021 | Co-Creating Vs Dictating in a Bar | Why you shouldn't worry about conquering a bar and instead fit in | Part 2/2 of the Interview with Alex Frezza, from L'Antiquario (Napoli, Italy).

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, We continue interviewing Alex Frezza, Owner of L'Antiquario Bar in Naples, part of the World's 50 Best Bars. He's credited with building up the Neapolitan Cocktail Bar Scene, provides top-shelf hospitality and, best of all, recognized me when I was a customer at his bar. I hope you enjoy his wisdom as much as I did.

Main topics discussed:

From 0 to 1 bottle

• The importance of the Target Occasion

• How occasions change by City, State, and Country

• Dark Demand Generation

From 1 bottle to 1 case

• Up or Out: how cool bar owners choose their brands

• Analyzing cocktail menus to decide where to focus on

• Avoid brands vs. following brands: different strategies

From 1 case to 1 pallet

• Big brands & the taste setting effect

• Choosing the right Distributor for your brand.

• Localization Challenges

About the Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Maffeo⁠⁠⁠⁠

About the Guest: Alex Frezza

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Alex Frezza

Co-Owner | L'Antiquario Bar Napoli

What is MAFFEO DRINKS: Industry & Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Hi and welcome to the Mafair
Drinks Podcast.

I'm Chris Mafair, founder of
Mafair Drinks, where we provide

the nonsense approach to
building drinks brands from the

bottom up.
I will be your host and in each

episode I will interview a
drinks builder from the drinks

and hospitality ecosystem.
In episode 20 and 21, I had the

pleasure and honor of
interviewing Alex Ritzer.

He's the owner and founder of
Land Equadion Apoli.

Currently #46 on the global list
of 50 best bars.

He's a bar legend in Italy and
internationally.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, so if you liked it,
feel free to listen to both part

one and two of our chat.
Tell me like how how do you

drink?
Like what's fascinating for our

listeners is really
understanding how to build, you

know, from the bottom up a brand
now.

So like if I want to enter your
bar, like who brings in the

idea, for example, of drinks to
put in a cocktail list?

Or like is it more of a top down
process like from you to the

team or is it like more of a
democratic or bottom up with

some of the younger team members
bringing in some ideas from from

somewhere else.
How?

How does that work?
There is no democracy.

I decide everything.
I'm joking that there is some

level of democracy in bars
lately.

We have lots of weird liquors
that have maybe have inspiration

from perfumes or different kind
of combinations.

So it's something quite new that
you can't immediately pinpoint

in a cocktail rule or structure.
So usually we kind of play

around with it.
Antiquariano is has has an area

in the basement which is like
the cemetery of bottles where we

tried something.
It goes there, You know, maybe

we will touch it after two
months because we have an idea

that is very bad because, you
know, after a while I have to

literally have to throw the
bottles away because we don't

use them.
But so now we're a bit more

selective.
We have a process in which we

try it, You know, we try to
understand where we can apply

that product.
And sometimes we don't have the

application for it immediately,
but all of a sudden after a

year, we get the opportunity
where we can use that, you know,

maybe for a special event or a
special request and maybe we

will need it.
We try things and we try to see

how much, first of all, the
price, We try to understand what

the drink cost is.
If you're selling me a liquor

and you expect me to use 2
ounces of it in every cocktail.

Then I want to know how much it
costs because maybe I will have

to break it down to 10 ML, you
know quarter of an ounce or four

for an ounce for cocktail.
So maybe I will see how little

can I use on this and still make
it perceive the value for the

client.
So we kind of work that out.

Some things just apply very well
to certain things we do and we

use them.
And so some people end up you

being used in our menu and they
didn't, they didn't spend the

euro for marketing.
Other times, you know, brands

have to be pushed and we have to
kind of be supported a little

bit more.
Like vermouth is an example.

There are lots of brands of
vermouth.

Now, how many Vermouths can I
use in a bar?

