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In this episode, Niki interviews Elea Chang, disability justice advocate, community organizer, and artist. The two discuss the capitalist notion of the "pandemic being over," and the ways in which disability justice offers a pathway of care, solidarity, and safety in these uncertain times. In this, they also discuss the limitations of representation and identity politics in an economy that commodifies it all.
Elea is the creator of Disabled and Here, an interview and stock images celebrating disabled BIPOC.
join niki franco (venus roots), a community organizer, writer, and facilitator of spaces for collective study, as she leans into conversations of radical truth-telling with artists, theorists, and organizers living in a world of rigid binaries and multiple truths. she navigates the urgency of solidarity, ancestral preservation, and dismantling systems of oppression that inform and deform our lives.
@venusroots
www.venusroots.com
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Hi everyone. It has been a while
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and I'm sorry that I have not been
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on here, but I'm very grateful
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and excited to be returning
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to the show
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with another organizer
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who's up to really incredible work
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and really incredible creative
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endeavors that we're going to get
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into shortly.
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But without further
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ado, welcome.
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Ali, welcome to the show.
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Thanks for having me.
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No, thank you for taking the time.
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I know it's a little earlier on the
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side of the country.
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So, Ellie, can you ground us a
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little bit on your sort of work?
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I know you're an incredible
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disability justice organizer,
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artists, community builder,
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and I know you hold a lot of titles.
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But I'm curious, you know, what
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values anchor your work
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and kind of like what are the values
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that make you wake up every
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day and continue to do this type of
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I don't know if I would call them
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values per say, but the things
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that really drive me is just
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I really just want to affirm
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and celebrate and
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care for multiple marginalized
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bipoc particularly disabled
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just to really get the message
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across that, you know,
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you are not alone.
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It may feel like that sometimes.
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I know a lot of disabled people
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or a lot of bipoc living
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in certain parts of the country feel
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very isolated and othered.
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And a lot of my work is about
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reassuring you that you are
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not alone.
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There are other people who empathize
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with you who are going through
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similar things, not the exact same
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things, but please never
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feel like you are the only one
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out there.
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And plus, I just want to remind
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people that we all have, like, power
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and agency,
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not necessarily in, like, the same
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amounts, obviously,
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but we all do have some
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degree of power in agency
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and whatever way we can find
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to exercise, that is
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just super important
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to moving forward in life.
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I don't know. Those are just like
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very fancy ways of being like,
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that's my way of loving on people.
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So that's that's really
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a lot of what my work is driven by.
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this this notion of care,
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which I feel like we've all been
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thinking more expansively
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of what care means through this
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pandemic.
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I think seeing all the displays of
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mutual aid of
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folks sort of reimagining like
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how we show up for one another and
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ourselves and these times,
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yeah, like even for myself, it makes
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me think a lot about what care means
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and like what how we embody
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I'm also on that on that note,
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Ali, I'm thinking around the ways in
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which through this pandemic, through
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COVID 19,
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I think by masses,
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we are consciously thinking a lot
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more about
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in some ways, actually not
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everybody, but a lot of folks,
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a lot of us are thinking about what
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disability justice looks like,
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could look like, especially under
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an economy that does not care
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about us, that does not have that
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value of care for our people.
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And I'm curious, through this
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pandemic, what are some of the
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notice things or observations you
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have noted in how folks are
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relating to,
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you know, disability justice work or
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even care work, right?
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Mm hmm.
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I want to caveat this by saying,
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like, I still feel pretty new to
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disability justice myself because
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I was only introduced to it in 2017
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through to Lila Lewis,
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an incredible organizer,
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abolitionist, the of
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attorney.
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And so I
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haven't been in the disability
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justice space as long
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as as long as many other people.
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But still, I notice that as it's
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gotten popular.
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I feel like it's gotten a little bit
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depoliticized
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and people keep confusing disability
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justice with disability rights.
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When disability justice is very
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much about things
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we can do outside of the law
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and how we care for each other.
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And there's, you know, very clear
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12 principles
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and a lot of people moving into
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disability justice, I think.
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What to interpret it
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as the way that they need justice,
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which is which is understandable.
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But there's also very clear tenants
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that have been set out already.
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And so I think it's important to
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when you start
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learning about new movements, to
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learn about, you know, the history
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and the work that's already been
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done in that space.
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Not to say that like expanding
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it is bad or anything, but just like
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knowing where it's come
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from, it's helpful for determining
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where we move forward.
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And particularly like disability
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justice talks a lot about
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leadership of the most impacted.
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And this is something that I've
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been a little concerned about.
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I notice a lot of people have been
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moving into disability justice, but
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I've also noticed that a lot of the
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vocal and prominent
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people are not necessarily
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the most impacted.
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So can you.
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Share a little bit more on that?
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Because we know that's a tendency.
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Yeah, a lot of movements.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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But I'm curious for you kind of
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what what is your noticing
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and. Yeah, maybe a little bit more
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on that.
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Of course. Yeah.
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I will say that, like, I
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wouldn't even consider myself.
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I just start with me.
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I think it's easier to talk about
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yourself.
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And I am a light skinned
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East Asian.
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And I was born in Taiwan.
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And I am queer.
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I'm gender fluid.
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I'm disabled.
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I have a lot of marginalization, but
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that doesn't necessarily mean I'm
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the most impacted systemically.
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And so I'm like, should I
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be a leader in disability justice?
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You know, I'm happy to do my
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projects, but
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I feel like we should really be
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mindful and.
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Really be allowing
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black disabled people
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to take the lead in
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disability justice and to really
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move it forward.
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And particularly something
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that I know people don't necessarily
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like to talk about is there's a lot
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of colourism in the space.
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And I'm like, it's
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it's not just like
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anybody. Black Being the leader
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is good because as we know,
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a lot of mainstream media
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and a lot of society just tends to
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favor light skinned folks.
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And so I think it's important for us
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to realize, like.
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People experience different levels
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of oppression, not only
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on the racial level, but also
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just on basis of skin
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color.
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And so I'm just like when you think
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about who is the most
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impacted by systemic oppressions
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and the intersections of them?
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Like, who would that be?
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And asking yourself, Is it me?
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I'm not saying that you shouldn't
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work in the space, but
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sometimes
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I just get frustrated that
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disability justice leaders who are
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asked to speak at events are like
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the same people over and over,
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you know, and like the lighter
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skinned of the folks,
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you know? And I'm just like,
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Hello, where
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are all?
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I know there are a lot of black
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women, black, non-binary people,
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black genderqueer people who like
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have a lot of work that they've
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done. And why are
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they getting the mic,
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so to speak, you know,
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metaphorically or literally.
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Yeah. Oof.
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And it's, it's, it's a pattern
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that like, you know, the
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anti-blackness and the color is
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like, is just so
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persistent.
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It is so blatant
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and it's also so global.
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And yeah, it's, it's really
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frustrating to see the ways in which
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it manifests itself, even in
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our movements, right?
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Even in the spaces that
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want to center conversations of
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justice and transformation
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and healing.
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But I appreciate you sort of like
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grounding us in that, like, oh, this
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is also reality.
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This is also some shit we have to
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contend with, right?
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Like, you know, we don't get a pass
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because we're talking about justice.
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And I think sometimes folks kind
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of want to feel that way, like, oh,
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no, but I'm doing the good work.
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It's like, yes. And like there's
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many realities that can be true
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at once. So thank
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you for for grounding us in that.
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Ellie, can you tell me a little bit
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about I know you have like artistic
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projects. I know you have your
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organizational work.
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Like, you know, can you sort
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of like bring us to
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all these different projects and,
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you know, the ones that are sort of
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consuming your time, I can imagine.
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So my main thing
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I do most things under
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effect, which is umbrella
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grassroots
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sport, fiscally sponsored
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project
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that puts its emphasis on
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creating resources for multiple
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marginalized people and
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embodying disability justice.
00:10:22:21 00:10:23:21
And those are just
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very wordy ways of saying,
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like, I want a project
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in which I basically make no money.
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And any money we collect,
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we get to give to
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other disabled bipoc or
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multiple marginalized bipoc
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because just paying people is super
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important to me.
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I think especially in this
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country where
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black people's labor has been taken
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for granted, you know, I don't
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I don't think I think free labor
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is just overrated.
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So I think it's
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very important to just be able to
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pay folks and affect is
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the umbrella that I do it under.
00:11:06:22 00:11:08:19
So I have two projects that
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are active right now under effect
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The newer one is the Community Care
00:11:14:12 00:11:16:15
Awards, which is hopefully
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going to become an annual
00:11:18:16 00:11:21:00
award where we take nominations
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from the community
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for people local
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to the Pacific Northwest
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in the U.S.
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just because of U.S.
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nonprofit law, it's it's easier to
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keep it within the country.
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But we ask for nominations for
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people basically in
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Washington and Oregon
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who have
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been doing the work
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of community
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And we try to give
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them $500 just
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as a tiny thank you
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for and recognition
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for everything that they've been
00:11:57:13 00:11:58:12
doing.
00:11:59:03 00:12:01:11
And we've only done it one time.
00:12:02:24 00:12:04:20
I'm hoping that it can become a
00:12:04:21 00:12:06:09
yearly thing.
00:12:06:10 00:12:08:17
Mm hmm. Yes.
00:12:08:18 00:12:10:19
Love that. I love a good celebratory
00:12:10:20 00:12:11:19
acknowledgment.
00:12:13:06 00:12:14:23
And then I was also learning a
00:12:14:24 00:12:17:01
little bit about your work,
00:12:17:02 00:12:19:00
holding down disabled in
00:12:19:01 00:12:20:24
here, which just seems like
00:12:21:00 00:12:23:05
such an expansive
00:12:23:06 00:12:25:23
and diverse sort of like
00:12:25:24 00:12:27:15
storytelling project.
