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The Thin Veil is a show for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of Palestine—and what Palestine can reveal about the systems shaping our world. Hosted by musician/activist and anti-Zionist Jew Ezra Lipp, who was raised in a Zionist ecosystem and is now, as always, on a continuing journey of learning and unlearning.
Through long-form conversations with historians, journalists, artists, activists, and people with lived experience, the show explores Palestine not in isolation, but as a window into questions of power, history, identity, media, ideology, resistance, and the stories we inherit about the world around us.
[00:00:00] Coming up on The Thin Veil
Esther Azar: In order to stop the genocide, we need to start seeing Zionism as the operating system, not Judaism.
Because if we just see Judaism or Jews as the operating system, then that means that we will only target Jews to end the genocide.
In order to end the genocide, we need to target Zionists. The whole plethora of Zionists, which means Christian Zionists, Jewish Zionists, Western Zionists that are just imperialists all of those people. And that's why I'm fighting for this. It's not about protecting Jewish Zionists.
If Israel loses power, the genocide doesn't end. Western power is too invested in removing the native population in colonial systems.
Donald Trump is building a military base. They're not interested in having a native population there. It is the antithesis of colonial rule.
Well, hello [00:01:00] again, and welcome back to The Thin Veil. We have a very special episode for you today. we are breaking our normal release schedule, to present you this episode on a Monday because we are experimenting with a new segment. And I mentioned in last week's episode with Dr. Mark Brauner it's a fabulous episode, incredibly powerful if you haven't listened to it yet, but I dropped a little hint that, I might be bringing on a more, long-term collaborator for this project.
And, yes, that is the case, and you will, very shortly, be receiving the, the pilot run of that collaboration and experimenting with, a new segment that, we're doing. we're gonna call for the moment The Thin Veil Unfiltered, and that is conversations with myself and a past guest, Thin Veil Hall of Famer, Rabbi Esther Azar.
Rabbi Esther was on the podcast just a few [00:02:00] episodes ago. We had a very powerful conversation, and Anyway, you're gonna hear more of the story momentarily. But if you're a lis- new listener, thank you for being here. If you're a returning listener, you know what to do. Leave a five-star review and rating, subscribe, hit the notification bell.
It really helps. I really appreciate it. There's a Patreon page, patreon.com\thethinveilpod, or a Ko-fi page, ko-fi.com\thethinveilpod,
if you'd like to become a monthly subscriber Or just leave a one-time donation on ti- or tip on Ko-fi. I would so appreciate it. we should have our regular schedule episodes coming out this coming Wednesday. Again, another fantastic interview
If I finish the editing in time, it is a mad dash every week. I put a ton of work into getting you these conversations and episodes. So thank you for being here and listening. Without further ado, please enjoy the first segment of The Thin Veil Unfiltered with myself and [00:03:00] Hakham Esther Azar.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So Esther, Esther, , Azar. Azar. Azar, thank you. I n- I knew I got that wrong. It's like the... Yeah, Azar. Okay. So Esther Azar, welcome to The Thin Veil. What are we doing here? Um, Allow me to answer my own question.
esther: Oh, I'm gonna let you answer? Okay, go ahead
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: don't know. Well, you hesitated. . Yeah, let me step in just for a second
esther: So here we are, Ezra and Esther Azar,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Esther, you might know from a previous episode of The Thin Veil. She came on and gave a very powerful interview, which a lot of people, a lot of listeners responded very positively to. But Esther and I go back not too long, but f-
esther: A month?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: no, four, five, six months maybe. I'd say at least six maybe. A- and I first encountered you through [00:04:00] your online videos and doing these sh- short form monologue videos calling out anti-Zionism, calling out Zionism as an anti-Zionist rabbi.
And,
esther: sometimes I do call out anti-Zionism
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. That, and that, that might be something we, we talk about today. But you are an anti-Zionist, so you critique it from within
esther: I don't actually know what I call myself anymore.
