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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Jesse French
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Jesse French, I'm one of the hosts of this conversation. And today I'm joined by a good friend of mine named Nic Howe. Nic has been on the podcast in the past and Nic, thanks for joining us again, for coming back.
Nic Howe
Yeah, Jesse, always good to see you and thanks for having me back.
Jesse French
Yeah, you bet man. As I thought about, and we thought about the conversation we are going to have here today, really there is kind of an inciting incident that really has kind of kicked off this conversation. And so I just want to jump in straight to that. So I think it was, memory serves right. It was two years ago and Nic and I live a few States away. We've been friends for a good number of years. And I think it was in the summer.
And I went out to the mailbox and there was a small, maybe like kind of eight by eight cardboard box addressed to me. And you know, like you do when you actually get real legit non-junk mail, let alone a package in the mail. It's the instant intrigue of like, ⁓ what is this? and Nic's name was on the return address and was not expecting anything. And so like the little, little kid opening a gift I'd run inside, open up the box.
And quick context, Nic and I are each a, uh, how would you describe it? An enjoyer, a connoisseur of baseball caps. Is that a fair way to?
Nic Howe
There's more than three trucker hats in my closet. There we go. Far more. There's a number, I'm not gonna tell what it is, but it may be double digits.
Jesse French
Love it. Yes. I am in the same camp. So yeah, that's a good mysterious way to to say
Nic Howe
I mean, I'm not going to throw you into the bus, but I think I asked you a question recently, Jesse, and it was about your own personal identity. And I was like, for those of you who've met Jesse, like I said, Jesse, if you picture yourself, have like, you pictured yourself, are you wearing a hat? And your answer was like, yeah, I am. Like, so like, it's an integral part of your identity.
Jesse French
I love that you bring that up because that's also for those of you who don't know, like that wonderful example of the question that Nic asked is just a fantastic little snippet of the quality human that Nic is of just thoughtful questions like that. I remember when you asked me that, thought, dad gum, that is, that's some good, good insight. So yes, you're already getting a good flavor of. So yeah, so I opened the hat, I opened the box up and there is a baseball cap.
Nic Howe
back what was in the box.
Jesse French
like a, mesh back trucker hat style ball cap, which I'm instantly very intrigued and excited. It's kind of got like the more of the foam kind of front panel to get real, real nerdy. And on the front panel, there is a logo of this dude with a beard and the phrase dangerous man brewing. And I was like, Ooh, instantly, right? You know this when you see good hats.
You know this when you're like, that's a good hat. Even if, you know, the brand or the name of the place or the company doesn't know anything, you can just be like instantly recognizable. That's a solid hat, which this is one of those. So sufficiently intrigued, excited. And I lift up the hat. There's a small note underneath it. And the gist of the note was from Nic. And he just said, Hey, I know you love hats. I saw this hat and instantly thought like, Jesse needs to have that hat. And then this gets into.
just the ninja wisdom of Nikau. He wrote a few sentences and he said, you know, so this is some of the context was a brewery in his hometown. And he said, yes, this was a good hat from what it looked like. But I thought about this phrase, dangerous man. And he said, there are a lot of men in the world that are dangerous in the ways that they actually are bring harm to the world around him.
but there's also dangerous men out there because of their willingness to confront evil and to confront injustice. And that makes them dangerous in such a positive and life-giving perspective. And so he said, I wanted to get this hat. Yes, it looks good, but it's also, may it be an invitation to be a dangerous man, not that brings harm, but be dangerous because of the ways that injustice is confronted and good is brought. So I'm like sitting there looking at how I'm like.
This is an amazing hat. And I just feel like I got judo moved by my friend Nic into just an invitation to live from that perspective. So I love to wear that hat. It's one of my faves. And I thought today, let's go straight to the source. This is the author of this wonderful invitation and bringing Nic into it and have a conversation around kind of that idea of, of a dangerous man and unpack some of that.
Nic Howe
Yeah, in the immortal words of Darkwing Duck, let's get dangerous. Okay, where are my 90s kids at?
Jesse French
about Jesse. I'm tracking. I'm tracking. Let's get dangerous. So good.
Nic Howe
dangerous. Oh,
yeah. First of all, like, I'm so glad you liked the hat. And I do like riffing on ideas. Let's talk about dangerous men. I that.
