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Is there a good time to leave a marriage? When do you know it's time, how do you create a plan, and who can help? These are the types of question we dive into on this episode.
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
Elizabeth: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Stephenson with the direction family law. And I'm here with my law partner,
Sarah: Sarah
Elizabeth: and Sarah. What are we talking about today?
if we're talking about how do you know when to go and also what should you do when you're going to go
Elizabeth: and who can help you when you go?
Okay.
Sarah: Yes. Is there a good time to go? Is there like that one moment that you know, that you tell people that's when you know you should go.
if someone beats the shit out of you. Yeah. that's the only time I would say you need to get out right. As a, my questions. Do you feel safe?
Elizabeth: Are you scared? Are your children safe? If not, we need to go get you a domestic violence, protective order to get you out of there.
Sarah: Yes.
Elizabeth: And we do that because you [00:01:00] can't make the other person go. You just can't, it's a, you need to get out.
Cause I don't have to. Yeah, they don't have to. And also if you're in danger, then , we need you to get to a safe place.
And unfortunately, a lot of times in those situations, those are the hardest relationships to leave.
And that's as scary as time and the most violent time to leave for a lot of people. So it does take you can't, you may not be able to get out the second and, but we can help you plan a way to.
Elizabeth: Yes.
Sarah: And it does most of the time take a plan for the domestic violence victims to get out of that relationship and secure some kind of financial assistance. Because a lot of times those people are having their money controlled by the abuser. So that's the one case where we could say, yes, let's get you
Elizabeth: out there.
Alright. And the other ones, ,
Sarah: It depends. Tell me more, what is going on in your life?
what are some of the things that people say to you that give you a heads up that you probably need to start thinking about it? Now
Sarah: let's talk about the kids aspect because all the people say I want to wait until the kids are out of high school to [00:02:00] separate and divorced, because I don't want the kids to have to live in two houses, but that's not really always the best case scenario.
And I have to say, when people do wait for that, their older kids that are in their twenties are just as angry and upset and. Traumatized by it. It's not more, so
Elizabeth: it feels like, wait a minute, you've been lying to me all this time. I'd thought you were happy in this. I think sometime it is harder for kids who are older,
Sarah: right.
That's not going to be a good solution. And what about with young kids? Are there issues there?
Elizabeth: I think there are issues there, but I think it's easier. Kids are. Good to resilient and people sometimes don't realize that, but the longer, and they watch you and they do exactly what you do. And so you, I think then you're having a little spat or a little argument in the kitchen and they're up in the bed.
I can tell you from experience my own experience and my client's experiences, those kids are hearing everything you say. And so one you're modeling for them, what relationships should be, which is that's not what you want to model. And then if there is someone who is an aggressor. Then you're at that person is modeling [00:03:00] how you treat other people.
That's what I tell them. You don't want your child to think that's what love is. And then they grow up and look for that same relationship and abuse and yelling.
we all hear that. And then you see a lot where. They do stay together. Like they'll come and see me in two or three later years later, they'll come back.
Elizabeth: And then one of their children is acting out and treating them badly and calling them names just like the other partner does. And then sometimes that's their clicking point that they say, Oh, I need to get out.
Sarah: Exactly. That does happen way more than I thought it would after I started practicing has seen that pattern in a lot of people do wait, they'll come to me.
And I won't hear from them for a year or two. And it's amazing how many times that happens as well. but the kids, they do react and they do see it. And as they get older, it starts to get worse and worse.
Or if you see your kids, acting out, not doing well in school, just tune in to that.
Elizabeth: It's helpful. And a lot of times I say to people, go see a counselor and work through that and they can help you figure out. Do I want to leave? Should I leave? Should I not move? The personal is a person
Sarah: and that's not a marriage counseling.
We're not talking. [00:04:00] Yeah.
Elizabeth: Yeah. We're talking about individual therapy for the person that needs to have some sorting out
Sarah: marriage counseling is fine, but make sure you have your own on the side. Don't use the same person. Keep your own separate. So you can formalize what's going on in your own brain and figure things out.
and we'll have lots of shows about custody and custody plans and how to make that work and how it affects kids. But , if your kids are suffering and your suffering, then you probably need to get a plan to get out. Yeah.
