Uplifting Women in STEM

Welcome to season 3 of Feminism NOW! This season, our theme is “Women Uplifting Women,” and we are thrilled to open with a field where women need a lot of uplift: Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. NOW National President Christian F. Nunes speaks with Dr. Jamika Burge, Co-Founder and Board President of blackcomputeHER.org, INC, Head of Enterprise Design Research at Capital One, and a contributor to the 2022 National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine Consensus study report, “Transforming Trajectories for Women of Color in Tech.” 

Guest: Jamika D. Burge, PhD, is Co-Founder and Board President of blackcomputeHER.org, INC. Dr. Burge is an authority in research and programming that investigates the intersectionality of Black women and girls in computing, and she is also a tech founder (and principal) of Design & Technology Concepts, LLC. Jamika is also Head of Enterprise Design Research at Capital One. She is also the Founder of Capital One’s Intersectional Symposium. Jamika was a contributor to the 2022 National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine Consensus study report, “Transforming Trajectories for Women of Color in Tech,” and the host of its podcast, Transforming Tech: Advancing Innovation through Inclusion. 

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Listen to new episodes of Feminism NOW released every other Wednesday. To find out more about the National Organization for Women, visit our website.

Listen to Dr. Burge speak about innovation and inclusion in tech on Transforming Tech: Advancing Innovation through Inclusion. 

Creators & Guests

Host

Christian Nunes

BB

Producer

Bethany Brookshire

IB

Editor

Ismael Balderas-Wong

Guest

Jamika D. Burge

JH

Producer

Jeanette Harris-Courts

What is Feminism NOW?

Passionate about modern feminist issues? Want to learn more about how today's political, academic, and cultural leaders strive for a future of universal equality and justice?

Join NOW President Christian F. Nunes in a new podcast dedicated to intersectional feminist discussions in American society with leaders in entertainment, sports, politics, and science. From conversations on constitutional equality, to economic justice and reproductive rights, listeners will find new ways to learn, engage, and get empowered.

Listen for new episodes released every other Wednesday.

Jeanette Harris Courts (00:06):
Hey everyone, and welcome to Feminism NOW, a podcast from the National Organization for Women. I'm producer Jeanette Harris Courts, and I'm here to welcome you all this season three of the show. Our theme for season three is Women Uplifting Women, and one of the places where women are still struggling to get recognition is in STEM, science, technology, engineering, mathematics, or medicine. The problems of women in STEM are so well recognized that they've become part of studies from places like the National Academies of Sciences Engineering and Medicine.

(00:42):
And when the National Academies get an expert, they call Jamika Burge, co-founder and board president of blackcomputeHER.org, an organization devoted to uplifting women of color in tech professions. She's head of enterprise design research at Capital One and is an expert on how computers and people interact. We're thrilled to be speaking with her today. And while we're here, we would love to hear your thoughts. Are you a woman in STEM? What do you think would get more women involved? How are you uplifting women in your world? Contact us at [e-mail]. That's Feminismnow@N-O-W.O-R-G. Let's get into the interview.

Christian F. Nunes (01:33):
Hello everyone. Welcome back. We are in season three. I am Christian F. Nunes, the National President of the National Organization for Women, and I am so thrilled today to be here with Jamika Burge. She is the computer scientist and the co-founder and board president of blackcomputeHER, that's right computeHER.org, and it's a group devoted to getting more women of color into tech. She's one of the expert panel at the National Academy of Sciences Engineering and Medicine where she's worked on their recommendations to promote more inclusion and tech basis.

(02:12):
So this is going to be a great conversation today. And she's also the head of enterprise design research at Capital One. She is a big deal and we're thrilled to speak with her today.

Jamika Burge (02:23):
What a lovely welcome. I don't know how I can live up to that, but I'm going to try. Thank you for those flowers. I am just as enamored by you and your role and the work that you do, so thank you for having me. It's good to be here.

