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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Welcome to Sisters in Sobriety. Today we're excited to have Carolyn Beidler [00:01:00] joining us and Carolyn is a leader in the fields of recovery, trauma healing, and advocacy with a background in social work and over a Decade of Experiences. Decade of Experience.
[00:01:11] Sonia: She's dedicated her life to helping others navigate the complexities of addiction, trauma and healing. She's also the founder of Circle of Chairs, a platform designed to amplify the voices of women in recovery and a contributing
[00:01:29] Sonia: Yes, and her latest book, You Are Not Your Trauma, is a powerful and compassionate guide to understanding the impact of trauma and it provides practical tools for reclaiming one's life. Her writing, particularly on Substack, is a blend of personal storytelling and professional insights where she shares her journey and empowers others to find hope and healing.
[00:01:50] Sonia: In today's episode, we'll delve into her deep insights on intergenerational and family trauma, the power of radical vulnerability, and we'll also [00:02:00] explore the challenging but transformative process of healing and processing grief. Welcome, Caroline. Yes,
[00:02:09] Caroline: both. I'm really excited for our conversation today. We're going to cover some deep topics, but hopefully have some fun. And yeah, I'm just really looking forward to being here.
[00:02:17] Sonia: we're so excited you're here. So can you tell us a little bit about your personal journey and what led you to the work you're doing today?
[00:02:25] Caroline: Uh, yeah, I would love to, it's interesting that question. I think sometimes my mind has a tendency to go back and say, well, it's like the war stories, like it got so bad and here's how dark it was. And here's what that looked like. And I feel like so many of us. Um, even if our stories are different, we share some of those same commonalities of loneliness and struggle, isolation and not feeling like belonging.
[00:02:49] Caroline: I don't necessarily have to go into how bad it got for you all to understand how bad it got. You know, that's one of the things I love about recovery too, is just we [00:03:00] can walk into, maybe it's a figurative recovery space, maybe it's turning on this podcast, We can connect with other people in recovery, even though our stories, the particulars might be different.
[00:03:10] Caroline: There's that common theme and thread of we are human. We've experienced some hard things and we're trying to heal from that. And so, ultimately what has brought me to this point where I've really made a decision, I, well, I've, I've made a decision, gosh, and this has been a date me at least it was at least 10 years ago now I've been doing social work for almost two decades.
[00:03:32] Caroline: If you couldn't believe it. I love to make the joke that zoom like filters do wonderful for my skin, although Riverside isn't as nice as zoom. so I've been doing social work for a couple of decades, but I remember it was around 2013 and I was just a couple months on Miami, almost a year in recovery, about 28 years old.
[00:03:51] Caroline: And I met a woman named Alex and I started volunteering at an outpatient treatment center. And there was a group for college aged, college. Folks who [00:04:00] are in or seeking recovery and Alex was there and we connected, and she really connected with some of the things I had been through like sexual violence and Living in a home where there was, you know Problematic substance use and alcoholism and some things like that and and we just connected and I remember having the most Incredible experiences with her just like simple times, you know in a car driving to a meeting sitting in the group room and sitting outside, I was smoking cigarettes back then.
[00:04:29] Caroline: Um, sitting outside having a cigarette, I'm not condoning smoking. I love being a cigarette free nicotine free. but just these moments with her and, Alex was beautiful. She was smart. She was going back to school. She wanted to study criminal justice and she struggled with a substance use issue and ended up going back out one more time and passed away from an overdose.
[00:04:51] Caroline: And so when Alex passed away, I was just, I was really shaken. Um, I had lived through an overdose as a young person, I had started [00:05:00] treatment and really trying to find recovery as a teenager. But back in the early mid nineties, like the recovery scene was a lot different, recovery wasn't cool.
[00:05:08] Caroline: There wasn't like mocktail bars and JLo wasn't out talking about like how wonderful alcohol free life is for your skin, there just wasn't this. You can, you cannot use substances. Um, and so, I had gone through some of that already. And by the time I met Alex, I made the decision when she died that I was going to be all in. in, like I wanted to, I remember, praying and I was like, I, and I don't know if your listeners connect, you know, with God or a spiritual path, but I hope you keep listening. But I just felt so moved. And I was like, praying, I want to spend my life for this, God, I just, I just knew it. And it was, it was a pivotal moment in my life.
[00:05:52] Caroline: I had been doing some other types of caregiving too. And it was like, I just had this fire lit under me. And. So I would see in [00:06:00] the community different things like that Alex didn't have, you know, Alex didn't have access to a recovery house for young women and she really needed that in college. College is really hard as we all know to be substance free and now there's a lot more supports for people like collegiate recovery programs and things like that, but Alex didn't have access to that.
[00:06:18] Caroline: So I got involved with the small group of people and we built a nonprofit recovery home for women. And. So I started getting involved in building some of these programs and things. So, and, and finding my voice, I think as a, a younger person, I don't qualify, I guess anymore as like a young person in recovery.
[00:06:38] Caroline: I'm like a middle aged nearing menopause, perimetopause person in recovery, um, which is a whole nother topic we should talk about sometimes. Um, but I've found like my voice in recovery. I found my purpose. You know, losing Alex and also being so motivated by the stories of young people, all people, families [00:07:00] who get well and stay, stay well and find this beautiful path of healing and redemption through recovery.
