What's New at the IRS Tax Forums

Roger Harris is solo while Annie Schwab is on sabbatical, joined by John Lipold of the IRS Office of National Public Liaison for a look at this summer's IRS Nationwide Tax Forums, including the brand-new Day Zero sessions, the return of case resolution, early-bird pricing, and the cities likely to sell out first. The episode also covers an OPR alert urging every firm to build a succession plan, the IRS appeal in the Kwong case and the July 10 refund deadline it does not extend, renewed seasonal hiring, the new Tax Professional Management Office, and the bipartisan Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act moving through the Senate.

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Links mentioned in this episode
https://www.irstaxforum.com/

Chapters

• (00:00) - Welcome and Guest Intro
• (01:03) - What National Public Liaison Does
• (03:50) - Tax Forum Season Overview
• (05:01) - Cities Dates and Logistics
• (05:57) - What Makes Forums Different
• (10:02) - Pricing and Registration Deadlines
• (11:27) - Case Resolution and Digital Help
• (13:48) - Day Zero Practice Management
• (18:08) - Exhibit Hall and Networking Perks
• (19:52) - Sellouts and Final Forum Tips
• (23:13) - Transition to Other Updates
• (24:12) - Kwong Case Appeal and Deadlines
• (29:54) - Succession Planning OPR Alert
• (39:56) - IRS Hiring and Practitioner Office Changes
• (44:17) - Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act
• (51:01) - Wrap Up and Next Episode

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The full transcript for this episode is available by clicking on the Transcript tab at the top of this page

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Creators and Guests

Host

Roger Harris, EA

President at Padgett Business Services

Guest

John Lipold

What is Federal Tax Updates?

CPAs, Enrolled Agents, and Tax Preparers can keep up-to-date with the latest federal tax information while earning NASBA approved CPE credits and IRS approved CE credits by listening to the bi-weekly Federal Tax Updates podcast. The hosts Roger Harris and Annie Schwab have over 75 years of tax experience between them, which has been featured in various media outlets including Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The Morning Business Report, Bloomberg Business News, and Accounting Today.

Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!

Roger Harris: Hello everyone. It's another federal tax update podcast. This is Roger Harris. Normal, but I'm sort of flying solo this time. As most of you know, Andy Schwab is usually here with me. But, uh, one of our company policies is every five years you get a two week sabbatical to go kind of flush out everything from the last five years and get ready for the next. And she's [00:00:30] actually on a sabbatical. So I hope she's enjoying herself and she'll be back on our next podcast. But I'm not completely flying solo. I'm very pleased to welcome a friend and a guest that's going to be with me for part of our podcast today, I'm joined by John Lipold. He is the chief at the Office of National Public Liaison and primarily outreach and education. And John, as I said, I've known John for a number of years, and I appreciate him joining us. And John, welcome and thank you for joining us today.

John Lipold: Roger, [00:01:00] thank you very much. It's great to be here.

Roger Harris: Uh, as I mentioned, I've known John for, for a while, but I'm sure a lot of our listeners aren't familiar with you, John. So talk a little bit about kind of your background at the IRS. And really for people who don't know, I think probably national public liaison they come in contact with and don't know it, you know, they don't know that that's who they're hearing from or something. So kind of give them your background at the service and what's MPL all about and what are you what are you currently doing about? And then I'll tell everybody why we're here today.

John Lipold: Um, [00:01:30] so, so yes, I, I, uh, lead the office of National Public Liaison at the IRS. We are what we would refer to as an outreach function. Um, some of the programs, uh, that, that we manage, you, you, you and your readers are familiar with, I'm sure, namely the IRS, nationwide tax forums, the, uh, IRS advisory Council, um, and the Electronic tax Administration Advisory Committee. Those are two federal [00:02:00] advisory committees that we both, um, uh, oversee. And then also we, we, we work. We manage relationships with, with a number of outside stakeholders. So, uh, whether that's through the security summit or the monthly, uh, practitioner meeting, small business forums, payroll, uh, calls, things like that. Um, those, those are some of the NPL products.

Roger Harris: Yeah. And again, if you are involved in any of those, whether, you know, you're [00:02:30] working with NPL, you are, that's who you actually, and you do a lot of work and I guess you do a lot of communications just general to the outside practitioner community, uh, as well.

John Lipold: We do. And, and over the last year, uh, we've, uh, you know, with all the changes at the IRS, uh, we have combined with the Office of Stakeholder Liaison. So I'm not working much more closely with them. And it's it's been a great collaboration. [00:03:00] Um, I think it's shown some improved efficiencies and just, just combining all of the talent that is in both of these two offices has been, has been. I, I think it's been a good deliverable for, uh, for you and for the rest of our, uh, stakeholders.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I've, I've been coming to a lot of the events you mentioned for years and it's always been good. And, but it keeps getting better. And we really appreciate the work that they do. And [00:03:30] this is a lot of you have heard on this podcast, when I'll talk about going to an IRS meeting and something I heard or something that was there, it was a meeting that John and his team put on and reaching out to practitioners. And we are very appreciative of, of having that opportunity and look forward to doing it for many more years to come. But today, he mentioned the IRS tax forums, and that's really why I wanted to have John to come on and join us today, because it's IRS tax forum [00:04:00] season. Um they haven't started yet but the registrations there. But um, for some of our listeners, John, they may have never attended an IRS forum. They may not even know that they exist. So explain a little bit about, you know, their history where they, you know, just a broad outline to, to bring our listeners up to speed if they've never attended a forum.

