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UP TO THE MINUTE is a production of Colorado Radio for Justice (CRJ). It's a weekly snapshot of what’s happening, and what’s on the horizon, in the criminal-legal system in Colorado and beyond, hosted by CRJ's team of system-impacted podcast hosts. CRJ's featured guests / contributors on the show are staff from the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition (CCJRC). www.radioforjustice.org
[00:00:00]
[00:00:24] Introduction
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[00:00:24] Joybelle Phelan: Hello, and thank you for joining us on Colorado Radio for Justice Up to the Minute this week, we're at the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition. and my guest today is Kyle Giddings. We're gonna be talking a little bit about what's happening in the legislature this week.
Hey Kyle. How are you?
[00:00:40] Kyle Giddings: Good, how you doing, Joybelle?
[00:00:42] Joybelle Phelan: Uh, busy, busy, busy.
[00:00:44] Kyle Giddings: I feel that deeply. Yes.
[00:00:46] Joybelle Phelan: I'm sure. So let's start with last week or last time we talked.
[00:00:51] The JBC and a Request for More Prison Beds
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[00:00:51] Joybelle Phelan: You were so excited because the JBC, the Joint Budget Committee, um, had denied a request from the Department of Corrections for additional funding for additional beds.
[00:01:02] Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:02] Joybelle Phelan: What has happened since then?
[00:01:03] Kyle Giddings: they reversed literally the day after we talked the Joint Budget Committee made the decision to give them the 788 beds,Mark Ferrandino, who's the director of the, uh, State Office of Budget and Planning, came through and said, it's gonna cost you a lot of money now, or money a lot of money later. Well, the other money was gonna go to the counties and it's gonna hurt the counties and, uh, the jail backlog issues. That's what he was talking about. And so they got a lot of pressure from the governor's office and they decided to give him the beds. Um, there was still one lone, no vote, which was Judy Amabile from Boulder, Senator Judy Amabile. Uh, but, uh, Representative Kyle Brown and Representative Emily Sirota, uh, and Senator Jeff Bridges all moved to yeses to give him the beds, but they sent a very clear message. We're gonna give you these beds, [00:02:00] but, uh, we are still demanding a plan and we're still demanding action on the governors and DOCs and to figure out a safe way to manage their population. And to deal with these structural issues that exist with inside the Department of Corrections that are crushing the system and crushing the state budget. So they made it really clear that like if we get to figure setting, which is when they start to develop the budget for the Department of Corrections for this coming fiscal year and we still don't have a plan, uh, we're gonna have a different conversation. So yes, they got the beds, but because of that vote, uh, that happened with the joint budget committee, it shifted the entirety of the tide and the narrative and the conversation happening around, uh, the criminal justice reform bills, as well as, help, uh, folks who are inside and help the staff as well. Um, so a lot has changed because of that vote.
[00:02:55] Joybelle Phelan:
[00:02:55] Proposition 128 and an Increase in Prison Time
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[00:02:55] Joybelle Phelan: In case you don't follow CCJRC on social media, you should, um, if you want up to the date, up to the minute sorts of information. So I saw on one of, I don't remember when the post was, but you all were sharing some videos of okay testimony is not the right word, but people speaking. You know, legislative people. There was one where, um, I don't remember who it was, a lady was reading letters that had come from Incarcerated voices. Another one where people, you know, so they were very clearly asking some questions. I don't recall seeing that before.
So this is sort of a twofold question. So last year there was a ballot measure that many people voted for that increased the amount of time that people are spending in prison on their sentences.
So I'm sure we probably have some people listening who did vote for that bill. if we are those people who are concerned about their communities, concerned about public safety and they want people in prison. Mm-hmm. How is this bill [00:04:00] not advancing those measures?
[00:04:01] Kyle Giddings: Yeah. Uh, well, when it comes to that, uh, I wanna be really clear.
Uh, CCJRC does not argue that community absolutely has the right to respond when there's harm. There's no doubts about that. Uh, how we respond and how we react in the days following that harm are what matter most. And the justice system we put them in right now, the Department of Corrections is in a situation where, uh, there is no treatment.
There is no access to programs there. It is now becoming incredibly overcrowded and having folks go in based off. The initiative of 1 28 and having to serve 85% of their sentence is only setting up not only those folks, but the whole system to fall short and uh, fail. so I would ask the question back to folks who were for, uh, initiative, uh, 128
[00:04:51] What Does Justice Look Like for You?
