture in general, but in beekeeping
specifically is really important.
so all of us are working together
to source genetics from different
areas and maintain genetic diversity.
But also get in some, you know,
different stuff that we might like, you
know, Caucasians are really good for
production pole lines and just so some
different stuff that we're trying and
you know, swapping around to each other.
So
buffer us against losses and.
you know, maintains the diversity.
So I think I will have some
it'll be interesting to see.
So all this is going to kind of
come together, I think, in the next
month, but, know, that's beekeeping.
I'm always flying by the seat
of my pants, I feel like.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: You
know, I talk a lot about this.
So often, I get in the middle
of something before I'm really
ready to be in the middle of it.
I'm like, Oh!
I have these animals coming here
today, I gotta go work on a pen.
I, I, I've gotta work a little bit
better on that, but I, I do feel that.
Would you characterize your,
your bees as mainly Italians what
you have, or just some local?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
Yeah, they're Italian, sourced
locally so the let me see.
When I got them from my friend
Ashby, who, the beekeeper he got
them from is Cameron Spath out
of Honeystrong in South Carolina.
So, Ashby had made, grafted, you know,
we had done some hygienic testing with
those, . Ashby grafted off the best,
and then that was what I and, you know,
many of his other new customers got.
So, pretty local stock you know, I,
I really like these bees, they brood
up really well build up quick, honey
production was good gentle, and I noticed,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: know,
for a, for a thing like hygienic
behavior, if you are selecting for
it, you may, you're still going to
see variability among your hives.
So I didn't test them for hygiene
specifically like, you know, like
I've done in the past, but just
visually, you know, that there were
some in there that were maintaining
mite or keeping mite loads down.
I was seeing uncapping.
So, you know, I, I was, I was
pretty happy with those bees.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, very good.
One, one thing you mentioned throughout
this is working with other beekeepers.
Would you say that's a big
part of what you're doing?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
I, I feel like.
with the internet being
well, take it or leave it.
There's good and bad to it.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Right.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I have
learned so much about, about beekeeping
just from other areas, other geographic
regions, the, the, the The challenges
that people face, their different
scales, how they're scaling their
business from, feeding, queen rearing.
So, I've learned a lot from being able
to connect with those folks and you know,
just see what they're talking about.
But,
I've also maintained a lot
of close relationships with.
all kinds of different beekeepers.
So I feel like more connected we are and
the more you know, going to conferences
and that network and being able to talk
about the industry or the, the problems
and challenges that we're facing,
I feel like only makes our industry
stronger when we're more connected.
So that's something I feel like
is important to me of You know,
I, I always kind of feel like I'm,
not quite in the research realm.
I'm not quite a beekeeper.
I am a beekeeper, but I'm not, I'm
never going to be a commercial beekeeper
because that's just simply not where my
skill set lies of scaling to that level.
But so I think I have kind of a unique,
even though I don't quite fit in a
specific category, but I'm coming to
the industry, I think, with kind of a
unique, perspective and type of rounded
experience that, you know, I I feel like
my title, I don't, I'd never really quite
know what it is in beekeeping, but I
know what my role is and being able to
use My network and connections and and
try to turn that around to hopefully
make the most good for the industry.
So We'll see what that leads to.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118:
I, I think that's great.
I, I'll be honest.
The networking part, This is
going to be crazy to say with a
podcast, but when I think about
Regent Divag, and I think about
beekeeping, that's not my strong suit.
Talking to people puts me
out of my comfort zone.
Just, I'm more of an introvert.
I know it's crazy when I do this, and
my wife says, yeah, no one knows that
you are because you talk to everyone.
But it's really outside my comfort zone,
going to it takes me a little bit of work
to, to engage in those conversations.
And I always know when I do it,
the benefits are so wonderful.
It's just sometimes getting there and
doing it is, is a little difficult for me.
And I'm a homebody.
I mean, I'll be, I'll look at the calendar
and I'll be like, Oh, I really should go.
This is, so there's bee club
that meets an hour away from me.
And that Monday night I'm always like,
Oh, I just want to stay home, but
I know if I go, I really enjoy it.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
yeah, it can be hard to one.
It's sometimes too.
It feels like You know, I know I
want to be more involved in my local
club this year or at least trying
to to go to more meetings, but I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: that time
of night or, you know, I feel like
most of the time I wake up and I'm I'm
talking to beekeepers on the phone.
I'm writing about bees.
I'm reading about bees.
