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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Welcome to this next interview. I'm really glad to have Rob Townsend on another candidate who has been nominated and accepted that nomination. And now he's in a candidate of 9 candidates for the Episcopacy this 2 year interim episcopacy. And so rob thanks. So much for coming on the today's Podcast.
Rob Townsend: You're very welcome. It's it's an honor to be here, glad to. Glad to get to know.
Rob Townsend: for everybody to get to know all of us.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, for sure that it's been a fun thing for me to be able to be on these interviews. Just tell us a little about where you are and what you're doing before we get into the questions, the formal questions I have.
Rob Townsend: I. I live outside of Wilmington, Delaware, in a suburb called Hokesson, and I currently am the pastor of Country Church, Morse Chapel
Rob Townsend: and the Northeast Annual Conference. I'm a presiding elder in the Northern Maryland district, and I serve as Dean of the Cabinet for the northeast.
Rob Townsend: And I. I grew up on a I grew up on a farm and on the eastern shore of Maryland, and wanted to. Just.
Rob Townsend: I always wanted to be a farmer like my dad and his dad and his dad before him, and
Rob Townsend: while I had a great
Rob Townsend: time in church.
Rob Townsend: that's really where my my calling was, and
Rob Townsend: we had a bankruptcy sale. My senior year of high school.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rob Townsend: After 3 years of drought.
Rob Townsend: and that kind of that kind of
Rob Townsend: you know. Stop the the trajectory in terms of farming, because you can't really start farming on your on your own. You know these days how expensive machinery and stuff is. Of course, that was in the in the eighties. So that really was God opening another door for me? And I had. I was struggling with
Rob Townsend: with ministry and and struggling with the call. So that was a clear, a clear sign from the Lord to to hold his hand and and pursue
Rob Townsend: what eventually became a life of vocation, of ministry.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, beautiful. What'd you farm? What did your dad farm.
Rob Townsend: We actually were a grain farmer. So corn, soybeans, and wheat.
Andy Miller III: Interesting. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: This could maybe a nice segue. And I I appreciate you knowing my 1st question because you might have been tempted to answer that when I asked the 1st one. But this is the one I have a timer on for for 2 min, and I am timing it. Tell us how you came to know Jesus.
Rob Townsend: Yeah, I I grew up going to church I grew up in the United Methodist Church in Rock Hall, Maryland.
Rob Townsend: and it was part of a 3 point charge
Rob Townsend: and I, you know, was was brought to to church, obviously in the beginning, and then there was a season when my parents kind of in my my pre teen early teen years, my parents were not going to church, and I
Rob Townsend: I I literally walk to church by myself.
Rob Townsend: I I just really felt called and and drawn into into the presence of God, you know. That's that's Wesley's convenient grace. Right? I mean, it's.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Rob Townsend: So. But there was a great community around me, and and some loving adults that nurtured me in in that of course we had a tiny little youth group. I mean it, you know, it's only a town of about a thousand people. So it was small. But you know, got to enjoy the hymns and became an acolyte, and
Rob Townsend: I still have a picture of my me and my acolyte attire, you know, in my office today, but really just felt
Rob Townsend: called by God to be in relationship with Him, and, you know, started having devotions and so forth. And and, as I said before, I think that the call to ministry was solidified when when we lost our farm.
Rob Townsend: But but throughout college I was involved in inner Varsity Christian fellowship, learn how to lead small groups, and and then went from there eventually on to to seminary, and and, you know again became a pastor back home on the eastern shore of Maryland.
Andy Miller III: Hmm! Interesting. Well, you have another 27 seconds if you want them.
Andy Miller III: That's good. No, I I love that. It may be th. This might be a good segue to to think about this next question. In 3 min I'd love for you to tell me
Andy Miller III: gave an overview of what it may, what makes a Wesley and Christian, a Wesleyan Christian.