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[00:04:51] Kyle Giddings: what does justice look like for you? Um, like is it someone having to serve 45 years for, uh, a, a crime and never getting a single day of earned time? 'cause we've seen in other states where they do have that
[00:05:05] Joybelle Phelan: mm-hmm.
[00:05:06] Kyle Giddings: Um, where. Like Arizona, where after they passed a similar truth in sentencing kind of structure, um, it became, their prisons became very overpopulated with older folks because that population ages while they're sitting in there.
[00:05:19] Joybelle Phelan: Right.
[00:05:20] Kyle Giddings: Obviously they become incredibly expensive as well because of medical costs. And the situation also becomes much more violent So is that the idea of like repayment to society? People have, because there was a time in history in this country where people who even committed very violent crimes served like usually no more than like 25 years, unless it, they were very heinous crimes and they needed to be go away for life without possibility of parole.
Like most violent crimes tend to be. Crimes of passion, um, where the person has very low recidivism rates and they go into prison, they got reformed and they worked through their issues. Um, we're not [00:06:00] in that system anymore,
[00:06:01] Joybelle Phelan: right
[00:06:01] Kyle Giddings: here in Colorado for sure. Maybe in other states, but not Colorado. the Department of Corrections is at a boiling point. It is not a place where many people get to go and like, turn their lives around anymore. It's like there are the, this past year, 2025, um.
[00:06:21] 45,000 Hours of Cross Posts by CDOC Staff
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[00:06:21] Kyle Giddings: Teachers, maintenance workers, um, as well as, uh, case managers and even the reentry parole officers, uh, did 45,000 hours of cross posts. So that means instead of doing their job, teaching classes, doing maintenance, um, or anything connected to the other jobs, instead of doing those jobs, they were doing security.
[00:06:44] Joybelle Phelan: They're sitting in a unit,
[00:06:46] Kyle Giddings: they're sitting in a unit doing security instead of teaching GED classes, teaching people the classes they need to get out on parole. Um, so while I agree there should, people should be held responsible for the choices they made, how we treat them once they were end up in the carceral system.
[00:07:03] Aspiring to A System Providing Proper Rehabilitation
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[00:07:03] Kyle Giddings: Making sure they actually get access to treatment and rehabilitation and move through the system, um, in a proper way that, that it's supposed to be designed to do, it's supposed to, it's supposed to be designed to rehabilitate people. Mm-hmm. Um, now we can have a long discussion about does prison actually really.
Rehabilitate people, but DOC is failing at the basics of providing classes. Yeah. Uh, the things they're required to have before they're allowed to go on to parole. Um, DOC is failing to safely manage their population. You know, there was a time in this country where, um, people convicted of violent crimes, which tend to be crimes of passion, uh, crimes were, um, it was a one-off low recidivism rates for folks like that.
Um. Faced like 25 years versus what people are facing now, 40 plus years and, and sometimes life without the possibility of parole. Um, and that doesn't [00:08:00] make sense to me. Uh, I would, so I would go back to ask 'em was like, what is your idea of justice? Is it someone turning their life around? Being rehabilitated and finding a new path forward, or is it, uh, someone sitting inside of a system that is at a boiling point without access to treatment or access to classes to better themselves.
[00:08:20] Joybelle Phelan: having the ability to go to classes to participate in things. Is important. And we've talked a little bit on past episodes, like the sex offender treatment. Mm-hmm. Um, the waiting lists for that are incredibly long,
[00:08:34] Kyle Giddings: super long.
[00:08:35] Joybelle Phelan: People are not able to get to the, you know, for a variety of reasons, no judgment. They can't get to treatment.
[00:08:42] Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:42] Joybelle Phelan: Um, but that's gonna be an issue that's gonna have to be addressed. Yeah. Uh, I know there's a lawsuit pending.
[00:08:47] Kyle Giddings: Yeah.
[00:08:47] Joybelle Phelan: But, you know, for people to get, you know. We want them to get treatment.
[00:08:51] State Reps Vote Against the DOC Supplemental Budget
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[00:08:51] Kyle Giddings: so to the videos you're talking about, the folks, uh, 12 members of the State House, um, voted against the DOC supplemental because they're like, what are we doing?
