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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson Popplestone (00:00.11)
sweet dude. Yeah. So what 13 months ago you were just saying was the time pretty much that we last spoke and you were midway through dealing with the stress fracture. And I remember a standout part of that conversation was just a number of the things that you wanted to take into your next marathon that you saw as room for improvement because what your debut was to 13 a couple of years ago, to 11 to 11 a couple. Yeah, October, October 2022. So
Yeah, technically two years ago, but about 14, 15 years ago. Yeah. All right. So I've thrown, I've thrown two minutes on top of your debut. I'd like to apologize for that, but I'll take a five minute PB. That's all right. I knew it was a, uh, an impressive PB, but mate, one of the things that I remember ending our conversation thinking last time was that I was really keen to pick your brain around the lead up to the next marathon, because I remember there were quite a few things you said that
going back into a marathon round two that you reckon you had room to improve on. One of the things that you spoke about specifically was getting a little more time on legs, on road specifically, and also just looking at doing a little heavier lifting in the gym before going out for your long runs. And I remember thinking, all right, I'll be interested to find out what he does with that. And I'll be interested to see the trajectory of his marathon time. And here we are, what? 13.
13 months later, just run the second fastest Aussie marathon of all time. I'm not gonna guess the seconds, but I mean, 207 was bloody impressive. I can't remember off the top of your head, my head, if you wanna just fill me in on that detail before we get into it, it'd make me look less silly. No, 207.45. Sweet, man. So if you're happy, if you're happy, I thought for the sake of the viewers, one thing that I know everyone's gonna be pumped to hear about is,
Fill us in on this last 13 months. What did build up for marathon round two look like? I've got some real specific questions that I was curious to pick your brain on. So maybe I'll just jump into it. I mean, there's so many points when it comes to marathon or running preparation that you can start at. So I'm sure we'll bounce around a little bit, but essentially in a nutshell, if you had to paint a picture of what the lead up look like and what went better, what went worse.
Tyson Popplestone (02:24.57)
areas that you still think you can improve after marathon number two. Where are you at man? Um, I mean, I guess the funny thing is, is that, you know, I, I was thinking when, when we were getting any message me about doing this podcast, I was trying to think of what I said I was going to try for my next marathon. And, uh, I did, I did try what I said I was going to try and ultimately that kind of ended up in me getting hurt.
I tried to, I think ultimately I'd learned a lot of things from that first marathon in Chicago and instead of trying to tweak maybe one thing at a time, I tried to do a lot at once. And so I spent a lot of time on the roads, spent a lot of time in the gym, lifting heavy. Yeah, essentially it was just too much and my body kept giving out.
You know, I had that stress reaction at the start of January last year, which was more so I think coming, honestly, I think that was more so taking a bit too much time off after the marathon and just letting things get a bit stuck from what they were feeling after that race and then trying to come back. But yeah, I had that and then I had an issue with my quad in late April, I think early
get back into racing after that stress reaction. And then about three weeks out from World Champs where I was meant to run the marathon, I strained my right glute. And essentially what it came down to was I just had to sit down after that, after making the decision to pull out from World Champs just to be like, what am I doing? What's going on that's essentially having me get hurt a number of times because I've never been like that before. I'd had some injuries.
in my past that maybe lasted for a month or so, or kept me out for a month or so, more so. But I was always able to get back and race and like make a season out of it. And I just didn't, I just couldn't do that last year. I just kept getting hurt. And so, yeah, ultimately there was just, we just tried to do too much at once and introduce too many new things. And my body was catching up and you know, the marathon itself was a new event. So, yeah, so.
Tyson Popplestone (04:50.086)
If I was to summarize my buildup for Houston, it was just, um, simplicity and consistency, I would say, you know, like we, we kind of took a step back. I got together all the training I've done over the last four or five years and just kind of looked at key races, key things, seeing what went well, what was consistent throughout it all when I was healthy and running well and tried to apply that as best as I could to, um,
in sort of summary. So then when I went to Alistair and said, look, this is what I think, this is what I think we can do. Um, that's worked for me in the past. How can you help me expand on that sort of thing? Um, and so, yeah, so that was really good. Like he worked really well with me. He was really open to a lot of things and let me sort of take my time getting back into it so that I was healthy and trusted me with a lot of stuff, you know, trusted that going into a couple of
form and whatnot. So that was great. And then my strength coach, Jimmy Raecliffe was fantastic in, you know, building a program around keeping me healthy, keeping me moving, making me more efficient rather than necessarily like, I don't know, there's, I want to say not getting stronger because I think that all gym programs should focus on making you stronger, but just not like, you know, not necessarily muscle strong but
Efficiency strong, if that makes sense. I'm not too sure exactly how to word it, but essentially just keeping everything healthy and repairing while I was doing this training. And so yeah, we really just tried to keep it as simple as we could. Play into my, you know, what's worked for me before and play into my background as a 5k, 10k runner. And yeah, ultimately our main goal is just, just get me to the line, healthy, confident.
