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Nick Gurney and Sagan Woodbury talk about how the Woodbury family has been helping locals and tourists find the perfect piece of jewelry in Park City, Utah for years. Sagan tells the story of how the store's ability to create custom jewelry allows them to pack a big punch from a small location. By extending the customer relationship beyond the few minutes they have with customers in store. Woodbury Jewelers online presence and tools allow them to boost sales before customers come to the shop and after they have gone home.
In the Master Stones podcast, we have conversations with jewelry retailers from across the country about the challenges they face and what solutions they’ve found to overcome those challenges and succeed.
[00:00:22] Nick: Well, Sagan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Everybody, we're joined by Sagan Woodbury, the co-owner of Woodbury Jewelers in Park City, Utah. Sagan, thanks for being here. We really appreciate it.
[00:00:32] Sagan: Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity.
[00:00:35] Nick: Cool. So here on the Master Stones Podcast, we like to talk to retailers from all over the country about ways that their business operates. The idea is that as jewelers, we can learn together, right? And we can grow together and we can succeed together. And so we really appreciate you being willing to come on, chat with us a little bit about your business, ways that you might do things differently and, you know, we can talk about topics that are prominent in the industry right now, things like this big looming recession that we're looking at, you know, right down the end of this year.
[00:01:03] Sagan: Oh. Yeah.
[00:01:03] Nick: And so I'm really excited about that. But before we kick all of that off would, you mind just giving me a little bit of background of Woodbury Jewelers and then a little bit more about your store?
[00:01:12] Sagan: Yeah, so honestly, my parents started the store about 10 years ago, but we all have worked, gall, in Park City for over 20 years. My business partner, he's been on the street for about 30 years. We're just right on Main Street, Park City. And it's a little different type of world, I should say, than like the typical jeweler just because it's very, you know, whoever comes in the door is really who matters.
[00:01:37] It's not so much returning customers, it's people. They're here for a weekend and they're from who knows where, right?
[00:01:44] Nick: Sure.
[00:01:44] Sagan: And so it's a little bit different in that way and it's a little bit higher end. It's obviously being in Park City, we're looking at each thing that we sell is probably, I would say, average is about $2,000 up, where that's usually the top on a lot of jewelers. And so it's a little different, but it's also really fun cuz we are a full custom shop. That's what we do. We just make whatever somebody wants, and our cases are filled, for the most part, with stuff that we make at our shop.
[00:02:14] Nick: Yeah, I love that. You know what, to me it kind of feels a little bit like back to basics of jewelry, right? I own a retail store and I create and I sell those goods. You know, and there's lots of good to say about the bigger vendors in the industry and the designers and all of that. I think they provide great value to the industry, but there's also a lot of value in, I think, driving your own creative side of your business, right? Yeah. So I love that. I love that.
[00:02:38] So, Park City is quite the place. For those that haven't been, it is definitely a destination area. And you point out right there saying, and there's a few key differences. Now one thing that's interesting to me is the fact that you're so focused on custom work. But what you probably live in is a lot shorter sales cycle, right? Because it's people coming there on vacation and holiday. How do those two things intermingle?
[00:03:00] Sagan: So a lot of it, honestly, and this is probably where we, I think, differ from a lot of other companies in touristy areas, is we try to make sure that the person, even though if they're never gonna return to Park City, that they have a good experience. They know what we do, they're impressed by what we do and they're feeling comfortable enough that they're willing to do a Zoom conference call with us, or call us or email us and say, “Hey, I've got X amount of stones. I want to do this. I really liked how you did this design. Can you do that with my design?”
[00:03:31] And, you know, contact us maybe six months down the road, a year down the road. And it's more that, does that make sense? So it's a little bit of both. It's still gonna be that we have people that'll come in and that all they want to do is they see something, they buy it, it's done and it's finished. And that's great. And then there's other people that are like, you know what, I'm gonna call you in about a year. Is that okay? I like what you're doing, but I'm not ready yet.
[00:03:53] So a lot of the time we've maybe met somebody once and in person. I mean, I've had people where I've worked with them, talk to 'em once and I've probably done five different pieces of jewelry for 'em. And they live in California. They do their thing, you know, or wherever it may be. But then they come back to us cuz we still become their jeweler cuz they like that we do something a little different.
