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The Bookmonger Society is a podcast for SciFi/Fantasy readers who get too attached to fictional characters and writers who think too hard. Hosted by Andrea and Leah, it’s a chaotic, craft-focused, and emotionally unregulated conversation about the books we use to escape reality.
Andrea is a writer who never met a cliche she likes. Leah is a first-time podcaster and full-time mom and marketer. Together, they spiral into plot holes, pull apart prose, and ask dangerously real questions.
Alchemised Episode 2
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[00:00:00] Andrea: Leah, welcome back. Happy to be here. Thank you. Uh, thank you for being here, uh, and putting up with me because here is the situation people. I don't love this book and, um, Leah does. And so I am churning, churning my way through and basically going from sexy point to sexy point, just trying to make it to something that I know I'm going to enjoy.
[00:00:23] Andrea: So this particular episode in, in episode two. We are going to stop where I currently am in the book, which is page 4 64. And I know that's not as clean and clear as it was for Manacled, where we did two episodes on the first part, one episode on the second part. Mm-hmm. Like that's much cleaner and easier to follow along with, but I just can't fucking do it.
[00:00:47] Andrea: So instead, we're just making this all about me and we're gonna talk about the place that I am currently in the book, which is page 4 62. Leah is my warning person. Give, give the people the [00:01:00] warning, please.
[00:01:01] Leah: Well, as per the usual, there will be spoilers. So if you don't want to know what happens, um, in this book, please go back, finish it, come back.
[00:01:10] Leah: Join us for the discussion as we rant about all the things we love and hate about the differences between manacled and alchemized. And , also worth noting that there will be. A lot of adult content because there's a lot of adult content in this book and there are two adults talking about said adult content.
[00:01:28] Leah: So if you have little ears in the room, just please be aware.
[00:01:33] Andrea: Yeah, put them to bed. As I mentioned, I'm on page 4 64. You have finished the book though. Yes. And so Leah tries her best not to give any additional spoilers past 4 64, but she does have more context in all of the things. So, you know, I'll do, I'll do my best, but I said don't be surpris.
[00:01:50] Leah: No hard and fast promises.
[00:01:51] Andrea: Yeah. The Book Monger Society is a podcast for sci-fi fantasy readers who get too attached to fictional characters and writers who think way too [00:02:00] hard, hosted by Andrea
[00:02:01] Leah: and Leah.
[00:02:02] Andrea: It's a chaotic, craft, focused and emotionally unregulated conversation about the books we use to escape reality.
[00:02:10] Andrea: Take a seat and welcome to the Society, the book Monger Society.
[00:02:16] Andrea: So page 4 64, as I mentioned, I'm going sexy. Time to sexy time. Basically, I'm just trying to make it to my favorite parts of manifolds.
[00:02:24] Leah: I feel like this is just the wrong genre for you all the way around.
[00:02:27] Andrea: So I, I mean, I like. I like adults fantasy and sci-fi.
[00:02:33] Andrea: Um, I don't love the magic system in this still. It just really, I don't, I, it's very hard for me to picture. Mm-hmm. And I really don't like either of the characters. We're going a little bit a hu here, but like, I do not find either of these two characters super compelling. And they're like, all I've got to hang on to.
[00:02:51] Andrea: So I at least wanna see 'em. Fuck. At this point, like I can at least picture what that's gonna be like. So I'm at, I'm, [00:03:00] I'm happy to go all the way to that. Okay. 4 64. Where that is specifically is that, uh, Draco fucking, such a Draco. Apologize. I miss, I miss him. Um, Kane, uh, gets the. They're not ruins. Right.
[00:03:17] Andrea: What are they called here? They're called, uh, it's an array. An array. That's right. Yeah. Um, he gets his array, which I do think the array thing is like, kind of cool, like that whole concept. Mm-hmm. Um, but he gets an array carved in his back, which we're gonna talk a little bit throughout this episode about manacled, kind of like canon at this point.
[00:03:36] Andrea: Sure. Versus alchemized. But I, I do like that whole. Thing, the carving in the back, the way that it's kind of like a spell that Helena has to fix it. Like, I like all of that stuff. And they do the hot makeout session, uh, where they both get drunk and make out. So that's where I am explicitly, and now I'm just stuck.
[00:03:57] Andrea: So, uh, let's go into the, in the margins [00:04:00] segment. Okay. Which is, you know, things that we're jotting down as we're reading along. And so I'll start here. I'm not a total hater. There are things that I enjoy about the book and one of the things that I do enjoy is the use of the religious elements. Mm-hmm. I think it's more compelling than it was in Harry Potter where it's kind of this nebulous light versus dark.
[00:04:20] Andrea: Yeah. Good versus evil kind of thing. Which is better for a YA audience. And I think the. Maturity level certainly gets amped up by making this religious and social political and mm-hmm. Like different regions and where the money is and all of that stuff. I think it's much smarter and more interesting, so I do like that.
[00:04:40] Leah: Yeah. It becomes much more grounded in who holds the control, who's maintaining the control. Yeah. Who do they want to make sure does not gain any power? Women and enemy number one. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, there's a lot of nods to , even to [00:05:00] our own historical sacred texts, in this book, which is interesting. So there's a lot of layers here.
[00:05:06] Leah: I really appreciated the parallel that they drew between the moons, so Luidia and Luna. Two moons on this planet, two moons on the planet. Mm-hmm. Which we're like, we think is earth in, but kind of not a different whatever, but the mythology that are surrounding them are really around stripping away female like, um, intuition in cycles and really handing the power over to like one day to one ruler.