John Lipold: Sure. Uh, so the IRS nationwide tax forum as, as we, uh, officially call it, uh, [00:04:30] is the IRS largest outreach program to the tax professional community. Um, it is a series of 5 to 6 events each summer. Um, we go to different cities and we put on a 3 to 4 day event. Uh, that includes continuing education. Plus a lot of opportunities for our attendees to interact with the IRS.

Roger Harris: Yeah, yeah, it's unique [00:05:00] in that event and we'll come back to that. But yeah, I think you mentioned, I think this year there's five if I'm my brain is working, I think I can remember the locations, I can't remember the dates, but I think we start in Chicago.

John Lipold: We start in Chicago. And I believe that is the the week of July 6th.

Roger Harris: But right after the fourth.

John Lipold: To New Orleans week of August 3rd, New York City the week of August 17th, Orlando, Florida, the week of what is that? August 31st. And then San Diego [00:05:30] will wrap it up, uh, week of September 14th.

Roger Harris: So they're conveniently all around the country. So that, uh, hopefully one of them is convenient to wherever you are located. And there's also those are also some nice places if you want to extend a day or two or come in early and, you know, see the sights. I mean, they, they do a good job of picking up locations where people enjoy just going generally. Um, what [00:06:00] I mean, I know, but in your words, and then I'll add to it. What makes these difference? I mean, I'm sure everybody has gone to sessions where you get CPE, you go sit in a room for eight hours and you get pounded with, see, this is different. Talk about what makes this different than maybe what some of our listeners have experienced normally as they look to get their CPE.

John Lipold: Well, I would say that the major difference is that this is an event that is actually put on by the IRS. So we [00:06:30] have a lot of, uh, tax professional association partners out there, uh, who do continuing education events, multi-day events that are all great. Uh, but what makes us different is that it's actually managed and, uh, and put on by the IRS, I probably rather. The second big difference is just the size of it. Well, all together across all five cities last year we had over 13,000 paid attendees. [00:07:00] And so that may range from anywhere from, I don't know, 16 or 1700 in a smaller location like Chicago to approaching 4000 in a bigger location like Orlando.

Roger Harris: Yeah. And I think the last time you and I talked attendance is up this year, so registrations are up, I guess I should say.

John Lipold: Yeah. I mean, we, we are very pleased, uh, through since we opened registration back in March, we've been running about 10% [00:07:30] ahead of last year. So I'd like to take that as a good omen. Um, yeah, I do you know, who knows why people, uh, were, were registering earlier. Uh, but, uh, I hope to see an increase in our turnout this year.

Roger Harris: And the other thing that I think makes it different as an attendee, um, is, you know, normally when we go to a CPE session, we sit in a room and we sit there for eight hours, we may get a break or two and a, and a lunch [00:08:00] break. And the sessions are pretty much this is it. You come in here, you sit in this room, this is what you're going to hear. There's multiple choices at these forums and you choose almost on an hourly basis what course you want to attend. And so you get to move around. You get to go from one room to another and choose your courses. And some are offered multiple times. So it gives you a really broad selection of topics. So you can kind of tailor it to what's your interest and not just be told you come to this [00:08:30] session, you get eight hours. This is the eight hours you're getting. Sit down, be happy and don't say anything. So, uh, there's a lot of options and a lot of choices over the, the, the three days that credits are being offered.

John Lipold: Yeah. We, uh, we, at any time we have about five concurrent sessions going. So people do have a lot to choose from. Um, I hope it's not too overwhelming, but, uh, we think we give people a good amount of variety to, to, to hit their interests.

Roger Harris: Yeah. And you touched on it, [00:09:00] and I'd like to expand on it a little bit. The instructors are a combination of IRS personnel and then the organizations, uh, the professional accounting associations, the bar, in addition to that, you know, are also teaching. And there are also some sessions, I think I'm right in saying this, where it's a combination of someone from the IRS and someone from one of the associations. So you get the IRS perspective, but you also get to hear it from the perspective of the practitioner [00:09:30] community. So it's, it's like talking to people who can, you can relate to.

John Lipold: Absolutely. I mean, Roger, you, you've been a regular attendee at our forum and then done some presenting. And I think that's what's really nice about this program is that you get that combination. And and then some of the sessions this year, we're going to have panel discussions where you're going to see a combination of both practitioners and IRS people sitting on the same platform. And so it really leads to a nice conversation. [00:10:00]

Roger Harris: Yeah, it's really good. And again, it's, uh, one thing we haven't covered. It's also extremely affordable. Um, I know there's early registration, late registration, but ballpark to and we'll finish. We haven't even finished talking about what's all available, but what's the cost to attend a forum?

John Lipold: So if you come in before our early bird deadline, which is coming up on Monday, uh, the 15th. Yeah, uh, the early bird rate, um, is $275. [00:10:30] Um, so yeah, it's and you get, well, if you're going to count Monday, which we're going to talk about in a second, basically four full days of, of events and see. Um, so, but that early bird deadline that applies to all five of them.

