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Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
New episodes delivered every Tuesday.
Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey, everyone, today I'm joined by Thomas Sterling. Thomas is the founder of sterling brand works, which is a creative agency specializing in bold experiential campaigns. His agency breakup kit campaign earned some industry awards and opened doors to billion dollar brands using a mix of humor, direct mail and high production video content. So I wanted to have Thomas on because agency owners constantly battle cold outreach fatigue, and he has built a campaign that actually cuts through. In this episode, we discuss creating ABM campaigns that get remembered using humor without losing credibility, scaling creative outreach beyond word of mouth and more lead gen is the hardest part of running an agency. For most it's unpredictable, it's slow and it's usually expensive. Jia flips that. It's the all in one growth platform that turns your existing relationships and client work into a steady pipeline. GIA automates lead gen follow up and content, and it's all from the work you're already doing, you can check it out and get some free bonuses at get gia.ai/dynamic agency, and now Thomas Sterling, it's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is agency forward. Thomas, you guys had a pretty successful campaign with this breakup kit. I think a lot of agencies would would love to hear anything that could drive them, potential awareness, business, anything like that. Let's kick off there. Tell me about this campaign.
Thomas Stirling 1:47
Yeah, well, Chris First, thanks for having me on the show. Happy to be here the campaign we're talking about today. Really, the core insight is it's hard for agencies like Sterling, like any agency, to make it into that aspirational brand fortune, 100 the billion dollar brand, even some mid markets, it's challenging, right cold, outreach is really hard. And on the flip side, if you put yourself in the shoes of your audience, the life of a CMO right now, is hard. Agency. Relationships, in some cases, are strained. Teams are trying to build things capacity in house. And so the core insight is, there's a ton of relationship here, right? It's a relationship game. And so how do you do a cold outreach when you haven't had a chance to build even a hello. And that's what came from the idea of the agency breakup kit campaign. We actually said, All right, well, if there is this sort of sticky, squishy relationship between brands and agencies, and in some cases, it's working great, okay, well, we're probably not going to get in there. But sometimes it's not sometimes it's dysfunctional. Sometimes it's like your friend that's in an, maybe not an abusive relationship, but a relationship where you're like, hey, you should probably get out of that one. And so I think humor is a really powerful tool. It resonates. But what we landed and I know some of people are just listening, but Chris, if you want to what does this look like? Maybe a size 17 sneaker box. Yeah. So we came up with this direct mail campaign that was also supported with video production, Account Based Marketing. We picked aspirational accounts a top 100 list, and we actually mailed this size 17 sneaker box, basically with everything you need to break up with your sad and underperforming agency or sad and underperforming website. So again, depending on who the audience was, it has a QR code. It directs to a landing page. And there's all this content, even like breakup scripts. So like you picture Words with Friends, or like any, any, any of those card games, Cards Against Humanity, you flip the card over, and there's something you can say lines to break up with your agency. And so we really, we said, All right, if we're going to do this, if we're going to go out there to try to reach more mid market and billion dollar brands, we need something that is that first hello and that's going to make them want to actually return a phone call or reach out. And we're not sure which touch point in this omni channel world that we live. So for some it was the direct mail experience and then physically opening it. And by the way, the kid has things like an old copy of the VHS copy of You've Got Mail because it's the original tear jerker, right? So internet tear jerker, so it was just the campaign is absurd. It lives in an absurdity, but it lives in a world where someone's in a bad relationship with their agency partner, and so anything in marketing is right time, right message. The success of this campaign has been, I. Think a tremendous awareness and brand builder, and then we have actually gotten into some really nice enterprise accounts. But again, because it was right time, they were in this just cultural relationship, they felt the reality of the campaign. And so, I think, for all of those reasons that, like, was a little bit out of the box and in the box, but it's, it's been really tremendous for us.