Mm-hmm. And this year when we're cutting healthcare, we're cutting higher education, were cutting, cutting access to basic programs that Colorado's depend on because our budget situation is so dire. Why are we giving the Department of Corrections 87 million more dollars to, uh, expand their prison capacity.
And, uh, medical caseload when maybe the people that are costing to stay a lot of money for medical care should be out in community, on Medicare. Medicare, where it costs way less for us instead of inside DOC where. They've likely aged out a crime and all that cost falls onto the state. There's no federal dollars to help with that.
Uh, why are there almost 5,000 people past parole eligibility sitting inside of the Department of Corrections right now? What about all the people sitting on the tabled list that can't, um, are stuck in this purgatory and can't get out? Um. What do we do about all those folks?
[00:09:56] Joybelle Phelan: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:56] Kyle Giddings: Um, and so the Representative Yara Zokaie, read the [00:10:00] letters from folks who are currently inside
[00:10:02] Joybelle Phelan: mm-hmm.
[00:10:02] Kyle Giddings: Um, about the dire, uh, situation that is going on. Mm-hmm. Big shout out to Legislative Inside for getting those letters and getting them into the representative's hands so she could go. It is not often or ever that someone, an elected official sits on the floor of the house or the Senate and reads the, the notes and the words of someone that is currently incarcerated in a prison. So it was a big deal. And so there was a lot of debate about what are we doing? You know, we spent only $11,000 to, uh, per student in Colorado, but we spent $57,000 for, uh, a prisoner for one year. That's not, that's if they're perfectly healthy, have no issues.
[00:10:41] What Are Base Costs of Incarceration?
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[00:10:41] Joybelle Phelan: So for folks who might not know, right, they don't understand. When we say it's gonna cost you on one end or the other, what sort of costs are we talking about?
[00:10:49] Kyle Giddings: Yeah, so, uh, the county is paid by the state, uh, $77 I believe it is per day per inmate who's sitting inside of a county jail waiting to go to the Department of Corrections. Mm-hmm. And so, um, they had to do a additional $3.3 million, I think it was to the jail backlog, uh, fund to pay for the people that are currently sitting there. There's over 700 people currently sitting in, in jail backlog. Some of the highest levels we've ever seen.
they only got 788 beds at the state level, and then another 135 I think it is at the private prisons, which are all the private prison beds that they're tapped. Mm-hmm. All the state beds are now tapped as well, so the jail backlog problem isn't gonna go away.
Mm-hmm. Once we move these people in to the Department of Corrections. it was just a very strange argument. like, yeah, okay, let's make sure we're not hurting the counties. Um, but at the same time, this doesn't actually solve the problem. It's the, the fact that there are 5,000 people passed their parole eligibility date stuck in the system.
Mm-hmm. 700 people on the tabled list for parole stuck in the system. And then there's, there's [00:12:00] over 800 Comm Corr [Community Corrections] beds that are funded waiting right now that have no one in them.
And the parole board is just deciding to let less people out. That's the problem.
[00:12:09] Community Corrections and Parole
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[00:12:09] Joybelle Phelan: So for folks at home who don't know, so community corrections and parole are two different things.
[00:12:14] Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:14] Joybelle Phelan: So as someone who is currently incarcerated, they can be eligible for community, meaning they can be living in a halfway house or transitional housing depending on their crime. Yes. Either 19 or nine months before their parole eligibility date.
[00:12:32] Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:32] Joybelle Phelan: They don't have to be accepted. Parole is they have passed that for whatever reason, they aren't going to community corrections, but they are now eligible to parole, meaning that they could go home to live at their mom's house, for example. And they, it's a different, so it's a different, there are two different things that he's talking about here, but they can go together.
[00:12:52] Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:53] Joybelle Phelan: So as we're talking about this, we have all of, as you just said, we have all of these community corrections or Comm Corr beds that are not full. Parole is releasing less people onto parole to live with their mom or whomever.
[00:13:06] Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:07] Joybelle Phelan: So what it means when someone is on the tabled list is they're waiting for a class to be done.
[00:13:12] Kyle Giddings: A class to be done. Some of them might be in community on the the ISPI status, which is an inmate status out in community. Um, but a lot of them are likely sitting around waiting for classes that don't exist for them
[00:13:26] Joybelle Phelan: or they can't get to because their teacher is posted
[00:13:29] Kyle Giddings: doing security instead exactly.