[00:05:32] Leah: Individual. Yeah. And show, it shows the differences between how women are viewed and how they're supposed to act and what is valued in the female versus the male energy in the two societies, which I thought was just really well done.
[00:05:45] Andrea: Yeah, I like that too. Um, I do, there's one quote that says like, all problems are female problems.
[00:05:50] Andrea: Right? And that's kind of like the same. Shtick as the Bible has, right?
[00:05:56] Leah: Like, uh, women, I do find it interesting that in this [00:06:00] world, female voices are being systematically stripped out, sort of similar to our own history where female voices are systematically stripped out of all important and sacred texts.
[00:06:09] Andrea: Yeah,
[00:06:10] Leah: it's a, it's a good point.
[00:06:11] Andrea: Um, okay, so my second point here is that I still. Like the undertone of the hold fasts and them being just these chosen members and you know, soul chose them to alchemize gold, which of course gold is this brushes. Situation. And then also they can throw their fireballs. So sacred fireballs.
[00:06:37] Andrea: Okay, sorry. Sacred fireballs because from soul, I guess, I don't know. Okay. So I do like that they continue, that Helena continues to see them, and Luke in particular as this like perfect entity and that I like that there are less flashbacks in part one because one of my beefs with. Th manacled was that we had [00:07:00] so many flashbacks.
[00:07:01] Andrea: Yeah. In part one, that I, I kind of like lost interest in part two 'cause I kind of already knew how that story was gonna end. Mm-hmm. I kind of knew how she was gonna get captured and so it just was like less compelling to me. I do like that there are less of them, but one of the flashbacks that is in part one is that Luke is smoking opium, which I immediately, when I saw that, I was like, oh, let's.
[00:07:21] Andrea: That's an aggressive like, 'cause Harry Potter was smoking cigarettes on the roof in Manacled and like now Luke is smoking opium. I was like, well, shit is getting heavier.
[00:07:31] Leah: Well the bigger problem with him smoking opium is that the opium was used as a painkiller. He's now using it recreationally.
[00:07:38] Andrea: That's what it seemed to me anyways, to be like recreational use.
[00:07:41] Andrea: When you have people that are literally like, yeah, you could make their last moments on earth. Not as painful and you're like smoking a joint with, and there's such a
[00:07:49] Leah: shortage of Right painkillers. It's not like there's an abundance anyways,
[00:07:52] Andrea: so Yes, because you guys are not prepped for this, right? And that, you know, that Helena really like, doesn't see it right away.
[00:07:59] Andrea: [00:08:00] Like, I like that. I think that's really smart. And again, I'm hoping there's a big arc where Helena, uh, figures out that like maybe the hold fast aren't as great as they have claimed to be.
[00:08:11] Leah: Ooh, I wanna talk about it so bad and I can't talk to you about it yet. Hurry up.
[00:08:15] Andrea: Okay. Maybe, maybe that's the, the thread that will pull me to the end of this fucking book.
[00:08:21] Andrea: I'm just waiting to talk to you about that because
[00:08:23] Leah: I Okay. You like that aspect of it? I hated that aspect. I really struggled with her like hero worship of the whole fast the whole time because, and I think I said this in one of our previous things. Yeah. So it's in manifold, like she was loyal to her friend.
[00:08:40] Leah: She loved them, but she didn't view them as like these perfect. Right beings that could do no wrong. And that's definitely what we're getting here. It's definitely Charlie Manson vibes.
[00:08:51] Andrea: Oh
[00:08:51] Leah: God.
[00:08:52] Andrea: So you know, it's like cults worship vibes. Totally. Instead of just like, I've chosen to be your friend vibe.
[00:08:59] Leah: And [00:09:00] when you start to consider that all of her friends are people who could.
[00:09:03] Leah: Make her situation better in very real, tangible ways. Yeah. And choose not to anyways. Yes. So the way that she is being used and abused because she is a female minority, um, immigrant, uh, with a power that is considered unsuitable. So then she must be sterilized in order. The whole thing is just, ugh.
[00:09:31] Leah: Aggravating. I can't, I can't. Aggravating. I'm gonna go, come back to your point a little bit about the flashbacks. 'cause I agree. I think narrowing them, limiting them to just a few, um, did work really well. And one of the ways that I enjoyed it was that we don't know exactly how she's going to end up getting captured in IMP prison.
[00:09:52] Leah: Yeah. So in Manacled we did, we kind of had flashbacks that kind of, you know, set the tone. They kind of gave away everything they kind gave away, to be honest. Yeah. Whereas Alchemize, it [00:10:00] didn't. So we know she gets captured. We know she gets taken, but we don't know the how and the why we're gonna keep moving along.
[00:10:05] Andrea: So part two starts with the flashbacks and the love story. So just like in manna called Helena, it becomes pregnant. The memories start to come back to her, and that includes being sworn to Kane. And so just like this is in the margins, we're really like, oop, fast forwarding, uh, quite a bit. ' cause it really like this.
[00:10:24] Andrea: Entire podcast is based on this idea that we're gonna compare alchemize to manifold. And really, like all of that stuff is very, very similar to Manifold. I don't know that it's worth , talking about all of the things. It would
[00:10:36] Leah: be a lot. And I, I even tried to go into Alchemize as its own thing. Yeah.
[00:10:42] Leah: You know what I mean? Like tried not to be entirely biased and I just couldn't, I couldn't help it. Like it's so. It's so very similar. You just can't, you can't not
[00:10:53] Andrea: it,
[00:10:53] Leah: it's,
[00:10:54] Andrea: it's way too similar. Yeah. Like that's because when we were talking about alchemized and you were like, I hope that's an alchemized. [00:11:00] I was like, really?