And so sometimes it's just like,
you know what, can I watch a true
crime documentary or something?
I just need to not.
Talk about bees right now,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: I like to,
my wife and I like to characterize it
by the morning us is very different
from the evening us, because the
morning us we're talking about,
Oh, we should have this for supper.
We'll do this.
And then evening self is like,
Oh, I don't want to cook.
I don't want to go anywhere.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: of
that, especially in the winter too.
It makes it even harder.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, it does.
Yes.
In talking about those connections and
And what role the internet played in,
in fostering some of those connections.
Were there some resources that you
really found beneficial that people,
you would encourage people to use?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah.
I think for beekeeping specifically,
BeeSource is a great, that's like
beekeeping Facebook, and then actual
Facebook, I would say you know, and
that kind of happened twofold of.
that I, through talking with
beekeepers and I just became more
and more, more friends with more
And so, you know, just what they post but
also being involved in the groups too.
So that, that has helped a lot.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Are
there some particular groups
that are, are really beneficial?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
I think, for, for Facebook
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118:
Yeah, for Facebook.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: a
member, being a member of your state
organization's Facebook, because that'll
give you the most, you know, local
and up to date information for you.
I enjoy some of the beginner beekeeping
groups because I think it's I mean,
there is, there's a lot of stuff
on there that, you know, people
asking for advice and, and things.
So I think it's interesting to read,
you know, see that concept of ask 10
beekeepers one question, get 11 answers.
But, you know, and a lot of that ends up
boiling down to be about the same anyway.
But it's so it's, it's interesting to
me to read what people are suggesting
for different problems, the problems
that arise, because, you know, after
10 years of doing this, I'm not going
to be seeing this with the same eyes
as somebody, of course, I can know
what to recommend and things like that.
But so it just helps me to be more mindful
of when interacting with newer beekeepers.
but I think.
Being on the queen breeders
forum is really important.
And then some, you know,
think of some larger scale.
I, I wouldn't, like, recommend
a commercial Facebook,
Facebook beekeeping group.
But, you know, something that's,
sideliners are joining and
they're talking about you know,
I scaled up my feed rig to this.
This has made
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: So, I think
that kind of gives a good mix of of
beekeeping from different perspectives.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Those
are wonderful suggestions.
And I always, you know, at first,
Facebook, you know, the negatives of
it and everything, but basically my
feed on Facebook is all the groups
I'm part of and I, I find that really
valuable that I didn't anticipate
it being as valuable as it is.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I know,
that's the only reason why I'm keeping
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Right, exactly.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I'm gonna miss
my updates on Grandma's canning group?
Come on, I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Right.
Exactly.
To get started with the beyond
the buzz, let's talk a little
bit about hygienic behavior.
And first, just so we're all on the
same page, when we talk about hygienic
behavior, what are we talking about?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: So this is
a behavior that is performed mostly by
middle aged bees, and essentially it is
the detection, uncapping, and removal
of brood that is unhealthy or that would
pose a threat in some way to her sisters
if she emerged and spread, you know, the
virus's disease or, or mites that she had.
Bees will, and depending on is at the core
of the issue, the brood is able to use
pheromones to communicate to nurses that,
recruit them to the area and essentially
give them more information once they
uncap it, inspect the brood and, you
know, a few things can happen from there.
In the case of if it's a mite you
know, they'll uncap and sometimes
recap or they can remove the, the
brood too if it's too diseased.
Sometimes they cannibalize so even
though that sounds, you know, It's
kind of harsh for the baby bees.
It's a way of the colony
protecting itself.
It's a part of the colony's immune system.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: And
with the hygienic behavior,
you mentioned testing for it.
How do you test for hygienic
behavior in your bees?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Sure.
Yeah, there's a few different ways
to do it and they all range in skill
level, access, price, things like that.
So, and I would say before
performing any tests.
You want to make sure that you're
starting with a good selected stock first.
And I caution against that because, you
know, hygiene, hygiene testing is, I
know is something that appeals to more of
the bee nerds or people that, you know,
always want to find more information
out about their bees, but it is quite
investment upfront in the knowledge
and skills that, you know, to do it.
And so you don't want to do all that
and then not really get anything.
back that, you know, you
can breed off that stock.
So I would say source some good stock
first of a reputable hygienic breeder
but then once you get to the testing
phase more commonly what's used or
historically what's been used a lot
is the freeze killed brood test.
And so that can be done with using
liquid nitrogen You pour it onto a
section of capped brood and leave
them to work on that for 24 hours.