Chris DuBois 5:25
Yeah, I think what's great about it too, is like, so it's initially helped you with some people who are in market, looking for another agency and already considering that breakup, but also, like, it's a full box, right, full of stuff, yeah? Like, it's going to leave an impression on someone. Regardless, we did
Thomas Stirling 5:41
scale when we did scale the box down when it was really make
Chris DuBois 5:46
it a little easier for the postman. But like, even, even the people who aren't in market are now, of course, we got a fluffy throat today. Even the people who aren't in market, are like, are going to remember this? And so when they do start thinking about, like, leaving their current agency, like they're like, Oh yeah, remember that breakup box we got? Right? They have something that you can anchor to go back to, and then they're gonna look you up. And as long as you got all those assets, like pointing them to the digital thing to be able to find you, it's a great resource.
Thomas Stirling 6:20
Yeah, and we went really high production. So I mean the like 15 second, 32nd commercials content on our website, a full micro site, we're working on another campaign like this for the agency. And I think the core insights always like, all right, but how do we go big enough that this is actually like a PR moment, and not just something that might create a little bit of buzz, but not necessarily jump off the page for folks.
Chris DuBois 6:50
Yeah, one of my favorite books of late has been the experience economy and the idea of like. We're moving away from we move from data to like trust. Now we're moving into it's like, if you can create experiences, it's awesome. Actually, I just, I even got a an email from can't remember what they changed the name to like science says, I'll put a link somewhere. But the free experiences are seen as like more valuable than free products, like free trials and stuff, giving things out to people. And so, like, anytime you can create this an experience, right? Even if it is just like someone opening a box and seeing what's in there and having a laugh, like it is something that they're going to talk about, and like, a memory has been created through this, right? Remember the time that agency sent us that box and stuff like, it's, I don't know it has like an oomph to it that's super valuable. So I guess even as you're looking into this next campaign, and so what things are you looking at doing like, experientially? To my assumption is that you're wanting to outperform your previous campaign. That's generally how people are wired. Like, what types of things are you thinking about doing within that? Well, I think that
Thomas Stirling 8:03
this breakup kid campaign is going to continue to be our brand promise and a little bit of a brand Halo for Sterling, because if we flip it on its head, it's also our commitment and our brand promise to brands that work with us and partner with us that we're not going to do any of the things that we're it's a it's a super fine line. We're not here to make fun of other agencies. We're not here to take business from other agencies. But we are here to take business when there's a dysfunction, when things aren't working anymore, anymore, or where there's a mixed mismatch. And so you have to be like, super careful. Like, we've won some agency awards for this work. And I think it's because it's that like tightrope walk, if it was too out there, and if we were really pointing a finger at other agencies and we were kind of putting them down, I think that would be problematic, and also inversely, if we think about this brand Halo, it's our commitment, it's our brand promise around what we're going to do to make sure we treat you know, every first date and every long term relationship you know, with what's necessary. So with that said, How do I consider like, what's next? We're working on creating an adjacent campaign where we're creating a little bit of a universe. I don't want to go too far and share anything until it launches yet. But just for the life of the CMO, the life of a CMO, average cmo lasts, what, 18 to 24 months, and then they're on to their next thing. That's our target audience. That's who we want to work with. We're creating a campaign around like the life of the CMO. How we make the life of the CMO better, how we address and call out what it's like today. So I know that's very high level when the campaign launches, Chris, I'll share it with you. But again, it's just creating more affinity, more trust and more awareness in in our target audiences mind share. Or for Sterling, right?
Chris DuBois 10:02
I think there is something important how you're approaching that too, where it's like, you're not going to you're not going to date a guy's wife, but like, if the divorce attorneys are already there, okay? But like, that's a key differentiator, right? Because, like, you could still be partnering with some of these agencies and stuff and building up your business that way. But if they're not getting along, it's like the best thing is for us to come in and help everybody. But so I guess, as you're looking at these campaigns, what is something you're thinking about? In order to make these like fun, I get right like to just get someone to smile when they see it.