I am anti-Zionism, but I don't know that I call myself an anti-Zionist
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. Maybe that is something we could help discuss and define. But anyway, what I'm getting at is that I was inspired by your videos andI actually reached out to request some sort of uh, counseling at the time, you could say. Some,
esther: More like coaching
coaching. I don't do counseling
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: sure.
But some emotional coaching for how to cope with [00:05:00] uh, coming to terms with being an anti-Zionist living in the cult of Zionism that we are experiencing. And forgive me if that language doesn't sit right with anyone, but I can defend it. anyway, and then after that, I also had an ulterior motive that I actually thought maybe we could collaborate in some way.
And you said, "I don't know."
esther: That's not exactly what I said, Ezra
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Then why don't you, why don't you take it from here?
esther: I said, "Let's see if we have chemistry and if we could do this together." And then we did it, but my life was a lot in chaos and according to you, it wasn't as great as we hoped, but I have no
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I don't remember saying that
esther: was so chaotic. Yesterday you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No. No. I said--
esther: That's what
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No no. I didn't say that the content we created wasn't as great as I thought at all and nor do I have much of a recollection of what we said. [00:06:00] I just said the follow-up communication around like what this could be
esther: Let me tell you what the follow-up communication
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Please tell me
esther: The follow-up communication was, "Esther, I've decided to start a podcast."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The
esther: And I, and then, and I went, "Oh, okay." And a week later, there was podcast
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I think , I think it's why, litigate the past is what I say
esther: It was like last week, but okay.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I think there are other ins and outs. I think the timeframe is maybe a little bit misleading. I think there, there-- I know there's a series of emails, at least like 17 or 18 back and forth, where we like discussing an LLC
esther: address.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: stuff that I don't think you do. Anyway, the point is, here we are.
Let bygones be bygones. Here we are, round two, take two. We [00:07:00] decided that, hey, maybe actually it is a good idea that if we collaborate on a podcast and r-r... Okay, now I'm confused. What happened? Okay
esther: I said, "Ezra, could you just interview me forever? That will just be my podcast
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: That's true.
esther: just me speaking
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: true. And then, okay, yeah, that's true. And then I said, "I'm not sure I wanna do that. What if we just talk on my podcast more often?" Is that
esther: Oh, is that what's... I don't remember that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Well,
esther: remember us coming into a meeting and then you saying, and then me going, "I think maybe this should be a collaboration." And then you going, "That's what I was thinking,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The-- Okay, that, I think that's actually more accurate. That's-- but the end result of it i-is the same, which is that we are experimenting with a new format of integrating it into the existing format of personal interviews that people have come to expect and know and [00:08:00] love from The Thin Veil.
We're trying a new format integrating more fully my friend Rabbi Esther Azer, and we're unsure where it's gonna lead. Do it again. Do what again? Did- Did I say it, your name wrong again?
esther: yes, you did. Azar
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. Integrating my new friend, Rabbi Esther Azar.
I got it right. into The Thin Veil and seeing what we can do together. And the list of ideas right now are wide, but we're gonna try this pilot conversation to hit the ground running and see what it's like.
So yeah, so a topic we talked about today is in some ways a follow-up to a core point that you brought up in our last conversation on this podcast which is something that I edited down into a couple clips that got a lot [00:09:00] of response on social media, and I would say were met with some positive criticism or some, some positive critique.
Yeah a lot of negative criticism, and then I'd say I'd say a lot of like, just confusion and misunderstanding.
esther: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: On this show, we're used to the clips getting a lot of pushback from Zionists because this is an anti-- I'm coming from a place of anti-Zionist advocacy.
esther: I will allow you to say that the show is anti-Zionist
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, thank you. However, I-- But w- I think the pushback we were getting largely entailed people in the anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian camp that felt like the argument you were making, , was somehow, , relieving or displacing responsibility, , against Jews and the Jewish community or the Zionist Jewish community [00:10:00] for, , the genocide happening in Gaza and all the other atrocities and horrible things that, , has been a result of the material realities that Zionism has brought into the world.