Christian F. Nunes (02:36):
So let's get this conversation started. I know a lot of times we hear the term or the acronym STEM, and I think sometimes people think they know what STEM's about, but I was talk a little bit more about what STEM looks like for people who are not really involved in STEM and talk more about what that space looks like for and particularly women of color.

Jamika Burge (03:02):
I love that question and I'll start by answering it from a perspective of being a computer scientist and try to weave in what I think are some similarities in what you might find in other sciences that are connected, but very different. I mean, I can't really speak about going to medical school. That isn't an experience I have, but there are some components of persisting but also excelling in all of STEM that connect in ways that may not be obvious. So I'll start by saying as a computer scientist, I didn't start out that way.

(03:37):
In fact, when I was in school, I was really drawn to English and certainly math but not computing and computer science. And so when I got to college and undergrad, I started off as a business major but moved into computer science. And one of the things that I thought was always interesting was, well, what makes a computer scientist, a computer scientist? Like am I it? Do I have it? I don't feel like I do, but how do I know? And one of the things that I was always taught early on was that computer science is really about problem solving.

(04:09):
What kinds of problems are we solving? How are we using the tools around us? In the case of computer science, programming, programming, languages, even hardware that helps to implement the code that we create. How are we using all of these peripheral tools outside of our brains that it is to really solve problems? And that's really what computer science is about from a technical perspective. It's using the tools around us to solve problems. And I think as someone who may not be in the STEM field and certainly someone who isn't in computer science, the bigger question is, what problems are important to you for solving?

(04:48):
And how do we align both those passions of things that are really interesting to you, but also how do we connect that to your own ability to connect the kinds of tools that are out there for you to those passions? So it might be that you're really interested in urban planning or making the communities in which we live better or better designed or more optimal for human use. And so you might be someone who's a civil engineer, which means you're in engineering. And if you're interested in helping people to be their best physical selves, then the kinds of problems you're solving there might lie across the range of medical science that is both physical but also mental.

(05:34):
Maybe you can help us with the way we take care of ourselves and reduce the amount of stress that surrounds us and so that you are interested in psychology and psychiatry. So the thing that connects is the fact that we're solving problems, but we're also using a level of critical thinking that helps us to ensure that we're solving the right problems for the right people, for the right situations and within the confines of the environments in which we live and work and have access. And so I think to really put a finer point on your question of what STEM for those who may not be part of.

(06:10):
It's solving problems in ways that are meaningful and enabling yourself to see STEM in a way that isn't just science, technology, engineering and math and more and more you'll see A added. So it's arts as a part of how we solve problems, but thinking more broadly about what do you really care about and how are you able to solve problems that affect multiple people even at scale? And that's where you can bring the critical thinking, the problem solving perspective, and really understanding the impact of that space, whether it's science or tech on the people who are really at the core of those solutions.

Christian F. Nunes (06:51):
I have to tell you that it's probably the best explanation I have ever heard for understanding STEM. And I like also that you added the art part because that's really important too because that's also way of healing and solving problems. But when you really speak to the critical thinking and you speak to aligning with your and aligning it to making sure it's something that you care about and having a way of solving problems, it really opens up the door and expands STEM for people who are not very familiar with that and also expanding on the different places people can possibly work in.

(07:31):
Let's carry on from that. I think one of the other things when we hear that is that for women, we're often when we're being educated, we're often limited in what we're told our options are with careers. And the options are even to this day, even in 2024, it's like they feel that we're not capable still to this day, even though we have proved them wrong many, many times. But why do you feel that we still have so many challenges and so many barriers we're seeing with women getting into these areas of STEM and careers?

Jamika Burge (08:07):
I think it's a good question, and I appreciate that you saw the way that I defined being part of a technical or even a science space as a different way of viewing the world because I think that's a part of it in some ways. How are we envisioning what a computer scientist looks like? When I was coming up, I wanted to be a dancer, and music was really important to me and I enjoyed math. And so for me, I connected to the things that were interesting to me, but I didn't see that inherent connection to tech or even math, calculus, the algebra courses, which I really, really loved and enjoyed.