[00:07:07] Caroline: I mean, it's so motivating. I would not want to do anything else. Um, so today I've, had a couple of things happen in recovery, like got married, got pregnant, uh, with twins, became a mom, became a wife. Some of these other things where, where how I can be of service in the community has changed a little bit, um, but I still have that opportunity.
[00:07:28] Caroline: So now today I'm, I'm writing books and I am doing, um, some work for different federal agencies and, um, work with some research, you know, collaborators and different things all kind of centered on this idea of how can we build up support for people and families and how can we just get the word out about recovery because it is such an amazing way of life.
[00:07:50] Sonia: how
[00:07:51] Sonia: your experience with your own addiction influenced your approach to helping others? I always I find myself pulling from my [00:08:00] own experience a lot when I'm talking to people struggling in addiction. Mhm.
[00:08:04] Caroline: hmm. Oh, so much. And I think that's another thing that's so beautiful about recovery is we can use those hard times and things that we've learned from to help others. Kind of this sense of paying it forward, and giving back because of what we've learned. Oh, 100%. I mean, I think my experience of extreme isolation.
[00:08:24] Caroline: And just the shame that I walked around with for so many years. I was just looking back. I mean, the only word, you know, I'm a writer, so I love words, but I think I try to think about how to describe something. And for me, shame was this heavy coat. It was like the heaviest coat, like weight that I just had on my, and I just couldn't break free of it.
[00:08:46] Caroline: And so I was walking through the world with this heaviness and this, this heaviness that I couldn't shake and. I just, I don't want that for people. And I see women today, you know, I, I live in a small town in Eastern [00:09:00] Tennessee and behind the scenes, I always tell people like the actual really cool stuff I do.
[00:09:04] Caroline: No one will ever see on social media and I'm not going to be writing about it in books. Um, but I connect with women here in Eastern Tennessee and you can just see sometimes that heaviness. I mean, even like literally watching someone walk, you can see the shoulders turned down and. But to see when the light comes back on in the eyes and that weight starts to lift and people can walk more freely and you just, it's, it's a beautiful thing to witness.
[00:09:30] Caroline: I've felt it, I've experienced it personally and I see it happen, especially with when I see it with other women. It's just, it keeps me going. It's a beautiful thing.
[00:09:39] Kathleen: How do you now maintain your own mental and emotional well being? a social worker and like even just writing about addiction and the things that you're writing about trauma and even the things that you're dealing with behind the scenes, how do you maintain your own, your own mental wellbeing and emotional wellbeing?[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Caroline: Yeah, that's such a great question. I would love to hear your thoughts on that too, Kathleen. Um, for me and actually in the book. So, um, my next book that in the end I include, I love to include like practical things that people can use it too, but I include a series of resilience practices. Um, but things that people in myself included and I included them because they are so helpful for me that as I'm working in recovery and.
[00:10:26] Caroline: So in terms of what I do for my own recovery and how I focus on my mental health and well being, it's really a lot of the same things that I learned early on in recovery.
[00:10:34] Caroline: You know, I reach out. I make phone calls when I'm struggling. I go to different types of recovery support. So my pathways for recovery have changed over time, but I surround myself with people in recovery and that is so healing for me. A couple of the other things that I do that today, I know that it is related to my recovery, but you know, when I first entered this journey, I would have been like, [00:11:00] What are you talking about but moving my body going for walks?
[00:11:04] Caroline: I mean that is like one of the huge things You know just gentle stretches, I work out Probably not as much as I should but I'm not talking about exercise for like that side. I'm talking about This for a mental well being slow walking movement. I like to pray when I walk meditate. So those types of activities that I've learned that really help kind of down regulate some of when my body is on hyper drive, which I can still struggle with some trauma symptoms.
[00:11:34] Caroline: From time to time. So those are a couple of the things that I do. I also love. Well, of course, I'm a writer. I love reading and, I find books are such a really cool tool because we can access the wisdom and insight from folks. You know from ages, right? Like it is so amazing. So when you find someone who especially I love reading books by people in recovery, it's like it's like going [00:12:00] to a meeting It's like sitting down and having a cup of coffee Where you can hear someone's story and connect with it and just that feeling of not being alone You know is so healing and it doesn't matter if you have 24 hours in recovery or 24 years, right?
[00:12:12] Caroline: We still all benefit from that. So those are a couple of things that I do. Um, so when people ask me, you know, it's how many meetings do you go to a week or things like that? Like my, my recovery looks a lot different today and it looks a little bit the same, you know, there are some of the same things that I do.
[00:12:30] Caroline: Um, I'd say number one is reaching out and surrounding myself, but with people in recovery.
[00:12:36] Kathleen: Mm. I was just explaining to a client the other day. Um, her husband is, um,
[00:12:42] Caroline: think
[00:12:42] Kathleen: Struggles with addiction and, and you know, that, that missing link of connection, like how connection is so important in recovery. Um, and how just pivotal it is. And then one of the other things you said that really resonates with me [00:13:00] is, is moving your body.
[00:13:01] Kathleen: it is such a non negotiable for me. And even there's moments. When, life can get hard, right? Life can get hard, and the urge could be to just, stay in bed, or not move your body, and it's like, just do that one thing.
[00:13:16] Kathleen: so Caroline, we're going to switch over to talking about healing from intergenerational and family trauma, which Kathleen and I love talking about in our free time. it's like a recreational activity. What are,
[00:13:31] Kathleen: comes up. Let me just say in the weirdest of times, like we could be like shopping at Target and all of a sudden we'll be like, remember this like horrible. It's like, oh, yeah.