I can have maybe a vermouth for
Negroni and a vermouth for

Manhattan, you know, but I have
to kind of balance it.

I will.
I will have a deal for a main

vermouth, but I will still buy
another free vermouths on the

side to give a bit of variety.
And maybe we will decide that

you know this will move we
prefer for Manhattans, OK.

And the and the deal that we
have for the main vermove, it's

because we will put it in our
main cocktail that we know that

will sell and so we can push it
there and we know that we all

have the quantity.
We don't have to sell it

forcingly to clients.
We will sell automatically

because we know what kind of
clock codes sell, what kind of

keywords work with clients.
So you know, we know that that

is done.
And then maybe we can offer a

bit of variety on the side, but
you have to be prepared as a

brand to be a side option first
because lots of brands come and

they say, right, what can we do
to be in the menu.

And I said, well, maybe you
can't do anything, you know,

maybe you don't have the, the
resources or the product.

But what I can do is you can be
here and you have to just make

do with one bottle a week and it
maybe will take two years to

become something that I can sell
widely.

And now finally understood why
Napoli Sotterrani, Napoli

underground is so big because
there's a there's a cemetery of

both.
Source.

From Arts of Napoli in the
underground.

But how do you see for example
like in that example of a

vermouth or or another
ingredients to to up trace.

Imagine you've got a Negroni
mate with a vermouth that is a

more basic kind of option
because of, you know, for from a

cost structure.
Do you think there is an

opportunity to, for example,
upsell it and say, you know, I

would like it with that kind of
vermouth or that kind of gene or

that kind of whatever bitter and
and you upcharge me to allow me

to do that or you wouldn't even
consider that?

Upselling is something that has
changed a lot in the past five

or six years because upselling
became a skill when we all of a

sudden we have luxury brands,
OK, We don't have that before

and so all of a sudden you have.
The same product that costs

three times the price.
So obviously to sell it you have

to invent some sort of skill to
sell it.

Today, sometimes the upselling
is not on the premium value of

the brand, it's just simply the
taste profile of it, OK.

And to upsell, the first rule of
upselling is that I have to 1st

sell you one or two things
before you can't upsell

directly.
You know I have to sell you a

normal Negroni.
First you pay the price of

normal Negroni and then I can
pitch you for the 2nd Negroni.

Say right?
Would you like to pay €5 more

for this Negroni?
I will give you a better gin in

it.
That doesn't always work today,

because anyhow cocktails have
gone up in value.

You cannot sell if you have a
very low value of cocktails and

then you want such a premium,
but if the medium value of

cocktails has risen anyway.
You're already drinking a good

cocktail if you go in any bar
that makes cocktails.

The brands in the world are good
anyway.

You don't have like something
that you would drink in a street

bar in Nikonos in a cocktail
bar, but that is very difficult

today.
The upselling maybe is enough

storytelling.
The quality of the products, the

some sort of value that the
products gives to the clients

that you can transform into
communication.

Some sort of little curiosity
that catches the eye of the

client.
So they will see it and say what

is that and you start speaking
about it.

But you know some clients want
to be upselled, some clients

don't.
So it's very difficult to have

that as a brand strategy.
Saying right, I will give you

this bottle and you can sell it
for €2.00 more and make more

profit.
Maybe I can make more profits on

a lower value product given an
added value with what I make

with it.
Yes, that's a very peculiar

situation because I mean you are
really like it one of the top

bars.
My question is probably more and

more average kind of bar on what
they would do with it, because

then their price range would be
lower and I would still like to

sell you that brand and try to
sneak in because I know that

otherwise I'm out of the game.
Average bars have two ways of

positioning themselves.
For them it's very important to

have the brand Okay, like when I
opened Lante Quad, we had a very

normal vodka Okay in the world.
Now, vodka is very difficult to

upgrade because you go from very
basic level to something that

costs four times that much.
There's no in between in vodka.

OK.
It's very difficult to give a

scale while whiskey, you have
three steps of whiskey.

