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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and we are welcoming back my friend, doctor Philip Mamalakis, who's the author of this classic parenting book for Orthodox Christians called Parenting Toward the Orthodox Christian Principles of Child rearing. Doctor. Mamalakis teaches pastoral care at Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, and he's a longtime collaborator with Faith Tree. And most importantly, he is a father of seven children, and he is now a grandfather of two.
Michelle Moujaes:Today, we'll be covering the topic of listening. We want our kids to listen, don't we? Of course, we do. And don't we know better than they do? Of course, we do.
Michelle Moujaes:Aren't they supposed to listen to us? I mean, what is our goal as parents, and how do we get our kids to listen? Philip, tell us all the things. I think it's an important question. How do we get them to listen to us?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Thanks, Michelle, for having me. It's great to be back again. Don't we want our kids to listen?
Michelle Moujaes:Yes.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Just imagine a world where we tell them what to do, and they just do it the first time.
Michelle Moujaes:I think it sounds amazing.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It sound it's like a parent's fantasy.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. It
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:is. Why? Because it would be easy. Yeah. Wouldn't that be easy?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Having our kids listen to us is kind of a short term goal because it does make our life easy. And we can justify it and say we know better or the church says listen. But, really, if we think about our long term goals let's imagine we have a child that always listens to what we say, and then they go off to college. Are they really prepared to make decisions on their own? Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Have they had any experience of thinking about it themselves, making choices, making mistakes, learning from mistakes? Our goal as parents is not the short term goal of getting our kids to listen, but essentially to raise up children who when they leave our home, they understand how to listen to God. Like, they understand it's not just what I want or what I do, but I can follow. We want kids to grow up with the capacity to listen to others. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So we wanna teach listening as a long term goal, which means we can't expect our kids to listen. Oftentimes, when we ask a child to do something or more often tell a child what to do and they don't listen, we react as if that's a problem and that shouldn't happen.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We expect them to already know how to listen. We expect a four year old when we say, alright. Time to come in for dinner. Put your toys on to say, okay. To put down the toys and come into dinner no matter what they're struggling with.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We expect a 14 year old when we say, time to get off tech or time to do your homework to just come in and say, oh, okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Thanks for parenting me, dad. I'm telling
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:you. Right. Exactly. I appreciate that. I appre right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, we expect them to have already mastered something. And then the question is, how good a listener are we as adults? Because if we reflect, it's really hard to listen to our spouse. Mhmm. It's really hard to listen to the church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's listen to heart it's hard to listen to the gospel. It's hard to listen to authorities. We need to learn as parents to expect learning, not mastery, which means if a child if we say something, we should expect not compliance, but learning.
Michelle Moujaes:But
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:learning. Have to think differently about listening rather than expecting or demanding listening. If we wanna raise up kids who learn to listen, we have to think about, alright. How exactly am I teaching them to listen to me? How am I nurturing a culture of listening in the home so that over time, they acquire this disposition of listening to others and listening to God.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. And in fact, listening to their good judgment, listening to their conscience.
Michelle Moujaes:I always think of my sweet husband, Willed. When we first got married, I don't know. I'm, you know, high energy, and he's kind of the calm and steady. And one day I walked in and
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I was like, you won't believe it. This happened and this happened, and I don't know
Michelle Moujaes:what to do. What do you think I should do? And what should you know, I say to this person, and I'm so upset about it, I don't even know. And he said, yeah. Okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's good. I agree with you. And I was like, what? You and I looked and he had looked on his phone.
Michelle Moujaes:He had looked down.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And gbt. How do I reply to my ranting wife?
Michelle Moujaes:What am I gonna
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:do? Just smile.
Michelle Moujaes:I was like, what? Brilliant. Yes. I said, tell me tell me what, is happening. Because I just said, I don't know
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:what to do, and I'm so upset.
Michelle Moujaes:And you said, I agree. Are you not listening? He goes, okay. I'm not listening. Like, I thought, sorry.