[00:13:47] Caroline: totally relate to that a lot. I would love to run into you too at target and be like, you know, eavesdropping on that conversation because yes, I totally get that. I totally get
[00:13:58] Sonia: And I think we do it too, [00:14:00] with Kathleen's daughter, because we don't want her to think it's like this heavy, serious thing. So sometimes I make jokes about it with
[00:14:07] Kathleen: More you, more
[00:14:09] Sonia: I do.
[00:14:10] Kathleen: the anti role. I'm more like. Honey, I'm here to support you through all of this.
[00:14:15] Sonia: And I'm
[00:14:15] Kathleen: Sonia is more of the
[00:14:17] Sonia: I'm like, you don't have a dad. I don't have a dad, you know, sucks. but yeah, so what are some common signs? Actually, this is, I probably have them all, that someone is dealing with intergenerational trauma. Yes,
[00:14:34] Caroline: a little bit of context for kind of how we talk about intergenerational trauma in the book. So the book actually was co written by my mother, um, Diana. So Diana also trained social worker. Interestingly enough, I followed in my mom's footsteps, but she has interludes throughout the book.
[00:14:51] Caroline: So one of the things that I discovered into my recovery journey early on, probably a year or two in, was how much. [00:15:00] trauma, specifically my family trauma, what my mom had been through, how I was raised, some of those things, how it was impacting me still and how I needed to deal with some of those deep seated issues in order to move forward with my healing.
[00:15:13] Caroline: And I think I was just talking to a friend about this. I think You know, we may get to a point in our recovery when our mind starts to heal and our brain starts to heal and our body starts to heal where it becomes safe to start looking at some of these other things. And I think a lot of the books and literature and a lot of the stuff out there helps us get into recovery.
[00:15:35] Caroline: But it doesn't help us stay there. It doesn't help us move to the next level of really digging in and digging in, uh, in a safe way to start dealing with some of these things. So for, for me, intergenerational trauma, um, and what my mother experienced, but she talks about in the book, her experiences with unhealthy relationships, repeated relationships, multiple marriages, disordered, um, relationships.
[00:15:58] Caroline: an unhealthy [00:16:00] relationship with food. some of these patterns, she, um, left my dad when my brother was just turning two and I was about three. and so she kind of went off and my dad and my stepmom and my grandfather ended up raising us for the most part. And we saw her, you know, throughout the years, but it was, she was really having a hard time showing up as a mother and, and being there.
[00:16:24] Caroline: and so her trauma symptoms were just like, out of control for so many years. Um, interestingly, her trauma and I get, I won't get into that story. Um, cause that's her story to tell, but her trauma is very similar to what I experienced. And so I found myself a series of relationships, you know, thank God I never married any of them, but, I had a similar string of unhealthy relationships.
[00:16:48] Caroline: You know, toxic relationship with food, trust issues, all of these things boundary, distorted sense of boundaries, excessive people pleasing. I mean, all of these indicators, it was like, [00:17:00] Caroline, Diana, and it was just, it was like, wow, I am repeating. A lot of what my mother has been through.
[00:17:08] Caroline: Um, and the science, I'm, I'm a social worker. I'm not a scientist, but I do, I love to research and I include some research in the book. There's interesting newer research out there that shows, um, when we experience trauma, it can be generations even before generations after that have heightened levels of anxiety, depression, all of these things that indicate some type of trauma.
[00:17:32] Caroline: So we know this for, for example, Survivors of the holocaust, there's been research for indigenous communities, um, black, individuals and families, you know, uh, folks who have been through really significant kind of historical, trauma, like racism, and then we have experiences like my mother and I, where, you know, we have obviously a certain type of, trauma that's different from a lot of what the research is out there right now.
[00:17:58] Caroline: But I think that's also [00:18:00] shifting to open it up to say this is something that so many of us experience in recovery. And what can we do about it? And how can we address it? And so it was not an easy topic to talk about. but I think looking at both our personal experience, looking at what the research is saying, there's even, I don't know if you all are familiar with this concept of epigenetics
[00:18:21] Kathleen: Oh yes.
[00:18:22] Sonia: I love
[00:18:23] Caroline: it's like, and we talk a little bit about that in the book that literally our cells and our DNA are changing based on some of the things we experience.
[00:18:32] Caroline: And. As a mother now, my twins, I have six year old twins, Henrik and Violet. I don't want them to be repeating some of the things that have been in our family likely for generations. I don't want that to happen. And so looking at, okay, what can I do? What can we do practically to move towards healing and to choose healing over repeating some of those, those patterns?[00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Kathleen: Absolutely. I think that's, that's super important.I wanted to ask how someone can. Begin to recognize and acknowledge the impact of family trauma on the recovery journey.
[00:19:13] Caroline: Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I think every, everyone's on their own path, butmy experience, folks that I've worked with and encountered, I think, as I mentioned before, as we get into recovery and maybe start healing or maybe, you know, it's before, um, you know, recovery doesn't necessarily have to be an abstinence.
[00:19:32] Caroline: Maybe someone is still using substances, but exploring some of these things, um, whatever stage you're at. I think. Okay. I think our minds sometimes will be like, okay, like I'm ready to start doing this. Or we may get to a point where we're just so miserable and like we're just living in these, in this muck and this mess that we just, we don't want to do it anymore.