Sarah: And I always say, one unhappy home is not.
Any better than two separate homes where maybe at least one of them is happy,
Elizabeth: right? No, it's
Sarah: definitely both of them.
Elizabeth: Yeah. That's what I always told. My son is ,you can't have too many people love you,and we'll talk about this too. somebody gets married or somebody gets a girlfriend or whatever that's, that can be a good thing.
It's a good
Sarah: thing. They have more support, more love. I know it's hard. If you see your ex with a new man or woman, I get that, but you got to push that aside, deal with it. How you ever deal with those sort of feelings and focus on your child?
you just gotta push through it. Yeah.
Sarah: So basically it doesn't matter what [00:05:00] age your kids are, so that's not going to be a go or no.
Not for us, but it's something that people have to take personally and think about, but as far as. Thinking about what a good time to go. I can't tell you when your child is 12, it's better than when they're two or they're 18. there are benefits and positives and negatives to each of
Sarah: them,
Elizabeth: but you need to weigh and that's when an attorney can help you.
That's what your counselor can help you.
And it's good to have a team. Yes, I agree. Can't do it all alone. No.
Elizabeth: Okay. so now you want to leave. and I get a lot of questions about, I'm a stay at home mom, or he makes a lot more money than I do. What about finances? What do you have to think about Sarah?
I think some people, they wait to leave. Maybe they put their relationship on the back burner and they focus on their work and building a career. And I think with that, do you want to be careful because while you're building that career and those assets for yourself and you're maybe not so sure about relationship you, but you'll think about it two years later.
you're going to have to split that wealth with your. Spouse most likely. So while you're building that empire, they're reaping those benefits. So don't ever just put your relationship on the back burner. [00:06:00] You should address those issues and think about the financial side. And, also if you're a stay at home, mom and you aren't making any money, then hopefully, you have to realize.
Sarah: Is there enough money to spread around? I think that's a big stop for a lot of people is separating, so we can't afford.
Elizabeth: I remember that back in the recession. that's what people do. They just stayed together. If they could, if nobody was, in an abusive relationship, but two houses can live as one.
I hate to tell people that, you may not be able to keep what you've got, but you've got to weigh that out too. . What's more important. My mental health, my stress, my parenting. Or the nice fine house and the pool and the country club membership. And again, that's your own choice.
You gotta make the choice. Yeah.
Sarah: And you might have your, a new country club and pool and your future. You never know. I think it's really hard for people to look in the future and fast forward two years from now and see what you can do on your own financially. It's more of this as a very pure hit to yourself at that moment.
So you don't know what's going on all of a sudden bank. Bank accounts are being divided. You don't have the [00:07:00] income. you don't have the money to pay for things like you did before. That's when you really need to see an attorney and think about spousal support and what that might look like for you, or if your best that is just go out there and job hunt and pound the pavement and make some money.
Elizabeth: some attorneys will tell dependent spouses to no, don't go out. Don't find a job. I always think it's better because one, it gets you out of the house. She's thinking about something other than yourself, or even just go volunteer or do something, but,
Sarah: and judges want that. They did they'll look at you and say, okay, there's going to be a spousal support, but you need to get a job.
Right.
And that's the reality of it, that's just how it is.
Sarah: Unfortunately, it's not always, you're not always going to go to the attorney and here's something that you think you're going to
Elizabeth: my clients, tell me all the data. That's not at all what I wanted there.
Sarah: I know that's not good news
Elizabeth: retina and it's about them.
And they probably won't like what I want to hear, but I think we're both that way. And I think everybody in our firm is that way that we're honest with you. we'll tell you the positives and the negatives, and then you get to make the choice. We can't make the choices for you.
Sarah: It's constantly a benefit. Cost analysis [00:08:00] in the family law area. you, I will tell you what will likely happen if we make these decisions and what would happen if we go this way and that's going to be ultimately up to you. And to a point often where I say, do you really want to just keep fighting this and litigating this?
Or do you want to put a stop to it and walk away with what you have?
And again, we can't, the clients are the bosses and I don't think they realize that sometimes.
Sarah: Yeah. They are our bosses. And they'll say, no, I just want to stick it to her. Keep going. I'm like, okay, good.
that's.