But I know that's not exactly what you're saying, and I think this point needs further clarification, so maybe we could just use that as a jumping-off point.
Split
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Origin of antisemtism
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Lingustictic antisemitism argumen
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Philosemitism
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esther: Before we get too much further in this, I do want to say something that we spoke about the other day just for the listeners,
Ezra Lipp: what we wanna be conscious of is that, , ultimately, like The Thin Veil, I believe, should be a show that, , uplifts the Palestinian perspective as much as possible. , So having a Jewish anti-Zionist, , as well as a Jewish anti-Zionist rabbi
we just need to, ... Esther and I spoke about this the other day, just be conscious not... Like we don't want this to become too much about [00:11:00] centering Jewish stories or Jewish discourse, , and certainly not Jewish feelings. , So I just wanna say I don't exactly know like what we're gonna be talking about coming up, but do you think it's, it's fair to preface this conversation by naming that, Esther?
Esther Azar: I think , we always want to be uplifting and thinking about the Palestinian voice,
Who is our audience?
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Esther Azar: And-- I think that one of the things that I particularly face is a sense that I'm not fighting for Palestinian liberation when I am speaking to Jews.
you've said to me before that your hope is to speak to liberal Zionists. And I think sometimes... I think that sometimes for me, it feels like in my conversations, I might be centering Jews because my goal is to come to a place where we're centering Palestinians, those of us that aren't right now centering Palestinians, right?
So basically, I'm trying to move people along, and so in the process of doing that, that means that sometimes I have to speak from a [00:12:00] Jewish place and not be centering that narrative all the time because of the work that I'm trying to do.
And I think that, that... it's complicated because it, it it's harmful. It's harmful, and sometimes I make that choice. It's harmful to not be centering Palestinians when Pala-Palestinians are being murdered.
Ezra Lipp: Right.
But that, that's true, but then as you said, which I think is valid, I think more Jewish people need to understand the importance of listening to Palestinians. And right now, I think a lot of people aren't gonna get there unless they sadly, unfortunately, tragically hear it, , from people like you and I
Esther Azar: Yeah. I hope that they get there. I really don't give a fuck how they get there,
to be honest with you, at this point.
Who the fuck Cares that it's Jews
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explaining 85% 15%
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Ezra Lipp: Okay, so this is the conversation that we- we've been having, which is, who the fuck cares that it's [00:13:00] Jews?
Esther Azar: That's what I call the argument. which is basically saying that Western power has used the idea of Jew and the Jew in order to, colonize Palestine, and Jews have taken on this narrative, but, , it's purposeful for the Western world to have it be Jews taking on this narrative, and that the way to really have collective liberation and the way to really end the genocide is to actually, , stop identifying the Jewish part and start identifying everybody as Western settler colonials because they're part of one Western Zionist monolithic group.
And each time we separate them into parts, we do the work of divide and conquer, and that limits our efficacy
My concern is, that the US will just take over, that they might not be supporting Israel, but that the genocide will continue because that's what the West desires. And so in order to shut this down [00:14:00] fully, we can't just say Israel is the problem. We have to keep talking about the whole system, and not just the Jewish part, and not just the Israeli part.
Ezra Lipp: I think that makes sense to me. , However,it is complicated because the, vast majority of Jewish communities in this country and in, in Western countries like still identify Israel as the Jewish state, and Israel still self-identifies as the Jewish state. and Particularly when people hear Jews saying it's not Jews doing this, which you say, and I know you say it in a very different way than other people.