and, you know, feeling ready, you know, just getting me back to, back to my old self. And honestly, I did this season was this, you know, these past three races leading into Houston was the first time I'd felt like myself in a very long time. And so, yeah, it was just, yeah, we just went back to basics, expanded on things a little bit. And ultimately, you know, this one went really well. And I think we learned a lot from Chicago that I could apply to this one, but I also walked away from this one, you know,
Tyson Popplestone (07:14.902)
thinking like that went well, but now I have a better idea of what we need to do for Paris to like not to it up again, sort of thing. Um, but yeah, the main lesson being learned is that, you know, I've got a lot of ideas as to how to get better, but I'm not going to be able to do them all at once. So we just got to figure out what, what one or two things we might try and improve on in that, in that block. Yeah, mate, isn't it so funny that regardless of what level you compete at, whether you're a community runner. Like.
majority of the audience who listen to this podcast or an elite runner like yourself, simplicity, consistency seem to be the standout points. I know that goes a lot deeper than it sounds on the surface in terms of knowing, I mean, it's good to focus on simplicity, but a lot of the time it's hard to, I guess, eliminate the excess from your training schedule if you don't know what that excess is. So I know that beyond what you say, it's a lot more of a deep conversation, but that focus is...
It constantly amazes me how many athletes of all levels have a particular focus on simplicity and consistency. And yet a lovely troop man, he coached Jake Riley and a number of other top athletes, obviously a great Aussie marathon runner himself. After Jake Riley ran his big marathon breakthrough, I want to say 210 to qualify for the Olympics a couple of years ago. So many people were asking, Trupy, like, what are you doing? And there was a great thread on, on let's run.
And I think it was based on a tweet that Trupy put out there saying, as there's nothing special about the buildup that we did. Here's exact training program that we did. Here's what we did six weeks out. Here was our key sessions. And on the surface, mate, it was the most simple training program you would ever see. But in terms of the ability to be consistent with the simple training program that they were doing, you had to be bloody strong. And that's where the conversation.
gets interesting because I don't know exactly how many miles he was running a week, but it was a, it was like a two and a half hour Sunday run. There were double runs throughout the week. I think there was two or potentially even three fairly solid style sessions within it. And I remember reading that and going, okay, well, you don't need to bog yourself down in too many details. You just got to do the small things well and build up over time. But like you've touched on a couple of times throughout this conversation, that skill of being able to be consistent is.
Tyson Popplestone (09:38.758)
is one that I think a lot of athletes struggle with for a variety of reasons. And I'm right down the rabbit hole at the moment of I'm listening to the triathlon training Bible because I just heard so much about the first couple of chapters and just that mental attitude towards endurance performance. And it applies beautifully to running training. Joe Friel, who was the author of the book, was just explaining that the biggest killer of an athlete's consistency is their excitement and their impatience. Like you'll go out for a training session.
And yet should know the limit to that training session, whether it's a heart rate zone and effort zone. But too many of us try and, uh, you know, give yourself a little magic pillar, at least a psychological boost and go, okay, well, marathon pace is this. So how about I just push it a little bit more and then make my whole last year was dealing with calf issues, trying to navigate my way around that. And it sounds as though you've been toying with that balance a little bit. And you touched on it briefly. Um,
I spoke about the callousing of your legs that you mentioned in the last one, the gym programs. What else was going on in your training program early last year that was hampering your ability to be consistent? I think I was, I don't know, I think I was maybe trying to get a bit cute with stuff. In coming back, I think I've always been pretty good at taking my time coming back.
you know, into, into training. But I think maybe I tried to make a bit of a jump too quickly into some, you know, maybe 5K, 10K sort of work, rather than, you know, really working on, on my aerobic base and getting that sorted out first. You know, and that was, I don't think that had anything to do with Alistair's approach that was more so. Like I said, I've
These last few races was the first time I felt like myself in a while. And I think there was a lot of, there was a couple of years where. I kind of just lost a bit of a sense of that. And I just wanted to, just wanted to race and I just wanted to race hard sort of thing. And so I kind of lost my way a little bit with navigating my training and, um, you know, I think part of my consistency in previous years was understanding what I was doing and, um,
Tyson Popplestone (12:03.894)
You know, not necessarily, I don't want to say having a say in it, but more so just like being able to comprehend it and go into sessions, understanding what I was trying to do. And I don't think I really tried as hard as I could to do that for a couple of years. And so, um, yeah, I was going in and I thought I knew what I was, you know, I thought I kind of understood what I was doing and whatnot. But then looking back on it now, I was like, didn't really.
I kind of just skipped a big portion of my training. Like I feel like I kick myself a little bit looking back at it, but I'm like, that was something that I've never really let myself do before. Like I've always, always been able to sort of go through the phases of training and focus on the right things. And maybe I was, you know, I think the large part of that is I was very lucky to have someone like Marcus very early on in my career who, you know, educated me fairly well with a lot of things. And now
I'm in a stage in my career where, you know, it's kind of on me to understand what I need to do and for me to, you know, be the teacher to myself a little bit. And so, yeah, so like I said, I think I just got into things when I didn't need to. Like the heavy lifting for me didn't make sense with the running that we were doing. Like, you know, I shouldn't have been partnering big.