Rob Townsend: Yeah, I I think you know our distinctive tribe is is one in which
Rob Townsend: we obviously follow the teachings and the theology of of John Wesley, and you know that I I always say in my my sermons and to my church, that you know I think one of the greatest gifts that that John Wesley gave to
Rob Townsend: the theological debate was obviously his understanding of grace, you know, proven grace and and justifying grace and sanctifying grace. And and for us. It's a journey, you know, and even my own experience, I felt called by God that was a pervenient grace.
Rob Townsend: God calling me to to walk down the road to to church by myself as a as a kid. But then that that point when I know that I I wrote in my Bible. You know that that I was
Rob Townsend: clearly saved and had become a believer. I was baptized at 13 as a as a teenager which, in our tradition that you know, most folks are baptized as infants.
Rob Townsend: and then and then just continue to dive into the word. So
Rob Townsend: I think for us as Wesleyans. It is a journey, you know. There, there are marks along the way for some people. It's it's a time when they walk down the aisle at a at a sawdust, you know, kind of revival for others. It's it's a slow you can't pinpoint a date or a time so much as you. You recognize a season in your life.
Rob Townsend: but ultimately
Rob Townsend: you know, we know that that God loves us enough to
Rob Townsend: accept us as we are, but loves us enough not to leave us there, so that sanctifying grace allows us to to draw closer to the Lord, to become more. Christ like to to have the Holy Spirit in us in such a way that our lives begin to reflect a more Christ likeness in, in how we interact with others in the relationship. So to be a Wesleyan, we are in relationship with one another, and I think one of the distinctive features of
Rob Townsend: Wesleyanism is accountability. You know, with class meetings and and so forth. And we've had a real revival of that of late with small groups and
Rob Townsend: just accountability groups where folks are in relationship with one another, you have the ability to confess their sins.
Rob Townsend: and and with that continue along that journey, receiving God's grace and moving forward, and not not being stuck in the shame and guilt of sin. Yes.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rob Townsend: But dealing with it, having God deal with it, and then moving forward and and being becoming more price like with it.
Rob Townsend: So again those those grace pieces, that accountability. Obviously, we're we're ecumenical in. In how we live out our lives.
Rob Townsend: We don't have the only
Rob Townsend: the only way you know there are several other tribes around us that do great things with us. So as we reach across the aisle, if you will, and and join hands with other ministries that are that are moving along and moving forward. Then
Rob Townsend: we do great ministry. But I think to be Wesleyan is is to be in constant a constant journey of
Rob Townsend: understanding our sanctification, and becoming more Christ, like.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Beautiful! 3 min and 12 seconds. There you go. So altogether 2 questions combined, I think I have 10 seconds left. That's pretty good. Why, it's it's in Rob, like you were put in this position where you're nominated to be in this role. Why'd you accept that nomination? Have you sounds like you have a lot going on. There's a lot you could do. You're even on your cabinet presiding Elder, your church. But why did you accept this call?
Rob Townsend: I think I think in this interim period, and you know, we're talking about 2 years we. We often get accused of building the airplane as we're flying.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Rob Townsend: And you know, for so long. And the Wca. And and other organizations we've
Rob Townsend: we've tried to shape the transitional book of of doctrine and disciplines. And
Rob Townsend: this general conference will be a time where we we look at the Episcopacy.
Rob Townsend: but there's going to be other times where we have to look at other things. And and we're developing an organization and a structure, and we're doing it slowly.
Rob Townsend: So I accepted the nomination because of my experience. I've had the ability to to serve many different churches, country churches, town church.
Rob Townsend: an urban church, a suburban church. I've been a district superintendent in the United Methodist Church. I've been a director of Connectional ministries. So in terms of living life on the Cabinet most recently, I've I've seen
Rob Townsend: the right way to do it, and I think probably the wrong way to do it. So I accepted a nomination only because of my experience and what I might be able to offer during this
Rob Townsend: this interim phase. So
Rob Townsend: not that we all have to have that experience. Because all of us don't. But at the same time, I think my experiences on the Cabinet
Rob Townsend: in in my home annual conference in the United Methodist Church
Rob Townsend: that offers up some some ability to see and navigate some. Some of the the trouble that we might have ahead of us.