00:12:27:16 00:12:29:13
And I'm also a Gemini, so any
00:12:29:14 00:12:31:02
time I'm like storytelling,
00:12:31:03 00:12:33:01
anything, I'm like, Yes, say more
00:12:35:05 00:12:37:02
So tell
00:12:37:03 00:12:38:16
us a little bit about Disabled in
00:12:40:00 00:12:41:05
I think even with the title, it's
00:12:41:06 00:12:43:03
very powerful and it's very clear
00:12:43:04 00:12:44:24
and sort of unapologetic is
00:12:45:00 00:12:46:01
like this is what it is.
00:12:47:17 00:12:49:14
But also curious to hear from your
00:12:49:15 00:12:51:10
own perspective, like, you
00:12:51:11 00:12:53:10
know, what drove you
00:12:53:11 00:12:55:05
to be like, okay, we're absolutely
00:12:55:06 00:12:57:15
missing. This is a gap.
00:12:57:16 00:13:00:07
And sort of how has it been
00:13:00:08 00:13:02:12
unfolding this project?
00:13:03:14 00:13:05:12
So disabled in here is affects main
00:13:05:13 00:13:07:20
project and it's
00:13:07:21 00:13:10:04
both a free stock image collection
00:13:10:05 00:13:11:14
and an interview series
00:13:13:11 00:13:15:01
because there's just so much out
00:13:15:02 00:13:16:18
there about disabled people.
00:13:18:04 00:13:19:23
But I should emphasize the word
00:13:19:24 00:13:21:19
about it's not so much
00:13:21:20 00:13:23:24
by disabled people
00:13:24:00 00:13:25:23
and even less when you look
00:13:25:24 00:13:27:24
at things by disabled, black
00:13:28:00 00:13:29:15
and brown folks.
00:13:29:16 00:13:31:13
So I really wanted a project that
00:13:31:14 00:13:33:12
really came from
00:13:35:14 00:13:36:19
by and for us
00:13:37:21 00:13:39:24
in order to
00:13:40:00 00:13:41:19
more accurately portray
00:13:43:07 00:13:44:21
and celebrate, you know, the
00:13:44:22 00:13:46:12
realities of being
00:13:47:14 00:13:49:14
and also to sort of flip the script
00:13:49:15 00:13:51:12
into filling
00:13:51:13 00:13:54:06
up the space with stories of joy,
00:13:54:07 00:13:56:06
because so much of, like
00:13:56:07 00:13:57:21
any disability coverage is about
00:13:57:22 00:14:00:08
like, oh, trauma poured
00:14:00:09 00:14:02:04
IV over or inspiration
00:14:02:05 00:14:04:05
porn. I've overcome but
00:14:04:06 00:14:05:22
you know, I haven't overcome
00:14:05:23 00:14:08:13
anything. I'm disabled every day.
00:14:08:14 00:14:10:16
I continue to be disabled.
00:14:10:17 00:14:12:21
I probably personally
00:14:12:22 00:14:15:20
will become more disabled over time.
00:14:15:21 00:14:18:09
And that part does suck sometimes.
00:14:18:10 00:14:20:18
And other times, you know,
00:14:20:19 00:14:21:20
it's life.
00:14:21:21 00:14:22:20
You know,
00:14:23:22 00:14:25:13
everybody deals with different
00:14:25:14 00:14:26:13
things in their life.
00:14:29:01 00:14:31:01
Dealing with disability systemically
00:14:31:02 00:14:32:01
sucks a lot,
00:14:33:12 00:14:35:02
but there's just a lot of like
00:14:35:03 00:14:37:02
little moments every day that I felt
00:14:37:03 00:14:39:03
like people weren't
00:14:39:04 00:14:40:06
understanding
00:14:41:08 00:14:43:05
and I was thinking really hard
00:14:43:06 00:14:45:14
about like, how could I convey
00:14:48:03 00:14:50:10
more about, I guess, disabled
00:14:50:11 00:14:52:08
life and disabled black and
00:14:52:09 00:14:55:06
brown lives, particularly
00:14:55:07 00:14:57:12
with a focus on
00:14:57:13 00:14:59:13
collaborating with like
00:14:59:14 00:15:00:17
queer folks,
00:15:02:05 00:15:04:08
fat people, and I mean fat as a
00:15:04:09 00:15:06:12
neutral descriptor, not an insult.
00:15:08:06 00:15:10:08
And, you know, darker
00:15:10:09 00:15:13:10
skinned folks who don't necessarily
00:15:13:11 00:15:14:15
get to
00:15:16:18 00:15:18:17
be front and center.
00:15:18:18 00:15:19:20
And so I was thinking about a
00:15:19:21 00:15:22:07
project that could really celebrate
00:15:24:10 00:15:26:04
a bunch of different types of
00:15:26:05 00:15:27:23
disabled people of color.
00:15:27:24 00:15:30:21
And I came up with disabled in here.
00:15:30:22 00:15:32:13
And initially it started as just
00:15:32:14 00:15:33:23
like stock photos,
00:15:35:18 00:15:37:15
just because I think the
00:15:37:16 00:15:39:11
photos are just such strong
00:15:39:12 00:15:40:12
visual impact.
00:15:42:07 00:15:43:22
And I love the idea of being able to
00:15:43:23 00:15:45:12
capture people as they are with
00:15:45:13 00:15:47:16
their own mobility aids or,
00:15:47:17 00:15:48:16
you know.
00:15:50:07 00:15:52:05
Whatever.
00:15:52:06 00:15:54:06
Disability devices, accessibility
00:15:54:07 00:15:55:11
devices they have.
00:15:55:12 00:15:57:20
I thought I was like, Bring it all.
00:15:57:21 00:15:59:17
We want to capture you and
00:15:59:18 00:16:01:14
your full glory.
00:16:01:15 00:16:03:09
You know, and I very
00:16:03:10 00:16:05:05
much want to collaborate
00:16:05:06 00:16:07:02
with people as much as they want to
00:16:07:03 00:16:09:22
collaborate in terms of like
00:16:09:23 00:16:11:25
when we
00:16:11:26 00:16:14:09
work with different models,
00:16:14:10 00:16:16:03
so to speak, because folks aren't
00:16:16:04 00:16:17:22
professional models are very much
00:16:17:23 00:16:19:14
like, Hey, is there anything that
00:16:19:15 00:16:21:11
you particularly want to shoot?
00:16:21:12 00:16:22:16
Is there something that you want to
00:16:22:17 00:16:23:10
get across?
00:16:23:11 00:16:24:16
Like, what do you do?
00:16:24:17 00:16:25:19
What do you want these pictures to
00:16:26:26 00:16:28:12
And sometimes people have a lot they
00:16:28:13 00:16:29:19
want to contribute and sometimes
00:16:29:20 00:16:31:11
they have less.
00:16:31:12 00:16:33:03
And, you know, I want to make it
00:16:33:04 00:16:34:17
flexible so that, like, I'm not
00:16:34:18 00:16:36:10
asking you for a whole bunch of we
00:16:36:11 00:16:38:03
do pay these folks so it's not free
00:16:38:04 00:16:40:13
work. But I don't want to
00:16:40:14 00:16:42:14
like burden people if
00:16:42:15 00:16:43:20
they don't want to think about that
00:16:43:21 00:16:45:06
kind of thing. But I also want to
00:16:45:07 00:16:46:14
give them the freedom to really
00:16:46:15 00:16:47:25
express themselves further.
00:16:50:15 00:16:52:12
So having
00:16:52:13 00:16:53:12
people.
00:16:54:13 00:16:55:19
Being in charge of their own
00:16:55:20 00:16:57:12
narratives, I think is just so
00:16:57:13 00:16:58:13
powerful.
00:17:00:05 00:17:01:21
Oh, absolutely.
00:17:01:22 00:17:04:12
And it's really beautiful to hear
00:17:04:13 00:17:06:03
how even like sort of behind the
00:17:06:04 00:17:07:24
scenes, like, you know, beyond
00:17:07:25 00:17:10:09
the image that the world sees,
00:17:10:10 00:17:12:13
it's just really collaborative
00:17:12:14 00:17:15:10
and really like agency affirming
00:17:15:11 00:17:17:14
process. Like that's just really a
00:17:17:15 00:17:19:12
beautiful reminder of how,
00:17:19:13 00:17:20:20
you know, how it should be, right?
00:17:20:21 00:17:22:19
Like what actually feels good.
00:17:22:20 00:17:24:15
And, you know, hearing you sort
00:17:24:16 00:17:26:14
of reflect
00:17:26:15 00:17:28:12
through this process, it's
00:17:28:13 00:17:30:18
been making me think a lot more.
00:17:30:19 00:17:33:06
And I'm curious what your opinion is
00:17:33:07 00:17:35:08
of like how there is increasing
00:17:35:09 00:17:37:18
visibility of disabled
00:17:37:19 00:17:40:02
folks in sort of like,
00:17:40:03 00:17:42:09
you know, major brands campaigns.
00:17:42:10 00:17:43:09
Right.
00:17:43:19 00:17:46:12
Yet like Savage Fenty or,
00:17:46:13 00:17:48:04
you know, all these that are Nike,
00:17:48:05 00:17:49:21
like all these different folks.
00:17:49:22 00:17:51:07
And we know that especially after
00:17:51:08 00:17:53:03
2020, a
00:17:53:04 00:17:54:18
lot of brands and marketing groups
00:17:54:19 00:17:56:10
have, you know, caught on to the
00:17:56:11 00:17:58:06
fact that like, oh, all of
00:17:58:07 00:18:00:01
these groups exist and they're here,
00:18:00:02 00:18:01:06
like, to your point, disabled in
00:18:02:03 00:18:04:02
And for them,
00:18:04:03 00:18:05:18
you know, it seems like a great
00:18:05:19 00:18:07:15
marketing strategy.
00:18:07:16 00:18:09:16
But I also there's something
00:18:09:17 00:18:11:11
in my body that responds so
00:18:11:12 00:18:13:22
warmly when I do see
00:18:13:23 00:18:15:17
fat folks, when I see more black and
00:18:15:18 00:18:17:10
brown bodies, when I see disabled
00:18:17:11 00:18:19:12
folks, when I see queer folks
00:18:19:13 00:18:21:04
like in these campaigns.