Marathon sessions with being heavy lifting, you know, like if you're gonna do heavy lifting You do it when you're doing maybe more, you know shorter mileage when the running is not taken as much out of you. So And vice versa like I was not really lifting much at all and doing a lot of shorter faster stuff and so Things weren't necessarily Evening out there in the sense that things weren't switched on when I was coming to the track
You know, so they were switching on finding their way during those things, which I think is what could have set that quad thing off on me and essentially a whole chain of issues down that left side. So, um, yeah, I think just, I wasn't taking the time to make sense of stuff and to put things in place. And so, um, like I said, when, when that glute issue came around in July, um, you know, I kind of just sat down and thought I got a
Tyson Popplestone (14:27.942)
really figure this out because something's not working. And you want to think at that point that it's one simple thing, one session that might have done it, or you want to blame anything and everything. And then as I kind of took the time to look back over stuff, I was like, I really just kind of got away a bit from who I am as an athlete and haven't really taken the time to... I lost my strength a little bit in my aerobic.
base and so I was like I need to focus on getting that back and then build into the other stuff and that's essentially what we did is we took the time to really build up from the bottom starting in August so that you know come October we were able to start getting into some more marathon, half marathon sort of pace stuff and then November we did some 10k work, December we went back to marathon work.
And essentially that's what put us in the spot there. But that's the sort of thing with the lifting program. We took out necessarily the weights, but we did, you know, maybe a bit more. Um, it was kind of more like speed development and like dynamic light lifting while we were building up that aerobic base. And then we had a couple of weeks during that 10 K work where we did some more, but big focus on dynamic rather than strength lifting. And then went back to strength lifting for the duration. And so.
Yeah, just took the weight out of it and focused on posture and form essentially, which really helped. And so, yeah, it was, I don't know, like I said, there wasn't necessarily one thing that was wrong. It was just we had the pieces of the puzzle. We would just force them into places that they didn't belong. And once we took the time to separate them all, we could kind of get a better idea of how they fit together.
Yeah. It's really interesting to hear you just break down the last couple of years and that feeling of perhaps lacking a sense of clarity on exactly where you were in the plan, because I think the first time, well, I know the first time I ever met you, I'm questioning the year, I want to say it was 2016, 2017 in the cafe in London, I'd been watching you on the European circuit and it was a bit of a breakthrough year for you. I remember, um, just trying to find certain pubs around London when I knew that you or Stewie or...
Tyson Popplestone (16:50.346)
someone was running, but the races that you were running then were very much you were, you were sort of targeting. I mean, there was a couple of 1500s from memory, but I remember you building out some really good three Ks, one in particular, I can't remember where it was, but I mean, fast forward seven years and you know, you've sort of transitioned a little bit from what I can tell from that shorter, faster running, which obviously does have a lot more higher intensity, highest speed intervals involved into.
marathon running, which it sounds like, you know, you're still incorporating some, some much higher speed than marathon pace. But so like from a mental point of view, I feel as though I can understand where that lack of clarity comes from. It's like, okay, well, clearly you were a very high level track athlete and you're slowly sort of making a transition to a very high performing marathon runner. And just that limbo in between, it does sound like a little bit of a difficult head space to be in. And without
absolute clarity on what the target race is. I could see how, you know, if it was me in your shoes, that, that headspace would be a little bit difficult to know how to approach each session. Like from a mental point of view at the moment, have you completely made the move into the marathon or do you still see yourself in the future, going back and racing some, some track races? I see myself going back and racing track, but not so much for the purpose of running track, but as a benefit to my marathon.
I would say. Like I think, it's like you said, I did, I have run well on the track. Like I've run quick times in, you know, if we're being realistic, not so distant at time, you know, 2021 I was running, you know, pretty decent 5Ks and 10Ks and set my 1500 PB in 2021. So, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't that long ago that I was doing that sort of stuff and felt, felt in a really good place with it. And so.
Um, I think I'm, I'm all in on the marathon now more so just because when I looked back at those races that you were talking about, like in 2017, when I was doing a lot of three days, um, I always looked back on that as like, I didn't, I didn't really have the speed. I was more so just running on strength. And, um, cause I was never closing really quick. Like I would be able to close those, you know, some quicker races, maybe in like 57.
Tyson Popplestone (19:17.334)
potentially. But I was never one who was, you know, waiting for a kick. I was always trying to get rid of, get rid of the kick out of people. And so that's what gives me a lot of sort of confidence going into the marathon is knowing that my track background is strength and so if I can carry that same strength over into the marathon, that might be, that might translate into a bit of a kick for me. You know, like a marathon kick can be a
it can be a 10K kick, you know, a 5K, 10K kick, which I feel very confident that that's something I can do. And yeah, I've always, you know, I've always thought that I was going to be a marathon runner. It's just I was never ready to, I can never really wrap my head around it. You know, the concept of racing for two hours, not only running for two hours, but racing. And yeah, I think it was right around maybe New York marathon.