Andy Miller III: You. You mentioned the fact that this is a 2 year interim period, and that's what the just know, like I have in the introduction. I acknowledge the fact that there are a couple of different ways to look at this process. There's
Andy Miller III: 2 major pieces of legislation. Of course you could also stay with the transitional book. And what that could be so but just acknowledging that what you've been nominated for is what comes from the Transitional Leadership Council, and it calls for an assembly of bishops to come together in this interim period. What do you think should happen
Andy Miller III: in that interim period before full time. Bishops are elected in 2,026.
Rob Townsend: I I think it's a time for us to take a deep breath.
Rob Townsend: We have
Rob Townsend: We've been fighting a long time, and you know. I I think it's a season for us to
Rob Townsend: get over our distrust of the Episcopacy. We have all been hurt by it. I certainly have
Rob Townsend: And I. I know that
Rob Townsend: we can shape the Episcopacy right now, and we can focus on that
Rob Townsend: for the next 2 years, and then maybe come out at the next general Conference, with a better understanding and and more of an agreement of of where we are.
Rob Townsend: I think the next 2 years are going to be a season of more churches coming in. We've got a lot of places around the country that are still in lawsuits. We've got overseas and and global churches that are coming in, particularly on the continent of Africa. So as they come in, we'll
Rob Townsend: be better represented by different areas of the world which we want. We, we are a global church, we wanna, we wanna look and and be led by people from the the global church.
Rob Townsend: So I think I think this 2 year transition, or this 2 year season.
Rob Townsend: is one where we continue to to grow. In receiving new churches.
Rob Townsend: we begin to think about church planning.
Rob Townsend: But there's still some organizational pieces that we have to.
Rob Townsend: We have to figure out, and and part of that is
Rob Townsend: unlearning some of our
Rob Townsend: our past and and trying to trying to sift through what? What.
Rob Townsend: what was good. And and I'm speaking really from the United Methodist Church. What was good about what we had and and what do we need to leave behind. So for right now we still seem a little reactionary. We we don't want this because
Rob Townsend: A, B and C happened last time. So
Rob Townsend: it'll be a time for us to learn to trust and have leadership, and and we certainly do have that with Bishop Webb and Bishop Jones. I I can think of no better folks to have started started us off, and
Rob Townsend: and to lead us with their character and and their their spirituality.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, you just brought up something I'm going to jump ahead to later question is, there are things that we need to unlearn in this new phase, and probably some things to learn. One of I've I've had a privilege to preach at
Andy Miller III: several churches around the Mississippi area, and then most some churches disaffiliated by 99% vote or 100% vote. But then there's, as you know, probably in your area, too, some that lost it lost their disaffiliation vote by just a couple of votes, and have started new churches. And I think those churches have an interesting opportunity to be able to pivot and do some new things for
Andy Miller III: kind of serving their communities and for the sake of the gospel. And it's been interesting to me, though I went to one of those churches, and I was a I was the 1st preacher they ever had. Honest, I just came in 1st one Sunday, and somebody was there next Sunday. So it's this interesting moment while I was with them, and there was this moment where they they said, well, we don't do it that way.
Andy Miller III: Okay? Like what? What you remember, folks? This is week one. We don't. We don't do it that way, like it. And it it. What they were saying was, that's not how we did it when we were United Methodist in another building. And I I poke fun at that, because actually, it's a beautiful community. It's doing a great job now. And I'm really, you know, excited to see what they're doing. They know who I'm talking about. I'm not saying their name. I just want to.
Andy Miller III: I like that. So
Andy Miller III: at the at the same time, I I think there's there's an opportunity even for churches that had a 99% vote, 100% vote. It's an opportunity to embrace a new future. So what are the things, Rob, that we need to unlearn. And what are the things we need to learn.
Rob Townsend: Well, I I will preface this by saying I I'm I'm quoting Jeff Greenway here because I don't know if you've interviewed him yet or not. But.