You know, gin, you can have
different price levels that are

very close.
Vodka is either one or ten, OK.

And so all of a sudden I had
bars in my area that were going

out of their way to buy very
premium vodka and putting it in

the well.
And that kind of put me off

because that is not fair
competition, Okay, because maybe

I'm working on making it the
best cocktail I can with a

medium price vodka.
And all you're doing is

positioning yourself with the
brands, you're paying it more,

you're selling it at a lower
price, maybe just to position

yourself.
So an average bar will do that.

They will want to have the brand
to show off.

Or they will try to maximize the
perceived value of the client.

So they will do very elaborate
cocktails, you know, they will

show that they can do very good
cocktails and not show the

brand.
Like, you know, maybe they will

do a wonderful dietary with a
very cheap rum, which is good,

and they will do it to the best
ice with a wonderful shake I

made, you know, And you will be
willing to pay €13.00 for the

dietary, which is.
Average run, but very well

executed.
This is very difficult.

It's a longer path, it takes
longer time and it takes more

work.
Buying the brand and putting the

brand in front of the people is
much easier.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Let's talk about this menu.
I mean, you mentioned the menu

on rent.
It's the dream of every company

to own the bar.
No.

You know, like, I know Alex from
Lanteguario.

I'm working for XY Big company.
I want them to be our bar.

I want him to stock all our
products.

How does that work in, in terms
of visibility for example in the

mirror?
So the first question is like

how do you navigate working with
different brands at the same

time, like being let you buy
directly from them?

And then the second question
would be more like what what do

you see in terms of cocktails on
the menu like and them pushing

you to own a little bit of a
bigger part of the pie and you

know, being mentioned on the
menu, being mentioned as a brand

in the recipe of the menu and so
forth.

It's a very difficult game.
You're on a string, you know you

have to balance the credibility
of the bar and the credibility

of the brand.
Now they have to be more or less

at the same level, because if
I'm not a very credible bar and

you walk in and you see that I
have all the products of 1 brand

on the menu.
Then you will see, right, this

guy sold off his bar to this
brand.

Given that lots of clients don't
know that different brands are

from the same multinational.
So maybe I know, but that is not

readable by the clients.
If the client sees that in every

gene cocktail there's the same
gene, then that will ring a bell

and say right, You know they
only use this string if you're a

really strong bar.
Then maybe that can become A

plus, because the clients will
think, right.

If this bar decided to use just
this gin, it means that it's the

best gin.
The problem is that who has the

money to buy a menu in a bar has
the money to buy many other

menus too.
So the client will come to me

and he will see major brand on
the menu.

He will go to another bar and
see it there too.

And maybe I don't want to be
like the other bar.

So you have to compromise on
that.

I don't think menus today are
that important because you know,

I remember when we opened the
bar, we had a deal with a brand.

I didn't have the products on
the menu, but I had a whiskey.

I had a very good deal on a
whiskey brands that nobody had

because we had the did a very
good deal on the quantity and

everything.
And so every time that I lifted

that bottle of whiskey from the
well.

And the client saw it.
His eyebrows went up and he

said, wow, you had that whiskey
in the world.

And I said yes, you know, so
maybe that is worth more than

having it in the menu.
Sometimes just having a bottle

on the back bar in the visible
spots and some bars is worth

more.
Just one bottle.

If you have a brand block of it
that smells a little bit, you

know you have to find the
balance in your bar with your

clients and sometimes.
Putting the brand that look on

the menu today in 2023 isn't the
most credible thing.

That's a very interesting point
because this is considered by

many, many companies to be the
ultimate prize.

You know, like when you have the
video game that's the final

monster, like the first monster
is the very hard, and then the

beverage menu, then, you know,
I'm in the cocktail list and

that's the final monster.
And then I beat up the monster

and you know, and I'm in.
But that works.

I know friends that have bars.
That they literally sell

positions in the menu, Okay
every year they would like do an

auction and they will say right,
this year one product in one

cocktail cost €5000 ban.
But that puts me in a position

where every year I have to
renegotiate the menu.