In 2021 after Tokyo, I was watching, who was it? I don't think I was watching the men's race. I think I was watching maybe the women's race and Molly Seidel was running off of a bronze medal. She finished fourth. And I remember thinking that in the US college system, we were very similar runners, you know, like she was a very good track runner, but was a strength based runner, and so I saw that and I thought, you know what, maybe, maybe that is something I can tackle.
you know, maybe the marathon, maybe I'm ready to give my hand to that now. So, yeah, so once I kind of wrapped my head around doing it mentally, then it was a matter of actually kind of doing it. And so I feel like the training was the big mental thing for me, was just trying to figure out how to do it. Because I've typically always been a pretty low mileage guy on the track. Like I've never really exceeded 90 miles a week.
Um, and so that's about what, 140 to 145 K. And, uh, you know, going to the marathon, you hear of all these people doing 180 plus K weeks, which is like, it's a lot, you know, adding, adding 30, 30 to 35 K a week on the, uh, on the regular week, um, is, you know, a pretty daunting sort of thing. So.
Tyson Popplestone (21:44.242)
I was trying to sort of wrap my head around that and figure out how I was going to do that and how I was going to do these, you know, not necessarily the long sessions, but just like get through long runs that were two and a half hours or, you know, regular runs that were instead of doing a 60, 30 double doing 75, 35, 75, 40 sort of thing.
Those are the sorts of things that were daunting to me, like the recovery days or much rather than the actual sessions and whatnot. Um, so yeah, so we, we tried doing all that sort of stuff and, um, you know, we did it leading into Chicago and you know, the race, race went well, but like we talked about last time, I just kind of fell apart in that last 10 K in the sense that my legs, just, my legs just got so heavy and I didn't know what to do with it. And we just thought that, you know,
I just thought that running, you know, I just had to run extra miles and get that, keep that feeling in my legs a bit more. But what we really kind of played into for this one was, you know, kind of putting all those stereotypes away and looking back and being like, all right Pat, if you were someone who was running 140 to 145k a week regularly for 10k, then let's try 160 to 170k.
You know, let's not go too crazy. Let's like bump it up, but like essentially do something that's going to keep you healthy and still be a, still be a step. Um, and we'll just keep the recovery days at that 60, 30 that you've done in the past, you know, so essentially you're able to recover and getting the bigger session sort of thing. And so in doing that, I kind of found that I was able to get more out of myself.
not from a pace standpoint necessarily. We did get more out of myself from a pace standpoint, but more so the important thing we got out of me in the sessions, in these long sessions, was that feeling that I got at the end of Chicago. Like I was able to push myself in a few of them to get to that point and then have to figure out in the last 10 to 20% of the session, how am I gonna work through this? Like how do I keep?
Tyson Popplestone (24:06.906)
moving forward at the same pace or quicker and essentially, you know, manage this feeling in my legs. And so that was kind of the big thing that really helped in this build-up was not putting an emphasis on, you know, kind of the stereotypical things that you would give for a marathon, but more so looking at me and being like, how are we going to make Pat Tien in a marathon? You know, how are we going to get him to do this rather than just putting, you know...
Joe Schmoe out here and being like, let's just do what you'd do with anyone sort of thing. Um, so yeah, so it took a bit of, it took a lot of, you know, a lot of, um, thought and, and sort of a slow process, um, this year, especially to, to figure that out. But I think we, you know, we, we definitely got it right for Houston. And, um, and like I said, now we've got to look at it and be like, all right, how do we improve on that?
or keeping you healthy, keeping like still playing into your strengths as an athlete and make you a better marathoner in the process. And so that's kind of what we're going through now is just trying to do essentially what we did in August, look back at stuff. In August, I went out and visited my strength coach for a week and went over some stuff. And he watched me and saw what stuff. And three days after Houston, I made the same trip out there and saw him again and we went over.
some plans and some, you know, I talked about what I felt in Houston and we put together a little plan to kind of work on those things going forward while also factoring in what the running year is going to look like. So yeah, it's crazy. There's just a lot of planning that goes into it and then the running, once you get the planning out of the way, the running is actually quite simple. It's just making sure that you're putting the right.
pieces in place and keep updating that and keep making sure that you're on top of those sorts of things. Yeah, it's a really good point. It's a really good point. The point you made as well about you as a 10k runner, averaging fairly high miles like 145, 150k a week, but you were saying that as a marathon runner, the idea of running 160 to 175k a week might be a bit of fit. But from the
Tyson Popplestone (26:36.474)
in August or so where it sounds though, or was it July where you'd sort of been a little in and out of injuries. The idea of building up to that point still potentially seems a little bit daunting and has an asterisk next to it in terms of how well you'll handle that coming out of the niggles. So in terms of when you sat down and said, okay, it's August, here's what I'm going to target to actually getting ready for that marathon. Because what's that August, September, October, November, December, five months, you've got about 20 weeks ish.
until marathon race day at that point, what kind of miles were you running per week in August? And what did that actual build up to 170 K a week look like? Um, what was I doing in August? Actually, I can get it up for you now. But, um, it was, I remember I like the actual time I spent at like that 160 to 170 K range was not.
Not a crazy amount of time, but I know we did. There was at least six to eight weeks or seven to nine week block leading into the week before Houston, where I was always above.