[00:11:01] Andrea: Like, is this gonna be the exact. Same thing. Yeah. Like exact same books. I was really surprised. And then I was kind of complaining about this on TikTok. I was like, is anybody else not enjoying this book? And I said in there, you know, I just finished Manacled and now I'm started on this. And somebody said, that would be super jarring.
[00:11:18] Andrea: You shouldn't have done that. You should have given it a break. He done fucked up. Yeah. And I, I, and she was like, she was like, that's gotta be super jarring. And I was like. I am, I am jarred. That is exactly,
[00:11:27] Leah: that's a cery jarred.
[00:11:29] Andrea: I was like, that is the perfect verb for how I am feeling jarred. So I do think that the experience of this book, if I had.
[00:11:38] Andrea: Ben, maybe a year past it also would probably have been better, but yeah, that is what, it's
[00:11:45] Leah: soften the edges a bit.
[00:11:46] Andrea: Um, so my last point before we go into this next section dovetails directly into the next section, but I kind of mentioned it already, which is that in Manacled, Hermione wants to use dark magic.
[00:11:57] Andrea: So at the crux of the [00:12:00] tension between Hermione and the order of the Phoenix, the resistance in Manacled is this idea that she is like. Guys. Yeah. Guys, what are we doing here? Yeah. If we just continue to stun them and block the death eaters, we are all going to die. Like we have to eventually kill them too, or there's gonna be nothing left of us.
[00:12:20] Andrea: That's at the crux of it. And then in this one, it's all about the Neals. And so I think let's. Just dive right into this next segment, which we're calling, we've always called it Cannon Who Dat and in Manna called, it was an opportunity for Leah to explain to me that I've never read Harry Potter. All the things that I don't understand, but I think now it's a good opportunity for us to take things that happened in Manacled and compare them to Alchemize and kind of continue what we did in the first episode, which was like, who wore it better from a character perspective.
[00:12:52] Andrea: Who wore it better from a plot perspective is kind of what this is. Yeah. Um, and so I do think that like when we talk [00:13:00] about like the war, the fighting in general, the good versus evil, um, I would say that I have things that I like better about manifold and things that I like better about Alchemized in general.
[00:13:12] Andrea: I'd say alchemized is, it feels more like a grown up story book. Yeah. Things feel a lot more. Mature maybe. So, like one of my gripes about manifold was I was like, what? Are there like two adults in this war? Yeah. And like what? They don't seem like they have any strategy.
[00:13:29] Andrea: Mm-hmm. In this, it's much more like there's a council, there's maps, they're trying to take ports because if you don't get a port, this is true. You don't have any fucking supplies. Yeah. And you die. Um, and so I liked that there's more. Actual war strategy. Yes. In the fucking war that's happen. Not
[00:13:49] Leah: just the kids going out with wands.
[00:13:51] Leah: There's Yeah,
[00:13:52] Andrea: yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I, I liked that there's, there's more approach to the war. I did, however, [00:14:00] like, I don't know how they're fighting, like the fighting, even though it was kind of like. Adolescent, right? Like curses and boils and like flailing flash. Like it's, that's because they didn't feel adolescent?
[00:14:11] Andrea: No, that part didn't, but you know what I mean? Like, like this feels darker and more serious, but I don't really understand how they're fighting. Like are they casting? Like, the thing that I do understand is py easy? Yeah. Like fireballs. Okay. Totally got it. But the resonance to me, I'm like sweet in just like hazah forcing over a field like I, it's very hard for me to envision.
[00:14:35] Andrea: What this looks like. Mm-hmm. Including when Helena then is in the hospital, it's a lot less clear to me what the actual, like what is actually happening to the bodies, what is the scene? Mm-hmm. It's much, much harder for me to understand. So it's a mixed bag for me personally on this one,
[00:14:51] Leah: I, okay. I am not someone who actually like, I dunno, loves.
[00:14:56] Leah: A bunch of battle scenes. So I like wasn't upset that we didn't spend a lot of time on this, to be [00:15:00] honest, but based on the wounds and based on what we could gather about what was going on in the war, it seemed like it felt, aside from the piman sea, much more like traditional in a sense, like people fighting with weapons.
[00:15:12] Leah: Did, are they,
[00:15:13] Andrea: I like totally missed this.
[00:15:14] Leah: Oh yeah. They all got swords and
[00:15:16] Andrea: they do. Yes. Okay. Really? Yes.
[00:15:21] Leah: They have swords. Yes. I mean, I know they have armor. Yes. Lila is like notorious for like her big ass swords.
[00:15:31] Andrea: Huh?
[00:15:31] Leah: Am I like, am I off
[00:15:33] Andrea: on this? Uh, probably not, but I, I do not recall practice any sword play.
[00:15:40] Andrea: Like there's, there's like a scene where Helena's watching Luke practice and she like goes into depth about. Like how you know you need a certain amount of oxygen in order for him to like get his fireballs at the right trajectory or whatever the fuck
[00:15:56] Leah: is happening there. I mean, but then also they create weapons [00:16:00] that specifically are attuned to their residents.
[00:16:02] Leah: Have you gotten to that part yet? I don't think so. Oh my God. See, this is the problem. You're not far enough along. So then Kane is going to. Uh, knives that are specifically attuned to Helena. So she, he does,
[00:16:13] Andrea: they do that scene, they do the one scene with the knife, right? 'cause she gets the knife in order to protect herself because they've released the goblins into the goblins, the goblins, the chime, the chimera, the goblins, whatever.
