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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: All right, uh, let's begin. If you could say your name, spell your name, and your title.
>> Matt Rogers: My name is Matt Rogers. M A T T R O D G E R, S. And I am the vicar at, uh, St. Mark's Church. Grimsby. Its official title is Great Grimsby.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Great Grimsby, Yeah. All right, so let's begin there. Tell us about Grimsby, the town itself.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. So Great Grimsby, great place. Uh, yeah. Northeast Lincolnshire. So for geography wise, uh, in England, head up the east coast, and it is above Norfolk, below Yorkshire, at the mouth of the Humber estuary. So Grimsby and its neighboring town, Immingham, are the biggest ports for imports, export in the uk and it is also the real beating heart of green energy, because in the Humber and North Sea, we have countless wind turbines that's taking out a load of energy. Okay. And, uh, yeah, so that's it. Sort of current, uh, day industry and trade. All right, Dave. It was a fishing port. Ah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Ah.
>> Matt Rogers: Fun fact for you. Fun fact, Fun fact. Uh, in the 1950s, 60s, Grimsby was the biggest fishing port in the world.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Was it really?
>> Matt Rogers: It was. It was. Genuinely had a lot of vessels, um, and it was very wealthy at that point. So a lot of money going in and out. The problem is that the fishermen, um, they were quite superstitious. So, uh, they'd earn their money for their catch. They would drop some off at home. They would spend it in the local bars and pubs, and then they would say, you can't go to sea with money in your pocket because it's bad luck. So they never really saved anything.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They just creating a legend that you can't. Should we start saying that in church? You can't leave church with money in your pocket. That's bad luck.
>> Matt Rogers: You have to leave it behind.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You have to leave it behind.
>> Matt Rogers: Get the blessing. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah, we should make that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I think, you know, why do we let go of certain things in the. In the past? Well, the reason why we're having the conversation is because you, the Grimsby, your Church. The name of the church is St Mark's St Mark's and Grimsby is a revitalized church plant, for lack of a better word. Is that what you all would call it?
>> Matt Rogers: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we might call it. Sometimes we talk about church planting. Sometimes that suggests that you start a church somewhere, uh, completely from scratch. But St. Mark's had been a church since the 1950s, and, um, it basically shrunk down to a congregation of four people. So, yeah, so we're like, let's go again. Let's start again. And, um, let's revitalize it. Okay. That's what we do.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And so that's what we want to talk about.
Holy Trinity is the engine of church revitalization and church planting in Britain
You've been there four years, but we're going to go back to the beginning here for a second, because the reason why this is, I think, a good conversation to have is. But many of us in the United States have heard about Holy Trinity. Brompton. Yeah, htv. Brompton Mothership. Htv, exactly. Uh, which is where Alpha came from. Which is. And it basically, my words, one could say that it is the engine of church revitalization and church planting in the United Kingdom at this point.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, it's definitely one of the big movers and shakers. Um, they're amazing. Yeah. In terms of the number of churches that they've revitalized and resources.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: But as best as I've been able to tell, there are no books out there on how HCB does this. But they do have a formula. There is something they figured out, worked in London. Let's try it in other places. So this would be of, like, let's learn from how they're doing. What are they doing? Is there a magic, um, formula. And this is not magic, like wizards. Uh, but is there a formula that seems to work more often than not? So let's go back to the very beginning of when you were going to do a church chart. Before this opportunity came up in Grimsby. Where were you? What were you doing? What was your ministry?
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, sure. Let me just throw a caveat in there and just say that, um, I'm not the vicar of hdb. Uh, Archie Coates is amazing. Nikki Gumbel was before him. Sandy Miller before that. They're the experts in that stuff. But what I can do is give a perspective of someone who's part of the network. Saint Marx is what we might call a grandchild of hdb. Because if I wind backwards now, before we planted or revitalized St. Mark's we had planted St. Swithin's in Lincoln out of HDB in 2014. And we, uh, were part of being part of that revitalization. So I'm, um, on my second go now.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay. Which is good, because that means that you've seen it once.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And you've taken what you learned there, and now you're applying it. Because you are the vicar.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, that's right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You are the planter in Grimsby. And this, I think, particularly also the fact that it's in Grimsby, because one could easily say, we're going to go and plant a church in a rich part of England, a rich part of London. Um, and everyone would be like, well, that's great, because you're in a rich part of town. Of course it's going to work there. Grimsby is anything but the rich part of town.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, Right. So even when we planted Into Lincoln in 2014, the City of Lincoln, small.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: This was what would now be the parents of Brimsby.