00:18:21:05 00:18:22:12
And I also want to like challenge
00:18:22:13 00:18:24:02
myself, like, okay, what are the
00:18:24:03 00:18:25:24
limits of representation?
00:18:25:25 00:18:27:23
And like, can we allow ourselves
00:18:27:24 00:18:29:15
to just be like, oh, this is iconic?
00:18:29:16 00:18:31:14
Like, yes, but I'm curious
00:18:31:15 00:18:33:10
kind of like how you're
00:18:33:11 00:18:35:11
making sense of this
00:18:35:12 00:18:38:02
sort of increasing visibility
00:18:38:03 00:18:39:03
for disabled folks.
00:18:40:07 00:18:42:02
I'm not
00:18:42:03 00:18:43:13
going to be unhappy with more
00:18:43:14 00:18:45:13
visibility, but I think it is
00:18:45:14 00:18:47:13
an important question to ask,
00:18:47:14 00:18:49:11
like who is
00:18:49:12 00:18:51:08
in charge of these images?
00:18:51:09 00:18:53:20
Who is driving the perspective?
00:18:53:21 00:18:55:07
You know, who are we actually
00:18:55:08 00:18:57:01
centering?
00:18:57:02 00:18:59:08
Just because someone
00:18:59:09 00:19:01:03
is part of a campaign, does this
00:19:01:04 00:19:02:14
mean this campaign actually
00:19:02:15 00:19:04:24
accurately reflects them?
00:19:05:00 00:19:06:11
You know, like.
00:19:07:24 00:19:10:06
And ultimately, who is the audience,
00:19:11:05 00:19:12:18
Because when big brands do it, you
00:19:12:19 00:19:14:24
know, they are not actually
00:19:15:00 00:19:17:09
necessarily marketing to
00:19:17:10 00:19:18:09
disabled people.
00:19:18:10 00:19:20:14
I find that a lot of times disabled
00:19:20:15 00:19:22:22
marketing is actually marketed at
00:19:22:23 00:19:24:13
non-disabled people because it's
00:19:24:14 00:19:26:09
more like, look how good we
00:19:26:10 00:19:27:25
are. We are a great company.
00:19:28:00 00:19:29:21
Therefore, give us your money.
00:19:29:22 00:19:32:01
Mm hmm.
00:19:33:03 00:19:35:00
Yeah. It's like it sort
00:19:35:01 00:19:37:05
of reinforces the feel good
00:19:37:06 00:19:39:02
for mostly, like, non marginalized
00:19:39:03 00:19:39:22
people.
00:19:40:22 00:19:42:08
Like, I can imagine a lot of white
00:19:42:09 00:19:43:13
folks being like, oh, yeah.
00:19:43:14 00:19:45:08
Like, this brand is progressive,
00:19:45:09 00:19:47:10
cause, like, look at this campaign.
00:19:47:11 00:19:49:08
And I think those are one of the one
00:19:49:09 00:19:51:11
of those several sort of concerns
00:19:51:12 00:19:53:14
I have with like, hmm,
00:19:53:15 00:19:55:07
what happens if we get overly
00:19:55:08 00:19:57:14
satisfied with just representation?
00:19:59:04 00:20:00:20
And I really appreciate what you're
00:20:00:21 00:20:02:06
bringing up around like.
00:20:02:07 00:20:04:03
Yeah. Who, what are the intentions
00:20:04:04 00:20:06:02
of this? And also even like behind
00:20:06:03 00:20:07:21
the scenes, like how much creative
00:20:07:22 00:20:09:21
direction and narrative control
00:20:09:22 00:20:11:15
do these individual folks hold?
00:20:12:24 00:20:14:08
Which is, I think is a really,
00:20:14:09 00:20:15:17
really important question
00:20:17:04 00:20:18:09
because yeah, I think most of the
00:20:18:10 00:20:19:22
times we know, even if someone's,
00:20:19:23 00:20:21:24
like, modeling something, it's like
00:20:22:00 00:20:23:06
you are.
00:20:23:07 00:20:24:11
Yeah. Like, there's so many things
00:20:24:12 00:20:26:05
have already been set up for you and
00:20:26:06 00:20:27:09
you're kind of there, like, just to
00:20:27:10 00:20:29:09
be the face or the body
00:20:29:10 00:20:32:01
or whatever, like, you know.
00:20:32:02 00:20:33:15
Who are you even allowed to say?
00:20:33:16 00:20:35:07
No. Like if you disagree with
00:20:35:08 00:20:36:21
something.
00:20:36:22 00:20:38:22
If you showed up at Rihanna's,
00:20:38:23 00:20:40:14
you know, Fenty shoot.
00:20:40:15 00:20:42:03
Would you ever feel comfortable
00:20:42:04 00:20:43:25
enough to be like, I'm sorry,
00:20:44:00 00:20:45:24
I don't want to do this?
00:20:47:08 00:20:48:15
And this is just something I want to
00:20:48:16 00:20:50:13
encourage is like encourage giving
00:20:50:14 00:20:52:08
people the option and the
00:20:52:09 00:20:54:04
opportunity to say no to you.
00:20:55:09 00:20:56:23
You know, cultivate
00:20:59:00 00:21:01:07
your ability to hear
00:21:01:08 00:21:02:20
and accept a no
00:21:06:00 00:21:07:22
I'm I'm so glad you mentioned that,
00:21:07:23 00:21:09:20
because I think
00:21:09:21 00:21:11:24
there's been times where I
00:21:12:00 00:21:13:21
have even like even
00:21:13:22 00:21:15:13
myself, I haven't felt the most
00:21:15:14 00:21:17:11
empowered and in my agency to do
00:21:18:04 00:21:18:11
Mm hmm.
00:21:18:12 00:21:19:19
You know, I did.
00:21:19:20 00:21:21:01
It's also complicated because they
00:21:21:02 00:21:22:10
make so many of these brands, make
00:21:22:11 00:21:24:07
you sign NDAs and stuff like as
00:21:24:08 00:21:26:07
legal protections, even across
00:21:26:08 00:21:27:07
these things, and
00:21:28:14 00:21:30:17
sort of reinforcing secrecy,
00:21:30:18 00:21:31:15
you know?
00:21:31:16 00:21:33:05
Right. You know, like even now, I'm
00:21:33:06 00:21:34:19
like, I can't I don't think I can
00:21:34:20 00:21:36:15
say what TV show or
00:21:36:16 00:21:37:15
what what this was for.
00:21:37:16 00:21:39:11
But yeah,
00:21:39:12 00:21:41:11
some time ago, maybe sometime
00:21:41:12 00:21:43:13
last year, I was doing
00:21:43:14 00:21:45:09
like an episode, you know, on
00:21:45:10 00:21:47:06
like, like a, a new TV
00:21:47:07 00:21:49:05
show and they made
00:21:49:06 00:21:50:24
us like play this game that was like
00:21:51:00 00:21:52:14
really uncomfortable and it was kind
00:21:52:15 00:21:54:05
of like problematic statements and
00:21:54:06 00:21:56:01
was kind of like responding
00:21:56:02 00:21:56:23
like, problematic.
00:21:56:24 00:21:57:23
Tweets.
00:21:57:24 00:21:59:19
And us responding,
00:21:59:20 00:22:01:15
and it was like it was
00:22:01:16 00:22:02:20
so uncomfortable.
00:22:04:04 00:22:05:21
It was just really uncomfortable.
00:22:05:22 00:22:07:21
And, you know, it
00:22:07:22 00:22:10:03
was bizarre because, you know,
00:22:10:04 00:22:12:04
there's like so many people on set.
00:22:12:05 00:22:13:24
There's like 15, 20 people
00:22:13:25 00:22:15:14
behind like behind that camera.
00:22:15:15 00:22:16:24
You have lights on you.
00:22:17:00 00:22:18:16
And I can personally say in that
00:22:18:17 00:22:20:12
moment, I wasn't necessarily I
00:22:20:13 00:22:22:18
knew in my body I could feel
00:22:22:19 00:22:24:07
like automatically speaking my body
00:22:24:08 00:22:26:25
was like, this is not okay.
00:22:27:00 00:22:28:14
You know, like you are now like part
00:22:28:15 00:22:30:07
of this almost like problematic
00:22:30:08 00:22:31:07
jeopardy.
00:22:32:22 00:22:33:24
And I was in them.
00:22:34:00 00:22:35:18
I didn't really know how to navigate
00:22:35:19 00:22:38:02
that situation until
00:22:38:03 00:22:39:13
we sort of asked the producers,
00:22:39:14 00:22:42:09
like, Can we pause this?
00:22:42:10 00:22:43:18
We're like, That was really weird.
00:22:43:19 00:22:45:18
Like, that doesn't feel good.
00:22:45:19 00:22:47:23
Like, I don't want to partake
00:22:47:24 00:22:49:02
in this. And it was kind of, you
00:22:49:03 00:22:50:23
know, it was a tension.
00:22:50:24 00:22:52:24
So, you know, even just hearing
00:22:52:25 00:22:54:24
you, Ali, like ask
00:22:55:00 00:22:56:11
these questions like point, this is
00:22:56:12 00:22:57:09
like, oh, shit. Like, you're
00:22:57:10 00:22:58:10
bringing up some stuff for me.
00:22:58:11 00:23:00:06
I'm like, oh, you know,
00:23:00:07 00:23:01:20
it's like sometimes we don't feel
00:23:01:21 00:23:02:25
like we're in our agency to ask
00:23:03:00 00:23:04:06
that. And I can only imagine, you
00:23:04:07 00:23:06:13
know, this was like a, an emerging
00:23:07:08 00:23:08:23
I cannot imagine doing that in a
00:23:08:24 00:23:11:06
major brand set,
00:23:11:07 00:23:12:13
you know, and I think we're sort of
00:23:12:14 00:23:14:10
told to just be grateful
00:23:14:11 00:23:16:04
that, like, we're the ones that, you
00:23:16:05 00:23:17:18
know, the select few that made it
00:23:17:19 00:23:19:18
into these spaces.