Okay, please interrupt
Esther Azar: I'm not saying that it's not Jews doing it, I'm saying it's not their Jewish parts doing it. I'm saying that the parts that are colonizing are the parts that they learned from living in Europe, in the Western world
, I feel like there's a couple ways to break this down as I [00:15:00] understand it. , One is I think by articulating the argument that you are, It's doing the work of, saying that, when we talk about Jews in this way, we are ignoring the huge amount of Christian Zionists that are also Zionists, that are also a huge part of why this, project of Zionism and Israel and its dominance, , regional dominance and integration into the US empire has been possible.
Ezra Lipp: , So we are deflecting that responsibility off a,a, I think even a, a larger demographic than, than Jews worldwide.
Esther Azar: 10 times the amount
Ezra Lipp: or... Right. So that, that's kind of huge, so that's, that's one thing. and I'm just trying to articulate this back to you to make sure that I'm understanding it correctly as well.
I think you're saying that yes, of course, many Jews too are also Zionists. However, they're not [00:16:00] acting in their Judaism, in their Jewish values in the way that you understand as a rabbi that Judaism should be interpreted. Maybe not?
Esther Azar: I wouldn't go that far,
I would say though that they've internalized Western narratives
and
Ezra Lipp: so that's,... I'm glad you said that because you had said last time, "They're not Jews, they're Zionists." And I would say, "Okay, but actually they're both." and because even someone who has a very different interpretation of Jew- Like I have a certain interpretation of the Jewish values that I was raised on, which are basically universal values of kindness and healing the world, And I'm not a religious Jew at all. I don't really know what it means to be a secular Jew these days, but I'm certainly not a religious Jew these days. but, I know that, it would be laughable for me to say that the Hasidic Jew, the Lubavitch Jew, [00:17:00] aren't Jews
because I see them as more extremist or more fundamentalist. Like, of course, They're way more connected to the text than I've ever been. , Whether or not I agree with how they, , or respect or admire how they, practice that Judaism in their life But, like, I'm not gonna argue that they're not Jewish.
Esther Azar: let me clarify what I meant when I said that. I, I meant as an identity marker.
I think that this conversation does something in that it switches between religious identity and cultural identity or ethnicity. In here, you just brought in your Jewish values, but at the same time, we're talking about a people.
Jews are defined as a people now. That's why you can have cultural Jews and religious Jews. They're part of this peoplehood. And so I think that we mix those two things, and they need to be separated because the arguments don't stack up
Because when I said that they're not [00:18:00] Jews, they're Zionists, I meant they don't care about any Jews that are not Zionists. So when the claim of antisemitism shows up, they only care about Zionism. So they don't have a problem with me being attacked. I'm a Jew. They don't care. And that's why I said that they're Zionists and not Jews, because the priority for them in peoplehood is Zionism, and antisemitism falls under Zionism for them
Ezra Lipp: Sure, but would it, would perhaps a more clarifying language be they're Zionists first, Jews second?
Esther Azar: , Yeah, except un-unless we're talking about antisemitism. How can you consider yourself part of the Jewish people and concerned about antisemitism if you don't care about Jews that are not Zionists? That's the part that I don't understand. [00:19:00] How could they go into Iraq, I said this last time, and bomb synagogues in Iraq to scare the Jewish population?
Esther Azar: how could they not welcome in all Jews from Europe when the Nazis were in power? How could they only welcome in the wealthy Jews? They actually made an active choice not to bring in poor Jews. They didn't want Eastern European Jews. They only wanted wealthy, Jews with prestige.
Esther Azar: H-how can we talk about this as a Jewish thing? How can we have this idea of Jew that's not, that they're claiming, "Oh, we're a country for all Jews," when in reality that's not true. They're a country for all Zionists
Ezra Lipp: having a hard time understanding why...
How could zionism by jewish if there are christian zionists
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Esther Azar: we have Christian Zionists, we have Jewish Zionists, but when you talk about Jewish Zionists, we say that their Zionism is their Judaism.
N-Now, how could that be true if Christians are Zionists too? [00:20:00] Does that mean that Christians are expressing their Judaism? Where does the logic go?