>> Matt Rogers: Uh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So great city. Not huge. About 100 to 120,000 people in the area. Large student population. Um, a lot of the bigger cities already had sort of big, thriving Anglican churches. M. And other churches, of course, as well. So even Lincoln was a little different. But HDB would only plant a church or revitalize a church at, uh, the invitation of the bishop.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay.
>> Matt Rogers: So they couldn't. They don't move in and say, hey, look, we're gonna. We're gonna start a church. It's gotta be relational. So that's absolutely critical. The bishop invites the. The plant. So we do Lincoln. And Lincoln, you know, great city. Again, not super wealthy, but, um, a different tactic. So my role there, I was student pastor, I was youth pastor, um, part of the wider team. And, you know, we gave it a go and so forth. We can come back to that anyway.
Church attendance in Grimsby was only 0.4% in 2012
But, yeah, go to Grimsby, you're in an area where the average salary is half of the UK average. Um.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Ah, it's an impoverished area.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. It's a lot of deprivation. A lot of people don't work. Um, it's like any town, though. It has its nice bits. It has its difficult parts. I'd say a lot of Grimsby is poor, but it's not dangerous. Sometimes people think, oh, uh, it's a really rough place, actually. The people are amazing. It's a great place. But you haven't got people queuing to go to Grimsby. And people will often say, why did you come to Grimsby? Thinking, why not? And in terms of Lincolnshire as the great county Grimsby, Cleethorpe, this area is the most populated urban centre. And yet the church attendance was so low, like 0.4%. If you think in the UK at the time it was around 8%. 0.4% is no good.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, so just to reiterate the numbers, because I want to make sure that everyone who heard this understood the numbers. The average church attendance in a place would be 8% of a population in the greater area.
>> Matt Rogers: That's right, yeah. That's uh, sort of 2012 figures.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And in Grimsby it was 0.4%.
>> Matt Rogers: Four from what we could see on the statistics of the Anglican churches.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So not even like 1% instead of 8? It wasn't even like 1%. It was less than half of 1%.
>> Matt Rogers: Okay. Really struggling. Yeah, I don't think it had always been like that. I think it had, you know, more thriving churches. So something's gone wrong here.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Well, it used to be a very rich place when it was the wealthiest.
>> Matt Rogers: Train town, probably when they built a lot of the churches. I've got a theory behind this. Can I share it with you?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, go for it.
>> Matt Rogers: So Mark's started its life like a lot of churches in the UK as uh, a tin tabernacle. You come across that Tim Tabernacle.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Never heard of that.
>> Matt Rogers: So these are mission churches that were basically prefabricated buildings. They're made of like, um, corrugated steel or whatever. So they're put up new, uh, communities there, new houses. They put this church up. It's like temporary. So the idea is that you can go, you can worship on a Sunday and then you get out of there and you like, live your Christian life out in the community. So what starts to happen is these churches start to grow because people are coming, the church is going out, mission elite people coming back in, gathering and scattering, gathering and scattering. And then the money starts coming into the town and what you find is a lot of these tin tabernacles are getting knocked down and they're building these fantastic brick monument churches to say, we can afford this now. But what starts to happen is the people who felt they could attend the tin tabernacle, very simple, were like, oh, we're not churchy people. So they're not going to the brick monuments because that's for like important, wealthy, well dressed churchy people.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They felt they belonged in the tin, uh, cheap looking, sort of like temporary space. But now it looks like it's establishment.
>> Matt Rogers: So my theory is that we need to move back from monument to mission hut. Now St. Mark started its life as a tin tabernacle, but when they built it out of brick, it's a 19, sort of 60s. It's more like a big school hall, big gymnasium.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: It's not the old Gothic that we know from England.
>> Matt Rogers: It's got some pretty bits in it, but it's simple. So people quite like that. It's a humble building, and I think it says something about the spirituality of the people. I think they're very spiritual in grimsm, be quite superstitious. But it's all quite mixed up. So we need to find a way of saying to people, there are answers in this place. You can practice your spirituality, but it's found actually in this God of love. You got to come and encounter him. So that's been m. Part of our journey of seeing how the church come to life. Uh, there. But do you want me to hop back to the sort of.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: No, keep going. I want to take notes. So I'm just making sure.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, sure.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: To take my notes. Yeah, keep going.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. How do we start that part?
Most people in Lincolnshire live within an urban center, according to research
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So we were going back to the very beginning, and you were telling us. So you were at the. For hdb planted in Lincolnshire.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, that's right. Into Lincoln. The city of Lincoln.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: The city of Lincoln. And now it was somehow came the call. Um, so I'm guessing it was an invitation from the bishop.