00:23:19:19 00:23:21:14
Yeah. And you know, some of that
00:23:21:15 00:23:23:16
fear and tension is totally legit
00:23:23:17 00:23:25:18
because there are actual industry
00:23:25:19 00:23:27:16
consequences.
00:23:27:17 00:23:29:07
A lot of the times if you try to
00:23:29:08 00:23:31:08
assert your your rights at your
00:23:31:09 00:23:32:08
agency.
00:23:33:14 00:23:35:09
And so when
00:23:35:10 00:23:37:06
I work, I try to be very mindful
00:23:37:07 00:23:39:07
of like different power dynamics
00:23:39:08 00:23:40:07
and to
00:23:41:09 00:23:43:09
never surprise people with things
00:23:43:10 00:23:44:13
that are happening as much as
00:23:44:14 00:23:45:12
possible.
00:23:45:13 00:23:47:11
Obviously, you can't like
00:23:47:12 00:23:48:25
I'm such a control freak.
00:23:48:26 00:23:50:24
I love I love being
00:23:51:00 00:23:52:06
able to plan things.
00:23:52:07 00:23:53:20
But I also know that, you know,
00:23:53:21 00:23:55:16
things happen, things
00:23:55:17 00:23:57:13
I think you you can't literally
00:23:57:14 00:23:59:11
plan out your whole life,
00:23:59:12 00:24:00:23
you know.
00:24:00:24 00:24:02:22
But that's why I tried to build
00:24:02:23 00:24:04:19
in any time I
00:24:04:20 00:24:05:23
put anything together.
00:24:05:24 00:24:07:11
There's like a lot of breaks built
00:24:07:12 00:24:09:07
in, a lot of check ins just
00:24:09:08 00:24:11:17
to be like, How are you feeling?
00:24:11:18 00:24:13:15
Is this good?
00:24:13:16 00:24:14:19
Did you want to stop?
00:24:14:20 00:24:15:20
Are you okay?
00:24:16:20 00:24:17:20
And I just like.
00:24:18:23 00:24:20:20
I think it also helps when you just
00:24:22:19 00:24:24:18
Tell people, you know,
00:24:24:19 00:24:27:05
I'm here for you and ultimately,
00:24:27:06 00:24:29:05
like is
00:24:29:06 00:24:31:02
disabled in here a good project if
00:24:31:03 00:24:32:20
it if our participants don't feel
00:24:32:21 00:24:34:13
good when they're part of it, you
00:24:34:14 00:24:36:14
know, like I
00:24:36:15 00:24:37:19
think there's all these parts of
00:24:37:20 00:24:39:14
like what makes a project good
00:24:39:15 00:24:40:15
and powerful
00:24:41:22 00:24:43:13
and what makes it.
00:24:45:08 00:24:46:09
Successful
00:24:47:15 00:24:49:17
publicly versus like successful
00:24:49:18 00:24:50:22
to you as a person.
00:24:50:23 00:24:53:02
And to me, my projects are
00:24:53:03 00:24:54:24
only as successful
00:24:55:00 00:24:57:04
as the people who
00:24:57:05 00:24:59:04
who participate in
00:24:59:05 00:25:01:01
it and, you know, get to see it,
00:25:01:02 00:25:02:08
you know. So yeah.
00:25:04:15 00:25:06:12
Like from,
00:25:06:13 00:25:08:04
I don't know, certain standards
00:25:08:05 00:25:09:18
people might say disabled and hear
00:25:09:19 00:25:11:14
successful cause like, you know,
00:25:11:15 00:25:13:12
the ADA uses are images on
00:25:13:13 00:25:15:18
their website, their new website
00:25:15:19 00:25:17:16
and like the BBC has used us
00:25:17:17 00:25:19:08
and disability rights organizations
00:25:19:09 00:25:21:03
use us and like to me
00:25:21:04 00:25:23:08
I'm like the most successful
00:25:23:09 00:25:24:24
parts of that. Like I got to pay
00:25:25:00 00:25:26:23
people and I got
00:25:26:24 00:25:28:19
to work with so
00:25:28:20 00:25:30:24
many disabled illustrators that
00:25:32:04 00:25:34:02
were so surprised
00:25:34:03 00:25:35:10
when they're like, Can I do this?
00:25:35:11 00:25:36:18
And I'm like, Why can't you?
00:25:37:20 00:25:39:16
What? Why can't you do this
00:25:39:17 00:25:40:16
thing?
00:25:41:14 00:25:43:07
I just try to show up and be
00:25:43:08 00:25:44:12
supportive.
00:25:44:13 00:25:46:08
I'm not saying I'm perfect or
00:25:46:09 00:25:48:08
I'm definitely
00:25:48:09 00:25:50:23
a very flawed human being,
00:25:50:24 00:25:52:22
but I just I very much want to be
00:25:52:23 00:25:54:14
mindful that we're all humans and
00:25:55:24 00:25:58:01
To me, respect means
00:25:58:02 00:25:59:16
like treating each other as fellow
00:25:59:17 00:26:01:13
humans with care.
00:26:02:14 00:26:03:18
It's funny because it's like
00:26:05:09 00:26:08:10
such a simple task.
00:26:08:11 00:26:10:10
But I know in this in
00:26:10:11 00:26:12:02
this economy and the society, it
00:26:12:03 00:26:14:17
feels it feels like such a task
00:26:14:18 00:26:16:04
to ask people, like, can you just
00:26:16:05 00:26:17:21
treat me with the respect and like
00:26:17:22 00:26:19:20
mutuality and reciprocity?
00:26:21:22 00:26:24:10
You know, and that makes me think
00:26:24:11 00:26:25:22
a little bit about and we were
00:26:25:23 00:26:27:21
chatting a tiny bit about this
00:26:27:22 00:26:30:09
before we started recording, but
00:26:30:10 00:26:32:09
the sort of like mainstream ploy
00:26:32:10 00:26:35:09
of like return to normal,
00:26:35:10 00:26:36:17
we are post-pandemic.
00:26:36:18 00:26:38:21
Y'all like war is over.
00:26:38:22 00:26:39:22
Get over it.
00:26:41:02 00:26:42:21
How are you making sense of this?
00:26:42:22 00:26:44:08
Because everybody I know is
00:26:44:09 00:26:45:08
exhausted,
00:26:46:12 00:26:48:10
deeply anxious and
00:26:48:11 00:26:50:06
feels very far from quote
00:26:50:07 00:26:51:10
unquote, things are normal.
00:26:51:11 00:26:53:08
But, yeah, how are you making
00:26:53:09 00:26:54:12
sense of this?
00:26:54:13 00:26:56:07
BUSH It's just a
00:26:56:08 00:26:58:10
it feels like a
00:26:58:11 00:27:00:07
nationwide and maybe even
00:27:00:08 00:27:02:13
international campaign
00:27:02:14 00:27:04:11
of gaslighting, really,
00:27:04:12 00:27:06:03
where everyone's buying into this
00:27:06:04 00:27:07:22
fictional version of reality.
00:27:07:23 00:27:09:09
First of all, the pandemic is still
00:27:09:10 00:27:11:01
going. We constantly have new
00:27:11:02 00:27:12:10
variants develop.
00:27:12:11 00:27:13:19
So I'm confused.
00:27:13:20 00:27:15:25
What do you mean by post?
00:27:17:23 00:27:19:16
Is your definition of post that you
00:27:19:17 00:27:20:20
just don't want to deal with it
00:27:20:21 00:27:21:24
anymore?
00:27:22:00 00:27:23:16
Because that's not typically what
00:27:23:17 00:27:25:12
post-pandemic means.
00:27:26:23 00:27:28:20
So you're like, okay, this is
00:27:28:21 00:27:30:03
this is an interesting form of
00:27:30:04 00:27:31:04
wishful thinking.
00:27:33:11 00:27:35:07
And it's just also weird
00:27:35:08 00:27:37:00
where people keep wanting to return
00:27:37:01 00:27:38:16
to normal and you're just like,
00:27:41:13 00:27:44:00
There's kind of no more normal,
00:27:44:01 00:27:46:01
like the pandemic is here.
00:27:46:02 00:27:47:24
People have died.
00:27:48:00 00:27:49:18
It's kind of rude for you to tell
00:27:49:19 00:27:51:11
me. Return to normal.
00:27:52:21 00:27:54:19
And furthermore, like, what is
00:27:54:20 00:27:56:17
your definition of normal?
00:27:56:18 00:27:57:20
Was it ever good?
00:27:57:21 00:27:58:21
Like, who was normal?
00:27:58:22 00:27:59:25
Good for.
00:28:00:00 00:28:01:03
Yeah, obviously good for
00:28:01:04 00:28:02:17
corporations, I guess, because, you
00:28:02:18 00:28:04:19
know, everybody gets to
00:28:06:10 00:28:08:09
really work super, super
00:28:08:10 00:28:10:12
hard to be a productive,
00:28:10:13 00:28:12:07
functional human in society
00:28:12:08 00:28:14:01
and make more money for other
00:28:14:02 00:28:16:04
people, not necessarily yourself,
00:28:16:05 00:28:17:20
but you get to make money for the
00:28:17:21 00:28:20:11
corporations and for the economy.
00:28:22:10 00:28:24:17
you know, too and you
00:28:24:18 00:28:26:01
for all that, I guess you get the
00:28:26:02 00:28:28:04
benefit of covering some bills,
00:28:28:05 00:28:31:07
hurray, covering some bills
00:28:31:08 00:28:33:16
and filling in the gaps that
00:28:33:17 00:28:36:02
I personally feel like
00:28:36:03 00:28:37:17
the government should be caring for
00:28:40:17 00:28:41:20
I mean, it's so wild.
00:28:41:21 00:28:43:18
Like, I I'm going to go
00:28:43:19 00:28:45:10
get tested later.
00:28:45:11 00:28:47:02
And my partner was sort of asking me
00:28:47:03 00:28:48:18
like, okay, what do you like?
00:28:48:19 00:28:50:13
Do you think that wants to open the
00:28:50:14 00:28:51:21
testing site?