[00:19:54] Caroline: And that is kind of the point where I got, I was in a really unhealthy relationship and my eating disorder was out of [00:20:00] control and it was just like this. I was having panic attacks and it was just, I was nearly suicidal. Um, And I just remember like making the choice. And I talk about this in the book that healing can be a choice.
[00:20:12] Caroline: I mean, for so long, I felt like life was just happening to me. I was a trauma survivor. I had been through these things. I was surviving them, but it was everything happening to me. And I separated from the idea that I actually have agency. I have agency and I have control and I have choice and I don't have to just let life happen to me.
[00:20:32] Caroline: I can be an active participant. Certainly things happen to us outside of our control all the time. Um, but I can make a choice and how I respond to that. So I am a huge proponent of the, um, therapy. It's called seeking safety. You may be familiar with it. Love it. I love seeking safety because, and I talk about this in the book, because it offers practical coping skills and tools.
[00:20:57] Caroline: with how to cope with our symptoms of trauma [00:21:00] and the hard stuff like today. Right now, we're not necessarily going back and doing, exposure therapy and EMDR, although those things may be very helpful for folks. And I've experienced that as well, but
[00:21:11] Sonia:
[00:21:12] Caroline: I found it very helpful to look at the more practical. How do we address what we're feeling now? So, for example, with coping skills, when I have anxiety coming up, What are some things that I can do?
[00:21:26] Caroline: You know, when I'm acting unhealthy kind of in those trauma symptoms and not from a place of healing, what I might do is I might reach out, even if I'm not using substances that might be texting my ex boyfriend or grabbing the pints of ice cream or some of those other things
[00:21:41] Sonia: So how does unaddressed family trauma manifest in addiction and recovery? Mm
[00:21:49] Caroline: know, I really believe that we will start showing signs or like, it'll become clear that something isn't working. You know, I remember when I was early in recovery [00:22:00] and dealing with some changes, I had gone back to graduate school. I ended up leaving a really unhealthy relationship, but what ended up happening was all of these other symptoms started happening, you know, a lot of mental health challenges.
[00:22:14] Caroline: I had severe anxiety, depression. I ended up being diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder, which I think a lot of us in recovery are. It's an underdiagnosis. Because once I was diagnosed with with post traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, I just felt like this all of a sudden it clicked You know, it was like wow, I finally started making sense to myself So, you know, I think there's a lot of different ways that can learn, we need to start addressing more of what has happened to us and, and who we are if we want to move forward in our recovery.
[00:22:50] Caroline: And that includes what we've experienced, intergenerationally. Um, there's a lot of really great research out there. I talk a little bit about that in my book, but I would definitely point listeners [00:23:00] to some of the, some of the research out there, that talks about, heightened levels of depression and anxiety and other mental health symptoms as kind of this. Clear indicator. There's something else going on. a lot of times people are like, well, I tried recovery. I tried sobriety and it just not for me. I was miserable. And, my first thing is always like, well, did you give it at least 90 days because you need to at least 90 days. for your brain to start healing.
[00:23:25] Caroline: But then, year two, you're in, you see a lot of people going back out five years, I believe it's because these things are coming up that we need to address and deal with. And we aren't, we don't have the tools and we don't have the tools to, to recognize them.
[00:23:45] Kathleen: and physical sobriety. And you can really see that, like we obviously, we talk about a little bit in that episode about my ex husband and her, her brother who, who was sober physically for 10 years, but didn't do the [00:24:00] work on, um, on his trauma, to be honest, like on, on all of the things that were happening.
[00:24:06] Kathleen: And so, So when life got hard, he went back to drinking, and I think that weaves in with that emotional sobriety piece is like, what's the healing you're doing? It's not just about physically not using the substance anymore. It's like, what are you doing to heal? Um,
[00:24:23] Caroline: much. And I think, I think we can ask ourselves that question. And we can also look towards, who we want to be, you know, almost this kind of like this goal setting of, okay, does Caroline want to be the person that still has issues with food that is in all of these horrible relationships is promiscuous and does not value herself or her body?
[00:24:48] Caroline: Does Caroline want to have, you know, untreated post traumatic stress? Does Caroline want to keep living like this, even in recovery? Or does Caroline want to be free from this, And what do I [00:25:00] really want my life to look like? And I did some work around that. I went back to see a therapist and what I wanted for my life wanted to be an author, wanted to be in a relationship with a, with a Good man and have a healthy relationship.
[00:25:14] Caroline: I want to be a mother, you know I wanted to be able to show up in a way for my kids In a more healed way than my mother had shown up for me I you know, I didn't want my kids or my family to live in an alcoholic home I wanted there to be stability, so I thought about deeply, you know spent a lot of time thinking about what kind of life do I want to live and who do I want to be and I You know, looking at that and making those decisions, I think sometimes it's really important just to confront that, you know, because It's hard to live in denial when you're like, okay, this is where I want to be, but this is where I still am.
[00:25:49] Caroline: Um, and you can make the choice to just stay stuck and stay where you are, but, um, it's a beautiful thing when we can be like, no, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to choose healing. I'm going to choose to go in this direction and [00:26:00] then find the tools, surround ourselves with people who know a lot more than us, surround ourselves with recovery communities.
[00:26:06] Caroline: saturate, listen to your podcast, you know, just saturate ourselves with, um, the knowledge and the tools and the skills to be able to move into that next, you know, into that where we want to be.
[00:26:16] Kathleen:
[00:26:45] Sonia: So, Caroline, what initial strategies do you recommend for breaking that cycle of intergenerational trauma? How can somebody start?