Jesse French
Let's do it. So maybe one, one way we can begin to explore this obviously is, is maybe the kind of the initial face value understanding of when we think about dangerous men, right. Dangerous probably for most of us has, has this connotation of negativity, right? Of like, Hey, there is, you know, harmful effects that are brought by someone. And so Nic, I'd love to just wonder with you, like, let's start there from that angle and ask like,
Who is the dangerous man kind of from that negative perspective? And I want to, I'll tee that up because I have a sense of where I don't want to lead the witness.
Nic Howe
Yeah. I think, yeah, I think there's two categories of dangerous that we can name and I don't want to like, I want to get to a third as a little more redemptive. But yeah, I think so. Tony spent a lot of time that like we really is a dangerous man, right? Like he's violent. He's aggressive. Maybe some like macho alpha male, you know, bravado, the guy at the restaurant or the public gathering or the sports game that you're just like, I don't want.
to be next to that guy. don't want to have to get stuck in line next to that guy to like the very like that one. The guy looks like he has like done some aggressive things. So that'd be one category that I think if you're listening to this podcast you're probably not like how do I be more like that or like you're like everyone's ran into that guy that just kind of gives off that vibe of.
don't cross me and I'm probably quick to anger and quick to violence. I think there's also the second that I want to say is probably more and like baked into the archetype. You know, I referenced Darkwing Duck from the nineties. I'm in my forties. So, you know, if you grew up through eighties, nineties action movies, there's also this like dangerous man from like Steven Seagal to Schwarzenegger to like, you know, a good Chuck Norris joke, right? Like, know, it's like this super tough guy, right? Like the zoom it like,
Jesse French
Let's hear one. What's your favorite?
Nic Howe
You know Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, No, when he does it, he's pushing the earth down.
Jesse French
did not know that.
Yes, yes. Did you know what Chuck Norris's cowboy boots are made of?
Nic Howe
No, I haven't heard this one.
Jesse French
They're made out of cowboys.
Nic Howe
Oof, yeah. Do you know what's underneath Chuck Norris's beard? It's another fist. The one I heard is just ridiculous. I love these ones. It was like, do you know that the reason Chuck Norris exists is because one day Chuck Norris roundhouse kicked a man so hard that that man flew back in time and fell in love with Chuck Norris's mom. That's what you had to think about a little bit.
Jesse French
No.
It's like the, yeah, the trippy metaphysical. Yeah.
Nic Howe
Right. like, you know, watching like Arnold Schwarzenegger Commando or like an action flicker, like, like there could be this baked in of like to be a man is to be this like, he's deadly or James Bond. Like he knows how to kill a man with just a, you know, a spoon or like all these kind of just very, again, maybe even if like he's doing it for good or, know, he's only doing it to the bad guys, quote unquote. Like that's, think sometimes we can get conjured this idea of like a dangerous man. And I think so the magical way.
Jesse French
type kind of, right? Like rogue.
Nic Howe
Yeah, so maybe we talk about that little bit like again if you're listening this podcast Don't be violent. Don't go around being the command like having to like Like Fairly intuitive, but I do think there's a level that men can venture into being dangerous that is actually that is harmful And I think I just put it this way. I think I think men who are stuck in passivity are very dangerous men
Jesse French
7-elevens like bright. Fairly intuitive.
Yes. Okay. I'm, I'm glad you went there. because that describe, I want to hear why that's the case, but I want to hear even first, like put some meat on potentially what that life of passivity might look like again, kind of planning with a broad brush, but describe a little bit of that.
Nic Howe
Yeah,
I think I don't think the world needs more nice guys. Like I know RP has talked about this a lot around like being a restorative man and I don't want this to come across as judgmental because I think every man has a story. There's a reason why they maybe don't take action. But what I would say is like the man who isn't stopping to do more than just while I show up.
I work my job. I provide for my family. That was my dad's story, right? I think my dad grew up with that very big message of if you're a father, you provide and in some ways both leaned into that because that's what he was taught. And there was seasons of my childhood where he was working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. I'd see him, you know, on weekends basically, because he's coming home after I go to bed and he's already out to work by the time I get up and he's just tired on the weekend that mixed with. So I think that like not engaging.
your family, not engaging your marriage, not engaging your kids. I think the needles really shifted that way. I think you go even read a lot of like modern surveys. think millennial dads are spending, it's, was it like 30, 40, 50? I can't remember that. It was like a significantly higher amount of time with their kids. But I think that the reason that you see that swing is because I think a lot of guys grew up seeing more of that detached. Your dad maybe wasn't like super violent or angry.