[00:04:16] Nick: I love that. I think that's fantastic. I think a lot of jewelers, maybe those listening to this podcast, especially those in touristy areas, are just gonna assume that I have to put all of my effort into this one-time sales transaction, right? And just hope that the tourist season stays busy and understand there's gonna be seasonality to my business. But you guys have taken a little bit different of approach there and I love that.
[00:04:38] You know, you mentioned there that technology like Zoom is playing a role in your design and your sales process. Is there any other technologies that help you succeed in your business?
[00:04:49] Sagan: There is. Honestly, I would say, not trying to give a shameless plug, but one of the things that drew us to Jewel360 is having everything on our website. That's something that we haven't been able to do before. It's like people will ask, okay, hey, do you have everything on here if I wanna order it? And we're like, no. You know? Like we've got like 50%. We've got 60%, and that's not good enough. It's gotta be every single piece. They need to be able to come back in six months and go, whoa, you guys did something new. I didn't see this. That's super cool. That's super different. That's unique.
[00:05:22] Buy it and feel confident that's gonna happen. So that's one of the things that we really appreciate, we really like. I would say Zoom obviously is a big thing. Simple as it is. Email, also having a calendar that they can see what's going on for them. They can set appointments, we can set appointments back with them. They say, Hey, I want to come in on the 22nd, you got it. Or I want to do a Zoom conference call. let's do it on the third, you know, and at this time and they know that they've got that attention already attributed to them.
[00:05:55] Nick: Yeah. I love that and I think what it all really boils back down to is you need to meet the buyer where they're at, right? We can't expect to just create this great experience in store and just expect all of our traffic to walk in on Monday, right?
[00:06:10] Sagan: Yeah.
[00:06:10] Nick: And so the buyer is not necessarily in the store all the time and we need to go meet them where they're at. You know, most people have done that so far with social media. And that's of course gonna play an important role. The website is gonna play a huge role even if people don't sell online. I think one thing people misunderstand is they create a website and they don't do a bunch of business directly through it day one that they view it as like, oh, this didn't succeed. This isn't a success. But the statistics show that every, not every, but nearly every consumer shops online before they walk in store. They pull up your website and they browse before they step in your store and start looking through your case. And so what you pointed at right there is very important, that they have an accurate idea of your inventory, right? Yeah. Because what we all want is we want somebody walking in, showing us a picture on the website and saying, Hey, do you have this? Yeah. And then you can walk 'em right over to the case and hand it to 'em and say, yeah. Also, here's a few other things you can look at, you know.
[00:07:03] Sagan: Exactly. I think a lot of people, when they have a brick and mortar place and they focus primarily on that, they're like, well, that's all we do. And I hate to say it, my parents were very much like that too, where they're like, this is what we do. We just have five minutes with the person. Then after they walk out, they don't exist anymore. And it's like, no, you want them to have already come in before they've even come in and you want them to stay even after they've left and the only way to do that, like you said, social media, through stuff like that, through a website, things like that. You've gotta take it to that next level so that they're always coming back to you, even if they're not physically there.
[00:07:38] Nick: Yeah, I love that. There's a lot of relationship in jewelry. Most people who shop at a jewelry store shop at the same jewelry store every time they shop. But there's also a lot of people that don't have that story yet. They don't have that relationship yet. And so being able to find and capitalize on those people that need that relationship, that need that jeweler you know, a lot of people might get annoyed. I spoke with the manager of a store who'd get frustrated because customers would walk in and they'd say, Hey, I need to speak to the jeweler, the owner, right. And you know, she'll be like, well, they, I can work with them. You know, it doesn't have to be that way.
[00:08:08] And yeah, it can be frustrating in some situations. Also what that shows is brand loyalty. What that shows is loyalty to your business. And so I think that's a good thing in general. Of course it's something you have to manage, right? That can scale. But yeah, I think it's a good sign of a strong business with a good, loyal customer base.
[00:08:27] Sagan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the goal of any manager is to make sure that they can be helped by anybody, that they feel confident with anybody. But at the same time, if they're coming back to you and they want to talk to so and so, you just let them, you know? If you can make it happen, you make it happen, make them happy, make sure it's all gonna work out, and it's all gonna be fine, you know?