Roger Harris: That's right.

John Lipold: Yeah. So that's June 15th. That's coming up really fast.

Roger Harris: And even after that, once it go up, how much doesn't it's not like it doubles or triples.

John Lipold: It's called the standard rate, which is. 329 right. And [00:11:00] that that kicks in. And I think that that is in effect until about a week or two before each forum starts. So, um, after that, if you, if you didn't register beforehand and just show up on site, uh, we'll charge you $409.

Roger Harris: And that's for what you get. That's still a heck of a deal. You know, for what CPE cost, we talked about the classes that are offered. You guys do a lot of other things. I mean, I'm broadly I remember, you know, [00:11:30] before we get to the, the Monday, um, like the taxpayer advocate has a session, there's a session, You guys call it a preliminary session. I call it like the lunch break session where everybody comes together. You know, there's a lot of other things. There's some case resolution rooms. Talk about the other stuff that's around the the sessions that are also available to attendees.

John Lipold: Well, so you mentioned case resolution and we're super happy this year to to bring back the case resolution program. That is something [00:12:00] that's run by the taxpayer advocate's office. Uh, they were not with us last summer, but they are back this year, uh, due to popular demand. And, and for those who are not familiar with case res, it's a unique program where each attendee can bring in one hard to resolve case that they have a client case. And we, um, through this case resolution program, uh, have resolved, uh, a very [00:12:30] high percentage of these onsite. And so you get an individual kind of appointment with a specialist who is going to help you there face to face, and they can call in, um, uh, you know, headquarters if they need to in. Uh, it's a, it's a great way for many people to, to, um, resolve those, uh, those cases that have been sitting around for some cases months and months, maybe even years.

Roger Harris: Yeah. So you can literally [00:13:00] bring a real live case to one of these forums and sit down with the advocate's office and try to resolve it, which again, try to get that anywhere else.

John Lipold: Yeah. So we're, uh, in addition to that, we, we also have over the last couple of years, we've, uh, opened what we call digital account services program, where, uh, attendees, if you're having a problem with, uh, linking into, uh, any of your IRS accounts, whether it's tax pro account, whether, whether its your calf, [00:13:30] whether it's, um, A host of things. We're going to we're going to have people on site who are going to untangle your electronic connections.

Roger Harris: Yeah. Like I said, just a lot of special offerings that you just don't see typically. Yeah, I want to lean in to what is being called day zero by saying that one of the things that again, that separates or is certainly this year going to separate this from a lot of other, [00:14:00] uh, CPE sessions is I think all of us recognize it's more to being successful in the tax business or the accounting or tax and accounting business than just knowing tax law. You have to know how to manage a firm, how to run a firm, what technology do you need? What, you know, a lot of things that are beyond just knowing the IRS code and guidelines. And, and John and his team, we started kind of putting our foot in the water a few years ago, but we're going all [00:14:30] in on this day zero, which is going to be focused not 100%, but a large part on practice management. Talk about what that this is new this year. This is something brand new that I know I'm proud of because we've been part of it and we'll be continue to be part of it. And you're proud of it. So talk a little bit about what's new this year with Day Zero.

John Lipold: So yes, um, we realized a couple of years ago that we have a lot of people, you know, are traveling to the forum. They come in on Monday and then they come and what [00:15:00] are they doing, you know, for those few hours that they're there and we are, we are. So this year we are launching, uh, day zero. Um, Roger, you mentioned practice management, which we have had a Monday session on practice management, uh, which, which you, you've been hosting.

Roger Harris: Yeah, for the last few years, couple of years. Yeah.

John Lipold: We are going to continue that this year. But in addition, we're going to have a couple more sessions, breakout sessions on practice Mismanagement. So they're going [00:15:30] to address various aspects of it. And then in addition to the practice management offerings, there's going to be an offering from another partner. What's the path to becoming an enrolled agent? Uh, some others are going to talk about focus on rental real estate or compliance and security. So there's going to be, uh, three tracks going on simultaneously. And, and of course, I should mention also that, uh, the annual [00:16:00] federal tax refresher course is going to be part of this. So that's where, where a couple of our partners are teaming up to, uh, give that, uh, that program as well.

Roger Harris: And I think that's probably the only program that starts in the morning. Most of these will start around lunch or shortly thereafter. So about the time you can get in your hotel and get checked in. Now you guys have got something for people to do that afternoon.

John Lipold: Absolutely.

Roger Harris: And actually, I guess it blows [00:16:30] some slides into the early evening.

John Lipold: It'll slide into about 7 p.m. that night. Yeah. So it's it's going to be an all afternoon and evening thing. Um, the digital account services room is going to be open. So for people who are on site and don't want to take any time out of their days during the CE sessions on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, come early. And, you know, talk to the people in digital account services. Also, the case resolution program is going to be open just to take appointments. [00:17:00] So if you're on site early, uh, you know, and haven't made an appointment, um, online beforehand, uh, that would be a good opportunity for you to, to set up a time to meet with them.

