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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hello and welcome back to Long Game, a Heat ed Rivalry podcast. My name is Declan, this is Sylvan and we are going to be dissecting episode 5 of Heat at Rivalry. Now this was voted one of the best performing episodes in TV history according to IMDB. So there is a lot to talk about in this one. So bear with us. This one is going to be a bit longer than the other ones, but hopefully you enjoy the content. So.
Let's start first with what were your general thoughts of this episode?
Silvan (00:34)
Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's a lot to unpack in this episode. Even when I was making my notes, every scene felt really significant and there was so much within each scene that I don't think you could have taken anything out without really losing a lot. So they really packed it in in this episode and I don't know whether it's because now we're ramping up to episode five and that's going to be the finale.
But yeah, I think you're right. In a way, the IMDb thing really struck me when it came, when that discourse came up online. You know, it was voted literally a 10 out of 10, along with one of the Breaking Bad episodes. What do you think that reflects in terms of a cultural shift
Declan (01:19)
So I view IMDB episode rankings as how good were they at wrapping up elements of the story or portraying elements of the story because you can compare one TV show to another and one will be super serious and very artistic and very direct and will have lower ratings than one which is fun and fluffy and all this other stuff. it's...
a ranking based on the elements of the story that is being introduced through this TV show. So the themes, the characters, the plot, everything that's been built up so far. in that, yes, 100 % this episode is a 10 out of 10. The way in which it builds upon the characters that they've already created, the way in which it wraps up certain plot points and gives you that sort of catharsis, particularly with the ending and things like that. Yeah, 100%. It's doing everything that
you could have done as a writer, a director, as a producer to expand on the elements of the world that you've already built and do them justice. in that sense, yeah, it's the big payoff. A lot of this episode is payoff and it works. So it does as a result of that. And that's why I think it was classified as a 10 out of 10.
Silvan (02:30)
I mean, I voted. I don't know if anyone else listening did, but please tell us if you did. Because when I saw that I was compelled to vote, it felt like an X Factor American Idol kind of thing. It's like, like if everyone else is putting their two cents in, I'm going to throw it in as well. Especially when some people started to devalue the voting system because it was getting a lot of attention. I thought, no, I'm going to count to this.
Declan (02:42)
and Golden Mother.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of that. think that's why you do need to be careful with online ratings and things like that there for shows, because some people can just take a disliking to a particular element that's expressed in it. So, for example, I mean, you might have had people try to downgrade the show or downvote it because it's LGBTQ plus piece of media. But obviously it didn't work this time because the fire and the passion for this show
It's just so great that anyone that watched these episodes were just so taken by them that they had to give a great ranking. They outnumbered the smaller crowd. So yeah, I suppose this rating is well earned then.
Silvan (03:35)
Yeah, and what were your thoughts sort of how much they put into this episode because there is a lot.
Declan (03:42)
There was a lot, but while it was condensely packed, it didn't seem to affect the pacing at all. Everything flowed very naturally. There wasn't a moment where I thought, this is all over the place. I don't know what I'm doing here. And I think taking it back to Ilya and Shane's relationship and how his breakup with Rose impacts the rest of the story in their relationship.
because basically what's happened in this now is that the obstacles have been removed. So they no longer have sort of personal excuses to not be pursuing this a bit more often and not to be admitting feelings for one another. And because of that, you get a nice flow to the story. get them sort of now exploring this new version of their relationship in which they've laid out the cards on the table. I like you, you like me. This is pretty serious now and I can't keep away from you.
And I don't have this woman as an excuse anymore to not be doing this. So yeah, I think because of that pacing and then you get that amazing ending then just to top it all off. So we get to wrap up another sort of side story that was happening that we got to sort of go away for, for a bit and come back to. And I think it just works so seamlessly because it just inserts itself in a way in there in Ilya and Shane's story that just makes the whole thing work.
Silvan (05:05)
Exactly. And I think the way they open this episode in itself was really smart because we've just finished episode four where we have, you know, the really significant nightclub scene with a TATU song and that literally got everyone jumping out of their seats quite literally. And so this one opens, episode five opens, you know, the morning after essentially with Shane and Rose. And we see that, you know,
Declan (05:18)
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (05:31)
Shane didn't really perform, whether it's alluded that Rose is okay with that, it's not a big deal kind of thing, but what is she going to say really? She's not going to chastise him in the moment.
Declan (05:43)
Yeah, that's not the kind of character that we've been taught to see. That's not how she's been characterized that she wouldn't do that to him. And that is perfectly sort of emulated in their follow-up discussion where she takes them to the restaurants and does the world's kindest breakup.
