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Life creates many in-between moments.
Whether those in-betweens create grief, sorrow, heartache, or pain, also know that joy, refinement, hope, and transformation are just around the corner.
Dinine Sig wants to accompany you in all of these in-between times–because she herself has seen many. The Space In-
Between is your opportunity to connect, refresh, and renew yourself. Dinine hosts conversations that will carry you through all of life’s significant moments–all of which will help you feel empowered, encouraged, and understood.
Remember, there is magic found in the in-betweens.
TSIB - 3-8 Transcript
Dinine: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. I'm Dinine. I'm the host of this show, The Space In Between. I'm a mom, I'm an attorney, I'm an author, and I'm also a widow. We're gonna get into some really important stuff today, and I'm really grateful that you're here and you're gonna be sitting with us on The Space In Between Hi, friends.
Welcome back to The Space In Between. I am here today at The Engine Room in Broad Ripple, Indianapolis. Shout out, Anthony. And, um, I am here with someone that I've been wanting to interview for quite a while. She is an inspiration to me personally, and the work that she does is very deeply felt in the community, and I know that because I know a lot of the same people that she knows.
Um, so I'm so excited to introduce her today. My guest today is someone who regularly travels the space [00:01:00] in between. She has built a life around helping others navigate it. Amy Kandrak is the co-founder of What Friends Do, a platform that helps people coordinate meaningful, practical support during life-changing events.
She is the host of What Friends Do Kitchen Chats podcast, just like me, but different. She's a fierce advocate for women through her work with Women for Change Indiana, and the first woman in Indiana to raise 500,000 in venture capital for a startup, a tech startup. Thank you. That's impressive.
Aimee kandrac: Oh, thank you.
Dinine: You're, you've always impressed me- Oh ... but that's an impressive list right there.
Aimee kandrac: Wow. Thank you.
Dinine: So I'm so glad you're here.
Aimee kandrac: It's, it's an honor to be here, and I'm so excited that we get to chat here on this platform with all of your listeners.
Dinine: Me too. Me too. Um, so you've spent so much of your life helping others show up in times of crisis, [00:02:00] creating tools, building community, holding space for people in their hardest moments.
I know that What Friends Do was born from something I, I would say deeply personal, um, and I've read a little bit about it and how it all started, but I'd like you to take us back to that time. I'd love to hear in your words what made you wanna create a platform that helps people show up during life's hardest moments?
Aimee kandrac: Oh, thanks. So a lot of years ago, um, I had... My sister's very, very best friend, who was like a little sister to me, was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, and she was 25.
Dinine: So young.
Aimee kandrac: It was so young, and she'd already survived colon cancer at that point, and, um-
Dinine: Oh my
Aimee kandrac: goodness ... my mom and sister were the, the people in and out of the hospital.
sharing information from the [00:03:00] family with the friends and loved ones and the masses, and that's where they were able to really help the family. And as they were sharing information with, I say the masses in quotes-
Dinine: The community, the masses, yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: the community, um, the response was always twofold. The response was always, "Please tell the family I'm thinking of them and I love them," and the second was always, "And let me know if there's anything I can do to help."
And- I love that ... when we gave people something to do, they would, and they felt privileged and honored to have the opportunity to be able to do something, right?
Dinine: Right.
Aimee kandrac: You... So often things happen in, like these major life events happen, and people feel helpless. Um, but there's so many things in life that still [00:04:00] need to go on, like-
Dinine: True.
Aimee kandrac: Right? True, yes. Like even little things like taking the trash out or going at home and waiting for a plumber to show up because- It's- ... someone has a backed up sink.
Dinine: Right.
Aimee kandrac: You know? All of the things that people can do to help make life just a little bit more comfortable and, and continue on when really life has stopped.
Um, and so we had, um, we'd lost my dad a few years before that, so we'd gone through some personal, you know, personally gone through a lot of this to know what it's like to be the people on the receiving end of helpers and our friends stepping in. Um, so anyway, the, th- back to the story with this, I, um, was living in a different state at the time and I had two small kids and my husband was in medical school and I was working full time and I got a phone call [00:05:00] from my mom, and I remember it really clearly, and she said, "I think, you know, I think what we're doing for Laura and her family, we can figure out a way to do this for more people."
Dinine: Wow.
Aimee kandrac: And from there, um- Just started figuring out how to create a website, but knowing that it was more than just a website. Um, you know, it's- Yeah ... it's a backend. There's, there's a, you know, tech database that has to interact with lots of other things, and the email servers, and all
Dinine: the- All the things I don't understand-
that Aimee clearly understands.
Aimee kandrac: So, so all of that kind of stuff. And, um, so we started and, uh, we were completely a B2C, so business to consumer, um, play, and loved helping people that way. It was really, really great, but it costs a lot of money to make money-
Dinine: Yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: in the consumer space.
Dinine: [00:06:00] Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: And reached a point where, um, my mom and I decided it was probably best for us to, you know, kind of figure out different roles in the company.
Dinine: Okay.
Aimee kandrac: And I, um, took the company over at that point, um, and also kind of switched our business model, and switched to a B2B model, so business to business.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: And in order to do that, needed to raise some venture funding, and was the first female founder in the state of Indiana to close venture funding of a half a million or more.
Dinine: Love it.
Aimee kandrac: Thank you. And I- Love it ... I say that not as a pat on my back. I say that as a Hey, everybody. We need to pay attention to the fact that when I was pitching to venture groups in 2016, 2017, I [00:07:00] was the first female founder to pitch to these groups.
Dinine: Oh, that is... That blows my mind.
Aimee kandrac: Uh-huh.
Dinine: Because I did mergers and acquisitions for a while on the East Coast.
Now, I never worked with women, so that, I would love to- Um, that might
Aimee kandrac: be one
Dinine: of the- Right. Like, ding, ding, ding. I'd love to know... I'd love to know, like, how many women on the East... But I did it earlier than even that, and helped some companies raise one million, two million through friends and family offerings- Sure
or whatever. That blows my mind. I thought you were the first to receive it, but you might have been one of the first to pitch it, and I never phrased it like that in my head.
Aimee kandrac: Um- That's amazing ... so I was, uh, I was both, right? So I know, um, I have... I, I was able to make a really wonderful friendship with a woman who was working with a venture fund that I had the opportunity to pitch to.
And, um, you know, a, a little bit embarrassing to mention this, but I was getting ready to go, like the night [00:08:00] before, gonna, you know, getting my pitch put together. Yeah. Felt pretty good about my pitch, felt pretty confident in it, but I, um, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know what I should wear." So I called her and I said, "You know, I'm trying to decide, do I wear a pantsuit?