[00:08:45] Nick: Yep. Yeah. I love that. Well, It's an interesting time in jewelry. You know, as we're looking forward, you know, the last few years in jewelry have been great, you know, very successful. We've seen, I mean, as an industry as a whole it's been all up and to the right, which has been really exciting.
[00:09:01] Sagan: Yeah.
[00:09:01] Nick: But now we're looking at a future that isn't painting that same picture. Have you started to notice any downturn in your business as we're entering a type of recession? Do you have any insight on that? Is it not affecting you? I mean, again, you're in a touristy area, so maybe it affects you a little differently.
[00:09:15] Sagan: So yeah I do think that is absolutely something that affects everybody. It does affect us a little differently, though, here in Park City, where it is a touristy area. I had some customers come in, it was last night, and they were buying a piece and commented that everything seemed so much more expensive. Something that's happened in Park City, though for a long time, is that it's been unbelievably busy. It's been super busy, and it's because, you know, the skiers, they're catering to every crowd. And I think that the hotels, the ski resorts went, “hold on, there's a recession coming. We need to make sure that the clientele that we're bringing in here, that we're catering to get that five star treatment because those are the people who are still gonna have money.” And it sounds bad to say it that way, but the fact is that there is a cutoff point when there is a recession where the rich stay rich and the poor get poor. It's unfortunate, but that is one thing that is a little different.
[00:10:13] And so it won't affect us the same, but it is still concerning, right? I probably won't see the same amount of growth that I have in the last two years. But that doesn't mean that it's gonna be necessarily bad for us. We'll survive it. In 2008, my parents had no problem. We didn't have any issues with that. Even though we weren't running a store ourselves, we were still on Main Street, Park City, and the company that we worked with at the time, it was just like, okay, maybe we aren't seeing 15% growth, but we're seeing 10% growth. That's okay.
[00:10:43] You know, I do think that the economy is gonna hurt any industry that is not focused on moving forward. I think you need, like we kind of discussed before, you have to have those tools to make sure the person, you're in the back of their mind, whenever. You are their jeweler. You're spending as much time as possible on their mind through the website, through social media, through promotions.
[00:11:08] You've gotta look like, especially, okay, so like, for example, I used to work at a place that had, it was in a different city that had probably 15 different engagement stores. It was in Provo, Utah. If you know anything about that, everybody's getting married down there. And so there's a lot of competition and the store that I worked at was smart that they spent a lot of time really focusing on that, and that made a huge difference. They went from being a nobody that nobody cared about. There were already established places and now they're probably one of the biggest in the Valley of Utah Valley. I mean, they have definitely become number one in their area and that's through everything that's gone on. You will see stores close. You will see jewelers that struggle or retire early or complain, but it's the ones that kind of went, ah, you know what? I know how I'm doing things. I'm not gonna change. That's the issue. If you're willing to put in a little extra effort once we get past the recession, you'll probably actually come out on top even further than you were before.
[00:13:16] Nick: You point out several really important factors that I'd like to touch on. The biggest one of course is we can't ignore this. Those are the jewelers that are gonna hurt the worst, are the ones that are just ignoring it and saying, my business has been fine for years. They'll be fine through this. And maybe it will. But you make a great point there. Those that recognize that it's happening, take actionable steps to not only prevent the effect on their business, but also still strive and grow. You know, that's so important.
[00:13:41] You know, like one counterintuitive thing right now is it's probably better to put more money into marketing. You know, your first thought when you're entering a recession is, oh no, I gotta pull back. I gotta cut expenses. I gotta, you know, not spend any money. Well right now marketing's cheap, you know? And yeah, and this is a great time to lean into that.
[00:13:56] You know, the other thing you mentioned is playing to the strengths of where you're at. You know, it's gonna affect all of us differently. Go find something that makes your business unique. I mean, that was the case when you started your business, right? When anyone starts their business they always come in and they say, I'm gonna do something different. That's how I'm gonna succeed. I'm gonna do something different. I'm gonna be a different type of jeweler than was there before me. But then once they, you know, get to the point where growth is expected and the business is doing fine people tend to quit innovating. And they do that for a couple reasons. It's expensive to innovate. It's hard to innovate. But when something like a recession is coming up, this is the time to innovate, right? This is the time to do something different.
