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Welcome to Travel Buddy,
presented by Switchfly.
In this podcast, we talk about all
things travel, rewards, and loyalty.
Let's get to it.
Brandon Giella: So when we think about
travel, there is a soul of travel.
There is a reason why we travel,
but in a metrics obsessed industry
that travel and loyalty can be how
do we protect that soul of travel?
So that's what we're talking about today
and with me today is special guest.
VP of Engineering
operations at Switch Fly.
Carrie Griffin, welcome Carrie.
Tell us a little bit about yourself
and why you have been brought in
to ask or to answer this question.
Kerry Griffing: Well,
thanks for having me.
Um, yeah, the soul of travel is
something I love to talk about.
Um, in my eighth grade yearbook, um,
it asks you, what are you gonna do?
In the future and my answer
then was to be a travel agent.
So I have been
dreaming of travel, thinking of travel,
always wanting to be a part of travel.
Um, my whole life and when I started
in travel, it looked very different.
Um.
Computers were very basic and they were,
they were, you know, old school booking,
but there were still paper tickets
and it wasn't about numbers so much.
And, uh, there, there reached
a point in my career where, um.
A really great leader that I had said,
if you want to stay in this industry,
you have to understand technology
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
Kerry Griffing: or you need to pivot it.
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
Kerry Griffing: And
I travel was my thing, so
I wanted to stay, so I, I.
Pivoted into tech and with tech,
uh, I believe data comes right?
Everything's, you know, things
become about efficiency and, um,
delivery and, and that's great.
And in the beginning it was new
for me, so it was super exciting.
But there definitely came
a day that I was like.
The beauty of travel is a little
lost in these, uh, tables and
graphs and spreadsheets, so.
Brandon Giella: I want to
dive into this so hard.
So there's two, there's two aspects
of, and this is true for any industry.
Where you've got this, I mean, this
is true for, for marketing or the
creative arts, especially now with AI
where robots can do so many different
things, incredible creative things.
Um, and so you've got this,
this craftsmanship, this beauty,
this, this human spirit that is
wild and wondrous and creative.
And then you've got this data
technology, quantitative edge.
That is, like you said about productivity,
efficiency, throughput, volume,
scale, however you wanna define that.
You've got this tension.
Both things are beautiful
in their own way.
Both things are necessary.
An artist can't sit down and create
art without being paid, without having
payment processing, without understand,
you know, I mean, there's so many things
that go into it that are quantitative.
Um.
So I wanna start with, before we dive into
the data side of, of travel now and the
tech and the quantitative edge, I want to
talk first about when you think about the
beautiful soul, human spirit of travel,
about experiences, describe that for me.
Like why, what motivates you to love
travel to begin with and, and how
would you define the soul of travel?
Kerry Griffing: I think the soul
of travel is a very personal
Brandon Giella: Mm
Kerry Griffing: thing.
It's gonna mean something
different to everyone.
Um, for me it is about curiosity.
Um,
I, I love to see and experience what,
what other people are doing and
thinking and why they think that way.
And you can read a book.
And back in my day there were
encyclopedias that were very dated, you
know, but we didn't bel know that then.
But being able to go somewhere and
smell it and touch it and feel it
and see it, um, it just opens up
the mind in a way that I don't think that.
Uh, you can get just by hearing
someone else's experience.
I mean, I think it's great to be able
to share those things, but to be able
to do it yourself is, for me, the
biggest sense of making memories,
expanding the mind, like just to me,
that's what brings me joy and, um.
I have never found a replacement for that.
And it could be as simple as going to a,
a, a new city in the state that I live
in, or a country that has completely
different culture and customs and food.
You can find magic anywhere
Brandon Giella: Where's your
favorite place you've ever traveled?
Kerry Griffing: so.
Um, my grandparents are, they
moved to the US from Ireland, and,
um, when I was a kid, I, um, my
mom used to always talk about it.
She was born in New York and when
I, I was eight, I gave her, um.
A box from the department store
with all the money in my piggy
bank, which was a lot of change
and, you know, singles and a note.