Maybe he was, but like he just was kind of there.
Jesse French
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nic Howe
And I think the danger there is men who say like, think the world is better when men show up. I know that's one of the big tenants of like restoration projects. So yeah.
Jesse French
Yeah.
And I think it's really good that you bring that up, right? Because I think what you're getting at is from the outside, the passive man, like the exterior of that probably looks fairly positive or could look positive, right? I'm like, Hey, I, I'm doing the right things. Like providing for my family. You know, I show up to their soccer game. I do that. I'm not robbing seven 11s. I'm not being unfavorable in my marriage. Like, like those sort of main big categories are like, yes, those boxes are being checked.
But within that, right? I feel like that word passive is it's getting at like, what is the motivation for this? And like, is it done just to simply like, this is the minimum that's expected or are they actually showing up as you said, to the relationships with, uh, with their kids, with those closest around them and bringing their whole selves to that? Like that, I think there's such a big divide there. And when, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, like what is the harm?
that is brought when we are passive. Like why is that dangerous? Again, viewing it through like, yeah, maybe on the exterior it looks positive. We're not Chuck, know, Steven Seagal doing terrible things, but why is sort of that quiet resignation of passivity, was it actually harmful and cased in the language of being dangerous?
Nic Howe
Yeah, so one I think of like the teachings of Jesus when he spoke on the parable of the guy that just had a talent and he just went and buried it. And I think the danger is it's an assumption that what you do doesn't matter. So in other words, if I'm just going, I'm not I'm not doing anything really bad. I'm not imploding my marriage through an affair. I'm not reeling in some big addiction. I am not.
You know, I'm a fairly maybe calm and emotionally tempered man, pleasant to be around, can chit chat, can shoot the breeze, but never stops to think like, hey, I'm responsible for engaging my world, whether that's my kids, my marriage, the people around me. It's this idea of if we are all sons of God, that there is something that is also like,
a God given created responsibility from Adam in the beginning. Adam, God wasn't like, all right, Adam, have fun in the garden. It's like, Hey, go name, go create, go, go be in this world. It makes me think of the King's speech, the really great movie. Right. So part of that story is, and you're have to help me with names because I was escaping me, but like the guy who becomes King King Phil.
Jesse French
Sure, maybe I should tell-
Nic Howe
All your history buffs can waggle your finger at me right now. But he had an older brother who was also a prince and he abdicates the throne. It's not something we hear about a lot, but like you kind of get a snapshot, at least to the movie, that his older brother who would have been next in line to be king and he sees things kind of going towards war and responsibility. And there's kind of a scene where he's like, look, I kind of like being a prince with all the perks of having money and being able to go to parties and enjoy life.
That's what I'm in it for. And he abdicates like, and I think it is dangerous in a negative way when men are abdicating like their God given goodness to show up in the world. That doesn't mean everyone needs to go like, you know, have a banner on a hill. I think that's going to look differently. And I think we could talk about that in a little bit, because I think it also can be a lot more subtle than having to be the Christian version of again, your Christian Chuck Norris that I'm sitting there like, you know, storming the gates of hell metaphorically.
But to not be aware that you have a role to play in the redemption of the world, think is dangerous to assume. Yeah.
Jesse French
So many good pieces of that. I love that you brought that, the example from the King's speech and even, you know, in that example are stating like his unwillingness to take the throne that is his, right? Because like it ties back wonderfully. Like you said earlier, the fact that if we believe that we are sons of God, right? That the natural like byproduct of that is that there is like, you can go the royalty metaphor, like it fits, right? Like we are actually a son of the King.
which is most true. And because of that, like your words of, have God given responsibility to bring our goodness in the unique ways that he has gifted with us. Like it is the implication that you, by being born, by being present, by being an image bearer of God, bring goodness and uniqueness and creativity and strength and tenderness that only you bring. And so to not take that throne, to use that language, to not accept that, to not engage that fundamental fact,
is to bring harm to those around you by depriving, you know, the rest of the world, the rest of your community from that experience of who God is.