[00:14:32] Sagan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you hit it right on the head. We have literally across the street our biggest competitor, they have twice the square footage. They do custom as well. They love to say that they're the big man on the street and they are, you know, and for me to go, well, I'm gonna do the same thing, or I'm gonna just accept that, "well they won." No, they don't have to be my enemy. Let me do something different.
[00:14:54] Just like you said, and especially in a recession, that's gonna be the biggest thing is, look, this is where you start to branch out. This is where you start to be your own person, cuz you aren't, aren't gonna have as many people to cater to. Not everybody's gonna be buying jewelry, but find your niche and expand that niche, that it covers as much ground as possible, that you can affect as many people as possible. And by the time you're done, you'll have a much more loyal fan base of people who are your return customers, as well as everybody gets to know you a little bit better and go, no, this is somebody a little different. This is something unique. Sure. You know, you're not just doing the same, oh, we just do engagement rings, when, oh, we have a setting that you like that they don't have across the street, and maybe we're a little cheaper. No, be more than that. Be more personable. Be more what they need you to be and be totally different than anybody else in your town, your city, multiple cities, whatever it may be.
[00:15:48] Nick: Yeah. I love that. And I think that's something that we all need to do a little better. Try and do something different. I love that.
[00:15:55] So Sagan, tell me a little bit more about custom. I mean, we touched on it for a second. And you know, that being a big part of your business. Just talk to me a little bit more about custom and your opinion on custom jewelry in the industry. I mean, there's lots of trends going on. There's lots of things that always happen. You know, there's always something new that's exciting. You know, one that comes to mind is like permanent jewelry, right? That's kind of hot thing right now. Talk to me just a little bit more about custom and maybe other trends going on in the industry that you think are interesting.
[00:16:21] Sagan: So I think a lot of the time people will, in the jewelry industry, they'll throw…. okay, like say, for example, perfect example is permanent jewelry. They go, oh, that's where we're going. You know, to heck with any other things that we may think in the past, well, we would never have done that, but now we'll do it because we wanna hop on the trend immediately. I think honestly you can always follow the trend or you can make your own trend. And I think with that, I mean, I look back at it, I'm looking at the permanent jewelry. I look on Stoler and I see that's what they're pushing and I go, there's no way I'm gonna touch it because I know down the road I own it and I have to work on it and it's gonna be just a pain.
[00:17:01] Instead, let's take that idea and let's make it work for us. Let's make it something that's gonna be a little bit more innovative, a little bit better. It's like, sure, okay, it's not permanent, but let's make something that's gonna still have that style, that look, but you can take it on if you need. That way. Yeah. When they go in the shower, when they're sleeping, if they have that opportunity, they can take it off. And when they come back six months from now and go, my bracelet, it just broke. And it's like, well, have you been sleeping with it? Have you been...? I mean, these are the things we know. It's basics 101 of repair work. It's the basics of customs. You wanna make something that lasts so that you're not constantly having to fix it, you know? And that's not a good experience for the customer. It's not a good experience for you. You can follow the trend but why not improve the trend? Why not make it a little bit better? Why not just change it just to hair?
[00:17:46] I mean, there are a lot of things in our industry that we're following trends. I mean, gold filled is a huge thing. A lot of people love it until you have to repair it. Until you have to fix it, until you have to do something with it, right? Why not just make it so that it's a more affordable good piece? Maybe a little bit lighter, but you know it's gonna work and it may take longer, but that's okay. A lot of the time a trend is just a trend and it's supposed to throw something out there and then we're not gonna worry about it until later. We're not gonna consider it. I mean, hollow is another thing. I mean, there's a lot of different things that we can go into, but what's more important is making a good piece and if you have custom, if you have a custom shop whatsoever or any ability to do so, follow the trend to make yourself better and make your jewelry better. Don't cut corners just to save a little money to make it work a little bit better for somebody in the immediate, it needs to be down the road.
