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Chasing the Game: Youth Soccer in America is a weekly podcast for soccer parents, coaches, and players who want to understand how youth soccer development really works in the United States.
Hosted by two dads, filmmaker Liron Unreich and investor Matt Tartaglia, the show covers everything from grassroots soccer to elite pathways like MLS NEXT and ECNL. Combining data, real experience, and expert insights from academy directors, college coaches, and former pros, each episode explains what families truly need to know.
Weekly episodes focus on the core aspects of youth soccer: player development, coaching culture, college recruiting, tryouts, travel costs, and the challenges of parenting in youth sports in today’s competitive environment.
For families navigating youth soccer’s complex system, Chasing the Game offers practical advice, credible voices, and relatable stories from two dads working to make sense of American player development, one episode at a time.
Hey everyone, especially you, Matt.
Don't you wish you could take an argument from the sideline straight
to the person who can actually explain the rule?
Maybe, maybe even change it.
Well, we brought you that person.
Luis Robles is back on the pod.
Now, Matt, um, why do you think general manager
sporting, for MLS NEXT, would agree to
come back, it's got to be our charisma, right?
Or professionalism.
Or he wanted to hear my soapbox.
No, I think I think Luis came back because
he cares and he's deeply invested in continuing to make things better.
Excellent point, Matt.
Yes, he came back for us and to everyone else in
this youth soccer ecosystem.
He started the conversation today with a memory of a story that
you told Matt, I know.
Not that I told, nothing, you, about
figuring out how to better support your son.
And that's why we're all still here, right?
Yeah, Luis, he took a chance on us when we were just getting started.
Now he's back with an even
bigger role at MLS NEXT.
He directly helps shape the system.
Many of our kids play it.
And he's also a dad standing on the sideline watching his own kids go through it.
And we brought a year worth of question this time.
We ask what's actually changed since last time, why the
games are being structured differently.
What Homegrown and Academy mean
for a family choosing between them.
And Luis explains the high school rule in a way that
hopefully provides some clarification.
And all that in an expertly edited 45 minutes, not a spare second.
Straight from someone, helping
make these decisions, to dads
demonstrating how confused we still are and can get,
here is Chasing the Game.
Youth soccer in America.
We're making a difference.
Luis: Thanks for having me on.
Matt: I mean, I think the, the gratitude is
mutual because when we started this a year
ago, you took a bit of a risk with us,
and I think you were our first or second
guest, uh, and we were very new at this.
So we appreciate it, and you helped
us, um, I think launch this, honestly,
and we've picked up a lot of momentum.
I think there's a lot of people out
there who care, and we've certainly
found that there's, there's, um, a lot
of people trying to do the right things
and great things as part of this, and
we're still here trying to unpack it.
Luis: That's a really important point.
There are a lot of people who
have been doing this for a long
time that are doing good work.
And I know coming out of the World
Cup, there definitely is a momentum
behind some nar- negative narratives.
And what's unfortunate about that is
when I think about my youth soccer
coach, Wolfgang Weber, who's been
doing this for 40 years, who's just
been committed to soccer in Southeast
Arizona before there was the DA,
before there was Next, before there
was ECNL, before there was any of this.
He just wanted kids to
fall in love with soccer.
And I think there's hundreds of
thousands of those, who have just been
committed to trying to grow this game,
uh, helping kids fall in love with it.
And, a- and there was one
episode that I really appreciate.
there was a moment where Matt was
sort of on his soapbox, but it
wasn't in any way pontificating.
It was simply, you could feel the
genuine emotion, like, within you.
Like, I just wanna figure out
how I can support my child.
I just wanna be able
to, to help in any way.
And if I feel this way, if I feel this
way, there have to be thousands, tens
of thousands, hundreds of thousands
of parents who feel the same way.
And that was raw.
It was real.
Liron: Well, uh, thank you Luis for
coming, and we'll see you next year.
This has been, uh, tremendous.
I really appreciate this.
Wow.
Well, I could- Matt, it
couldn't have turned out better.
It was so good
it just, it was so vulnerable
Matt: I, I mean, honestly, we, we,
like we, we, we're not professional
interviewers, and we are certainly
not, uh, professional soccer analysts
by any means, although we try to play
one on podcast from time to time.
we hope that there are a lot of,
you know, our boys' ages, right, at
13 and 14, listening to these pods
every once in a while, or at least
watching them on YouTube, uh, and
just taking away something, right?
Like, we don't need them
to listen for 45 minutes.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I don't know why.
I… We, we, we play them in the
car, and we just lock the doors.
Liron: My son never watched any of it.
No.
Luis: You really are
just reaching out there.
It's like maybe we can, we can
touch that, And yet today the big
announcement is Pochettino naming
his first roster post World Cup.
He named 28 players, some big surprises.
And 21 of those players have come
through MLS academies, which is a really
proud moment for everyone who has been
working behind the scenes to try to
develop players here in this country.
Liron: And your point about the
young MLSers coming into the
national team coming off this World
Cup, which was like a hangover.
Uh, everybody was just, you
know, and it ended a certain way,
an event, right?
I mean, just amazing.
Like,
take away the, the way it ended for us,
but like, what, what an incredible event.
Yeah, but even if we take our end in
perspective, it ended like, like it okay.
It ended like, uh, you
were beat by Belgium.