I have to put my own marketing
in the menu because obviously if

I.
Have to put a brand.

I have to, you know, make sure
that the menu is visible.

It works and that's also an
effort, but that doesn't make me

build a long term relationship
with brands.

I can build at the same time a
long lasting relationship with

multinationals without putting
brands in the menu and making

sure that I use their product
anyway.

So you know that maybe building
a long term relationship is

better.
Been having to rebuild one every

year.
Exactly, exactly.

And there are like more subtle
ways because when I work with

brands, they tend to push this
old thing and how many cocktails

are you in?
How many bar, How many back bars

are you?
And I always try to explain to

them, it's like, it's not about
that, it's about the

relationship.
Because a bar needs to have

different relationship with
different brands, because that's

the old thing about it.
If you work in a bar, you you

want to have a relationship with
everyone because that's

ultimately you, you know, I
don't want to come to Antigua

and only drink, drink Negroni or
only drink a certain style of

whiskey because you know you
have a deal with it.

I want to come to you to
discover new things, to to rely

on you as an expert.
Now I feel it's very difficult

to convey to big brands, you
know, to this leaders that

probably, you know, they're not
familiar anymore with how buzz

work and it's very, it's a very
difficult conversation.

So it becomes this kind of top
down push from what you were

saying, from global to local,
from the Super mega CEOMD

pushing it down because because
that person loves Negroni.

So the strategy is going to be
Negroni because whenever I

travel, I want to have a Negroni
in each of these bars, then it's

masked by consumer research and
then by an advertising agency

and so on.
But ultimately, it's it's a

personal taste almost, huh?
Also it it also depends on how

you measure value today.
Value is measured on how many

people see something and people
value something in a limited

time.
They have to bring results in a

year, so they will count what is
done in that year.

And sometimes the way you value
the visibility can't be or it

can't be measured in six months
or a year, maybe in this measure

in three years.
And not everybody has the time

for that.
So I understand brands that come

and they want, you know, the
brand block bar because they

need the photos on Instagram.
They need to put them in their

PowerPoint presentation for the
company at the end of the month

because they have the reunion,
you know, So I understand that.

But you have to help me to make
that work so that you keep your

job in your company and you have
the right.

Your content to put in your
PowerPoint presentation to show

you to your American Corporate
Co that will come to Italy to

see you you know help me help
you.

It goes back to the point that
you know probably like this new

digital world has has messed a
few things up with this vanity

metrics not the likes and shares
and comments and so on.

And and we tend to to focus on
measuring what we can measure

rather than what we should
measure.

You know, because it's easy to
say bottle on the back bar, you

know, I can send anybody in,
knock on the door, check it and

put yes or no on it.
You know, it's more difficult to

actually have a relationship
with you and really see or

actually all the bartenders of
Lanteguario, they were talking

about this brand.
You know, it was never on the

menu, but they all talk about
this.

Maybe they talk about on their
social media, they talk about

with their peer.
There is a podcast that I

follow, it's called Revenue
Vitals and it's on SAS marketing

and they call it dark social.
It's this hidden things that you

never know about, you know, like
it could be you taking a

screenshot of the podcast,
sending it to a WhatsApp group

of your friends in bars.
I will never find out about it.

I just see a number that 10 new
people listen to my podcast this

month.
I have no idea who they are.

I don't know.
I have no idea like how they

came to it.
But you know, what I should

focus on is to, you know,
deliver a consistent, quality

podcast episodes and the numbers
will come.

It's not about.
This day was 10/10 followers and

for a week there is only five.
And then I'm a failure and I

close the podcast.
You know it.

It doesn't work like that.
It's because you don't have the

instruments to get immediately
to the cause of that effect.

So you don't, you know, you tend
to measure it with the closest

thing you have and often it's
not the right measurement.

I'll give you an example on
exclusivity.

Brands would like exclusivity
with people in the industry.