Roger Harris: So if you haven't registered, register and come early, if you've already registered, come early. Because again, there's going to be a full agenda that Monday afternoon with, um, gosh, just about every topic you can think of. Uh, and I think we'll be able to keep you informed [00:17:30] and entertained for Monday afternoon before the the more formal sessions kick off Tuesday morning.

John Lipold: Yes. Um, I would say, uh, one note for people who are attending the New York City Forum, we're going to have that, uh, day zero is going to be a bit smaller, uh, than the other four cities. And that's just because of the, the, the space constraints we have, uh, at our, at our property in New York. But otherwise, uh, it's going [00:18:00] to be a full blown day zero in Chicago, New Orleans, uh, Orlando and San Diego.

Roger Harris: Right, right. Um, the one last thing I want to talk about, because sometimes this can be very important is there's a massive exhibit hall at each of these conferences as well, where a lot of the companies that, uh, practitioners do business with will be there. I mean, it's probably one of the larger exhibit halls. You know, certainly on par with most of the accounting conventions you attend. [00:18:30] But talk a little bit about, I mean, you guys are there for one thing, the IRS is down there having a booth, but it's a large exhibit hall that you have access to.

John Lipold: It sure is. Um, we have, uh, some of the major software providers, uh, are exhibiting some of the financial services providers. Um, our association partners are going to be down there. So if you're interested in, in talking with any of them, there's just a host of other businesses that, that support the tax community. [00:19:00] So yeah, it's, it's a really, um, that's also a key part of the forum.

Roger Harris: Yeah. And, and we didn't mention this when we talked about how much it costs, but y'all guys throw in some free food in there too during the.

John Lipold: Yeah, I guess that's we do throw in a couple of freebies there. Well, I guess are they free? I don't know if.

Roger Harris: Well, you don't pay extra.

John Lipold: Yeah. You don't have to pay extra, let's put it that way. Um, but yeah, we have a networking reception on Tuesday evening [00:19:30] and then, uh, another reception on Wednesday evening. So, uh, we give people a chance to notch a little bit, uh, after those, uh, those full days of continuing education.

Roger Harris: Yeah. Which is probably needed. And for those of you that partake, if it's worn you completely out, there's also a bar in there, but that's not free.

John Lipold: That's not free.

Roger Harris: That's not free. Um, these things can fill up. So if you want to go to one, you need to start thinking about it because [00:20:00] there are times when they are actually full. Am I right in that that you cannot attend?

John Lipold: Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. Roger. Um, Chicago, we're we're about a month out from Chicago right now, and Chicago is likely to sell out here in the next week or two. Um, so if you're, if you haven't signed up for Chicago yet, I would do that right now. Um, New York City is also going to likely fill up before, uh, before long. So, uh, another one that you, [00:20:30] you need to San Diego out in September also sells out, um, uh, New Orleans and Orlando. We have a little bit more room to work with. So those, those are generally safer to wait, but it's a good idea to lock it in now.

Roger Harris: Okay. And these are, and I didn't say this, but as an attendee, these are not these are nice properties in good parts of town. I mean, it's not like, you know, we say Orlando when we really mean we're somewhere up 20 miles away. Now, these are really [00:21:00] good properties with a lot of activities. And so it's a it's like I said, it's a great place to come and spend a day or two extra if you want to, but, um, they do fill up and, uh, you need to really start making some plans now to, to get there because you don't want to want to go and get left out.

John Lipold: Agreed.

Roger Harris: Yeah. Okay. Anything else? What have we left off? Is there any. We missed anything. Is there any last thing you want to say to people about the forums?

John Lipold: I don't know. [00:21:30] Um. I do think it's a great opportunity. I mean, if you if people want to come and get their CE credit, but also want to, you know, learn about different career offerings that, that are coming up at the IRS, that that's another thing that, that we did not talk about. We'll have some recruiting people there for, for some positions. Um, there, there's just a lot going on. It's an exciting time. And, uh, I just encourage anybody who hasn't been yet [00:22:00] to, uh, to come and discover it.

Roger Harris: Yeah. You will enjoy it. And, and on a selfish note, if you listen to this podcast and you come to any of the forums, I will be at each forum. So come by and say hello. Uh, we'll be in the exhibit hall except for New York. And, uh, as you said, we'll be part of the sessions on Monday afternoon. So come by and say hello to us and look forward to seeing some, uh, it's been amazing at the past forums to have people come by and say they listen to the podcast. Well, it's nice to know somebody does. So it's nice. [00:22:30] And, um, you'll get to see John. You'll be at all of them too.

John Lipold: I sure will be.

Roger Harris: John. All right. Well, John, I want to thank you a lot. I hope, uh, I look forward to seeing you. Uh, I don't know if I'll see you before Chicago, but I'll definitely see you in Chicago. Um, thank you for coming today. Thank you for all the work you put in to make these forums. What they are there. As I said, if you're if you haven't attended one, you should really put it on your calendar and look to come, uh, if you can before we look forward [00:23:00] to seeing you again. And, um, we'll learn and we'll socialize and we'll have a good time. So John, thank you so much for doing this. Appreciate it. Thanks for all you do.

John Lipold: Appreciate it, Roger.