Michelle Moujaes:Sorry. So now in his in his, to his credit, he is so intentional to try and just like block and listen to everything because he knows it's gonna be much shorter. We're honest. Talk about easy. If he gets all in, but he's really trained himself to become a great listener.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You could see listening is is a discipline. Something we
Michelle Moujaes:It is a discipline. We have
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:to learn.
Michelle Moujaes:You know? Sorry. One more thing to add to this. The most supportive people, the ones I'm drawn to the most when I really have a need or wanna work something out are those people who without judgment you know, they're gonna tell me what's what if I'm wrong, but they give that space for me to be heard. And I think our kids do look for the same to us.
Michelle Moujaes:Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Exactly.
Michelle Moujaes:They wanna have the place where they can go to just get it
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:out. We have a whole elective at Holy Cross just on listening. No way. Because it's such a critical part of pastoral care.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And most people don't understand the power and the the asceticism, how hard it is. The most common call I get from parents is my kids are not listening to me. How do I get them to listen? Mhmm. And the first answer I always have is do you listen to them?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Mhmm. Because the the primary tool we have to teach our children how to listen is actually to model listening. Because if we're always in our world as parents, you know, barking out orders, giving direction, what are we modeling? That that doesn't nurture a culture of listening in the home. And this beautiful podcast, these podcasts have really been challenged parents to stop just doing that and start reflecting on what's happening to my child.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So the first step in nurturing a culture of listening in the home is by listening to our children.
Michelle Moujaes:Define good listening for me. What does that look like? Because the kind of listening that sometimes I do is like, oh, yeah. No. That's so good.
Michelle Moujaes:Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Michelle Moujaes:Yep. Yep. And inside, I'm going, oh my gosh. Can we just let's do it. Come on.
Michelle Moujaes:Move along. So what's good listening look like?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You identified the second thing. Listening takes patience.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because that actually might be good listening what you're doing. You are trying your best to pay attention even though it's really hard. Okay. I'm not gonna say you get an a, but you probably get an a for effort.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Good.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Okay. Good. To recognize that sometimes it's easy to listen, sometimes it's really hard. But with listening is, listening is about just receiving what they have to say without reacting. Asking our child what's going on.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Letting our child speak and not saying anything. Ignoring the misbehavior, all the corrections we wanna do, and just hearing what they're saying, and then not saying anything. Right. We don't really need to tell them what we think all the time. We really don't need to correct them all the time.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We don't really need to give them these answers. Because oftentimes as parents, if our children actually speak to us, we feel the need to give them the answer. Well, here's what's really going. Here's what
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, for sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we can barely wait till they finish because we wanna give them the answer.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. 100%.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And what that does is that undermines their own thinking through process.
Michelle Moujaes:Great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So one strategy I recommend is before you wanna give your child a direction or a thought or an answer, force yourself to say, what do you think? What and this relates to parenting older kids, parenting college age and young adults. Because it's not like we stop this impulse to tell them how to live their lives just when they move out of the home.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. No. That's
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:we visit them or they come home, we just have this impulse that I wanna tell you exactly all the right things to do. And we think that that's helpful because we know all the right things to do or at least what we do.
Michelle Moujaes:We think we do. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But imagine if you're 22. And if you remember when you were 22, you have intelligence, you've got a mind, you've got good judgment. It's growing.
Michelle Moujaes:And you're in the situation.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And it's your experience.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then you go home, and you're constantly being told what to do. Right. That's not that's not an environment that we're drawn to. That's not it doesn't feel like love. It certainly doesn't feel like respect.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. Like, if you're gonna tell me as a parent what to think, what to believe, and what to do, it essentially sends the message, I don't respect the fact that you have judgment. You can see for yourself, and you can think for yourself.
