Queering Organizational Change: Trust the rollercoaster

Show Notes

In this episode we talk with Harold Steward and Evelyn Francis, Producing Co-executive Directors of The Theater Offensive in Boston Massachusetts.  The Theater Offensive is a member of the Beta Cohort of LANE and has been on an organizational journey from a white led organization serving, supporting and employing people of color to and arts organization of color. Listen to them share what they have learned about themselves and organizational development along this journey.

What is TACtile?

TACtile is the podcast for Leveraging a Network for Equity (LANE) a program of the National Performance Network. This podcast discusses practical tools and concepts designed to transform the field of Arts and Culture towards equity and justice. This podcast is produced by LANE Cohort members, Sage Crump and is edited by Jazz Franklin.

Sage Crump: Thank you for tuning into TACtile, a practical guide to transforming art and culture. This is the podcast of Leveraging a Network for Equity--LANE, a program of the National Performance Network. LANE supports arts organizations of color and rural organizations with time and resources needed to grow their infrastructure in ways that are culturally authentic and moves the field towards justice. I'm your host, Sage Crump, programs specialist for LANE.

Music Introduction: (sung) Keep on a walking. Keep on a talking. Marching up to freedom land. Ain't gonna let no jailhouse turn me around.

SC: And welcome, everyone, to another episode of TACtile: Transforming Art and Culture, the podcast of Leveraging a Network for Equity, program of the National Performance Network. My name is Sage Crump, and I'm your host for this podcast. And I'm really excited about this opportunity today, because we have one of our Beta cohort members, the Theater Offensive out of Boston, Massachusetts to talk with for this podcast. The Theater Offensive joined LANE a few years ago. I guess we're in year three now. And has just been one of the organizations that I feel like has really taken hold and really used LANE, like, squozen every inch out of it, and so I'm really excited to talk with their producing co-executive directors, and I'm gonna have them introduce themselves.

Harold Steward: My name is Harold Steward. As Sage has said, you know, I'm producing--, new producing co-executive directors--. These are new titles for us as of July 1st. I've been with the Theater Offensive for two years. I hit my two year mark this past June. Hailing from Dallas, Texas, which is home, working at the South Dallas Cultural Center. So I came in as a managing director, quickly moved to acting, then interim executive director, and now I'm producing co-executive director.

Evelyn Francis: My name is Eveyln Francis. I use she/her/hers for pronouns, and I have worked with the organization--, I started actually in 2001. Abe Rybeck, our founding director, came to a performance of my thesis project at Emerson College and was like, There's this job working with queer young people. Maybe you wanna apply for it. (2:32) And I did, and very happily joined the team in 2001 as a teaching artist, and over the course of several years, also worked as the director of education and then the director of programs and now the producing co-executive director. And so I've had opportunity to see about 18 years of the organization's growth and development and change and am really excited for the future working with Harold.

SC: Mmm. Well I feel like we hit the jackpot. I mean, I think you all have such bookends experiences that , that you can share with folks. You've got someone who's been in the organization with two years now, with Harold. And then, Evelyn, going on 16, 17 years. We have a lot of that in NPN, too. Folks who are, you know, 13, 14, 17, 18 years, you know. And so there's, there's so much to think about around the trajectory of the Theater Offensive. But before we kind of launch into that, there's always one question we, we start with at the top of TACtile, and that's because the, the, the name implies what it is, like, we're talking about the transformation of art and culture. We're talking about how change happens inside our field, inside our organizations, what changes might be inside ourselves necessary to be the leaders for our organizations in a just future. And so, I'm gonna ask you the question I ask everyone, which is, how do you believe change happens? (4:07)

HS: Hm. I think for me, just thinking about this question I go to the popular education spiral, right? And the first step is the call. So I feel like there's some kind of incident, there's something really driving the change, I think there's a variety of different things that can really make it necessary for some change, but what's like the impulse, you know. So, again, there's some kinda call or something that feels like this is a moment for--, a necessity for change, and then, are you as an individual, and in our case organizations, or whatever, willing to kinda respond to the call, like this call for change?

EF: Yeah, I think that's beautifully put, Harold. When I was thinking about this earlier, I was thinking about the impact, you know. When I have had personal changes in my life, someone has impacted me in a particular way, or I've found myself impacting someone else and noticing that impact, and saying, Hmm. That wasn't what I intended. And so that real, like, shift--, the like, like, molecular shift that can happen in your own body when you see how you are impacting others--, I feel like that is just a microcosm of the macrocosm. And I think it's a challenge to see it, to see, what does change look like, what does impact look like? I think we feel it so deeply in our bodies, the impact and change, but how do you notice it outside of your own body, I think, is something we're constantly working at at the Theater Offensive; I feel like i"m personally trying to work at it all the time as well. (6:09) So, I think it's a really compelling question, and one that I'm always working to discover.