00:28:51:22 00:28:52:24
Because, you know, everyone's
00:28:52:25 00:28:55:12
reading about how,
00:28:55:13 00:28:57:01
you know, the government is choosing
00:28:57:02 00:28:59:00
to sort of clock out, clock out
00:28:59:01 00:29:01:18
the funding in significant ways.
00:29:01:19 00:29:03:09
And here in Florida, I mean, I live
00:29:03:10 00:29:05:03
in Florida, you know, has been such
00:29:05:04 00:29:07:01
a you know, such
00:29:07:02 00:29:09:01
a place of topic and
00:29:09:02 00:29:10:23
debate in this country during this
00:29:10:24 00:29:12:16
whole pandemic, during this past two
00:29:12:17 00:29:13:10
years.
00:29:13:11 00:29:15:06
And yeah, I was like,
00:29:15:07 00:29:16:02
oh, wait, good question.
00:29:16:03 00:29:17:11
Yeah, I have to actually check.
00:29:17:12 00:29:19:05
And like, that made me that got me
00:29:19:06 00:29:21:04
so upset, honestly, that
00:29:21:05 00:29:22:18
I'm like, Oh yeah, these people just
00:29:22:19 00:29:23:25
think like, just kidding.
00:29:24:00 00:29:25:05
It's cool.
00:29:25:06 00:29:26:14
Close the testing sites.
00:29:26:15 00:29:28:12
We're cutting the funding.
00:29:28:13 00:29:30:10
It's I think, to your point,
00:29:32:02 00:29:33:22
And it's just really dehumanizing.
00:29:33:23 00:29:36:04
And it is gaslighting because,
00:29:36:05 00:29:37:15
you know, I was going to
00:29:38:19 00:29:41:05
like host the friend who
00:29:41:06 00:29:43:17
has moved away and is here in Miami
00:29:43:18 00:29:45:15
and they were exposed
00:29:45:16 00:29:47:13
to COVID. And I'm like, okay,
00:29:47:14 00:29:49:03
yeah. Like we're very much so in
00:29:49:04 00:29:50:20
this, you know, like I work with
00:29:50:21 00:29:52:18
young people in
00:29:52:19 00:29:54:01
a place where there's no mask
00:29:54:02 00:29:55:12
mandate in schools, right?
00:29:55:13 00:29:58:15
So you're in classrooms with like 35
00:29:58:16 00:30:00:14
other people, if not more,
00:30:00:15 00:30:01:24
with no mask mandate, right?
00:30:02:00 00:30:03:20
So it's like, again, falls
00:30:03:21 00:30:05:11
on the quote unquote, individual
00:30:05:12 00:30:07:14
responsibility on people
00:30:07:15 00:30:09:13
to a firm
00:30:10:20 00:30:11:23
And I think that's something that's
00:30:11:24 00:30:13:21
been really hurtful
00:30:13:22 00:30:16:05
to see unfold that
00:30:16:06 00:30:18:16
this government has and corporations
00:30:18:17 00:30:20:03
and all the people in power have
00:30:20:04 00:30:21:25
used the pandemic
00:30:21:26 00:30:24:01
to reinforce
00:30:24:02 00:30:26:01
hyper individualistic ideas
00:30:26:02 00:30:27:06
of care.
00:30:27:07 00:30:28:15
And it's like, wow.
00:30:28:16 00:30:29:10
Y'all, y'all.
00:30:29:11 00:30:31:10
Would use a pandemic to, like, serve
00:30:31:11 00:30:33:07
yourselves in that way.
00:30:35:02 00:30:35:25
But yeah, I'm curious for you,
00:30:36:00 00:30:37:09
Ellie. Like, how are you?
00:30:37:10 00:30:38:10
How have you even been thinking
00:30:38:11 00:30:40:13
about care a little bit differently
00:30:41:14 00:30:43:06
through the pandemic, you know?
00:30:44:23 00:30:46:18
If I can return to what you were
00:30:46:19 00:30:48:14
just saying about
00:30:48:15 00:30:50:19
the emphasis on individualism, too,
00:30:50:20 00:30:52:04
I also think that's funny just
00:30:52:05 00:30:54:04
because, like we heard
00:30:54:05 00:30:56:09
that easyJet, the airline
00:30:56:10 00:30:58:09
lifted the no mask mandate and oh,
00:30:58:10 00:31:00:05
no, they thought this would
00:31:00:06 00:31:01:16
benefit them to push it on to
00:31:01:17 00:31:02:15
individual folks.
00:31:02:16 00:31:04:03
But they found out that it meant
00:31:04:04 00:31:05:25
their staff just had to
00:31:06:00 00:31:07:12
call out because so many of them
00:31:07:13 00:31:09:11
were down with COVID
00:31:09:12 00:31:10:23
that they had to cancel flights.
00:31:10:24 00:31:12:08
So I'm like. It doesn't even make
00:31:12:09 00:31:15:10
sense from a money standpoint.
00:31:15:11 00:31:18:05
I'm confused because
00:31:18:06 00:31:20:05
I mean, I'm not confused because
00:31:20:06 00:31:22:11
this is sort of what I expect, but
00:31:22:12 00:31:24:11
also like it does, it makes
00:31:24:12 00:31:26:13
sense monetarily in
00:31:26:14 00:31:28:15
the longer term.
00:31:28:16 00:31:30:15
So what kind of like really limited
00:31:30:16 00:31:32:17
short term thinking is going
00:31:32:18 00:31:34:16
on where you think if you just
00:31:34:17 00:31:36:16
push on to individuals, your company
00:31:36:17 00:31:38:08
is made up of individuals.
00:31:39:23 00:31:41:08
What do you think is going to happen
00:31:41:09 00:31:43:01
when so many people just get sick?
00:31:43:02 00:31:45:02
And before
00:31:45:03 00:31:46:06
we started recording, you were
00:31:46:07 00:31:48:01
talking about this
00:31:48:02 00:31:50:23
being a mass disabling event.
00:31:50:24 00:31:52:21
And I just think that's very much
00:31:52:22 00:31:54:22
true. We just don't know much about
00:31:54:23 00:31:56:21
Long-Covid as a chronic illness.
00:31:58:10 00:31:59:18
And, you know.
00:32:00:20 00:32:02:10
Patients are constantly not being
00:32:02:11 00:32:04:07
believed. And there's also
00:32:04:08 00:32:06:01
all this emphasis in media about
00:32:06:02 00:32:08:10
so-called mild COVID.
00:32:08:11 00:32:09:24
And people get confused about what
00:32:10:00 00:32:11:16
that means because they think mild.
00:32:11:17 00:32:13:04
COVID means mild.
00:32:13:05 00:32:15:04
Like an
00:32:15:05 00:32:17:01
obvious jump to go to.
00:32:17:02 00:32:18:19
But like mild, COVID just means you
00:32:18:20 00:32:20:02
don't end up in the hospital.
00:32:20:03 00:32:21:22
You know, it doesn't actually mean
00:32:21:23 00:32:23:15
that you. It doesn't even mean that
00:32:23:16 00:32:25:13
you can recover 100% from
00:32:25:14 00:32:27:06
COVID, because a lot of people with
00:32:27:07 00:32:28:20
so-called mild COVID end up with
00:32:28:21 00:32:31:01
long COVID and are like, Oh, no,
00:32:31:02 00:32:32:20
I can't climb stairs anymore.
00:32:32:21 00:32:34:22
I can't breathe properly
00:32:34:23 00:32:36:06
when I try to do anything.
00:32:38:12 00:32:39:13
And it's just
00:32:41:01 00:32:42:20
I, I'm like, what is the word I'm
00:32:42:21 00:32:44:06
looking for? I don't know.
00:32:44:07 00:32:45:21
I just maybe instead of words, I'm
00:32:45:22 00:32:47:21
just going to do an exhausted sigh
00:32:49:11 00:32:50:11
just a little.
00:32:56:19 00:32:57:24
Sorry. Can you remind me your
00:32:58:00 00:33:00:02
question about care
00:33:00:03 00:33:00:14
that you are.
00:33:00:15 00:33:01:19
Like being known like that?
00:33:01:20 00:33:03:05
So literally, I'm like, that's why
00:33:03:06 00:33:04:01
I'm also at.
00:33:06:03 00:33:08:02
I'm just like, it's
00:33:08:03 00:33:09:16
yes. It's so upsetting in so many
00:33:09:17 00:33:12:08
levels. Affirming the exhausted
00:33:12:09 00:33:14:04
sigh. I feel like I do those
00:33:14:05 00:33:16:06
every other hour these
00:33:17:08 00:33:19:07
And I think on the flip
00:33:19:08 00:33:21:04
side, you know, as
00:33:21:05 00:33:22:12
we've all been navigating this
00:33:22:13 00:33:24:11
pandemic and what it means for our
00:33:24:12 00:33:25:23
health, our bodies and our
00:33:25:24 00:33:27:18
communities and our networks of
00:33:27:19 00:33:29:16
support and care,
00:33:29:17 00:33:31:02
you know, in some ways I think of
00:33:31:03 00:33:33:19
like early pandemic, where
00:33:33:20 00:33:35:24
people were sharing on like TikTok
00:33:36:00 00:33:37:18
and social media, like how to do
00:33:37:19 00:33:39:24
like your fire tonics
00:33:40:00 00:33:41:19
and like your ginger this and your
00:33:41:20 00:33:42:19
lemon water that.
00:33:42:20 00:33:44:17
And like everyone was just sort of
00:33:44:18 00:33:46:15
like trying to distribute as much
00:33:46:16 00:33:48:14
of an information as a, as a way
00:33:48:15 00:33:50:03
of like support.
00:33:50:04 00:33:52:02
And I know even like in my
00:33:52:03 00:33:53:20
community, like books were just like
00:33:53:21 00:33:55:17
preparing tea bundles for each
00:33:55:18 00:33:57:05
other and like, preparing little
00:33:57:06 00:33:59:15
care packages to distribute around
00:34:00:22 00:34:02:18
I think some of that has
00:34:02:19 00:34:03:19
really like
00:34:04:23 00:34:06:17
slowed it down as like the
00:34:06:18 00:34:08:01
mainstream has continued to push
00:34:08:02 00:34:10:14
like, oh, there's no need for that
00:34:10:15 00:34:11:23
in some ways.