[00:16:27] Andrea: Um, just like the, the last cannon, I explain the things. The way that I think about them, and then you correct me. And so they release the goblins into the swamp. And so she has, um, a sword, or, no, not a sword. She has a little knife and Kane basically like bends it and is like, this thing fucking sucks.
[00:16:47] Andrea: That's, that's what I got so far. Okay.
[00:16:48] Leah: Well, there's more to come. All right. I'll wait for it. Okay. But overall, as far as like the successfulness of, you know, how she portrays the [00:17:00] war in the book. Let's talk a little bit about dark magic versus necromancy, because it does make the whole war feel much heavier.
[00:17:11] Leah: It feels a lot darker and in manacled it feels a little bit more cut and dry in a sense, like you're saying, like this look good versus evil. Like you stand for the good or, and there is definitely a lot of that here. But as a reader in manifold, you're like, dude, you will inevitably lose if you don't use dark magic.
[00:17:34] Leah: Yeah. It's just common sense, right? Whereas in this one, I think as a reader, you're natural instinct is to Yeah, be kind of like horrified by the idea of Navajo Nancy. So we
[00:17:44] Andrea: do have to kind, I think we have to explain. Because I, I sort of breezed over what Helena's trying to do. Okay. So you explain, you explain what Helena, why, why everyone gets so mad at her at council.
[00:17:56] Leah: Okay. Yeah. So the reason that she is the black sheep among all the other [00:18:00] things that were listed previously is that she believes that people should have the choice to essentially, like donate their dead bodies to the order to, be turned into Neals because the alternative is that the enemy is going to do it, and then their bodies will be used to fight the people that they love.
[00:18:19] Leah: So rather than doing that by force, Helena's stance is that we should give people the option and if they would like their bodies to be used to fight, to protect their family rather than against them, they should have that, that option.
[00:18:32] Andrea: Right. So I got to the scene where Kane six, his neck withdrawals on.
[00:18:38] Andrea: Helena to see how she fights and she just basically like destroys them all in a fit. I don't know. I was a little confused how she did it. Again, I don't really understand how resonance like kind of explodes or works. I don't know how it works, but like, and so then I was kind of like, P these things seem lame.
[00:18:55] Andrea: Like she just destroyed like 20 knocker falls without even trying, right? I mean, who [00:19:00] cares about these? But they seem like a bag of bones. Blah, whatever, you know. So I just was like, I don't know. I, but I, I guess ultimately it's, it's fine. Like, you know, you need something that she needs to believe in and like the negro all thing.
[00:19:15] Andrea: I don't know. It's fine. Um, should we move on to Kane's mommy and Daddy issues? We should always talk about case buying daddy issues. I'll just talk about the dad. 'cause I don't know anything about the mom yet. I haven't been educated really. I mean there's like some talk about it, but I'm sure there's gonna be more about it.
[00:19:33] Andrea: Yeah. Later. Um, so I haven't gotten there yet. His name is Atri Faron and he's in. Th khor, crow, Thor ths, roers, crower, crowthers body. And this happens like pretty early. We, uh, in the whole book, you find out that K Crower isn't K crowther, but then you find out that it's Kane's dad. And I actually, I like, love this.
[00:19:59] Andrea: I think, [00:20:00] I'm not a big fan of the magic system, but I do like the idea that you can inhabit the body of your enemy. Like that's pretty belt. Pretty fucking baller and I'm interested in how Kane's dad. Lo lost his body. 'cause they explained that, uh, there is this whole, you know, you are undying, but you can only withstand so much, I don't know.
[00:20:21] Andrea: Deterioration.
[00:20:22] Leah: Yeah.
[00:20:22] Andrea: On your body before you have to give it up and go into another one. And I really like, there's this, uh, show called Altered Carbon, which it should be called sleeves because the idea of it is that you have a sleeve, which is the human body essentially. Okay. And you can swap. And it's like very common sci-fi thing, right?
[00:20:40] Andrea: Like your consciousness is in like a little disc and you just pop it into the back into your body. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I just like that concept in general. So I was into this, I liked
[00:20:49] Andrea: it.
[00:20:49] Andrea: Okay.
[00:20:50] Leah: I was, um, I hated crowder and so there was a part of me that was like, yeah, second [00:21:00] Crawford, you get to. You get to be inhabited by another asshole, by another asshole the whole time sitting, because I felt like they tried to make him like a morally great character.
[00:21:10] Leah: I'm like, no,
[00:21:11] Andrea: I hate him. No, I don't feel a lot of passion about him yet. I mean, I don't like him, but I don't loath him either. I'm. Fairly indifferent to him. Okay. Right this minute. Alright,
[00:21:21] Leah: well I'm curious if that stays or if that changes. Yeah. So we will circle back to feelings about gravity. Sounds good.
[00:21:27] Leah: Okay.
[00:21:27] Andrea: Um, moving on to another character, the, the wife Aurelia. And again, this is like another thing that really it just follows the exact same storyline of Manacle. She hates he Elena, she wants to poke her eyeball out. She approaches and the big question is like, how is Kane gonna do this? Because he can't just operate in there, so it's like, Ooh, how is he gonna do it?
[00:21:50] Andrea: Yeah. And basically he like, he like tells his house to build her a cage and squash her. It was so cool. It was really good. It was so cool. It was [00:22:00] really good. That's like a good amount of pain I felt like for this. For this witch to,
[00:22:05] Leah: uh, get, I didn't know how they were gonna make that scene as cool as it was in, oh, it's much cooler and it's even cooler.
[00:22:14] Leah: It's much cooler. I was very impressed. Yeah, very impressed.