Ezra Lipp: Yeah
Esther Azar: Either Zionism is Judaism or it's not. if you wanna say that Zionism is Jewish supremacy, how do you account for Christians who certainly think that they are at the top of the heap?
Do you think that they think that Jews are the supreme beings?
Like I, the logic doesn't work, and I get that it's-- it might just be semantics, but there's some meaning in here that I think is important to grapple with because the reality is , the thing that organizes everybody is Zionism. Their religious identity is a separate thing
Ezra Lipp: I think this is important but it is very nuanced and again, like I thinkit's just hard, especially from
I wanna say a non-Jewish perspective, , as somebody just following the genocide, or a victim [00:21:00] of, , Zionism that, that just sees two Jews saying, "Well, actually, this isn't really Jewish supremacy, and it's not really the Jews doing this," when again, every single Jewish institution in the country is standing with Israel.
,
Esther Azar: I'm not saying
Ezra Lipp: I... And I, andI understand you're saying the argument is that it's... They're not being motivated by their Judaism, they're being motivated by their Zionism. could we agree with that, kind of general assumption?
Esther Azar: I, it's a little s- it's always sticky. Everything's gonna be sticky
I just wanna talk about why. Why do I care so much? And I touched on this in the beginning. I care so much because
I-- In order to stop the genocide, we need to start seeing Zionism as the operating system, not Judaism.
Because if we just see Judaism as the operating system, or Jews as the operating system, then that means that we will only [00:22:00] target Jews to end the genocide.
In order to end the genocide, we need to target Zionists. The whole plethora of Zionists, which means Christian Zionists, Jewish Zionists, Western Zionists that are just imperialists in their dreams, all of those people. And that's why I'm fighting for this, not because It's not about protecting Jewish Zionists.
It's about making sure that we are not doing the divide and conquer for the system. This is what they want us to do. Their goal is for us to focus on the Jewishness because they know that antisemitism is always just beneath the surface, and it's an easy thing to access. They know this.
They've done it before in Europe many times, where they put Jews in the position of power, and then when the masses got upset, they named the Jews as the problem and hid behind them. It's the same story
Ezra Lipp: I think that is a,m-more clear and direct way to name it by just [00:23:00] not deflecting what somebody might misunderstand as deflecting blame off Jews, but just widening the blame to include not just Jewish Zionists, which many Jews are, but Christian Zionistsand just imperialists that line up with Zionists that might be non-Jewish.
To me, that, that is like a, a easier, framework to hold in my head. So I appreciate you saying that. , I guess where I was just going earlier is that, I agree with you 100% that we need to be naming all of this and targeting all those systems. , However, from where I'm coming from, and I would imagine to an extent where you're coming from, the people that I know the most and have the most access to are the Jewish Zionists still.
Esther Azar: Yep
Ezra Lipp: and I think it is incredibly important that those communities, A, [00:24:00] stop supporting Zionism and Israel in its current iteration of apartheid and genocide and ethnic cleansing, and take responsibility for the harm that, , those communities have allowed, that have, , been participating in. and I think that's where, I think that's where a lot of the, the pushback we were seeing on Instagram or the misinterpretation was happening when people didn't realize you were not trying to deflect responsibility, you were just trying to not name exclusive responsibility, , onto the Jewish Zionists.
, And that is a nuanced point, but yeah, I agree that it is worth, naming and advocating for
Esther Azar: I do want Jewish Zionists to not be supporting genocide, to not be supporting Zionism. And It feels important for me to be focusing on the larger system because it doesn't feel like other people are
Ezra Lipp: Hmm
Esther Azar: I know that they are, but not, they're not naming this [00:25:00] thing
Ezra Lipp: Yeah, it's true
Esther Azar: and, , and I think again, like we want-- what's the goal? Why do we wanna turn Jewish Zionists?
if the goal is we wanna turn Jewish Zionists, like what I heard in what you said was like, we wanna turn Jewish Zionists because we want them to stop supporting genocide. I don't give a fuck who stops supporting genocide. I want the genocide to end. So let's just get the genocide to end. it-- like of course, I don't want people to support genocide, but it's not about getting them to stop supporting genocide.