Silvan (06:01)
Can we break this scene down? Because there's so much to it.
Declan (06:06)
I...yes. My favourite element of that entire scene is Rose's character. I think it just speaks volume of the way that she's going about this. There is so much understanding, there's so much empathy and humour in the way that she does it. And for someone like Shane who is not really good at expressing his emotions and his feelings, you can really see how she has the type of personality and relationship with him that allows him to open up.
in a way that he can't really with other people. Like she creates a very safe environment for him. And despite the fact that she's sort of hurting herself a little bit here, you know, she is ultimately breaking up with this guy that she did very much like, and she's setting aside that those sort of hurt feelings and that sort of disappointment to be there for him in a way that he really, really needs at this moment in time. And it's just such a good moment to
establish her character, the kind of person she really is. It just makes me love her.
Silvan (07:03)
Yeah, think this is the... I mean, I was in love with Rose from that first time we met her, but this really cements a character as a well-developed and really likeable character, one that we're rooting for, despite the fact that her and Shane have been together this whole time. In fact, what I wasn't clear on is how long have Shane and Rose been together? Because it could literally have been months or weeks or days that I don't see that passage in time.
really clearly marked out.
Declan (07:36)
think in the book it's months, I think it's like two or three months. No, not 100 % sure, but I get that. There's still in the back of my mind telling me that it was like a couple of months. But it was serious then and it was very public. was, so yeah, that sort of lends itself to the jealousy then that Ilya had as a result of it because it was so public. And you can sort of see that in one of the scenes where Shane is like reading the comments about.
a post that he put up with him and Rose and everyone's like, my God, they belong together. My favorite celebrity couple, whatever. And then it cuts to Ilya who's doing the exact same thing just because of the jealousy that he's feeling. Whereas Shane on the other hand is sort of feeling shame instead. so yeah, it's that contrast. It's, it's, it's just a perfect way of saying that Ilya is just as invested in this relationship as Shane just invested in seeing it end rather than succeed.
Silvan (08:26)
Yeah, and he's jealous, like anyone else would be.
Declan (08:28)
⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, he's completely jealous of the situation, he is.
Silvan (08:34)
Yeah, and I think even the way they just open the scene out, you know, from the lighting, the lighting is, you know, they're in the restaurant. It's really dim lighting. you've got again, Jacob Tierney likes these orange red hues and you see this come up a lot. You see it a lot again when they leave the restaurant as well. A lot of this is really mirrored. But even when she starts that interaction, you know, she starts that interaction with a compliment to Shane. She says, you're so cute.
Declan (08:59)
Yeah, she's buttering him up. There she is.
Silvan (09:02)
Yeah, and
yeah, and I'm not sure at this point if she's already decided or if she needs that one little bit of extra confirmation. I don't know at this point. What are your impressions there?
Declan (09:15)
No, I think she 100 % knew what she was going in for. She knew she was going to break up with him, but she was sort of giving him the opportunity to of come clean about who he is and what he's going through. And I think she comes across to me as someone who is very aware, she is very intelligent, she is socially very smart and she has a sort of charm to her that only comes from someone that really knows how to read people. And I think she picks that up.
for you Shane. think she already knows that he's gay. think them having sex then was just confirmation for her. So then her going to the restaurant then and being like, I'm going to try and be really nice about this because I really like this guy. And she reiterates that to him, like, I really like you, Shane. Like, she is reassuring him that this is nothing to do with him personally. It's just the fact that they're not compatible. And she does in a very kind way. I really like that about her.
Silvan (10:09)
Yeah, and there's no confrontation really. It's very gentle. Even her demeanor, her mannerisms are really, really gentle. mean, even the way she brings up the topic, you she brings up Miles, for example, first, and she's like, you didn't know Miles was gay? Like, how did you not clock that? What are you avoiding? Why are you avoiding this? And I think, you know, using that as a segue to be like, yeah, loads of actors in Hollywood are gay. Are hockey players gay.
Shane cannot look her in the eye. He avoids this sort of this penetration of inquisition, but it's gentle inquisition.
Declan (10:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, this is the thing. You'll notice throughout the series that nobody directly confronts about his sexuality ever. Until Rose. And the thing is that Shane is socially, like as she points out, you didn't know he was gay. That's very strange. Shane is, as confirmed by the author, canonically autistic. And he does not read social cues very well. He doesn't really read social settings the best.