[00:22:17] Andrea: Yeah, I liked the idea because you brought up like, oh, I like that the house is kind of sentient. And I was like, I don't really get that. It's sentient to me it feels more like just able to be controlled by the people that live there. Um, and so yeah, I was like, oh, it's pretty dope.
[00:22:31] Andrea: It is pretty cool. It's pretty
[00:22:32] Leah: cool.
[00:22:32] Andrea: And I like in general too, I, we didn't really talk about it, but like they can. You know, the house like shifts, how it looks. I think that's like a cool visual that, you know, sometimes it looks like a cage. And
[00:22:43] Leah: I think when it becomes a TV show, um, that's going to yeah, be excellent, be fantastic.
[00:22:50] Leah: Yeah. Also, before we move on from Aurel, I just, I just want to point out that my whole diatribe [00:23:00] about her in our previous manacled episodes about like my stance on her. Being grown up in a household where she did all the right things and made all the right choices. And yes, while we don't like her as a character, I also understand where she's coming from.
[00:23:16] Leah: She basically had that whole speech in Alchemies and I was like, yes.
[00:23:23] Andrea: Yeah. Um, I felt like it was overwrought though. It's like, okay, so what she says in Alchemized is. She had two sisters, they got aborted because they didn't have any resonance. Mm-hmm. And so I, and she's like, I was literally born to marry Kane.
[00:23:43] Andrea: And I was like, okay, whatever. But like, not by her choice, like her whole life
[00:23:49] Leah: was decided for her. I know. But I
[00:23:51] Andrea: just don't tend to enjoy any character that has just no fucking agency. Okay. That is fair. You know what I mean? Like, yes. [00:24:00] Literally like, okay, fine. You were, you were born for this. But like a, I mean, it's fine.
[00:24:06] Leah: I, I, it gave her a little bit of like, texture that she was missing, so I appreciate, appreciated the extra context. So I thought that was successful.
[00:24:16] Andrea: Let's keep it moving. Um, my 0.4 is that, um, I do, as we talked about in the first episode, I think Stroud is a stronger character here, and I do like that.
[00:24:25] Andrea: There are some parallels between Stroud and Helena, and again, as you know, I'm looking for that arc baby. I'm looking for it, and I feel like Stroud is kind of explaining a thing or two to Helena mm-hmm. About this world in this kind of. Sage, um, character and I had, there's another Char sage character, um, called Pace Later, and I, I like that, like I live for Hermione and Draco.
[00:24:51] Andrea: However, it is sort of boring that Draco's the only person who can help. Hermione see things in a different light. Mm-hmm. And I like [00:25:00] that there are more characters that are impacting our protagonist. Yeah. Here and like giving perspective. Yeah. So I like that.
[00:25:07] Leah: I did appreciate that Stout was a more complex character and you could see her resentment for Helena made sense.
[00:25:15] Leah: Yeah. I understood why she would hate Helena and think that she was a traitor. Uh, and that provided. You know, I don't know, just some more layers that I appreciated overall. Like Strout is still evil, but Totally. I appreciate that. We could understand why.
[00:25:32] Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I agree. All right, my next point, we've already talked about the ruins, AKA, the array on the back, the healing, the makeout.
[00:25:40] Andrea: The one thing that is different, um, meaningfully here is that. When Helena sees Kane, he's like a 16-year-old boy. Oh yeah. I was like, that, that is a brave choice. As a 40-year-old woman, I was like, it's, it's, it's another [00:26:00] element that made me go, I don't know if I can get
[00:26:03] Leah: behind this version.
[00:26:05] Andrea: Yeah, because same, I'm not gonna be attracted to somebody who looks.
[00:26:09] Andrea: 16. But I do like that. And we, we raed on the idea of, um, Hermione in Manacle losing her virginity and bleeding all over and this like physical transformation. But I did think that that worked here. I like the idea that after the physical healing of him, he gets some gray hairs, his body looks more mature.
[00:26:32] Andrea: He appears to have been. I, I, I don't know if he looks like 25, 26 now, I don't know if he, I don't think he looks like 40. I don't know. But he's an adult. But he's an adult. And now I can be attracted to the Makeout. So I thought that was really important for, for them to do before the Makeout session. And I was a little bit worried.
[00:26:48] Andrea: I was like, when is he going to age? Because otherwise I'm not gonna be able to get into it. Um, and so I liked that transformation with Kane and the, I, I [00:27:00] actually, I just think that, that like physical representation of. The sort of spell that the array is casting. I, I was like, okay, I, I like that entire thing.
[00:27:11] Andrea: I think that's stronger than it was in manifold. Yeah, I thought so too.
[00:27:16] Leah: But yeah, the whole aging thing made me think back to like Twilight, where like he's stuck at, is he 17? I wanna say someone called someone correct me if that's not right. And she's worried Edward. Yeah. Okay. And she's worried about like aging past him, right?
[00:27:31] Leah: 'cause he's like. Immortal. And so she's worried about like becoming like an old lady and Right, yeah. Becomes a cougar situation. Right. Um, but like, also, he's like legally, like a minor, so complicates things a lot. And they came out with, we just saw, so at Costco they have a new like, I don't know, 20 year anniversary or whatever, like, I don't know how long ago it was.
[00:27:55] Leah: And they have artwork that shows the two characters and you look at it and go, oh my God. They're like children. And then you [00:28:00] realize, oh my God, they are children. And you just forget that as you grow, like I'm old now, gets worse and worse. So anyway, it never gets better. Okay, so my last point, I just want, so there are a few characters in here that I thought, uh, were just really successful.