Yeah, that would be great, but I would much rather end the fucking genocide. How about that?
Ezra Lipp: Now, w- and then, but when you say it like that, why do you... what does that mean as opposed to
Esther Azar: Because I think that if we just focus in on the Jewish Zionists, like if we keep focusing in on the Jewish Zionists and not on the whole, the genocide continues. The, the genocide doesn't end. If [00:26:00] Israel loses power, the genocide doesn't end. Western power is too invested in removing the native population in colonial systems.
Donald Trump is building a military base. They're not interested in having a native population there. It is the antithesis of colonial rule, and so their goal is to get rid of them, no matter what, whether Israel's in power or not. And their other dream is to have Armageddon, and so that doesn't keep Palestinians safe either.
So until we, get into the depths of this thing, until we, we start naming Zionists as a whole and not breaking it down into Jewish Zionists and Jewish supremacy... Again, I don't know how many times to say this, but, we're creating the divide and conquer that they need to cover themselves so that we can attack Jewish Zionists and attack Israel, while on the side they're making deals to continue everything and destroy [00:27:00] Palestine.
Possible post
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Esther Azar: and this is the way antisemitism works. That's the thing that I keep wanting to go back to. When people are like, "Oh, why are you talking about antisemitism?" Because this is antisemitism. Zionism itself is using Jews to do Zionism and focusing in on the Jewish part. That is the living, breathing embodiment of antisemitism, which is using the Jew to seem like they're the ones with the power, the powerful, and so that we attack them instead of attacking the system that's giving them the power.
Ezra Lipp: But hard to see because it looks like Israel has all the power
Sure. Yeah. and I'm with you, I just wanna, make sure I'm tracking all this. But you are acknowledging that there also are many Jewish people, even if they're not acting within, what we might interpret, like, Jewish ethics and morals.
there are many Jewish people that are also part of the dominant part of that system [00:28:00] too
Bilbical text of domination
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Are there Jewsih zionists in the power class
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Esther Azar: you'd clearly acknowledge that there are some, if not many... Yeah. Jewish Zionists with power.
Yes, Jewish Zionists with power that they've been bequeathed by the West. Can that power be taken away at any instant? Yes. Do they have it right now? Yes
Do you agree with me that it could be taken away or you don't think so?
Ezra Lipp: , D- are you saying it could be taken away more than it could be taken away by any Western imperialist because of their Jewishness?
Esther Azar: I'm saying that, , Jews are given privileges, and then when the masses of people start to get upset, the leadership turns on Jews in order to cover their asses, and that's the moment where the privilege is lost
Ezra Lipp: I-- See, I guess where I differ is Maybe this is what I'm trying to articulate. It's like I still think there are plenty of [00:29:00] Jewish people, not exclusively Jewish people, but plenty of Jewish people that are part of that leadership class, like the Epstein class, Might they turn on other Jews? Maybe. Might Western powers as a whole turn on like the greater Jewish community? Maybe. But like I don't see like people people like Epstein himself or, other like extremely wealthy people in a position where they're vulnerable because they're Jewish.
But
Esther Azar: I hear what you're saying. I just wanna think about that for a second.
this is not fully fleshed out, but, if we see them as Zionists, then we can understand why they have that position of power, right? That... and if it comes down to the white Christian, the white Christian Zionist and the white Jewish Zionist, who's gonna get the pass?
Obviously, the white Christian Zionist is gonna get the pass in my analysis. but, , but the key here is Zionism, and that's why-- And that's part of the reason why I wanna argue that the Jew is just a separate thing, that they've accepted the imperialist [00:30:00] story. Maybe my argument breaks down a little.