(08:51):
I didn't understand what a career doing well in those spaces look like, beyond say being a math teacher. And I think for a lot of girls, especially girls of color, we find in the research that a lot of girls aren't connected to these spaces in part because they don't see anyone who looks like them and we're not speaking a language that makes sense for them. And when we connect that to what that actually looks like in practice, if we look at women entrepreneurs or even women who are tech founders, many of those organizations are designed for the social good.

(09:29):
They're not necessarily designed to add or create more tech or create more STEM problems in the world. They're actually solving problems at the heart of humanity or they're solving problems in ways that make sense. And so I think if we go backwards, it's how are we doing with showing not just girls, but all our young people, the value of applying tech in the real world. And we don't often see that with our girls. And when we look at programs that are designed to develop proficiency even at a young age, even through fun for young people and for young girls especially, they're not seeing other girls often in their programs that they're part of or in the classes in which they are taking this training.

(10:16):
And so that can be a differentiator for a lot of girls. And if they aren't connected to this space before middle schoolers, then we often lose them early on. And so part of it is exposure, part of it is understanding the value of applying the things that they do really well or even things that they didn't understand could connect to the kinds of careers that they might have and ensuring they see what it looks like and what it can be to be a career professional in these spaces. These are all some of the things that we're seeing for why we don't see more girls or why they're not encouraged to be part of this space of career development and frankly, changing the world.

Christian F. Nunes (11:00):
We agree with you on this because I think the other part of that too is making it part of the normalcy because a lot of times when you're growing up, and especially I think when you're from a community of color or even a woman or a young girl and you're trying something that doesn't have representation that looks like you. So speaking of fixing that, one of the things that you're a part of is the committee, the National Association of Science and Engineering and Medicine, and part of that is working on how you see those problems and making a report.

(11:34):
Can you tell us more about this report and what this report does? Because I think this is really helpful in trying to change some of these things that are creating, making sure that there is awareness. Tell us more about this report.

Jamika Burge (11:46):
Yes. Yes to normalizing what it means to be a STEMmer in whatever capacity that looks like. And I think in some ways that's what this report is speaking to. In particular, what does it mean to transform trajectories, which is in fact the name of the committee? How do we transform the trajectories of women of color in technical careers? And that's our opportunity through this report and this report, which I'm happy to link to and folks can have a look at. It's available online. It really is an effort led by the National Academies to do a couple of things, I would say.

(12:28):
First is bring attention to the value that women of color bring in spaces where they're often underestimated, undervalued and under supported. And it isn't because these women aren't doing well in their careers. It isn't because the companies aren't actually doing good work to support their growth. It's because they're so few still. And how might we do more to, if not change the numbers of women of color who are in these spaces at least change the experiences that they have for the better.

(13:05):
And often when we're talking about small populations and small communities, we're often talking about those of us who are most marginalized, who are left out often, or who are not invested in as much because there aren't as many of us. And so I think that's the second opportunity for this report. It's to talk about what we found through the research that speaks to what helps to engage women of color at all levels of their experiences, certainly in their educational pursuits to their career trajectories, and even within different sectors of work.

(13:42):
What does it look like to offer that success? So certainly giving exposure to the conversation as a goal, but also what do we do now that we know what it means to support these women of color and frankly, to elevate awareness of what success looks like in companies that are actually doing a lot of the things that we recommend.

Christian F. Nunes (14:02):
So for you, were there any reports, anything that came out of the report that was surprising for you?

Jamika Burge (14:08):
Surprise is a really funny word because there isn't much that surprises me, but I will tell you one of the things that was really central to the report, which I actually was happy to see in a surprisingly good way. So I'll use surprise in that way. I think it was a really great opportunity for us as we talk about women of color to talk about the kinds of experiences that women of color have that are unique to their experiences. And in particular when we talk about intersectionality, that as a term which is not a framework, it's not a way to castigate people who don't understand what it means.