Andy Miller III: Have. Yeah, yeah, it's okay.
Rob Townsend: The 9 of us have been have been getting together weekly for prayer and and and Jeff said something. I think last week that, you know this is a time for us to
Rob Townsend: literally
Rob Townsend: take our swords and beat them into plowshares, and and you know we have been warring for so long and so many of us, I mean, I've had a 25 year Ministry, and the whole time
Rob Townsend: it it's been a fight we've been fighting. There's been us versus them. It's it's been a war, and
Rob Townsend: oftentimes around one specific issue. Unfortunately. So
Rob Townsend: we have to transition from that stance that posture of of defense, I guess, to to offense, and that we we have been called by God to do God's work, and in our areas, in in our way, and our distinctive Wesleyan way.
Rob Townsend: So we we have to unlearn some of that, I think. Probably we have to unlearn some distrust we have for.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: For our hierarchy, and that will only come over time and with
Rob Townsend: the
Rob Townsend: the accountability and the spirituality of our our appointed leaders, our elected leaders. That's gonna come, and that trust will be developed. So right now there is a season. We have the season of distrust because we haven't trusted them.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Rob Townsend: So we have an opportunity to develop that
Rob Townsend: I think in terms of the learning, though. I. I know that in some corners of our Methodist world we've been. We've been good with church planning, but I really think we have a great opportunity for church planning. You know, we.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: We're we're we're positioned right now to receive former United Methodist churches. You know, we everybody that disaffiliated or or we're able to take advantage of that window, or that that a loophole in the discipline for the season, and that we certainly have some folks that are still under under the lawsuit. But
Rob Townsend: you know, it's gonna change. And we need to say, you know, we don't need growth by transfer. Right? I mean, that's.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: Think we we want to be able to develop
Rob Townsend: good church planning. And and that's gonna take some time. Because
Rob Townsend: in particularly in our area. You know, this is where the Methodist landed. I mean, you know, Delaware, Maryland, my, my area of the mid Atlantic. There are 3 and 4 Methodist churches in tiny little town, you know, of a thousand or 2,000 people, and that's evidence from our splits over the years, you know.
Andy Miller III: Wasn't it?
Rob Townsend: Church. One was an Mp. Church. One was an Emmy South. So in terms of structure, we've always had buildings, but we don't know how to. We don't know how to start a new.
Rob Townsend: a new faith community. And and I don't get me wrong. There have been people that have done that and done that well and and very effectively. So as we tap into that
Rob Townsend: those individual resources, we need to be able to share on a broader, a broader way.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's I love that. I love the emphasis on church planning. I hope that that's something that was exciting to me, as I heard various leaders of the actually Wca. Days before the Gmc. Came around. That was exciting to me to think about their
Andy Miller III: being evangelical Wesleyan expressions in communities that have not had that at the same time, like I. I don't want that for the sake of
Andy Miller III: the institutional, evangelical Wesley community. I I love that that's my tribe. But at the same time, it's for the gospel. It's like the there are people who need to hear the gospel in those communities, and we, as a church, I hope, can be responsive to that. Well,
Andy Miller III: well, a key part of this Rob, is to think about the
Andy Miller III: the way that we understand divine revelation. I'd be curious just to know how you understand inspiration and authority of Scripture and why that's important for this time. That global Methodist church.
Rob Townsend: Well, I I've always said in going back to the fight, the fighting stance that.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: Or our fight. Our argument
Rob Townsend: with our more progressive brothers and sisters was not really over homosexuality. It was over authority of Scripture.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rob Townsend: You know we obviously have, and and Wesley certainly did.
Rob Townsend: But we have a firm belief in the authoritativeness of Scripture, and that's that's really important.
Rob Townsend: You know it is the Word of God is inspired. God used many different people that He gave talents and personalities to, to.