And that's a perfect example of what she's bringing up. It's like, you didn't spot that, didn't clap that. That's a bit. Yeah, but strange that. And so for someone to directly confront them about his sexuality, he's not going to have the social skills to lie on the spot like that. He's just not going to be able to do that. He sort of wears a lot of his emotions on his face. So does. And I think that's where Hudson Williams does a really good job of his character, because he's portraying someone that struggles to emote. But.
He's also showing subtlety in his emotions through his facial expressions. So very tough job as an actor, I can imagine, but he really does ace it, especially in this scene. You can see him really start to well up. He's like, you can see the redness enter his eyes where he's getting really, really upset about, you know, either her finding out or calling him out or the relief of, you know, having someone acknowledge him and acknowledge this element of who he is.
And it's such a really emotionally intense moment so it is. It's really good TV.
Silvan (12:19)
And it's really good acting. Hudson Williams is the king of the tears welling up, but not dropping the tears. It's almost these pools of tears. it sort of pulls you into his eyes even more. And you're watching it, right? But he doesn't let it drop. never, at least not in this episode, he does not let it drop. And what I like about what happens in that moment when Rose is sort of reaching across from him, for him rather.
Declan (12:32)
Yeah, because you're waiting for the little drop.
Silvan (12:47)
She grabs his hand again here. We see this her wanting to create this physical connection almost to ground him back because he starts looking away and stuff. She grounds him back. She knows Shane really well. Like more so than he knows her, I think she's really tuned in to him and how he what he needs as well. But I don't think it's I don't think it's reciprocated in this on the same level necessarily. But I love that there's this, you know.
Declan (13:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Silvan (13:15)
Her questions aren't accusatory. They're layered with curiosity and openness. There's this gentleness that you were talking about. And I think you're right. I think she knew she was going to have this conversation. knew she knew what she was going to say, even though she says at one point, know, I don't think I'm doing this right. I thought that was really cute.
Declan (13:33)
Yeah, because she
had a plan. She had a plan for how she wanted to do this and she's kind of screwed up a little bit. She's been about to upfront. So she is basically using leading questions to get Shane to acknowledge a part of himself in front of her. Kind of like a therapist. She gives off those vibes like she is. She's doing it in this gentle guiding way to try to get him to open up about an element of himself that he is terrified of and
You're right. She does constantly try to grab back his attention to bringing it back into the physical, into the moment, not letting him sort of drift off into his own world to try to escape. She like grounds it back in the moment. So she does. And she grabs his hand and he forces them to look her in the eye. Because she knows that Shane will be a shit liar. So if she can get him to look in the eye and have that conversation while he's looking at her, he can't deny a thing here. Because like you said, she knows him.
Silvan (14:16)
Yeah.
Declan (14:29)
very, very well in a very short amount of time. And Shane Blessin doesn't quite have the same social skills as her to read her just the same. So for him, this probably feels like an ambush, whereas he is more afraid of, she's really getting close here. And you can see the panic start to set in, whereas he doesn't quite understand that she's a safe, she's a safe space here. She's just reestablishing that for him. She's giving him the space. She's creating it in that moment where she's doing all the leading questions and
She's sort of talking about the sexuality of her friend to be like, yeah, my friend's gay. Did you not know that? I'm okay with my friend being gay. It's all laid out there. So does she is doing such a good job of laying down the foundations for what is basically a therapeutic relationship. She's establishing trust there. It's really smart.
Silvan (15:16)
completely.
It's and it's really good writing because you're right. Nobody outright, at least Rose, doesn't outright say, hey, are you gay? What she actually says is, would you rather be kissing Miles? And I think that says a lot. mean, you can see Shane Stiflen, he avoids eye contact again.
And you know, there's that conversation about the sex being a problem. And she very, very attunedly says, a problem is something you can fix. That's not a problem here.
Declan (15:47)
Yes
yes she is communicating to him that your sexuality is not a problem it's not something you can fix about yourself that's the sort of on said thing that she's suggesting and it's such a lovely thing that she would really really need to hear not moment because he is about to be out of the is about to. Call me for the first time to somebody like he hasn't come out of the area like baby sleeping together but he's never said the words.
He's never really discussed the sexuality with Ilya. I think that goes back to that previous episode as well, where Ilya is trying to elicit that sort of conversation from him when he's talking about women and the woman I sleep with and I like to do about whatever. He's trying to elicit that conversation from Shane at that moment, but Shane takes it the wrong way. He takes it as Ilya's trying to show off. He's just trying to say that, like I sleep with all these women, look how amazing I am. You don't mean anything to me. And it's that miscommunication then that Rose doesn't get wrong because Rose is not Ilya.