OK, Obviously not always they
can afford it because if you

want exclusivity, you have to
pay for it because you're

closing other opportunities for
me.

But sometimes brands realize.
That the real value is working

with somebody that works with
other brands, because that means

that that person is credible.
If the person works with too

many brands, then he's selling
out.

But if he works with our brands
and does a good job with them

and does, as has been doing it
for many years, then obviously

there must be something good
with that person.

You want to understand why he's
good and then you give them a

chance and you work with that
person.

And you see that he delivers
content, you know, and slowly

you build a relationship.
And so, like I work with

multinationals as a compete
against each other on the

market.
But then we managed to find a

way that I work with them with
another brand.

And I have like gentlemen
agreements with them that don't

have to be written down on
payment on paper, that I don't

cross the lines between each
other absolutely.

But sometimes it's a bigger
value, working with more brands

together and not having
exclusivity.

This is also like the thing
about working as an ecosystem

now, because ultimately what I
usually say is that for a brand

to be successfully, that's to
make sense for importers, for

the distributors and for the
bar.

Because you're not going to have
everybody only selling your

brand because you know, like
next week there's going to be

another company coming in with
their senior leaders.

Doing a tour, So if you make it
up, you know it doesn't really

help because like that guy's
going to be on holidays on his

own without telling you and he's
never going to find that bottle

on the back bar.
So you know, be honest and make

sure that it makes you know it
makes sense for everyone in in

the system to actually work with
you because otherwise it's

unsustainable.
It may work, but it may work for

a week, a month, a year.
But then like longterm, there's

no chance.
Let me ask you a question like,

because this is a very
interesting for me talking about

target occasions and how we
discuss our brands.

Sometimes they push the target
occasion that doesn't make sense

or a cocktail that doesn't make
sense.

You know, there's some book
example and so on.

How would you group this?
Kind of like target occasions

that because then there's not,
they're not infinite target

occasion, right.
You know there is a, I don't

know, like a predinner, A
Paradivo, like a dinner, dining

with that brand, or after dinner
or late night or whatever.

How do you see this old thing
and what kind of, like cocktails

are best suited for certain
things?

And and so forth.
Target occasion targeting is a

term that is born in a
PowerPoint presentation that you

have to give, that you have to
pitch your company or your

sellers to focus on.
It can mean something different

for you and for me are
apperative and predinner.

What is the difference between a
predinner and apperative?

It's a it's a difference of
culture.

In Italy, a predinner is an
apperative.

In Germany, maybe a predinner is
a masini cocktail, which is not

an apperative okay.
So culture makes a difference on

drinking occasions.
And obviously you have to apply

the same product in different
cultures in different way.

Sometimes you can apply an
Italian culture in a different

nation and it works.
Sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes you have to rethink
completely of that product.

You know Margarita's in Mexico.
You drink from 4:00 in the

afternoon on the beach to 3:00
in the morning in Italy.

Maybe drinking I might get eat
on a beach, you know, in July at

2:00 in the afternoon is a bit
difficult.

You know, maybe you want to sell
the spritz much easier.

So drinking occasions are
important, but they change, you

know, and some brands have to
learn that have a very, very

narrow drinking occasion range
and they will never be able to

do the numbers of other drinking
occasion ranges.

So that is very hard to accept
sometimes and this is like

because it it goes back to
driving rotation or velocity.

Like you know some brands are
focusing much more on the neat

sipping kind of like occasion.
You know some brands are more

like want to be in cocktails but
then there's the catch 22.

Now that you know if you are at
just the modifier in a cocktail,

you're never going to make the
numbers.

So, but at the same time,
espresso martini, you know,

nobody's going to drink espresso
martini or evening kind of

thing.
I'll give you an example.

There is a very important
Italian importer that imports

very kind of high quality
products, OK, from Ron to gin to

whiskey, has some exclusive
deals with very important

whiskey brands, gin brands and
brings them to Italy, right, the

agents what they would do as it
was very kind of high quality.