Roger Harris: All right. We'll be back in a minute with some other updates on some things. But again, thank you, John, for being here. And we'll see you all at the forums. All right. Again, let me I want to thank John for joining us today. It was really a pleasure to have him come and promote the forums. And and I'm serious, [00:23:30] for those of you that listen to this podcast, if you attend one of the forums, uh, we'd love to have you come by and say hello. What I want to do for the rest of today's podcast. And, you know, I apologize for any not being here and you'll have to deal with me for the rest of it. But I thought I would go through a couple of things that have popped up in the last couple of weeks and make sure you're aware of them. Um, there may be some of these things that we'll refocus on with more detail in the future, but there has, there's a lot of activity that happens in the tax world, and not all of [00:24:00] it is legislative and not all of it impacts filing a tax return. And things seem to change on a regular basis. So I thought I would would spend the rest of the podcast jumping around to some of those, I thought I'd start with something that you've heard us talk a lot about recently, which is the quantum case KWONG.

Roger Harris: And this is the case where if you paid a penalty or interest because of late filing during the pandemic, the court ruled that [00:24:30] the due date, uh, was not really what they were during the pandemic. It was really the due date became the date that the president declared the pandemic over. And it became July the 10th and of 2023. And so if you had penalties and interest that you paid or that were assessed and you haven't yet paid them, uh, the Quang case created an opportunity to have those either refunded or abated. So we've talked in detail about [00:25:00] that. But what has changed recently is, again, the IRS made the decision to appeal the court ruling. There was some question as to whether they would actually appeal it or just kind of let the clock run out, but they did appeal it. So now what does that change or what does that mean to us? The filing of the appeal creates some uncertainty, but it doesn't give us any more time to deal with this issue, because the court ruled that the real due date for returns was [00:25:30] July the 10th of 2023. The three year statute of limitations takes us to July the 10th of 2026, and the fact that they appealed does not change the due date. So we still have a very short term opportunity to either file a refund claim based on the facts and circumstances of the taxpayer, or to file a protective claim to try to protect our position beyond the July 10th date. [00:26:00]

Roger Harris: What the appeal makes us do is take more caution as we talk to and advise our clients because who knows what will happen with the appeal. I mean, it's possible that the appeal just gets thrown out and the case stays exactly like it is. It's also possible that the IRS wins the appeal and the whole thing gets reversed, and none of this applies. Or maybe something in between. So that the thing that I think we have to be overly careful about [00:26:30] in terms of what we do now, we still have the July 10th date. So we have clients that we think are entitled potentially to this money or this abatement. We've still got to do it by July the 10th, but we have to be very cautious to tell them that there is no guarantee that this money that we're talking about will or may not ever get paid. But if we don't make the July 10th deadline, there's one thing for certain it will not be paid, and the penalties will not be abated because you didn't meet the deadline. There's [00:27:00] nothing about the appeal that would normally extend the deadline, not what's best. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think the appeal has any impact on the deadline. That would take an action either by Congress or the IRS.

Roger Harris: There's a couple of recent articles that I want to call your attention to that I think are really good. If you haven't read about it, that'll bring you up to speed. They include the reference to the appeal. The Taxpayer Advocate put out a blog on May the 28th. Uh, she's done a really good job [00:27:30] of putting out some blogs on Kwong, and that's the latest one. Uh, I would encourage you to go read that. And then the Journal of Accountancy put out a really good article on May the 29th, uh, again addressing where we stand today with Kwong and the fact that the IRS has appealed. So I encourage you to go look at those two in getting prepared for this and looking back and trying to stay in touch with Kwong. I found something interesting, if you remember, and I know if you listen to this podcast, [00:28:00] you've heard Andy and I talk probably more times than you wanted us to about UGK, and one of the reasons that UGK seemed to continue to go on forever and never end was because, first of all, there was a lot of money involved, probably more than the Kwong, but who knows? Um, and what we called UGK Mills popped up where people who were maybe less reputable as a kind way to describe it popped up with, um, not [00:28:30] guarantees, but close to promises that big refunds for the UGK and they charge large fees.

Roger Harris: And then we found out a lot of those cases weren't accurate. In other words, we all know that story. Well, I saw for the first time this week, uh, and again, I'm not being disparaging of this company. They may be the most highly reputable, best company in the world, but I found it interesting that I saw something called Quan refunds.com, and it looked just like what [00:29:00] you would have thought was an IRC promotion. Uh, they charged 25% contingency fees based on how much money you get from a claim. I don't know how they're reacting to the IRS appealing, but it's kind of an indicator that maybe, you know, the people that were in the IRC business are now moving into the, uh, Kwong business as well. So if we don't advise our clients and we don't do our job, there [00:29:30] may be someone out there who won't be as straightforward and honest with them that would do that. Again, not being critical of Kwong. Refunds.com. Don't know them. They may be great, but, uh, if there's money on the table by getting people money back from the IRS. If you don't step up, somebody will. So that's the update on Kwong. Um, switching gears, uh, OPR issued an alert [00:30:00] on May the 11th talking about succession planning. And what I find interesting here is that if you know who official professional responsibility is, and the circular 230 that guides all of us in our practice, they are recognizing a problem that I think all of us realize is, is accurately, uh, in our industry, which is the lack of succession planning.