>> Matt Rogers: Totally. To Grinsby. Yeah. So what happens is that the Diocese of Lincoln draw up this strategy. They're like, okay, we need to resource the urban centers of the diocese. And for anyone who knows Lincolnshire, it's a lot of. It's a really large geographical area because there's so much farmland. So people often think, uh, it's a rural area, but actually, most people live within an urban center. But as they look at these statistics for church attendance in the Anglican Church, what they find is that it's really, really low across the board. So most of the people who live in Lincolnshire are not attending church, certainly not an Anglican church. So they draw up this list of 10 urban centers. And, um, at the top of the. Is Grimsby. Grimsby. Second City of Lincoln. Well, we've done the city of Lincoln. Third is Scunthorpe and so forth. Other market. Market towns we can talk about.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, no, no, no. You don't have to go down the name of the cities that no one of our listeners will have heard of.
>> Matt Rogers: Already.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I think we're stressing their imagination. There's a place called Lincoln that's not related to our president. Yes, you are. And that somehow, look, you need to.
>> Matt Rogers: Look up Lincolnshire because a lot of the boats, like the Mayflower sailed out of Lincolnshire, and, uh, a lot of the settlements you've got in the States. So I can tell you now, if I drive, if I drive from Lincoln to Boston in Lincolnshire, I have to drive through New York. True. New York in Lincolnshire is a small village of about.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I, uh, lost about your ability to drive on water. But let's go there.
When you were training for ministry, you said you'd go anywhere
Okay, so you're there, you're in Lincolnshire. You get the invitation for the bishop. It's time. Grimsby is next.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. So I'm training for ordination at this point, and we're like, this is fun, but where do we go next? Are we staying in the diocese? And we, uh, see Grimsby at the top of the list and we're like, right, sure, who's going to do Grimsby? Like, all the best of them. Like, God bless them, they're going to be great. So, uh, I get ordained and then, um, we start looking for this next place where we're going to go. Where's the first, uh, sort of placement going to be? So when I.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: In this we. Is this you and the diocese, you and the family?
>> Matt Rogers: My wife, um, well, kids. We had one child at the time. So I'm saying, lord, we'll go anywhere. Just probably not further north than Lincoln, because my family lives south in Hampshire and Kent. So we're like, yeah. And, uh, I sense the Lord say to me, hey, look, just a few years ago when you were training for ministry, I thought you said you'd go anywhere. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, anywhere.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: But I was only kidding, Lord.
>> Matt Rogers: Probably not far enough. So, uh, we start to realize, hang on a second, Grimsby could be us. So we drive over there. It's about 50 minutes in the car from Lincoln, and we're like, wow. We sit in the middle of the shopping center, and I'm like, oh, I don't think we're going to fit in here. Why? Because I look like this middle class guy dressed in navy blue sweater on chinos. Everyone's there in trackies. God. Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: What's a tracky?
>> Matt Rogers: Tracks, tracksuit, buttons.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, sweatpants.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, that's it. Yeah, you got it.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, okay, okay.
>> Matt Rogers: And I'm like.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And you're like this preppy.
>> Matt Rogers: I'm, um.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Like, what are they gonna think of me?
>> Matt Rogers: Right? With a Southern accent. With, uh.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: A Southern accent.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, with a Southern accent. They're gonna think.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And then this posh person does not know anything about it.
>> Matt Rogers: I just hear God say to me, get over yourself. And I just hear God saying, what are you on about? Just be obedient just go. So that was the start of a journey. I'm not saying I had an epiphany where suddenly God was like big finger from the sky. Grimsby is the place of anointing. You're going, it's anointed leader. No, we just knew we needed to say yes and amen, because that's been the story of ministry for us. The Lord places something on your heart or opens the door and you say, yes and amen. And God has cared for us and provided for us and given us the resources. So we're like, well, I don't think God's going to let us down. So we'll say yes, we'll go. So we start building, um, a team. We get a bit of funding to employ sort of kids and youth pastor. Worship pastor.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: In Grimsby.
>> Matt Rogers: In Grimsby.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And yourself, or no?
>> Matt Rogers: Um, yeah, I'm going, yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: No, no, But I mean, you get money for yourself and you get money.
>> Matt Rogers: For your operations, support, admin support. So we start recruiting this team and we turn up in terms of speed. People start relocating, they move house.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Uh, which begs the question at this point, because when you're talking about people moving from Lincolnshire, I'm guessing, or other places nearby within the same sort of geographic area, but still, people are picking up their entire families and moving.