They would go and sell only
restaurants, okay, because that

was the best pitch where you
could sell, you know, the best

whiskey for after dinner.
They never put the efforts into

going to cocktail bars and
selling it there because it's

much, much more difficult, much
more competition.

The client chooses in a
different way.

In a restaurant, if I spend €100
to eat, maybe it's not that bad

spending €20 for the last
whiskey.

Or maybe the restaurant, if you
spend €150.00 to eat, will offer

you.
A good whiskey at the end

because they can put it in the
the food cost of the evening

while in the bar.
That product, I have to value it

only for when I sell it to you
so that you know the drink cost

is worth what it's worth and I
have to make money on that.

And they never went there.
All of a sudden they realized

that and they rearranged the
strategy of the agents and they

said, right, we have to have
more clients in on trade bars

with these products.
It took them maybe three or four

years.
To build the the network And now

all of a sudden you find these
products even in drinking

occasions and times that weren't
considered before.

Because like you said the neat
drinking neat.

Drinking is a very slippery
issue.

Because you know when do you
drink neat?

Is it always associated with the
food mean after dinner?

Or if you're a person that
drinks neat, you always drink

neat at any time of the day?
You know, and also to sell neat

products, you need a completely
different knowledge from selling

cocktails.
It's a completely different

planet.
That's a great like selling

champagne and cocktails.
Completely different.

That's a good point.
And you said that an interesting

word before you said ecosystem.
Ecosystem is not a word that you

use in our industry at all, but
you use it in a in a different

way because like this importer,
what they did is they created an

ecosystem in which you know.
The agents go and they present

different products of different
categories together that maybe

work together to support each
other.

And maybe you have products that
have different brands behind

them that maybe can converge in
one sale pitch, you know, and it

can be solved together like
sometimes like Prosecco.

Prosecco in Italy is something
that everybody sells.

Often it's sold by the price.
The cheaper it is the better so

it doesn't make it doesn't make
much difference which you buy.

Often people buy Prosecco
according to what other products

that the supers has.
Maybe you have the Amaro I want

and to make you know the sale I
will buy the Prosecco 2 from you

so that I get the the total
value of the order I want to do.

Because what I want is you're a
matter, not your Prosecco.

Yeah.
And so sometimes Prosecco became

a byproduct that you just put in
because everybody buys it here

in Italy.
Yeah, it's a little bit like

with tonics or with mixers and
like that.

Sometimes it's almost like given
out with a big order of.

Bones.
But now mixers are becoming a

premium product, so it's
difficult for mixers too.

Yes, I can.
Maybe.

Maybe the opposite is coming is
becoming now that you buy the

mixer and they will give you the
gin as an option.

And is it worth for brands to
target on one specific occasion

or or drink at the beginning
because you know the the foot in

the door kind of situation now
in which I'm coming to you and I

don't want to be just another
product.

So I I want to give you some
ammunition to to to say, OK,

like this is the brand for
certain kind of pallets and I

like a miscal, a very
approachable miscal in terms of

mokiness or you know, it's an
eyely whiskey but it's not that

much pitted or this.
Bartenders need solutions, not

problems.
So if you come with a product,

you have to come with a solution
to.

A bartender has many products
and you it can't work out.

How to sell all of them?
Like I I I have maybe 70

whiskeys, Scotch whiskeys at the
brand.

I could I can only have maybe 8
in my mind at the same time to

sell.
OK And I sell them in

categories.
You know, if you come to me and

tell me right, this whiskey is
for this client and that client

really exists, you know, in real
life, then when that client will

come to me and he will make that
request, I will have the whiskey

for him.
So I I think it's always better

to start from a niche to
conquering your little tile of

terrain, be king there and then
maybe expand it.

But that works with everything.
It works with any kind of

product.
Think of the gin that branded,

branded cucumber Okay.
What did they do?

They said right, every gin is
the same.

I will put my brand on a
vegetable, not on the gin.