She's a much better communicator than he is. And that's, this is just exactly who Shane needs in this moment. She is the perfect friend for Shane at this moment in time.
Silvan (16:45)
100%.
Yeah, I agree. so when Rose asks if he's ever been with anyone before, there's this sort of nod and then there's a cutaway scene to Ilya in the shower and it's their very first encounter. My question is, why do you think they chose that scene specifically? Because then they cut away to different scenes. So it's that scene in the shower and then it's the stairway.
where they're at Shane's apartment and Ilya's about to leave and then they kiss. So there's these very specific scenes they cut away to and I'm wondering what the significance of those moments are for Shane because he's the one recalling these memories.
Declan (17:37)
I think because they're some of their most intimate moments, they are. Them being in the shower, the stairs, they are emotionally charged moments and they're not just the regular sex moments, so they're not. And so when she's talking about being together with someone, to him, those are the moments that stick out, those really intimate emotional moments. And I think that's where
as mine goes, because that's how he really feels. mean, yes, they're enjoying the sex, they're enjoying that aspect of the relationship, but really what's the problem now is that the emotional aspect of it is so strong in Shane that it's overshadowing the sort of sexual interest. It's sort of, it's putting that secondary for the first time really. And that's the first time that Shane sort of admits to himself that it's secondary.
that it's actually the emotional connection that he's developed with Ilya that's actually what's important to him. So yeah, I like the way they did that little montage where you did get an idea of his thoughts and how he's feeling in that moment where his mind went to when she asked him that question.
Silvan (18:42)
Yeah. Do you know what I really like in that scene as well is when Rose asks if he's ever told anyone and Shane cannot say the words. He does not say the words. Yes, no, he doesn't say anything. He shakes his head. And I thought, actually, that's so authentic because and this is a bit of self-disclosure and this might resonate with other people. I don't know. But I remember telling, you know, the first few friends that I was telling, I told him in person, I
Declan (18:53)
without storming the film.
Silvan (19:11)
couldn't say the words. It was really hard to say the words because in a way saying the words almost puts it out there. You can't take it back. There's a finality in saying those words, I'm gay, that changes things. And I thought the fact that he couldn't say it just meant, I don't know where Jacob Tierney was pulling from, but I feel like there's a real shared experience amongst
Declan (19:21)
⁓ Yeah.
Silvan (19:40)
queer kids when they're sort of asked or when they're trying to come out and I thought that was so, so special actually.
Declan (19:41)
Yeah.
That felt very real to me as well. I remember that moment as well. It almost feels like you're jumping off a cliff. So it does. It feels like you have that swoop in your stomach. It's like, God, here we go. And it's a really poignant thing. And him not being able to speak because he's getting so choked up, because he's so overwhelmed with the emotion and with the truth. It just felt very real. It wouldn't surprise me if that's an experience that Jacob Tierney himself has had.
because it was just such a moment. It just ⁓ sort of grabbed you that little shake of the head where he's holding back the tears and he can't even get the words out. He can't even speak to you because he's just so overwhelmed with the feeling. That's just so real. It is so, so real. And it came across as very authentic and it was beautifully acted, so it was. It was so well done.
Silvan (20:42)
Yeah, I mean, I've got goosebumps just talking about it. You can't see it on camera, but I've literally got goosebumps right now. And I want to go back to something you said earlier about sort of, you know, Rose no longer being this obstacle. And I think, you know, that line that Rose says about 80 % of my boyfriends have left me for other guys. It lightens the mood, right? It does lighten the mood. But at that point, I can't help to feel for Rose. I have a special place in my heart for Rose. I do. But I'm like, damn.
This is a woman who 80 % of the time other guys have left her for another guy. That's a whole level of rejection. in a way, know, Shane and Ilya not being honest with each other creates this collateral damage around them no matter what they think is going to happen. Other people get hurt.
Declan (21:33)
Yeah, that's the thing that I think the whole of the last episode was all about collateral damage. it was it was who's this relationship affecting when we're not being together and we're trying to force this to continue on. And yeah, it leaves people damaged as a result, like for Rose, like justice for Rose. Like she's missing out on this great guy that she thought that she she stood a chance with at that point in time, it just didn't work out for her.
just an hour one of the 80 % so he is. And I like that we care so much about her at this point in time because in the books while she's a likable character, she's not as likable as she is in this one. Even the conversation that they have is extended upon. It's done in a much more tender way, I think. And it feels a lot more realistic in the show. Not to sort of shit on the books or anything like that. They did a really good job there. And I was very choked up at that moment when I was reading it.