>> Matt Rogers: And, uh, some people are moving hundreds of miles. So we start sharing with people. We're going to be planting a Grimsby, and we're sharing it with friends. Some people we're going to employ, but some are family, some are friends. And people are going. I don't know why, but I sense we need to be a part of this. We want to come and support it. So people are selling houses in London, in Kent, in Norfolk, northern county, uh, Hertfordshire, and they're literally moving their lives. And there are other halves if they've got, you know, if they're married or whatever, uh, are having to find new jobs. And we just start seeing how God is moving the hearts of people to say we want to be part of something greater in the most unlikely place in England.
The Episcopal Church is planning churches in ten urban centers
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay, so let me pause you there for a second, because comparing it to the US Model, when the Episcopal Church is planning churches, I see, uh, at least one big difference right now, which is you're not doing it alone. You're going as a team in there. Uh, how many were on your team?
>> Matt Rogers: So important. So. So our staff joined. Staff team or plant, like, planting team.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Uh, uh, how many were paid?
>> Matt Rogers: Let's.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Let's begin.
>> Matt Rogers: Paid me? Yeah. Worship pastor, youth pastor operations.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay. So four people were paid.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Can I ask and, and feel free to say I don't want to share that number because it's not public or whatever. But what was the overall investment made? And was it by the diocese? Was it htb?
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Who sort of put up the money?
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. So just to give an idea, you can do the maths, but the way it works is, uh, and keeping in.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Mind that in the uk, the salaries are set by the National Church.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, that's right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They're relatively small. You're not living the big life.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. So that's me covered. I'm on a stipend. I get to pay the same as any other priest vicar elsewhere. The other guys are on, uh, uh, a modest salary for that sort of markup, but it's certainly costing them something. Some are leaving jobs where they get paid more to come and do this in Grimsby. Uh, and what we're doing is we're part of a funding bid made by the diocese. It's financial investment from the diocese and um, from the Church of England church commissioners. And um, um, the salaries are being funded on a sliding scale. So in the first year they're paying the whole salary. In the second year they pay 80%, we pay 20, 60, 40 and so forth until at year five you're basically, you're out of cash. And the idea is that as the church grows, because you're getting this upfront investment, uh, people are starting to give financially and you're able to, to cover your costs and it's able to wash its own face. So the idea is that this money is seed money is put in in order to resource that in such a way you couldn't do it. So if we didn't have the funding, it would be like me and my family and a few people who are like, they may be willing to move, but you're going to move fast, far slower. So the diocese put in a capital, ah, investment and they put in a bid to the church, Church of England, who put money in. Um, hdb, um, are really generous with their resources and training. So they put me through a training program called the accelerator program and they put us through coaching programs. They're funding all of that. We're part of this support network and they didn't have to do this, but at the end of the first year they sent us a financial gift as well. You know, something like about £10,000. And they said, well, you spend on whatever you need to do, but that money at this point is going into mission and Ministry. So we're like, hey, yeah, we wanted to do this outreach. We'll start this project. And um, that's just going to be possible. It's again, it accelerates the growth.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay.
>> Matt Rogers: So.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And at this point was, were the diocese and whoever were the financial backers investing in this work? Were they all in for five years? They all said, we'll m do this for five years.
>> Matt Rogers: It's a sealed bid and it's part of the bigger strategy. So the project was called, or, uh, is called Resourcing the Urban church. Okay. So they put in a bid basically in order to revitalize these 10 urban centers. But what they say is most of the sort of the core funding goes into what they call resource churches. So the church we were at in Lincoln was a designated resource church. They would have to plant at least two churches out, possibly three once, because.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They'Re bigger and they have resources, they've.
>> Matt Rogers: Got more staffing and so forth. Another one's like middle of the county in Grantham, another one south of the county in Stamford. So there's an expectation that as part of this, those resource churches and you know, like strawberry plants. You have strawberry plants with strawberry runners.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, I have no idea what that is.
>> Matt Rogers: In which case, let me explain. So we grow strawberries in the garden. Okay. The way the plant works is you put it in the ground, it yields some strawberries, and then it gets these little runners that come out and they go off. And then the runners grow leaves and they put down roots in the soil. Okay. Yeah. So. And then you can, once the roots are in, you can detach it and it grows strawberries and then it puts out runners again and beds down more.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So churches keep replanting and replanting, Something like that.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. It's a church that plants. So we are always a planting church. So in Grimsby, the expectation is we're going to plant again, we're going to do it in a year's time. So we are. It's the investment that keeps on giving. All right. That's the idea.
What was the overall investment over five years, monetarily wise
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So I have some very specific questions.
>> Matt Rogers: Mhm.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: What was the overall investment over five years, monetarily wise? What was the overall.