I mean, when we're saying
it like this was like
Luis: First time ever we finished
with a winning record in a World Cup.
We, for the first time
ever, we won our group.
Uh, some, some great firsts, and
I think this is what even today
is about, is measuring progress.
You can't speed up time.
We have to make sure that we continue
to refine our process, keep challenging
it, making sure it's the right process.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Liron: speaking, it's on…
You, you sure you don't have my
script with all my questions?
Because it's literally my question.
Matt: He, he went on Claude
too. What is happening
Liron: here?
Uh, we,
Luis: Mm-hmm.
Liron: met a year ago.
You're looking at this now, MLS NEXT.
If you had to kind of do, like, a quick
gut check, don't have to go too deep, what
did you think really materially improved?
Luis: So I think one of the biggest
highlights when I think of last
year is we were able to balance
the competition in the olders.
So we were able to do that by
having MLS academies play up a year.
And let's just think about
from a numbers perspective.
In, in '24, '25, when we looked at the
games, let-- There's-- I'm gonna throw
some numbers at you, so I'm gonna go slow
Liron: Matt is here.
Don't worry
Luis: At the U18 age group, They
won, they won 71% of the time
against elite academies, so non-MLS.
And during those wins in that age group,
28% were big wins, so four goals or more.
In the U16 age group, they
won just over 80% of the time.
And then the biggest of
all of them was the U15s.
when they played against non-MLS, uh, it
was 83% of the time they won, it was also
58% of the time was big wins, So what that
was telling us is, okay, the games weren't
as competitive as we need them to be for
development, but when they are lopsided
games, it's not good for either team.
So you guys probably
witnessed a lot of that.
And so I went to all the MLS academies and
said, "Look, this is what the data shows.
And if we're thinking through the lens
of player development- We need to find
a way to make the games more competitive
so that our players are challenged.
And when our players are challenged,
that bodes well for the long term.
So this past year, it
went incredibly well.
what was great is the U16s playing
in U17 only won 48% of the time.
And when they won, it was only 19% of
the time that it was four goals or more.
So that's already great.
U15s won 41% of the time, and
when they won, only 9% of the
time was it four goals or more.
what we're able to see throughout
the season before the competition
is a more balanced competition.
And by it being more balanced, it
is better for player development,
it's better for everyone involved.
And the feedback we got from MLS
academy directors and elite academy
directors was overwhelmingly positive.
Liron: What about the less positive?
Something that surprised you that
didn't work or still a work in progress
Luis: we're still not telling our story.
so case in point, first weekend,
my, my, my son, they, they played
Beachside United or Beachside CT.
It finished 1-1, and it was like chaos.
No one knew what was happening.
One team knew that we're
Matt: game or if it
Liron: That's what my son-- Wait, wait.
My son told me to ask you that question.
I swear to God, Lavie said,
'cause they, they-- we tied Red
Bulls 5-5, and everybody left.
Yeah,
People left, and the kids were
like, "No, you gotta stay."
And he guys losing like 5-1 and you
We were-- Yes, we were losing 5-1, but
he told me to ask you about the PKs.
Luis: Yeah.
So
Liron: right.
Luis: we, we, we wanna take
every opportunity possible
to develop these players.
And, and this came last year
when the U17s lost to Morocco.
Do you know how they lost?
It was in the knockout stage.
How did they lose?
Matt: Lost in penalties
Luis: They lost on penalties.
So does that mean that we need
to just PK ourselves to death?
No, but I think we could take more
opportunities for all of our players
to be in situations where they're
in PK shootouts so that they're more
prepared if they're at the U17 World
Cup or they're at the NCAA Final
Four, or one day at the World Cup.
And so what we
Matt: I think it's, I
think it's brilliant.
It's a different level of pressure.
Kids who aren't taking penalties
have a chance to take a penalty.
It also brings a team together,
or a team fractures and you've
Luis: Oh, yeah, yeah.
We lost the penalty and you
could see like it, it was tough.
It was
Liron: we've already had kids crying
Luis: that- that's what we want.
We want kids to feel pressure.
We want kids to be in that moment
and then eventually rise above the
moment, be bigger than the moment.
And I just remember when I played and we
would be in the Open Cup or we'd be in,
in CONCACAF Champions League, it was the
only time that we practiced penalties.
And no matter what we did, we would
like, the losing team has to run or
the losing team has to do push-ups.
You can't mimic pressure.
It's so difficult.
So what we wanna do is we wanna expose
our kids to real pressure as much as
possible, and this is why we decided
in flex matches, if it ends in a tie,
it's gonna go to shootout I met with
all the elite academy directors, I
met with our competition work group,
I met with CSOs, I met with first team
coaches, and I said, "Hey, if there's
one thing that you think that we should
really look into next year," what came
out was penalty kicks and playing time.
But at U13, the kids should be playing.
And what we decided is we're
gonna go three periods of 25.
So right away, people's response are
like, "What, are we playing hockey?" It's
like I, I don't, I don't know a better
way to do it, because I don't think they
should be playing 80 minutes, so if we
did quarters, uh, it feels really long.
30 minutes, it's not easy to split
that up, so are we gonna tell
everyone they're gonna play a half?
But by everyone playing an uninterrupted
third, every kid on match day knew
that they were gonna get 25 minutes
Liron: Well, half of the United
States now thinks that soccer
is four quarters anyway, so that
wouldn't have been a stretch.