[00:26:55] Caroline: Well, I think definitely once you notice that there's more going on under the surface and [00:27:00] feel moved to seek help, maybe it's because you're at a place of, uh, I'm just so miserable in these kind of symptoms I'm experiencing and these, this life that I'm living. Um, or, you know, just making the choice, that you want something else for your life.
[00:27:14] Caroline: I think always, always, always reaching out for external support is 100%. Kathleen, your account, you know, you do counseling. I'm a huge proponent of therapy. Um, if you're working in a recovery program, have a sponsor. Awesome. I feel like a lot of us still need professional mental health treatment.
[00:27:32] Caroline: we've been through some things. And so seeking that outside support, that was the first thing I did once I really started experiencing some, some hard things and knowing that there was a lot more going on under the surface for me. So seeking out, outside professional support, Surrounding ourselves with healthy communities so that, I always say recovery community 100 percent and there's other healthy communities out there, today.
[00:27:54] Caroline: I'm a part of a mom's group at one of our local churches and these ladies [00:28:00] are hilarious. We have a lot of fun. No one's in recovery, but me and it's, I love making like, Recovery jokes and we were out for dinner the other night and, um, the waiter came around and was like asking if anyone had allergies.
[00:28:14] Caroline: And I was like, I have an allergy to alcohol and other drugs. And he was like this young kid. And he looked, he was like, he was so confused, but everyone like started laughing, but they're my people and they, they love me and they challenge me and support me. So finding that, and it, it's, it's may sound like If you're listening and you're like, Oh, I don't know, but I don't trust people and I don't have those people, it may sound hard and I've been there too, but those people are out there and I think the world is so different now today too, where a lot of communities, there's a lot online going on, that's really cool, if you're afraid to be in person with people right now, I want to encourage you at some point, it's really important to do that, to be in person.
[00:28:53] Caroline: But if you need to start on zoom, if you need to start in your living room with your pajamas on and like with your camera off on zoom, [00:29:00] like start where you need to start, but surround yourself with other people. Um, and then, one of the things, um, in the book that we do, well, five of the things we have five rhythms that we walk through with practical access exercises, uh, journaling exercises, question prompts to help you move through these specific set of rhythms that are. created to guide you, move you towards healing. Now it's not like a do these things and you're going to be free of, all your troubles, right? It's not like a quick fix, but it's more of to be able to use. You can use it with your therapist. I've been hearing a lot of people are actually doing that with early copies, which is really cool.
[00:29:40] Caroline: Um, but a tool to be able to guide through some specific ways to heal. the first being, I'm not going to give them all away, but we talk a lot about Boundaries
[00:29:50] Kathleen: mm hmm,
[00:29:51] Caroline: and boundaries being something, for my experience being a survivor of trauma, [00:30:00] specifically, specifically around sexual trauma and sexual violence, my sense of boundaries and sense of self was so distorted for so long.
[00:30:08] Caroline: Um, and so I really needed to learn. I had agency, I had choice and control over my body. I can decide who to let in and who to let, who to kick out kind of thing, and learning specific tools around assertive communication, how to communicate directly with people, how to have those conversations and have that period at the end and be like, nope, this is, this is it and stand up for myself.
[00:30:32] Caroline: So working through some of those things as like practical ways to start addressing it.
[00:30:37] Kathleen: Yeah, I think Caroline that's really important and you've said the word choice numerous times in agency and it's actually what I, is the foundation for how I live my life and how I practice psychotherapy. because I think that. Even in the most dire circumstances there can be choice There [00:31:00] can even if it's I choose how I am seeing this or I'm choosing what my thoughts are there's there can be choice and I think that you've mentioned that numerous times like in terms of Healing like there is a choice to heal.
[00:31:17] Kathleen: I think you said healing is a choice I feel like that needs to be a bumper sticker or something
[00:31:23] Caroline: I, I love that so much. And yeah, I do use the word choice a lot. And I think it's important to as we're having these conversations to ground down into, this idea that we, we have agency and we're able to, make decisions and have choice. I love that you incorporate that in your practice.
[00:31:41] Caroline: And I think anytime. We're having conversations about trauma. It's really important to stay grounded in that in that truth As I mentioned, you know at the end of my new book. I have a set of resilience practices Grounding actually being a really helpful thing to do sometimes as we're [00:32:00] doing some of this work things may come up My mom jokes.
[00:32:03] Caroline: She's like, I wonder if the book actually needs like a trigger warning. I'm like Yeah, that's a really good point. and it, it has trigger warnings throughout actually, because as we're talking about this, even though we don't talk super explicitly about different things, maybe a little bit, a lot of our own stuff starts coming up and that's part of the process of it, but we need to have these moments, these interrupted moments where we can say, we can practice some grounding and remind us, we are present, we are, we are here right now.
[00:32:30] Caroline: Um, we don't have to let our minds wander back into that place. I know I'm kind of getting into the weeds a little bit. But anyways, um, I think it's important to keep at the forefront of our minds, this idea of choice
[00:32:43] Kathleen: Mm
[00:32:43] Caroline: around healing, especially when we are coming from a place of needing to heal from trauma.
[00:32:49] Kathleen: What about forgiveness? Is, is forgiveness a choice? And does it have a role in healing from trauma?
[00:32:58] Caroline: That may be one of the [00:33:00] rhythms. Um, I like the way. Yeah. So, um, yes, a hundred percent. And it's really hard. that was a really hard section to write about and it's a really hard thing to talk about. I think, there's this idea of, like, we may be able to forgive or get to a place of forgiveness, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll forget.
