Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

How to have more open conversations about money.

Talking about money is taboo for many people. But according to Wendy De La Rosa, financial well-being only starts when we break the silence around finance.
De La Rosa is a professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and a co-founder of the Common Cents Lab, an initiative aiming to increase financial well-being for low- to moderate-income people. For many, she says, shame keeps us silent about money. “Shame is paralyzing, and more than any other negative emotion, [it] leads us to ignore,” she says. But when it comes to financial well-being, ignoring our finances is the last thing we should do. Instead, De La Rosa advocates for open discussion. “Talk about finances,” she says. “How did you ask for a raise? What are you getting paid right now? These are important conversations that help everybody.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, De La Rosa and host Matt Abrahams explore how to have more open, productive conversations about finances. Whether you're a manager thinking about employee financial wellness or trying to broach a difficult topic with a partner or friend, De La Rosa offers practical strategies for breaking through the taboo around money.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (03:04) - The Fresh Start Effect
  • (05:27) - Pay Timing Shapes Behavior
  • (06:43) - Productivity and Financial Stress
  • (09:09) - Framing Financial Choices
  • (11:42) - Understanding Financial Shame
  • (14:12) - Rebuilding Your Financial Environment
  • (15:37) - Giving Financial Advice With Care
  • (18:09) - Normalizing Money Talk
  • (19:13) - The Final Three Question
  • (26:19) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Wendy De La Rosa
Professor | Co-creator and Host of TED Series | Board Member | Forbes Honoree

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: One of the most
challenging conversations we

can have is about finances.

My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I look forward to
speaking with Wendy De La Rosa.

Wendy is a professor at the
Wharton School at the University

of Pennsylvania, and she's the
co-founder of the Common Cents Lab.

That's Cents, C-E-N-T-S.

Her research focuses on understanding
and changing consumer financial behavior.

She studies how small changes in
a person's financial environment

can have a large impact on their
spending and saving habits.

Well, Wendy, I am super excited
to have this conversation.

Thanks for being here.

Wendy De La Rosa: Happy to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

Should we get started?

Let's do it.

In your work on financial decision
making, you've spent some time

working on the fresh start effect.

Can you share what that is and
how we can actually leverage

that in our own motivation?

Wendy De La Rosa: That's
such a great question.

I wanna give credit where credit is due.

So the Fresh Start Effect is identified
by Katie Milkman, one of my amazing

colleagues here, who leads our
initiative Behavior Change for Good.

And in her work, she sort of identifies
the fact that everybody wants to change.

We wanna be better humans, we wanna
be better parents, better spouses,

et cetera, better with our money.

But the how and the when is always
a little bit hard, bridging that

gap between intention and action.

And so one of the key findings
in behavioral research

is that we need to time.

our interventions really well so that your
motivation to act is activated and peaked.

And so we know from research that
the number one time when people

download financial management apps
on at the app store, for example, is

December 31st and January 1st, right?

New Year, new me.

But it Fresh Start effect
doesn't just have to start there.

We can think about our birthdays,
we can think about new seasons.

The beginning of every month,
the beginning of every week.

One of the experiments that I conducted
with a company called Silver Nest,

we used this idea to do something
that I think was really unique.

So Silver Nest is this company that
tries to connect older adults with

each other to try to solve a problem.

One housing is so expensive now in
the United States, but two, we have a

loneliness epidemic and we know one of
the biggest predictors of our long-term

health, even our longevity, is the
number of daily meaningful interactions

we have with another human being.

And so they try to pair up older adults.

As you can imagine,
that's a hard ask, right?

Let me invite somebody that
I don't know into my home.

So we ran a couple of experiments on
their marketing, mostly on Facebook ads

to say, Hey, you are 64, turning 65.

Have you thought about a change?

Or you're 49 turning 50, or your 53
turning 54, have you thought about a

change versus you're getting older?

Have you thought about a change?

It's not a surprise.

People know their age.

It's not new information, but it's
a cue to say there's a meaningful

change happening, maybe I should
reexamine how I'm living my life.