Matt: hydration breaks.
Yeah, I mean, that, that was one of
the big things you talked about a
year ago, I believe starting at U16,
if you're subbed off at any point in
the match, you can't come back on.
And I'd be curious to know, one,
why we made that decision, is
that the way it looks in Europe
or in South America or both?
Luis: did just come back from
Spain and France, and it was one
of the questions I, I, I asked.
So I was able to sit with
the French Federation.
I was able to sit with
the Spanish Federation.
I was able to sit with a lo- a lot of
different clubs and just really pick their
brain when it comes to player development.
And one thing that was clear is i- the
competition is part of development.
It-- You have to also
introduce competition.
Uh, it can't just be there from the onset.
If you go to Argentina, it's
competition all the time.
Uh, so I mean, everyone has like
a different process, but it was
just so cool to sit and learn.
We have different challenges,
uh, but we also have different
strengths that we should lean into.
And one of the things that was really
clear on those trips is the culture
is so vibrant, the soccer culture.
And so some people are gonna say, "Oh,
we don't have soccer culture here,"
and… Or we're, we're still developing
it, which is, which is partly true.
You know, we don't have the same soccer
culture as what it is in other places
in this country or in this world.
But what I would lean into is the
sports culture in this country.
Liron: Mm-hmm.
Luis: And eventually we will
find, you know, what works for us.
It's gonna take time, and we're probably
gonna synthesize and go through the
lens of what it is to, to be a, an
American athlete and, and compete
in the United States, and eventually
we'll-- we're gonna figure it out.
Um, but it isn't gonna
be a copy and paste.
It, it's gonna be an amalgamation
through all of that, but it has
to go through what is it, what
is American sports culture like?
What is it like to play
in the United States?
And, uh, there's some really big
positives and there's some really big
challenges, but I'm also glad that
so many people are focused on it.
Liron: Well, if we go, if we go back
to communication with parents, Quality
of play, we talked about it last year.
One of the challenges was how do we
communicate this new idea to parents?
Do you think that you've done a good job?
Do you think there's more
clarity in the system itself?
Luis: There's always work to
be done with quality of play.
So one of the parts of your question
is, have we properly communicated it?
Do parents feel like
they completely grasp it?
I can't confidently say
yes to either one of those.
I think it's still a work in progress.
I think we have to ask what works for
us, and we wanted to introduce some
form of end-of-year competition at 13s
and 14s, but we didn't want it to be so
early on just about winning and losing.
We want our coaches, and this is
hopefully a part of our conversation as
well, is we want our coaches to focus on
developing players at those ages because
it's pre-formation, it's formation,
it's before the performance stages, and
we really want the priority to be on
helping our kids develop technically,
tactically, and the IQ that's required to
help them when they continue to advance.
Because eventually it's gonna be, you
get to 16, 17s, 19s, college, pro, at
that point it, it's, it's not about what
you intended, it's about the end result.
But by creating a safer space, uh,
for kids to try to intend to delib-
be deliberate, knowing that they may
not be strong enough to kick the ball
far enough, or they, they may not be
strong enough to get that pass through.
But to have an analyst sit
there and at least score it, I
think has been really positive.
But to me, the biggest positive about
quality of play and Taka is last year we
were averaging each month 35,000 hours
of video consumed each month each month.
So homegrown and academy, every single
player has a player profile, and every
single player can watch their clips
Liron: I mean, 8,000 hours
is probably Matt and I, but,
uh, by the way, just to be
Matt: 7800
Liron: I knew I, I got that math wrong
Luis: I think it's so cool to just be
on my phone and go to the website or
go to, go to the app and just watch the
previous game with my son and we watch
the clips and I, I ask him questions.
What, you know, what do
you think about this play?
What do you think you
could've done better?
What do you think about, like, what would
success look like in this situation?
Like, to be able to do
that, it's incredible.
Luis: 28 years old was the first
time I had access to a laptop or to a
profile where I could watch, And then
I became obsessed and really around
30, 31, I'd sit and watch with a coach.
But guys, I'm not gonna lie,
it creates a lot of anxiety.
Especially when, as a goalkeeper, I
knew I made a big mistake in the game
before to, to, to click that play
button and watch the play and see
yourself make mistake after mistake.
But, uh, you have to
have that growth mindset.
The reason you're watching it is
not to make yourself feel bad.
It's to figure out how can I improve,
how can I be better, so that the next
time it comes around, I will succeed
Liron: My son, uh, my son said they had
a, they, they had a game, uh, against
Red Bulls, the one you mentioned.
It was, ended at 5-5.
So they had a video meet, uh,
it was last week or something.
So it's not, the goals were not his fault,
it didn't really matter, but they're
watching the, they're watching the chain
of events and, and they're, "Okay, repeat.
15 second…" He goes, "Why do we
have to repeat the ball going into
the goal so many… Okay, we got it.
There was a mistake in this line.
Let's cut it."
So
Luis: he's gonna be in a lot of
those sessions for a long time, you
know, because he's able to progress.
It never gets easier.
Matt: Luis, talk about the growth of MLS NEXT.
So when you launched, I think it was with
9,000 players, Um, and then we spoke l-
last season, and it was up to 16,000.
Now you've added another division with the
academy division, so you're over 43,000.
Liron: Mm-hmm.
Matt: so Luis, the naysayers would
say that there is a huge marketing
play here for MLS, um, especially
as you've gone to a second division.
I'm sure that's not what you
guys are intending to do or,
or that is what has been done.
How do you guys see it, and what
do you want to improve upon as
you continue to grow and the
academy division solidifies itself?
Luis: And so at the homegrown
level, now you have your 30 MLS
academies and you have 122 non-MLS.
But even in the 122, you're
starting to see Next Pro pop up.
So even more of those are coming,
and, and this is something
that didn't exist previously.
And I think that is now sort of
what's taken over the DA homegrown.
That's still gonna be that top tier.
That's still that tournament season.
It's where players are aspiring to.
But the reason why academy division
is so important is because that would
be a lie and a hasty generalization
to say, "Oh, all the top players
are there." It's a big country.
There's areas that are
really difficult to get to.
They may not have that same access.
So with the academy division, what
we've been able-- One of the biggest
positives is that we're in more
areas, which creates more access,
which creates more opportunity.
I hear all the time, "Oh, it's a money
grab. It's a money grab." Like, it's a
money grab, then why are we struggling
so much to, like, try to make ends meet?
You know?
Like, like the MLS owners, they
invest anywhere from three to
seven million in their own academy.
So now even if you do it on the
low end, three million for 30
academies, it's almost $100 million.
And then even for Next to run
as a, as a platform, uh, it's
another eight-figure number.
So the investment in player development in
this country by way of Major League Soccer
and its ownership groups is massive.
It's a nine-figure investment, and
we'll never be able to recoup that.
Oh, you can say like, "Oh, they'll
make it on transfer fees and such,"
but okay, that's a handful of players.
It's not necessarily the tens of
thousands that we're trying to serve.
And so when I think about in 2024,
it was Fest in Indio, and we were
in, we had-- we're in this pod with
19 fields, and every field was full.
Parents were cheering.
Kids were making noise.
US national team scouts along with
18 other n- other nations and their
national team scouts were walking around.
I sat there with like 30 to 35
college coaches watching this game.
And to me, like even that moment,
was part of the reason we do it.
Juventus, Manchester United,
Arsenal, they're all out there,
Benfica, scouting our players.
And I was just thinking, "How can
we give this to more people? How
can we create more opportunities
for more people to be a part of this
community?" Because Next really is a
platform, but beyond the platform is a
community, and we wanna develop players.
We wanna develop the next
generation of talent that'll
impact the professional game.
We also wanna give people
the best experience possible.
So it's like, it's both, right?
We, we wanna figure out how we
develop, but we also wanna figure out
how can we give a better experience.
Liron: I, um, I g- I got this question
from one of the parents on… who DM'd us.
You have that parent, they're sitting in
the car now, and they have two offers.
They have an offer from, uh, academy,
and they have a h- offer from homegrown.
Le- uh, uh, from what I understand, the
homegrown system, you need a B license
to be a coach versus C in academy, uh,
four times a week practice versus three.
There are differences that
are, that are substantial.
But for that family, where let's say going
to homegrown means an extra two hours of
drive each way, there's just… The extra
drive, not guaranteed play time, and extra
competition or additions, and I know each
family needs to make their own decision.
But what's difficult for many to
understand is what is the gap between
homegrown and academy as far as
development or environment is concerned,
Matt: The one part of your question
that's missing is how old is the kid?
'Cause I think that has
a, probably a significant
Luis: there's a lot of
Matt: in the answer
Luis: into play, and Matt, how
old the kid is, is very important.
That-- See, that, that's not,
it's not a straightforward answer.
I, I, I wanna share a story.
I wanna share an experience I had.
I was at Cup.
It was late.
I think it was 9:45.
It was one of the later games.
And
I'm just sitting on a golf cart and this
lady comes over and she asks a question.
And then she asks about her kid and the
circumstance that you guys just asked,
and her kid, 16 years old, was playing
academy division at a very good club Um,
but I, but I asked her, "Is, is he having
fun?" And she said, "Yeah, he loves it.
Blasts like his teammates." And I
was like, "Is he playing all the
time?" "Yes, he's playing most of the
games." Uh, "Does he feel like he has
a good, uh, connection with his coach?
Does his coach give him good feedback?"
She's like, "He loves his coach."
And I was like, "Then it sounds
like he's in a great development
experience." at the core of it, like
she was asking genuine questions for
what's best for her kid, and every
situation's gonna be slightly different.
She was in Southern California.
They have density.
They have great teams there.
Um, it's gonna be
different than the Midwest.
Her son's 16 years old, so at this point,
if he wants exposure, he has to play.
He cannot be on the bench.
He has to be playing.
And he really liked his coach.
So there were a lot of pauses for
that experience that I think for
that player, he's in the right place.
But it-- The, the exposure that our
players are getting is unlike any time
in soccer history for this country.
Matt: But
how do you, from a quality control
perspective, how do you manage it?
How does that actually work, and
how are you guys making it better?
Luis: So this past year is the first
time that we actually came with a club
performance evaluations or CPE process.
And there's five different
buckets that we evaluate.
The match day operation, the staff,
um, the actual operation, the team
performance, and then the, the
development that comes out of it.
And so we were able to do that for
all 152 homegrown clubs, and they got
a report card at the end of the year.
And that report card led to some teams
making decisions because we were leaning
in a certain direction for those clubs.
Um, some stuck with us, uh,
though they're not playing in
homegrown this year, and some left.
And they, they have the right to do that.
So now we will do that with both
tiers, and I do think that that
will play a part in the way that
we look to the future of who is in
homegrown, who's in academy and beyond.
But for us to be able to do that this
past year was a huge step forward for us
because it's never gonna be completely
objective, the same way quality of play
is never gonna be completely objective.
But we are trying to get as
close to objectivity as possible.
And with the club performance
evaluation, we're taking data
from player registration, from
discipline, from just pure scores and
standings, um, from referee reports.
Uh, everyone has to fill out a, a fair
whistle report at the end of the game.
What I mean is three
reports are filled out.
The center ref, and they evaluate
the coach's behavior, the parent's
behavior, the overall experience.
And then each head coach has
to evaluate the opposing coach,
the referee's performance, and
then the overall experience.
So now we have three different viewpoints
on every single match that is played
in MLS NEXT, and that is also factored
into our club performance evaluation.
We wanna improve coaching
across the entire landscape.
There are certain factors of
the youth sports experience,
uh, that are uncontrollable.
We have to pay for fields.
It, it's brutal.
Like, no matter where you're
at, some clubs have great deals
with municipalities, most don't,
so you have to pay for fields.
You have to pay for referees.
Someone has to pay for
the referees because
Liron: it's expensive to run a game.
Luis: The coaches, some of those coaches,
that, that is a full-time profession,
and the reason why parents choose to go
to that club is because they know that
this coach, this isn't a part-time gig.
So if there's areas that we
can attack, it's travel, right?
If we can reduce travel, which
it's something that we've done
this past… This, this season,
I hope you guys experience it.
So even in the North, the Northeast
is, like, the best because there
aren't too many long trips.
Uh, but even we wanted it to
be so that there's no-- That we
minimize double fixture weekend.
And the reason why we wanna minimize
double fixture weekend is because then
families aren't staying in hotels.
That was really important to us.
You'll still play everyone in the league,
but the goal through all of that was
very, very strategic to minimize the
amount of travel that families go on.
And if we can minimize the travel,
we minimize the hotel nights.
If we minimize the hotel
nights, it reduced costs.
So
Matt: the way, you- you've,
you've done it.
Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I looked
at the schedule and was blown away
with the simplicity and, uh, and the
lack of, of significant travel, But
I think 80, 80 to 85% of our games
are within an hour-and-a-half drive.
So that was, um, that was a really
happy 10 minutes of looking through
a schedule and, and recognizing,
recognizing I might be able to
watch my s- my daughter's games too.
Luis: Yeah.
I mean, I wish we could
do that for every region.
But sometimes we also overcomplicate
it because of social media and FOMO.
Like staying local and playing local
and only organized training two to
three times a week and then just playing
soccer to play soccer the rest of
the time, that's a really good thing.
You don't have to be in
structured training all the time.
And I think that would bring a lot
of anxiety down for, for families.
how can we get good, meaningful
conversat- uh, competition without
feeling like we have to travel so far?
Liron: That's what, how I knew the,
uh, podcast has made it I put a clip on
TikTok of me asking… "Oh, let's abolish
travel. You know, 15 miles, da, da,
da, da." Of course, I live in New York.
I have no idea what 15 miles
is in the rest of the country.
I'm telling you, I'm getting
destroyed live as we speak.
I see it pop up.
"15 miles won't take me to the
grocery store, you elitist bastard."
Look, but, uh, but I get the point.
Luis: look, I, I lived in a, a small town,
15,000 people, and so Tucson, Arizona
was the, the closest club soccer for
me, and it was an hour and a half away.
It was 78 miles, the drive to get there.
The border was closer.
And, and I played a lot of soccer in
Mexico and, and I learned how to keep my
mouth shut when I was playing with adults,
and that was also part of my development.
I'm not saying that we need to
replicate that experience, but now
as someone who has the ability to
influence it and being a parent on
the sideline, I am thinking about all
of those parents that I'm standing on
the sideline with, like, how can we
deliver a better experience for them?
But also, how can we just make this,
uh, as affordable as possible for them?
Liron: No, I like this new initiative.
We put kids in a bus and we
put them across the border
to play unstructured soccer.
It's great, and let- let's meet
next year and see how the program
man, I hope that's not the
biggest takeaway from, from this
whole thing
Liron: I'll tell you though, the, back-
back to Matt brought a great point,
and you've- you've added onto that.
Now, as you're trying to kind
of understand, and you said it's
only one year, so I'm not, I'm
not judging, I'm just asking.
You have homegrown and you have
academy, and now we're mixing the
two, and now you got high school,
because you brought up ages.
So if… I'm trying to kind
of get my head around this.
If you're homegrown, you cannot
play high school, and your
calendar year is a calendar year.
You're n- it's not a
school year for your age.
And if you're academy, you can
play high school, and the ages
revolve around school year.
So I, and again, I don't mean that's
right or wrong, but there is a sense, or
a, or call it an optics, the word optics,
that the decision you have to make is,
okay, I gotta play lower level academy
soccer or MLS soccer for me to play
for my high school or for my community.
Would you agree with that sentiment?
Luis: Not necessarily, because the
update to the high school rule is
there's just no simultaneous play.
And the main driver for that is
the feedback that we're getting
from academy directors, the amount
of players that were injured.
They were seeing an uptick in injuries.
Well, when we started to look into
it through our medical group and,
and, and other perspectives, it's
like, how can it ever be good for a
player to play five games in a week?
'Cause what we would see is a high
school season is anywhere from 16 to
20 games in a short period of time.
So they cram the games in, but then of
course you wanna play with, uh, with your
club team, and if it's a double fixture
weekend, like some players are playing
four to five weeks, uh, four to five
games in a week for six weeks in a row.
And so now, it-- there's, there's
never gonna be an easy way to slice it,
but now the choice is for the player.
So if that player chooses to play
high school, okay, that's fine.
It, it just can't be simultaneous.
This helps us, um, control what
we can't-- we control what we can
control, which is the amount of
games that player plays that week.
Um, but then when he's
done with high school,
Liron: they play, can they play high
school, can they play high school and when
the high school season is over just come
back to their MLS NEXT, uh, homegrown?
Matt: So November 1st, the
high school season ends.
Can a kid come and play
homegrown right after that?
Do they have to wait until January?
What is, what
Luis: You can as, as long as
there's no simultaneous play.
So yeah, midway through the season,
the kids could say, "Uh, I, I don't
wanna play high school anymore," and
they can go and play in Homegrown.
They, it, it's just the-- What we've
done is we've sort of tried to remove
ourself out of the equation of adding
more games and more training sessions
to that kid during the week, so
there's just no simultaneous play
Matt: That, that is I think one
of the most… The way you just
explained it is not how I've heard
Liron: know it.
I know this w- Matt,
you're
Matt: at all.
I, I mean- Luis,
Liron: we have a problem here, man.
Matt: mean at all, because it's like the
biggest thing that I hear parents now
that if a kid played high school, they
couldn't even join, and let's say they
had this huge development, they, they
had this huge stretch of development,
and then they had been playing academy
or ECNL or whatever it was, and then
they decided, "Well, you know what?
Maybe I'm ready to play homegrown,"
and they were able to make a team,
that they wouldn't actually be able
to play homegrown that year at all
because they had played high school.
Essentially, that they
were being penalized
Luis: No.
So look, Our rule is just
no simultaneous play.
So let, let's walk through that.
So let's say a high school team
starts the last week in August.
At that moment, if that child is
gonna play high school, they fill
out the waiver, because what the
waiver does is they register with us.
We now know that that player
has chosen to play high school.
Cool.
The only thing that we've now,
according to our rules, is y-
you cannot play simultaneously.
You can train, but you can't play games.
And so that player can finish the
high school season and say they don't
make the playoffs and the season's
done October 18th, well, they're not
simultaneously playing high school
anymore, so they can rejoin and,
and play the next weekend with Next.
But again, the clubs also have their
rules too, and coaches and directors
and the way that they wanna run it,
and we're supportive of that as well.
But just so everyone is clear,
is the rule, the updated rule
is there's no simultaneous play.
Liron: A club can refuse a
high school play regardless
Luis: And then at that
point, that's a club rule.
Matt: that to me makes sense.
I think it's fair to look out
for, uh, ultimately the player
and their, their health, right?
Uh, and that you guys can do that at that
level, and then ultimately it should be up
to the club on whether or not they decide
to let a kid come join them at the end
of October after there've been 15 or 16
kids training for two and a half months.
Luis: if I could wish for
something in this country that
could help with player development
and it could help with a lot is
American football has their season.
Basketball has their season.
Softball, baseball,
lacrosse have their season.
Why is it that soccer
doesn't have their season?
Why is it that soccer
throughout the country is at
different times in high school?
Matt: Yeah, well, that's right.
We didn't e- we, we
didn't even get into that.
I mean,
W- we, we couldn't not have a
conversation and bring up pay to play,
and we somewhat danced around it.
And, uh, we don't necessarily wanna
go into it and hammer it, but I am
curious, Is there any discussion
with trying to figure out how you
better bring private enterprises in?
And even if you think about the
next tier of elite academies, right?
There are probably 30 to 50 of them in
the country, we, we don't have to get into
names, who are… You know, they show up
at the top of the rankings consistently,
but, but they are very much a pay-to-play
group, and they give scholarships,
and I'm sure they do the best
Luis: But that doesn't get talked
about enough, Matt, is the amount of
scholarships that these clubs give.
And let me even share
a story from last year.
For the team that my son plays on,
in October, there was a kid that
showed up at training, and I just
made it to the training session.
I usually get there the last 10, 15
minutes, and I notice this kid, he's
not… He hasn't been there before.
I'm like, "Man, this kid is really good.
Who is he?" They said, "Oh
yeah, we sort of know about him.
We found him at this event." And I was
like, "We need to figure out how to sign
this kid." Well, this kid was, was in a
financial situation where it was gonna be
really challenging for him to be there.
The club found a way
that he was a part of it.
This kid was in a situation where
it was really challenging for him to
go to Fest, to go to these events.
The club and the parents found
a way for him to go, and he
did so well that he progressed.
They even moved him an age group up,
and they ended up winning cup, and now
he's on the, the U-15 national team
playing in an MLS academy, and that
was provided by a club who was willing
to give him a scholarship, that was
willing to make sure that there was no
reason why he couldn't be somewhere,
and now he's in a free-to-play.
So we have a rule in Next that every
club has to give one full scholarship.
We introduced the rule because
we will ramp it up over time.
But what we realized when we went through
the, the evaluation process of could we
do this, every club was already doing it.
Every club was already… That's, that's
how they're competitive is, is they
have to find ways to give scholarships.
And now you ask a question about
are we working with groups,
private groups that could do more.
Um, I think the federation is having
some incredible conversations, and
it's all with this idea of like, how
can we make this more accessible?
And I, what I anticipate is over the
next couple years, there's gonna be some
reform that now will introduce some of
those funds that the federation is raising
that will have an impact on grassroots.
To me, when you're in that U15 to
U19 age, there is gonna be costs
unless you're in an MLS academy.
Where we can make the biggest
impact and hopefully curve what's
happening or, or buck the trend is
at the grassroots level, the cost.
That, that needs to be as
affordable as possible so that
as many people have access to it.
at the younger ages so that kids
are introduced to the game and they
have the ability to play the game.
Liron: But I have a, I have a… I'm,
I'm trying to kind of get through this
idea of clarity, I know personally a U15
family that turned down an MLS Academy.
They turned down, uh, the next year's
contract because, um, they're thinking
about a professional relocation to Europe.
they were worried about MLS NEXT,
m- or MLS making it complicated
with FIFA not releasing the player.
My point is being this, of course
they should do their homework,
is that part of this kind of
idea of a homegrown player list.
So I know that I've seen
parents argue over that, too.
If you look at a homegrown player
list, I'm just telling you about
the confusion parents have.
There's a list of 35 players, I
don't know, per, per region, and 35.
The plus five is from non-MLS,
uh, academies, I guess.
Luis: As long they've made an offer Liron.
Like, you're, you're absolutely right.
I think that's infuriated a lot of
people over the years because they
don't really understand it and it was
private, But like, as, as NEXT evolves,
as MLS academies evolve, as player
development continues to gain momentum,
it then makes people feel a little
safer to m- make some of these changes.
And so it went from 45 plus nine,
the nine was private, to 35 plus
five, and the f- five is now public.
And in order to be on the plus five,
an offer had to be made to the player.
You can't just put a name on there
and they don't know about it.
It's, it's… I- if it's Red
Bull, Red Bull had to have made
an offer to that player in order
for them to be on that list.
If they didn't do it, they
can't, they can't put them
Liron: But the 35 is private.
The list of 35.
Luis: I believe so, yeah.
The, the 35 can only be seen internally,
but it's, it's 35 players that are at
MLS academies and they're protected.
Liron: So why doesn't, why
doesn't that transparency
con- move to the MLS kids too?
Luis: I think that's a little trickier
because at that point now we're talking
about pathway to pro and contracts and
it, parents and agents, and I, I, I
think that becomes a little bit more
tricky, a little bit more sophisticated
Liron: And for that family who,
now back to that family who I know
who want- who wants to relocate
to Europe, MLS NEXT basically has
nothing to do with a 14 or 15-year-old
kid who wants to go play in Europe
Luis: So you're asking me a question
that I, I, I'm not an expert there.
I couldn't, I couldn't answer it.
I'd imagine-- I mean, look, on the
same sense, like when players from
overseas come play here, they have
to go through the ITC process.
In the ITC process, that's
where the federations talk.
That's-- U.S. Soccer handles it.
Uh, Sporting Affairs
internally handles it.
Um, so I couldn't in any way,
shape, or form do justice to that
Liron: So there are
things you don't handle.
Well, that's another scoop I got here.
Matt: All right.
I, I, hold on.
I gotta ask one more.
Liron: I have one too.
Well, you, you don't just get the…
You got the last question before, now
you're getting another last question,
and I'm not gonna have a last question?
Matt: What exactly, what exactly
is the development grant, and
how is it, how is it working?
Luis: To answer to the second part
is, um, it's a work in progress.
I think in some ways it's
been incredibly positive.
The development grant is a way
that we can pay for development.
So it only pertains to clubs in NEXT.
So you could be an academy, you can be
in homegrown, but you have to be in NEXT.
And so let's take a
player like Peyton Miller.
It's a perfect example.
Peyton Miller originally played
for Oakwood in Connecticut.
So part of his development was at Oakwood,
and he had an offer for New England
Revolution to come and participate
in their academy, which he accepted.
And so what happens there is there's
like no immediate compensation, right?
He hasn't signed professionally,
he's in the academy.
But what the development grant does is say
like, "All right, we're tracking this."
So what ended up happening is Peyton
did sign professionally, first team.
And so because of that, there's a
payment that goes to Oakwood because
Peyton signed a first team deal.
When Peyton made his debut,
another payment went to Oakwood.
When he made his 17th appearance,
another payment went to Oakwood.
And when he made his 34th appearance,
a final payment went to Oakwood.
Liron: and that grant, but the
grant doesn't trickle down, right?
It doesn't go to the, to the
non-MLS academy that was before
the kid entered MLS, right?
Matt: they have to be, they
have to be part of Next.
Luis: See, this is where it gets
a little tricky too, and this is
why Answered it, it's evolving.
Uh, it will continue to evolve.
But I mean, we've, we've
easily distributed close to a
million, i- if not more, in, in
development grant money to clubs.
But
If they go to college because
it gets disrupted, they're not
development grant eligible currently.
Again, we're looking at all of it.