00:34:11:24 00:34:13:01
And I think it brings me to this
00:34:13:02 00:34:14:14
question that I had mentioned to
00:34:14:15 00:34:16:17
you. Like, you know, how
00:34:16:18 00:34:18:21
have you sort of seen,
00:34:18:22 00:34:20:24
you know, support or really
00:34:21:00 00:34:22:20
not just support systems, but like
00:34:22:21 00:34:25:07
care networks sort of unfold
00:34:25:08 00:34:26:23
in this in this pandemic.
00:34:28:07 00:34:29:21
Yeah, definitely.
00:34:29:22 00:34:31:19
When it started, there were so
00:34:31:20 00:34:34:19
many people jumping into mutual aid
00:34:34:20 00:34:36:17
with so much enthusiasm
00:34:36:18 00:34:37:22
and so much energy
00:34:38:22 00:34:40:19
that I
00:34:40:20 00:34:41:20
don't want to.
00:34:43:14 00:34:45:22
I was like, How do I phrase this
00:34:45:23 00:34:47:10
in the kindest way?
00:34:47:11 00:34:49:04
Like it was clear that people would
00:34:49:05 00:34:50:04
burn out.
00:34:51:11 00:34:53:09
Unfortunately, if
00:34:53:10 00:34:55:06
you are new to a space
00:34:55:07 00:34:57:24
and you jump in like 200%,
00:34:58:00 00:34:59:21
it's just not sustainable,
00:34:59:22 00:35:01:07
you know? And it's not a judgment on
00:35:01:08 00:35:03:02
anybody. It's just literally not
00:35:03:03 00:35:04:15
sustainable for anyone.
00:35:06:19 00:35:08:15
So I haven't
00:35:08:16 00:35:10:16
been seeing very much
00:35:10:17 00:35:13:06
in the space of, like,
00:35:13:07 00:35:14:09
mutual aid.
00:35:16:20 00:35:19:00
At least locally for me.
00:35:19:01 00:35:20:20
And also, as another caveat, I don't
00:35:20:21 00:35:22:05
get out much.
00:35:22:06 00:35:24:02
I'm mostly at home these
00:35:24:03 00:35:26:08
days, and I
00:35:26:09 00:35:28:11
have seen like one
00:35:28:12 00:35:30:07
or two people in person
00:35:31:13 00:35:33:10
phone wise since the pandemic.
00:35:33:11 00:35:35:12
Just because I'm high risk COVID
00:35:35:13 00:35:37:19
and, you know, sometimes
00:35:37:20 00:35:39:13
I'm like, not totally sure I want to
00:35:39:14 00:35:41:15
be living, but but
00:35:41:16 00:35:43:12
I also just don't this is not really
00:35:43:13 00:35:45:00
want to how I want to go out either.
00:35:45:01 00:35:46:12
I don't want to go out from COVID.
00:35:46:13 00:35:47:25
So I've just been try to be as
00:35:47:26 00:35:49:01
careful as possible.
00:35:49:02 00:35:51:06
But from what I've seen, definitely
00:35:51:07 00:35:53:01
mutual aid efforts have gone down.
00:35:54:17 00:35:57:03
But where I've seen efforts continue
00:35:57:04 00:35:59:04
is in a lot of grassroots
00:35:59:05 00:36:01:02
works from from black folks
00:36:01:03 00:36:02:03
in particular
00:36:03:14 00:36:04:20
who have been showing up
00:36:04:21 00:36:06:12
pre-pandemic and know how to
00:36:06:13 00:36:07:21
continue showing up because they
00:36:07:22 00:36:09:21
know that it is a long
00:36:09:22 00:36:11:24
term need of the community.
00:36:12:00 00:36:13:19
You know, and I love that.
00:36:13:20 00:36:15:12
I love seeing collective care,
00:36:15:13 00:36:17:06
interdependence.
00:36:17:07 00:36:19:02
And I think black folks just
00:36:19:03 00:36:20:10
have a long history
00:36:21:12 00:36:23:12
of of doing that for each other.
00:36:25:03 00:36:26:17
Locally. There's some groups that
00:36:26:18 00:36:28:13
clearly have experience in this area
00:36:28:14 00:36:30:10
and know how to pace so that
00:36:30:11 00:36:32:05
you don't necessarily just burn out
00:36:32:06 00:36:33:11
right away.
00:36:33:12 00:36:34:19
And definitely, Asian communities
00:36:34:20 00:36:35:19
have that as well.
00:36:37:18 00:36:39:23
Maybe slightly less so in the US.
00:36:41:06 00:36:42:21
Like I'm originally from Taiwan, I'm
00:36:42:22 00:36:44:12
like, Taiwan is handling this
00:36:44:13 00:36:46:14
pandemic so good in comparison
00:36:46:15 00:36:48:07
to us. Taiwan's not perfect, but
00:36:49:08 00:36:51:08
when I hear about in Taiwan,
00:36:51:09 00:36:53:06
like if you go there, you
00:36:53:07 00:36:54:02
quarantine.
00:36:54:03 00:36:56:01
But they deliver you things, they
00:36:56:02 00:36:58:01
deliver you meals, they deliver
00:36:58:02 00:36:59:21
you protective equipment.
00:36:59:22 00:37:02:01
I'm just like, wow,
00:37:02:02 00:37:03:01
look at this.
00:37:03:02 00:37:05:04
But like, caring for each other
00:37:05:05 00:37:07:08
on a very organized government
00:37:07:09 00:37:08:22
level is incredible.
00:37:10:20 00:37:12:19
And it's all something
00:37:12:20 00:37:14:10
that we can try to, like,
00:37:15:20 00:37:17:21
take inspiration
00:37:17:22 00:37:19:06
and learnings from.
00:37:19:07 00:37:20:17
You know, here in the US.
00:37:22:04 00:37:23:18
We have many things to learn from
00:37:23:19 00:37:25:04
the rest of the world.
00:37:27:01 00:37:28:01
So many.
00:37:28:02 00:37:29:05
And you know.
00:37:29:06 00:37:30:04
And that and that.
00:37:30:05 00:37:32:02
No, Ali, like what is
00:37:32:03 00:37:33:22
bringing you hope I'm always
00:37:33:23 00:37:36:10
thinking about Mariam Carver's
00:37:36:11 00:37:38:24
quote of hope is a discipline
00:37:38:25 00:37:40:22
and I try to hold myself to
00:37:40:23 00:37:42:05
that because I think when we look
00:37:42:06 00:37:44:00
around, there's many reasons to feel
00:37:44:01 00:37:45:08
hopeless. Right.
00:37:45:09 00:37:47:18
And to feel sort of just exhausted
00:37:47:19 00:37:48:23
and depleted.
00:37:48:24 00:37:50:18
And I'm trying to hold myself to,
00:37:50:19 00:37:53:14
like, make space for the exhaustion
00:37:53:15 00:37:54:21
and the fatigue and the like.
00:37:54:22 00:37:56:22
I'm tired and the sigh
00:37:56:23 00:37:58:19
and also, like, clean my moments
00:37:58:20 00:38:00:14
of joy and clean my moments of light
00:38:00:15 00:38:02:06
and interdependence and like
00:38:02:07 00:38:03:10
community.
00:38:03:11 00:38:05:06
So I'm curious
00:38:05:07 00:38:07:02
for you, like what what's feeding
00:38:07:03 00:38:08:04
your hope right now?
00:38:10:14 00:38:12:08
I'm such a terrible person to ask
00:38:12:09 00:38:13:08
that question to.
00:38:14:07 00:38:15:17
I have
00:38:16:25 00:38:19:01
the low grade depression
00:38:19:02 00:38:20:23
that's with me all my life.
00:38:20:24 00:38:22:25
So I'm depressed pretty much
00:38:22:26 00:38:24:05
24 seven.
00:38:25:18 00:38:27:15
And despite how I
00:38:27:16 00:38:29:15
sound, I haven't been
00:38:29:16 00:38:31:11
feeling that hopeful.
00:38:31:12 00:38:33:13
You know, I have been struggling.
00:38:33:14 00:38:34:17
It's it's the thing I've been
00:38:34:18 00:38:35:17
struggling with,
00:38:36:24 00:38:38:18
particularly during the pandemic of
00:38:38:19 00:38:40:17
like, what things can
00:38:40:18 00:38:41:12
I look to?
00:38:41:13 00:38:43:18
And in the past, I could try to
00:38:43:19 00:38:46:16
make some future plans that are fun,
00:38:46:17 00:38:49:03
you know, with friends that I love.
00:38:51:01 00:38:52:21
Maybe trying to travel to some
00:38:52:22 00:38:54:16
nearby place.
00:38:54:17 00:38:56:20
And now I don't have that so much,
00:38:56:21 00:38:58:16
so it's hard for me to hold on
00:38:58:17 00:38:59:16
to that seed of hope.
00:39:00:23 00:39:02:10
But I will say that something that
00:39:02:11 00:39:04:03
does fill me up is just getting to
00:39:04:04 00:39:06:04
speak to other multiple
00:39:06:05 00:39:07:14
marginalized folks and other
00:39:07:15 00:39:08:15
disabled folks.
00:39:10:08 00:39:12:09
It feels at least
00:39:12:10 00:39:13:17
validating, you know,
00:39:14:18 00:39:16:12
much like how I try to do for others
00:39:16:13 00:39:18:05
in my work. Like just talking to
00:39:18:06 00:39:20:02
other people who can relate is
00:39:20:03 00:39:22:08
very validating for me
00:39:22:09 00:39:24:04
because I often feel like,
00:39:24:05 00:39:26:06
you know, you, especially
00:39:26:07 00:39:28:19
when I'm like home by myself
00:39:28:20 00:39:30:15
with my pets and
00:39:30:16 00:39:31:15
my partner.