Do I wear a dress? What, you know, what do I... What do people usually wear to this?" And she-
Dinine: What'd she- ...
Aimee kandrac: froze. And she said, "We've never had a female founder pitch to us before."
Dinine: So she could- So
Aimee kandrac: she- That's mind-blowing ... didn't even- So she didn't have
Dinine: a background to tell you.
Aimee kandrac: No. No. And so, um-
Dinine: So what did you wear?
I, I, I wore a pantsuit
Aimee kandrac: because- I was like, I was thinking- ... I was like, "Ah, there's..." Which is what I- Yeah ... probably was going to wear, but I've re- you know, I've got some cute dresses that I- Yeah ... feel confident in. Yeah. Um, but yeah, they, they aren't used to women pitching. And I am sad that I don't know the numbers now.
Maybe one of your listeners can help us figure [00:09:00] this out. But the number is- Not high It's
Dinine: still abysmal, is what you're saying-
Aimee kandrac: Like- ...
Dinine: for women founders ...
Aimee kandrac: for female founders in the state of Indiana, I mean, I, if I had to guess, it's probably less than 20-
Dinine: Wow ...
Aimee kandrac: who've received-
Dinine: Funding ...
Aimee kandrac: funding.
Dinine: VC funding.
Aimee kandrac: VC funding.
Wow. Right, not just f- not just friends and family, but actual VC funding-
Dinine: Wow ...
Aimee kandrac: um, in, in a significant dollar amount.
Dinine: Wow. That's... Okay, listeners, so, like, I don't usually put a call to action- I didn't mean it for that ... in the middle of the show, but- That was not- No, well, also, if you're in the Midwest and you're considering growing a company, let this be the kick in the A-S-S that you need.
Get your pitch out there. That's crazy.
Aimee kandrac: Well, get your pitch out there, but also find the people who are gonna fund you.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: And-
Dinine: Well, you've gotta get it out there to know, don't you think?
Aimee kandrac: Well, um, yes, and you have to know who you're pitching to, right? Um, one of the [00:10:00] things that I've learned, especially in the tech space, is, and in the VC space, is people like to fund what they know.
They like to fund who they know. They like to fund things that they think they're going to use, right?
Dinine: Makes sense.
Aimee kandrac: And, and that wasn't my solution. My solution-
Usually my primary, like my primary audience, my primary user is usually a female, right? It's usually that type A best friend, mom, sister- Takes charge ... and who's gonna take charge, who's gonna get in there, who's gonna rally the troops and say, "Okay, this is what is needed. This is how we're organizing it, and this is how it needs to be done."
And so unless those women are in the position to fund, then they weren't- Yeah ... in a position to fund me. Right. Right? And so- They can cheer you, but they don't- They can cheer me- Right ... and they can be my users, and that's great. Um, but you know, it, [00:11:00] it takes a lot in this space. Um, and there's a lot of other reasons why female founders don't get funded.
Um, you know, we don't always create-
Dinine: It's structural. I think it's built into the system- Yes ... and-
Aimee kandrac: Yes ...
Dinine: we'll probably be tearing it down as long as we're all alive and beyond, so.
Aimee kandrac: So.
Dinine: I think it's just, it, it's just structural since the days of the Bible. Structural. Women are just not as, um... They're not seen as valuable until they show their value.
Yeah. Whereas I think a man can just walk in a room, at times with, with a different crowd, and there's a value attributed before you even know. I don't know about you, but as a lawyer, I've been in some rooms and been mistaken back in the earlier days for a secretary or a receptionist. I'm in the, I'm in the conference room, but if that person hadn't met me, they mistook me for that.
[00:12:00] Yeah. So I think you would not mistake the man in the room for the receptionist, and that's what I mean by just walking in the room as a man, there's a value that is attributed to you that you maybe didn't earn. But a woman has to almost, I don't wanna say shout, but she has to show it, prove it. Do, do you understand what I'm saying?
Aimee kandrac: I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you, and I think there, it's even more than that, right? Like, we're also not put in positions where we have the opportunity to create things that are seen as va- as valuable.
Dinine: That's right, and that's the structural part-
Aimee kandrac: Right ...
Dinine: that we're still trying brick by brick.
Right. And of course now with the, with the way it's going it's gonna be a little bit harder. But if you're listening and you have an idea for a business, let this inspire you. This is a little side note from The Space In Between. We don't focus a lot on entrepreneurship and development. But Amy Kandrac is someone you should be looking up to and checking, you [00:13:00] know, and, and really sort of taking a hint from that.
Aimee kandrac: Well, thank you. You're welcome. That makes me, like, thank you so much. But also, um, reminding women that we have scalable ideas, but that's the difference sometimes in, um, our business ideas aren't always- given the opportunity to think big enough, right? Yeah. And so if we come in with a single shingle idea, that's not gonna get venture funding, right?
And so making sure that women, when they have these ideas, really think through a scalable strategy.
Dinine: Okay. Um- I really like that. Think it through, but also kick yourself in the butt and get it going,
Aimee kandrac: right? Well, right. Yeah, yeah. Get your- y- and you gotta start somewhere. Yeah. And I think there's so many more opportunities now, um, and women do hold money.
And I also look at women who, who hold money to say we need to be [00:14:00] investing in women. So I, my background was actually in fundraising and development for nonprofits. I currently sit on boards and development committees and fundraising committees, and I, I understand that, and I think it's super important.
I like to encourage women to not only donate, that's really nice- Yeah ... that's great, we should definitely do that, but invest in a female-owned business.
Dinine: Change the mindset a
Aimee kandrac: little bit. So change the mindset.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: Who cares if you get the money back? It's just like a donation. Right. Most of these women, though, you're gonna get money back.
You're gonna be making money on this, and it might take some time. But in the meantime, most female-owned businesses are changing and problem-solving for something that, you know-
Dinine: Yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: is, is, is affecting women and children and their community. Not that men's businesses aren't doing that. I don't mean that like that.
But I think, you know, [00:15:00] looking at some of these female founders and female-owned businesses- Mm-hmm ... women need to invest in them.
Dinine: Agreed.
Aimee kandrac: And that's going to help change the
Dinine: cycle. Second call to action. Yes. If you're listening and you're a woman with money, invest instead of just donating. Yes. Invest. Invest.
Okay.
Aimee kandrac: Okay. All
Dinine: right. Thank you.
Aimee kandrac: That was not
Dinine: what you
Aimee kandrac: had intended
Dinine: on us
Aimee kandrac: chatting
Dinine: about, I'm sure. No, but listen, that's what I like about having a podcast. I do have some idea of where I wanna go, but I also want it to go where it's gonna go.