>> Matt Rogers: Just for Grimsby or just for Grimsby? Oh, uh, that's a good question. I'd have to look at. I'd have to look at the figures. But we're. Oh, let's just think. Yeah. Uh, I mean, a few hundred thousand probably.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay. Yeah, A few hundred thousand. Like more than 500,000, less than 500,000. Do some math. Math. Because in the UK, there is not math. There's math, plural. For reasons that are. Have never been really quite clear to me. I'm doing this while he's actually looking at his calculator as we speak, uh.
>> Matt Rogers: To figure it out. Okay, so I reckon you're around.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: It's okay to do. Ballpark.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. So I reckon it's about £250,000 over five years. Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: To start a new church plant in the.
>> Matt Rogers: Okay, yeah, that's not what it's doing. That's mainly funding salaries, but we also got some money to, uh, launch things. So imagine you turn up a church at, uh, a church that's basically dead, and you're like, well, we're going to need a sound system. Well, that doesn't exist. So you buy your sound system, you buy your flags and boards and signage. You buy some resources for the youth ministry. So we have £50,000 to buy for that, for the equipment, and for the first year, basically, capital equipment. That's it. And admission.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: That's very cheap.
>> Matt Rogers: And then about £20,000 for building repairs. So we're like, you know, fixing the broken gutters and stuff like that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You've mentioned very far, your towers are about to fall down.
>> Matt Rogers: That's another story. Hey, if anyone wants to donate to the tower. Exactly right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They're doing a great job. So just.
Okay, so let's recap where we're at. You've arrived in Grimsby with your team of four
Okay, so let's recap where we're at. You've arrived in Grimsby, you and your team of four that are paid, but there's probably others who are supporting you, who might be there with you, who are very supportive, who might even be willing to drive the 15 minutes from Lincolnshire to come down and be with you.
>> Matt Rogers: Right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So. But there's a team of four. You have the money for at least five years. You're like, we're going to make this happen. So. And you have. Which I think is worth mentioning, you have a builder.
>> Matt Rogers: Yes.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: But, uh, you don't have to worry about, like, where are we going to meet? You have a building that had four people, and hopefully, uh, they'll stick around. But if not, then maybe we can find somewhere nearby. That's one of the benefits of England. There's like a church every three steps.
>> Matt Rogers: So. Yeah, absolutely.
M. Yarrow founded a church in Manchester in September last year
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So what were the first things you did when you got there? To say, okay, we're planning. How long did it take before you first worship? How did you do it? Let's go down that path.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. So we had a bit of a dilemma and that I asked the existing congregation, so I went to meet the congregation in the summer before we arrived. All four of them? Yeah, all four of them. And I met them for like a tea cake. Yarrow.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Very brilliant.
>> Matt Rogers: Come around to your house. Can I talk to you about what we'd like to do? M. I'm going to meet the new vicar. So this is great. So I go in to see them and I'm like, this is what we'd like to do. And what they said was, we realized we're the last generation here and if, if we're the last, then that's the end of the church here. It's going to get sold off.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: It'll become, I'm guessing they were older.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, in their 80s, 90s. So they say to me, you do whatever you need to do. We would rather see the church stay open and alive than trying to just do what has happened here for years. So I'm saying that's really kind of you. But basically their gift to us was to give over their preferences in order that we could resuscitate the church. And you know what, apart from those who have gone to glory, they're still with us. Oh, wow.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: God bless them.
>> Matt Rogers: Now they find the sort of main service a little overwhelming. It's got a lot of people, it's loud. So I do a once a month eucharistic service. It's a lot quieter. Uh, other, uh, people come too. But I'm really doing it to honor them and I quite enjoy quiet service occasionally. So that's a great stop. But what, so what I want to do is I want to find out, hey, who comes to this church, how do I contact them? Like, because there's always people on the fringes, right, who might, such and such might just turn up. But no one has any like, address or anything for them. So I'm like, they're like, well, our services are 9:30 on Sunday morning. So I'm like, I'm thinking in my mind strategically, let's take a break for a month, um, from Sunday services and let's just meet with the planting team and pray and worship. But I'm like, what if someone turns up at 9:30 on Sunday morning? So we decide instead of doing an official launch in the November, let's.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: When was this?
>> Matt Rogers: You were in September. We arrived September. We're going to officially launch in November. But we realized there's no way of communicating to anyone about the services. So I'm like, we better be there on September 5th. Which is great. It's my birthday. I'm like, great, we're going to birthday is a celebration. So we arrive September 1st. It's a Wednesday. And, um, if I've got the days right, I might have a role. You can. It's okay. So we turn up on Wednesday.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: That's the important part.