Michelle Moujaes:Fair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so it communicates a lack of respect. So we can make a rule before I'm gonna correct a child, I'm gonna connect with them, check-in.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:When a child doesn't listen to us, we can say, what's going on? When a child shares something with us, we can practice. Before we tell someone what to do, we ask them what they think. Even when a young adult asks us or tells us, here's what happened to me and here's what I did. Instead of saying, oh, here's what you should have done, you could ask, well, how did that go?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. What do you think about what you did? And then they'll think about it, and they'll say, well, I think it was okay. And then we say nothing because this is a learning process. So we model listening.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The other powerful way we model listening besides listening to a child is they're watching how we relate to our spouse. Mhmm. They're listening to how we relate to the priest and what the church says. They're listening to how we respond to what the police say. They're watching.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Are we listening to public officials? Are we following laws?
Michelle Moujaes:That's important.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Are we listening to our spouse?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, even if you think about the way we talk about clergy, politicians, you know
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:we don't have to listen to that.
Michelle Moujaes:Church enforcement.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. Church invites us now to go to church or to fast. Oh, we don't have to listen to
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm we're free, but we're modeling
Michelle Moujaes:That's interesting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Lack of listening.
Michelle Moujaes:That is interesting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So in a home, typically, when a mom will tell me, you know, I tell everyone it's time to come in or it's time to clean up, and no one listens. And I asked them, how does the husband respond? So imagine if where I'm sitting in the living room, we're all hanging out, and Georgia comes in and says, listen. It's bedtime. We gotta clean up and go to bed.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, as a husband, what do I do? So I'll tell you what happened in my house when we had these kids at home. All my boys would look at me. Georgia would say, listen. We gotta go to bed, and this place has to be cleaned up.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And all three boys would look right at me. And I knew what they were doing. They were watching to see, do we have to listen to mom? Because the husband models listening to the mom by the way he listens right away. And the wife models listening to the husband by what she does when he says, I think this is a bad idea.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And the mom says, well, if dad doesn't think it's a good idea, then we're not gonna do it. Just imagine watching that, oh, listening is what everyone does. So in my home, my three boys would look over to me, and I knew what was happening. They were gonna see, do they have to listen to mom? And so I would look over at Georgia with a little mischievous smile because I knew and she would be furious because she knew whatever Philip decides they're gonna do.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:They're
Michelle Moujaes:gonna follow.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And she doesn't think it's very funny when I joke about it, but I realize I'm modeling for them. You know what the hardest thing is? Getting up the first time.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I don't wanna get up either. Mm-mm. It's hard to listen to your husband. I want my way. I don't really care if he thinks it's okay or not.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think it's right. So we're actually teaching our children.
Michelle Moujaes:That's great. I I think that modeling in all of the circumstances of life. That makes perfect sense
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:to nurturing a culture of listening in the home. Yeah. But it's really hard to in marriage to, oh, I know I'm right, and I think he's wrong. Oh, what do I do? And our kids are watching.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. So it really makes no sense to say my kids don't listen to me when it comes from a mom who listens to nobody.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Or a dad who doesn't listen to anybody.
Michelle Moujaes:That makes sense. I also think when we listen I mean, I've always felt good ministry looks like listening. That's good ministry, but it makes sense in our relationships. And part of that is actually being present and hearing. Because so often, especially now, we're always working through our retort.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, whatever it is that we're gonna respond or we're gonna say back or we're gonna, you know, like, oh, I have another story to tell you. Right? We've gotten a little bit lazy in actually being present in that space and taking in what the person's trying to communicate. But I think it's actually it's a form of love.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It is a powerful expression of the fullness of love. Yeah. Listening is a type of self offering. I'm gonna put aside all my distracted thoughts. I'm gonna put aside the list of things I have to do today.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Mhmm. I'm just gonna attend. That's hard. That's hard work, but you're offering yourself. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we see this as a witness of love. And, you know, it's modeled after how Christ loved. God didn't solve the problem of death from up in heaven and give us a solution. He drew near. He comes close, and he takes on our suffering.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Ministry is about drawing close to someone, and listening is about just receiving their suffering. Not to do anything with it, just to be with them. So suddenly, it creates a real tension in us. It's hard to listen to someone Mhmm. Who's really struggling or really sad, grief and loss.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's hard to one of the hardest things for parents is if I ask my child why they're sad and they say, I'm sad because of this. I didn't wanna go. It puts a pressure on us Mhmm. Because there's nothing we can do. You can't fix it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And if we think parenting is about solving problems, makes it really hard
Michelle Moujaes:Sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Just to draw close and sit with them and say, that is hard.