And I said, uh, I don't have
enough money now, but one day I
will and I'll take you to Ireland.
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
Kerry Griffing: And um, when I was
an adult, I was able to take my mom.
To Ireland and we went to the town
that my grandfather was from, and he
had already passed away at that point.
And my mom, she like, we go into this
pub and she had all these old photos.
I'm like, what are you doing?
And she, she was like,
maybe someone knows.
And I'm like, mom, they're not gonna know.
And she pulled them out and she
talked to the bartender and he was
like, oh, that's the Kelly family.
And they're like, they own them,
the mechanic down the street.
And um, he ended up calling
them and we, they came to the
pub and we were able to go to.
Where my grandfather there, they were
cousins, so it was, uh, their father's
brother and we got to meet them.
And that was just from going,
that wasn't a planned thing.
It was planned to go to the town.
It was not planned 'cause
we didn't have any contact.
And, um, to be able to experience
that with my mom and to see her, um.
The joy that brought her, it
it, that's my favorite memory.
Brandon Giella: That
is the soul of travel.
I love that.
That's a beautiful story.
Kerry Griffin: Yeah, it was, it was magic.
Brandon Giella: So.
I wanna shift gears toward the
quantitative side of travel.
What is it about the quantitative
side of travel in the industry
itself that can warp or distort
that experience that you had?
Does that make sense?
Like, like that's the soul of why we do
this and there's something that gets lost.
Trying to make that a
business, which is not wrong.
We all, we have to pay for fuel, we have
to pay for tickets, people to help you.
Like, there's all of that.
But what is it that gets lost
in that, um, that process?
Kerry Griffing: Um, um, I think there's
a lot of things, I think though,
at a high, at the highest level.
Um.
When people start talking about
metrics, it almost becomes a race
and, you know, to, to be more
productive, to improve metrics, right?
Um, and when you start thinking that
way and having that conversation,
my experience has been that.
The why of what you're
doing changes the why.
Um, you're doing something is to
deliver faster, to deliver better.
Um, and sometimes people forget the
real why is the customer experience, um.
I I I IDI I don't
disagree with technology.
In fact, I live it every day.
I love it.
Um, and I also believe in efficiency.
But I also think we should be asking
ourselves throughout the day, how
will this impact the traveler?
How can we make the traveler's
experience more efficient and
better so they have more time?
To focus on the soul, the
easier the booking changing
check-in all of that can be.
There is more time in the travelers day to
have the magical moments, the new moments
to taste the food, to smell things.
Um, so I think we.
We forget to think about.
At the end of the day, our traveler is
the reason why we're doing this, to open
up time for them to enjoy the travel.
Brandon Giella: hmm.
When I think about this, um.
This concept, I, a word comes
to mind, uh, of stewardship.
that word comes to mind because you're,
you as a, as a travel executive,
somebody who is, uh, uh, you know,
a leader in this space, has some
influence about how it's shaped in,
in whatever way that looks like.
You're a stewarding, this
traveler's experience, this
kind, this very precious thing.
And in order to do that
well, to be a wise steward.
You do have to think about,
okay, how much does this cost?
What's the timeline?
How can we make this better?
How can we make this more efficient?
Because that's, that's part of wisdom,
that's part of, part of our, our role.
But, um, but it, it can be overdone
where it's focused on that.
And there's this great book I
was, I've pulled out, um, when
thinking about this outline.
It's called The Tyranny of Metrics.
By Jerry Mueller and he talks about how,
and he goes through several different
industries, education, healthcare, and
so on, where there's this standard that's
set to try to improve the efficiency
or improve the scale or, or whatever.
And um, by setting that standard.
Teachers or the healthcare
professionals start to grade or be,
be graded by that standard rather
than the patient experience or the
steward, the student's experience.
And, and then the actual student
experience or the patient experience
gets ruined by that standard.
So there's this interplay, but I have to
say that I, there's, there's something
else that comes up for me, which is, um.
In a financial context, uh, there's
this, this great book called Narrative
in Numbers by Os de Moin, who is
a, a, a finance professor at, um,
n NYU Stern School of Business.