00:39:31:16 00:39:34:06
But still it feels
00:39:34:07 00:39:35:17
my partner is non-disabled.
00:39:35:18 00:39:37:16
And so a lot of times it feels like
00:39:37:17 00:39:38:23
you're in the space.
00:39:38:24 00:39:40:18
And I spent a lot of time in my head
00:39:42:04 00:39:43:23
and I'm just like, feels like I'm
00:39:43:24 00:39:45:03
the only one going through this.
00:39:45:04 00:39:46:04
I know I'm not.
00:39:46:05 00:39:47:22
I just don't have enough interaction
00:39:47:23 00:39:49:22
with people anymore.
00:39:49:23 00:39:51:07
And I'm like, I need more of that.
00:39:51:08 00:39:53:03
I need to,
00:39:53:04 00:39:55:02
I guess, work harder at cultivating
00:39:56:15 00:39:58:05
relationships and interactions and
00:39:58:06 00:40:00:03
COVID safe ways so
00:40:00:04 00:40:02:14
that I can remember that, you know,
00:40:02:15 00:40:03:16
there are
00:40:04:17 00:40:07:09
fantastic people out there
00:40:07:10 00:40:08:21
as much as it can feel like you're
00:40:08:22 00:40:11:05
surrounded by like horribleness
00:40:11:06 00:40:13:09
and everything is all.
00:40:13:10 00:40:14:21
But you need to find
00:40:16:03 00:40:18:05
people, animal things
00:40:18:06 00:40:20:04
that resonate with you and.
00:40:21:18 00:40:23:14
I've also heard from folks that,
00:40:23:15 00:40:25:12
like, it's hard because the
00:40:25:13 00:40:26:21
things that worked for them at the
00:40:26:22 00:40:28:10
beginning of the pandemic don't work
00:40:28:11 00:40:29:16
anymore. And.
00:40:30:20 00:40:32:11
I think that's true for me as well.
00:40:32:12 00:40:33:23
They were like distractions I could
00:40:33:24 00:40:35:11
turn to.
00:40:35:12 00:40:36:15
And ultimately, I think
00:40:37:22 00:40:38:22
I'm working on this.
00:40:38:23 00:40:40:02
It's not like I have it, figure it
00:40:40:03 00:40:41:20
out, but ultimately thinking about
00:40:41:21 00:40:43:14
like, what is the most important to
00:40:45:23 00:40:47:00
And how can I
00:40:48:06 00:40:49:23
bring a little bit more of that in
00:40:49:24 00:40:51:04
my life?
00:40:51:05 00:40:53:01
You know, and I don't I don't have
00:40:53:02 00:40:54:16
the answer to that.
00:40:54:17 00:40:56:02
That's why I'm not that hopeful
00:40:56:03 00:40:57:03
right now.
00:40:57:04 00:40:58:20
I'm just I'm trying to constantly
00:40:58:21 00:41:00:12
think on it to figure out if there's
00:41:00:13 00:41:02:04
small things I can do or big things
00:41:02:05 00:41:03:05
I can do.
00:41:05:04 00:41:07:04
I mean, you know, I'd
00:41:07:05 00:41:08:05
just want to affirm that.
00:41:08:06 00:41:10:12
Right. Like, I also share
00:41:10:13 00:41:11:19
I also share this reflection of
00:41:11:20 00:41:13:11
like, wow, you know, when the
00:41:13:12 00:41:15:10
pandemic started, I was like on
00:41:15:11 00:41:16:07
my A-game.
00:41:16:08 00:41:17:23
I was like, I'm gardening.
00:41:17:24 00:41:19:22
I'm like making pasta from
00:41:19:23 00:41:22:10
scratch and, like, amazing
00:41:22:11 00:41:24:19
things. Like, I'm on it.
00:41:24:20 00:41:25:22
And it's just, I think to your
00:41:25:23 00:41:27:10
earlier point from like a pace
00:41:27:11 00:41:29:06
perspective, and I'm an organizer,
00:41:29:07 00:41:30:18
organizer in a place like Florida,
00:41:32:03 00:41:34:01
so it's like I, I know in
00:41:34:02 00:41:35:22
other areas like how important it
00:41:35:23 00:41:37:04
is to pace yourself.
00:41:37:05 00:41:38:14
But I think the pandemic was just
00:41:38:15 00:41:40:12
such a shock that we were we
00:41:40:13 00:41:42:02
went into overdrive and we put
00:41:42:03 00:41:43:19
ourselves in overdrive.
00:41:43:20 00:41:45:16
And now it's been over two years.
00:41:45:17 00:41:47:10
And you can't I mean, many of us
00:41:47:11 00:41:48:17
have been in overdrive our entire
00:41:48:18 00:41:50:06
lives because of trauma and
00:41:50:07 00:41:52:19
oppression, but I mean, sustainably,
00:41:52:20 00:41:54:02
to feel good, you cannot be in
00:41:54:03 00:41:56:04
overdrive for so long.
00:41:56:05 00:41:58:11
And I know, like I've experienced,
00:41:58:12 00:42:00:11
like being an overdrive to like for
00:42:00:12 00:42:02:15
escapism and then back to overdrive
00:42:02:16 00:42:04:12
and like dissociating and then
00:42:04:13 00:42:06:04
like this, you know, this like
00:42:06:05 00:42:08:06
roller coaster of high, low,
00:42:08:07 00:42:09:05
high, low.
00:42:09:06 00:42:10:22
And I it's been really hard to sort
00:42:10:23 00:42:13:11
of find like the ebb and flow
00:42:13:12 00:42:15:15
and the current of like, ooh,
00:42:15:16 00:42:17:09
okay, we're here, right?
00:42:17:10 00:42:18:11
Like, it just it's hard.
00:42:18:12 00:42:19:23
I think that's a challenge.
00:42:19:24 00:42:21:18
I would say all of us are up to now.
00:42:21:19 00:42:23:15
Like, what is that ebb and flow
00:42:23:16 00:42:24:17
and what is that current
00:42:25:21 00:42:27:02
going to feel like going to look
00:42:27:03 00:42:28:23
like given all these new set of
00:42:28:24 00:42:30:03
conditions?
00:42:30:04 00:42:31:10
So just want to affirm, I think
00:42:31:11 00:42:32:14
we're all trying to figure out.
00:42:32:15 00:42:34:15
I always hesitate or really
00:42:34:16 00:42:36:11
question anyone who comes in with
00:42:36:12 00:42:38:08
like, you know, really
00:42:38:09 00:42:39:04
concrete answers.
00:42:39:05 00:42:41:10
I'm like, what's that about?
00:42:41:11 00:42:43:07
So yeah, just
00:42:43:08 00:42:44:06
want to affirm that.
00:42:44:07 00:42:46:04
And I think so many of us are also
00:42:46:05 00:42:48:01
questioning and in some
00:42:48:02 00:42:49:09
ways like gaslighting ourselves
00:42:49:10 00:42:50:20
around our own experiences.
00:42:50:21 00:42:52:18
Like, you know, I
00:42:52:19 00:42:54:14
think in my perspective more
00:42:54:15 00:42:56:18
just like this, like exhaustion
00:42:56:19 00:42:58:12
to like there's exhaustion that's
00:42:58:13 00:43:00:02
like you can't like rest.
00:43:00:03 00:43:01:03
Like you can be like I'm going to
00:43:01:04 00:43:02:09
take a day to rest and then you wake
00:43:02:10 00:43:04:13
up like rejuvenated.
00:43:04:14 00:43:06:14
Like it's really hard to access that
00:43:06:15 00:43:08:17
sort of like rejuvenated
00:43:08:18 00:43:09:17
feeling.
00:43:10:14 00:43:12:03
So yeah, I just want to, wanted to
00:43:12:04 00:43:14:04
share that also to sort of affirm
00:43:14:05 00:43:14:24
I think we're all trying to.
00:43:14:25 00:43:15:23
Figure it out.
00:43:15:24 00:43:17:16
Yeah, for sure.
00:43:17:17 00:43:18:19
And I think something that's
00:43:18:20 00:43:21:08
important to know that I've
00:43:21:09 00:43:23:09
seen said over and over is like,
00:43:23:10 00:43:25:15
it's hard to recover from trauma
00:43:25:16 00:43:27:16
when you're still going through it,
00:43:27:17 00:43:29:11
you know? And the thing is like
00:43:31:05 00:43:32:21
we're still going through the trauma
00:43:32:22 00:43:34:08
because the pandemic is still
00:43:34:09 00:43:36:01
happening. As much as everyone tries
00:43:36:02 00:43:38:17
to say it's not, but it is
00:43:38:18 00:43:40:13
and it is
00:43:40:14 00:43:41:15
a global crisis.
00:43:41:16 00:43:42:24
But at the same time,
00:43:44:13 00:43:46:07
the adjusting to new normal that
00:43:46:08 00:43:47:18
we're not talking about should be
00:43:47:19 00:43:49:17
like, what if we just mass
00:43:49:18 00:43:51:05
do all the time?
00:43:51:06 00:43:52:18
What if we just got used to that?
00:43:52:19 00:43:54:08
You know, what if we got used to
00:43:54:09 00:43:56:08
taking precautions instead
00:43:56:09 00:43:58:13
of trying to pretend
00:43:58:14 00:44:00:14
like no precautions are necessary
00:44:00:15 00:44:02:22
and then reentering the cycle
00:44:04:21 00:44:06:05
variance?
00:44:06:06 00:44:08:00
You know, if we got used to a
00:44:08:01 00:44:09:17
different kind of cycle, the safety
00:44:09:18 00:44:11:11
cycle, maybe that would help.
00:44:11:12 00:44:13:04
But since we're not doing that,
00:44:13:05 00:44:14:05
it's, it's
00:44:15:02 00:44:17:03
us being retraumatized over
00:44:17:04 00:44:19:03
and over and it's just
00:44:19:04 00:44:20:17
really hard to.
00:44:21:21 00:44:23:02
Adjust to that.