And we saw that it led to higher
click-through rates on the ads.

It led to more activity on the website.

And so we were really excited about that.

Matt Abrahams: This idea of finding
signals that can help move people from

intention to action is really important.

And it can be a particular date,
it can be some other significant

event that just helps us refocus.

And it sounds like it leads to not only
more focus, but actually more action

Wendy De La Rosa: For me, I
think timing is everything, not

just in relationships, right?

We have that old saying, timing is
everything, but timing is everything

when it comes to behavior change.

It was one of the core sort of findings
in my dissertation that even the

timing of how we receive our money.

So if you receive your paycheck every
week, versus every two weeks, versus

every month, that fundamentally changes
how much money you think you have.

So higher payment frequencies, right?

When we have shorter time intervals
between when we get paychecks, it makes us

feel a little bit richer, and so therefore
we're more likely to spend on the margins.

So it paradoxically can undermine
our financial wellbeing.

Holding constant the objective
level of income, right?

So we're both earning whatever
it is, 50,000, 100,000, 150,000.

But just by changing the timing
of it, all of a sudden our

relationship with money changes.

And we have so many examples of
showing the importance of timing

as this underexplored, but really
important aspect that we should

all be thinking about in our lives.

Matt Abrahams: So if I'm a manager
running an organization, how could

I leverage your insights into timing
to perhaps motivate my employees more

help with efficiency and productivity.

Any ideas on that?

Wendy De La Rosa: Well, I think there's
two key recommendations I would have.

The first one is we know that
productivity is fundamentally

tied to financial wellbeing.

So if your employees are
financially stressed.

They can't show up with their
full self at work, their brain

activity, their attention is gonna
be focused on something else.

And so as a manager, I always say,
look, you know that when your employees

are sick, you give them a sick day.

When they need vacation, when they
need to rest, to avoid burnout, right?

We have vacation days.

I suggest giving everybody
a financial health day.

Because everybody, again, going
back to this intention action

gap, we all know that we should
go back and revisit our retirement

allocation and increase that, right?

We all know that we should
finally get around to opening up

a 529 account for our children.

We all know that we should probably
create a will and all of these things

that people know they should do.

The critical piece is time.

So if you create a norm in your
organization, create a financial health

day to say Everybody on this date.

We are all gonna try to get
our collective act together.

Take the time to finally call
your credit card company and

ask for a lower interest rate.

Take the time to finally cancel that
old subscription that you know you

should have canceled 20 years ago,
or whatever the case may be, because

it's not just something good to do.

Research has shown it Increases
the productivity of your worker.

So that's tip number one.

Matt Abrahams: I like that idea, and
you've just motivated me to go change

some subscriptions I have, so thank you.

Wendy De La Rosa: You know, I always
tell people, put it in your calendar.

Love yourself enough to
prioritize you today.

But the second piece is to really
fundamentally think about the

timing of when you're asking your
employees to make financial decisions.

For example, we ask our employees
to make critical financial decisions

in the first week of employment.

Like what's your retirement allocation
going to be in the first week

that you've just hired somebody?

They're probably trying to have multiple
calls with it to figure out what their

login and username and password's going
to be to remember whether or not your name

is, you know, dig Joe or Harry, right?

There's so many things that are
happening in that first week of

employment, like it's just not set
up in a way that's sustainable.

So I think that's one, like create
space for employees to go back and

actively encourage employees to go back
to really think about that decision

if you don't already automate it.

Matt Abrahams: I think
you're dead on, right?

When we ask people early on in their
careers to make all these fundamental

decisions that they're just trying
to get, which end is up, figured out.

I felt the same way when my wife
and I got engaged, there were all

these questions about what do you
want for your gifts, et cetera.

And had I had a year into the
marriage, I would've changed

everything about what I was asking for.

And so the idea that we can help
our employees by having them make

these decisions that are long term a
little later, once they have a more

appreciation, I think is a great idea.

You studied the power of
framing on financial choices.