And he's like a valuation expert, so
he's like the quantitative king, but he's
got this book, uh, called Narrative in
Numbers to say that, uh, valuation in,
in these, these quant side of finance is
heavily shaped by the story, the art, the
narrative, and that financial markets.
Take place with that.
So you have financial experts are, you
know, known for being quantitative.
They live in spreadsheets and financial
models, and I think it's like one of
the most intellectually demanding.
Uh, industries out there and,
but it's also super creative.
It's a very, very creative industry, even
though it's heavily quantitative and I
would suspect engineering and travel is as
well, that it's very, very quantitative,
but there's a lot of creativity and,
and beauty and narrative that comes
in with that, as you just described.
So where I want to go with
this is where do you think that
the industry started to lose?
Call it the soul of travel, the
beauty and the creativity, and
started to become more metrics driven.
Was there a moment in time or in, you
know, the trends of technology unfolding
that you started to really feel that,
or sense that maybe when your mentor was
like, Hey, you should focus on tech 'cause
that's where the industry's going, is
that, does that track with kind of this
broader trend in the industry as well?
Kerry Griffing: So travel has always
had, um, thin margins, so I do
believe that there's always been
kind of a, a watch on that, but
there is.
There was definitely a massive shift
after nine 11 you know, before nine
11 we didn't have, uh, TSA, uh,
you could go to the gate, right?
Um, and then we had to, you know,
planes Airlines lost a lot of money.
They, they had to park a lot of
planes and when they came back,
they started to run full, right?
There were, before nine 11, there
were a lot of times you would get
on a plane and it was half full,
three quarters full because there
were so many flights and, um.
And then mar margins shrunk even more.
And then prices started to go up.
You know, we have all these
fees now that, that help offset
some of the cost of security.
And I do think that was at the
time, you know, technology had come
in a few years before that and it,
everything kind of came together.
Uh, I, I don't have, like,
this is the moment of time.
I can say from my experience,
that's definitely the shift.
Um, how pe we marketed things
in travel changed after that.
Um, the landscape of those
things changed and I think it.
Everybody was kind of like, how do we
keep this a strong, viable industry,
um, without, you know, losing money
Brandon Giella: Yeah.
Kerry Griffing: and, and with the
advancements of technology, um.
I think the focus just re
it became a race, right?
You had different OTAs, you
had, uh, suppliers, whether
airline, hotel, what have you.
Having, you know, and improving their
websites and, and my dream as a kid of
becoming a travel agent and you know,
those, all of those went away, right?
And it.
It really changed and it be, and
technology definitely was a race.
People were watching who was doing what?
Expedia's doing this.
Travelocity is doing that.
Orbits is doing this.
Oh, we gotta beat him to the punch.
So the focus became fast
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
Kerry Griffing: to be.
Yeah, to be, I don't know if it would
be cheap, but it would be to win, to
come out with the best product quick.
Um, so you could, you
could still be a pioneer.
Um,
and I think there were
times that, uh, you stopped.
You didn't have time to
think about the soul.
Brandon Giella: This is so calming for me.
This is like a therapy session.
Thank you.
Um.
'cause, 'cause I, I, I, we've, we've
talked about, um, things that have
been hard in our travel experiences
on the show before I told this
story, this is a recent story.
Last time I traveled.
uh, two months ago where I had a baby.
I have a baby, and it was an infant in
lap and they said we couldn't have an
infant in lap in our particular seat on
the right side of the plane because it
would imbalance this particular aircraft.
And I'm like, I don't know that
when I'm picking these seats.
I have no idea.
And so they had to shuffle us all around.
My 3-year-old was like 15.
Rows ahead of us.
And then, you know, we had our baby and
my wife and I were split up and it was
just a total mess because of the, IM,
the, the, the balance of the aircraft
was off because of a 17 pound baby.
So it was like these, this weird
experience for me that I think was
because of the model or, or the,
the spreadsheet or the computer
system or whatever had just like.
It calculated something about
our particular seats and just,
and ruined our experience.
In my opinion.
We had to sit at the, at the kiosk
for like almost an hour to work
this out, to get our seats back.