Roger Harris: And they approach it from [00:30:30] a different, I think all of us probably think we're invincible and don't think we need to worry about planning for our succession, that it's going to come at a time and a place of our choosing. Uh, unfortunately, that's not true. Uh, we would like to control it completely, but we don't. And the impact that our lack of planning certainly has on us and our family, I think we all recognize, uh, what a big problem that is if our business all of a sudden stops on [00:31:00] a certain day, our family suffers. We suffer. But but but the IRS is approaching this, that there's an obligation to our clients, that they need to have some assurance that they're not put out into the wilderness here and may find it difficult to even comply with their tax obligations. So what did OPR say? They said, first of all, there needs to be a formal plan in all of our firms to deal with this potential [00:31:30] problem. They start by saying developing an agreement with using their terms, an assisting practitioner. So that means that you need to reach out to someone in your circle or in your group or in your association, or whatever the case may be.

Roger Harris: And I guess you can do it back and forth. You can be each other's assisting practitioner, but you need to have an assisting practitioner. Now [00:32:00] what does that mean? And again, some of this is common sense. Some of this is obvious, but some of it's a little more tricky than it seems that that assisting practitioner would need if something were to happen to you, whether you're incapacitated or worse, you pass away and you're, you're not able to ever come back to the business that they would have access to the records of client information, any open client issues, any pending [00:32:30] deadlines, you know, that you can step in and, and, and deal with those. This is where it gets a little maybe trickier than we think. You should also have access to their software and where records are stored. And that means passwords. And in other words, if, if I can be your assistant practitioner, but if I can't access any of the systems in your office, I'm going to be very limited in what I can actually do and [00:33:00] assist. Because think about this. And we've seen this in our company and, and we have a policy very similar to this in place. And even with it, it's not perfect, but it's better than that. But think of it from a client's perspective. And here's some of the things that we have seen. Something unexpectedly happens to someone, uh, in a small firm where there's not a large staff to keep things going and that knows everything.

Roger Harris: This is particularly important for smaller firms. Um, but something [00:33:30] happens and, and the clients all of a sudden can't be serviced by that firm. And they still have their same tax obligations. They still got to file by April 15th. I mean, you know, the fact that their tax preparer can't help them doesn't give them a different deadline. So they, they reach out to the office and say, I need my records back or I need a copy of my depreciation schedule. I need a copy of a tax return. All kinds of things. Or I've brought some work in that I was promised to have it. [00:34:00] I'm going to the bank for a loan next Tuesday, and I was told that I would have a set of financials, and nobody is there to answer the phone or nobody's there that knows the answers. So think about it from the client perspective of how they are poorly treated by something that wasn't planned for by their firm. And we need to make sure, and the IRS is telling us, you need to make sure that your clients [00:34:30] are taken care of. If, God forbid, something were to happen to you. And I think when you step back and think about it, these clients have supported us for many, many years. They've provided us a good living.

Roger Harris: Uh, we all say they're important. We all say how important it is that we take care of our clients. And yet we don't plan for this event and we leave them hanging. So I'm fully supportive of the IRS, [00:35:00] um, doing this. Now, this is not going into circular 230 as a requirement. It's going in as a best practice, but we shouldn't be forced to do this. We should do this because it's just the right thing to do. And I think OPR is just pointing this out. And I think all of us know this intrinsically. We know that this is something we should do, but we don't do it or we again, we just keep putting it off because it's not today's problem. But unfortunately, it could be our problem and [00:35:30] we won't know. Um, they also say that if you actually do have a plan and you do have an assisting practitioner that you let your family and your clients know, uh, I think what may happen if this continues to happen where clients are left hanging, that it's not a stretch to think that potential new clients may come to you and say, well, I Joe, I would like you to prepare my tax return, but I need to know what happens if [00:36:00] something happens to you. Where are my records going to be? How do I access my records? Who's going to know about my situation and can can guide me through it? Because again, I don't get any extra time because something happened to you.

Roger Harris: So it may not be too long before a client or potential clients begin asking us, what is your succession plan? If I if I do business with you and I entrust you with a lot of very important and sensitive information and timely filings [00:36:30] of certain things, can I count on you to have a plan to do that if something were to happen to you? So it's important from there. Um, there's also some IRS issues that may need to be addressed in this plan. You know, something like EEINS calf information. But again, the critical part here is the IRS is stating to us something that we shouldn't probably need to have told us, but we need a succession [00:37:00] plan. We need to know that our clients can be taken care of. More importantly, our family can be taken care of. Because here's another unfortunate reality of a situation like this. One of the reasons that we work the long hours, we. We do all the things that we do and sacrifices that we make to build our business up over 20 years, 30 years, whatever the case may be, it has value, it has equity. And we all hope and believe that at some point [00:37:30] when we decide, you know, we're not doing this anymore, that we will sell that equity to someone who will pay us for the business that we built, and they will take on the responsibilities.