(14:55):
It truly just talks about how women of color who are facing different kinds of experiences, often discrimination in different ways, and how the different ways that they're discriminated against actually show up in how they're treated and kind of opportunities that they have. And often this is happening in ways that are not obvious and certainly not obvious if you're not a woman of color, if you aren't a Black woman, for example. And so highlighting that set of experiences for women of color in tech was really important and it was important to the messaging because it meant that we couldn't look away.

(15:32):
We couldn't ignore what many women, actually I can't think of any woman who doesn't experience this, but let me just speak very practically. It can be easy as a Black woman, for example, when I'm in a room of people who don't look like me to ignore my experiences, to assimilate. But when we call out the fact that, you know what, I am different, but I'm actually more similar to some of these white guys who are some of my best friends in the room because of our shared experiences, say, in education or in where I grew up.

(16:03):
So there are lots of ways to think about identity and how we show up, but I think the value of focusing on intersectionality in this report was really important to ensuring that we didn't look away and that we acknowledge that some people's lives and experiences are just different and it's no fault of their own. It's no fault of ours. This isn't, again, putting blame on any people, but it's the system that's broken. And so how do we work within it to ensure that all of us not just have a fear shake, but all of us get the opportunities to shine and actually provide perspectives to problem solving that are necessary.

(16:42):
We need perspectives from everybody in the room, especially for developing experiences for those who aren't in a room. That makes it even more important.

Christian F. Nunes (16:51):
Absolutely. I also like that you name that sometimes depending on that area, that place that you work in, sometimes you may have more relatability to the white man that's also working in tech than someone else is working in different field. Sometimes you have to also acknowledge that, and it doesn't take away from the racism or the racial microaggressions or the gender microaggressions or any of that other experiences that you do have as a Black woman. But there are still going to be some relatability in the other area.

(17:21):
But it does not take away from those other things that you experience and the oppression, discrimination that you experienced to Black women because that stuff is still very, very much, very, very real.

Jamika Burge (17:30):
Very, very real. And part of the criticism that we often hear in spaces where we talk inclusion and belonging and diversity of thought is that in order to elevate those who are traditionally marginalized and who do live at the margins of what the masses actually represent is that we're ignoring the majority in ways that aren't fair or that aren't inclusive. And I think it's the travesty of what it means to talk inclusion because inclusion means that we cannot support those whose experiences are different then I've just misunderstood that term all my life.

(18:15):
And I think we have an opportunity to really reshape what inclusion means because it is about acknowledging that again, I'm from the South. So I have a very specific mental model of growing up in rural America in low socioeconomic spaces that helped me to understand the world in very different ways than even people who were born into money. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize the value that meeting in the middle can provide. And I think if we consider that we are more than the sum of our parts, that helps us to see if I focus on this opportunity for women of color in particular, then I'm not seeing this group as other, which often happens.

(19:05):
I'm seeing these as colleagues whose experiences are perhaps different, but all of us as part of problem solving are necessary to the work. And that's the perspective that I think we miss out on when we don't really broaden our perspectives about who should be a computer scientist or who should be a doctor, etc.

Christian F. Nunes (19:28):
Absolutely.

(19:33):
There's an election coming up and listeners, you probably have feelings about it, and the more we read or watch the news, the more helpless we can feel. But we do have one thing that we all can do. We can get out the vote. So this is your chance to do your part, get out the vote. Research says the number one thing to get people to vote is a personal connection. You can make calls, you can send letters to potential voters, but what really works is to talk to your friends, talk to your family, and get them to vote. You can take action now.

(20:11):
And now back to our interview.