Anyway, I say all that to say this is
really important and this is personal
for people's travel experiences, but also
the business, the aircraft has to fly.
It has to be efficient,
it's gotta be profitable.
All of that makes sense.
It's just this balance.
I'm wondering from your perspective, if.
You think AI is going to be better
or worse for, uh, protecting the
soul of travel or getting back
to this traveler's experience?
Like, like do you think it's gonna
help us get back there, or what?
Kerry Griffing: Uh, I hope so.
Because I don't think we have a choice.
Right.
Um, you know, I think of this, like
I'd mentioned, I was, you know,
in travel when we still had paper
tickets and when airlines were
moving to electronic tickets, uh.
Some people are slower to change, right?
They didn't trust it.
They liked having the, the
cardboard in their hand.
Um,
Brandon Giella: that last
time I was in the airport.
They were like, I just like
having the paper ticket.
Kerry Griffing: yeah.
And I think there would, there's
something, you know, you have some
people who are slower and you have some
people who are like, yeah, let's go.
So.
But it happened, right?
Like they moved to electronic tickets and
for a while you had an option for paper.
And then basically they said, you know,
no longer, this is no longer an option
for them to give you a paper ticket.
Now, could you print yours today?
Yes, but it's still an electronic ticket.
Um, and that's kind of how I think of.
F ai, it's happening.
It's whether you like it or
not, it, um, it's gonna, it's
going to, it's, it's happening.
It's happened, you know, and
it's just gonna keep evolving.
Um, so I think you have to
embrace it and try to, uh.
See the good, right?
I, and my hope is just like, I would like
to make the traveler logistical experience
better with technology to free them up to
enjoy more of the the travel experience.
I hope that AI.
Is also beneficial in that way.
I think there's a lot of great
things that it can do to, um,
make things more efficient.
Um,
I like, uh, humans.
Uh, I really like human connection.
Uh, I come to an office every day,
uh, because I like to see people.
Um, it is, uh, just part
of what feeds my soul.
So do I have, um, little fears of like
taking away, making things so automated
that you no longer have that connection?
Sure, I do.
Um, but I also am hopeful that.
It makes some things more
efficient and smoother, um, so
that the human connection, people
have more time for that, right?
Everybody's busy.
Everyone I talk to is
so busy and it's like.
Brandon Giella: Yeah.
Kerry Griffing: Maybe this will allow
people to be a little less busy and be
able to have the cup of coffee and chat.
Um, I, I also think for your
experience, uh, on the, the plane,
I think part of thinking about how.
The soul of travel is, is
thinking about how many different
kinds of travelers there are.
There are some travelers
who travel for work.
They, they know the steps, they know
everything like the back of their hand.
There are some people who might
travel once every five years.
And things change quickly,
and it can be daunting.
And I, I don't want it to be daunting.
I want it to be joyful, even if it's, you
know, like I don't want people to walk in
and be like, oh my gosh, I'm overwhelmed.
And then that, that to me sucks
part of the soul of travel.
So how can we just make
all of it more enjoyable?
Brandon Giella: I love that you have
this emphasis on the human spirit and
the soul of travel, and you're the VP of
engineering operations at a tech company.
I just think that's so great.
Uh, I, I think it's so important
that balance is so important.
Yes, I agree.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Amen.
Amen.
I love it.
I love it.
Okay, so imagine you are queen over
the entire travel industry and you can
write a dictum about what is going to
happen to recoup the soul of travel.
What would be your advice
or your, your campaign?
Or your positions that you would
take that you think would, would
really help balance these two worlds.
Kerry Griffing: Wow,
that is some question.
Um, I.
I think that making travel, uh,
more accessible.
Two people.
I, I actually believe travel is completely
accessible, uh, depe, no matter what
kind of economic, uh, disability pieces
that people might be held back from,
uh, I don't think they know that though.
I think there are, um, people who
think, oh, it's so expensive.
Oh, you know, I, I can't do that.
It's, it's out, it's
Brandon Giella: Yeah.
Kerry Griffing: not for me.