Sarah: Yes.
So also what about affairs? when's the time to leave if you're having an affair or if you're on the other side and you find out about an affair
Elizabeth: it's hard. It may not, I don't think it changes the equation, any. because you still have the issues about if I leave and if he's having an affair and if I leave, I still don't have any money.
I still have to have some place to go. You're still going to have to bide the kids up there. Fairs don't gonna have anything to do with the custody, Unless they were out, when they were supposed to have the kids and leave the kids alone. So it really comes into play in spousal support and property sometimes. not property, but spousal support. So what I say to people is get as much. [00:09:00] Information as you can hire API, stay together, keep your mouth shut a little bit and let's get what we can and then you can leave
Sarah: it.
Don't forget. No, and definitely don't write that down. I forget that's a defense that can be used against you in
Elizabeth: the future. You said, I forgive you and it makes it all go away. you can just. Sometimes it's gotta be sneaky and it's been, it feels bad
just find out
Sarah: what you can and if you're the one having the affair rude, you should have left beforehand.
that's just morally correct. Correct. And you'll get in a lot more trouble doing that and that will help your case, but it's not going to help your case.
Elizabeth: I can't tell you how many dependents badges I have that have an affair that. they're not going to get any spousal's important that the husband makes $500,000 and they've been staying at home and I'm really sorry, but you're not getting any,
Sarah: you should have talked to me before the effect.
Right. There's listening and thinks about wanting to have a fair, you can come talk to us
Elizabeth: first. Just hold up. It ain't. No, it ain't all that. Yeah,
no. Not at all. [00:10:00]
Sarah: another thing about these affairs is that it really pisses the other person off so much that it's going to, even if you're not fighting about spousal support, it's going to make the co-parenting harder.
It's going to make everything harder because everyone's just emotionally fired up and hurt.
Elizabeth: Yeah. that's got it. that's got to hurt no offense, but that's got to really hurt, really bad.
that's when to leave. That's another one, too.
Elizabeth: Sure. Yeah. It's if you're thinking about it, I want to separate.
And then, I found this nice guy and I think I'm going to go out with them and don't do it. Just the dome
Sarah: and it's okay too. just aside from affairs, just in general, you don't know if you're in love anymore. [00:11:00] It's okay to go talk to an attorney and figure out options and take your time with that process.
No one, we're not saying that if these things happen to you, that this is an automatic time to go, or you should just pull the trigger on random Tuesday, that it's something you definitely want to think about and put some thought into and plan with your attorney, your counselor, and how it's going to look.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Cause again, there are marriages that do survive that. and, but, you can talk about, let's have a postnuptial agreement, shall we salvage again? And here's what then happened kind
Sarah: of way.
we can say, if you have an affair, I find out about it, you're going to pay me X or this is going to happen, or I'm going to get more of this.
Elizabeth: . It's okay to forgive and go back and stay together, but be smart about it. protect
Sarah: yourself. They might've talked to an attorney, him or herself, knowing that you know about the affair. And the attorney said, just, Brush it off and let them forgive you and then it'll be all.
Okay. You can leave them alone couple years. So you don't want to get in the other end
Elizabeth: of the racket at
Sarah: all. Talk to an attorney, even if it's just nothing to do with an affair and [00:12:00] nothing like that happened. If you just don't feel like you want to be in the marriage anymore, have a plan, get, take a look at your finances.
What's there also know if your spouse has a lot of debt that you might have to take on some of that debt too. So if they're running something into the ground and you having all these red flags about finances, It might be a good time to talk to an attorney just about that.
a lot of people who don't work or in a marriage that the finances are controlled by the other person.
Elizabeth: I always tell him, you need to go open your own bank account, and everybody's afraid to do that. Sometimes we'll have to let the other person know that it's happening now and just squirrel away some money. And you'll be surprised how much, a hundred dollars here, $5 a year. Adds up
Sarah: right now. I've seen some sad cases where there's financial abuse and they're spousal only give them money to go to the grocery store or to, debit card to use the grocery store.
We'll take an extra 20 bucks out or 40 bucks out when you're at the register.
Elizabeth: Exactly.
Sarah: Store that cash somewhere.
Because you may need it,
Sarah: you may need it.