And if they uncap 95 percent or
more, then that's a hygienic colony.
You can also, there's a
modified version of that.
You could cut out a section of
brood freeze that, pop it back
in, and it's the same criteria.
something that Sorry,
there'll be a couple of them.
I'll make it brief though, but typically
what is done in Europe is the pin killed
brood test, and it's a pin that you pierce
through the center of capped brood cells,
and assess removal of that after 24 hours.
and then for the mite
focused hygienic test.
would be the Harbo test, and essentially
that is opening up lots of cells
manually and pulling out brood to
inspect for non reproductive mites.
So,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, okay.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: for the
colony's natural ability to preferentially
remove reproductive mites as a way
of suppressing mite reproduction.
And then lastly, the
test that I worked on.
And this was some work done with Dr.
Kara Waggoner out of UNC Greensboro.
essentially this is a pheromone
test that we released just last
year about a year ago now, and this
is taking those pheromones that I
talked about and applying them to a
section of capped brood and measuring
their uncapping after two hours.
And so
test kind of sits in between, it more
measures their ability to respond to
stressed brood rather than a brood that
is dead, like in the case of the freeze
killed brood test, which, you know,
that selects for a slightly different
mechanism of hygiene compared to like
the Harbo or, you know, or even UBO which
are to be different mechanisms there.
So I told you that's my,
that's my nerdy topic.
Okay.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: It's wonderful.
With the, the different methods there,
you mentioned just a while ago that
the, the selection for bees that are
removing those brood that's dead is
going to be different than stressed.
If you are doing a pin poke in it, is
that stressing the brood that gives off
that same pheromone, or is that going to
be more like the kill or the freeze test?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
Yeah, great question.
I would say, and there's been
some, I think some work is in the
mix to determine how different
the pheromones are compared in a
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
freeze killed brood.
I would say it is closer to a freeze
killed brood, but It has been shown
that bees are a little bit more
hygienic towards a pin killed brood
test because it leaves that hole
which facilitates detection and
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
removal of that.
But also, you'll see some hemolymph.
I've done hundreds of these pin
killed tests in my master's, and
yeah, you would always see this
puddle of hemolymph coming out.
And so, and that, that happens
if you, you know, hit a cell
that's a little bit young.
So, you
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: white eyed
brood so, and how that compares, you
know, there, we know that pheromone
profile of the freeze killed brood test,
that there is one pheromone component
of it that acts to Attract workers.
It's a, it's a highly volatile pheromone
that attracts workers and then more
targeted pheromones that they can
target the cell for hygiene then.
So I would imagine that pin kill
would be closer to that, but it's
a test that is not as widely used
because you can see some, some
of that exaggerated hygiene that,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
because they're actually that
hygienic or is it because.
you know, there's a big, big
hole in it and the Excel capping.
So, sorry, no, it's just, it's good to
just keep those in mind as you're testing.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: We did,
a few years ago, we had a high
school student at the school where
I worked in FFA doing a program
and they wanted to do some testing.
So we came out and did some pen
tests, or pen killed, brewed on
a few hives so they could see it.
And, and I'll have to admit,
The results were better than I
anticipated because I don't feel like
I haven't purchased hygienic bees.
I've just I've purchased a few packages.
I've caught a few swarms.
Not really worried about it too much.
So that could, could be a result
of that heightened response
due to the opening in the cap.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah.
And I think that too, and certainly there
were, you know, and all the ones I did in
my master's You know, when I, and I did
all the hygiene tests for this paper that
we were doing and kind of compared across
them, but yes, sometimes they would really
attack it and sometimes they wouldn't.
So, even though, you know, there, there
are some colonies still that won't
respond to it, even though, you know,
it should elicit a higher response.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
That makes sense.
But yeah, that's, that's interesting
that you tested with it too.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: So when
you do these tests, are you seeing
a wide range of responses to it?
Oh, yeah,
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: depends.
Yes, I do.
I see everything from, you know, the
most hygienic to no score at all.
It depends on the selection history.
It depends on the time of year that
you're testing that particular colony.
And yeah, I think it can
depend too on the test.
So, know.
hive that is selected for a freeze
killed brood performance on the freeze
killed brood test may score higher
on a Harbo just because there may be
some overlap, but may not be as a,
as a breeder for a Harbo candidate,
as a, as a breeder candidate for
a Harbo test, if that makes sense.
So we're, in general, selecting them to
be better sniffers, but the mechanisms.
for each behavior and
each test are different.