>> Matt Rogers: And we get the doors open. And people in our community are like, can we come in? But sure, come in. So I'm now, like, saying to them, oh, have you ever been to church here? And they're like, no, why don't you come to church here? I'm like, ever been to a service? They're like, no.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So wait, these were people just walking down the street outside.
>> Matt Rogers: So there were various people who had been connected at various points in the past. So they'd either come for, like, um, judo or, you know, karate club or dance clubs. And there were some local connections.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay.
>> Matt Rogers: And, um, so they'd been challenged. Friends. Oh, I heard you're reopening the church. Like, are you gonna get the doors open on Wednesday? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come in, come on. Bring your kids. It's absolute chaos. It's, uh, genuine chaos. And I'm talking to them and I'm saying, everybody church here. And, uh, that. No, I'm like, you should come on Sunday. We're going to relaunch the church. Why did I say that we weren't going to relaunch it?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: You're like, but I just. Two months away from that.
>> Matt Rogers: I know. So I'm telling you, we're going to restart the church. They're like, oh, we can't. Our kids will be noisy. It's not going to work. They'll be disruptive. I said, my kids are going to be there. It's going to be chaos. It's going to be great. But I'm thinking inside, I'm like, they're not coming.
Mark says in the UK it's very scary to invite others to church
So I'm expecting the four older folk. Me, my wife, and the large team and the launch team. And, um. Um, I get up. It's 9:30. I get up to the front. I'm like, great to see you. The doors open at the back, and in come these families. I think two, three families come in. I'm like, oh, my goodness. They actually came. I promised them a service. Yeah. So we had this service. And, um, I'm like, how does that feel? They're like, yes, fine. They still come every single week. Oh, wow. So I start to realize at this point, well, these people don't have anything to do on a Sunday. So they're like, get out of the house. We can go to church and it's free. So that's good.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: It's entertaining.
>> Matt Rogers: So what starts to happen now is the weeks are building up and, uh, people are getting quite into this. Like, we're experimenting, we're trying it out, and by time we get to the official launch. November. In November, we've already got a congregation from 4 to, like, we're up to 40. Wow.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um, so was it that they told their friends or. Or did other people just show up? Because they're like, there's movement going on.
>> Matt Rogers: Invitation, invitation, invitation. So what. So what we. We realize is, okay, you've suddenly got these. So with the. With the money, by the way, comes goals, and some of it has metrics. So it's like, in the first year, you should have a, uh, usual Sunday congregation of, say, 60 people. You should have, like, 30 people come through Alpha. Uh, you should have, like, be engaging with 30 kids and youth in a week. So that's fine. So you realize as the church leader and as your planting team, you're like, oh, my goodness, we're a bit. We've got sort of some goals to hit. You start getting a bit desperate, anxious. Yeah. So you're like, everyone you meet in the community, you're like, hey, you should try church. Do you want to come to church? So everywhere we go, we go to school, you go to church. You should try church. You should come to church. So we just get into this rhythm of invitation, of inviting everyone you meet. Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So can I just pause there for a second? Because in the US I think it's very scary for people to invite others to church. I think we've seen people who just beat it over their heads. You need to be saved. What was your invitation like? Let's say that I am someone. You show up at a restaurant or something, and I'm there sitting next to you, and. And you want to invite me to church. You're like, I need to meet those key performance indicators. What would you say? What would that conversation look like?
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, so we know each other or don't know each other. Let's say we don't. Okay. So what I'd say is it's a bit weird if you tap them on the shoulder and say, hey, you should come to church.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Exactly.
>> Matt Rogers: Um, but it's very easy to get a conversation about what you're doing and so forth. So it might be like. Let's say it's not rude to interrupt their conversation. And you might be like, I'm the new kid in town. Right. So I'm not from Grimsby originally, but there they Ah, are. And, um, let's say we're like. They give a look as if they say, hey, uh, what would you recommend on the menu? What's good to eat here? Oh, yeah, you want to have the haddock, you know. Oh, that's brilliant. Uh, oh, thanks for that. And they're like, oh, you guys visiting? I'm like, no, no, we've just moved to Grimsby. Uh, why have you moved here? I'm like, oh, do you know St. Mark's Church? Yeah, yeah, we know that. Yeah. We're relaunching. I'm the new vicar.
The first step is for people to come and encounter the love of God
All right. You guys go to church? No, we don't go to church. I said you should come along. Honestly, you'd be really welcome because everyone there is new. And, um, Matt, by the way, what's your name? You know, whatever. And suddenly, he's got a bit of rapport. So it's not, like, weird cold calling. It's going, knock, done knock. Come to church.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Can't be saved by Jesus. Tomorrow you're ready.