Aimee kandrac: Yeah.
Dinine: Um, so the show is called The Space in Between, and sometimes that space opens up in a single shattering moment.
Aimee kandrac: Mm.
Dinine: You faced a day in life when your life changed in ways you couldn't have prepared for, both emotionally and physically. What does it feel like to stand... I know what it felt like for me, but what does it feel like for you to stand at the edge of a life you didn't recognize instantly, and how [00:16:00] did you begin to find your footing?
Aimee kandrac: Well, uh, do you want me to share with listeners this story?
Dinine: Y- yeah, I do. I wanted to give you the freedom- Sure ... to share. Sure. I know what happened to you, and-
Aimee kandrac: Yeah. So-
Dinine: It was traumatic, to say the least. I would say life altering. You had two big things happen, but I-
Aimee kandrac: Oh, a lot, a lot more than two. Well- Well, but yeah, yeah, I did.
Okay, so, um, anyway, I, uh, over the course of about six weeks, my life went From something that I, like, just unrecognizable almost. Um, and not fully. So, um, became an empty nester, moved my, my last kiddo into college and, um, a couple of days later... And, and that was weird, 'cause I mommed really hard. So I wasn't entirely sure what life [00:17:00] was gonna look like without kids.
Um, I was so used to all the schedules and, you know, being president of the soccer board and doing all of, all of the things. Um-
Dinine: I'm so in touch with that vein. Like, I just, I feel- Yeah ... I feel it viscerally when you say that, 'cause I know. Yeah. And we sent our youngest together- Yeah ... the same time to the same school.
Aimee kandrac: Yeah.
Dinine: Um, but-
Aimee kandrac: And, and so I was, I was... It was weird and nervous and, um, I filled my time with, you know... Well, it- I, I shouldn't even say that. Like, a f- within five days, um, found out that I h- had a tumor in my ovary, and had to, um, had to get that removed. And on my way home from the hospital getting, um, just the initial blood work done, knowing that I had surgery scheduled, um, I came home and my husband said, "Hey, I wanna [00:18:00] talk.
Um, I, I think we need a divorce."
Dinine: You can't write that in a movie. You can, but it's, it's so much, Amy.
Aimee kandrac: So- So
Dinine: much. So-
Aimee kandrac: So yeah.
Dinine: Um- So you're standing on this life that just a few days before looked very-
Aimee kandrac: Yeah ...
Dinine: different, and now it's-
Aimee kandrac: Yeah ...
Dinine: become unrecognizable.
Aimee kandrac: Unrecognizable. So I, I had surgery. Um, he moved out a couple of days after that.
Uh, we were in my, my dream home, and had to sell that. Um, so within, you know, like three more weeks, had to get my house up for sale. I didn't
Dinine: know it was within three weeks. I knew you sold, but I didn't know-
Aimee kandrac: Yeah ...
Dinine: while you were going through the tumor removal.
Aimee kandrac: So it was...
Dinine: That's so hard.
Aimee kandrac: Uh, you know, it, the, the dates and times are mildly blurry.
Dinine: Right. Right? No. Like,
Aimee kandrac: I can-
Dinine: Really? Of-
Aimee kandrac: I can kind of remember most of [00:19:00] it, but, um-
Dinine: Well, trauma does that. It does. It kind of softens it for you or it bleeds it out. I don't know which way because- Yeah ... if you remembered everything, I don't think we could always go on.
Aimee kandrac: Right. Yeah. So the hou- house was definitely sold, um, within- Withi- within three months of when I moved my youngest into school.
So all of that happened. Wow. And- And
Dinine: you were sort of ducking down a little bit, like when I or other people... I know you had a closer circle, but you weren't, none of us- I, I- ... really knew this was going on.
Aimee kandrac: I couldn't function. Like, I, um, had a couple of good friends, my mom and my sister.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: Because I was...
Literally, there were days that I was laying on the floor crying on the phone talking to friends. I know, yeah. There were other days when I had a girlfriend show up from [00:20:00] out of town. She knew how to get into my house, and she came, and she's like- She- "Get- we're getting out of bed, and we're just going downstairs to have coffee."
Dinine: Amazing. "
Aimee kandrac: That's all we're doing today."
Dinine: And it's so f- I'm, I'm not trying to say... I only say fortunate because some people don't even have that one friend.
Aimee kandrac: Right.
Dinine: So I don't wanna say like, "Oh, you didn't go through all that because you..." But it's so f- I'm so happy or glad or grateful that you had those people, because I've met people...
I'm sorry, we don't have tissues. No, no, no, no,
Aimee kandrac: I don't-
Dinine: Um-
Aimee kandrac: I, I, I... So w- not everybody has those people. Right. It makes me so fortunate that I-
Dinine: Yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: I do. Yeah. And, um- I mean, I was really, really lucky. And, and then also really lucky in knowing that, um, different people showed up in ways that I didn't know I needed, right?
I had a couple of friends who did find out, and one friend was like, "I love to clean out closets. Let me just come get your closets ready for your house to sell."
Dinine: [00:21:00] That's amazing.
Aimee kandrac: Right? That's amazing. And, and this was, this was a friend who I'd known, um, but I didn't know that she was gonna be in my inner circle to come in and see me at my worst, right?
And so sometimes people show up when you don't expect it.
Dinine: Well, I'm so- But- I am so glad. So I- So- ... was sort of asking you about finding your footing.
Aimee kandrac: Yeah. So-
Dinine: Do you think those people did, or do you-
Aimee kandrac: So finding my footing, I, um-
Dinine: And you don't have to... It's not a clean ending. We have other questions too. No,
Aimee kandrac: no, no.
But, but like- Let's, let, but
Dinine: let
Aimee kandrac: me... So, so finding my footing. I think that, um, I had the opportunity, and one of my friends suggested it. Actually, we were s- we were sitting at Patachu, or Petit Chou right next door- ... when she said this to me. She's like... I, I think I had just watched Eat Pray Love on Netflix or something.
Okay. And she's like, "That's what you need to do. Just go. Just go away and figure out what's next," because I didn't [00:22:00] know what was next. And I, I mean, I really had no idea what was next. I sold my house. I didn't have anywhere to go yet, you know?
Dinine: I remember that conversation. That's the only-
Aimee kandrac: Because I, you know, it was like at the holidays.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: And I was downsizing significantly, and also just didn't know what I wanted. I hadn't lived by myself in 24 years. Um, I didn't know- Wow. Yeah ... what I needed or where I wanted to be or what I wanted to do. I mean, I didn't even know who I was. And I was... I, I jokingly say I lived out of my car for about four months.