Nic Howe
Right, like I think we talk in terms of strength and power like and kingship like a bad king could be a tyrant, a dictator, right? Or like my rule is law, I'm going to crush my people for my benefit, right? That's kind of the definition of it. Like I'm using all my strength to serve me and then my people suffer, my kingdom suffers. If you go from whether it's a fantasy book or history or modern day, like a tyrant is using the strength in and over. Like, and that's what we talked about, like a dangerous man who's being
controlling, abusive, manipulative, like that people live in fear of him. Like that's really easy to see. I think what's less easy to see is the other end of it's almost like two poles, of unhealth being a tyrants one pole, but not engaging like your goodness and showing up like the abdication like abdicating is also equally damaging and dangerous.
Jesse French
Yeah. Nic, what would you say, like, just spend a couple seconds talking about the harm that that brings. Like who pays that cost? And specifically when there is abdication, when there is disengagement from the presence that, that men are rightly called to offer, when that doesn't happen, what is the cost of that? Who bears that?
Nic Howe
I have yet to meet a human, and specifically a lot of men, who if they were asked, are there times in your life where a voice of encouragement, strength, empathy, compassion, someone who showed up and saw you and engaged that, whatever that moment needed, whether it was encouragement, you've got this, whether it was compassion and softness, I have yet to meet a man who doesn't have a story of going.
a dad, a brother, somebody showing up in my life either profoundly impacted me or like it didn't because there was no one in the silence to confirm. think evil is really good at leading us to a conclusion. Those conclusions are rarely like true. So I mean, I could speak to my own life, but I would just say this, you're listening to this, like anytime you've wrestled with your own insecurities, ask yourself like how important would it have been to have a safe, wise and loving and kind voice to have stepped into whatever that moment is for you.
And when there wasn't that, think that is my evidence of how dangerous not engaging and not working on being, like showing up in your life. Yeah.
Jesse French
Yeah, because like it's really, really good language there, right? When there is not that presence and that showing up those around you, the trajectory towards believing a lie becomes that much easier, right? Like presence of evil to convince us of a story, anything other than we are beloved son or beloved daughter, right? When there is the absence of presence, the absence of voice, like that conclusion of I am not a beloved son.
or beloved daughter, that interpretation just becomes so much easier to arrive to. Nic, I want to get to some of the unpacking of kind of like the third archetype that you talked about of the dangerous man that is bringing goodness in life because of how he shows up. But what words or maybe what invitation would you have, I would say to all of us who find ourselves at points of abdicating our own throne, of diminishing
the goodness that we bring and choosing to live in that place of passivity. And I do mean that like that's, that's not, Hey, there's some of us that have it right. And some of us, you know, or, know, that have it wrong. think that all of us fit into that camp at times. what would some of your invitation be to those that find those words resonate as you talk about it.
Nic Howe
So even just reflecting on that, think is a movement towards this good version of dangerous. To grow in the ability to be honest with yourself is a really, really good first step. And I'm with you there too. It's not like, I figured out how to be an active, engaged man and all you other guys out there should jump in my boat. I'm under no pretenses. But to be honest to go, ⁓ yeah, I haven't been shown up there lately. OK. And I think with
kindness, not condemnation, because this could easily again turn into like a Christian version of I need to go get it done and show up and it could be a burden that would crush. So I think there's both kindness. Yeah, I always go back to Fred Rogers. He said, I love who you are right where you are just as you are and I love you who you are becoming. So my invitation would be if that rumble something can you kind of step towards something that feels it feels dangerous to like, I don't like I don't want to think about like, we're how I'm showing up.
And so with kindness and a little courage, could you starting to talk with your close buddies, talk to with somebody opening up, even just with yourself like, hey, where am I at on this level? That's like kind and not like this measuring stick. That's what I'd offer is even just asking yourself the question I think puts you on the path of going, yeah, you're allowed to start over. You're allowed to reset. You're allowed to recalibrate. I think it is good and dangerous when they're going, hey, wait a second.
Jesse French
A w-
Nic Howe
That's drifting or that's drifted a long time. Hey, let's let's do something about that
Jesse French
Yeah.