, I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm sure that I will think about it and come up with a solution, but I don't have it yet
Ezra Lipp: Either way, I think your point holds that this is a bigger, wider issue that we need to be fighting against all, , people, , in power , complicit in systems of supremacy or complicit isn't the right word, but, active in systems of Zionist supremacy.
Centering Jewish feelings
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Trauma Response/ethnostate (cut?)
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Esther Azar: Do you think we're doing the wrong thing?
Ezra Lipp: Right now or in By hosting a, by, by having a podcast two Jews
No, not necessarily.
Esther Azar: I'm reflecting back about, I'm reflecting back on
Ezra Lipp: The, centering of Palestinian voices
Esther Azar: yeah, versus our voices, and I just don't know, like I, I don't know when it's like, , when it's performative and when, and like [00:31:00] I don't wanna be performative, so I don't wanna say that I'm centering Palestinian voices always without having a reason.
there's a specific reason why I think that Jews need to have this conversation, even though I wanna say that that it's not about Jews.
I'm confused by the whole thing, and,I don't wanna center... I don't wanna say that. I know that it's not the right thing to say, but I, I'm not supposed to center Jewish feelings.
But I can't speak to Palestinians. My work is in the Jewish community. I have to center Jewish feelings in order to do the work. what am I supposed to do with that? H- how do I, h- how do I reconcile that?
I'm not saying that we should let people be victims and,
just haveJewish fragility and, support that
Ezra Lipp: I, I guess my response to that was that maybe I think
centering...
Jewish voices, may- maybe [00:32:00] that's not even the right word. But I think like acknowledging that this is an ongoing conversation that needs to happen in the Jewish community
and if you wanna call that centering Jewish feelings is not the same as placating Jewish feelings.
Esther Azar: We're just trying to end a genocide, and we're gonna come at it like I said to you.
Did I say this to you? I'm just throwing rocks at walls and hoping that something sticks. So I'm gonna try every fucking way to get this conversation across, and if that means pandering to Jewish feelings in order to do that, then that's what I'm gonna do. Because you know what? I don't care about looking bad.
I care about ending a genocide
Ezra Lipp: Yeah. I think that's fair. I think where my, my instinct, if I could add to that sentiment, how I think about it, how I've been trying to approach it I think it's okay to acknowledge that probably more Jews and Jewish people are gonna [00:33:00] listen to my podcast than non-Jewish people or Palestinians.
I would actually love it. I'd feel like incredibly honored if Palestinians and other, non-Jewish people, but particularly Palestinians, , felt like this work was meaningful or even for them, I would... That would... I'd be honored. I don't know if it is or not, but... And I can't... You know, I'm not gonna-- I'm just gonna do what I do.
But, but I think there is a difference between Conversations I've had that center Jewish feelings in the way of how does ending Zionism... What does ending Zionism mean for us in the Jewish community?
I think we can try to address our own communities, but I think we need to...
at least I feel like I wanna lead with centering the Palestinian, , perspective or maybe not, it's not the right word, but like the, , like the plight of the Palestinians as the most important thing to resolve.
I think we need to [00:34:00] talk about the reason we're doing this is for Palestinian liberation first and foremost, but Jews are gonna be part of that conversation because it is still, quote-unquote, "the Jewish state." And I know I'm contradicting some of your previous analysis. Is that making sense at all?
Esther Azar: , Yeah. yeah, I, I agree. I agree. I don't- not about the Jewish state. No, I'm kidding. I know it's the Jewish state. That's what they keep calling it that. - But yeah, I, I, I, I, yeah, it's uncomfortable. I think it's uncomfortable, but I think my discomfort is my performativeness. I want to look good.