But the way it's delivered here is just outstanding, so it is. And because we care so much about our character now, we're just so invested in this friendship now that they have, where Shane finally has someone that he can confide in. And this has not happened yet. He's literally had absolutely no one because Ilya and Shane have closed off the emotional talking thing within their relationship because it leads to them having complicated feelings. So Shane...
cannot even discuss this with the one person which he's sharing these experiences with. So the fact that he now has someone finally that he can talk to about this, it's just, it must be such a relief as someone who went through something like that. Like you can only imagine what it would feel like to finally be able to open up to someone about this in a way that, you you don't need to be afraid of how they're going to react.
And it's just such a powerful moment for the two of them. And I think it's really reaffirming for the friendship that does come afterwards as well.
Silvan (23:31)
Yeah, in a way you're right. This the first person that you tell or you have a conversation about it with it's this huge relief and it almost leads to this snowball feeling. It's like, okay, maybe I can do this with someone else. Maybe I can do it to the next person. You know, maybe I can tell the next person rather. And you're right, they do develop this. They establish that they have this very deep friendship. Even to the point where she's like, I'm going to keep texting you. You're going to get bored of me. I'm going to be so annoying kind of thing.
Declan (23:40)
Okay.
Silvan (23:56)
Even to the point did you clock that she says you are one of the funniest guys I know? Which contrasts.
Declan (24:01)
You're one of
the... It was like... You are one of the secretly funniest guys I've ever known.
Silvan (24:08)
Right? Which
contrasts when Ilya keeps saying he's boring in a very jokingly way.
Declan (24:13)
Yeah,
yeah, it just goes to show that she is someone who sees him in a way that other people don't. Like she sees his funny little mannerisms and things like that there and the things that he says and the conversations that he gets into and he finds so much joy and humour in the way that he sees the world. And Ilya is the exact same. Ilya is completely charmed by Shane and his little
mannerisms, the way he does things, the folding of the clothes and the interest in all these presumably boring topics. And he gets so much joy out of him and how he gets sort of all this entertainment from these seemingly innocuous things. So it just goes to show that she has a deep understanding of who he is. So she does. And I like that moment where she goes, I think we should be best friends.
she's like, no, no, I don't mean like, yeah, sure. We'd be friends. And then we never talked to each other again. I mean, no, I want to be your best friend. I want to be really annoying about this. I am like me and you are not done And I love that she took the time to establish that little difference. It's like, no, we're, not doing the, the, might talk to you. sure. We can still be friends. Fine. No, I am literally going to annoy you so much that I will be your bestie by the end of it.
And I just love that moment. I loved that establishing of their new friendship and their new dynamic and how it just works so perfectly for Shane and his character and the journey that he's going on. And it feels like it's done at the right moment. This is the sort of pebble that causes the avalanche. it is this moment with Rose is what opens up the rest of the world to Shane.
Silvan (25:59)
Yeah. And in a way, as a viewer, I don't want to be done with Rose either. Like, I want more of Rose. I don't care how we get more Rose, but I want more Rose. And I think you're right. think this is so perfectly the relationship between Rose and Shane is so perfectly and wonderfully mirrored with the relationship between Ilya and Svetlana. I think he has almost this very similar relationship dyadic with Svetlana.
Declan (26:22)
Yes.
Silvan (26:28)
Can we talk about that scene where they're both in bed?
Declan (26:32)
Yes, it's
There's obviously a sexual element to their relationship, but it's very casual and like the way that people actually mean it when it's friends with friends with benefits. That is literally the definition of their relationship. it is, and it works because Svetlana never pressures Ilya for more. And you can see that Ilya is not interested in pursuing more with her. Their arrangement is actually what it is supposed to be. It's what
him and Shane are supposed to be, but because they're so emotionally attached to each other, they literally cannot take those steps to get at risk that. And I think it's interesting that their scene immediately follows Shane and Rose's scene. I think that is entirely intentional, obviously, but it creates this contrast where there isn't really a contrast. Whereas you see that Ilya has had this female friend, this female friendship, the one who is out to support and help him.
in a way that Shane has just gotten. So they now have a similar dynamic with a female friend where they can confide in them. They can turn to them. They have a special relationship that isn't strictly sexual. Even though they have both had sex with both of these women. And I like the way in which they serve the role of almost like little cupids. They're like, you're holding yourself back from somebody here. I know you are.
and I can see that your mind is not in the right place. So why don't you pursue things with Jane? Why don't you pursue things with this guy that you've previously slept with? And they are just sort of trying to play matchmaker because they can see that they deeply care about the romantic partner in the background. Again, the girls don't even know who they're talking about. They just know that it's special. The relationship is different. They can see the change in them. They can see that it is so very important.
and I like that element of it. I like that they know them so well and that the guys can confide in these girls as a sort of support system.