Thomas Stirling 10:39
Well, I think humor is something that can come across as a really great first impression for somebody. I think you know, you were just mentioning a stat, right? There's data that supports that. Humor actually creates a stronger affinity, and it lasts longer. I always like to say, like, if you're doing work, does it pass the sleep test? Do you wake up the next day and you're still thinking about it? If we're presenting a few concepts to a client, which one the next day are they thinking about? Which one are they still grappling with? And sometimes it's not their first choice, sometimes it's their second or third choice, but then they realize, Wow, this idea really has staying power. Humor is a tool in that. But humor can also be if it comes across as cheap, if it comes across as not thoughtfully delivered, or if it doesn't push off of a real, true insight. So I guess, to answer your question, if you're going to use humor, you really have to start with that core insight about like, what's going on in your audience's mind, and how do you utilize and play off of that? And so humor, when successful, incredibly powerful. But if it's just jokes for eyeballs and impressions, you know, is that going to really do a business driver? This campaign's been successful for us because it feels like it really cuts through the noise. I don't think a ton of agencies do a lot of really out of the box advertising, a lot of and what we've done historically has been like, pay per click and adds on meta and all sorts of other things that maybe sometimes are playing it safer and talking about a product or service offering. So there's, there's white space for creativity and things like that, for for campaigns, for clients that use humor. Again, it's that tightrope walk to make sure that it's really pushing off something that is pain. If we can find a way to flip something on its head, then I think that's really where the best marketing and advertising comes from.
Chris DuBois 12:40
It's also a great opportunity just to like, it shows your personality, right? Your character. Like, there it's giving all of these people who've received the box now have some insights into what it would be like to work with you. They're seeing some creativity. How you think, like, they're enjoying that humor. Yeah, I think it's like a multi fold solution when you were what brought on, like, so you said you were running, like, PPC campaigns, different things like that, but like, what? What kind of inspired the, hey, we need to do something now that's different, yeah? Well, I
Thomas Stirling 13:13
think, you know, I know you do some work with agencies, and a lot of agencies sort of struggle with, it's like, word of mouth, right? And it's growth in in that sort of an organic fashion, right? And so I think every agency, in some ways, has to grapple with how much is coming organically and how much is coming through your marketing efforts. Sometimes we're the cobblers with the holes in our shoes, and it's like we do great marketing and great advertising and brand building over here. But what about for us? We had some very successful campaigns, but if we really thought about dialing into that like enterprise or billion dollar brand, that was not an area where that audience engages in the same way. And so if we wanted to take our successes and replicate it in that market and really double down in Account Based Marketing, we thought we really have to do something that's unique and different here, and that was what what happened. So I think it really all depends on who your audience is, but I think when Account Based Marketing is is part of it, you can be so much more nuanced in terms of what's delivered. You could put a hand written note in here. You can put something very specific about what you want to do. And I know lots of agencies try all sorts of different things, but that personalization, I think, is a huge, huge, huge benefit that you can do when you're very specific about what that audience is, top 100 for instance. I mean, you can really spend the year kicking your tires on okay, how do we want to reach this pocket? All right, let's fly to outreach, to just this top 25 and it doesn't mean that you're not still maybe running. You're always on digital outreach or your traditional ads, or your product and service. I think both are there. But just like anything for a client, if you have that like brand. Promise out there. From a advertising perspective, it makes those other digital ads that you're running that maybe are a little more transactional work harder, whether it's retargeting for your site or it's other things that you're running to promote what you're doing out there. Yeah.
Chris DuBois 15:18
Out of curiosity for the numbers, how many packages did you send?