Elizabeth: , even if we're not ready to go see an attorney because. we can [00:13:00] help you plan and you can hire us before you separate, you can, and then you get to step back and we get to be the bitches and do all the stuff and make the calls and say, don't bother, here's what we're going to do.
And so sometimes it puts a barrier between the parties and that helps them be able to start separating.
And there's a couple of legal actions that can help with that as well. In North Carolina, we have divorce from bed and board. So if you really want to stay in the house, And they've been abusive to you.
Sarah: I'm not physically abusive where we need to get a DPO, but just making your life hell pretty much. And you want them to leave and they refuse to leave. Then we can file that divorce from bed and board. And that usually pushes people to leave before we even get to court. I haven't gone to court for, but I filed it many times.
So that usually works too
Elizabeth: is, just going to see an attorney doesn't mean you have to do anything. So don't be scared to do that. We're just human. we sit and listen to people's stories every day. That's what we do. We sit with them in their pain. and help them work through that and get a plan in place so that they can move forward.
That's what seeing an [00:14:00] attorney or at least see an us as about that's
Sarah: and I'll hear someone be like, Oh, so and so called. They want to retain like, Oh, I met with them two years ago. and I see him again and it's great to see them and know that I can help them because I could see that they were in a bad place before.
And it just takes some people a little bit longer and that's okay. It's okay. to struggle with that decision and to, take the time with your kids. A lot of people just say they got wrapped up with their kids. And even though they wanted to separate a year ago that just sped past. And, but here they are today wanting to make a difference and step in a different direction toward a better life for them in their case.
I agree. I agree. Yes. And yes. Of course, there's this other clients of mine who have been married for 40 plus years, which I'm always amazed to see and they want to separate them divorce.
And that's something we'll talk about. Two, because of what I call it, the grain of divorce, and that can really, that's hard, but I think it's also joyful too, for people who like, Oh, life is short, you
Sarah: know,
Elizabeth: I'm [00:15:00] 60, I'm 70, I want to change.
I don't want to be here anymore.
Sarah: I want to be happy. I've worked, I'm retired. This is now what I want to do with the next phase of my life. And I understand that. A lot of times the other person, the other party doesn't
Elizabeth: right. Yeah. Like I've been with this person all my life and this is what happens and that's some shit that's right.
Sarah: So basically, there's not a right answer here for one's the right time to leave and what to look for and knowing that it's the right time to leave.
And just see us, come talk, go talk, go see an attorney, go talk to you're talking to your friends is great, but please don't listen to them.
Elizabeth: And they say, this happened to me, or this is what you should do or in my divorce. That's what happened.
Sarah: Don't listen to them very much because they're not living your life. It's great to talk to them and vent with them and besides you to do that, but at the end of the day, they go home to their family and whatever they're doing, they're not going to live that life with you.
take all that advice with a grain of salt and everyone's life is different too, Yeah.
Elizabeth: I agree. So that's what we [00:16:00] can tell you on the upper level, big picture of know when to go and we're going to drill down as we go through these podcasts on how to do, how to talk about your finances, what to do about parenting.
Those sorts of things, right?
Sarah: Yes, that's correct. And when you do go, don't burn the house down, don't do that. Don't throw all the other things out in the front yard.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
I know you want to take a baseball bat to the windshield, but don't do that.
Elizabeth: here's what the philosophy is.
when I go to court with someone, my philosophy is not to bash the other person, but to put my client in the best light and I'm want them to come in. with the little halo over their head at the end of the day, being a bigger person. I know didn't feel like that. The moment you actually win.
Sarah: Mama says when they go low, we go high. And I swear it works better in court. The judge has realized that they don't like someone. They're going to tell you.
Elizabeth: So if you want to bash the other party do with your friends, but don't do it on
Sarah: social media. Don't do it in writing. [00:17:00]
Elizabeth: Don't just have a little chat glass of wine with your girlfriend.
But other than that, don't do it.
So that was a nice little brief overview of knowing when to go and what to do and what not to do. So I look forward to more episodes from us on these topics.
Elizabeth: I'm Elizabeth Stephenson with new direction, family law.
Sarah: I'm Sarah Hank.
Elizabeth: That's some shit
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