Rob Townsend: to write it, to put it down into, to words, to shape the canon, and so forth. You know. So those personalities come through. Obviously there are regional things that that we see, and you know we have to be good anthropologists. In order to to understand Scripture. I was taught that preaching was
Rob Townsend: learning the the Scripture, you know, unwrapping the cultural surroundings of it, finding the truth of Scripture and then rewrapping it in the cultural surroundings of of the audience, or who's being
Rob Townsend: spoken to. So so that for me is a
Rob Townsend: and understanding that the word of God is true. And it's applicable to all our situations, even though some things may not be specifically written about in Scripture. You know, overall. We understand that
Rob Townsend: Scripture is is true. So it's authoritative for everything that my life involves, all the sins that I have committed, that I that I will commit. You know anything that we have done as a people. It it's it's all there, but there's also
Rob Townsend: Grace, with that.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Rob Townsend: And you know again, with understanding that
Rob Townsend: yeah.
Rob Townsend: the word of God is authoritative, and it calls out sin, but it also allows there to be grace and and of moving towards sanctification as we go through that journey. So yes, it's inspired Word of God absolutely. You know I love
Rob Townsend: something that you know.
Rob Townsend: Dr. Ben Withington would say. You know it's it's it's about a place of truth, and it's worthy, you know. Let's think about it as positives, not as negatives. It's not.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: Inerrant so much as it is. It's it's trustworthy. It's true, you know, why, that this applies, and it stands the test of time. That's
Rob Townsend: books written thousands of years ago, are still applicable to our lives, and ultimately it's living. It is. It is new. Every time you open it.
Rob Townsend: I I tell my congregation, you know you could read the same passage of Scripture 10 times
Rob Townsend: over the course of a year, or even a month, and I guarantee you. There's going to be several different readings and several ways in which God is going to engage you through that Scripture based upon what's going on in your life right then and there.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. You said something there that you said. It's not an errant. So I'm I'm curious about that. That that's obviously a live debate, and I've in the at Wesley Biblical Seminary. We use the Chicago statement on errantcy. Many Wesleyans were a part of that statement. Luzon Covenant, Asbury Seminary says that the Bible's about errand all it affirms. We have something similar here, but I'm curious about that.
Rob Townsend: Yeah, I definitely affirm that. And I and I believe that they'll they'll they'll.
Andy Miller III: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Rob Townsend: Soon as that slipped out of my mouth I thought, Oh, gosh! You know, that's I'm sorry.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, I have a little radar up for that. Yeah.
Rob Townsend: But but I I
Rob Townsend: I I know that the debate that we had particularly over homosexuality.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: The the idea that is is this is Scripture authoritative in our life? Is it something that is applicable to our lives today? Or is it just a really nice moral book? Yeah, for the longest time I argued with my progressive brothers and sisters, you know. Hey, you guys just need to read the Bible, that's all you know.
Rob Townsend: The questions will be answered. And then, as I formed relationships with them, I realized they did read the Bible, and that what they took away from Scripture was they saw Jesus as
Rob Townsend: being grace giving and full of grace. But they didn't see kind of the other half, you know. So again the the woman
Rob Townsend: the woman caught an adultery. You know. That's a prime example, you know Jesus very clearly said.
Rob Townsend: go and sin no more. He called her action a sin.
Rob Townsend: but then he gave her grace. He let her go. He didn't stone her, you know. He he let her go with Grace. He called her actions in and said, Go and live your life differently than the way you have been living. The living Word transforms us. And it's a powerful, a powerful thing, and it's.
Andy Miller III: Absolutely.