Silvan (28:39)
And I think where the difference between these two women lie is Rose is very much there for Shane. She's a very big emotional support and she's helping him through this really tricky time for him.
But for me, Svetlana is almost Ilya's counterpart. She's his equal. She knows just as much about hockey than he does. In fact, I think she knows a bit more because she's tracking all the other teams and telling Ilya who's going through and who's not gonna go through and which team he can play against and go in and things like that. You know, given, yeah.
Declan (29:11)
And she's right.
She's right. in the book, Ilya also makes it clear that Svetlana knows way more about hockey than he does, which I thought was really, really funny and really good dynamic. But yeah, I can see what you're talking about. There is a difference in their relationship, but it's kind of like they're made for each individual person. Rose has that humorous, lighthearted, caring, empathetic approach.
towards Shane, which works for him. It's his personality. It's tender. It's slow. It's measured and it's very clever. Svetlana is a lot more direct. She's a lot more coy. She's a bit more, you know, cheeky about the way that she approaches Ilya, which matches his personality a lot more. So she is able to sort of be direct with him in a way which other people aren't that he's not going to shy away from.
He's not going to put up his front. So he's not, he can't sort of escape her gaze. So in a way, Rose's relationship could never work on Ilya. And so Svetlana Lana's relationship could never work on Shane, but whenever they're dealing with their respective people, it just works. They make perfect compliments for them based on their personalities. I think that's just really clever writing.
Silvan (30:31)
Yeah, these women give their other halves what they need at that time. Svetlana is going to call you out, she's going to give you shit for it as well, which I absolutely love. In fact, I think Svetlana is almost one step ahead of Rose in the realization where when she knows, I think she knows about Shane. I think she knows about Shane's rigidness as well. There's a comment or a line that she talks about when she's addressing how hot Shane is.
Declan (30:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Silvan (31:01)
and how good a player he is, and then saying, he could never play center, you'd have to play wing or something like that. To which Ilya has this really funny outburst and it's like pseudo wrestling sort of like, know, WWE sort of thing. So I think she knows more about Shane than Ilya thinks she does.
Declan (31:20)
100%. There is a lot in what she is saying in that. First of all, the fact that she says, ⁓ he has good hands. He's good hands and he's really hot. She is, she's putting a little bit of bait right there for him to sort of jump on. And the minute that he denies it, she knows her matter of fact, my God, it's him. He's Jane.
Silvan (31:43)
in
the same way that Rose does when she brings up Miles.
Declan (31:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Like, she used that example to try to basically confirm a hypothesis that she had, and Ilya just completely confirms it for her because his initial reaction is to try to be smart and like, no, no, I hate him. No, no, I don't like him. She's like, my God, I know you. Like, you don't care about that. You would have said if he was hot because he is objectively hot. So the fact that you're not meaning that you're trying to hide something. And I know for a matter of fact that
Yeah, this is the guy. This is the guy that you've been seeing. And then the comment about, know, he can play center, you can play left. And he's like, no, no, why should I have to play left? so because you can, you can play either side and he belongs in the center. And it's like, you are the perfect compliment to him in terms of, you know, your play and your game, but also in terms of our relationship, you compliment each other nicely and you can compromise on a way that makes your relationship work.
there's so much being said and what she's sort of hinted at in that discussion and it just makes her very, she's very aware, she's very coy, so she's quite a smart character and you do get that sense of intelligence from her as well. It just makes her also really really likeable.
Silvan (33:03)
So having thought about sort of the passage of time here. So the next time we see them is at this bar scene in Tampa in 2017. So it's been a whole year, presumably, then, since Shane's broken up with Rose.
and a little bit more than we get from the night scene, the nightclub scene rather. Like, why do you think there's that long passage there of time?
Declan (33:26)
I think it is. I don't think it is the year. I think it's the start of that year. But I think their relationship thing was happening in the winter and this is now going into the spring and this is supposed to be the, the thing. I think it's only been like a few months. So it is. think maybe a few months, maybe weeks even. But it has been a while for them. It's been.
It's been a while since they've had a proper interaction with one another and the last time they had an interaction, you know, it wasn't great. Shane had fled Ilya's home and it was a really negative thing and then all of sudden he went off to find a girlfriend and created this whole mess. obviously what has been happening, Ilya has been thieving in jealousy and has been unable to sort of alleviate it.