[00:33:21] Caroline: That doesn't necessarily mean that, If someone did you harm that it's going to be open arms to that person and they're going to be coming to holiday dinner, like we may need to set up some boundaries. So forgiveness is, it's a really, um, complex thing, but it can be so freeing when we get to that place.
[00:33:40] Caroline: You know, my mom and I's relationship, I mean, the fact that we could write this book together, I'm just so honored, how it actually came to be was, was because we've done a lot of work on forgiveness, you know, I mean, she, she took off when I was a kid and there's a lot that I could hold resentment for, and there's probably family members that have some of that [00:34:00] resentment, but you can see the difference between living with a heart of forgiveness and living in that place of bitterness. And it's just, it's like night and day, you know? And I don't want to be in that place. Have I forgotten everything? No. But, mom and I can do things like write a book together and, you know, she's like my best friend and she's been my best friend for a really long time. So, um, yeah. I love that you brought that up.
[00:34:26] Caroline: So, we are thinking alike there.
[00:34:28] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:34:30] Sonia: that a step further, how important is it to involve family members in the recovery process when you're dealing with family trauma? Sometimes I find, like for me, I would get like re traumatized by the same people who caused the trauma, but is it important? To force myself to do that?
[00:34:52] Caroline: You know, I think that's a really good question to ask. if you have a therapist and you're asking that question, then maybe bring that to your session. Um, and
[00:34:59] Sonia: I [00:35:00] have.
[00:35:00] Caroline: you. Okay, cool. That's awesome. because I think everyone is different and every situation is different where it actually may cause more harm to yourself or and or to the other person to, like, actively involve them, having them physically present.
[00:35:15] Caroline: my father actually passed away about a year ago. And interestingly, I feel like I have done so much work on growing up in an alcoholic home since he passed away. He has not been physically present for that. I feel like there's like some like mysterious, maybe he's been spiritually present for that, but when he was living, he would not have been able to participate in like a family.
[00:35:40] Caroline: session or like that type of healing with that. But for me, I have still been able to do work around forgiveness and healing that part of my family trauma with him in a sense, but also not with him. that's just a different, a different example. So I think it really, really depends on the situation and it's important to be mindful, [00:36:00] um, about how those choices are made and bringing in people who, you Kathleen, have, um, that experience and maybe from that a mental health professional, um, therapeutic side who can kind of help, help us make those decisions.
[00:36:15] Caroline: Um, cause I know, especially early on for me, Oh my gosh. I had a woman who was mentoring me early on in recovery. She was a sponsor and, and I had gone through, I thought, I'd gone through the steps myself and I was going to make amends to this, my ex boyfriend. And I mean, she was just like, she sat me down and she's like, Oh my gosh, you really need to do this with someone else.
[00:36:37] Caroline: You know, you really need to walk through this with help. You can't do this by yourself. So being able to, even with that, the family dynamics, bringing other people into that, we don't ever have to do healing alone ever, which is really freeing. It's really cool. We never have to make those choices. Um, traumatizing things.
[00:36:59] Caroline: We do not have [00:37:00] to make those decisions about how to heal. We don't have to do the work. We can do that in community with others and with professional support.
[00:37:08] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. what are some of the therapeutic approaches that you think are effective in addressing intergenerational trauma?
[00:37:20] Caroline: in the book, I do kind of an overview of some of the evidence based modalities that there are EMDR and some of the other, um, types of work, cognitive behavioral therapy. I've been trained as a mental health provider, but I'm not practicing. And so I've. Um, very clear about where I come from an experience of personal experience and um, with a background in social work, working with women in recovery, using storytelling, to do that.
[00:37:48] Caroline: But then that distinction between I'm, I'm not a practicing mental health provider right now, so I'm not going to advocate for one type of evidence based treatment over the other. Although I do in my [00:38:00] book talk about kind of this overview of different options and then share a little bit about how seeking safety was helpful for me.
[00:38:08] Caroline: You know, I can speak from my personal experience and the gaps that I see in how we're approaching treatment and recovery specifically with women who've experienced trauma. And I think we're missing, and that's part of why I wanted to write the book. I think we're missing those practical ways that people can cope with stress, cope with these symptoms and like live our active daily lives in a quality way.
[00:38:33] Caroline: And so the very simple things that we talked about this earlier, moving our bodies, what a concept, like get off the couch, put your phone down, go for a walk outside. I mean, this is going to, it's, it's amazing and it's going to do wonders work on grounding and staying present, learning how, when we're really regulated to be able to down regulate and do some of these, not simple, but these tools that are very practical.
[00:38:58] Caroline: Um, so I feel like when we're [00:39:00] able to help kind of self soothe. and cope with some of these stressors, then we can move on to do some of the harder work, maybe seeing a therapist, maybe starting to do EMDR. But then we have the tool to be able to do some of this other type of stuff. So I hope that answered your question.
[00:39:15] Caroline: mm
[00:39:19] Kathleen: because as, you know, as a psychotherapist, I see clients every day, obviously. And What I have found is that there's a lot of talk therapy that doesn't actually give people tools.
[00:39:32] Caroline: hmm.
[00:39:33] Kathleen: And so I usually start with the tools with my clients, even couples.