[00:13:31] The Joint Budget Committee Decisions Spurring New Conversations
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[00:13:31] Joybelle Phelan: Okay. So that answers some of that. so you mentioned that these conversations were spurring other conversations is there anything that you can speak to to that? Is there anything you're starting to see about those?
[00:13:44] Kyle Giddings: Yeah, so there's a few things that are starting to really move through the system really well. Um, since the win at JBC, the Governor's Office and the Department of Corrections have been engaging with us on the Prison Population Management Measures to help those folks who are stuck in the red [00:14:00] tape, stuck in the purgatory of, uh, not being able to get a class inside of DOC.
Um, and we're trying to work with the DOC right now to amend PPMM to create more buckets of people who should be qualified to go out back into community. And so they're working in good faith with us and because that tide has shifted, um, and then also, uh, there's a working group that's being discussed right now.
A, um, independent from the legislature. Um, working group that is, um, or I guess I should say independent from the Department of Corrections. Okay. Um, who would be, have members appointed from community as well as staff from the DOC, probably some DOC folks too. And then, um, some pro, probably members from the governor's office who all have the ability to help fix the structural issues going on in DOC. You know, we've been passing trying, or at least trying to pass one bill at a time. Mm-hmm. Try to fix the issues inside of DOC, and it's just clear that those days are gone. Like we can't just, if we just passed one bill a year, we'd be here. It would never be fixed.
And so we need a group who's working together to create a plan and then has power to help implement that plan and fix the structural issues, the bottlenecks that are happening with, uh, folks getting stuck and not being able to get out of onto parole.
[00:15:20] What are the Structural Issues in CDOC?
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[00:15:20] Joybelle Phelan: Some folks at home might not understand what this means so can we talk about what some of those structural issues are? What, what are you seeing that, what needs that sort of attention?
[00:15:28] Kyle Giddings: Yeah, there's like. Uh, concord acceptance rates. Um, right now they're abysmal in some counties great in other counties, so fixing that kind of stuff.
[00:15:38] Joybelle Phelan: Okay.
[00:15:38] Kyle Giddings: Um, that's one bottleneck.
So people just being accepted into community corrections slash halfway houses. Uh, another one of the bottlenecks is the, um, maybe we should create a pathway for people to get the required treatment or classes in community who are just stuck in there with no access to treatment or, or, um, or classes. [00:16:00] Uh uh, another one is if you're like already within, uh, 120 days of your mandatory release date. Let's give you 60 days of earned time and you start planning your parole plan and you get out. so just like cleaning up the system and cutting away the red tape, mainly just to help the populations who can get out, get out, um. And so yeah, we're really excited to like be working with everybody to like try to get that across the finish line.
And we're talking with members of JBC, the joint budget Committee about like how this is something we really think could help manage the population and it's not gonna fix the problem. Structural, the other structural issues of, um, the lack of accountability with the parole board. Parole board, not releasing people, um, as well as, uh, the broader conversation about access to treatment for like, uh, people with sex offenses.
There's currently litigation going on around that. Uh, there's a lot of things that, like this bill won't fix, but it is like a beginning to help take some of the pressure, you know, you have a pressure cooker, um, which the DOC is a pressure cooker right now. Uh, it, they're, right now it's being, I often refer to it as riot soup, what they're doing. Um, but you know, at the top of your pressure cooker, you have that little thing that releases steam. PPMM would help release the steam to keep it from popping.
[00:17:24] Unknown: And so that is our goal, um, is with that bill and the working group. Making sure community is involved with it mm-hmm. And making sure that it's structured well.
[00:17:32] Kyle Giddings: Where it's not just a bunch of Department of Corrections bureaucrats and governor office bureaucrats working to create a plan, um, without having like expert knowledge of inside the system or as well as how the system has worked. You know, Christy Donner, our executive director, has been doing this work for 25 years.
so she knows a lot about DOC, so, um, she should be part of that conversation.We've been advocating for people inside since day one, and so we need to make sure [00:18:00] maybe Legislation Inside's getting plugged in. I'm not sure, but I'm, I'm excited to see what it does become.
[00:18:05] Second Look Bills
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[00:18:05] Kyle Giddings: But to say that the conversation has changed and the tide has changed would be an understatement. Okay. There's a couple second look bills that are coming. Uh, one of them was introduced that would help folks who were convicted, uh, when they were 21 years or younger.