He didn't go home and sleep with the girl from the club. As far as we know, he has not really been going out and sleeping about in the way that he previously has. So there is a lot building up to this. There's a lot of tension. There's a lot between the two of them that has been left unsaid. And in particular, Shane's relationship with Rose is a big sticking point. And you can immediately tell that Ilya is dying to just ask him directly, but they're both so fucking stubborn.
that they just absolutely will not go out and directly ask each other the question. It's typical of their character, it's typical of their dynamic, but it's so frustrating.
Silvan (34:53)
Right? mean, whilst there is that tension, you can see that there's this real warmth when they do come together in that bar scene. Like they are happy to see each other.
Declan (35:04)
100%. Yeah, yeah, you can feel it. And the sort of banter, the back and forth of the, you know, the stylist and look the way you're dressing. Don't laugh at me. You're not allowed to laugh. And he just can't help himself. has to cover his mouth. And then I'm giving him grief about how stressed sense and stuff. And it's just such a cute thing. And it just goes to show that these guys really do just sort of.
have such a good rapport with one another. They're just so likeable together and they have that sort of old married couple style of communicating and it's just so great and it's like, this is what you're missing out on. And they're sort of common to that realization themselves. It's like, I'm missing out on this. This is what I've been avoiding. It's what I've been trying to move away from. And yeah, it's very, very interesting. it is.
Silvan (35:57)
Yeah, they're almost anticipating how the other one and knows how the other one's going to react before they do in a way. And I was wondering, as I was watching this, what's the significance of Shane hiring a stylist? Because we can see he's had this very public sort of relationship with Rose. He's been paparazzi to hell and back, sure. I wonder if it's more an outward sort of image thing that he's now getting a lot more attention, or is it that he just wants to look better?
because he wants to protect this outward image. I don't know what they say in the books.
Declan (36:31)
So
I think in the books it was the fact that he was hanging around with Rose and he felt very undressed. Like in the club scene he remarks in the book upon the clothes that he's wearing and how he feels so undressed and slobbish and things like that there. And I think what's funny is it's after they break up that he has these changes and I think that's because Rose now feels comfortable enough to tell him that you dress like shit, you need to get status, you need to start presenting yourself properly, you're not, you know...
You're not being the hottest version of yourself that you possibly can. And because I'm your cheerleader and I know that you're out for somebody, I'm going to dress you to the nines and I'm going to make you look really good. And I think in the book as well, Ilya does actually comment on that. That's like, shit, he looks really good. Fuck. Yeah.
Silvan (37:16)
right? And I wondered if
it was like you know there's this thing called the girlfriend effect where guys look objectively hotter when they're with a girl or have a girlfriend because the girlfriend starts to style them naturally and buy them clothes and things like that so I wondered if it was happening sort of during the relationship or after but he doesn't hire the stylist until after so I wonder if he's like I don't have anyone to dress me sorry
Declan (37:36)
It's the best brand effect.
It's the best brand effect. So it is.
Silvan (37:42)
Yeah. Now, Ilya's reaction to, you know, Shane disclosing he has a stylist, I thought, and I want to hear what you say, because when I watched this the first couple of times, I thought this felt like a break in character. This did not feel to me like how Ilya would respond. And maybe it's because we haven't seen Ilya being warm and fuzzy and jokey and cutesy rather. This felt like this is how Connor Storrie would react.
because he covers his face, he has this big old smile. I'm like, this doesn't feel like an Ilya reaction. I don't know what you were thinking.
Declan (38:19)
It's 100 % Connor story-ism. think that honestly, would say Jack McTherry says, right, you're going to have a little laughter, sir. If you're going to have a little chuckle. And because that's what Connor does in real life, can see in interviews things that got there. He does do the thing with a big smile. And I think that was just part of part of him himself. But I think it works because we are now getting a version of Ilya that wants to joke with Shane. He wants to be in on the joke. He wants to
Silvan (38:24)
Right?
Declan (38:49)
show him that he is enjoying his company and he's finding humor in what he says. in mind, Ilya is like really, really after Shane at this point, like he wants him back and he is doing his best to sort of charm him, to sort of give him a bit more than he usually does in terms of their conversations and stuff. So it doesn't surprise me that he feels more open to Shane and expressing his emotions towards him.
because he's like, look, I'm happy that you're looking, we're making jokes and this is great. my God, that's amazing. Isn't it? We should be the, you know, He doesn't need to be that rooting bad boy. Can a, ⁓ you know, I'm going to take you upstairs and we'll have a little bit of a time. He's incredibly vulnerable. There's someone almost childish about the way that he's presenting himself. This is clearly uncharted territory for him and he's trying his best.