[00:39:38] Kathleen: So I start with tools, like how do you emotionally regulate? How do you regulate those feelings? Not to get rid of them, but how do you let them move up and out or through you? Which I think we're just not taught that. People aren't taught that generally. And so in order to do the deeper work, then those tools can [00:40:00] be really effective, um, safety net in many cases.
[00:40:05] Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. I love that so much.and with the tools piece too, you know, I remember, and you're probably familiar with, um, acceptance and commitment
[00:40:13] Kathleen: That's my main modality.
[00:40:15] Sonia: It's her thing.
[00:40:16] Caroline: Okay. See, we are on the same wave.
[00:40:18] Caroline: I love acceptance and commitment therapy. I, I, when I was doing my training, I worked, um, at the VA hospital, um, and learned, uh, facilitating acceptance and commitment therapy while also simultaneously like going through the process. And when I learned that I didn't have to attach to thoughts that I was having, that actually my thought life didn't,
[00:40:40] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:40:41] Caroline: control me.
[00:40:42] Caroline: It didn't have to have control over my life. Um, that mine, it was groundbreaking for me. So how can we bring some of these tools into the recovery community? I think, and that's part of what I feel so called and moved to do because they are so transformational. More people need access to this. [00:41:00] Um, yeah, yeah.
[00:41:02] Kathleen: I totally agree. Obviously we're,
[00:41:05] Caroline: So
[00:41:05] Kathleen: from the same book.
[00:41:09] Sonia: Carolyn, I wanted to shift to the concept of radical vulnerability. Is that one of the tools? And what is radical vulnerability? What does it mean to you and why is it so important in recovery?
[00:41:22] Caroline: Yeah, I love the concept of radical vulnerability, and, it's not trademarked or anything. Brene Brown probably used it first, or someone else. one of the two, one of the rhythms is centered on that, but it's not specifically, it's about getting honest, and it's about being real. so when we can just come fully, become present, and kind of show up as ourselves, and that might be, like, You know, airing the dirty laundry, getting it all out in a safe way, or just showing up and, being honest with another person about where we're at and what we're feeling. Again, transformational, and I think that's one of the reasons, and there has been some [00:42:00] research on this, but like why 12 step fellowships, and that, that model for our, recovery support has been so. beneficial and obviously is working for so many people. Now again, I'm a huge believer in a lot of different pathways.
[00:42:16] Caroline: So I'm not advocating one or the other here. But just that idea of showing up and sharing what's going on with us. How novel, right? But like, we're taught and a lot of us are taught to put on our Sunday best, you know. Keep it all in. We have it all together, especially, if you're like me, like in your 40s and stuff, I feel like it's changed a little bit for the younger generations where it's more accepted to Share where you're at and talk about mental health and these different things, but it's shift.
[00:42:43] Caroline: It's it's shift shifting and slowly shifting, but I think for a lot of us, we're just taught to, like, have it all together, and I just I wish, like, everyone operated like a recovery meeting, like, all the time. I hate small talk. My kids started soccer and I'm like, Oh no, here it goes.
[00:42:59] Caroline: It [00:43:00] begins. I'm now a soccer mom in recovery. Um, but like, I detest small talk because I just want to get to the deep stuff, so what's really going on with you? You know, I don't want to talk about what you got to target or like, you know, this, that, and I want to know, like, what, you know, what family trauma are you working on, I think that would be a little bit maybe too much for the sideline soccer game with the soccer moms, but really though How can we say, you know, you know what?
[00:43:24] Caroline: I'm not having a good day. And here's what happened You know My husband and I aren't getting you know I'm just like being able to be honest about what's going on is so important It sounds so like simple almost like just be honest and share what's going on with you. Um, but it's hard to do. It's really hard to do.
[00:43:39] Caroline: I think especially when we're conditioned to have it all together. And, you know, I think especially as women, we got to balance all the things and the mom and the house and the this and the that. And, also look nice. And like, it's just like tiring. Um, so. Nice.
[00:43:54] Kathleen: No, that really resonates with me, actually, like in many ways, because I struggle with that. I [00:44:00] struggle and Sonia knows this of like, looks like everything is put together. But if you scratch just below the surface and you ever really ask me how I am like, then the truth comes out. And so it is. I think it's conditioned in us in many ways.
[00:44:13] Kathleen: It's a cultural like the society we live in. I think it is changing. Thank goodness. Um, but I think it's a great reminder just to How can you bring radical vulnerability into your day to day life? so, so how can someone bring that into their everyday life, especially in recovery?
[00:44:31] Kathleen: Is that like someone asks you how you are and you actually say how you are?
[00:44:35] Caroline: I think that's a really good place to start. Yeah. Yeah. I have a friend. She's so, she's so funny. We, we all have those friends that challenge us a little bit, you know, she's one of those people for me, but she'll be like, Oh, Hey, how's it going? And I'm like, Oh, it's good. things are okay.
[00:44:48] Caroline: And she'll look at me and give me like a death stare and stare into my soul and like, just drill right in there. And she's like, no, how is your heart? And I'm like, Oh, don't ask me that, because it's not [00:45:00] good today. Or, maybe it is good, Um, but having those people and I keep, I feel like I'm kind of a broken record because it is so, so important.
[00:45:08] Caroline: Like we need those people in our lives that we can have those conversations with, you know, and I'm not saying, and
[00:45:15] Sonia: so Caroline, what challenges do people typically face when they're trying to be vulnerable, especially in the context of addiction? Okay.