Rob Townsend: Out there. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: At this moment in method is, and it's just a surprise to me sometimes when some scholars want to be clear about what they don't believe about Scripture, and and so my my point is, I want to use the strongest language possible to identify myself as seen it as perfectly
Andy Miller III: clear and without air, in all that it is trying to do. Now that doesn't mean my interpretation is inherent. But at the same time, like I want, I want to affirm that that that work that God wants to do through it
Andy Miller III: will not fail. And so that's why that's why we at Wesley Biblical seminary have emphasized that tradition, and in part like I. I think we probably can't go wrong
Andy Miller III: by a
Andy Miller III: describing our fidelity to Scripture, and so I I hear that coming through, Rob, and what you're saying, too, about the way that God's Word can transform you. You. I like. I like the way you emphasize church planning and move us in a direction of thinking about how we, as a denomination, can help spur that on. There's also approximately 3 billion people in the world who have no access to the gospel of Jesus Christ and
Andy Miller III: Church plan, I think, needs to be a part of how we get there. But how would you give voice to this crisis and mobilize local churches which make up the Gmc. To be responsive to this crisis?
Rob Townsend: That's a that's a great question. I think. I think we have an opportunity as a new denomination, to partner with organizations that are already doing a great job.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rob Townsend: You know, specifically missions organizations. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Rob Townsend: You know. That may be where God calls us in a couple of years, but for right now.
Rob Townsend: why not? Partner, with pull up alongside of. You know, Bible believing organizations that are that understand our theology, that you know our evangelical.
Rob Townsend: But at the same time we're doing a great job. It takes years to pull into a a another society, another culture, and get gain their trust to be able to to share the gospel. And you know the anthropological work that goes on in finding out about particular
Rob Townsend: particular people, groups.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rob Townsend: It would be completely crazy of us to just assume. Oh, yeah, we'll just, you know, gather up a bunch of people and and send them off. That is not right at all. You know we we can partner with some great organizations that are already doing great work.
Rob Townsend: And and the local church can support them financially. They can hear reports from missionaries, they can be involved in so many different ways. There are places where we already have inroads and able to do it as a Gmc. But in terms of the population of the world that has not heard the gospel.
Rob Townsend: we need to do everything we can to to share that gospel, and that would, I think, my
Rob Townsend: a calling would be to partner with some of those organizations that are already doing a great job.
Andy Miller III: And and what is a bishop? What would an interim Bishop, do with that in that?
Andy Miller III: to spur that on.
Rob Townsend: I think part of that is is helping to vet some of those places, you know, to to provide opportunities where maybe the the person in the pew, and the local church may not be able to do that just to to give them kind of an a la carte menu of, you know. Here here are some organizations, and here are some people. If you have a heart for this area of the world or this country, this group's doing a really good job. This group is doing a really good job over here. But to put that before us as a as a global church
Rob Townsend: would be an important part of of the mission for the calling of a bishop.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Andy Miller III: The
Andy Miller III: One thing I'm I'm obviously interested in, and this probably has less to do with any
Andy Miller III: interim, Bishop, but I'm curious of your view, like how important is theological education in the global Methodist church. And and what should it look like? And we have an opportunity to do something new and creative. And who should offer it? I mean, there's all kinds of questions that come at this time in this phase in our history.
Rob Townsend: I wonder why you would ask that question?
Rob Townsend: No, I it it's very important. And reason again, I would say from my experience
Rob Townsend: would be. That's 1 of the things that went wrong in the United Methodist Church for us. The the associated seminaries
Rob Townsend: became very directed by progressive leadership, and everybody. It seemed that we saw coming out of
Rob Townsend: certain seminaries. They all had a certain mindset, and.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: Served as the Board award warning Ministry chair for many, many years, and.
Andy Miller III: Oh, wow!
Rob Townsend: Saw so many people come through the ranks that you know some we we were like. Do they even believe that Jesus is Lord? And and it is crazy to think that should be
Rob Townsend: a foundation that should be a base. So I think the theological education is is extremely important.
Rob Townsend: Now, having said that, I think we've come through a season and an error where
Rob Townsend: somebody that is ordained, that has a masters of divinity which I've always argued. You know, that's a
Rob Townsend: that's a a 90 and 80 h program, you know. That's not just a 2 year, master. That's a that's a much bigger program, because it's so inclusive of all the things that a pastor has to come up with. I I love that our our clergy would have that, but I also know what we're seeing now is a greater emphasis.