I did not live out of my car, but I k- you know, it was like-
Dinine: You were traveling
Aimee kandrac: a lot ... I was traveling- Yeah ... a lot, and I, and it was great. And I spent weeks and weeks by myself, and people who know me are kinda like, "Really? I don't... You feel like such an introvert or such an extrovert." Extrovert. Such an extrovert.
And those weeks and weeks by myself were [00:23:00] so amazing. And I had the... And I spent a lot of weeks with friends, and I spent a lot of weeks doing other things. And, um- But I got away from my daily routine, and I think that break was what I needed in order-
Dinine: To start
Aimee kandrac: establishing your
Dinine: footing ...
Aimee kandrac: to start figuring out what was next.
And, um, the biggest lesson that I am still learning is that I'm still learning. Every day I'm learning something new, and that there are really no rules. And once... And one of my, one of my best friends from college was, we were driving to Florida, and I d- I... She said to me, she's like, "Amy, there's no rules to how this, how you do this.
You get to figure it out. That's the beauty of this."
Dinine: That's the beauty and [00:24:00] that freedom that once you've recognized that and really absorb it-
Aimee kandrac: Yeah ...
Dinine: I think it does open you up even during a time of really intense pain. Yeah. Just knowing that there's no right way.
Aimee kandrac: There's no right way.
Dinine: We're brought up with this right way.
We don't even know what it is, but we know when we feel like we may not be doing it. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I often think when we talk about there's no rules, I think about the loss of an animal, a pet.
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: And there's still, to me, not enough, um understanding about it. So there's like a right way you tell people you lost your pet, and you're supposed to be better by the next week.
Mm-hmm. Um, and that's not, when you have a pet who you love almost like your children- Mm-hmm ... it's not next week. No. And some people feel that for years. I was one of those people that felt that for years. You may be. Yeah. Other people may, and it just depends on how we're built. And I think, [00:25:00] hey, if you're out there and you just lost a pet or you're about to, there are no rules.
And I don't care what your job says or what your family says, if you're struggling with that, it's similar to what Amy's saying, finding your freedom. I'm not trying to like- No, I- ... compare what you did to losing, but I'm saying in that grief, just, uh, realizing whatever way I have to heal this.
Aimee kandrac: Well, and I think the word that is really important there is grief, and that, um, you know, I, I had so much grief in, okay, my life doesn't look like it was going to look, like what I thought it was going to look like, right?
And, and that, that grieving process in a divorce, that grieving process in, in not being a mom anymore in the same way, that grieving process in not living next to my best friends and that, and finding a new place to live, um, that grieving process in how did I [00:26:00] fuck up my life like this, right?
Dinine: Or how did I end up here?
Which is, which is- I drove, I drove on I-95, how did I end up on Route 66?
Aimee kandrac: Yeah. Right?
Dinine: Right. Like, I've been driving
Aimee kandrac: and- And, and I didn't know that this is where I was going, right? Yeah. And, um- The thing that I will say now is I didn't know life could be so much better and could be so beautiful
Dinine: That's, that's amazing, and that, that almost ties into another thing I wanna address, but I love to see the look on your face when you say that.
You said that recently when we were out at a social function together. Um, I really love that, and I'm so glad for that. I wanna just go back a little bit-
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm ...
Dinine: because the idea from this show came from one of your shows, so I wanna shout out your show again- Uh-huh ... What Friends Do: Kitchen Chats. Um, you were doing a show with your sister, and there was, um, this idea, [00:27:00] we've all heard it from the flight attendant when we're on a plane.
Aimee kandrac: Mm.
Dinine: In case of an emergency, you put your own oxygen mask on first before you help little children, old people, whoever's next to you. But when your whole world shifts in a heartbeat, even remembering to breathe can be or feel impossible. So how did you begin to care for yourself? And I think you've shared already, um, going on trips maybe, but in that space in between when you were the one in crisis and not the one helping, which is, I think, your normal tendency- It's so hard
to be the one that helps and not the one- Right ... that needs it, but you did need it. So how did you sort of begin to care for yourself even while your identity... And I don't wanna put that on you, but your identity was shifting a little bit- Oh, my identity f- was really shifting ... in a way, you know, wife to single woman.
Um, you were not a patient. Now you were a patient battling [00:28:00] something. Right. So there must have been, I think for all of us to be sitting here at this desk today in this studio, we found something even in the darkest moment, like the crying on the floor moment.
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: Um, I've had it. You've had it. We've had it in the past few years, both of us.
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: But there's something that keeps you going 'cause there are some people that sadly don't make it out of that moment.
Aimee kandrac: Right.
Dinine: So there's, there's, I think for me, a little act of small care was I would do whatever it was for that second that I felt I needed, whether it was walking my dog, not answering the phone, like it was a small act of self-care to start.
Maybe that was me putting my oxygen mask on first, and I'm just wondering, how did you find that moment to sort of say, "Before I deal with the house, the closets, this, I need blank." Was it Cheetos or Doritos or like
Aimee kandrac: I don't know if I [00:29:00] did, honestly. I mean, I don't know if I did. I, I think It's longer than that, uh, longer ago than that, that I put my ask- oxygen mask on first.
Oh my gosh, I'm gonna get... I am... This is a realization that I'm having right now.
Dinine: Oh my gosh. Well, I'm so
Aimee kandrac: happy to- Well- ...
Dinine: help it,
Aimee kandrac: but- So I think I put my oxygen mask on years ago, and I created my nec- network of people. And I-
Dinine: Wow ...
Aimee kandrac: think that it was the fact that my girlfriends from-
Dinine: I wish I had tissues.
Aimee kandrac: No, I...
Don't worry about it. I'm so
Dinine: sorry.
Aimee kandrac: No, don't. It's fine.
Dinine: Okay. Okay.
Aimee kandrac: I, I think it was the fact that My best friend from college, I knew I could call her any time, day or night.
Dinine: So even in that utter on-the-floor darkness-
Aimee kandrac: Yes ...
Dinine: you knew at 2:00 in the morning or- [00:30:00] Yes ... 5:00 in the afternoon- I could call- ... dinnertime ...
Aimee kandrac: I can call her any time.
I knew, and, and she already had her oxygen mask on 'cause she was okay at that moment, right? So she could help me.
Dinine: Yeah. That's amazing.
Aimee kandrac: And, and I, and my girlfriend from New Jersey, who could come over, and she's the one who, like-
Dinine: She came over and-
Aimee kandrac: She got me out of bed ... into your house, right? And she was like, "All right, we're going downstairs."