Roger Harris: And that's a perfect ending. That's what we all want it to be. But again, sometimes life happens and gets in the way, and we're not able to sell that business and think about how quickly a business can go away. If something were to happen to one of us in March [00:38:00] and we don't have a way to protect our business, we don't have this assisting practitioner. We don't have staff, we don't have whatever the case may be. Clients don't have time. They may be loyal to you. They may love you. They may think you're the greatest person I've ever met and the smartest tax preparer they've ever met. But you're gone, and they have to do something to, uh, meet their obligations. And so very quickly, that equity in your firm disappears because the obligations [00:38:30] that these people face are still there, and your family will then suffer a second loss. Uh, at that time, they've lost you potentially, if that's what happened and they've lost the equity and the sacrifices that you all made for these years, planning on that equity to be your reward at the end, uh, dissipates because there's no way to keep that business operating until a buyer can be found. So, uh, [00:39:00] I think this is a serious issue. I think when I talk to people at forums, going back to our earlier discussion, uh, this always comes up.

Roger Harris: A lot of people admit I don't have a succession plan. Uh, well, the IRS now is saying you better have one. Uh, it's not a rule yet, but we're getting close. But it's just the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do for you. It's the right thing to do for your clients. It's the right thing to do for your family. So. So take advantage of the PR, bringing it to your attention, um, and get [00:39:30] you a succession plan. Again, we're working very hard in Paget to protect all of our offices. I mean, they have some protection from our corporate staff, but we're also finding ways to enhance their protection so that their clients, and we're doing this mainly for the protection of our clients, so that they know that they will never be left out in the cold if something happens to their representative. Okay. That's it for succession planning. So this, uh, today I thought it was interesting. It's not earth shattering. It's [00:40:00] not going to take a lot of time talking about it, but, um, the IRS is actually doing some hiring, which I thought, I guess we all thought was kind of over, uh, given the cutbacks and things like that. They're hosting events around the country. These appear to be only seasonal hires, primarily in the customer service area and in what they call tax examining techs, technicians.

Roger Harris: So there are some hiring and then there's always some hiring going on with the [00:40:30] IRS. I don't know that this is going to change dramatically the number of employees that the IRS has, but it is nice to know that they can hire some people, uh, particularly to help us during the filing season. Uh, again, one of the challenges is, and we all hear this is that hiring people is one thing, training them is another. And it takes a while to train someone, uh, to, to do the kind of job we want them to do at the IRS. So the sooner we get them in, the sooner they can be fully up to speed. And so I think that's a good [00:41:00] sign. Um, so they are hiring. Interesting thing that I actually saw, uh, I think it was yesterday, uh, for the first time, the IRS, we talked about RPO. Uh, the IRS is reorganizing the units that are devoted to our, our tax practitioners. Um, they're creating something called the tax professional Management office. And this new department will be [00:41:30] led by the current director of RPO. That's Chris and I hope I pronounced his name right. Uh, Heffner. Uh, this is going to be overseeing the RPO, uh, return preparers office and all the offices that are, uh, in dealing with practitioners directly. Um, it's interesting that the IRS says they are doing this to improve [00:42:00] efficiency, that the roles of the departments, um, aren't going to change.

Roger Harris: Uh, the people there aren't going to change. But this management group, I guess going on top level and is supposed to help with efficiencies and simplify some operations. Um, uh, you know, it's, I guess it's brand new. I didn't see it till yesterday, so I don't know that we have any history to look on. Um, the question [00:42:30] that and they were very careful to point this out and I'll figure it out as I continue to read Y that this will not change any of the distinctions that the IRS makes between the credentialed and non-credentialed preparers. That this is not trying to blur those lines in any way. So they were careful to mention that because as I read through the rest of the article, I saw that AICPA has very much [00:43:00] opposed this for that very reason that they believe that this new office and the combining of everything underneath it will blur the lines to the to the tax payer community between the credentialed preparers and the non-credentialed preparers. Again, I haven't had a lot of time to look into this. I respect AICPA opinion a great deal. Uh, so I tend to believe they have a reason for doing [00:43:30] that. But the fact that the IRS specifically mentioned that wasn't going to be the case. Uh, there is at best a disagreement. Um, I'm assuming because this doesn't require congressional action to my knowledge, and the service has indicated they've already done it.

Roger Harris: So we'll just have to monitor this to see if this has any impact on, on any of the things you know that we're currently seeing. Again, the departments are still there. There's [00:44:00] just this management group over it and it's just something to keep an eye on. But again, they specifically mentioned it wouldn't blur the line between congressional, I mean, congressional between credentialed and uncredentialed preparers. But AICPA thinks there's a problem. Uh, a couple of legislative updates of what's going on. I mean, there's, you know, we're in an election year, so I don't know if there's anybody that knows what's really going on, you know, and what laws can really get past, [00:44:30] you know, and particularly in this divided government that we are in right now. Um, maybe they can get something together that they agree on. Who knows if it gets better after the election, I don't know. But there is one piece of legislation that I want to just talk a little bit. I think we've mentioned it on previous podcast, but I thought it would be interesting to, to, to talk about it in the context of what's going on in the House. There's something called the Taxpayer Assistance and Service Act that the Senate is taking up. [00:45:00] It appears there's there's talk about it. There's bipartisan support of it. Um, it's a, it's a bill that primarily touches IRS issues and customer service issues.