>> Matt Rogers: You know what? When you revitalize a church or plant a church, it's really easy to get into a conversation about what you're doing. People are interested. Without having to, like, go through the criteria of are you saved? And all of that, we articulate, uh, our vision as, um, you know, we want people to encounter the love of God, learn to live like Jesus, and go in the power of the Holy Spirit. So the first step is for them to come and encounter the love of God. Now, that might be in the restaurant. When I'm having a conversation, just speak a word over them. Or sometimes if you say you're the vicar, then they open up and they say something and kind of pray for you. But let's say they come to church, okay? They come in and they're coming home, and they meet the church family, and they get a quality welcome. So often people come in, they're like, I just feel like I've come home. Yeah, that's the presence of God. That's the Holy Spirit here in this place and in these people. So once you've had an encounter with the life of God, you don't just stay in that place. There comes a point where you have to make a choice, right? Like, will you receive, like, Christ into your life? You want that relationship. And then you start growing as a disciple of Christ. You start to live more like Jesus. And. And with that, uh, comes being empowered with the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life out there. So we move people on the journey, but it's also. It goes around in a circle. So you and I come to church on Sunday. We encounter the love of God and we express that in our worship and in the fellowship. We learn to live more like Jesus through the teachings For a small group, uh, we're filled with the Holy Spirit, we're sent out into the world and, uh, we play our part in God's mission out there and then we come back again, encountering the love of God, living like Jesus. So we're bringing people into, uh, into a flow and into a journey. So I didn't, I didn't check their details at the door. I'm just like, it's a wide front door. Okay. That doesn't. Regardless of where you're at, churchmanship wise, or whatever your beliefs are or however you interpret doctrine or the scriptures, um, I say we have a wide door and a generous orthodoxy. And, um, this is something that I think I pick up a lot within the HDB network of churches because most of the people we're reaching are probably unchurched or they're de churched, they've fallen away from church. And, uh, a lot of people have a lot of baggage, church baggage, religious baggage. And, um, a lot of people will also have views about whether they will or won't be accepted or what the church believes. So just because you have a wide front door, it doesn't just mean that you're say, liberal on everything. Hey, everyone. Everyone's welcome. Yes, but it doesn't mean just anything goes. But if people have a genuine welcome and feel like they've come home and are loved, those differences, um, aren't the be all and end all. That space becomes generous as we make room for one another and as we grow more like Jesus. The thing is, you know, I kind of know what I believe, but I'm willing to be shaped and formed. And I'm learning all the time. I'm learning from people. But it means I can also worship and pray with someone who views things very differently to me. And for me, that's where unity is just a beautiful thing. It's uniformity. Sorry, it's unity over uniformity. And I think that's one thing I see within the network. It's. There's a lot of people on a journey. Some people come to our church, right. They're not even Christians. I'm not there yet. This lady who comes, she's like, I don't believe that Jesus died. I don't get it. But I just love coming here. There's something about this place. And I'm like, the Holy Spirit's at work. And I'm okay with that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So I need to pause you there for a second because to a lot of people who are listening to this right now, even probably the first time that I mention htb, if they haven't stopped the podcast at this point, and they're still listening because they believe that there might be some learning here.
>> Matt Rogers: Um.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: The Episcopal Church in the us, incredibly progressive in so many issues. And so to a lot of people they see HCV and they're like, they can do good work, but they also seem to run over people along the way. They're a bit conservative. And mind you, you and I have spent the last little bit over a week here at Windsor together and I don't see you in this way. And even in the descriptions you just gave of the wide door, I don't see it. And I don't think I see you in that way. But what would you say to someone who came to your door and just was like, listen, I'm afraid, uh, I'm gay and I've heard these things about HTB and Alpha. I certainly the Alpha course can be very specific about that issue and its theology. Will I also feel at home here? Will I also have an opportunity to grow, to live like Jesus and be empowered by the Holy Spirit, even as a gay person? How would you respond to that?
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah, I would just say be careful not to jump to conclusions. Um, I mean, I can't comment for HDB as a church by itself, but what I do know is that HDB don't tell their churches what to believe or what stance to take. And I know that the different leaders of different HDB churches will have their own views and opinions on things.