As long as they've served, uh, at least 20 years of their sentence, um, for violent crimes that they would have a path forward to get out sooner.
it also helps folks who are 60 years and older who have, uh, medical conditions or have just served a large chunk of their sentence.
help them get out as well. Okay. And so there's, that's a second look Bill. Um, it, it would allow create earlier parole eligibility dates.
and then I know there's one coming down related to helping people who were victims of crimes who had to commit a crime to escape their situation. human trafficking or domestic abuse situations who are inside helping get them a second look Okay. And get them out sooner.
but those have just been introduced, so there's. Lots of things could still happen
Lots of things could still happen with them. I'd be curious to see where everything ends. It's very early in session. Uh, it feels like it's day 800 already of session of 120 day session, but we're only like four or five weeks in now. So we'll keep you guys in the loop.
[00:19:18] How Can CRJ Listeners Engage?
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[00:19:18] Joybelle Phelan: so if we're somebody that heard everything you just said mm-hmm. And they're, however they are concerned that people are gonna get out sooner. How do we respond to those people? How do we reassure them that we care about public safety? That, that the measures being discussed and potentially implemented are not releasing dangerous people back next door to them?
[00:19:46] Kyle Giddings: Yeah, so the PPMM [Prison Population Management Measures] is like very specifically focused on helping people that have, uh, already proven that they are ready to go back to the community. So they're in lower security [00:20:00] levels inside of the permit correction. So they're in the like the lowest supervision levels. Okay. So people that have proven inside of the institution that they have like rehabilitated themselves, and they're also people that have, were convicted of lower level felonies it's none of the, uh, top tier violent felonies that are, uh, PPMM addresses.
a great deal of the population are these lower level folks who are just like clogging up the system or these people that are going in past their parole eligibility date and are stuck there for a year anyway.
So this bill does not put people convicted of, uh, violent offenses back on the streets. It helps get the,
[00:20:36] Lower Level Offenses
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[00:20:36] Kyle Giddings: the lower level offense Folks who have worked to rehabilitate themselves while they're inside have proven it by, uh, being out of the system, um, are being in the lower levels of the prison system back home where they should be.
Because why should someone, why is the Department of Corrections running prisons that don't even have a fence around them? Some of the lower level prisons. Mm-hmm. Don't even have a fence.
if they've proven that they deserve to be in a facility that doesn't even have a fence, then maybe they've proven to be able to go home.
[00:21:05] A New Edition of "The Go Guide"
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[00:21:05] Joybelle Phelan: So in more exciting news
[00:21:07] Kyle Giddings: Yes.
[00:21:08] Joybelle Phelan: The Go Guide, the seventh Edition, is that right?
[00:21:11] Kyle Giddings: Seventh, seventh Edition. Yep.
[00:21:13] Joybelle Phelan: That's much. That's big and fat.
[00:21:15] Kyle Giddings: Yeah. This is a thick, thick boy right here. Um, they've been thinner in the past, but this is, uh, everything you need to know about - Comprehensive - getting on after getting out. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Um, so yeah, from page one, walking people through their first days inside of prison. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, hey, you have, um, uh, a.
[00:21:37] Joybelle Phelan: Child
[00:21:37] Kyle Giddings: support, child support payment, how do you file the paperwork? What do you do? Yep. You're not gonna
[00:21:41] Joybelle Phelan: make that payment.
[00:21:41] Kyle Giddings: You're not gonna make that payment, so you should file paperwork to deal with that.
[00:21:44] Joybelle Phelan: Right.
[00:21:45] Kyle Giddings: Um, all the way through how to write a parole plan. Mm-hmm. What are things you should look at, um, to, uh, reentry sites that you could go reenter at? Um, WAGEES, um, all, all those, all that information. Is in this [00:22:00] beautiful book written by our dear Pam Clifton.
This is the seventh edition. Should be hitting tablets here really soon, hopefully. Um,
[00:22:07] Joybelle Phelan: so what that does mean is that, so it's on their tablets inside the prison system. Mm-hmm. They are available for purchase at the C-C-J-R-C website. Is that
[00:22:16] Kyle Giddings: that? Yep. You 10 bucks. Very expensive.
[00:22:18] Joybelle Phelan: Yeah.