Michelle Moujaes:It's like the diamond dogs. Did you ever watch Ted Lasso? Oh, yeah. Yeah? The diamond dogs.
Michelle Moujaes:Half the time, they'd be like, wait. So this is just about getting together and just talking? We don't actually solve anything? Yeah. Pretty much.
Michelle Moujaes:Sometimes.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And so what I tell people is you know what you solve. You solve the problem of someone suffering alone.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, that's good, Philip. Wait. Say that again.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Problem. You can't solve the problem of whatever they're dealing with, but you can solve the problem that they're suffering alone.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And kids, we don't need to make kids' lives easy. There are gonna be difficulties. Adversity actually is how we grow, but they suffer or they're actually traumatized when they go through it alone. So if the child is bullied or a child is struggling at home or a child goes through, you know, a broken home experience or there's grief and loss, You know, when they have adults, when children have adults who can draw close and walk with them, they actually grow through it. And we can't solve any of these things except we can solve the problem of them suffering alone.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that so much. Tell me this. We have a lot of moms, mostly moms and dads, but moms who have asked this sort of question. What if there's not enough to attend to all the people in my life? So you have a lot of people that have multiple kids or they have parents that they, you know, take care of and jobs and husbands and they kind of self empty if you were.
Michelle Moujaes:How do we help those people who like I always tell my kids, okay, everybody gets a turn, but today is not your day. Like, check it later on that one. How do you how do you spread yourself where you can be there for the you know, there's a lot of people.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There are strategies. Mhmm. But the first thing is to understand what my role is. Okay. And some people say, you're supposed to be a river, not a lake.
Michelle Moujaes:Let me think about that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:A river, not a lake. Collects water. A river just passes by. So when you're listening to someone, you don't wanna be a lake and just hold all their stuff. You wanna be able to be a river.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And just as they're speaking, you're listening and you're attentive, but then it just goes by. It's not really for me to hold on to. Right. So sometimes we need to learn that, that if you're having a hard day, I don't have to have a hard day. I can learn how to be peaceful next to you and listen carefully and attentively all about your hard day and just be attentive, and I'm gonna be a river.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So when I leave, I'm gonna go on. Like, I genuinely hear you, and I generally, you know, care, but I don't need to take on your misery.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so easy for us to do as parents.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Exactly. And so the first step is learning. What do my kids need? To take on all their problems? No.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To walk with them alongside them. And the second thing to learn, I think, is I'm not trying to be a good listener. I'm not trying to be a great dad because that's really about myself.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The goal is to be responsive to the people in front of you. So when I came home to seven kids, that's a lot of kids.
Michelle Moujaes:So many.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What can I possibly do? I can just be responsive. Whenever a kid would interact with me, just responsive in that moment. The better I get at not fixing or solving, I can just be present, hear their struggle. You know, we think about it and connect.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Just connect. Just connect. Just connect. And so I am constantly being present. Once we learn that my role is just to be present and responsive, then even when I'm not available, I can be present like that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I said, like you said, today is not your day, but tomorrow, I'll see you tomorrow. And they're gonna struggle, and I'm gonna be present with that. Mhmm. Because my goal is not to fill everyone as much as they want. I can't do that.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But I can be present
Michelle Moujaes:That's fair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:As much as I am, and then they know. So when I am home, I'm a 100% home. Great. Right? Because the problem with parents is that our kids don't need us a 100% of the time all the time.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Sometimes they need us a 100%. But other times, like when we're cooking with them, they need 25% of us. Sometimes it's just 10%. Right? So in the week, we try and have one time where I am a 100% present to each kid.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But for the rest of the time, it's 10%, 20%, I'm doing stuff, but I'm connecting with them. Like, I'll see them, but I have to go. Right? So if we're just attentive to being responsive, it allows us to constantly be present. And then if they're sad, I miss you, dad.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I haven't seen you. I can say, tell me about it, and we can go from there. So it's kind of a shift in focus about how to listen and then what my role is. Mhmm. But there are other ways.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There are other steps to teaching listening in the home. Because remember, we still wanna teach our children listening.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We know it's for long term, and we know modeling is the most effective, but there's other strategies to specifically teach them how to listen. And the the next one I wanna identify is my children do not listen to my words. That's just a fact. Yeah. I'm a trained professional, but they don't listen to my words.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What they do listen to is my actions. So if I wanna teach them to listen to my words, I need to follow-up my words with action. So the more often and the more consistently I say something and then I take action, the more the sooner they will learn how to listen to my words.