Yeah. Which I think that makes a ton of sense. And I think that's a great dovetail into some of the exploration of like, who is the dangerous man that is dangerous because of the goodness that he brings. And we'd love to hear some of your thoughts on that. And I love that you just talked about this invitation towards kindness because we're exploring this not out of the posture of like, get your crap together and get over here on this side of it. Like, yes, the invitation I think is to this because of the goodness it brings.
But the motivation is not like, Hey, just do better and try harder and stop screwing up. Right. And so like that awareness of, Hey, where have I not been showing up and can that be engaged through this posture of kindness? That's how I'd love to explore some of this piece. Not in the, need to be dangerous men in the good way and get your act together. The vein that we want to. Yeah.
Nic Howe
Yeah
So I think honestly in me lives a fantasy, Jesse, of that moment where I like say the really bold thing and whatever it is like, right? Like, and you know, whatever hundreds of movies or shows where like that brave hero gets up and he defies like the evil empire, the evil emperor, whatever evil is. And you're like, yes, it's like a rousing speech or he chooses to like push in. There's a reason I think that calls to us. I think all of us have that part of like, I want to be that guy that like
chooses danger or choose, know, you know, me, I'm a Lord of the Rings fan. So like Aragorn is like for Frodo, right? And he like tears off with his sword, like, we all want that. But I think for every one moment where maybe it is the right moment for like, you're with your family, you're with some friends. And it's that like moment of like, this is really important to be very maybe prophetic. I think there are hundreds of moments where being dangerous maybe is actually a little more subtle. And so I'd take big to that. Like, I'll give examples.
I think it's a dangerous man. When I say dangerous, he's pushing against where evil would love to like slide us into disconnection from who we are, disconnection with the world, disconnection from who God intended us to be. The dangerous man is the one that maybe actually takes all his PTO and like is dangerous to say like, I want to spend time with family and friends and not taking PTO to just go on the golf course. like dangerous is the man who says, Hey, sorry, like my phone's off because I'm with my family.
I think like dangerous is the man who volunteers to just, you know, fill boxes of food. Dangerous is the man who's got space to take a good buddy out for a coffee or a beer and just say like, Hey, what's really going on? Dangerous is the man who's not out to hunt and not out to get and not out to judge or not out to preach, but knows those moments where it's like, things start feeling awkward and scary about one or two more questions deeper.
Like I've had, you've been one of those men for me, Jesse, where it's like, you didn't balk at my like, how are things? Good. you know, hanging in there. I'm busy. And like dangerous to the status quo, to the unhealthy status quo is the man who's going, yeah, I'm going to ask a little deeper again, not to be cock of the walk, not to be super like, look how cool I am. But that, those would be some snapshots of, go, those are dangerous men who are willing to disrupt the status quo.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I think in those examples, and you said it right, like the status quo of disconnection, I would add like the status quo of self-sufficiency, the status quo of independence, right? That are just baked into the inertia of how life goes. Those examples, we just gave our wonderful disruptions to that, right? Two, ultimately I believe like
God's intention for flourishing, like the disruptions to experience more of the kingdom of Jesus invites us to, right?
Nic Howe
Yeah, I love that what you just said like dangerous is the man that says I need help. Yeah Yeah, like you talk about like there I'm not like I got to figure this out on my own and go like a danger man. That's like hey, I'm stuck Hey, I'm not in a good place. Hey, I need help
Jesse French
Mm-hmm. Which I think that's getting at one of, I think one of the pieces of the dangerous man is this, not the fact at all that his, his life is always sunny and everything is going right. Actually, it's dangerous. is the man who has a sense of what is true in his life. Like whether it is, I need help or even what you said a second ago of I have the awareness to be able to say, I've checked out here. Like I am not showing up here.
And there is a passivity and a disengagement here. And I'm willing to reflect and look honestly in my life enough to articulate that. it isn't just flying by under my radar, right? Like that, that internal is.
Nic Howe
As you say that it's Maybe like something about a good dangerous man is a man who is growing more and more knowing who he is Because my version of being less dangerous is I will go the way the wind is blowing I can pretty be that's right like we're not going deep and I'm not going deep the ones like it's like you can just blend in Church group, know work group, you know sports group key, know, whatever group and I think the man who knows more and more who he is I think it's this is like
Dangerous is the man who stays true to himself even when it gets awkward.
Jesse French
Yeah
Nic Howe
Yeah.