[00:22:19] Kyle Giddings: Yep. So you pretty much cover the cost of printing.
[00:22:21] Joybelle Phelan: Right. If that, so, but we do offer that, you know, some folks like. I'm a book reader myself. I like a physical book, not, I don't do this Kindle thing that people do. Mm-hmm. Um, so if you have a loved one in your life that maybe does prefer a book. Um, you know, it is possible to have books sent inside. You can order them online at the CCJRC website.
[00:22:41] Kyle Giddings: Yes. I moved 12 pallets of books into our basement. So please buy some physical books if you would like them.
[00:22:47] Joybelle Phelan: Yeah. 'cause otherwise, um, you know, they're available at wages, partners at there,
[00:22:51] Kyle Giddings: wages partners, parole offices. Yep. But if you want to be able to look at a physical copy while inside. DOC has bought a limited amount of physical copies, but uh, your loved one should be able to order, be able to order you one.
[00:23:04] Legislation Inside
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[00:23:04] Joybelle Phelan: is there anything we can talk, like do you know anything that's happening with Legislation Inside?
Is there anything. Any bills happening?
[00:23:10] Kyle Giddings: I know Korey Wise Innocence Project is part of the second look.
[00:23:14] Joybelle Phelan: Okay.
[00:23:15] Kyle Giddings: Bill. But I haven't seen any specific bills come through with them.
I know. I'm trying to think. There's a lot of really bad bills.
[00:23:22] Joybelle Phelan:
[00:23:22] What Makes a Bad Criminal Justice Bill?
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[00:23:22] Joybelle Phelan: what, what makes a bill a really bad bill?
[00:23:24] Kyle Giddings: Yeah. Bills that rewrite sentencing for no good reason besides playing into politics.
There's one around retail theft that's coming. Uh, there's Senate bill 70 and 71, which are like specifically around. We're supposed to be addressing human trafficking issues and like making sure people are being charged with the right crime if they're trafficking people.
but it also rewrites whole sections of like, uh, the sexual assault charges. So it just wraps a bunch of other stuff into it. Okay. To create like indeterminate sentences and like create, uh, the possibility for life without the possibility of [00:24:00] parole.
[00:24:00] Joybelle Phelan: Oh wow.
[00:24:00] Kyle Giddings: For some of 'em. And, uh, they're kind of sailing through, I'm gonna be honest with you, because they have bipartisan support to push 'em through. And it's, uh, I don't know how we stop 'em if I'm being completely honest. Um, now when we run into bills that we can't stop and we know we're gonna make it through. How do we make 'em better?
[00:24:19] Joybelle Phelan: Right?
[00:24:20] Kyle Giddings: And so that's, uh, the Public Defender's Office and the criminal defense bar have kind of taken the lead on that, on making 'em better.
[00:24:26] Joybelle Phelan: Okay.
[00:24:27] Kyle Giddings: Um,
[00:24:27] Making a Problematic Bill Better
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[00:24:27] Joybelle Phelan: what does that mean? How do we make a bill like that? How do we make something like that
[00:24:30] Kyle Giddings: happen? Oh, gosh, yeah. How do we rewrite the attempted rewrite of the sentencing structure. Like, okay, you say this, but let, let's add provisions that allow for first time offenders to be redirected in a different direction instead of prison. That kind of stuff. Okay, so how do we tweak the knobs of justice to make it to where folks are able to avoid going to prison because it eliminates - if I understand it correctly, and I might be speaking wrong, but from what I've been told - is that it eliminates all the parole, probation eligibility on every single one of those crimes.
[00:25:04] Joybelle Phelan: And so it would all be county or prison time.
So that's a big change though, from where it is right now.
[00:25:09] Kyle Giddings: Huge change. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. Um, yes, Senate Bills 70 and 71. Go read them if you are interested. Uh, or reach out to the Public Defender's Office, their policy person, James Karbach Or, uh, reach out to the CCDB, which is the Colorado Criminal Defense Bar.
There are the points on it and are working to try to make things better in that end.
[00:25:33] Joybelle Phelan: Well, thank you so much for your time today, Kyle.
[00:25:35] Kyle Giddings: Yep thanks Joybelle, always good to be here with you and everyone on the other side of the lens
[00:25:39] Joybelle Phelan: you have been listening to up to the Minute on Colorado Radio for Justice.