Thomas Stirling 15:23
We're probably you're putting me on the spot here, but I would say probably over 150
Thomas Stirling 15:31
and yeah, probably over 150 probably about 75 of the big kits before we switched into the breakup kitties. We still send both out. We send the huge boxes to the larger brands or ones we feel like we have a personal in with, just because it's so outrageously large. But I will tell you, from the data that we have, we have not seen any difference in engagement whether we send the big one versus the little one. That was another test we wanted to say, which is, like, can we scale it down? The smaller kid has, like, a cassette tape in it? Again, nobody has a cassette player that's sitting at their desk. So there's a little bit of a novelty there. Someone's showing someone else in marketing, like, Hey, have you ever, you ever watched something on VHS. Have you ever played with the cassette? So there's, there's some fun there. You said, like creating that moment. There's some, some depth there. But, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a, it's been a decent amount of volume, but then obviously, we've had, you know, 1000s and hundreds of 1000s of impressions on the ads on site. So some folks have just seen the videos, have just seen the landing page, have just seen some of the digital components. Some people have seen the digital and been like in the comments, you got to mail me one of these kits. You know, some of those are not necessarily ideal audience. Some of those are just tigers. But, you know, engagement, we like engagement at all forms of certain percent of that's going to convert.
Chris DuBois 17:01
So, right? So with the, I guess what, what like, sample size is the right word. Like, what was your initial send before you're like, Okay, this is something we need to, like, go all in on
Thomas Stirling 17:16
the first flight was 2525 boxes, which I would say is probably a little bit low. If I was advising somebody else, I would say, you start, start with 50. But we did, within that first 25 like, No, we were on to something. But again, a lot of what we were on to in that first flight was, this is the most creative thing that we've seen, this is crazy. I don't have any needs now, but wow, this is really cool. Now, if you can get that aspirational audience to just return a message, you got to consider that a success. Then you start to say, Okay, well, what? What are we what are we modeling here? Do we need to bring the brand size down, or do we want to do something more specialized, I know right now we're in the process of, like a final stage, final round pitch with a brand that we sent a kit to over a year ago so they didn't have anything. Then they thought of us when it was RFP time, and then they included us in the in the process. So it's, it's, it's not a it's a longer game than a quick convert again, because, like you said before, it's, it's all about when the timing of that message is, but if you can create enough of that moment with them, a badass first impression, and they can have some staying power. Yeah.
Chris DuBois 18:40
Do you ever run similar, like ABM type campaigns for clients? Like, maybe not running the ad piece, but doing this type of creative we do.
Thomas Stirling 18:48
We one of the more recent ones that we're running right now. It's a, it's a SaaS company. So, like, it's software as a service. It's in the cloud. Like, what's the, what's the physical component to that? What would you even mail? So we actually designed this box. It looks like it was made in Cupertino by Apple, but it has just says helping hands on it. You see these, like digital hands. It looks it looks like robot hands. And we were like, All right, well, if we're going to mail them something, what can we do? That actually makes it interesting. So the box is, like, hollowed out. There's a sheet of wood in the back. So it actually feels like, when you get it bailed to you, there's something here. There's a lot in here we are, like, what is it? It says the product name on the cover. When you flip it open, all that's there is a QR code. So you're actually sending them, like, almost nothing, and like priming them to say, well, this is really odd. I'm super curious to know more. That's also been really, really successful, and I think we have, like for a portfolio of clients, a lot of different Account Based Marketing stuff that we've done that's usually always a blend of mail. That direct mail component and a digital component. Because, again, you don't know if mailing them the box, if it's just going to sit on their desk, but it's going to sit on their desk for a little while, then they see an ad for that product a little later, they're going to make, you know, make a connection, and you're going to increase the likelihood of engagement. And again, for some of these brands, there's some SDR, that's maybe doing some cold calling, cold outreach to sort of blend that so it's the digital marketing plus the sales enablement to kind of tie it all together, right?
Chris DuBois 20:31
It's a, yeah, you're doing a multi channel hit, right? You're not just relying on one thing. It's that time of year, you know, it is that right now. What are the like the mistake, if you were recommending that someone does take, like an ABM play like this, where they're sending an actual package and not, you know, to someone, what are some of those mistakes that they would likely make, that you could easily just, hey, don't do this.