Roger Harris: It's not really a tax bill in the sense that, you know, it changes anything from OBB or any other bill or anything like that. Uh, it's got things in it, you know, mainly focusing on IRS improvements, like the digitalization of tax returns and correspondence. The A dashboard that [00:45:30] will inform taxpayers of the wait times and things like that. Um, to that extent, they wanted to expand where's my refund and where's my amended return? So that you can see really the process of where you are in those things better. Um, and we'll touch on some others, but the Senate has taken a lot of these issues and put them in this one big bill. I'm not going to call it a beautiful bill or any of that. It's just one big bill. The House, on the other hand, doesn't disagree [00:46:00] with the need for some of these things, but they are tending to do it in separate bills. So there's more bills that would have to pass in the House to accomplish the same things that the Senate does. So somewhat. There's a race between does the House do what they're doing before the Senate does what they're doing, assuming either one of them can do anything. But my sense is that the Senate process or Senate attention to this will will override because it's all in a single [00:46:30] bill, and that's going to be a lot easier to get through than many other bills.

Roger Harris: But they seem to agree and not 100% they don't agree 100% on anything, but they seem to agree primarily that these issues need to be addressed and the service should address them. And it would it would impact customer service. Um, few other things they want. I think all of us that have had, uh, experience with the callback feature at the IRS seems to be working pretty well. Uh, it's certainly better than waiting on hold for hours. [00:47:00] Um, they want that expanded. Uh, it's hard to say that's not a good thing. Um, one thing that's in here, and I think it's something that despite some of the people pushing back from this, the, the online accounts, both for tax pros, for taxpayers, for small businesses, they want expanded their I mean, I think that's pretty obvious. This is the direction where we're all going to have to get to, and we're going to find more and more of the things that we need. It's going to be in taxpayer [00:47:30] accounts. So they want that expanded. I think the taxpayer accounts are fine. It seems to be the problem that a lot of people have is getting them set up through ID me. And, um, I don't know if this will address that, but we're going to have to get around that problem because I think we're going to all be more reliant on taxpayer accounts or online accounts for different things.

Roger Harris: It does give some help to the taxpayer advocate, which I think is good. I mean, taxpayer advocate does a lot of great things, and we should be very supportive of, uh, of stronger [00:48:00] and more, uh, backed up taxpayer advocate. Uh, one thing that I find really interesting in, in this bill, and again, this is bipartisan, there's not really a strong opposition to it other than it's just a bill. So we got to get it through. Um, it addresses some of the challenges that our industry faces. Um, it addresses taxpayer. Uh. I don't want to call [00:48:30] it regulation because it's really not regulation, but it would allow the service to, uh, pull someone's number, taxpayer reporting and PTEN, whatever the case may be, which has the effect of giving them the ability to say, if you don't follow the rules, we can take away your PTEN and stop you from preparing tax returns. Uh, it's a very basic requirement. It's not it's not as strong as even what we had before loving, but it does at least create the ability for [00:49:00] the IRS to say, you're not doing what you're supposed to do, you're going to have to take some education, you're going to have to do certain things, or we're going to take away your PTEN. You're not going to be able to prepare taxes. It also increases the penalties on us for for some of the things that we do not want to See in our profession.

Roger Harris: So I think it's a good thing. I mean, we can all quibble over is it strong enough? Is it too strong? But I think, you know, going back to the credential versus uncredentialed [00:49:30] preparers, there's there's a lot of evidence that a lot of the problems taking place in the tax world are disproportionately coming from the uncredentialed. And that's partly because they have no requirement to do anything other than get a P ten, uh, and a computer and some software and whether they intend to do something wrong or accidentally do something wrong, it's still wrong. And we would all be [00:50:00] better off to have people at least having to show some minimum level of competency before you can prepare something as complicated as a tax return, because the tax system for everybody that says we're going to make it simpler, that just doesn't happen. It just continues to get more complicated and more difficult. So I think most people in our industry are supportive of some sort of, uh, using regulation. This isn't regulation in the sense of regulation, but some sort of standards for people to have to meet to prepare, uh, tax [00:50:30] returns. So that's in this bill. It's also got a comparable, uh, bill in the Senate, in the House. Uh, they're very similar. So whether this can move in an election year, these things can move in an election year and still, you know, to be seen, we don't know.

Roger Harris: But, um, it's out there and it's bipartisan and there's really no strong objection that any of us can see, but it is caught up in the political environment that we find ourselves in. So whether it'll pass or not, we'll see. [00:51:00] Uh, I think that's it for today, I hope. Uh, I know you guys missed Annie, and so do I. And I wish she was here and this podcast would be a lot better if she was. But hopefully you found John very informative, and I hope you will take advantage of what he's told us and told you about the forums. And pick a city, pick a date, uh, show up at a forum, uh, gave you some updates on some other pending things. Uh, as always, I want to thank all of you for listening [00:51:30] to this podcast. Uh, I'm always amazed to run into somebody who is a listener, and it's nice to hear that you enjoy this, and we hope that you will continue to listen and you tell your friends about it and send us suggestions for other topics. Um, and he will be back for the next podcast and, uh, hope you will too. And thank you for listening today. Thank you for your loyalty and we look forward to having you back next time for another federal tax update podcast. Bye, everyone.