[00:28:17] Leah: So I liked how more, how much more complex Lila was. , You get to see her grow up in a, you know, obviously very misogynistic society in a role where she sh as a woman shouldn't be able to hold a position that she does. And so the first time she makes any sort of mistake, she's kicked out and they kick her out of her position.
[00:28:36] Leah: But if the rules had been reversed, this wouldn't have been a problem. Right? So if Luke and her, I don't know
[00:28:43] Andrea: if I'm there yet.
[00:28:44] Leah: Oh, no,
[00:28:45] Andrea: I don't think I'm there yet.
[00:28:46] Leah: Okay.
[00:28:47] Andrea: Or either that or I like missed this. Oh, you
[00:28:49] Leah: wouldn't have missed it. You're close though. You're on page 400. Okay. All right. I won't go into too much detail, but as a woman, there is definitely some [00:29:00] prejudice against her holding the role that she does.
[00:29:02] Leah: However,
[00:29:02] Andrea: yeah, I got that part so, so far okay. But I, she hasn't done anything. I don't. Think to
[00:29:06] Leah: get her kicked out of it. Okay, well you would know. So we'll, we'll circle back around that to another episode. But you layer that on top of the fact that she also comes from a family that has a huge amount of privilege.
[00:29:17] Leah: Mm-hmm. And you compare her to Helena, like they have this whole conversation around like, oh, after the war, you know, you can just do this or that. Right. You can just have a family. You can just like be a local healer and he Helena's like doesn't even bother to correct her. Right. Doesn't even like, just lets it be, even though all of the, the mistakes that Lila makes will not ultimately impact her whole life.
[00:29:47] Leah: She has other options. Like it will impact her life. I'm not saying that, but she has other options that Helena does not. Yeah. And so it's just interesting to see those dynamics between them throughout part two [00:30:00] especially.
[00:30:00] Andrea: Alright, moving on. This next segment is the writer's desk. Um, we're gonna talk about just like some shit, I think specifically as writers that probably colors the way that I, in particular, uh, read this, but I'm sure you too.
[00:30:18] Andrea: Uh, but I'll just speak for myself right now. Um, so, you know, I still don't love either of these two characters. There are like redeeming things, I guess, about Helena, right? Like I get she's an outcast. Mm-hmm. I get like Hermione, she has to work really hard, but otherwise, like, she's basically a brainwashed cult follower, which just isn't that interesting to me.
[00:30:38] Andrea: I also further do not hate Kane. In the first 50 pages of Manacled, I was like, house in Lyu is gonna. Make me root for these two is gonna be a fucking miracle. I can't stand this man. Yeah, yeah. Like in, in the first 50 pages and like, he's not even in the first like 20 pages, right? So like in the first, like in, in, in, I [00:31:00] don't know, like 10 pages of manic cults, I really get a visceral hatred for Draco and came
[00:31:07] Leah: to me as like, do you think any part of that though is because you went in with contact?
[00:31:14] Leah: I don't think so. I think it's
[00:31:15] Andrea: because he's not a bully to Helena in like high school. Okay. Like they're just kind of Yeah, they're, they're like, they're not even, I don't know if rivals is even the right word. Like they're both number one and number two, but you don't get the background that he picks on her.
[00:31:32] Andrea: So like that already is missing. And then two, he's not as vicious. To her when she first comes to live with him. And he also doesn't have to start raping her right away like Draco does. And I think knowing that they obviously have a relationship in part two, it's more believable, but it is less emotional.
[00:31:53] Leah: Yeah, I can see that. I, I mean, and I said that even too in the previous episode, like when we were [00:32:00] comparing who wore it best? Yeah. Right. Uh, nobody wears it. Like Draco and Draco and Hermione just have an, I don't know, there's just something really special about it, but this is still well done and it kind of, and it definitely breaks the mold of other books in this genre, which.
[00:32:17] Leah: I appreciate, I wanna talk a little bit about their character arcs a little bit. 'cause I know that this is a sticking point for you. Yes. Um, I like an arc. I came across this creator on Instagram. Um, shout out to Emily Reads a lot and she had this reads a lot. Yeah. Perfect. But she had this great character analysis between Helena and Kane and, um, it stuck with me.
[00:32:44] Leah: She's like, they're not meant to have character arcs because they represent certain ideologies. Okay. Okay. And so in this sense, Cain represents destructive nihilism, which is basically like everything is meaningless. Meaningless, nothing [00:33:00] matters. Yeah. The universe does not care. A lot of nihilists out there today.
[00:33:04] Leah: You know what? I have my days. Um, Helena on the other hand, is represented as a creative. Existentialist. Mm-hmm. And which is basically like the meaning of life is that you get to give life meaning. Right? And so there is this conversation that perfectly encapsulate this, I believe, between Helena and Cain.
[00:33:25] Leah: And he again is like, don't go back to the hold fast. They don't care about you. And he's like, none of it matters, right? The universe does not care. This is a cruel and evil place, and the universe does not care. And Helena basically responds as well. I care. Mm-hmm. And I am part of the universe. And so therefore, a part of the universe is always going to care.
[00:33:49] Leah: Right? And so that's kind of like the foils of each other in that sense. And so her goal, his goal is just to protect her. And his, her goal is [00:34:00] to win by any means necessary, right? To protect like humanity and the people she loves by any means necessary. So they attack the same problem. Basically from two very different viewpoints.
[00:34:13] Leah: Um, which I, I found kind of refreshing. Like they just were who they were. And I know I said that in the last one, but I stand by it. I, yeah, I, I still feel good about it.
[00:34:26] Andrea: Yeah. I
[00:34:27] Leah: like change in characters.