Tyson Popplestone (27:57.874)
I lost you there, Patty. 160 to 170 range, because we had a couple of races in there. We got some travel in there. Um, but the days that we did train or the weeks that we did train, we like made sure to keep it so that, you know, like when I traveled, I traveled to Australia and raced out of PEC in early December and traveling over there, you lose a day, you know, like you leave on the, whatever it is, the 12th, you land on the 14th, and then you don't necessarily go out and do a full day of training.
the day after a 24 hour travel. So like essentially if you take out the 13th and the 14th, so let's say that's a Monday, Tuesday, and then you have five days rest of the week, we wouldn't try and squeeze in 160K in those five days. We'd more so make it so that if you divide 160 by seven, and then times that by five, so like if those last five days would have been on track for a 160K week kind of thing.
So that's where like some of the stuff looked a little bit lower but yeah mate, I mean first week of August I ran 11k, next week was 8k and that was while I was just like testing out my um, glute essentially and making sure like everything was like, oh no sorry, I'm reading the last day of the week. That was way off.
Right. So we did like 30, 35 to 40 K. And then the next week would have been about 75, maybe 80 K. And then we just slowly progressed that through August until we got to basically where September I'm running about one 25 K a week. We kept that pretty consistent.
for about three weeks. And then the last week of September bumped it up to, or the second last week of September bumped it up to 135 to 140, kept it there for another three weeks. And then for the three weeks following that, we increased it by sort of five to 10K increments until we got up to that 160 to 170 mark by the end of October.
Tyson Popplestone (30:25.758)
And then, yeah, tried to keep it, like I said, on track for 160 to 170 a week. Um, some weeks were less because of travel days and races and stuff like that. But essentially taking out those days, everything else was on track for, was the same sort of mileage that you'd expect from a 160 to 170 K week. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So the idea was that once you hit that 160 to 170 in
what late October that you're just doing your best to maintain that all the way until pretty much your taper.
Tyson Popplestone (31:02.238)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So we, yeah, kept it all the way there. And then I think it was the last kind of two weeks we started to type and we kept it still fairly decent. Sure. And in terms of how you're feeling throughout 160, 170 K weeks, like, yeah, what signs you're looking out for? Because one of the things that I've been sort of navigating and really
being focused on. Like with the athletes that I coach, I find it so much easier than in myself, because there's naturally a tendency to be a little more emotional about your own training if you're not careful. And I fell into that trap where my issue was that 10 years ago when I was competing at my highest level, sort of same events as you really, 3K, 5K from time to time. I had a certain foundation where I was running at least two sessions a week, doing it consistently. I was more around
probably 120 ish pay a week, give or take a little. And I was doing that relatively consistently, but then boiling 10 years down into a bite size piece, still running a few times a week, fairly relaxed, not a lot of intense running, still going to the gym, not focused on running form or efficiency, just focused on trying to get big pecks for Mrs. Popplestone.
But one of the things that I really struggled with last year was my mindset is, hey Tosh, you're still an athlete, which is true to an extent, but the quality of athlete that I was this time last year was a lot less than what I was in 2014. But I went back out into training going, all right, well, I'm about 100K a week. That's what I used to do. I started at 80. I do a couple of intense sessions and my calves were like, yeah, not a chance. And despite the fact that like I knew mentally that, I think what made it worse as well was
that like my central fitness, like my actual heart, my lungs, I adjusted really quickly. I was getting very quick, very fit, very quick. That muscle memory kicked in, but just biomechanically, my calves, my legs, my body just wasn't ready to absorb that kind of work. And so over time I started to learn some of the telltale signs that, you know, I was about to strain a calf or about to get some form of injury, but it took me 12 months of just making dumb mistakes, partly because I'd never really had to experience many injuries as an athlete.
Tyson Popplestone (33:22.998)
Um, and partly cause I was, I was just in a little bit of a hurry. I was trying to get ready for Melbourne marathon. Um, but for yourself, like obviously the break that you had between running high mileage was a lot less than mine. What are some of the things that you're looking out for to know that, all right. Pat, you're either handling this really well, or it's time to back it off a little bit. It's time for an easier session. Like are you, are you guided by feel or are you guided by data? Um, like you're looking at heart rate and things like that, or where do you sort of fit? Um,
All there's a lot in this question, but essentially what I'm trying to figure out is, yeah, how do you know if you're absorbing the training or if you're throwing too much at yourself too quickly? Yeah, I mean, um, a couple, couple of answers, I guess. The first one is more so when, um, when I, when I did look back at a lot of things, one thing I noticed and I'm lucky enough to have been in a few different systems over the, over my eight years as a, as a professional runner. And one of the things I did notice was that, um,
You know, when I had periods of intensity with training, say it was like a month's worth of intensity, I ran really well in that month. But then week five came and I would start to essentially would take a toll on me. And so from then on, it was like, I'd get up for one session, I'd crash for the next. I'd be up for the next one, crash for the next one. Like I was just, I just started to go up and down and.
The trend I kind of saw in that was that I did always, that wave kind of always followed a period of high intensity where I did just feel great and was hitting everything and flying sort of thing. So this build, we kind of did almost like a preemptive sort of thing where we alternated sessions. So we made sure that if we say our schedule was for the most part Tuesday, Friday, Sunday, Tuesday, Friday sessions, Sunday long run.