And it's like, again, he doesn't have to be a jerk about it. But it's this like this whole conversation be really cool if no one just said anything. It's the guy just like, yeah, I don't know. Just like where that goes from there.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think what you're describing is the disruption, Of. Comfortability of the easy, just like fitting in, right? How do the sense of this is the reality of an honest truth of like how I am and where I am and willing to risk some of that discomfort to risk some of that awkwardness in pursuit of the connection. Because out of that, right? I think when that connection is offered, Nic, like just follow that kind of that line of thought for a second.
Why is that connected to our ability to bring our goodness to the world?
Nic Howe
That's a question. have to think about it. I think you were saying it earlier, Jesse, like if goodness isn't cookie cutter, right? It's like who you are, who Jesse French is, who Nic Howe is, who each man and human being, man, woman, child is, brings a unique expression of the image of God, of the goodness of God.
If I'm not like continue to discover who that is, and that's a beautiful thing is like we never get to the bottom of like discovering who we are or who God is. That's the cool thing. It's not like we just, oh, I know who God is. I know who I am. But like this growing deepening of who we are, we're able to bring more of that uniqueness to who we are. Like I'm so glad it doesn't look like one specific prototype of being a dangerous man. Like again, a dangerous man might be the guy who
starts his blog or could be the guy who invites his friend and it could be the guy who paints because he wants to paint and it could be the guy who decides to plant a garden in his backyard. Like again, I think there's goodness all over those things. There's just going what feels scary and risky. And this goes back to you and I have talked about like the art of war, which we don't have time to get into, but like that there is something about evil that wants to push back against people being who they're put on this earth to be.
Yes. So I think the more we're connected to that, that relates in like more, not just vanilla, wow goodness, but like the specificness of it. Yeah.
Jesse French
Yes. I might have used this quote before in another episode and if I did like you and I are over apologizers, I'm not going to apologize for it because it's really good. Here we go. We're not going to hedge, but I think to that point, there's just this dandy quote from Thomas Merton that I want to read. He says this, says, many poets are not poets for the same reason that many religious men are not saints. They never succeed in being themselves.
Nic Howe
So we're out.
Jesse French
They never get around to being the particular poet or the particular monk they are intended to be by God. They never become the man or the artist who is called for by all the circumstances of their individual lives. They waste their years in vain efforts to be some other poet, some other saint. They wear out their minds and bodies in a hopeless endeavor to have someone else's experiences or write someone else's poems.
Like I think what he's, he's saying, right, is dangerous is the man who is in pursuit of the monk, the poet that is called for by all of the circumstances of their individual lives. Just what you said that is not after the cookie cutter prototype of this is who is expected to be, but it's in the particularity of how God made them and in pursuit of that dangerous is that man who is going hard after that.
Nic Howe
Well said.
Jesse French
said. Nic, as we wrap up, where has your mind settled? What words might you want to leave us as we come to the end of this conversation? Yeah.
Nic Howe
I'll take your Merton and I'll offer up some CS Lewis from the Chronicles of Narnia. right? And they get to the end and the kids are asking like, hey, like, is Aslan gonna be around all the time? And Mr. Beaver goes, no, like he'll be here or he won't. Like, and he says, he's not a tame lion. And so there's something about us being made in the image of God and following after Jesus that is not chaotic, but it's the like that Jesus is not safe, but he's good, if you could put it that way.
we could unpack that more later time, that, man, would that be said of me that like, let me say he's not safe, but we're not talking, but it's like the, he's not passive, right? That engaging Mormon that it's like, you're pursuing a God who often wants to break down boxes and categories of what is conventionally accepted for the sake of good. And like, man, like,
I want that like I want that in my marriage. I want that with like my girl so easy to talk about and even as we go for I'm thinking about like You know what? When I have all the dishes to do and things and it's easy to tell my three-year-old like who wants to play with me like just a sec just a sec like Maybe it is dangerous to go You know what dishes will get done eventually and like to drop and get on the ground and play with her like Is the most dangerous move I can make later on today, so I'll just leave it with that
like.
Jesse French
I love it. Nic, thank you. Thanks for your insight, for your invitation and your wisdom. Grateful for you, man. Thanks for joining us today. I see. All right. See you next time.
Nic Howe
Thanks, Jesse.