[00:34:29] Andrea: I just can't help it. I mean, I, I do, yeah. I like change in people in general. Right. I, and I'm not an ILS, I don't know, I might have cut this out of the episode, but like, I think we're here to help each other learn and grow.
[00:34:40] Andrea: And if you're not going to do one of those things, what, like, especially if you're on dying, you're gonna live like literally for eternity and not ever learn a lesson.
[00:34:49] Leah: Come on.
[00:34:50] Andrea: Yeah.
[00:34:50] Leah: Yes, yes. There should be some maturity there, which is yes. I also think it's worth highlighting in this section that [00:35:00] Helena.
[00:35:01] Leah: Is a deeply morally gray character. And I don't think that's highlighted enough. Like she is, you know, to your point, sort of like this cult follower, but she also does a lot of harm. Yeah. And she uses her healing abilities to cause a lot of harm. Whereas on the flip side, Kane uses his destructive abilities to actually create a lot of good.
[00:35:25] Leah: Mm-hmm. Um, and so. She is a deeply unreliable narrator for that reason because her atrocities are sort of like glossed over and his are, you know, portrayed in vivid detail, which, yeah, which I found really interesting. Alright.
[00:35:40] Andrea: I love an unreliable narrator. Oh yeah. Point number two is, um, I very much also, again, I, this is.
[00:35:47] Andrea: You'd think I'd like this book. 'cause I have a lot of things that I do enjoy about this book. The second point is I really like the increased stakes in the baby. So as it turns out this, what [00:36:00] is the fucking thing that they have the high necro answer and Helena. So that the like Animan, is that what they have that when she makes a baby?
[00:36:09] Andrea: Because the whole thing is that you can take someone's body, but their resonance stays the same. So if you are APY Romancer and you take somebody's body who doesn't have py romance, you don't get to Py romance anymore. So
[00:36:23] Leah: pie romancing days are over.
[00:36:25] Andrea: I, I like, I, I like calling it pi romance instead of PI because is it PI Romance?
[00:36:30] Andrea: I don't, I don't think I'm putting the right emphasis on the right sable. But anyways, the point is that you don't get to do that thing anymore and the high Necromancer wants to continue his necromancy. Right. Yeah. And his animan, does he have Animan? Yes. So, okay. So he needs a baby with like this great skillset, basically this natural skillset.
[00:36:51] Andrea: And there's not a lot of options and that's part of the reason that it's so important for Helena to get unsterilized so that [00:37:00] she can have a baby with cane because where their powers combined right. Are gonna, don't have that power. Gonna be the perfect vessel. Yeah. For the higher necromancer to come into, which I think is just like.
[00:37:09] Andrea: Such a diabolical turning up of the like, holy fucking shit. That's, yeah, I loved that. I was like, well, that's, that's a really slick increase
[00:37:21] Leah: in the stakes there. I agree. I I, I mean, the whole concept was so disturbing. Because in Manacle there's obviously a deep threat to the baby because it will, because of this world.
[00:37:30] Leah: Because of this world, and it can become an experiment and, um, all of those things. But in this story, no, there is a, like a very real, very horrifying outcome for this baby. Like very specific and made it more viscerally terrifying. Yeah, because you know what's going to happen to the baby. Not like some am ambiguous, like.
[00:37:52] Leah: Oh, they're gonna be tested on somewhere.
[00:37:54] Andrea: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I did, however, have this thought about interview with the Vampire [00:38:00] one of the rules Yeah. In that book is you do not make children into vampires because they don't
[00:38:03] Leah: age. So they're stuck at whatever maturity they're at.
[00:38:05] Leah: Yeah.
[00:38:06] Andrea: Right. And so. They, but they laslow breaks that rule and makes Claudia a vampire. Mm-hmm. Which if you've seen in the movie, is like the Kirsten Dunst character. Mm-hmm. And it drives her fucking insane. Mm-hmm. Because she has the mind of a woman in a, like, I don't know how old she is.
[00:38:21] Andrea: Like a prepubescent child.
[00:38:24] Leah: Right. I would say, wasn't she like eight or nine? I think so. Something like that. Yeah,
[00:38:28] Andrea: yeah, yeah. So like I, and so I was sort of like, so wait is the necro high Necro are gonna wait for the kid to grow? Up and then at like one age, do you
[00:38:37] Leah: decide they're
[00:38:38] Andrea: like, yeah, mature
[00:38:40] Leah: enough, or like he goes into the baby?
[00:38:43] Leah: No, because that is even creepier. That's even worse. However, because of what happened to Kane because his aging froze. Right. It stands to reason that the baby would not, wouldn't age. Age.
[00:38:56] Andrea: Yeah. All right, so this is my last point before we go into darker marks and darker thoughts, [00:39:00] um, dark marks, darker thoughts.
[00:39:01] Andrea: Anyways, there's a lot that the book is trying to do and I do. Think that it could be massively simplified and shortened, and I would enjoy it much, much more. To me, a lot of it feels like they're trying too hard. Like it's, it feels to me like just because you researched it doesn't mean that it has to come in the book.
[00:39:25] Andrea: Like it really should have a like very specific purpose. At one point there's like. Talk of crystals and precious stones, and I'm like, we already have metal. We already have bringing people back from the dead. We have that little thing that the Ments puts into people's bodies to make them live forever that are probably like the horse crux we already have.
[00:39:42] Andrea: So fucking much Leave the crystals, leave them away. Stop talking about stones and fucking crystals, like please. Keep it to the eight elements that you already have and let's just keep it moving. But I think like those elements a lot of time and like there's all the [00:40:00] stuff about the moons and then like the real I, I'm like, okay, like I just need you to focus a little bit more on the stories.