Uh, can you give a specific example of
how a leader or manager's communication

framing of, let's say a budget cut
or some new financial policy, can

either trigger a scarcity mindset or
inspire a problem solving mindset?

How come the words we use in the way we
position it influence how people see it?

Wendy De La Rosa: That's a great question.

I, along with

Stephanie Tully and Eesha
Sharma have looked at this

Wendy De La Rosa: concept
called psychological ownership,

which is like people's feelings
about things, places, ideas.

Do I feel like I own
Stanford, a piece of Stanford?

Do I feel like Stanford is mine?

I think about my own laptop.

I even say this is my laptop.

Even though the ownership of
it is actually the University

of Pennsylvania's laptop.

It's really important to think about
what is the psychological ownership

that your employees feel over the
organization, because if this is my

organization, clearly I'm going to care
much more about that organization and go

outta my way to make sure it succeeds.

Versus if the framing and the
communication is all about you are

just on loan here, you are not going
to get the same level of investment,

motivation, attention from people who
just recognize that this is not something

that, this is not a dream that I own.

I don't own a piece of it.

I'm not invited to even
dream about a future here.

And so when negative things occur,
if you involve people in the process.

And are transparent and treat
people with dignity so that they

can feel psychological ownership.

I think that's really important.

Suzanne Chu at Cornell has done some
work looking at if you increase the sense

of psychological ownership of citizens
over public lands, people are much

more likely to take care of that land.

So this is one of the psychological
constructs that goes beyond just

ownership of, a thing, right?

We can think about ownership
of places, ideas, membership,

institutions, organizations,
and oftentimes we ignore that.

And so I encourage any leader listening
to this check yourself, right?

I'm from the Bronx, so
just check yourself.

What are the words that you're using
to describe your own organization?

Matt Abrahams: I'm gonna go
home and try this with my kids.

Talk a lot about your room, your
cleanliness, and see if I can get

them to pick up the stuff around.

But this idea of it's how you can
connect people to their work and to

what they do, and then that changes
the relationship they have and the

care and concern they put forward.

You discuss the concept
of financial shame.

What is this and how can we talk
about money more openly with

friends and family to overcome this
barrier so we can actually have

more honest, open conversations?

Wendy De La Rosa: Yeah, shame is one
of these negative emotions that's

paralyzing in many ways, and I think
we have, and I'll talk about this

more in sort of the US context.

We have thought about financial wellbeing
as this individual pursuit, right?

If I am financially successful, by
and large, we make dispositional

attributions basically.

It's because of your work ethic,
it's because of your intelligence.

All of these internal factors
versus external factors, right?

We tend to downplay luck, our
communities, our support systems,

our mentors, our all of these things.

And so when people find themselves in
a place where they are not financially

secure, where they feel like they're
doing everything they can, and yet they're

struggling because we've created this
narrative about financial wellbeing being

this individualistic pursuit, then who
is to blame other than myself, only me.

And so that vicious cycle creates
this shame where, how can I even

talk about this openly because me
talking about this openly is only

going to lead to me recognizing my own
personal feelings over and over again.

And shame more so than any other negative
feeling emotions leads us to ignore.

And in financial wellbeing, that's
the worst thing you could do, right?

Not doing anything is the
worst thing you could do.

So what I like to tell people is let's
breathe and try to melt the financial

shame away because we have to recognize
that every company out there is getting

faster, smarter, more efficient.

Of course, we haven't even talked
about AI in this conversation at

getting you to part with your money.

It's not even a David versus Goliath
metaphor, if you like that metaphor, it's

a David versus thousands of Goliaths.

And so once you've recognize that the
environment is not necessarily set up

for you to succeed, then we can have a
little bit more empathy with ourselves

and then recreate our environment.

And that's the critical piece, right?

We can't just sit in the current
environment and expect things to change.

Let's figure out how we can do our
best to recreate our environment.

Matt Abrahams: What are some things
people can do to recreate that

environment so they feel a sense of
agency rather than being the victims

of not doing what they should be doing?