We're, we're trying to figure
out how do we get more money to
clubs that are developing players?
How do we re-reward development?
And this is our first crack at it.
It'll continue to evolve.
I think we actually-- we've met on
this recently in the last couple weeks
because we wanna find ways to, to reward
clubs because I don't know if you saw
this past transfer period, we broke
every record, previous MLS record, $370
million were spent on players coming in.
Liron: Look, we're all dads here.
We're parents, okay?
You're not just an incredibly charismatic
guy, Luis, and you're smart and
articulate, but, but you are a dad, and
you have a kid who plays soccer, MLS NEXT.
You have skin in the game, okay?
Be a parent for one second.
Stand with me on that sideline.
Do you sometimes see things that
you go, "Oh, crap, I gotta run to
the office and make changes right
now," or it's never that instinctive?
Luis: I'm gonna get in trouble.
Hopefully his
It's what I, my last question, I
I hope his coach is not listening to this
A couple years ago
We were U13.
I cringed at the lack of playing
time of some of the players
Luis: I cringed.
Liron: U13.
And it's what led to the three times 25.
Luis: So, I think my son has given me
a gift because I'm able to see player
development, MLS NEXT, Major League
Soccer, soccer in this country through a
different lens, and that's as a parent.
And every weekend, I
get to go and live it.
And, and I see it
through different lenses.
I wear different hats.
I'm, I'm someone who
grew up in this country.
I played ODP.
I went to college soccer.
Uh, I played Major League Soccer.
I played for the national team.
So I, I have a lot of these different
experiences, and it is such a privilege
to be able to work each and every day
to try to make it better, but even
more of a privilege to then go on the
weekend and see our, my kids play.
My daughter plays as well.
She's U11.
And there are moments where I'm
like, "You know what? This doesn't
make sense." So substitutions for
U15, they can now reenter in half.
It's because of what I saw.
Uh, U14s, I think
Liron: didn't know that either.
So U15 now can
re-en- Again, argument we had on the
sidelines at, at the game on Saturday.
Matt: Yeah.
They should be able to
Liron: Look at what's happening
Luis: reenter per half.
So if they get subbed out in the
first half, they can come back
in the second half and play.
Again, it's, it's we want them
to play as much as possible.
Liron: know that
Luis: Mm-hmm.
And so, uh, that's something that
I observed and, and we changed.
Reducing the fields.
Like, why are we playing on these massive
fields when the kids are three-nine?
Um, and so yeah, personal, uh, personal
experience has, has allowed me to
look at it from a different way.
But the really great thing is then
I go to the office and there's other
people who are just as passionate
about it, and we talk about it.
It isn't a, a, a one-person decision.
It, it's a lot of people that talk about
it and talk about it and talk about it.
And, and for first team coaches, CSOs,
uh, club presidents, former professionals
to all be involved in that conversation
with the idea of like, how can we make
this better for players in this country?
That feels like a winning combination
Liron: Wow.
Uh, uh, you got two big fans here,
man.
I gotta tell you.
Not
Matt: you.
Uh, thank, thank you for, thank
you for giving us so much time
A boardroom MLS NEXT.
Wow.
Okay, I'm willing to accept that he didn't come back for
our interview style, Matt.
You did a pretty good job with that last question.
You asked him to put himself on the sideline as a
parent, and he told us about watching kids barely
play at U13.
And then he said, I cringe at the lack of playing time of some of the players.
Yeah, we all stood there watching kids wait, including
ours, the warm-up, the whole 1st half, wondering if they're
getting in, wondering how their spirit is.
And here's someone who saw it, felt it as a parent, and you know what?
Could take action to make a difference.
He saw an issue, researched and addressed it.
He said it helped lead to the 3 periods of 25 minutes.
You can't say he is not aspiring for positive change.
But he also admitted that communicating these changes can still be a challenge.
We came into the conversation with questions about rules and transparency.
Yeah, and we have a podcast and are still confused.
Maybe if we wouldn't have the podcast, we'd still
be confused because it doesn't make a difference.
And imagine a parent on the outside trying to figure out this
between work, pickup, and endless expenses.
The high school discussion is a useful example.
Luis explained the league's restriction on simultaneous play,
then made clear that clubs can have their own rules
as long as within the structure of MLS NEXT.
Parents need to ask the right questions before making that decision.
And it still seems to me more clarification could be needed.
Yeah, and there was that mother that asked about her
son moving between Homegrown and Academy,
and he asked the simple question.
Does he love his coach?
Was he playing?
Was he happy?
And Luis told her straight up.
And it sounds like he's in a great development experience.
And that is coming from someone
running the sporting side of MLS NEXT.
And he said, you don't have to be in structured training all the time.
That's worth hearing from someone in his position.
We can get so worried about our kid falling behind that every free
afternoon becomes another session.
before we add one more.
Maybe we should ask whether our kids need more coaching or just time to play.
Yeah, well, thank you again,
Luis Robles, for coming back.
taking the time, our questions seriously, and remembering
who's on the other side of these microphones.
Just 2 parents.
Parents share this episode.
We need to amplify the conversation and make it a little bit more clear.
Share like, subscribe, review comment.
Next time he comes back, I'm going to ask him if he's back because of me or you.
Yeah, you know what?
And just make sure we ask
for the raw data, okay?
This is Chasing the Game.
Youth Soccer in America.