Rob Townsend: We're going back to our roots and seeing a fantastic emphasis on local pastors, and we haven't created a class system with which we had in the United.
Andy Miller III: Yup! Yup!
Rob Townsend: Very difficult class system, and the local pastors were
Rob Townsend: treated like second class citizens. And they're not so. The fact that our inaugural annual conferences are now rectifying that by saying you're ordained, and we value everything that you've done.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: But I also think that even even that process, if if you're if you're wanting to go through that process, you know your your Seminary, Wesley Biblical Center. Memory has been at the forefront of
Rob Townsend: Of the course of study program. That's so important for for those individuals that didn't go and receive
Rob Townsend: an Mdiv.
Rob Townsend: So obviously, you know.
Rob Townsend: Wesley Biblical Seminary, I think, Asbury, you know those are the places that are going to be
Rob Townsend: They're going to be the places where most of our folks are going to go and receive their theological education. It's important. Wesley always wanted there to be educated clergy, you know. There was.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Rob Townsend: Even the circuit riders, you know. They they were reading books as they as they rode around on that circuit. So it was. It's very important that
Rob Townsend: we have faith, filled spirit, filled individuals, but we also give them the tools in their toolbox through education as well.
Andy Miller III: I think if you were to spend some time here at the Faculty at Western Biblical Seminary, you'd see that we we would probably suggest that for somebody wanting to serve a church as a as a vocation of ministry, a master of any is the the best route, and also like, forgive me, but it's it's my business. I think it's very important, not just because it's my business, but I think that's why I've devoted my life to it is it's gonna prepare you as best to to be able to serve church as well. But also, I would think
Andy Miller III: 5, 10 years later it'd be great for people to come back and do a a doctor of ministry at a trusted school. That that process of putting yourself in a formative environment is going to be is a part of the ministry itself. At the same time, like I am not so. I I that is, certainly, if if the
Andy Miller III: situation can work out for people to do that. I want that for folks, but we have to be flexible, I think flexible. And so what we've been able to do is come up with at Wbs. A delivery method which means that
Andy Miller III: pastors who are serving maybe by vocationally don't have to pick up and move to come. We would love them to move. Come in, Jackson, we have students who are here who come to our classrooms and participate in our classes live. But if we can still offer the same type of education, not a weekend seminar where you write a little reflection paper, but real
Andy Miller III: academic, accredited educational experiences that that's going to equip pastors to be able to serve churches better. So we we've been able to be flexible in our model with our delivery, but also with working at the course of study. And i i i like to think that this fits in with the type of things Wesley is doing. That means that not all of our students are going to get Master's degree. They might get a a form of a certificate with us.
Andy Miller III: but at the same time they're getting something at a level which will help them serve the church. And that's ultimately why we we have to kind of look back at? Why do we exist? And why do seminaries exist? And we suggest it's to develop trusted leaders for faithful churches.
Andy Miller III: alright, commercial for Wbs over. Forgive me.
Rob Townsend: I think you're absolutely right, and and certainly the vehicle in which
Rob Townsend: people receive that you know we
Rob Townsend: you don't need to pick up and move, you know. I I went to Seminary, and I picked up and moved and lived in Kentucky for 4 years, you know, and.
Andy Miller III: Too. Yeah.
Rob Townsend: You know. So it if the fact that we are are developing ways.
Rob Townsend: you know this, this
Rob Townsend: medium online and so forth. But we're also. Then one of those distinctive Wesleyan pieces is we. You also have the ability to be in community with one another. And and as you're learning, you're bouncing things off of one another. You're you're proofing other people's work. You're you're doing things that you're learning from one another in that, in that peer, learning that hopefully will continue. For the rest.
Andy Miller III: That.
Rob Townsend: Versus ministry.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Rob Townsend: That's so important that there be accountability groups throughout that that journey.
Andy Miller III: I'm interested in in you, Rob, that you like the way that your work has happened. I'm I'm a Mac. I don't know much about where you serve, but my guess is is that you are in a minority as a
Andy Miller III: as a Conservative. Would that be case in your former conference?