00:44:23:03 00:44:25:03
When you're your
00:44:25:04 00:44:26:24
government, your authority
00:44:27:00 00:44:29:23
figures are putting you through
00:44:29:24 00:44:31:19
emotional roller coasters again
00:44:31:20 00:44:33:06
and again.
00:44:33:07 00:44:35:06
You know, and so we
00:44:35:07 00:44:36:21
have to also remember, like,
00:44:38:05 00:44:39:07
it's just hard.
00:44:40:12 00:44:42:10
You like you can't you you
00:44:42:11 00:44:44:00
sort of. You usually have to be
00:44:46:08 00:44:48:04
Somewhat distant from something
00:44:48:05 00:44:50:01
before you can really
00:44:50:02 00:44:51:25
take it all in and
00:44:52:00 00:44:53:21
try to so-called recover or
00:44:53:22 00:44:54:23
just adjust.
00:44:54:24 00:44:56:10
And we're just we're not away from
00:44:57:12 00:44:58:18
We're still in it now.
00:44:58:19 00:45:00:00
And I'm that way, too.
00:45:00:01 00:45:01:16
I'm like, Oh, I feel like I should
00:45:01:17 00:45:02:12
be over it.
00:45:02:13 00:45:04:07
And not not over the pandemic, but I
00:45:04:08 00:45:05:13
feel like I should be over this
00:45:05:14 00:45:06:13
exhaustion.
00:45:07:16 00:45:10:17
I feel like I should have adjusted,
00:45:10:18 00:45:11:15
but I'm not.
00:45:11:16 00:45:13:12
Because it's just
00:45:13:13 00:45:14:12
it's still going.
00:45:16:03 00:45:17:08
Hmm. That's so powerful.
00:45:17:09 00:45:19:01
I think I'm going to sit with that
00:45:19:02 00:45:20:24
for a while. Just like.
00:45:21:00 00:45:22:15
Yeah, like when we're still moving
00:45:22:16 00:45:25:12
through the crisis, how do we
00:45:25:13 00:45:27:03
get over the crisis?
00:45:27:04 00:45:29:02
Yeah, it's really counterintuitive.
00:45:29:03 00:45:30:04
When you say it out loud, it's like,
00:45:30:05 00:45:31:11
what? What do you.
00:45:31:12 00:45:33:05
It just doesn't make any sense.
00:45:33:06 00:45:34:02
You know?
00:45:34:03 00:45:34:21
It doesn't.
00:45:34:22 00:45:36:01
But it's funny because sometimes you
00:45:36:02 00:45:37:07
just have to hear something so
00:45:37:08 00:45:38:21
simple and clear out loud to be
00:45:38:22 00:45:40:23
like, oh, yeah, word
00:45:40:24 00:45:42:09
like, I don't know what that's
00:45:42:10 00:45:44:02
about. So I'm definitely going to
00:45:44:03 00:45:46:00
sit with that for sure for a while
00:45:46:01 00:45:47:21
because it's funny.
00:45:47:22 00:45:49:03
I'm like thinking even like my
00:45:49:04 00:45:50:14
therapy sessions, I'm processing
00:45:50:15 00:45:51:19
things that might have happened ten,
00:45:51:20 00:45:52:24
15 years ago
00:45:54:06 00:45:55:21
and it's like just now, you know?
00:45:55:22 00:45:57:06
I was just thinking of that this
00:45:57:07 00:45:58:09
morning. Like, wow.
00:45:58:10 00:46:00:04
Like, it takes it takes this
00:46:00:05 00:46:01:18
distance, it takes this time, it
00:46:01:19 00:46:03:14
takes reflection to be able
00:46:03:15 00:46:05:11
to be like, what happens?
00:46:05:12 00:46:07:04
What has been the impact of that on
00:46:07:05 00:46:09:05
me? And like we still we have,
00:46:09:06 00:46:11:10
we know like short immediate impacts
00:46:11:11 00:46:12:16
of this pandemic on us, right?
00:46:12:17 00:46:13:16
Like all the ways in which we've
00:46:14:13 00:46:16:10
But it's like, how are we like,
00:46:16:11 00:46:17:20
how are we going to be impacted five
00:46:17:21 00:46:19:15
years down the road, ten years and
00:46:19:16 00:46:20:19
beyond?
00:46:20:20 00:46:23:05
And yeah, oof,
00:46:23:06 00:46:24:03
it's a lot.
00:46:24:04 00:46:25:06
It's a lot.
00:46:25:07 00:46:27:05
I prefer not to think about that.
00:46:27:06 00:46:28:17
If I think about it, I'm just going
00:46:28:18 00:46:30:22
to be overly exhausted.
00:46:30:23 00:46:31:18
The spiral.
00:46:31:19 00:46:33:08
No, no, no, no. I'm like we.
00:46:33:09 00:46:34:12
I rebuke that today.
00:46:36:09 00:46:39:04
Yeah, but it is it is a process,
00:46:39:05 00:46:40:16
you know, and you can say words to
00:46:40:17 00:46:41:17
yourself all you are.
00:46:41:18 00:46:43:15
I can say so many platitudes, but
00:46:43:16 00:46:45:11
ultimately it's like,
00:46:45:12 00:46:47:22
oh, a long exercise
00:46:47:23 00:46:49:18
in patients with each other and
00:46:49:19 00:46:51:23
especially ourselves, you know,
00:46:51:24 00:46:54:06
I'm like, I'm the most impatient
00:46:54:07 00:46:56:08
with myself all the time.
00:46:56:09 00:46:57:17
Um, what.
00:46:57:18 00:46:59:13
What astrological sign
00:46:59:14 00:47:00:04
are you?
00:47:00:05 00:47:01:16
I'm a Libra.
00:47:03:00 00:47:03:23
I love Libra.
00:47:03:24 00:47:05:03
I'm like, That's interesting.
00:47:05:04 00:47:06:16
I feel like there must be something
00:47:06:17 00:47:08:00
else in your chart because Libra is
00:47:08:01 00:47:11:05
are usually, like, indecisive,
00:47:11:06 00:47:13:05
which sometimes can lead to,
00:47:13:06 00:47:14:23
like, a weird impatience and ask how
00:47:16:00 00:47:17:18
I'm like, I'm a tiger Libra.
00:47:17:19 00:47:18:25
It's important to notice.
00:47:18:26 00:47:21:08
Note my Chinese astrological
00:47:21:09 00:47:23:05
side is a tiger.
00:47:23:06 00:47:24:14
Oops, that part.
00:47:24:15 00:47:26:08
I'm a I'm a fire tiger.
00:47:26:09 00:47:27:09
Thank you.
00:47:28:04 00:47:28:18
Exactly.
00:47:28:19 00:47:30:16
So I'm like, oh, I'm
00:47:30:17 00:47:32:02
missing here.
00:47:32:03 00:47:34:00
Yeah. The other tiger Libra
00:47:34:01 00:47:35:02
that I've met is.
00:47:37:12 00:47:38:12
A lot like me.
00:47:39:22 00:47:41:09
We really relate to each other.
00:47:41:10 00:47:43:17
We have strong personalities.
00:47:43:18 00:47:44:23
I love that. I love when you see
00:47:44:24 00:47:46:04
yourself reflected in some way.
00:47:46:05 00:47:48:09
You're like, Oh, oh,
00:47:48:10 00:47:49:20
this okay?
00:47:49:21 00:47:51:09
I'm not alone in them.
00:47:51:10 00:47:53:04
Like, Yeah, I think, I think it's
00:47:53:05 00:47:54:22
just that trait of a tiger Libra
00:47:54:23 00:47:56:11
where we have, like, very strong
00:47:56:12 00:47:58:05
opinions, but we also try to see
00:47:58:06 00:47:59:16
things from different sides.
00:48:00:24 00:48:01:22
Very powerful.
00:48:01:23 00:48:02:21
Very powerful, but.
00:48:02:22 00:48:03:22
Yes, strong.
00:48:05:02 00:48:06:22
Oh, well, Ellie, I want to thank you
00:48:06:23 00:48:07:19
for your time.
00:48:07:20 00:48:09:18
I want to thank you for being
00:48:09:19 00:48:11:22
here with me today.
00:48:11:23 00:48:13:17
I know it's a lot earlier on
00:48:13:18 00:48:15:22
the west side of the country,
00:48:15:23 00:48:17:20
like I feel way deep in my
00:48:17:21 00:48:19:17
day, but really grateful for you
00:48:19:18 00:48:21:14
taking the time and then also just
00:48:21:15 00:48:24:06
sharing all of your observations
00:48:24:07 00:48:26:07
and the gifts. Just like.
00:48:26:08 00:48:28:07
Reminding us to, like, notice, you
00:48:28:08 00:48:29:16
know, like I'm I'm leaving this
00:48:29:17 00:48:31:03
conversation with some deep
00:48:31:04 00:48:33:08
reflections and just like, oh,
00:48:33:09 00:48:34:19
well, yeah, there are reasons why we
00:48:34:20 00:48:36:04
feel this way.
00:48:36:05 00:48:37:17
And sometimes it's not just like an
00:48:37:18 00:48:39:03
intellectual exercise.
00:48:39:04 00:48:40:16
And I really want to thank you for,
00:48:40:17 00:48:42:13
like, reminding us of
00:48:42:14 00:48:43:21
it's. Yeah, it's beyond just like,
00:48:43:22 00:48:45:04
our head and what we tell ourselves
00:48:45:05 00:48:46:07
in the head. Like, there's real
00:48:46:08 00:48:47:10
impacts of everything we're
00:48:47:11 00:48:48:21
navigating. And thank you for your
00:48:50:03 00:48:51:24
Oh, thank you so much for
00:48:51:25 00:48:53:05
having me and having this
00:48:53:06 00:48:54:21
conversation. I think it was really
00:48:54:22 00:48:56:16
validating for me as well.
00:48:56:17 00:48:58:17
So make definitely
00:48:58:18 00:49:01:00
makes me feel less alone.
00:49:01:01 00:49:03:09
Yeah. I'd love to hear it.
00:49:03:10 00:49:04:04
Love to hear it.