So when you look at a gin tonic
with that vegetable in it, you

will recognize my brand and I
will work just on that.

You know, let me be the best
Amaro for after dinner, like it

happened with certain amaros in
Italy that they were, they were

selling them so much in
restaurants that all of a sudden

they will request them in bars.
And so we had to go to the sales

group and say, right, you never
walked to sell me the summer

though I have people asking for
it.

When are you going to come and
sell it to me?

Do I have to come and look for
you or are you going to come to

me?
So you know, if you get really

strong in your niche, you will
expand automatically afterwards

because you can't control.
So where people go after that?

Absolutely.
Like the Amato categor, like,

it's so fascinating to me the
success for some Amato brands

that are, you know, drank all
around the world now.

I mean now my my eye has leaped
on my on my back.

But I, you know, I've got
Montenegro and Internet Branca

there.
When you were talking about a

matter selling to bars, like my
eye just went on on those

bottles and you know, what do
you think has been the secret?

How did they go from a kind of
like a dormant category to a the

hip thing in in in bars across
the world?

Like the two bottles you have
behind you are both Amari, but

they're completely different.
Yeah, they're on the both ends

of the of the.
Spectrum and I think Amaro.

The success of Amaro has to be
kind of analyzed in different

aspects.
Trends perceive the value taste

How the taste applies to
different pallets around the

world.
In a group in a contrasting way

or in a parallel way, like you
know, if you want to sell Fermin

to Branca in America while
they're selling Jaeger Myset,

you're going to have lots of
difficulty because Jaeger Myset

is setting the palette of what
an Amato should be.

But maybe Jaeger Myset isn't
selling like an Amato, it's

selling like a liqueur.
And so it's completely out

positioning what the brand
should be.

And it's going to ruin it for
everybody else that wants to go

in that niche afterwards.
So, I mean, I've been to San

Francisco and I've seen how they
sell.

They started selling Fennete
Branca there at shops with beer.

Nobody would do that in Italy.
They find their own way to do

it.
You know, there is a legend that

chefs were pissed with all these
college kids drinking

Jägermeister shots, that they
chose the Armada which was the

most bitter, and they started
drinking that.

Because their palate was the
only one that could understand

that kind of bitterness.
And so when somebody asked him

what he drinking, I said, right,
I'm drinking this really nice

Italian model have a shot.
And then people drunk it and

they couldn't deal with the
bitterness.

They thought, fuck, this is
really strange.

If you're drinking this, it must
be really good.

So I want the shot of this too,
you know, Although it's not.

It's completely it's like when
you go to a foreign country and

you see everybody drinking this
weirdest foods.

To go out of my boundary and try
it.

Because if everybody is eating
it here, it must be really local

and good.
Yeah, that's true.

That's true.
Fantastic.

Let's wrap it up.
I want to give you first first

some space to give a tip to the
next generation of bartender.

And then secondly, how can
people find you and find your

bar?
So what would you say to so the

next generation like on people
entering the the hospitality and

and and drinks world.
Right.

I'm I'm 46 years old and I have
a white beard and white hair,

and I'm still working behind the
bar occasionally.

So it's a new bartender.
That's the people, new people

that want to come into this
industry.

I'd say be patient, Okay, build
your profession so that you can

do it for the rest of your life.
Build the profession.

Don't build a trend.
Okay.

Don't be an image.
Be something more valuable than

that.
In our business, build slowly,

Okay.
Don't go after instant success

because that doesn't exist.
Find positions that value your

work.
Don't go after position that

build up your resume.
And that's it.

Five years in the same work in
the same place.

Maybe I'm worth more than five
years in five different places a

year each.
OK, Learn as much as you can

from people that have more
experience for you.

And today that is very difficult
because they're not that many

people with experience in this
business anymore.

So if you find someone that's
been in the business for 30

years, try to understand what's
good and what's bad about him

and make the difference and try
to take only the good things.