[00:18:42] I think custom, you have the advantage to make something completely different. People don't wanna see the same thing they've seen everywhere else, so you actually being a little different and saying, okay, yes, I get like, for example, permanent jewelry. I get that's what you want. Let me tell you why we do the same thing, but a little different and at the end of the day, the customer's gonna go, oh, I'm glad that you pointed that out to me. I like your version better. And sure, maybe it's, I don't know, 50 bucks more. But now I don't want something that's not gonna work for me. I want something that's gonna work and lasts forever, and I get it now, you know?
[00:19:17] And so I think, yeah, like you said, I mean, custom is fantastic, but don't just follow the trends, be the trendsetter. You can take stuff from magazines, from Stoler, from all these different places and go, that's great. I'm gonna do it better. And you should do that. You can, and you should.
[00:19:34] Nick: Yeah. I love that. And a big piece of that is educating the customer, right? Because they're gonna see the trends too. They'll, either talk to friends or they'll see it, you know, in a magazine or something like that. They'll see the trends. And educating a customer I think is so important because exactly like your point on permanent jewelry is a great one, right? Yeah. Permanent is a trend going on. It is very hard on the jewelry. You know, and you're much more likely to see issues with it than you would that something, you know what I mean? And just going through the education flow with customers.
[00:20:02] Sagan: Yeah. I mean, and that's like you said, that the customer is always right until they're not. And you have to be able to let them know, “hey I totally get where you're coming from. I can do that, but I have a better option. And this is what I think, and this is why. If you're too afraid to say that and too afraid to bring that up to them, you shouldn't be in custom at all. Don't worry about it. Just do simple, do easy, do what you can. But if you are in custom, always let your opinion be heard. So that way when they come back six months from now and they didn't take your advice, you'd go, "I mean, I told you. Let's do it right this time." You know what you're doing, you know.
[00:20:39] Nick: Yeah, I love that we're in one of the few industries where the person selling the goods still knows maybe a little bit more than the consumer does. That's not the case with cars anymore. That's not the case with most things anymore. I think we're very lucky in jewelry to still be in that scenario most of the time. And so what that enables us to do is really provide a great opportunity and a great experience for these consumers.
[00:21:00] Nick: So, Sagan, as we're looking down the road a little more what are some things in the industry that are just getting you excited the next year, two, five years? What are the things that get you excited in the industry right now?
[00:21:10] Sagan: I am probably going to upset quite a few people when I say this. And it depends. It depends on the jeweler. One of the things that a lot of jewelers are getting really nervous about is lab grown stones, especially lab grown diamonds and going, “ah, that's our industry. We're never gonna make any money.” We have in all of our cases, it's natural. It's good quality FDS1 diamonds, they're fantastic. But whenever a customer comes to me and says, "Ooh, that's a little expensive," the first thing I'm gonna say is, "let's do lab grown diamonds. Let's custom make it, I'll make you the same piece and hey, it's gonna be 500 bucks less," or whatever it may be and we should not at all shy away from that. I think for me it's actually a great advantage, especially where things are, with inflation, increasing.
[00:21:56] When somebody comes in and they go, oh gosh, "I can't spend $1,400 on a piece for my wife." "Well do you got two weeks? I'll make it," you know, and it'll be with lab, so it'll be $900, right? And that is a great option. It shouldn't be something that we shy away from. I do understand where some people, they have a huge amount of live inventory and they've gotta move it. And they're like, ah, nobody's buying natural diamonds anymore. That is a concern. I get that. But consider the option of, hey, that's gonna be something that might stay in the case longer, but at least I can show people that and they go, that's great. Can you do it lab grown? You just go, yes, because you're still gonna make money. You're still gonna make more than enough profit. You know, just because it's not natural, lab grown diamonds are a great option. It's better than CZs have been. It's better than Moissanite, it's actually the real deal. And don't shy away from it. Be excited for it. Be excited that there's another option. I think that's one big thing.
[00:22:54] And I think the other thing is a lot of jewelers are no longer, again, this might upset people. I'm almost kind of glad that a lot of mall jewelers are changing their bases or having to be forced to change the typical way that we've done things, like a typical eighties jeweler where you go in, there's a classical music playing, everyone's wearing a suit, they've got 15,000 pieces, and you feel like you're getting sold, right? And you have to know everything about everything. And that's not a fun experience for any customer. And I'm glad that the industry is moving away from that to being a lot more casual, a little bit more, "Hey, let's make you something great. Let's do some custom. Let's do whatever it may be."