Let's take a contentious subject in the UK, human sexuality and marriage
I think some of the words we use in church in the UK and in the us uh, probably mean different things to different people. So take the evangelical, for example. Probably means something very different in the uk, uh, to in the us. Um, what does it mean to you? So for me personally, it's about my take on evangelism, the importance of the gospel to transform lives. And it's probably expressed a bit in, ah, our worship. We've obviously got roots in all sorts of incredible movements as well. I mean, if you know much about the Wesleys and Methodism, which came out of, um, the Anglican Church originally, a strong emphasis on the gospel, on scripture, but also on experience. I mean the words has had this sort of move the spirit. So there's a sense of movement, strong emphasis on A theology of mission, being out there, living out your faith, um, but also holding to, again, I use the term lightly, traditional values. Some might say orthodox beliefs. Some people don't like that phrase being used. Some would say at the moment, holding onto the, uh, traditional teaching or current teaching of the Church of England, what I see within the network and m. My experience is we're all trying to work it out as we go along. Now, you could look at it and you could say, oh, hdb, they think this or that, but actually you're very unlikely to find a very clear statement on their view on a number of issues. A lot is just left unsaid. Part of the reason for that, I think, is because they don't want it to distract from the growth and the life that's breaking up or to act in such a way that you suddenly exclude people in the church. So, for example, I suddenly made a very clear statement on our website about our view on. Let's take a contentious subject in the UK right now, human sexuality and marriage. I would lose half my church on either side because of a very clear statement I've made. And suddenly the front doors become a lot smaller. Now, that might seem like a really weird thing because some people say you just make a decision and state where you stand on things. And, uh, that's very difficult to hold that space. And even for me personally, it's difficult to hold the space because I have got people in my congregation who are at opposite ends and a lot of people who don't know where they stand. And we're on this journey, but we're also seeing God do wonderful things. We'll get there, we'll get somewhere with that. Um, but I think people could take things like Alpha and they'll say, well, you just said just now, Alpha is quite clear on some things, but actually it's probably just the things that are unsaid. I've done Alpha I don't know how many times, 30, 35, 40 times now. And I think they don't make much mention of human sexuality or marriage. They do use an analogy of marriage between a man and a woman, but it's not a subject on Alpha, not a topic on Alpha. So, again, it can come down to how it's interpreted or a view of, oh, ah, that's what they think. Um, so let's go back for a.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Second to the scenario I place you. I come to your church. I'll say it seems like a really fun place. It seems like people are really having a good experience here, but I know you're associated with hiv. I know you yourself, uh, m. I'm a gay person.
>> Matt Rogers: I would say you're welcome in this church. I mean, I have in our congregation, we've got same sex married couples, got single people, we've got same sex sex attracted people. Um, we got a real mix. And they feel at home, they feel welcome.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Excellent.
>> Matt Rogers: Um, they're serving on team, they're finding their place, they're joining small groups and no one's been put off by this person's view or that person's. For you, there's an amazing dialogue that's starting to happen. But they feel loved. And some people, I think sometimes any of us can come with an agenda and we say, well, I want to know where they stand on this subject or this subject. And they probably find it frustrating as you might be now, where I'm not giving a dead straight answer, but it's kind of.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Because I actually think you have given a pretty good. Pretty.
>> Matt Rogers: I, I feel like.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I don't know, I'm sure I would use the word straight answer, but I think you've given a pretty direct answer as to the question that someone can come to you and be like, this is who I am. And you're like, I hope you feel loved here because we will do everything we can to make you feel loved.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. So there's certain things, you know, right now in the Church of England. So, uh, you know, I can't marry a same sex couple. We can't do that. That's not, it's not a thing, I think.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah.
>> Matt Rogers: And, um, there's an option to, at the moment starting to introduce some prayers of love and faith. Now at the moment we've got 42 churches in our local area. I can tell you the majority are like, that's fine. We can do that within our, with our church at the moment, I've said we won't do it in our church. However, I had a couple come to me saying, I would love to have, um, you know, these prayers. I said, that's brilliant. I can actually, I'll find you one of my colleagues who can do that for you and in a church to do that to enable you to do it. And some people say, oh, they'd expect me to step in and say, that's not going to happen. Uh, let me facilitate that for you without everything having to happen in the one church. Because there's also something here about collaborating with our partners again in the UK and within our diocese and our deanery, which is the smaller sort of area. We need to really work on collaborating far more together. And that means sharing our, uh, leaders, sharing our resources and our buildings. And it doesn't mean every church has to do and offer the same thing. I take a number of weddings. I mainly take weddings in other people's churches because they're prettier than our one.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um, but you get Brick Church.
>> Matt Rogers: Yeah. It, again, is about feeling, like, comfortable, helping everyone to feel comfortable, but not then getting at people if they feel like, oh, you're being mean to me, or, like, you know what? No, no, no, no. Let's just. Let's just be really generous to one another. Okay. And make space for one another. So some of it's compromised. It's like any relationship, there are compromise.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And this is where the Church of England is now, right? The big debate is about human sexuality, and that is where the church is right now, which is fine. I was just curious if somebody in that scenario, so.