My discomfort is like, "Oh, I don't wanna look like I'm not centering Palestinians. I don't wanna look like, you know, I'm, I'm just,centering Jewish voices," which is a c- a comment that I get constantly. And you know what? Like I said earlier, I'm okay not looking good
Ezra Lipp: Right, because I don't actually think that's what you're doing, Esther. Like, I reallythink you are
Antizionist family trauma
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Esther Azar: I'm not worried that's what I'm doing. I'm not worried. I'm not worried. I'm just noticing my
like,
[00:35:00] you know, my... Yeah, and my, this is my like my psychology, my, my insecurity, my afraid that I'm not gonna be understood. that, that's, that like this, this past week, I've been so on top of comments because I know that what I say isn't clear, and so like being worried that we're gonna be misunderstood is, is a thing for me.
Esther Azar: So I'm just conscious of that and, and you know, and, and but you know, this is my, this is part of those of us, so I now I am gonna speak to Jews specifically. Tho-those of us that have been fighting against Zionism, oftentimes we are scapegoats in our families and, , in the community, and so we're constantly conscious of the ways that we're being misunderstood and, , and you know, it's, it's, , it's hard and, , and we need to have compassion for ourselves.
Palestinian cohost
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Esther Azar: We're throwing rocks at the wall and hoping something sticks.
Ezra Lipp: Exactly
Why i dont want to be called anti zionist
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Esther Azar: This is what I wanted to go back to when I said that I don't know if I'm an [00:36:00] anti-Zionist,
Ezra Lipp: and I couldn't think of it before. It's because I don't want to use the language of the oppressor to identify myself,
Esther Azar: and I want to be a pre-colonial Arab Jew
Ezra Lipp: Okay. So start with that first part. What do you mean you don't wanna use the language of the oppressor?
Esther Azar: I don't, , , Zion- I don't wanna say I'm anti-Zionism. I want to say what I am. But pre-colonial is also the same language actually. But like I don't wanna be anti-Zionist. I don't wanna be anti-Zionism. I don't wanna care about Zionism. I don't want Zionism to exist. I don't wanna organize myself around this system of domination.
I wanna organize myself around liberation.
Ezra Lipp: A- and, I'm fighting against that, so I am anti-Zionism but I wanna be an Arab Jew.
Esther Azar: That's what I wanna be. I wanna be an Arab Jew, and that in and of itself just feels [00:37:00] like a reclamation. Like Arab Jew, once colonialism happens, Arab Jew can't exist anymore.
There's a split off, and so I wanna reclaim that. I don't... I... Fuck Zionism. I mean,I wanna hold myself accountable for the Zionism that I embody and that I have to fight against all the time. , But I don't wanna organize around Zionism or against Zionism
Ezra Lipp: I don't mean organized, I mean my identity
Yeah. I understand that. And, it's part of the same argument.
Esther Azar: Like, I don't, I don't wanna give them more power. I don't wanna give Zionism more power
Ezra Lipp: Yeah. At the same time, Zionism is like a dominant phenomenon, just like racism is we are so cute. We're gonna have this conversation constantly. I'm gonna say, "I don't wanna give Zionism" and you're gonna be like, "Yeah, but so many Jews are [00:38:00] Zionist
I wasn't even gonna bring it into Jews. I was just gonna say Zionism is something that is real and active, like racism. Just like we need to be anti-racists,
we need to be anti-Zionists.
the point is, these systems of oppression exist, and
Esther Azar: It's not that I don't wanna I'm not ever gonna say that I wanna deny that the system of oppression exists. It's just that I... It's not that. Obviously, I want to name Zionism left and right and left. It's just that my being is not... is so much more than this. My identity goes back so way be- before this came into existence
Ezra Lipp: I get that. Yeah but I think you could do both. I think you could do both. I think you could lead with both things,
Esther Azar: All right, fine. I do. I'm
an anti-Zionist Arab Jew
Ezra Lipp: Yeah well, this has been the first segment [00:39:00] of The Thin Veil Unfiltered,
perhaps. Sorry. Yep.
Esther Azar: Underarm sniffs and all
Ezra Lipp: hey. How old are you?
Esther Azar: I am 47
Ezra Lipp: Okay