(20:19):
We are talking this season about the importance of women uplifting women, and Jamika has done something very important in her work when she has develop blackcomputHER, which is really important about uplifting women in STEM. So I want to ask you this question, Jamika, because I want to talk a little bit about blackcomputHER because I think you've done some incredible work with this organization. Can you talk to us a little bit about why you decided to start the organization blackcomputHER, a little bit about what you do with that organization?

Jamika Burge (20:49):
Anytime I get the opportunity to talk about blackcomputHER, I get excited. So thank you for asking. We officially sought nonprofit 501(c)(3) status in 2016, but we started because so many of us were going to these tech conferences being part of a workforce where we were one of a small number of contributors, including in our degree programs. And when we go to these meetings, there's inevitably the conversation after the conference where we're all in somebody's room or we're all having dinner together and we're all talking about our experiences.

(21:31):
And we're all also at a table of maybe five or six of us, if we're lucky 10 maybe, of a conference of thousands are also the only women of color and the only Black women at that conference, or a small number of those who are at the event in question. And so it became really clear that we needed an opportunity to have a space to share and connect in ways that both acknowledged our contributions in the space, but also acknowledged the differences of how our experiences were showing up in these spaces.

(22:09):
And it wasn't just to be a place where, oh, I see another Black woman doing cool stuff. How might we create an effective infrastructure around sustaining community? And so that's how we started. How might we create a space that elevates our value, but also creates research into what other organizations might need to do or might benefit from doing if it increases their ability to be more inclusive, but also what does it look like for us to have those kinds of programs that develop Black women and allies?

(22:54):
And so three things are part of our working model and that have kept us as long as we've been around. The first is we started by convening a yearly conference, but that convening was really an important part of how we started to create that fundamental community, finding your connection, finding those people who've been where you've been, who have been where you're going, and provide that level of mentorship. Remember, if we can't see it's hard to do it. And so there was already baked into this experience, a mentorship component that was just seamless.

(23:30):
The other part of what we've created as a set of programs is our fellows program. It's our staple program where we invite women to participate in our yearlong fellows program to get technical training, to be part of community, and to be poured into. We invest in these women who spend a year of their time connecting with us through webinars and expert connections. And it's that model of community and targeted community development through our professional development, through community that we've seen other similar or other fellows programs evolve and get stood up, which is really great to see.

(24:14):
And the third thing that I think is a really important contribution of our set of programs through blackcomputHER is the value of partnerships and acknowledging that while women of color have experiences that are unique, that it really takes all of us working together to find the value in the kinds of programs that are meaningful through blackcomputHER, but frankly anywhere we see value in solving problems that are meaningful to the world. And so we've set up and are setting up more partnerships to build in.

Christian F. Nunes (24:52):
Wow. So that's really great because I love what you're saying is it's not just about uplifting, but it's also about sustainability. And what you've identified are ways that you're trying to set the path for sustainability so that you're helping them connect, but preparing for them to have a long term sustainability, prosperity, development, growth through the pathways. And also connection because that's really important, that succession, that mentoring, that connection with other people who are very much like-minded, who they can develop those relationships with and take with them and it's not just this one time thing.

(25:30):
So I think that as a perfect way to show how you're uplifting other women in this field.

Jamika Burge (25:36):
Thank you for that and I appreciate that call out too, because there've always been mentoring programs and even programs designed to support, say, Black girls or girls of color in middle school or high school in computing or engineering that helped to develop their skills outside of school. And that's great. We need those programs. I think what blackcomputHER seeks to do is fill in some gaps with what does it mean once you persist and decide, you know what, I'm going to do this work. I am absolutely interested in continuing as a professional in this space.

(26:23):
So knowing that we can't solve all the ills of the world, there are these spaces where, to your point, we can build community.

Christian F. Nunes (26:32):
So we're coming to the end of our show, so I would just like you to share with our listeners for you what do you think is something that's important for listeners that they can do to make sure that they're uplifting other women in their lives, especially for those women either in STEM or just women in general. What is something that other women can do to make sure they're uplifting women in their lives?