So even if you're selecting one colony
for one test and they score well there,
they may not necessarily respond that way.
So in the example of UBO, we found
that, you know, colonies that have
been selected for freeze killed
brood in general scored higher.
that test, but it's essentially selecting
for the, the, the top, even the top
performers of freeze killed brood, just
because it's a slightly, it's not as
powerful as the freeze killed brood scent.
It's a little bit more subtle, so we
wouldn't expect everybody to score
great on that test because, you know, we
haven't selected these for that really.
And it's, it's, it's a more subtle cue.
So there are a lot of things that can, you
know, kind of affect hygienic performance.
One then being the,
and food that's coming into the hive.
So, they're, they more readily
perform hygiene when there's
a nectar flow going on.
And that tends to be the time that
people do their hygiene testing.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: that leads me.
I'd made a note of the question
you mentioned about the
difference in time of year.
Is that really just a factor of
how much nectar is coming in?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah,
yeah, for UBO and for freeze killed
you may see a decrease in performance
or performance on the test.
If you test during the dearth
it's the opposite for the Harpo test.
That's you actually want to test.
During the dearth which.
You know, for here, it's
not really tied to the dirt.
It's really tied more to mite
population at that point.
the
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, okay.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: a Harpo
test would be You know, in August
when mite population is at its
highest and you know, gives you ample
opportunity to look to see how they're
dealing with the reproductive mites.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: When you
think about selection criteria for
your breeders, are you giving them
multiple tests or have you settled
on just one test to identify them?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah,
that's, that's a great question too.
I think that you should select, I think
that any hygiene selection should be the
last step in, in your selection method.
So you want to select for, you
know, some of these tests too, you
can use to, okay, I like these.
Colonies here say, like, out of maybe
I've narrowed it down to five that, you
know, look good, they built up good, good
temperament propolis production, and that
tends to vary based on producer what it
is that they look for prior to production.
But prior to hygiene selection, but,
you know, I can see the benefit.
It depends on how much time you have
and, and I guess how serious you are,
about your breeding stock and, and really
what the goals of your operation are.
So, if you're a queen breeder maybe
you're doing some, you're actually selling
instrumentally inseminated breeder
queens, or, you know, F1s, and you
want to, you want to that, you know,
this queen is priced at this, what, at
this price point because of all this
selection, then you may want to do two
hygiene tests, either You know, the freeze
killed brood and I would do harbo and
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: for any
breeder that I'm, that I'm selecting.
so, but you could do two, you could
even do a grooming test in there too, if
you wanted to, but you know, if you're
just looking for If you're, if you're
mainly a, beekeeper that is focused on
production, then I think sourcing the
genetics, you know, if you want to make
queens for yourself, I would pick one
test, probably the Harbo test, because
I think mites are, I think that's the
biggest problem that we're dealing with,
but you don't necessarily have to go
overboard with it to reap the benefits
of using mite, mite and disease resistant
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
For a backyard beekeeper or someone
with just a few hives, they get in a
queen that has hygienic behavior and
they raise a few queens out of her.
How many generations before they need
to go buy another hygienic queen?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: something
they should, well, rather than me
rambling on, I'll let you answer it.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
No, no, I know exactly.
Yeah, where you're going with that
and I'm not sure that, that I've
seen a very good answer for that.
I, I wouldn't recommend buying
years in a row from the same source
only purchasing from that source.
So, you know, if you buy from that
person again, and, you know, maybe
bring in some other sources as well,
but I think it's that repeated, you
know, and just in my visual experience,
I'm sure that there's a study that's
been done on this you know, for in our.
yards.
I has started.
I, there were times where
I saw the white eye drone
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: and
that's of, and I could be wrong
about this, but I think it's a
indication of some inbreeding there.
And that's when
as like, maybe we shouldn't keep
buying from, you know, this one
package source, which we did, you
know, we bought from the same.
Supply store and he brought
him in from Georgia.
So, you know, for a, for a small
scale beekeeper, just a couple hives
in the backyard, you know, maybe if
they are purchasing every year and.
If so, maybe there's some other
issues to, to address there.
Even, you know, we all have, you know,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Right.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: but you
certainly hear people sometimes,
you know, who are yearly customers.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: addressing
maybe some root issues there with
that, but, you know, maybe every
two to three years you know, could
add in some other sources and, just
to get around the inbreeding issue.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
Before we move to the famous four
questions, is there anything else you'd
like to add about hygienic behavior?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: No, I
thought that was a, that was exciting.
love when I get the chance to talk
about it and frame it in a way that,
hopefully people can use because it's.
is a pretty dense subject,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: you
could break it down into mite,
mite hygiene, hygienic behavior.
And so if we can, you know, a lot of
these bigger concepts, if, and the
point of it is of people like me,
I guess, learning about them is to
eventually, translate it in ways that,
you know, we can practically use.
So, I hope that of it
was helpful, at least.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Yes, it was.
Very good.
It is time for our famous four questions,
and Phoebe, I'm not sure I even mentioned
this before the episode, so Okay.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: That's okay.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: I, it
was on my list, but I didn't
get to it, but that's okay.
It's same four questions we
ask of all of our guests.
Our first question, what is your favorite
beekeeping related book or resource?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Hmm.
Let's see.
I think the beekeeper's bible is good.
I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: I love
how that really mixed in a lot of
historical, cultural there's a lot of
good recipes in there and, and some
practical beekeeping stuff there too.
So I, I love the aesthetics of it too.
I think it's a good, well rounded,
something that, you know, makes
interesting and approachable enough that
you're ready to grab the next book then.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, very good.
Yeah.
Our second question, what's your
favorite tool to use on your beekeeping?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Mmm, as in
like my hive tool, or like a hive tool.
Type or just what I
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: It's just, when
I think about tool, I'm, I don't mean, it
can be your physical hive tool, but just
in general, and maybe that's a rewording
I need to use on the, on the Grazing Grass
podcast, I say favorite tool for your
farm, and we get all kinds of answers.
I notice With the beekeeping,
we want to go to the hive tool.
So I may have to work on
the wording on that one.
It's
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: my head did
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Yeah, yeah, so
maybe your favorite What what could we do?
Favorite practice or
yeah, okay.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
So my, mine would be this.
super obnoxious.
This big blue feed barrel that
I put on the back of my truck.
And it's, it's completely
changed feeding for me, but
yeah, it's a big, it has a pump
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh, yes
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
big hose and but.
mixing up, gone are the days of mixing
up syrup in five gallon buckets and
and, you know, heaving
them up to pour it in.
So I would say as, as silly, and
people recognize me now around town
with my blue barrel on the back.
But yeah, that's, that's been my biggest
tool that I can't live without now.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh Very good.
Do you mix it up in the blue barrel?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: So I go to my
friend Ashby and he gets, because he's He
probably runs 400 to 500 hives, so he goes
and gets syrup from another commercial
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh,
so, so you're getting the
syrup, so you're, oh, very good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Much easier.
That's really good.
Yeah.
Our third question, what would you
tell someone just getting started?
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Mmm,
I would say, there's so many
things I would say just being,
Open and, open to the process of
learning and failing and staying
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: yeah.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: to the
education and staying dedicated to
the, to the education and being humble
for the lesson, if that makes sense
you know, because they're, I still, I
talked about my swarm issue last year.
You're never going to
stop making mistakes.
I, I know, you know, this too, you know,
experienced beekeeper yourself, but.
Know, the bees are always teaching
me things and I, my duty to them
is to continue to look for better
ways to do things and, you know,
not be hard on myself when I make a
mistake, but own up to it and, you
know, be better for, for next time.
So, you know, I think beekeeping is a,
is a process of, of something to learn
and kind of that lifelong learning thing.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Yeah.
Just,
just whenever you start to think
you know what you're doing,
the bees will correct you.
And I love that.
Being open to the process and to
the failures because there will be
failures in whatever you're doing.
There's going to be hurdles
There's going to be speed bumps.
There's going to be times you're setting
back and reevaluating what you're doing.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118: Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like beekeeping has enabled
me to take and evaluate better
risks than in my other life.
You know, my whole life,
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Oh Yes
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
starting a business.
And I failed as a beekeeper before.
I could fail at this, too.
But, you know, so
in a lot of other ways, too.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: very
good and lastly where can
others find out more about you
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
Oh don't want to do that.
I guess, well, Instagram's kind of maybe
Facebook, that's, that's a good one.
Yeah, my Instagram is, but that's
a lot of metal, so, you know,
that's a whole other personality.
So if you like slamming brutal death
metal, you can find me there, I guess.
cal_3_01-30-2025_125118: Very good.
Well, Phoebe, thank you for
coming on and sharing today.
phoebe_3_01-30-2025_135118:
Yeah, thank you for having me.
This has been great.