Michelle Moujaes:So give me an example of
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:what that The will joke is my boys don't listen to my words. They listen to my footsteps. So if I say, it's time to pick up your toys and come in and they don't do something, I go right the next time. I said, when dad says it's time to pick up the toys, it's time to pick up the toys. And I pick up the toys with him, and I escort them.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Or I can say, if I have to say it again, I'm then gonna come and pick up the toys, or I'm then gonna come and take you. Right? Because what happens is we'll we'll say, come in and pick up your toys and come in. Pick up your toys and come in. We'll say it four, five, six times.
Michelle Moujaes:500.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. Because we think we're patient, and we think that's Christian patience. But I wanna clarify, patience is not enduring misbehavior. What patience is is learning a good response and allowing time for them to learn. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because imagine, you say it five or six times, and then what happens? Well, we scream. And then we go over there. Right? And the
Michelle Moujaes:kid learns. Mean it now. Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Got it. And so now the next day, they're playing again, and we say, come in.
Michelle Moujaes:Give him a few minutes before he gets mad.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And the kid thinks, I've got five more times before mom is really serious. You essentially train your child
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To wait till number five. And how? Because that's when we took action. The hardest part of parenting is it requires us as much as we can to take action.
Michelle Moujaes:Get out of your chair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Get out of your chair. You gotta get up off the couch. And it's hard, but it's an investment. So it's really hard because as a parent, oh, yeah. It's easy to be in the kitchen.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You're doing a million things to bark orders. Alright? It's much harder to stop and go get them. The other thing we do is when we we're constantly framing things in the context of listening. Like, when if they don't listen the first time, I will go over, and I will say, in this house, we listen the first time.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We're constantly talking listening. Mhmm. So when they do listen, we say, good job. First time listening. We're naming this.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:When mom says something, we come the first time. We establish that as a norm that we're working towards. Right? And dad is doing a first time listening to mom. Mom is doing a first time listening to dad.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Great. Parents are listening to their kids, and it's sort of like a house rule. In this house, we listen the first time. So we're not mad when they don't do it, but we're kinda strict about it.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Like
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:mystery. Just be how to be strict without getting mad.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. I like that. It really does honor both the connection and the desired behavior and kind of the the established expectation in the house. Because I think sometimes we can get caught with just saying, well, that didn't work.
Michelle Moujaes:So I guess they can do their thing.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:But that's not very helpful.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's so hard. And you're at home.
Michelle Moujaes:Doesn't bless
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:them. And you're like, fine. I'll ignore it, and it's hard. And we if we slack at home, then when when we are in public at a restaurant or at church and we say something, they completely ignore us.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so good.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because the home is the practice field.