Take great value in that because
in five years maybe there won't

be anybody in this business that
has been there for more than 10

years.
OK?

I've started working with people
that were in the business for 30

years.
Now that's completely gone.

And what else?
Before you be a bartender,

remember to be a good waiter
today, bartenders want to be

just bartenders.
Hospitality is an ecosystem, as

you say, of many things and have
to put them all together.

And then what else?
How to find me?

Well, come to Naples.
I always say come to for the

pizza and stay for the
cocktails.

Then nobody comes to Naples to
see Lante, Choiria or me.

They only come to see Capri,
have a pizza, go to Sorrento, go

to Pompei, you know, drink, eat
or champagne or whatever.

And then they land at Lante
Choir.

So I'm.
I'm always maybe the 10th

option.
So, you know, come to Naples,

visit Naples and then you'll
find me.

Don't worry.
Nice, nice, nice.

I just want to build on what you
previously said about being a

waiter before being a bartender.
And I can witness that because I

was, I was honestly impressed
when when I met you.

And you know when you start your
shift and I was, I was there

having a drink, you were waiting
tables, you were not behind the

bar, you were waiting tables.
And I was impressed.

And I said like, look at this
guy.

I mean like he's he's the owner
of the place and he's waiting

tables and it it shocked me in a
positive way because I said like

this is really somebody that
loves his work and as a passion

for what he does and it's not
just an owner only.

I'll tell you the story, brief
story of How I Met Chris Mafail.

OK, I was waiting the tables in
my own bar and when I have

tourists from from Naples or
from Italy.

And I never approached them
immediately because I might

scare them.
So I want to be very delicate in

approaching tourists, although I
would like to chat with all of

them and ask them where they're
from.

So I didn't.
I didn't approach them

immediately.
They were at the bar drinking

with the bartender, and they
were happily sitting there.

And all of a sudden I heard that
there was about the podcast.

And I thought, ah, this was
these must be interesting

people, you know?
And then I realized that they

were from the industry.
So I thought, ah.

Let me understand who they are
because they might be

infiltrated here.
So I ask them who they are.

I don't want to discover
tomorrow who was in my bar

today.
I always have to understand

immediately.
So I I I sneaked up behind them

and I said, ah, good evening,
gentlemen.

Are you speaking about the
podcast?

And they said yes, you know, we
we have a podcast.

My name is Chris Macphail and
the name didn't say anything to

me yet.
And then I decided speaking and

they said, no, we have a
podcast.

And I said, well, you know, I
follow a podcast, you know, now

of a friend of mine called
Philip Duff.

And I and I know speaking.
And he said, ah, I was on the

podcast recently.
I said, ah, you're the beer guy.

And Chris must fail, Did the
biggest smile I've seen in Lante

choir since I opened eight years
ago.

He said, yes, I'm the guy of the
beer.

Yes, that's me.
I said, yeah, I followed your

podcast.
Wonderful.

And that's how he met.
And and that is the only reason

I'm here today is because I
recognize if it's not failing my

boss.
That's true and I thank you for

that and it's I can witness
that's that's the real story and

it's incredible how you know by
by talking.

And again the other the other
insight about that is that I was

marked enough to go early in the
evening because we came in at

six when you just open because
if I had done that at 10:00 PM

with a full bar, you know we
probably would have never said a

word to each other.
We would have never discovered

each other and you know and
never met.

So that's the other, the other
thing about the, you know, the

industry is not only about rush
hours and peak times, but it's,

you know, it's like meet the
people in let's say in the wrong

times because that's where the
the best things happen actually.

Exactly, exactly.
Thank you very much, Chris.

It's been a it's been a
pleasure.

I would like to argue a bit more
review, but we didn't manage to

argue today.
I'm sorry, I would like to argue

with people.
We'll take it for a for a for

the next one.
We'll take it for the next one.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, so if you liked it,

feel free to listen to both part
one and two of our chat.

That's all for today.
I hope you gained valuable

insights.
If you liked it, please rate it

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