And so we would basically alternate. It was almost like a two week cycle where Tuesday session would be heavy. Friday session would be moderate. So like not a recovery session, but just something that was essentially you'd be able to get through. It wouldn't be a strange sort of thing. And then Sunday would be a Sunday long run, a long run session. Sorry. So that'd be like where we'd be doing, you know, a 30 K sort of.
Tyson Popplestone (35:47.194)
effort with some long with some marathon stuff at marathon pace at the end. Um, following Tuesday would be a lighter session, lighter, moderate session to get some turnover, but once again, just something that was very doable, not going to strain me too much. Friday is the following week, a heavy session. And then Sunday would just be a long run for time. So no emphasis on pace, just go out there and get it. And so we're essentially doing a little bit of a way of creating a way of ourselves.
rather than a wave happening from the data, you're like forcing the wave a bit. So we basically did that to almost just kind of just stay safe for this one, I guess, just to make sure I was healthy and just kind of relied on, you know, just my ability as an athlete, I guess, more so in this case. So yeah, so that's kind of the preemptive approach we took.
this time around just to kind of get there, get the qualifier done and be able to move on sort of thing. But something I have been looking into a lot recently and probably since, probably around since June is sleep data. And so that's kind of been something that's been a big help. I think...
You can do a lot of stuff with blood work as well and whatnot, but that often requires going in and getting blood work done pretty consistently or having... Yeah, essentially you have to do blood work pretty consistently to be able to see changes in things and whatnot. And that can get pretty expensive. But no, Angel and I actually picked up some Aurarings in June, which...
you know, they ring you, chuckle your finger, and they basically take a bunch of body metrics for you while you're sleeping and throughout the day and whatnot. And it's been great, you know, like I think we've, I've been able to tell from it, you know, after getting about six months' worth of background data now on myself and kind of seeing what's normal and what's not for me.
Tyson Popplestone (38:09.406)
can kind of tell when I wake up in the morning if something's feeling a little bit off, or if something is feeling a bit off, I can have a look at that and see if there's something that's there. Like for example, I got the, you know, we got our COVID and flu vaccines in October, I think, and I don't know which, like one of them has knocked me around a little bit in the past, and I got that one this time around and didn't really think much of it, and uh...
woke up the next morning and just kind of felt like, didn't feel great, you know, just felt a little like, body's a bit sluggish or got a bit of a headache and things like that, but it's like, oh, maybe I just didn't get enough sleep or something like that. So I was like, I'll take the dog for a walk and see how I'm feeling when I get back. And did that, still felt off. So I was like, oh, let me have a look and see. And sure enough, my body temperature was about, you know,
two degrees Celsius higher than it usually is. Sort of thing, and so that's been kind of cool to use it, not necessarily to see, to dictate when things are going well, but more so just to make sure things are good. Like things aren't off, I guess. And so, you know, there's a bunch of different metrics it gives where it's, you know, it gives you a resting heart rate, it gives the amount of sleep, and you know, whether it was deep sleep, REM sleep, that sort of stuff.
your heart rate variability, which has been an interesting one to look into, as well as body temperature and respiratory rate and things like that. So that's kind of something that we've been using recently to just kind of dictate how we've been recovering and what not. Once again, you can kind of see little trends and patterns with that, but a lot of it you're more so looking for.
normality with it and consistency again over time. So that when little things do pop up, they kind of stand out and you can be like, all right, that's a bit out of the norm. Let's back off for a day and then check it again the next day and if it's back on track, then we can get straight back into what we were doing. So, yeah, so that's kind of what we've been looking at.
Tyson Popplestone (40:35.006)
recently and that's worked pretty well. And that'll be a big one, you know, going into this Olympic, you know, going into the Olympic buildup because, you know, like I said, Houston was a pretty safe buildup in the sense that we just did things a bit safer than previously. And you know, we might want to try and have a couple of weeks or so in the buildup to Paris where we...
We try to extend ourselves a little bit and whatnot. And so I think that'll, that sort of sleep data will definitely be something that'll play a big factor in knowing when is okay to push and when we might need a couple of extra days to back off a bit. Yeah, man, it's wild just how much, even in the last 10 years, at least to the average athlete, how much data has come into the sport.
And I was so resistant to it for whatever reason, and perhaps just cause I couldn't be bothered trying to navigate what it all meant. But I think as I've started to get a bit more involved, I've sort of, I'm not aiming to run any Olympics or anything like I would love to give the 220 marathon time, a little bit of a shake in the next couple of years. Um, but that's kind of the extent of, of my goals in the marathon. But as I've gotten more involved in training and managed to tie a little bit of consistency together.
And sort of just done some digging and having so many great conversations, particularly an episode I did with a bloke called Gordo Byrne or a couple of interviews I've done with him and he's hearing his insights and thoughts on the role that data plays in performance has been really interesting. And I'd kind of, you know, had a bit of a wake up call, but yeah, it's all good to be, you know, Mr. Purity when it comes to sport. But the fact is you probably are leaving a little bit on the table in terms of, uh, you know, performance or at least I like, there's a guy called Owen Everett.