[00:45:24] Caroline: know, I think trust is something that can take a long time to build back and not just trust with specific individuals that may have caused us harm, but trust in general for other human beings. especially when we've experienced a lot of. adverse, you know, childhood experiences and different things where the people in our lives who are supposed to be supportive and trustworthy and all of these things stable are not, it can really rock our sense of just anyone in general being trustworthy.
[00:45:53] Caroline: And so, I think that was something that I struggled with for a very long
[00:45:56] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:45:57] Caroline: and being able [00:46:00] to work through some of that, it did take time and it took, Other people in my life kind of showing up in a way that showed me, you know what? Not everyone's all bad,
[00:46:13] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:46:13] Caroline: don't have to keep hiding from the world because not everyone is out to hurt me.
[00:46:18] Caroline: And sometimes that takes time to learn. I wish there was like an easy solution and an easy answer for that. Sometimes it just takes time. But I do know that for me, being in recovery helped that process go a lot more quickly because when I was using substances, I was not opening myself authentically to be able to learn how to trust and to see other people as trustworthy.
[00:46:43] Caroline: I was still isolating even around people. I had this insulation of, um, I was totally isolated and desensitized from connecting with another person. Um, yeah. So, [00:47:00] I
[00:47:02] Kathleen: think that it happens a lot. I even see like through social media, which can be evil and good, but you know, that comparison or the judgment being fear of being canceled or judged, are there any practical steps that you think can help overcome that fear of being judged when someone is radically vulnerable?
[00:47:25] Caroline: think this falls a lot on kind of the community around us, and it's part of why I do a lot of my writing around, this idea of judgment, grace, kind of how do we work through some of the stigmatizing feelings that we, we have. I actually wrote an article recently, and it's called, I'm Not Like You. and other lies we tell ourselves.
[00:47:45] Caroline: Interestingly, people really responded to it because I think that, this idea of like, we are not like each other keeps us so separate. You know, I can say, Oh, you over there with the addiction issue, you have your thing over here. I'm not like this, but we are [00:48:00] so alike. It doesn't matter what our thing is.
[00:48:02] Caroline: I feel, I truly believe that we're all in recovery from something. And so whether that thing is substances, alcohol, other drugs, social media, our food, food, exactly, um, relationships, like whatever our thing is. we're all in recovery. So when we can start breaking down those barriers, but I believe it, it really is, a call to action to the community to, do like, we all need to do our own work so we can get to a place where these walls are coming down and we see each other for who we are, which is we're human.
[00:48:34] Caroline: We're all dealing with our own stuff. You know, we have no right to judge or look down on anyone else because we all have our own stuff going on. And when we're radically honest and vulnerable, we realize that. We realize how much more alike we are than different.
[00:48:49] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:48:50] Sonia: I love that, and I think that, that kind of lack of judgment, what does that have to do with self compassion to you, and what role does self compassion play in radical [00:49:00] vulnerability?
[00:49:00] Caroline: Well, I remember when I first came back from addiction treatment. I was 17 and, came back from inpatient treatment, and I was ready to be on this recovery journey. I was super excited I had met other younger people in recovery You know who were trying to get sober and so I came back to the high school where I got Sick in where I started my substance use disorder, and I remember that first day walking back You know I had finally done my hair again, and I had you know had my backpack on I was walking down the hall, and I'll never forget I started hearing the calls of people Saying loser You know, crackhead, um, and walking down this hall and hearing these echoes and it was like immediately I was just shot down like that shame, that heavy coat, that I was talking about that thing.
[00:49:49] Caroline: I put that right back on instantly. Instantly, and so having that experience of what it was like to feel that stigma and feel that judgment. [00:50:00] Uh, just reinforces and today I can still just put myself back in that hallway, that high school hallway, but reinforces just how needed the reverse is grace. You know, if someone would have come up alongside me and said, I'm really proud of you,
[00:50:15] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:50:17] Caroline: um, you're ready to do something different.
[00:50:20] Caroline: recovery is actually a real thing that people can do and you can live a different life. someone to come alongside us and say that and believe it to be true versus this stigmatizing place, this box that we can get put into as a quote unquote addict or alcoholic. Um, it can just be so transformational.
[00:50:37] Caroline: And later in life, I would have that. I would, I've had people come alongside me to say those things. And most importantly, I've had the example of other women in recovery specifically for me, older women who have shown me like, wow, is possible, and have shown me the reverse and have allowed me to take that coat off and never put it back on again.
[00:50:58] Caroline: Like, and I've written [00:51:00] about some really like talk about radical vulnerability. I'm pointing to my book here for your listeners. I talk about some really gritty stuff in there and things that I've done. I'm not proud of, and my mom and I were laughing. It's like, I cannot believe my neighbors are going to read this.
[00:51:13] Caroline: Like, Oh my goodness. But I don't. I'm saying that stuff and I'm being honest and I'm being radically vulnerable and I'm not putting on that coat. I don't have to have shame over the things that I've done, what's been done to me, the places I've gone. I don't have to live in that place. I can live free and I can give myself grace today.
[00:51:33] Caroline: And part because of how I've seen other women walk with that grace.
[00:51:38] Kathleen: Thank you. I think that's a beautiful message. place to end today and I just really thank you so much for all the wisdom you shared with us today. You can pick up Caroline's new book, You Are Not Your Trauma. Where can you pick that up, Caroline?
[00:51:54] Caroline: Anywhere books are sold,
[00:51:55] Kathleen: Wonderful and thank you so much everyone for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we'll see you [00:52:00] next week.
[00:52:00]