Michelle Moujaes:Slack at home.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. You know how they say you play like you practice. And so what I force myself to do, and it's really hard, is I wanna be strict if I say it one time because then I'm in public, and I'm like, you need to come here right now. And I'm thinking to myself, there is nothing I can do if they don't listen to me. I'm in a restaurant.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What do you cost me to do? They're at the other end of the table. I can't reach them. I'm in church. It's in the middle of the gospel.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I I like, I can't do any. I'm in a car. Right. Outside of the home, we don't have the capacity to take action.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And it's hard, but in the home is where we wanna gently try. Be careful barking a lot of orders
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That you can't follow-up with action.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so we create this culture in the home, and that's is that gonna get compliance? No. In the short term, it's not gonna get compliance. In the long term, kids will start learning that, oh, it's a peaceful home when people don't listen to each other. Because now we're gonna teach siblings listen to each other.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:When your sister says, do not touch my desk. When your brother says, that is my special toy. Do not touch it. We listen to each other's words.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that prepares them to use their voice and to respect other people's voices. That's our long term strategy Yeah. No. Of listening.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Let's look a little bit at some of the questions we've received from our audience. Oh, this one comes from Summer who is a grandmother. How can grandparents engage their children in meaningful connection when they live a full day's travel away from one another? Are there any practical and even spiritual recommendations that you have?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Great question. I'm a grandparent. I live a thousand miles away from my grandchildren. Number one, it's painful. Number two, I try as much as we can to have physical contact as much as I can to go and visit.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:When we think about it, we can't we might not always have the luxury, but we look for any opportunity to be physically present. Either they are coming to us or we are coming to them, and part of that is the reflecting about is it possible to live close. That needs to be part of our response, is nothing replaces physical contact. But there are some other things that are uniquely to to grandparents, like, number one, praying for our grandchildren. That it is our vocation now.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because as parents, parents are scattered. They're overwhelmed. Let's say not all of us parents are like master prayer people because we got a million things going on. Mhmm. Grandparenting, you know, it's like parenting light.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, sometimes we we don't have as many responsibilities, and you can be more intentional about praying and about teaching your grandchild to pray. Nice. So when you do go visit, you give them a little prayer book. Right? And if they're if they're connected to the church, a little liturgy book that's for for children.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You do morning prayers with them. You do bedtime prayers. You make yourself available so that they associate your visit with prayer, and that kind of keeps you connected when you're not with them.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Let me ask you this question. I I was blessed with both a mother and a mother-in-law who were good listeners, who are good listeners. Thank god. How can grandparents help ease the burden of the day to day parent?
Michelle Moujaes:Because it is a lift and we're all in this culture trying to figure it out. What can they do to be really great listeners for their adult children? Or even if they're not grandparents, if they're just parents with young adult children, how can they best serve those people that they love by being great listeners?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So when we think about our kids growing up
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Once we can't tell them what to do, we're forced to use better strategies of teaching. And one of those better strategies is really being present and silent. And I know with my older children, the less I speak, the more they like to have me around. And that is that asceticism of listening. And I think about a third thing for the grandmother with how to be connected to grandchildren is when you're there, not to do a lot of speaking Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But to do a lot of listening, or sometimes it's called child led play. Let the child direct the play. So I'm just on the ground. Do you want me to cook this? Do you want me to be the chef?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Do you want me to you know, that type of responsiveness is a beautiful part of being a grandparent because I think we don't have the same pressures as the parents, and we don't sometimes schedules in this crazy busy.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. I actually love the to take the child led idea a little bit further. I think when you love people and you wanna listen well, really taking the lead for the need of the person in front of you. So for example, I think of some of my single friends or if I think of parents that have a child with disability or even just adult children like this guy Jim Burns, wrote a book called Doing Life With Your Adult Children. And it's a wonderful resource, but one of the things he talks about is if you are not asked for your advice, even if you think it's wisdom, it's going to be taken as criticism.
Michelle Moujaes:Just be there. Listen. Don't necessarily come forward and offer all the things. Just follow the lead of. And I think there's great wisdom in that because then you can respond as opposed to, you know, I like to bring in all my good ideas.
Michelle Moujaes:You know, if you just do it this way, it'd be so much easier.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And consider if Not helpful. Well, it's disrespectful because it communicates, I don't think you're smart enough to figure this out. You need my good idea. But it's really an act of respect because silence communicates, I trust you, and I trust your good judgment. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I like to say, even if your kid asks you, what do you think, dad? And they're older. I think the best answer is, what are you thinking? Yeah. And how is that working for you?