Rob Townsend: Yes. Okay.
Andy Miller III: And but yet you know, God led you to be a a Ds. And a Board of Ministry chair. That's that's
Andy Miller III: that's wild to me. Tell me about that.
Rob Townsend: Well, you know the I I enjoyed a time as boom chair. I I love that work, and was a district superintendent for a couple of years under Bishop Peggy Johnson.
Rob Townsend: and then I moved to being the Dcm. For the conference.
Rob Townsend: It was at that point that Bishop Johnson retired, and Bishop Easterling came, and Bishop Easterling had trouble with me being evangelical, and eventually moved me out of the conference office into into the country church that I'm serving now so.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Rob Townsend: Again. You know what what? What some folks
Rob Townsend: want for for bad, you know God takes and and makes something good out of it. So I praise God, for because I I love, I love the congregation that I'm serving. I love the
Rob Townsend: experiences that I had, but I also know that there was a lot of tension on that cabinet, particularly with Bishop Easterling. Yeah.
Rob Townsend: Bishop Johnson allowed there to be
Rob Townsend: again. There are other issues, but they should.
Andy Miller III: Sure, sure.
Rob Townsend: But you know there, allow there to be a healthy discourse in our on our cabinet.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I but it. It says something to probably about your personality. If I just this is the 1st time we've interacted so for your whims from this to be able to enter into these environments and for them to trust you enough to put your position positions. And of course it doesn't always work out like there's somebody who comes in and no Evangelicals. They won't. They don't want presence. So I I think that's a helpful thing. And maybe this question, I think, might be helpful.
Andy Miller III: What do you think the role is of the Gmc. In the wider evangelical world?
Andy Miller III: Is, there is because there's a way that when so many Methodists in Evangelical or Conservative Methodists were in the United Methodism, there was is sometimes hard to participate in that world, because, you know, by the way, we have openly Lesbian bishop, and like, it's hard for them to connect with us and other evangelical traditions because of what was happening in the broad connection. So I'm I'm just curious what you think the gift of Wesleyan theology or the Gmc. Might be to the wider evangelical world.
Rob Townsend: Well, I I think we've already touched on it. I think the accountability part of of how we live our lives is so important. We have had a resurgence of that. We've
Rob Townsend: we have folks, you know. We have great discipleship resources like seed bed, and and those kinds of things that are coming out, that
Rob Townsend: we have this great emphasis on accountability and and small groups. So that's something that that we offer to the world. That's that's distinctively Wesleyan. But there are so many branches of our tribe. Right? You know the Ame and Bz. There are folks that that are conservative that have been continuing to do that. So as we find our place
Rob Townsend: in that Pan Methodism group, I think I think our emphasis can certainly be on that accountability piece and accountability for not just individual clergy and not just individual congregants. But we have an opportunity to have to show accountability of our leadership, something that really nobody else does. Particularly with the Episcopacy, saying, Look, there's term limits with this.
Rob Townsend: You know, the highest thing you can be is is ordained as a as a clergy person. You're an ordained elder, and this might be a role that you serve for a season, and then you come back and do something else for a season, and there's some humility in that. But there's also an acknowledgment of
Rob Townsend: I'm accountable to
Rob Townsend: to the people that that placed you in that position versus having
Rob Townsend: a bishop title for life and not being accountable and going off, you know.
Rob Townsend: running on one platform and then living in another platform. There's no accountability. So I I think that's something we have to offer as well.
Andy Miller III: Beautiful. Well, Rob, is there anything else you'd like to say? Anything? I should have asked you.
Rob Townsend: No, I don't think so. This has been. This has been really fun.
Andy Miller III: Well, I look forward to meeting you in Costa Rica, and I'm thankful that you've been willing to accept this nomination and excited for the future that God has for the global Methodist Church. So thanks for spending time with me today.
Rob Townsend: Thank you. God bless your ministry! I appreciate it so much.