And she's one who, you know, years ago I had a broken foot and she got me out of the bathtub one time 'cause I was like, "I want to shower, but I can't get in and out of the tub." I
Dinine: love
Aimee kandrac: that. You know? I love that. Um, and so I, I think for me, people are my oxygen masks. People
Dinine: are your oxygen, okay. Um- And you always make sure that you have-
Aimee kandrac: And I had my people, and there were only...
Like I said, there weren't many. Um, but I let those ones in, and they made sure that I had it on.
Dinine: So when I [00:31:00] talk to you about someone who may not have people, does it seem completely foreign to you that someone who has to find their own oxygen and doesn't have people, there are people out there that-
Aimee kandrac: Well, it does, but I also know that people aren't the oxygen for everyone, right?
Okay, so that's- That's
Dinine: perfect because-
Aimee kandrac: They are for me.
Dinine: Right.
Aimee kandrac: Um, and so it was also really weird for some of these people who were watching me re- retreat for months at a time, that I wasn't with people. And so I think that was weird and hard. Um, and it was weird and hard for me at first. Um, so, so like that retreat was, was strange and uncomfortable.
But going back to, um, people are my oxygen, for some people, it's [00:32:00] going on a walk with their dog. For some people, it's, "I'm gonna eat a bowl of ice cream."
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: For some people, it's, "Okay, I need to, I need to go to yoga. I need to meditate. I need to go for a run. I need to..." There's all ki- Yeah ... there's a litany of things- Yes, yeah
right?
Dinine: Some- everybody has something different they-
Aimee kandrac: So everybody has something different, and I don't think that... I mean, there's obviously worse coping mecha- mechanisms than others, but whatever. Whatever it is, being okay with it and realizing that.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: So, um- So yeah, my sister did say in that podcast, "Proud of you for putting your oxygen mask on first."
And what, what made me wanna do that, um, 'cause I had my people, and I, I wanted to be there for them when they need me- Yeah ... later. And that includes my kids, right?
Dinine: And that leads me into my very next question. Um, so you were, during this [00:33:00] time of your own intense struggle, parenting college-age children.
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: I'm also parenting college-age children. When kids are little, I think we have a way of sort of protecting them from the bad in the world. I think that we worry more about them, but we have a way of sort of, um, controlling. So like when my brother died, who was my son's favorite person along with my favorite person, I had to take a, a day before I told him.
I had wanted to research, how do you tell a nine-year-old s- that someone they love is dead? Um, I wanted to get my own grief under control for a minute to be there for his grief.
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: And I had that ability. My son's now 22. If someone died today in our family, I probably couldn't hide it from him for a day.
It's like- Right ... and they're full-grown. You know, there's a lot going on, so, um, when our kids get older, they start to really see us as [00:34:00] people, as individuals. They start to really know us, just like you mentioned your friends. So I think it's much harder as moms to hide the pain and the cracks. I've been in a place of deep personal grief here in the past few years here in Indy.
My daughter was still in high school.
Aimee kandrac: Mm.
Dinine: Um, I had to still do things, and, um I, I wasn't okay, but it was this constant pressure to try to pretend to be okay. And my kids really, when my son was home from college, my daughter was with me every day, they really knew I was not okay no matter what I did. But that constant pressure to try to not be on the floor crying- Mm-hmm
to, um, pretend that you're gonna make a nutritious dinner when you can't even function or breathe. Um, and I felt that again back when my husband died, and I remember just wanting to zen out in front of a TV.
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Dinine: So there's a particular [00:35:00] kind of toll that I keep sort of alluding to. It's this constant pressure to pretend when, whether it's in front of your kids, in front of your parents who you don't want worrying about you, or in your case, your mom, parent.
Right. Um, I don't think with sisters we o- often have to, maybe other people with their sisters. But you're kind of in your own intense darkness, and you kind of might want to just be it for a minute. Like you said- Oh, yeah ... I took off, I traveled, people noticed I wasn't. But with kids, you can't really kind of check out.
Then you're kind of almost abdicating your role as mom, which I don't think many of us are psychologically programmed to do. So how, how, I guess, did you navigate that, showing up for the people that relied on you, like your kids, I don't know, again, about your mom, but you're still trying to piece yourself back together?
How did you navigate? Or was [00:36:00] it- Well- Are you like, "Denene, this wasn't even a problem for me," like?
Aimee kandrac: Well, um, I think I was fortunate in the fact that my kids weren't with me on a day-to-day basis, so they didn't have to see- The ugly ... that shattered-
Dinine: Yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: spot. Um, and I am just really lucky that my mom and sister were so good about seeing me in my shattered spots, um, so I didn't have to do that.
But I also... I mean, I didn't even go to my regular grocery store if I had to go get things at all, 'cause I couldn't-
Dinine: You didn't wanna run into anyone ...
Aimee kandrac: I couldn't run into anyone.
Dinine: I did that for a while, too. Like- I know what you're talking about ...
Aimee kandrac: I, I could not... I was just super insular. So the few people who knew, that that's [00:37:00] just- I know
that's all I could do. And so, but, but the other point that I'm making with that is I did have to really remind myself regularly that my kids were also going through something, and I did have to be that mom sometimes. Did I do it perfectly? I mean, probably, but- ... I don't think they would say that.
Dinine: They might.
They might. I
Aimee kandrac: mean, they're... In our dreams. Oh, no, it w- um, I'm pretty sure that is not- I know ... how it would go down.
Dinine: Yes.
Aimee kandrac: But, um, but I was really f- in, just in my struggle, doing my best-
To not let my stuff be their stuff.
Dinine: I ha- It's such a struggle, though, isn't it- It's such a struggle ... when you're really deeply in it?
Aimee kandrac: Yes, but I, but I, again, had my oxygen mask of my people.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: And so my people knew [00:38:00] that I could call, and I probably would call about who knows what ridiculous ranting I...
was, was crushing me that moment.
Dinine: Okay.
Aimee kandrac: And they got that, and they knew that I was doing that so I didn't have to do it for my kids.
Dinine: Okay.
Aimee kandrac: And, and then they also reminded me that that was okay.
Dinine: So you had that... Again, we would attribute your navigation of that time to having this really amazing, even if it's a small group- Yeah
of support, and-
Aimee kandrac: Yeah ...
Dinine: I just, again, I know that some listeners don't have that.
Aimee kandrac: They
Dinine: don't. And I hope that, um, you find whatever it is, whether it's noticing birds. I remember noticing my cardinal, 'cause I was alone here- Uh-huh ... in Indy. I did have friends far, but when this trauma sort of happened to me- Mm-hmm
I was utterly alone- Yeah ... with the exception of taking care of a 17-year-old-
Aimee kandrac: Right ...
Dinine: um, who was also navigating my sudden aloneness- Mm-hmm ... in her own angry way. Right. [00:39:00] Um, and I did have to find, in my cardinal outside or in my dog, I had to find something, 'cause I couldn't be on the phone 24 hours, and there wasn't really a lot of local support.
Aimee kandrac: Right.
Dinine: Um, it was... So for you listening, I guess I just wanna say f- you gotta always try to find something. But for you, Amy, I think, again, your own oxygen mask includes that support system, and that helped you be maybe a better mom. I feel like I stumbled as a mom during some of those times. Oh, I totally stumbled.
And I'm mad at myself for that, and I'm mad at- Yes ... the issue that came into my life that caused me to stumble as a mom, um, when I've been able to navigate so many other things. Yeah. I don't like things affecting my kids, but it was just impossible to keep them protected. I was such a wreck, so.
Aimee kandrac: It, it, yeah.
Well, and we have to give ourselves permission to stumble, [00:40:00] and I hope that my kids will know that they were always forefront, and I wanted to do the best for them.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: Um, but sometimes we screw up.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: And there really aren't, like, there aren't rules. I didn't know what to do. I, there weren't, there wasn't a guidebook for it, and, um- I don't
Dinine: think there ever is, is
Aimee kandrac: there, right?
There isn't, except, okay, so I, I don't mean this as a plug, but I just recently had a realization. I'm putting together a workshop with someone, and, um- We're calling it... Well, we're still working on the title, but the one I'm using today, and I think it's super relevant right now, is, um, Love Letters.
Dinine: Oh.
Aimee kandrac: And I published a workbook, um, actually I finished it the day I found out that I had a tumor, [00:41:00] and then I got it published, um-
Dinine: I bought the workbook for my sister Yes, thank
Aimee kandrac: you.
Dinine: Yes. So- What Friends Do. It's like a journal for when you're going through a hard time- A hard time ... and you wanna organize that, help yourself with pen and paper, so to speak. Yes. It's a great journal, guys, workbook.
Aimee kandrac: So I want that to be your love letter to yourself and to your friends and your family so that you know what that oxygen mask is going to be ahead of time, right?
Dinine: I
Aimee kandrac: love that. So I'm working on this with, um, actually with, a, an estate planner and a financial planner have asked me to do a workshop with them, and I'm gonna be coming in to do all this, and I want this to be right along there with your estate planning and your financial planning. Your... This is, this is how I want to be cared for should something happen.
Dinine: I love that, especially me with my background, watching my husband- Right ... go through nine years of an [00:42:00] illness, where we're, we're brought up to think you pull the plug or you don't, right? And that's, like, a hard thing to deal with. This, um, idea I've learned now there's different gradations and steps, and what you might need at the beginning of an illness, you might not need...
My husband didn't need at the end of his illness- No ... food or, um, people, uh, you know, stopping. He needed a much more intense type of help. And-
Aimee kandrac: But you needed food-
Dinine: Right ...
Aimee kandrac: and, and support.
Dinine: And the kids
Aimee kandrac: needed something different, right? And the kids needed, the kids needed something different. But the other thing is, um...
And thanks, 'cause I'm totally just, like, workshopping this through in my head as we're talking about it. Um- Oh, I love it. I
Dinine: love the
Aimee kandrac: idea of
Dinine: love letters. That's just
Aimee kandrac: amazing, Amy ... and so, um, but, but it's a muscle that we have to, um, really train ourselves to allow people to help us in a way that [00:43:00] is, is both their gift and meaningful to us at the same time.
Dinine: Right.
Aimee kandrac: Right? And so after nine years, you f- you've, you've learned a lot, right? But the first day that that happens, you're in grief, you're in shock, you're in-
Dinine: Shock. Yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: just, just shock, and you don't know what you need, okay? But if you filled this out ahead of time and you're like, "Okay, this is how, let, this is how I like my life to look"-
Dinine: Right
Aimee kandrac: a- and I use the example of one of my favorite times of the day is my first 40 minutes in the morning when I sit all alone with my coffee-
Dinine: Yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: and, uh, doing my own thing, right? And just getting myself pulled together. Sometimes it's scrolling social media, sometimes it's reading the news, sometimes it's reading a book, sometimes it's just listening to music and puttering in my house.[00:44:00]
I love that time. If I can always have that as a part of my day should something big happen in my life, that's gonna be one of my level sets, right? That's one of my oxygen mask things.
Dinine: Right.
Aimee kandrac: What else do I love? I love sitting in my kitchen with my friends. So do I- how is that going to be-
Dinine: Incorporated
Aimee kandrac: should- incorporated.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: Right? What are the living beings in my home so that, that those things can continue to live should I not be able to care for them?
Dinine: Yeah. I really like that. I really like the idea of giving it thought. I... There were often days with my kids when they were younger and I was alone, I didn't have that 40 minutes- Right
with coffee, and I really wanted it, but I don't know that I... Yeah, if someone could've come in. I don't, uh, it's just-
Aimee kandrac: But, but if somebody, but if you told me that-
Dinine: Yeah ...
Aimee kandrac: that would- my gift would [00:45:00] be, "Oh, well, I'll take your kids." Like, that is easy for me. I would love to just take your kids out to breakfast in the morning, and then- Right
you get your 40 minutes.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: Right? Now, if you ask me to walk your dog- I- ... I'm gonna s- I'm gonna literally throw up if I- ... have to pick up the poop, so I'm not doing it. That's not my thing.
Dinine: And just for your listeners, we've gone over this, Amy and I, a few times. Yeah. I love that she's like, "I will not walk your dog."
I, Dinine, will walk your dog.
Aimee kandrac: Yes.
Dinine: Amy will not.
Aimee kandrac: Not. She won't. And, and I love dogs. I had my sister's dogs over the other day. They did poop in the backyard. I did throw up when I was picking it up. Oh, my God. Just as a heads up there. So, um, like this is not a new thing. We have another mutual friend. I walked with her and her dog one time.
Yes. Yeah. I threw up while she was picking up her dog poop. I couldn't- I can't do it. But if you told me that- Oh, my God ... you love 40 minutes alone, and you need some respite, my gift is I can totally take your [00:46:00] kids. I would love to do that. That would be a privilege for me to help you in that way, and that feels very easy to me.
Dinine: Right. Whereas walking the dog feels easy to me.
Aimee kandrac: Right.
Dinine: Not, also taking someone's kids feels easy, but like there might be- But there's things that are like- Yeah,
Aimee kandrac: right, everybody has gifts ... but like I
Dinine: have,
Aimee kandrac: I have girlfriends who are like, "Oh my God, my friend has a meal train. I can't even get food on the table for my family.
How can I get food on the table for their family?" Okay, well what can you do? What are... She's like, "I just wanna like organize her bills or something." And I was like, "Go organize her bills. That's exactly what you should do."
Dinine: So it's using what you are naturally inclined to do-
Aimee kandrac: Yes ...
Dinine: and finding what that person needs.
Aimee kandrac: Yes. And so that's one of the things actually that, um, I love about the work that I get to do with What Friends Do, is we are really trying to help people find those gifts and match them [00:47:00] up. And- That's amazing ... but, but you have to, um, get through that shock, and get through that overwhelm, and get through that grief in knowing that last week I could get the coffee by myself, and this week I can't even get off of the couch- Yeah
because I have a broken foot and a broken hand, you know?
Dinine: Yeah,
Aimee kandrac: yeah. Or whatever.
Dinine: That's s- that's something for, um- For all of us to think about when someone else is in need, what can we do that may not be the meal train or the, um- Right ... whatever, mowing their lawn. I'm not good at that. S- so, you know, the- No,
Aimee kandrac: but there are people who love it.
Right,
Dinine: right.
Aimee kandrac: Right? There are people who they... I, I have a good friend who, he was like, "I don't know what to do. I just wanna, like, go in and change all the light bulbs for 'em- Oh, my God ... that are out," right? And I was like, "That's great, Charlie. Do you know how many light bulbs are out at my house?" He's like, "Yeah, but that's easy for me.
I'll go through, [00:48:00] I'll make sure that all the door hinges are, are tightened. I'll make sure-" Love that. Like, and that's- Yeah ... his gift. He's like, "That's what I do around my own house. I would love to come in and just make sure that it's safe for you when you come back in," right? I
Dinine: love that. I- it reminds me of something now that you're saying this.
When Jonathan was sick for a couple of years, um, one of the schools I guess wanted, I don't know, maybe I couldn't get my daughter and they put something out like, this, you know, this child could really use her babysitter is always with the son, or whatever it was at the time. And, um, one of my friends just reached out to me, and I didn't know, she's like, "I'm a hairdresser.
I do, um, you know, coloring, I do haircuts, I do whatever." And she's like, "I'd love to just have you come and let me do your highlights, or lowlights, or both." And I was like, "Oh, I didn't even know she, she was... We were so, we work so hard on school, um, uh, what do you call it? The [00:49:00] committees that you're on. Yeah. I never knew that she was a hairdresser.
Yeah. So I was like, "You mean you wanna give me, like, a hair th-" Yes. She does. And she was like, "Yes." She was like, "I want you to come, sit in my chair, and let me do whatever you usually get done. That will be my gift to you during this time of crisis." And I was like, "Oh, wow. That's amazing. Thank you." So it was just an interesting thing that's something that you probably arrange all the time, but it was, I wasn't in an organized sort of, um, situation- Yeah
for those nine years. It was quite a lot of chaos at times, but okay. Well, it's- So I-
Aimee kandrac: So at the end of my podcast, I always ask all of my guests, "What's your favorite thing to do for someone when they're going through a major life event?" Um, and it- Everybody kind of has their own thing, right? You know, I have one girlfriend who said, "I'm a member of a massage club."
Like, not a club. Yeah. [00:50:00] That's not the right word. Um, you know, but she's got one of those massage memberships at a, at a place. She's like, "And I never end up using them all, so I put the extra ones on gift cards, and I just always have them in my purse. And when I sit down with someone or see one of my friends who's really struggling, I give them a massage cl- card and they can go."
I need her
Dinine: number. She needs to become my friend. Uh-huh. Oh my God.
Aimee kandrac: And she did that for me.
Dinine: That's amazing.
Aimee kandrac: And because I remember literally, like, barely being able to sit up in a booth at a restaurant while we were-
Dinine: Wow ...
Aimee kandrac: at lunch one day, and she's one who was like, "We're, we're going to lunch. This is something that you need."
And she did. She handed me the gift card, and I went and got a massage, and it was-
Dinine: Glorious ...
Aimee kandrac: glorious.
Dinine: Oh my gosh. But- I love that. So we, we talked a lot about sort of getting through, um, and I don't know if we've already addressed this, but I, I wanna ask. Um, especially our culture, there's [00:51:00] a rush, and we talked about this a little bit with pet grief.
Mm-hmm. There's a rush to kind of fix the grief or pain. I know from your story, what you teach and what you do every day, there's real power in learning to be with it, too.
Aimee kandrac: Mm.
Dinine: To be with-
Aimee kandrac: Mm-hmm ...
Dinine: what's going on. What did you discover about sitting inside that messy, uncertain space when there were no quick answers for what you were dealing with, divorce and diagnosis and empty nest?
There... I know there's no quick answers for any of that. Even though I haven't been divorced, I just know from being a live human being-
Aimee kandrac: Well, but you're, but you're also-
Dinine: A widow ... a widow. Yeah, so there's no-
Aimee kandrac: That's a, that's a... Yeah.
Dinine: There's no quick answer to either one of our situations. But, um, but when there's nothing to do but feel, I know for me, at times I remember one day my sister called and said, "I want you out of Indianapolis, like today.
I want you on a plane, [00:52:00] at my house, out of that location, out of near..."
Aimee kandrac: Yeah. "...
Dinine: there's nobody there for you. You're alone." And I said to her, n- this was not the whole time, but um, I said to her, "I want to feel this because I don't wanna ever forget. I don't wanna ever forget that this happened to me, and I want to learn how to process it so it doesn't, like, keep biting me.
And like, I wanna go through it." Mm-hmm. "I wanna come out the other side." And I did not fly out of here and go to Florida. I stayed. Um, I did at times have to leave and go to f- but this was one of those times where I said, "I'm so deep in it that I, I, I just have to feel it. I have to basically..." There's no out except through for me at that moment.
Mm. So when you think about that, when there's nothing to do but feel, not only how, how do you want to address that here, but how do you think you'll [00:53:00] bring that new knowledge of having to sit in that to your work? And I know it's not new anymore, in quotes. It's been- No, it, but it- It's new in your life, but not- Yeah
new like yesterday. But how do you think that will affect your work going forward?
Aimee kandrac: Um, that's a great question. And I mean, I think I had to sit in it for a really long time. That's what I was doing when I was alone for weeks and weeks at a time, um, living out of my car. Right, right. Again, right? I was, I was feeling it.
I was living it. And
Dinine: that goes back to the no rules, right? Like, however long-
Aimee kandrac: However long ...
Dinine: the society and culture wants to, like, prop you back up right away, and you're like-
Aimee kandrac: And, and I had people who were like, "Okay, it's time for you to come back to the real world," and I fought it. Um, and I, yeah, I did
Dinine: have to come back- Because you created your own lane, too.
Aimee kandrac: I [00:54:00] did.
Dinine: So not only did you create your own lane when you developed What Friends Do and got the first 500,000 tranche from a VC, you created your own lane in this way, which I think is deeply personal to all of us going through trauma or betrayal- Mm-hmm ... or grief.
Aimee kandrac: Yeah.
Dinine: All of them.
Aimee kandrac: Yeah. So, so I did... I just had to, I just had to sit with it.
Um, I also
When I was sitting with it, um, was really trying to be introspective and working on what do I want next? I get to s- just see a new beautiful life. And I, I still to this day don't even know what, what next beautiful things get to happen. Um, but I did some journaling, which is funny 'cause I'm not really a journaler.
[00:55:00] Um, but I did write down wish lists. What would be my wish list for my new home, my new home? What would be my wish list for the next life that I would want? Um-
Dinine: I've done that. I've done that.
Aimee kandrac: And- It's
Dinine: powerful ...
Aimee kandrac: it's super powerful, and I was able to look back. You know, I wrote a list in, like, September or October of one year and moved into a house in April, and I was like, "Oh my God, this has everything I wanted."
Dinine: Wow.
Aimee kandrac: And I put offers on lots of other houses in the meantime that just kept falling through.
Dinine: Wow.
Aimee kandrac: Um, and- That's
Dinine: amazing. That's
Aimee kandrac: the power
Dinine: of that ...
Aimee kandrac: and I was like, that's the power of that. But, um, the no rules, and no rules on time. Because I could have pushed on some of these houses.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: I could have pushed and just settled, and I didn't.
Dinine: You let it [00:56:00] evolve and
Aimee kandrac: develop. I let it evolve. And, and I did have a timeline. I was like, "I need to have a house before my kid comes home from college."
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: And I did. It was right up to the edge- ... but that's kinda how I live my life. Usually, like, if you give me a deadline, I'll, I'll get it within 15 minutes one side or the other of it.
Dinine: I'm so, I'm so... Oh my gosh. Well, I'm so grateful for all of that you shared, and I guess what I wanna ask now is where do you find the light? Where does Amy Kandrac find the light now? Mm. What brings light to her?
Aimee kandrac: Ah, ama Knowing what I
Oh, oh, I'm pulling all this together right now. I love that question. So Figuring out what a perfect day looks like for me, that [00:57:00] brings me a lot of light. So my perfect day is waking up and having my coffee by myself and doing my thing un- until 9:00 o'clock in the morning.
Dinine: Okay.
Aimee kandrac: And feeling really energized and inspired by work, which gets rough sometimes.
Um, and then going on a walk and having dinner with my best friends.
Dinine: Does-
Aimee kandrac: That brings me so much light and inspiration, but that's me. You know, that's my perfect day.
Dinine: Do you think your perfect day ever changes based on the time of the year? Um, for me, a perfect day during a snowstorm is probably staying in bed later and watching it.
Aimee kandrac: Oh, yeah.
Dinine: But a perfect day in August is probably being at the beach and listening to the ocean. So I just think-
Aimee kandrac: Yes ...
Dinine: sometimes, um-
Aimee kandrac: Oh, [00:58:00] now if I can go out and play in my garden for a little bit, um, getting out there and using my hands and I think I need to be in, like I need to touch the earth every day.
Yeah. And in the winter, I don't have to be in Indiana, and I can go ski for a few hours and work remotely, and that's a perfect day. Um, in the summer I can have my hands in the garden.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: I mean, I'm just super, super lucky that I've been able to now create and have the opportunity for all of these things, and I didn't know that was possible.
And I think that's... So while there are no rules, there's a lot of lessons.
Dinine: And- I love that. While there's no rules, there is a lot of lessons, isn't there?
Aimee kandrac: Yeah.
Dinine: If you're smart enough, like you are, to learn them and to understand them- Well- ... what
Aimee kandrac: they're telling you ... what they're telling me. And I just [00:59:00] didn't know, and clearly I wasn't learning them, and it took my entire life being shattered and broken apart.
Dinine: Yeah. We're a little different in that respect, 'cause I felt like I had learned quite a few lessons before I moved here. And then there was a whole new book that was opened up about lesson learning, so, uh-
Aimee kandrac: I, I, I would say, you know- Yeah ... like I, I hope that I don't have to go through something that traumatic again for more lessons to be
Dinine: learned.
Ditto. Right? Universe,
Aimee kandrac: if
Dinine: you're listening, ditto.
Aimee kandrac: Yeah.
Dinine: Yeah.
Aimee kandrac: Yeah.
Dinine: Okay, me and Amy, we kinda...
Aimee kandrac: We, we would love to... And look, there are things that are way worse than what I went through. Um-
Dinine: Same. Ditto
Aimee kandrac: also, yeah ... and I do not mean to, to do that at all. Um, but I'll go back to like, what do, what do I need so that I can have that oxygen mask first?
And that, for me- Is my people
Dinine: Your people and your morning coffee
Aimee kandrac: And my morning coffee
Dinine: So you are someone who has definitely found the light out of your dark, and I'm really grateful that you shared it
Aimee kandrac: Oh, [01:00:00] thanks
Dinine: And, um, this conversation has been really helpful to me. I hope it's helpful to those of you that are listening.
Amy, I wanna thank you for sharing your story and your light, and you remind us that even in the darkest moments, we can still find a s- a s- tiny sliver because it's there, and you just have to keep looking. And your story, I think, shows us. And we can reach for connection and community and for that oxygen mask in whatever form it takes.
So if you wanna learn more about Amy's work, you can check out whatfriendsdo.com. You can pick up the journal. I believe... I didn't get it on Amazon, but it, it's available on Amazon. Um, it's just called the What Friends Do Journal, right?
Aimee kandrac: Yeah. The What Friends Do, uh, Planner. I'll
Dinine: get a- Planner. That's right Yeah Planner.
And the What Friends Do Kitchen Chats podcast, and if Amy, um, if you want anything else for the listeners to look for, we'll have it in the [01:01:00] show notes by the time the show gets, um, published. So thank you all so much for sitting with us, and thank you, Amy Candrak, for sitting with us on The Space In Between.
We'll see you soon, guys. Bye
Thank you so much for joining me today. Remember that even in your worst days, there is always something beautiful. You just need to look for it until next time