[00:23:35] And we have so many great tools like CAD. I mean, CAD is unbelievable. It's a great asset. I mean, the advancements that we've seen in that, as well as in laser engraving and everything else like that. You don't have to have it in your store, but if you have the ability to make it happen for a customer, and have that kind of experience where it's like, hey, I mean we have a small store. We have 500 square feet of retail space and it's not much. But we can extend that so much more and be on par with a company that has a couple million dollars in live jewelry and go, “hey, you know what? We may not have it. Let's make it,” and that's a fantastic thing. That's so exciting and something that I'm really excited to see continue to be a bigger and bigger presence as we get past that old stuffy mall jeweler vibe of, "Hey I'm going in, I'm gonna get sold, and I really can't stand these guys, but you know, whatever. It's part of the experience," to now you're going in and you're just talking to somebody and making something cool and unique and artistic and fun. That's gonna be a memory for, you know, a loved one. That's awesome. That's the vibe that I'm really excited about we're going towards the jewelry.
[00:24:47] Nick: Yeah. I love that. I mentioned earlier about, you know, us being lucky that we're in one of the industries where we can still educate our customers but in the same exact thread, I think that's the same reason why, you know, there might be jewelers out there that are resistant to certain things, such as like, you know, the classic jewelry store vibe that you mentioned where it's very, very, you know, proper and high end and as opposed to something a little bit more casual and comfortable for some of these consumers, and maybe there's a place for both. And, you know, it's definitely something you gotta figure out what would be best for your store.
[00:25:17] But we have to remember that even if we still can educate our customers, that doesn't mean that we should ignore their preferences and how they want to do things, right? Whether that's in the experience in our store, or whether that's in the product that we sell, you know, we need to make sure to take their input seriously about the products that we carry and what we do. You're right, lab grown diamonds it's always gonna be someone's gonna have a different opinion, right, on lab grown diamonds. I think that's a great point. I love that you stock your store with natural diamonds and you offer lab as an alternative. I think that's a great method to at least try it out, right? For the retailers that haven't dove into lab grown diamonds yet.
[00:25:52] Nick: One way that I've heard it mentioned, that I think is really appropriate is, Hey, this is getting us a sale that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise, right? Suddenly we're able to sell this item that this consumer couldn't have afforded otherwise. And I think there's a lot of concern with it. “Okay, well I am now giving up this natural diamond sale in turn for this lab grown,” when it doesn't necessarily have to mean that. And another way that you pointed out that I really like is, you know, this isn't gonna hurt my lab grown sales. This is gonna hurt my CZ and my Moissanite sales. And that's just fine, you know? So anyways just a couple comments on that. I think it's a really good insight from you, though.
[00:26:29] Sagan: Yeah. I mean, would you wanna make a $300 sale instead of a $600 sale or have to go the CZ route and make $25. I mean, there's such a huge difference. I mean, lab growns should be looked at, in my opinion, as an advantage, not a disadvantage in the industry.
[00:26:44] Nick: Sure. I love that. I love that. And I think lots of jewelers need to key into that a little bit and understand that it is an option for their business. And you know what, again, you know, no two jewelers are gonna be the same and they shouldn't be the same. There's gonna be just as many who decide that's not the market that my customers are in, and I don't want to go to that market. That's fine. But it is another lever to pull on, right? If you're trying to figure out ways to grow your store or increase sales you know, it's another lever to pull on and why not look at it, right? If it is something that's a good fit for your store.
[00:27:12] Sagan: Yeah.
[00:27:13] Nick: Great. Well, Sagan, thank you so much for being on. It was really good getting to learn a little bit more about Woodbury Jewelers and what you guys are doing there in Park City. If people wanna learn more about Woodbury Jewelers where can they go? What's your guys' website?
[00:27:24] Sagan: It's simple. It's woodburyjewelers.com and we've got most of our stuff on there and it's just a little different. So hopefully anybody that visits there, they're gonna get some inspiration to do something cool in their own store too, and do something fun there.
[00:27:37] Nick: Love that. Awesome. Great. Woodburyjewelers.com. Thanks again, Sagan. We'll chat again soon.
[00:27:41] Sagan: Absolutely. Thanks.