I think it was Owen. He's an Irish guy. Name's spelled different to what it sounds. Owen Everett, uh, exercise physiologist. He's like, mate, it's all good and well to say that you're running by feel. But a lot of the time we're the most dishonest with ourself when we're out there trying to hit a specific session time, he goes, yeah, you'll justify in your head that you'll feel great. You know, but if your heart rate saying that you're working too hard, then, you know, how worth it is it like from time to time, obviously things like that are okay, but making a habit of that. So, um,
Tyson Popplestone (42:54.538)
That's been something that I'm really interested in. I've just started to do a little bit more based on heart rate myself. Are you wearing a heart rate monitor for all of your sessions? None of your sessions, some of your sessions? Coming back into it, I did a lot of heart rate and lactate stuff. So, um, yeah, from about, uh, that end of August, right through till probably mid to late October.
Like when we were just building back that stuff, a lot of stuff we did was based off of heart rate and off of blood lactate measurements, just to essentially, like you were just saying, you know, like just to make sure I'm being honest in that sense, you know, like the truth says, there are some days where you feel great and you'd be like, I could run this for like, you know, you might do a six mile tempo sort of thing in your head. You're like, I could do this for a marathon. So this has got to be tempo. But you're just feeling good.
you probably could crash two miles later. It's just, you're not going to see it coming on. So, um, so yeah, so I was, I was really adamant to just like, especially through the month of September, just to like make sure I was staying true to the effort that I was trying to do in those sessions and not, not overpress it, um, yeah, and some days that meant, you know, one day was a bit warmer. Like, um,
You know, it might've been 20 degree, 20, 25 degree Celsius out and really humid. And I think my progression that day, usually I'd be getting down to around, you know, somewhere between 310 and 320 per K by the end of it at that stage of the year. And I think that day I got maybe 330. You know, I just couldn't, my heart rate was just spiking and my lactate was higher than it was the week before and then three tens at the end just.
because of the change in the weather sort of thing. And so, you know, those are the sort of things where I think that heart rate or those, whatever data metric it is that you're using can really help, especially early on, because I think, like I was mentioning earlier, like at the start of the year, I think I just got back into things too quick. And a lot of that was true in the sense that I was probably just lying to myself as to how I was feeling, you know? And I probably needed to just say, look.
Tyson Popplestone (45:15.126)
just chuck on your heart rate, go back to what you know, like what's gonna help educate you as to how you're feeling and why you're feeling a certain way and whatnot. And yeah, essentially that's all we did. So we did a lot of that stuff. A lot of my training with, all of my training with Marcus at Villanova in the four years I was with him afterwards was based off of that stuff. You know, we do blood lactate tests in most sessions and a lot of stuff with some with heart rate. And then...
You know, we did a bit of that out at Oregon track club when I moved out there, but more so, you know, when we had those big months of intensity, we weren't wearing heart rates, we weren't measuring stuff. It was just like, today's just going to be hard. You know, you can wear your heart rate if you want, but it's going to spike sort of thing. Um, and so I think where I'm at now is trying to sort of, you know, with Marcus, I was always, always healthy and getting to the start line and I did run well. Um,
but I didn't quite get the result I want. I think I've got sort of 90, 5% of the way there and just didn't quite get over that hump to be as competitive as I wanted to be. And then out of OTC, we tried to stretch that and I think we kind of, maybe lost myself a little bit in that first 90. And so yeah, so that's kind of what being here is exciting.
for me about now is that I'm bringing, you know, a lot of that first 90% to the table, presenting it to Alistair, and then we're sort of sitting down and being, or he's coming to me being like, this is how we're going to build off of that and get you to that sort of competitive position and get the results that you want. So yeah, so it's kind of, I've been very fortunate to have a lot of, like all my coaches have used some form of data.
to be able to help get a feel for who I am as an athlete and what I need to do. And so now I'm putting all those together with Alistair and essentially, yeah, using all the resources we have to keep me healthy, but then also being able to know when's the right time to put them away and try and extend that a little bit. Yeah, so it's been fun. It's been fun to kind of like figuring out a healthy balance between those two things. Yeah.
Tyson Popplestone (47:40.246)
In terms of hydration, what are you doing throughout your week? Like this has been a really interesting subject to me as I've gotten more interested in marathon running. And I'm so interested because I've just finished reading a couple of books, running with the Kenyans and Out of Thin Air about the Ethiopian distance runners. And they were both written in around 2011. And one of the standout features even then was that for majority of the training, the main fluid they were taking on was just water.
And these are guys who are absolutely flying like the best in the world at the time. And there wasn't a real sense of focus on specific hydration. Now I know even the last 12 or 13 years, I think it's become far more prominent. I mean, you can see that Kipchoge is pretty loud about the fact he's using Morton's when he's racing. What does the hydration facet look like in your own running? Like throughout the course of your day in and around you running, are you focused just on
Drinking water or have you got a specific supplement or tablet or, you know, fueling gel or whatever it is that you're using to get you ready for whatever session you're getting ready for? Yeah. So for the most part, my wife's pretty good at keeping me on top of my hydration. So we've got these hydro flasks and, you know, I'm making sure that I'm stepping on that pretty regularly. That's just water throughout the day. And, but when I come home from.