Michelle Moujaes:It's so countercultural to do that. We really have to work to train ourselves that way, though.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But isn't that how you and I learn? Mhmm. We learn by having some someone to help us think through, not for someone giving us the answer.
Michelle Moujaes:That's actually great. That's really great. What do what do you think for single parents or for those people who do kind of have different situations with just different circumstances? How do they approach not only listening, but getting a tribe of people to listen to them?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, when I think about what all of us need from the community, from the church, and particularly when it's particularly difficult, you know, when we're going when our families go through particularly hard times with a death or a divorce or single parenting or special needs or even the birth of a child.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:These are just peer these are periods and these are circumstances that are still sacred and still beautiful, but just extra difficult. Mhmm. Right? Because it's hard to work all day as a single parent and then come home and that you're the only one on dinner duty, and you're the only one on cleanup, and the only one on bedtime, and now you've gotta listen. We are here as a community.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We wanna be communities that welcome them, that support them, and that listen to
Michelle Moujaes:them. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Imagine if we could just listen to whatever a single parent is struggling with. What do they need? Just a place where they can say this is really hard rather than, well, it's your own fault, or you shouldn't have this, or I'm glad this isn't you know, all this negative that's that's not love. And and, really, parenting through divorce, Some of the most beautiful parents I have worked with are the ones who have had to go through divorce because they really have to put their own opinions aside and focus on doing what's best for the children
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And to deal with how to love my child who's gonna go to another home. That is hard. Hard. And they do they they I have seen the most beautiful parents because they learn I am here to do what's best for my kid.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So we can actually learn a lot from these beautiful families that are going through these struggles if we have the capacity, the courage, and the love to welcome everyone and actually listen to their stories and listen to their struggles without fixing, but solving the problem that we don't want to have them struggle alone. We can struggle with them.
Michelle Moujaes:It's my favorite part. I'm just gonna end our time here today by asking this one question. Is there a way that directly listening to others can actually be helpful muscle build for us to listen to God? Like, take me from here to there. How does that work?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's great. Because the goal of teaching our kids to listen is to nurture an obedience to God, a disposition of following what God says. Because what if I asked you, did you listen to the gospel on Sunday? Well, what does that mean? Well, I heard it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To listen, the Greek word for listen has the same root as to obey. Like, we're not called just to hear the gospel on Sunday. We're called to listen and to obey. And what makes obeying God difficult, it's hard. I got my own desires.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I got my own will. I wanna do things my way. Mhmm. That gets in the way of us following God. And consider, God is giving us the path to fullness of life.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:As we learn to listen to each other, in order to learn to listen to each other, we have to learn to give up what I want. We have to do the hard work of giving up what I think. Like, we learn to just it's not my will. I'm just gonna hear your perspective. And that is that prepares us.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That changes our heart toward God. The better we are able to hear other people's perspectives peacefully without reacting, it opens our hearts up to hear God and to follow him. And it makes sense because Christ says, you know, how can you love a God you can't see when you can't love the person next to you? Right. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And remember the two greatest commandments that we see loving God and loving neighbor are intimately related. So we will say, absolutely. How can you say you listen to God when you can't even listen to the person next to you?
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because we react. We've got our opinions. We have no room for the other person. Once we push out the other person, we are pushing out God. And the reverse, as we learn to peacefully struggle to just hear them, it opens our hearts to hear God.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so good. Thank you. Great having these conversations.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's great to be here.
Michelle Moujaes:It's so fun to be with you. And thanks to you for joining us for this episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting. We are here to help you raise children who know Christ and who love him and who, God willing, spend their lives trying to be like him. And hey. Listen.
Michelle Moujaes:If this episode blessed you, would you consider doing us a favor? Leave a review or share it with a friend, and here's why. When you do that, it helps more families just like yours find the show. Okay. Last thing.
Michelle Moujaes:If you wanna go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes or at faithtree.org/parenting. The guide is just a free gift for you and your family, and it's a really great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we talked about today. And you can share it with your spouse, your friends, or your community at church. Check it out, and God willing, we will see you next time.