Wendy De La Rosa: That's a great point.

So first I tell people, you
know your financial situation

better than anybody else.

You know your vices and your virtues.

Take the financial health day, as we
talked about earlier, to get a handle

on your vice and what does that mean?

For some people, it's I recognize
that I can say no to that new jacket

one time, but when it follows me
throughout my entire online journey,

day in and day out, I may not have the
willpower to say no the hundredth time.

And so how do we recreate our
environment and install ad blockers

throughout your entire financial life.

The convenience of a DoorDash or an
Instacart or Uber Eats is just so high.

And so I tell people either make the
decision to remove that app from your

phone or link it to a prepaid card
where you're installing an instilling

a mandatory limit on yourself.

And then the third piece
is timing matters so much.

So I sound like a broken record
now, but it just, it is so critical.

Take a look at when you receive your
pay and take a look at when your bills

come in, and if there's a fundamental
mismatch there because you get paid on

the first and your big credit card bill
is not due until the 17th, then now you're

allowing opportunities for overspending.

Call the credit card company
and change your payment date so

it aligns with your pay days.

Matt Abrahams: It sounds like you're
talking about automating some things

that keep you on that path, and also
looking at all the automations that

already exist and challenging some of
them so that you can not necessarily

fall victim to some of that work.

As somebody who might want to give
advice or to help someone who is

perhaps not in as much control of
their finances as they'd like to be.

Do you have advice and guidance on
how to give that kind of feedback in

a way that doesn't feel threatening
and can truly be heard and helpful?

Wendy De La Rosa: I'd like to
frame it from the concept of love.

Like when we see somebody
that we love with a broken

arm, we don't just ignore it.

We don't just turn our head and
pretend and hold their other hand.

That's not what we do.

We try to address it.

We encourage them to go see
the doctor for whatever reason.

We don't do that with financial wellbeing.

And finances, I like to say are the
hidden person at the dinner table.

If you know you have a friend that's
going through a major life change, whether

that's a new child, getting married, going
to college, moving across the country for

a new job, getting divorced, going through
a cancer treatment, everything that's

meaningful in our lives sadly also come
by and large with some financial change.

And so to ignore that
is actually not loving.

And so the first thing I would say
is approach it from a place of love.

I really care about you.

I love you.

Help me understand what's
going on and how can we help?

And help doesn't have to be
always lending or giving money.

Help can be, helping someone walk
through a situation or connecting

them to the appropriate resources
or just providing time and support.

There's all of these
ways that we can help.

And the second thing I'll say is
that there are troubling statistics

showing that people are much more
likely to talk with their friends

about their political ideology.

They're past dating history and sexual
escapades and all of these things, but

for whatever reason, money is still taboo.

So much so that engaged couples, like
40% of engaged couples, have not shared.

Their income with one another.

Like you are about to say, I'm
ready to go through life with you,

but I don't you, you don't wanna
share your financial picture.

There's something fundamentally broken
there, and this is maybe a little cliche,

but if you're gonna spend life with
someone, have the financial conversation,

make it a date, get a bottle of wine,
put it on the calendar and say, let's

be vulnerable together, because what
else is love is, if not vulnerability.

Matt Abrahams: Framing it as love and
as a gift of concern for somebody,

I think is a great way of doing it,
rather than, I have something that

you don't have and let me help you.

I really like the idea of
turn it into an event, make it

something that isn't a labor.

It's something that actually
can be fun, if you will, just

to have this kind of connection

Wendy De La Rosa: And change
the norms around the discussion.

One of the things that my girlfriends and
I used to do is we used to have monthly

brunches just to talk about finances.

So how did you ask for a raise?

What are you getting paid right now?

These are all important conversations
that aren't had and that help everybody.

But it's odd to have that conversation,
so you have to create a norm.

Hey, we're gonna be transparent with
each other about this because we care

and we're gonna lift each other up.

And so yeah, let's do
it over boozy brunch.