Thomas Stirling 21:01
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is keep the message really simple. When you're building a campaign off of an insight, sometimes it's easy to think of, like, five or six or a few different ways you want to do it, or get really excited about, oh, well, it could work for this, this, this and this. If you have, like, refined your message, and you've refined your audience, and you still have a few key verticals that you're in. Maybe it only works in one. Maybe you just really focus on one so that when you send your first flight or you start your campaign, you're going to get the clearest picture of how it works and resonates. On the flip side of that. Maybe you want to go broader. Maybe you want to do a few markets, because you want to see, you know, seasonality can have an impact in a market, right? So maybe you need to do that. But I think get clear on your test and get laser focused on what that message is around a problem that you solve or something associated with it. I think otherwise it can get to became muddy the waters, I would say, also make the investment. I think the reason that this has worked for us is that every touch feels incredibly premium, the production of the videos, the boxes themselves, all of those things. Each of those are an interaction with your brand. And so you want those to just feel super dialed in. And so again, sometimes these tests, you're rushed. You want to see value. I think the last thing would be make sure, once you invest in it, that you're going to see it through, just like for our clients, just for the agencies listening their clients, we wouldn't advise a client to turn on a digital campaign. And then two months in, they're like, Oh, I didn't see anything. I think we should shut it off. You're like, No, you got to go the distance here. Maybe that's three months. Maybe that's six months. So like, give a thought to what your commitment is and how far you're going to go and what your success criteria is. Because sometimes what was your success criteria early on, it changes. You're like, oh, no, I was actually expecting more from this. So you just need to be very specific with regards to that. It's the same thing that we would tell our clients, right? It's just it's sometimes hard being the client. You're so used to setting the guardrails and structure things, and in this case, you're the client, and it's your dollars, right? And so but I think those are really important, because sometimes, just like anything, right, the optimizations and the adjustments come later down the road. And so if you don't see success right away, that doesn't mean that it's not just right around the corner, right?
Chris DuBois 23:35
How far out are you planning, like the follow up sequence with these two like, are you giving them a couple weeks before reaching out, and then you're hitting them up and, you know, with emails, calls, yeah
Thomas Stirling 23:47
for the for the breakup campaign, and the direct mail, if I'm if we're thinking about that, and the experience of, like, when the box is first arriving through to the last touch, you Remember the movie The Matrix? Remember when Neo gets the package and he, like, rips it open and the phone starts ringing right away? I mean, that's the ideal scenario, right? You like, know when UPS has arrived with the package and you're calling right away? Doesn't always happen like that, right? That would be best case. But no, you usually try to get a couple touches the first week, and then the full length of outreach usually lasts three to five weeks, depending on, you know, kind of what's going on there. I like to think of like, five touches to seven touches. The actual number of touches, from like, a data perspective, is absurdly higher than what most people, I think, typically think you start to get into the territory of like, I think we're being annoying here. I think we've reached out too much. And so I would, I would challenge anyone on my team, or I would challenge anyone listening that it's like, All right, well, stop thinking about it like you're being annoying and make sure that each of these touches adds value. So we have thought about for each touch. Is there a secondary video? Though, is there a resource that we send? Is there something else so that it's not just like, we're like, hey you up, hey, you up. Hey, you want to talk. I think that that can get annoying, and I think that that can chip away at the brand building that you're actually really trying to do. Again, that's another tightrope, where you're showing them what it's like for you to work with them and a little bit of proactiveness and follow through is good. Being Annoying isn't and they're not going to feel great about having you do their marketing or communications or brand building if it feels like that's what you're like on the on the other end, or what you might be recommending that.