Jamika Burge (26:55):
Oh wow. You save the hardest, best question for the last part of our time together. What to do to uplift other women? Listen, pay attention, support. The things that seem so small are also the things that just make us human. I don't ask for anything different than what I think a male colleague asks for or someone who's been in this space a lot longer than I have. I think listening and providing mutual respect are timeless and no gender, no race, no culture or creed, but it enables us to really show up as humans and as connectors in meaningful ways.

(27:40):
Often we get triggered by what we see or what we know. But again, if I acknowledge that I might show as an obvious Black woman, I'm also cisgender, I'm Christian. There are all kinds of ways that I show up in the world that actually might be more connected for you as someone who may not identify with any of those things. But we're also people at the end of the day. So what does it look like to just connect? Well, mutual respect and listen, and I'll listen to you, I think are really important for supporting and uplifting women as well as people.

(28:19):
And if I think about women of color, it's recognizing that we certainly have different experiences, but at the end of the day, we're human just like anybody else.

Christian F. Nunes (28:30):
Absolutely. We're all human. We all deserve to be heard. And what I always say is we have to listen to listen and not listen to respond. Right?

Jamika Burge (28:40):
See, that's the definition of active listening in my mind, and maybe it's the researcher in me, but it really does require us to get out of our own way. And let me say that again, get out of our own ways, which enable us to really hear and listen. And it's with that lens that we're actually able to see that, again, some people's experiences are just different. They don't have the opportunities that others have. It doesn't mean that they're not good enough or they wouldn't be good enough if they were given the opportunity.

(29:06):
But what does it look like to provide equitable supports and equitable awareness of what it means to show up in the workplace? Because equal is not equitable. And I think that's the difference, right? Equity-

Christian F. Nunes (29:22):
Say that again please.

Jamika Burge (29:23):
Well, equality gives us, everybody gets the same thing. And I appreciate that because it's a modicum of fairness that means that I don't get more than you and you don't get more than I do. But then you have equity where I may not need as much as you, and both of us might need less than a third person. So how are we ensuring if we're all going to get to the same place or have the same access, the same opportunities then equity means that you give folks what they need to get where they need to go, and that's different.

(29:57):
And so that's the value of listening, of paying attention, and of meeting me where I am as another person. Because then you start to see, okay, there's more than meets the eye. And then that's where you understand that the conversation around equity takes on a whole new perspective because you see people for who they are. You see them for the experiences they've been through, and you're less likely to want to hoard. And in the spirit of true fairness and justice, we give people what they need and we recognize that there are some barriers that have made it impossible for all of us to start at the same starting point.

(30:38):
And that's the value, I believe, of organizations like blackcomputHER. We recognize that we all have different sets of experiences, we all have different needs, but we also recognize, we call it what it is. You said that earlier, we call it what it is, and recognize that some people just don't have the same opportunities. Doesn't mean that their capacity to learn and improve or to make an impact is different. It just means we just had a different starting point. So how do we ensure that everyone gets the opportunity to grow given what they need?

Christian F. Nunes (31:07):
Absolutely. And that's how we can up uplift people.

Jamika Burge (31:10):
Period.

Christian F. Nunes (31:11):
Wow. Jamika, that has been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming onto Feminism NOW. This has been such a great conversation, and thank you for everything that you do.

Jeanette Harris Courts (31:21):
Do you have a STEM woman in your life? Are you a woman in STEM yourself? Well, we'd love to hear from you about your experiences as women uplift women this season. This podcast, Feminism NOW is a production of the National Organization for Women. If you like what you hear, please like, subscribe, and send it to your friends. You can also contact us at [e-mail]. That's feminismnow@N-O-W.O-R-G. Head to now.org to read up on NOW's core issues in their approach to advancing women's equality. Together we can make a difference.

(32:08):
Once again, I'm Jeanette Harris Courts. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you soon.