Or, um, I have a disability
and it's too hard.
There are a lot of.
Programs and things that make it
easier when you get to an airport
to get from point A to point B,
but to me that is where we can make
those resources easier to find.
Uh, so that people, more
people can experience it.
I definitely think there
in travel there are, um,
people who
are too overwhelmed by the whole
process.
Um.
And, but I really think it's
because they haven't tried.
Right?
It becomes too daunting, like, oh,
I can't, oh, you want me to go to
New York City and get on a subway?
Like I've never done public
transportation before.
Brandon Giella: mm.
Kerry Griffing: And it's, it's not that.
Yes, it's a lot of
people, it can be crowded.
You have to read signs, but if you.
Give yourself some time, and you
look around, I, I, I a hundred
percent know someone would help you.
You just gotta take that
leap, and once you do it once,
you'll want to do it again.
Other things won't seem so scary.
Brandon Giella: I'm laughing 'cause it
makes me think of, um, I, I'm flying
tomorrow to Florida for spring break.
I have a three-year-old
and a 10 month old.
And when I first started traveling
with two kids, I was like, oh my
gosh, I'm never gonna do this again.
But you get, you do get the hang of it.
It is a little daunting, but
you take it one step at a time.
It's, it's like parenting, I guess.
I don't know.
You just, you just jump in.
It's gonna be okay.
It doesn't mean you have to like, fly to
Italy and go on a vineyard or whatever.
Like, there are, there's a lot
of different things that you
can do when you think of travel.
It doesn't have to be
this exotic location, you
Kerry Griffing: Yeah, and, and
you don't even have to get on
a plane if you don't want to.
Brandon Giella: Yeah, that's true.
Kerry Griffing: I mean,
you can travel by land.
Brandon Giella: Yes, that is true.
Kerry Griffing: Or boat.
Brandon Giella: Yeah, I haven't.
Been on a boat in a long time.
Yeah.
No, I, I totally agree.
I totally agree.
Um, last question for you.
Um, what do you hope that the travel
industry never loses as it continues
to evolve, especially in the age of.
AI
Kerry Griffing: I, I hope it doesn't, um.
Lose the human connection.
Right?
And that could be anything from
having a person at the airport
help the new traveler, right?
Uh, know what they're supposed to do.
Or, um, a customer service
agent on the phone.
Um.
I also think like being able to
connect with other people about.
It.
I think, you know, to me, like sharing
reviews or photos and things like
that, that's all technology these days.
That also opens up people's minds
to be able to be like, oh, I didn't
know you could do that there.
Right.
It gives more options and helps
people like do things they might
not have ever even thought to do.
Right.
I think for me, travel allows you
to do things you never imagined.
If you only
say, if you came into life with a list of
things like, here's my bucket list that
I wrote when I was five, and that is your
main mission in life to complete that.
I believe you're missing out on so many
things because you, to me, I've been
a lot of places and I've done a lot of
things, and I know there's a million
more things I haven't even tried yet,
Brandon Giella: Hmm,
Kerry Griffing: and so I think
you sell yourself short if
you think you know it all,
Brandon Giella: Hmm.
There are so many things.
There's so many things that you don't
even have the imagination to think of yet.
Kerry Griffing: Correct.
Brandon Giella: That are out there
that you literally could go today
or do today, but your imagination
hasn't even stretched that far.
It's, it's really amazing.
Kerry Griffing: Yes.
Brandon Giella: Amazing, amazing.
Well, Carrie, this has been a lovely
conversation and I'm so grateful
that we were able to talk about this.
'cause I think it's so important.
I mean, you are, you're a VP of
engineering operations at a tech
company, and you have this incredible.
Perspective and orientation toward the
human spirit in travel, the soul of
travel, bringing back experiences into
why we're doing this to begin with.
And I just love that balance.
I love that integration and I think it's
such an important work that you're doing.
So thank you for sharing it
with us and uh, hopefully we'll
have you back on the show.
Kerry Griffing: Thank you.
It's been great.
Brandon Giella: We'll see you next time.
Kerry Griffing: Thank you.