Silvan (39:19)
and you're not with Rose anymore.
Declan (39:39)
And he is enjoying it. You can see he's enjoying the conversation as well. And that's really lovely.
Silvan (39:45)
I like that you said that because there is this sort of childness sort of fever around this scene. And you see this in the next scene in the pool scene where I call this sort of daddy, Ilya.
Declan (39:53)
Napoleon.
Silvan (39:56)
Ilya's peacocking here for Shane. He's trying to get his attention.
Declan (40:00)
100 % I don't think that shirt was a coincidence. I think he chose the most garish when he could. I actually remember in the book as well that Ilya was so embarrassed about his shirt whenever he seen how Shane was dressed because he was like, shit, I really need to make an impression here. And I'm dressed in this stupid Hawaiian shirt and he sees come in looking like an Adonis all dressed up at night. And it's so funny that insecurity plays really well in the book.
But I feel like in the show, it's avoided a little bit more and you get more of the humor and stuff. And I think that works for this interaction. So it does. But I do like that pole scene afterwards where Ilya is just being an adorable idiot and it's everything that Shane like really likes about him. So it is. And then I'm getting out of the pole and I'm being like, ⁓ my God. Okay. Yeah. Right. Back to reality. And it's, it's so funny. It's such a good moment.
Silvan (40:54)
Right?
Declan (40:57)
But yeah, it is, it's showing Illya in a different light, this sort of fun loving version of himself, which is I think actually him. I think that's the real version of who he is. And he is showing Shane for the really the first time what kind of guy he actually really is, who he truly is. He is this fun loving energetic kid in a man's body who loves to play around and have fun and
make fun of people and be a little bit cheeky. He's definitely the joker of the class and it's such a lighthearted innocent version of him that is completely detached from that really sexualized dark brooding upfront sometimes rude version that he presents to the world and it's definitely a signifier of the change in their relationship towards one another being able to show Shane this version of himself that we've never seen before.
Silvan (41:52)
I think you're right. think they're unveiling these layers and it's so beautiful to watch because sometimes you're not expecting it. And when it does happen, you're almost taken aback. It's like I remember watching an interview with Conor Story and I think he was on Shut Up, the Shut Up Evan podcast. And he was talking about how people thought his character was really mean and really dark, but actually
he's just misunderstood and he doesn't get to reveal that until a little bit later, like in episodes five onwards. And so Connor's story is even making this remark. And I think we're just catching up as well for those people who haven't read the books.
Declan (42:23)
You think? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It's you need to understand like it's a character journey, so it is like you are not going to. Hopefully you're not going to have the same character at the beginning of the book that you have at the end. The whole idea is that they undergo these changes that they turn into different people and you see different versions of them. And it's very important that you do have that sense of progress because a stationary character is incredibly boring. This is the idea of like.
Mary Sue or there's like a male version of it as well, can't remember, where they're perfect from beginning to end and they are the paragons of goodness and greatness. They're boring and they're not fun to watch. Ilya and Shane being flawed characters is very, very important and sometimes the fact that Ilya can be unlikable and can be rude and can be dismissive, it's important because later on we realize that that's actually not him, that's not who he really is.
And it's a front, it's a mask that he wears to survive the world in which he grows up in. Like it's obviously for the benefit of his family that Ilya's become like this. If you want to take it back to like childhood psychology, there's obviously a lot of trauma there. And the fact that we also find out in this episode that Ilya's mother died when he was young. You know, that, that matters. You know, that, has a massive influence on.
Um, Ilya as well. And the fact that his father was his main parent then, was a very, very hard man and very, very, um, difficult for Ilya to deal with and set a lot of expectation on him. It's no wonder Ilya presented this front, this, this version of himself that he used to protect himself, that uncaring, like nothing can affect me. Nothing ever gets through my walls. Like that's, you know, it's a self-defense mechanism, but now we're at that point in the story where.
We're seeing behind the wall, we're seeing exactly what we've been working up towards. We're getting Shane finally up that mountain to climb over it to see what is on the other side, what kind of version of Ilya are we actually looking forward to. And now that we're getting those moments, those moments where Ilya is finally starting to present that real version of himself, it's very, very satisfying.
Silvan (44:41)
Absolutely.
Declan (44:42)
So this is actually going be divided into two parts because we have so much to discuss. So this was part one. So tune in for part two, which should be following up afterwards. yeah, we'll chat to you guys then.