[00:40:07] Andrea: So to me, a lot of these elements that feel like they're trying too hard. Really just like pull me away from the character in a way that I really do not enjoy. Like I mostly want to know this, these characters, and I feel like I get an overwrought explanation of like everything in this world. Instead,
[00:40:28] Leah: I am actually torn on this point.
[00:40:30] Leah: So on one hand, yes, I do genuinely feel that the magic system could have been condensed and simplified. A bit, but I do see send Lenu in like a similar category to like Vie Blake or RF Kwang. And when people read their books, it's typically a love or hate situation. Yeah. Like if you go look at their reviews, they have like a lot of five stars and a lot of one stars and people either like, oh my God, this is like God to your fiction.
[00:40:57] Leah: Or people are like, oh my God, [00:41:00] like do they have, it's like they're trying to prove how smart they are. Like we get it. I, I love olive eat blanket. Like I eat that you're a five. You're a five star. I'm a five star. Yeah. So I also think people just kind of fall into one camp or the other.
[00:41:14] Leah: Yeah, sure. And that's okay. On the flip side of that, I feel like right now the genre is sort of overwrought with what I would consider like overly simplified like plots and characters. I'm not going to point any out 'cause I don't wanna put anybody on blast. But uh, writing is hard. Writing is really hard, you know, we understand.
[00:41:34] Leah: Yes. So critiques are made with love and, you know, you put your heart and soul into something and created something put out in the universe and I applaud that, whether I enjoyed it personally or not. That being said, I was a very early adopter of Fourth Wing. I dunno if you read that one. I loved it. I consumed that book in like.
[00:41:54] Leah: 24 hours. And I read that book, I think faster than any book, for the [00:42:00] previous 10 years. And I then went into a rabbit hole, like trying to find something similar, like to fill the fourth wing hole. And after reading dozens honestly, of romantic books, I realized I don't actually know if I actually like the genre.
[00:42:14] Leah: I just like. Fourth week. Yeah. Yeah. I find that in a lot of time in this genre, they try to oversimplify to appeal to as many people as possible. And in my opinion, it makes it less successful. Strong opinion. Nice. I
[00:42:29] Andrea: like that. Um, alright, I, we're gonna end here with, I have one dark thought. Okay. And this is fucking dark, so Helena does get away, , without being raped for a long time.
[00:42:44] Andrea: Unlike Hermione, which it happens early and constantly. Yes. And after her initial rape, uh, Stroud is talking to her about it, and Helena did not enjoy it. Helena's very upset about this. It makes 100% sense,
[00:42:59] Leah: but [00:43:00] knew,
[00:43:00] Andrea: and Stroud says, not surprising, you're high strung. And I just was like, oh.
[00:43:07] Andrea: The, like, levity there almost felt ew. But not like meaningful, oh, this is how blase stroud is about this. You know?
[00:43:16] Leah: Yeah, no person in the history of ever got raped and was like, you know what? That would've been easier had I been like more type B about it. If only I was a different kind of person. I'd really enjoy this. This would have been so much smoother.
[00:43:30] Leah: Like, what the, the fuck no.
[00:43:31] Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's really my last thing there. Um, and then listen, our, our final segment is always to be continued. Mm-hmm. And like. I'm just gonna keep on chugging along and I'm gonna keep finding things that get me interested in this. I will also say again, for the record, um, wouldn't be doing it without you.
[00:43:51] Andrea: Uh, and I'm glad we're, we're back to doing this.
[00:43:54] Leah: I'm excited and we have so much more to unpack for the next episode. Yes, yes.
[00:43:58] Andrea: So I will, [00:44:00] I will endeavor to get through, uh, section two, maybe even finish the whole book, and we'll just do one final episode. Listen, this is the chaos that you, um, maybe are subscribed to.
[00:44:10] Andrea: Do. You know, we have like, oh. Over 30 subscribers on YouTube. But listen, okay, so we have like 30 YouTube subscribers. We've had like 50 people download the podcast. You have how many people on Instagram? I about 32 actually. Yeah. So Leah's the Instagram person. I'm the YouTube person. TikTok, I think we've got like 20 or something.
[00:44:32] Andrea: I've only posted like two videos. Um, so listen, uh, we, we do nothing really to promote this. So for those of you that have found us on the internet, just thanks and share it with a friend you think would enjoy it and otherwise subscribe and we'll keep, we'll keep doing it and, oh, um, we don't know what we're doing after this.
[00:44:52] Andrea: So if you have a recommendation Oh yeah. For what we should do, what book we should read next,
[00:44:57] Leah: let us up, let us know. We, we would love your [00:45:00] recommendations. So yes, if you have recommendations for what we do next, we would love to hear that. And also I wanna give a little shout out to Emily Kerig on Instagram who came back with some really thoughtful insights and questions.
[00:45:09] Leah: So appreciate you.
[00:45:11] Andrea: Yeah. I don't have the people who have commented on YouTube, uh, uh, in front of me, but I, I, listen, we're trying to figure out what to do, how to involve you more.
[00:45:19] Andrea: Now that you're
[00:45:19] Andrea: all lovely because here's the thing, you're lovely. I was on the TikTok like two summers ago.
[00:45:25] Andrea: I was, I was doing a bunch of TikTok stuff and people on TikTok are, can be fucking mean and ruthless. And so I've just been like, I don't even wanna read comments. I don't even know. But all of you people are lovely that have been commenting and engaging. So we love you, you keep doing it.
[00:45:41] Andrea: All right, thanks. Bye. Bye.