Matt Abrahams: I think that's great.

I have found in my life with lots
of topics that are taboo that just

initiating the conversation opens up
the opportunity for others to share,

and I love this idea of let's make
it fun, or let's connect and let's

show how we're supporting each other.

Wendy, this has been a
fantastic conversation.

Before we end, I like to ask
three questions of all my guests.

One I create just for you, and
two are similar across everyone.

Are you up for that?

Wendy De La Rosa: I am.

Matt Abrahams: So, Wendy,
you've done a lot of really

interesting in-depth research.

I'm curious, what has surprised you
most in the work that you've done?

Wendy De La Rosa: I think the core
finding has sort of always stuck with me.

Is that we always tend to
think about income as this

unidimensional construct, right?

It's all about, I earn 50,000 and
you earn 70,000, or I earn a hundred

thousand and you earn 200,000.

And that's actually just one
dimension of income, which is level.

The thing that has surprised me the most
is how much we can change and alter and

influence consumer behavior by altering
the other dimensions of income, like the

frequency, like the income volatility
of income, like the source, whether

it's coming as a bonus or as a salary.

All of these things that we didn't really
get into in our conversation really matter

and frame how people think about that
money and fundamentally spend that money.

Matt Abrahams: That idea of
widening the aperture to look

beyond income as just one unitary
thing can really make a difference.

Thank you for sharing that.

Question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire and why?

Wendy De La Rosa: Oh, so many.

I will say Adam Grant has just
been such a powerful force.

I was his student his second year when he
joined Wharton, and I think he has like

such an amazing way of connecting with
people by sharing his own vulnerabilities.

And so I like to emulate a lot
of my teaching based on him.

He's been highly influential
in my life and I'm so lucky.

But I think the most direct and
most influential communicator

in my life has been my mother.

She is the queen and master of
Caribbean idioms that just cut deep

in a way that no one else can, right?

I was sharing recently and I just
find myself now repeating her idioms.

Learn to love those who love you.

And that was, Those are just words
from my mother or, there's a lid

for every pot, or like all of these
things that have so much wisdom.

Matt Abrahams: I was just gonna say
wisdom in common vernacular sayings.

Wendy De La Rosa: Yes, in
a way that is so succinct.

It doesn't waste any words.

She is a great orater, but it's
her ability to just pull on these

idioms that make her so amazing

Matt Abrahams: And how they hit a chord.

They strike a chord.

And if your mother is like my mother,
they come at just the right time.

Wendy De La Rosa: Oh yeah.

Sometimes when you don't want
them to, but you need them.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

And they reverberate for a while
and you really see how they hit.

Final question, what are the first
three ingredients that go into a

successful communication recipe?

Wendy De La Rosa: So the first
I would say is curiosity.

You can't actually engage in
a conversation without being

curious about the other person.

If not, then you're just
engaging in a soliloquy.

The second would be humility to
understand that what you're hearing is

not necessarily what the person is saying.

There's so much loss in hearing.

And then I think the third.

Clarity.

So in order to be an effective
communicator, you need to be clear

in your own wants and your own
needs and in your own message, and

so much gets lost in vagueness.

I think people keep saying
clarity is kindness.

I think that's so true.

Matt Abrahams: Curiosity,
humility, and clarity.

A wonderful recipe.

The point about curiosity is the bridge
to connection, humility, to realize that

we bring a lot to our conversation that
might actually get in the way of what's

really being said and making sure that we
are focused so that people can understand.

Thank you and thank you for providing the
focus we all need to be thinking about

when it comes to our finances, but more
broadly about how we learn and approach

very difficult, challenging situations
in our lives, and financial information

and finances are one of those things.

This has been wonderful.

Thank you.

Wendy De La Rosa: Thank you.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about how to be
more effective in your financial

communication, please listen to

episode 104 with Katy Milkman and episode

Matt Abrahams: 59 with Szu-chi
Huang This episode was produced by

Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and
me, Matt Abrahams, with special

thanks to the Wharton Podcast crew.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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