SC: Thank you. Thank you both for that. I was, I was with some folks this weekend, or maybe it was two weeks ago, and I was talking with someone about change and working with folks, and we were laughing, cause whenever you ask the question, like, Do you believe we need to change? Everyone's like yes, and then you're like, Are you ready to change yourself in order to make that change happen? Crickets, crickets, crickets! You know? (all laugh)

HS: I mean, maybe.

EF: Hmm. What do you mean?

SC: Exactly. Some things.
(all laugh)

HS: I know, like, I just got this hair color. I'm not changing it.

SC: Exactly. Exactly. And so, what are the things that, you know--. What made TTO feel like you were ready for change? Like, when you applied to LANE, it's with the--, it was with the understanding, well, I hope, that this four years was going to be spent, you know, thinking about the organization and, and we try and write the application in a way that asks people to think really deeply about their selves, their organizations and, and what, what they want to investigate over these, over the four years, and so--. I'm curious, when you're talking about that--. Both, listening to both of you describe how do you think change happens, both from the impetus piece that you were talking about, Harold, and then also, Evelyn, this idea of being able to look outside yourself to see what needs to change inside, this sort of iterative process, like, what was going on, what was it, five years ago, that you all were like--? Well, I guess three years ago. And you're like, Huh. Let's, let's go ahead and dive into this thing that no one knows about or has never existed before. (8:00)

HS: So, I would actually go back and say five years ago, five or more years ago, because the organization applied for the Alpha cohort.

SC: Okay.

HS: And, you know, for whatever reason--. I mean, I was not with the organization then, but they, I think, thinking about LANE and this opportunity, the organization wanted to respond immediately or felt like it needed it from the onset. And I think in the Beta cohort round, the decision to go back in, maybe some of the same initial thoughts and why this opportunity for LANE would be right for the Theater Offensive. Abe Rybeck, the founding director was preparing to exit the organization, which we knew would overlap with the four years of LANE, so kinda at the thirtieth mark, which we are at now, celebrating our 30th anniversary; he's the founder, so for 30 years, he's been shepherding this, so in the at kind of succession planning moment we were in, I think, also, after a lot of years of kind of growth in programs, growth in finances, and growth in staff, organizational growth, there were some challenges, and the organization really needs to figure out how to change its strategy, or how it looks at itself to sustain its growth or really reassess where it was as an organization. I think, really, the Theater Offensive, being a leader in a lot of regards in terms of, you know, theater, cultural organizing, culture, arts and culture, arts and community, whatever category you wanna put it in, but also being a learning organization, the idea of going deeper with some of the members organizations of NPN: what could we learn, what could we share? (10:08) Like, the organization thrives on those type of initiatives. So, it was all kind of enticing. And I think, you know, we're an organization that likes to be a part of initiatives, things that are new. So, even getting in early, I think was also kind of enticing as well. But, in terms of what was going on in the organization, we were in a succession moment. We really needed to look at our business model. Again, because that business model shift for us would have been--. Like, ten years ago, the Theater Offensive changed the business model again, so it was time to look at how the business model was working, like, ten years later, and being able to do that with support from consultants, again, was an opportunity. Organization life cycle, again, we were gonna hit 30, so that was another opportunity. and really who would the Theater Offensive of the future be? Was a question. So, yeah, I think LANE is a rare opportunity to think through all of that, and for us, to have access to it because of our membership in NPN, I think we would fool ourselves, if we didn't at least try to be a part of the initiative, was my thoughts.

SC: What I'm curious about, in listening to Harold, is also this, this arc, it sounds like, of, like, there was a change ten years ago, here we are another ten years, and--. Can you , can you speak a little bit about what the changes might have been? Like, what felt like a shift ten years ago, and what feels like a shift, what feels important about the shift that's happening right now?

EF: Yeah. So, the shift ten years ago. So, the financial crisis was happening in the world.

SC: Mm-hmm.

EF: And it was crushing small theater companies all over America and the world, and we were not immune to that. (12:23) And it--. The way forward. I think Abe, as our founder, changed--. He is not--. When we talk about change, he is not allergic to change. He thrives on change, right? Chaos is, you know, his god. He loves change and what it kind of brings up in community and with funders. It's something new and exciting to talk about. And he--. As we were doing our work, something that we noticed is, in Theater--. So, we had a festival that ran for many years, and it was one of the first LGBTQ specific festivals, and it was one of the first in Boston, but one of the first in the country. And it was a very, very proud thing, and we were holding on, you know, to the very end with a death grip, really. And what we realized is that it was kind of past its, it's time. Folks weren't coming out for it as much and people weren't funding it. The funders were not putting money towards festivals the way they were--. Or in theater productions as well. But what people were putting money towards were community engaged activities, and we knew how to do that really well in our youth programming; it was very clear; youth development models are very clear about those who are taking part in activities, lead those activities, and build those activities. So the idea that community, any community would come together to create work based on models that they had created themselves was not a unique idea for our company. And so, one of the reasons I moved from director of education to director of programs was because I had a skillset in that, in understanding how community comes together to build, build work together. So, we had a big staff shift. We went down to only two and a half staff members. This was ten years ago, and really had to figure out, how do we do the work the most efficient, and then over the course of the years, after people started to really understand what we were doing with our out in your neighborhood strategy, bringing art to all corners of Boston and trying to make sure that folks who didn't have access to art could have access in their neighborhoods. (14:57) And they were building And they were building work in their neighborhoods. That the excitement for our work was there, and funders started showing back up to say, We believe in what you're doing, and then it wasn't just, We believe in what you're doing, the community was saying, You're the leader in what you're doing, and we're very very excited about that. And what we discovered is that communities, specifically communities of color, were the ones most (5 words inaudible) (15:30) work. And I think the very exciting thing about this point now is to say, explicitly, We are a people of color organization, and how are we focusing and centering people of color in our mission, in our work, in our values, and in everything that we do, rather than not saying that just up front. And I feel like that's a very exciting first step for our organization. And there's a lot to discover. Because we've had a white cis male leadership for a very long time, there's a lot to discover in this moment, as Abe did ten years ago to say, Here's where our work is headed, are you on board with us? (16:14) I feel like we're back in that place to say, Here's where our work is moving, are you on board with us, will you continue to support us? Community, funders, foundations, will you continue to support us? And that links back to why I think LANE is so important. It's so clear what the world could look like. When you're at LANE, it's so clear what the world could look like. And I feel like if we could show that to people, that they would absolutely wanna support that world with us.

SC: Mm.

HS: I agree. One thing I thought about as you were speaking, Evelyn, in terms of, like, where we are now, and I think it's something you and I think about all the time, as the kind of new official leaders of this organization; we've made some proclamations. We're a queer trans people of color organization. And there are still questions on, like, what that means. And I think for me, that it's exciting to know some things and not to know others, right? To get to discover again. Because it makes me feel like an active participant as much as a quote unquote leader. But also not totally erasing and not using what we've learned from history and carrying on some of the historic things that have worked, and recently I was at some event, responding to a question similar like this about the future of the Theater oOfensive. And I just happened to be reading, in my travels, Cathy Cohen's, Punks, Bulldaggers, and Welfare Queens, the radical possibility of queer politics. (18:00)

SC: It's an amazing text.

HS: And much of what I've read about the Theater Offensive, and understood, and what I was seeing in the text was like, Oh, this was the Theater Offensive in terms of real queer political activism using culture, and I was wondering, in terms of, like, vision, cause you know, everybody like, What is your vision for the organization? Is like, how do we go back to that, you know, how do we really reengage or deeper engage with punks, bulldaggers, welfare queens, queer and trans folks, as you know, as you were talking about the community, it's like, I think, if we be specific, that's the community we're talking about as people who aesthetics we value, their opinions we value, who art and cultural production we wanna center, in a way that feels right for this moment. And I think the difference is the queer and trans people of color kind of focus, where we've always been inclusive and now, centering those experiences, what does that mean? And I think this moment of, you know, working towards liberation your whole life or whenever you decide to work on it, I think it's rare where you get to see the fruits of your labor, I guess, to put it in that regard. There's a lot about queer and trans people of color, artists, and things that I do not know, right that I, I, I, I'm struggling to understand, but I've been working towards liberating us all my adult life. And what I'm understanding is that, Oh, this is the liber--. The liberation that you're seeing, like, how queer and trans people are showing up is what you've worked towards, even if you don't know it right now. But it's like a thing of beauty when you see more trans representation, when you see a pushback and questioning of aesthetics and ways of being and things like that, and you can see liberation, and you can vision it, and it can look exactly how you saw it, or it can look totally different, but what Nina Simone says, I'll tell you what freedom is to me: no fear. But if that feeling is there of like, you know, even, and I"ll just, if I'm being honest about, there's' a lot that I don't know. (20:35) But I wanna--, around our aesthetic, our work, who, what, the variety, but if it's done from a place where we're not fearing walking into it, you know, we're taking educated risk, or we're investing in risk, you know, there's room for much joy and celebration. It feels like this is the right time for that type of moment. That we're not always on the offensive, even though that's our name, and I think the offensive is the affirmative, right? You know, it affirms our existence when we say, Oh no, we're not--that shit is not, no, anti that. Or it affirms something, but I'm really excited about continuing and really elevating the joy and celebration that queer and trans people of color bring into the work. As well as the fight.

SC: You know, I, I--, listening to both of you, it's also making me think about even the, the trajectory inside the organization reflects that, like this idea of, how do our internal movements reflect what we're talking about externally, and the ways in which you were, you were referencing , Harold, you know, TTO applied to LANE twice, like, started--, and, and Evelyn, when you were talking about, what I, what I was cueing into was the ways in which the Theater Offensive looks at the, the landscape, the context, decides, like, this is the, this is the right movement for us in this time and then says to folks, hopefully you're gonna come along with us-. (22:11) Are you gonna, are you gonna, are you gonna be able to rock with us? Right like, this is where we're headed. And it feels like there's been a series of that, and you're in another moment of that, and I just wanna, back to the affirm, I think that's, that's back to Nina Simone, right. It's not no fear, cause Nina was actually like, she was fearless. And, and--. (SC and HS laugh) Could wish--, if we could all be Nina Simone.

HS: Mmm.

SC: But it is this like, I don't know what's gonna happen when I make this change. But I do know this change needs to happen.

EF: Mm-hmm.

HS: Mm-hmm.

SC: And, and you all have demonstrated that over and, and over again, and I think that's where a lot of folks get hemmed up, you know, of like, I, I can't move, cause I need to know exactly what's gonna happen on the other side of it, and so I'm wondering if there are things that you can share with folks about what it means to be inside, like you called it a learning organization. What it means to be inside a learning organization or inside a place that takes, that takes risks, calculated, mitigated, whatever words we wanna put in front of risk, but that, that takes that risk and what makes that okay. How do you all find the place to be like, Okay. We're going to do this because it's the movement that we know needs to happen, even if we don't know how it's going to turn out?

EF: Earlier, before we started taping or recording, Harold said, Change is upon us, and it is up on us. Like, it is heavy on us, and it means that there's so much change, and it's coming so quickly, that there's a way in which we have to have a deep trust for one another--

HS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

EF: --and not just--. Me--, Harold and I, absolutely. And I do. I trust him so much. And I, I think also our team, that we have to trust our team. And you know, we work with some spectacular people. (24:19) Some of which who have done this work for many, many years, some decades. And trusting that they know what they are doing, that when they see something happening, or they see a response in the community, that they'll bring it to light, that they'll bring it to the table, that they'll be able to have, find space to talk about it, to process it. I think trust is a big part of this. And you have to earn that. That every ounce of trust you have to earn, and there are some days where I feel like we're trusted, and other days where I feel like, I don't know if I trust myself to do this at this point. So, it's--, it's definitely a rollercoaster ride, but I'd say for folks who are trying to do this, that that’s what it feels like, and that as long as you can stay with the Wheeeeeee! instead of the Ahhhhhhhhh!, then you can, you can really get to the end of the ride to see what you've created together, you know? I think that you--, there's such an opportunity there, if you just understand the ride is not always gonna be beautiful, it's not always going to be fun, but it--, all in all it's worth it.

HS: Yeah! I think, well put, Evelyn. I think things that I would add, you know, I'll speak for myself, and I think Evelyn would agree. It's funny, cause you know, we're trying to figure out when we're the collective, we--, we're still working on a collective name, or when we're individuals, but we talk a lot, so the trust moment is like, I don't think I'm saying anything that Evelyn will disagree with, or even say, No, that's not how I see it, but we--. This is something that we had to learn to do, like, how to really communicate the change that was happening within the organization, who needed to know what information, how much of what. You know, so we really had to, you know, make the road by walking it. (26:23) We had some resources. I think LANE, as you said, Sage, you know, we really take every article we get, every syllable that comes out of Sage Crump's mouth, we're hanging on to it as kind of guidance and instructions, but a couple of things that was key in terms of the learning and applying stuff around communications is we ask people, you know, board, staff, to really assess how they deal with change because we knew that there was a lot of change, and I think it was important to name it, for us, again, thirtieth anniversary, Abe was leaving. New leadership, new organization structure. This LANE thing, right? So, it wasn't just one thing was happening--. And they would happen, you know, in this, kind of, chronological order, they were all kinda happening at the same time, and still recovering from some of the change that had happened previously, or things that just, that was already shaken up. So, there wasn't a recovery moment before it was like, Oh! And now all of this new stuff was gonna happen. So we asked folks to really take a moment and just think about how they deal with change, because we knew we were gonna have a lot coming, and it would be complex. It would not be linear. But we wanted to lean into the complexities. We were committed to figuring some things out. And if for your--. And wellness is very important, right? Because change can be triggering, right? It can change--, it can be--. Yeah. It can be triggering in terms of, Oh, I remember when my parents got a divorce.Or I remember when we moved. Or I--. You know it's like--. It can be very very triggering because it looks like instability--. It can look like that. So, if you couldn't deal with that, or if you needed resources, you know, we asked folks to communicate that. But if it was your time to figure out if you could really be with this organization in this critical moment or not, you had to assess that. So, some people have stayed, and they've been patient, they've been vocal, they've really contributed to where we are now. (28:41) Other people made a decision that, and a good, personal decision that we respect, that they needed to move on from the organization. And just always having that moment that you could check in with leadership or anybody about how this change is feeling, or you know, what you need in this moment. And again, we did that on the board level, we did that on a staff level, and I think for us, in this moment of, like, risk--. We were honest about what we were doing, so, you know, right now everything is an experiment. Even our titles, you know. They will appear for as long as they need to appear, but nothing--. In a moment of change, nothing is permanent, you know?

SC: Mm-hmm.

HS: So, don't get used to, like, permanence. So--. But we had to be honest about our needs, where we are, and kinda what was going on. So transparency is really clear, if you're gonna ask people to stay with you through the complexities. I think there are things that we're all learning about change. Because, you know, some of the change that you advocate for may affect you differently than you thought it was. (30:00) So again, it may be your budget that's cut, in order to make way for something you feel like is a real value and we need, and it was like, Oh. When I was advocating for that, I wasn't like, cut my budget to get it, but it was like, Oh, we're talking about change and where we can give, what can we receive, and how we can collectively really make this moment happen. And I think if the change is all rooted in a better TTO for the staff, for the board, for the artists, for the community, then we have, you know, a constant reminder of, like, We're doing this because this is the TTO we wanna see. This is how we wanna show up in the world. This is the effect that we want on individuals, and you can't do that remaining the same, you know? So there's some give and take. So, I also think being really clear with, even funders, around, This is where we are in this moment. So you, too, get to make this same decision. You with TTO? Or maybe you need to rethink some things. To have people consistently stand with us and know who needed to make--. Who needed to have a different relationship with the organization.

SC: Hm. That's--. That's really helpful. That's really helpful for me to hear. I think it's helpful for a lot of folks to hear. Especially the way you two dovetail each other so well when I listen to you both, so thank you. Because what I'm thinking about--, what it's got me thinking about in the moment, is what's the difference between Whee and Ahhh, right, like? (EF laughs) And, and a part of that, that difference on that rollercoaster of when you're like, This is, this is an experience or, This is terrifying, is about how we can continue to find a place of wonder or question or inquiry, right? (32:01) And--. The question that comes up for me is like, How do you two stay in a space of like, this is an experiment, and, and we're trying some new things, and we're, we're excited about where TTO can go, when I know folks want you to have answers, cause that's what folks do. They want you to provide comfort in answers. And when you don't have those, for folks, how do you help--. Cause what I'm also hearing is you all have found a way to keep folks in the collective, in their collective sense, and, and so, I would love if you'll talk a little bit about how you do that. (32:38)

HS: So I wanna talk about the organization I encountered, right? And what made it easy for me. And so, before I got here, you know, the constant interrogation of white supremacy, and white supremacy culture and how it showed up in the organization. You know, it was an organization that was building that kind of collective already, and that kinda risk taking and things like that, and, and, I think, again, the constant interrogation was really undoing a lot of the white supremacy culture that was within the organization. So I, I think that's been kinda key, and exciting because there's a lot of things that we're undoing in this change moment that is tied to white supremacy that's kind of exciting because, if you can--. If you look at it on the institutional level, then maybe you can look at it maybe on an individual level and other things. So. That's my thoughts.

EF: I, I think that's so well put, Harold. The thing that was coming up for me was the, the culture that existed, and part--. There were the toxic parts of our culture that were there that we already knew existed and we needed to work on it. It had been pointed out internally, externally; there were all these ways where it was like, Oh no, oh no, this is not who we wanna be. So there's a way in which a tim--, the timing of the shift was really critical. But I'd say the folks who want answers from us, something I think that folks do know is that we are not afraid of change. (34:19) And we're not afraid to say we don't have the answers, and that we truly, truly want the community to contribute to what the answers are. And I, I, it's not that no one else is doing that. There are lots of amazing organizations in Boston and elsewhere that are doing that. And it takes time, and it takes thoughtfulness, and preparation to gather people in a room, really hear what they have to say, and then see how that comes out of the stew, you know, what, what--, everybody puts into the pot is all something different, and what that stew becomes in the end is something we--, sometimes it's inedible; it's, it's a stew that nobody can eat. And other times it's like, this is sweeter than we ever thought it could be with all the, the community contributing to it. So, I think that is part of the DNA of the Theater Offensive, because our founding in 1989 as a guerilla street theater troupe was in response to the AIDS, the early AIDS epidemic, and that was the reason we existed. We came into being was something was happening in the community, and the organization was built to respond to that. And so, we've gone far away from those roots, and so when folks are, are saying, Why don't you have the answer, Evelyn? Why don't you have the answer, Harold? I--, we can genuinely say, well we've, we'e gotta talk to the community. (36:05) And we'll--, we'll give you an answer soon as we feel like we have one from them.

SC: I think that's--, that's really amazing. Cause that was the other thing I was hearing. Listening to you, Evelyn. I was, I was thinking about a quote by Jackson, Jackson Mississippi mayor, may he rest in power, former Pan-Africanist and Civil Rights Lawyer, Chokwe Lumumba would say, Trust the people,and the people will prove themselves trustworthy. And that's the first time I had heard it, was attributed to Chokwe Lumumba, but I think that there's something that happens sometimes in community-based organizations where folks serve a community, right, like? And they serve it in a way that they're like, Oh. I see what you need, let me offer this. Or even on the absolute other end of the pendulum is, Tell us everything, and we'll just do what you say because we're really afraid to actually engage you. So, you, you, you know. And so like, and what it sounds like is you all are in the middle where you're like, Oh, we are all the community, and so we listen to each other, and we and we make this soup together, right, like, is, is what I'm hearing. And I'm really appreciating you talking about the formation of TTO, because it feels like because the AIDS epidemic was, was the, the genesis by which it was like, folks had to trust each other, right, like, we knew the state wasn't coming through. We knew folks were dying, like, there were all kinds of things where it was like, We all we got. The, the original, We all we got, right, and--. Meaning literal survival. (HS laughs) And so, as you, as--. And being an arts organization that's borne out of that, the trust in, in folks and being a part of the community feels really vital in ways that I don't often hear folks speak about, so, I'm appreciating that. (38:03) So I'm curious about, like, what--. Is there anything, like, around things that you've learned through this journey that you would share, folks? I, I kinda wanna key in specifically, but I wanna hear what you all might feel like, I wanna share, like, this is something that I've learned that I think folks should know about when they're encountering cha--. I mean, you all have already talked about the growth and, and then, what I liked to call the slinky theory, where it kind of expands and then contracts and how you kind of move through it. Y'all have talked about so many different things, but I'm--. Is there anything in particular you're like, Look. If you're gonna embark on some deep transformative--. Not, not just like, you know, this is cute, we're just gonna change some desks around, but if you're gonna embark on some deep transformative change, here's--. Here's a thing that you should be thinking about.

HS: We've been talking about the collective, and I think it's important to do it in a collective. You know, for us, LANE, we have the same cohort of organizations. We have consultants and things like that to where we couldn't just exist in our own little bubble and do this, and not to say that would be the way that we would wanna do it, but even within the organization, what is--. How are you doing this collectively? Again, if you look at some organizational structure, all of the vision lies within one person (laugh), the change strategy is one person. Typically, it's a ED who is up at the top, working quote unquote in conjunction with the board. And you know, it's like, but really, is that what you're doing? Or is it, you know, one person carrying the bulk of this, and the value, the risk, the opportunity, the accountability, the rewards can be shared. Especially because all of the uncertainty, and the change is well informed, and I think, you know, really understanding myself and my limitations, so the more you can have diverse opinions, can have a collective, I think the richer the outcomes are. (40:09) Evelyn and I always talk about, you know, our differences. Besides the obvious ones, but the way we think. And so, invitation for those differences to exist and inform a thing has really helped, cause this change moment, cause there are a lot of things that I hadn't thought about the way in which she thought about it, or the way in which Rebecca, or other staff people, kinda think about it. So you have to kinda, you know, work in a collective, run it by the collective before--. And that, to me, is a well informed decision, and so when you present it back to the people, you have some either justification of why you made this decision and and things like that, but trying to go at it alone, even if that's your quote unquote job responsibility, I think may be an error for some folks.

EF: Mm-hmm. Thinking a little bit about kind of this, this process, there's this interesting parallel that I'm finding, you know, as the, the, adjectives that I'm using to describe your work to other people or what have you, you know, using words like transparency and clear communication and trust and--. And you know, I've been with my partner for 21 years, and I just think, like, Oh. The, the greatest relationship of my life has taught me how to have a good relationship with each and every person in this organization and the community, right? So, I think about this, like, deep, deep love that I have for her, and this deep, deep love that I have for this community, and how do I translate that love to these actionable things: you know, being clear and being, being willing to apologize when you really screw something up. (42:11) Accepting responsibility, all the things that make really great relationships. And that was a surprise to me. It wasn't a way in which I had thought about my role as a leader before. You know, it felt very--. I guess I was very implementation driven, and I realize how important relationships are. (42:36) You know, the--, all the systems that you build in an organization are to support relationships, whether it be a database or an evaluation tool or you know, making a key for the front door, that's about a relationship with another human being. And so that was something that I feel like I've learned in this process, and I feel like, Oh my god. I think I know how to do this, have a good relationship. So that, that's been exciting, and a surprise. And then the other thing is that, like, the, the rules part of this. You know, there, there are rules in making organizations, right? There are boundaries, there are limitations, we have boards, all of that. But there are certain things that I think Harold and I have sat down and said, now wait a minute. Why does--, why are we doing that? Why does it work that way? Why don't we have--

SC: Yes.

EF: --off from Christmas to New Years every year? Why is that a thing? Nobody else is working, why are we? Or, you know, there are just these things that are every day burdens on staff that we can say, we don't have to do that. That's not necessary. There is no law that says we have to do it that way, and there's no--, nothing in the employee handbook that says we have to do it that way, that we are required to do it that way. And to just be able to call into question each of those things as they come up, I think that's the way in which we can revolutionize our field is to say, Why is it that we do it this way? (44:08) And can we do it differently so humans can be respected in this system that's been built.

SC: Mmm. That's a mic drop right there, Evelyn. There's this question of like, the question we never ask, like, why? You know, I was with--, I was doing consulting with an organization last week, and I just--. I was like, You can't policy and procedure manual your way out of white supremacist culture, you know? Like, you can't, like, that actually doesn't work that way.

EF: If only. If only.

SC: If only it took a manual to rewrite, and then you're like, Mm, we're done. We've rewritten our mission, our values and our policy manual, thank you so much. Sage, here's a check. And I'm like, Actually, that's not the work.

HS: What I was gonna say, When we do that, we think we're worthy of a certificate of achievement, like, we've done it, and I think, in this undoing work that we're doing around white supremacy culture is like, Oh, there's no--. There's no certificate of achievement because the paper is not what we're looking for. We're looking to transform the world. So when you feel like the world has been transformed then maybe. One, you have to figure out how to sustain it--. Sustain the transformation.

SC: It almost feels like when, when a magician pulls out the, the handkerchief, and it's one color, and then it's the next color, and like, the handkerchief never ends, and it just keeps coming, and you're like, How do you enjoy the colors? The undoing work is just like, Oh, look at all the different colors, you know, that are possible. (HS and SC laugh)

EF: I love that.

SC: Yes. That's what you all are, are talking about, and that's what you all are making me think of, and specifically the, How do we be in our dignity and create systems in which everyone can be in theirs on this path to liberation. The last question I'm curious about, because I think you all are one of the organizations that has leaned into the cornerstones in a, in a really thoughtful way. And so, one of the things we do with the, with this podcast, with TACtile, is we have a, a--. A podcast that's about one of the cornerstones, and then we have a, you know, a cohort member, right. (46:28) We kind of
We kind of go back and forth so folks sort of get a bit of the theory and then some sense of the application of what it could look like inside an organization, and, you know, our, our cornerstones are emergence, racial justice and cultural equity, popular education, and design justice. Of which you all have already spent the last 40 minutes schooling us on in depth, but just in case folks don't actually put the word next to the deed, I wanted to ask you all if you can speak on ways that you see those things connected or living inside your work or the way that you work.

HS: So I would say one of the things about the cornerstones, it was easy to--. We had permission to implement 'em in the organization because, you know, they were attached to this initiative, and while LANE is not necessarily just about the funding, it's a whole four-year, kind of, initiative and experience, not necessarily a grant; the way in which kinda staff and board understood it initially was like, Oh, NPN is a different type of funder now, it's not just about subsidy, but, like, in many ways a major funder for the organization, so it gave us as leaders of the organization permission to say, A funder is asking us to consider these cornerstones, I think we should do it because, you know, we got the funding. And which everyone was open to. So what we had to assess: racial and cultural justice, you know, what does that look like? Popular education: what is it, do we do it? You know, Oh, we were doing it one way, now it's called this thing. Emergence, I think, was the one that felt the newest and the deepest learning curve for all of us, but again, using adrienne maree brown's work, you know, as a young Black--, open invitation to be like, Oh please, tell me more, can we read more? (48:31) Can we apply that? Which one am I missing? And design justice, because what I forgot to mention is another kind of component of change that was happening within the organization was strategic planning. And so, the organization had kinda named some things that they wanted to explore: shared leadership, you know, racial justice and, and things like that, and deepening the engagement with community. So those four cornerstones just gave us permission to be who we were saying--, vocalize, you know, that we were--, explore how to get there. So, I think again, the racial justice piece really shows up in terms of, you know, becoming a queer and trans people of color organization, we really have looked at our, you know, the not quite thirty years at that moment of, like, the role of people of color within the organization and shaping the change that happened kinda ten years ago, to the Out In Your Neighborhood strategy was out in four largely people of color neighborhoods, so that's where we were spending all of our time and our work, so the question was, What does it look like to commit to people of color by mention? Is that, you know, in tune with our racial justice values? When we created that plan, one of the things that we said in that strategic plan was "eliminating homophobia in our neighborhoods required eliminating racism, too." You know, so we seen em kinda connected, so making that move to really focus on racial justice and people of color by mission was a easy move, again, if we're undoing white supremacy within the organization, what does it mean not to center white cis male experts, or, or things like that. (50:29) So, what does a community say? How do we know this is what the community is saying? And then, how can we co-design with community, or some of the things that you know, we're still tryna figure out, but actively using those cornerstones along the way.

EF: Mm-hm. It's been a magnificent roadmap for us, as they are cornerstones for a reason, and I, I feel like they--, they're holding up the building right now (*laugh) n some ways. Helping keep the foundation together. And it's so clear, these four were--, I remember Harold and Abe came back from a meeting, and they gave me the pamphlet, and I just thought, God, this feels like what we've been trying to say but just couldn't find the way to say it. But it tied in all the ways in which we were working with community. I agree with Harold, some of the emergence elements were really difficult because most often the pace of a theater company is so--. Like, you have to be on the edge, go, go go, all the time, and so emergent--, emergence meant really sink down into what we're doing. And I--, I do feel like that dovetailed with racial justice felt like, Oh, right. This is how white supremacy shows up in my body. That go, go, go, don't think about it just do? (52:06) Those two things, and the settling in that we did, particularly around the strategic plan, it was just beautiful. It was a beautiful moment to just realize how all of that has been so in my body, and that it's gonna take a lot of work for me to stay vigilant, to keep culling through it, and to try to be present, to be with community and do this work. And try to be a good ally goddamnit. It's gonna take work, work, work, work, work. And these four cornerstones are a constant reminder of the work that needs to be done.

SC: (laugh) And I, I appreciate you for throwing a Rihanna in there. (EF laughs) As a reminder. I think that's beautiful. I was like, yes. I love talking to TTO, so if you're stuck with the organization, you're concerned, play a little Rihanna: work, work, work, work, work; and it'll--

HS: Work. Work.

SC: -it'll all work. It'll work itself--.

HS: But don't just play, Rihanna. You gotta get Rihanna in your body.

EF: And that it came from me. That I'm the one who said it.

HS: Get it in your body, damn.

EF: Sweet god.

HS: Move.

SC: Get it in your body.

EF: Channel her. Get it in your body.

SC: Wonderful. Well I so appreciate the time you all are taking to talk with me today. I learn so much every time I get to sit and talk with you both. Both about TTO and just about--. It just feeds me a lot in my thinking around, like, how change is happening, and I'm really grateful for you all participating in LANE for the way you have, and for the way you're showing up not just for your organization, but for the rest of us, and so just gratitude, so much gratitude for both of you. And, is there any--, anything coming up that you all--, you all have a thirty--, thirtieth anniversary fundraiser going on right now?

EF: Yes, we do. You can go to our webpage if you'd like to support.

SC: Thanks so much, Harold and Evelyn. Y'all have a great day.

SC: Thank you for listening. Funding support for LANE is provided by the Andrew W. Mellon foundation. You can find more information about LANE and the amazing organizations involved on the NPN website: www.npnweb.org. This episode was co-edited by Amanda Bankston and Monica Tyran. jazz franklin is our podcast editor, and sound design by muthi reed. (54:46)