You know, after any run, we have those, I think they've been called noon tablets. Essentially like, I don't know what it's called over in Australia, but they're just these little round tablets that you drop them in and they dissolve. And so yeah, I'll usually, you know, when I was, I'll have one of those after each run. So if I'm doubling one after the morning run, one after the evening run, after big sessions. So those Tuesday, Friday, Sundays, I'd...
put two in just a large, I just have two of them in a large amount of water. Um, and then maybe again, one in the evening sort of thing. So they go through a sodium tablet. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, they, they put a little sugar in there for you to make it taste nice, but yeah, for the most part, sodium and electrolytes. Um, and so, yeah, so that's, that's kind of what I'm doing there. Um, we'll have a protein shake after.
Tyson Popplestone (50:03.254)
which is just simple whey protein with some water and actually another, we'll put one of those tablets in there as well, which is kind of nice just to help with a bit of a boost straight after the session. So yes, we've got a lot of electrolytes going through and I think I did well with this build up as far as the hydration went, but we were also training in winter months.
over here and so that's something that you know I've got to talk with, I'm lucky enough to be working with a dietitian at QAS so that's something I'll be talking to her about in the coming weeks is leading into the summer months in the US like what do I need to do I need to up that necessarily or is it more so you know drink a little bit of extra water or is it food intake is it more sort of energy through
carbohydrates and things like that I need to be on top of. So yes, my hydration's been pretty good, but nothing out of the ordinary. I drink the Morton stuff during the marathon, so I am more so very adamant at practicing with that during the longer sessions and during the long runs. And so I think they kind of go hand in hand.
I like having them to get the energy in the sessions, but I also need to do it so that when race day comes, I'm prepared, like my body knows how to handle it, sort of thing, so we try and simulate that with the sessions. So say if we're doing, you know, if we were doing 10 by K sort of thing, then you get in the marathon, you get drinks every 5K. So I would take a bottle during the fifth rep.
and then I'd take a bottle during the 10th rep and just run with it and essentially try and drink. So yeah, so yeah, we do it for, you know, for energy during the sessions and for recovery process afterwards. But my main focus is just so that my body gets so used to it so that on race day, I don't have to worry about how my stomach's gonna handle it. Like it's essentially just another, like I can almost look forward to it.
Tyson Popplestone (52:22.366)
you know, rather than dreading how much I'm going to drink, because I don't know how my body's going to handle it, I can actually break the race down and be like, I'd get to the first 5k, then you get your drinks sort of thing. And then you can hold on to that for a little bit and then get to 10k. So, yeah, so it's definitely a big factor, but I think we've kind of broken it down into a routine where it's not something that I'm having to focus on necessarily. It's just a force of habit at this point, which is...
which is good, you know, that's kind of the goal with a lot of this stuff, but at the same time, like I said, I have to have a chat with the dietitian and see what I need to change or what I need to alter going into the summer months, because yeah, your body's going to react differently in a colder, drier winter than a hot humid summer. So, you know, we'll essentially try to re-establish.
and you have it, I guess, as far as the hydration goes. And hopefully that'll be, I won't have to be thinking about that much come sort of March, April. Yeah. Now in terms of the next few months, just before the Paris Olympics, have you got anything on the schedule before then? Yeah, I want to do World Cross. Yeah, that's a big one for me. I haven't been able to do the last couple because of injury and, you know, that's been a real.
let down for me because I think one of my best results on the world stage was at World Cross back in 2017. So I'd like to get back there and I think that was my last cross country race actually, which sucks. I loved cross country as a kid and in college and stuff like that. So yeah, so that's a big goal for me. I think it'll also benefit me in the preparation for Paris. So I think the course is pretty hilly, pretty tough.
it'd be good to get a tough sort of cross country race and build up in the early months and then before we start to look towards getting some road races in and stuff. So, yes, I definitely will cross, given I'm selected for it, maybe something a couple of weeks before that, just so it's not a complete shock to the system. And then, yeah, we kind of have to sit down and look over what we wanna do, but I wouldn't mind.
Tyson Popplestone (54:46.654)
you know, maybe jumping in a few track races in April and potentially a 10K in early May just to get that, like we're talking about before, play into that track background of mine a little bit and have a few months where maybe we're a bit lower mileage and balance out that gym and track work appropriately before going into what will be probably a 12 to 13 week build for Paris. Awesome, man.
Oh dude, it's so good to be able to get a chance to sit down with you and just hear from you, hear about what went well, what you can improve on. Mate, I'm so pumped to watch over the next few months and as always be cheering for you going into Paris. So we'll have to do perhaps a little post Olympics or if you have time, a pre-Olympics touch in base, cause mate, it's always interesting to hear the ground you're breaking, so congrats. I've got my eyes on Brett's record for you. I'm sure you've got one eye on it as well.
So I'm excited to see you give that a little shake, mate. But thanks for coming on, Paddy. No, no worries, mate. Thanks for having me, Ken.