Chris DuBois 25:39
I've got a short story that you probably couldn't have set up a better segue for. I was on someone's podcast. They asked for my address to send me a gift, and so, like, sent that over, and then they kept hitting me up with a just asking, hey, the package arrived like you excited for it. It finally came in small box, and it was a matrix themed like there was a blue pill, red pill in there with QR code, both the blue pill and red pill. First, this was a little concerning. They were both like they were chocolates, little balls. One was wrapped in red foil, one in blue foil, but they were both, like, a little open. So it's like, okay, well, let's toss those. But I did watch the video, which was incredibly cheesy and like that may have landed, I guess, for some people, but it was like founder of the company dressed as Morpheus, talking like, how do you want to do this? Oh, geez, but, but the amount of follow up they got me where they were almost like playing up that this box was more important in my life than than it ever even could be. I mean, this was for, like, video marketing services, and it was a it. I think at some point I did actually block the emails because, like, even when I say, Hey guys, I'm not interested, it's not good. They just kept coming. And so, like, there is probably a point of where it is some, you know, borderline harassment. They probably hit that, but I didn't need a restraining order, blocking work the but, like, I think the it was also, like, the quality of the box didn't like, if it had been a if it felt more premium, more professional, yeah, I might have actually just gone with it more so, like, see what it was, but it felt not fully thought through. And it was just like, Oh, here's like, a quirky thing we can do to, like, get in front of you.
Thomas Stirling 27:25
Well, it sounds like it's a little bit cheap, and the sense of exactly production wasn't all the way there, or maybe they overdid it on the joke, you know, like, again, if you're going to use humor, that's not like a cheat code, it's it's hard to get good humor. I mean, we had a comedy director on set when we did this, and really worked with the actors to, like, show the right dynamic range. Because I think if you saw, like, the first, the first few scenes that we shot, if you tried to cut that together and add some music and via it just, it just would have felt kind of flat. So there's just, comedy is not easy. If it's done well, you love it, and it can do a lot, and there's a reason that you don't see more humor used in B to B, right? Yeah.
Chris DuBois 28:15
It is definitely, definitely hard to to be funny. So all right, Thomas, as we wind down here, I got two more questions for you, with the first one being, what book do you recommend every agency owner should read?
Thomas Stirling 28:32
So are you familiar with meditations by Marcus Aurelius? Aurelius, yeah. Is that one that you hear very often
Chris DuBois 28:41
not for agency.
Thomas Stirling 28:44
So I think that there are too many business books out there. There's books about like, grow or die, and there's just this ever changing expectation of all these systems you can use and things you can tackle. For me in the reading collection, I think sometimes it's mindfulness and perspective. And I think a book like that reminds us that even on our hardest days, when maybe it's a little challenging to get out of bed or put one foot in front of the other, I'm a new dad. I got a one year old, and last night he probably woke us up three or four times, right? So sometimes that next day, you're like, Oh man, I gotta get back in. I got to do these five things. And whether it's sales or business development or running the company, sometimes you just need a little bit of extra gas in the tank. And I think that's a great book, just to provide perspective that sometimes the challenges we experience today, if we were to zoom out, there's all this content online, they're like the problem you have today, 100 years from now, isn't a problem at all, because you're gone and you're in the ground and, you know, so I, I think it's a great book for that. I think that be curious to hear what other books to share. Maybe that's a conversation for another day.
Chris DuBois 29:54
Chris, yeah, there's, I mean, a whole slew of them. I think what I like about meditations is. Like, especially as an agency owner, you're, you're often the constraint of the business. And if you're just like, you can't be level headed during certain times, right? You're emotionally driven in certain decision making, things like that. It's like, you need something to be able to, like, ground yourself and be able to, you know, have that stoic, I guess, philosophy, to be able to drive your business forward. So it is great that, like books for recommendations, I guess, for agency owners can be all over the place. Oh, yeah, like, it doesn't just have to be about the business side. And so yeah, that's a perfect example. Last question for you, though, where can people find you?
Thomas Stirling 30:38
So I have a podcast called brand to brand for the agency. My agency is sterling brand works. If you want to check out our work, we're based just north of Boston, and outside of that, I mean, I'm a consummate networker and Brand Builder, and you can find me on LinkedIn.
Chris DuBois 30:58
Awesome. All right, Thomas, thanks for joining Awesome.
Thomas Stirling 31:01
Thanks so much for having me, Chris. Have a great day. All right,
Chris DuBois 31:07
that's the show everyone. You can leave a rating and review or you can do something that benefits. You click the link in the show notes to subscribe to HNC forward on substack, you'll get weekly content resources and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward. You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai